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disrupter
06-18-2009, 02:52 AM
I believe forcing me, against my will, to buy medical insurance from a profiteer is unconstitutional.
It violates the fourth amendment against illegal search & seizure.

Are Clinton, Obama's health plans unconstitutional?

Not so fast on the health insurance mandates
Karl Manheim and Jamie Court | Los Angeles Times | 03.24.2008

An important element is being overlooked in the healthcare debate between the Democratic presidential candidates: Namely,

whether the plans they propose are constitutional.

The largest difference between their healthcare plans is that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton would "mandate" that everyone (with limited exceptions) purchase private health insurance. Although Sen. Barack Obama's plan also contains a mandate, it is much narrower -- it is only required for children. Obama principally relies on subsidies, economies of scale and regulation to voluntarily achieve his version of universal coverage.

Are health insurance mandates constitutional?
They are certainly unprecedented. The federal government does not ordinarily require Americans to purchase particular goods or services from private parties.

The closest we come is when government imposes a condition on the grant of a discretionary benefit or permit. For instance, in most states, you must have auto insurance to drive a car, or you are required to install fire sprinklers when building a new house.
But in such cases, the "mandate" is discretionary -- you don't have to drive a car or build a house. Nor do you have a constitutional right to do so.

But Americans do have a constitutional right to live in the United States. Accordingly, neither federal nor state governments can require you to purchase health insurance as a "condition" for residency. The Supreme Court has drawn a distinction between requirements that are flat-out imposed by government and those imposed as a condition for discretionary benefits.

The health insurance mandate proposed by Clinton is similar to the one enacted in Massachusetts under former Gov. Mitt Romney and the plan proposed by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger for California. These "unfunded mandates" are unlike any form of government regulation we've seen.

In making the case for her plan to mandate private health insurance, Clinton said in a recent Democratic debate that not doing so "would be as though Franklin Roosevelt said, 'Let's make Social Security voluntary,' or if President [Lyndon] Johnson said, 'Let's make Medicare voluntary.' "

In fact, under the law, there's a big difference between participation in a government health program funded by taxes and privatizing such a program, with individuals forced to purchase private health insurance.

Taxation involves representation, which is the case when Congress appropriates money and controls a government program for the general welfare. This describes Social Security and Medicare. But government cannot simply delegate its taxing powers to private business.

What representation do we have in the insurance firms whose products we would be required to buy, at prices and terms they set? Can we vote out an insurer's board of directors for denying claims or paying its CEO a multimillion-dollar salary? Here too the Supreme Court has drawn a distinction between taxes imposed by government and mandatory fees set by entities with private interests.

A health insurance mandate is essentially a forced contract, in which one party (the insurer) gets to set the terms. You must buy their policies, even if you prefer to self-insure, rely on alternative medicine or obtain treatment outside of the system. In constitutional terms, such mandates may

constitute a violation of due process or a "taking of property."

Requiring Person A to give money to Person B is a "taking," whether or not something of value is given in return. Let's say the state required every resident to buy milk, on the rationale that milk consumption benefits public health. That's either a constitutionally forbidden taking (of money) or a violation of due process.

These constitutional rights aren't absolute. Given a compelling enough reason, government can interfere with your person and property. It can require, for instance, that your child be vaccinated before attending public school. But there is usually an opt-out, such as private or home schooling. We are not aware of any opt-outs for most people in the mandatory health insurance plans being discussed.

There are far more sensible and constitutional ways to provide health coverage. Government-funded insurance (such as Medicare or single-payer insurance) or regulation and tax subsidies to encourage voluntary participation (as in Obama's plan) are both more efficient in containing costs and avoid the slippery slope of unconstitutional mandates.

Before the candidates get too far in their health insurance proposals, it would be good to consider the constitutional and policy implications of requiring Americans to buy private goods from private companies.

Karl Manheim is a professor of Law at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles. Jamie Court is chairman of the Santa Monica-based Consumer Watchdog. Website: Consumerwatchdog.orghttp://www.greenchange.org/article.php?id=2310

I am not a revenue stream that the US government can arbitrarily human traffic to some profiteering insurance corporation.

bluejunk44
06-18-2009, 03:32 AM
There are things I like about what dems want to do with our health care and there are things I don't like.

I think there are places for mandates, however. Sometimes a law that forces people to do something is perfectly acceptable. For example, as a parent you can't starve your child. That's immoral and illegal.

Also, consider the law that some states have regarding car insurance. You can't legally drive if you don't have it. They're forcing you to pay a private company.

With that in mind, think about the health of your fellow city and state residents. They're health status does effect you. You have to ask yourself, is it better for my fellow citizens to be healthy or unhealthy?

kres24GT
06-18-2009, 07:36 AM
It's fascism plain and simple. It's most certainly unconstitutional, but then again most of our government is. Except for saying you have to be 35 to run for president the Constitution is basically ignored now. It's not relevant in a political discussion, as it is not an obstacle to passing a political agenda. As you see with bluejunk, he doesn't care if it is unconstitutional, he only cares about forcing others to behave as he thinks they should.

kres24GT
06-18-2009, 07:37 AM
There are things I like about what dems want to do with our health care and there are things I don't like.

I think there are places for mandates, however. Sometimes a law that forces people to do something is perfectly acceptable. For example, as a parent you can't starve your child. That's immoral and illegal.

Also, consider the law that some states have regarding car insurance. You can't legally drive if you don't have it. They're forcing you to pay a private company.

With that in mind, think about the health of your fellow city and state residents. They're health status does effect you. You have to ask yourself, is it better for my fellow citizens to be healthy or unhealthy?


This is a terrifying line of thinking, that anything that someone deems "in the best interest" of everyone can be forced on everyone, even if it is unconstitutional, and people like you will support it. I say it again, scary times we are living with today's voting populace.

disrupter
06-18-2009, 09:18 AM
They can tax us for a national healthcare system,

but they can NOT sell you or me to some private vendor,

that is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

We are NOT government property. We are NOT goverment slaves to be bartered or sold, for their political gratification.

That is human trafficking. Making us indentured servants against [at least some of] our wills, which is slavery.

Obama needs to talk to Michelle about this. How embarrassing if the constitutional law professor writes a law that is UNconstitutional.

My ability to produce a revenue stream is a part of me, it is more than just my property.
That is selling a part of me in perpetuity.

An automobile is discretionary. Having a body is NOT.

kres24GT
06-18-2009, 09:20 AM
They can tax us for a national healthcare system,

but they can NOT sell you or me to some private vendor,

that is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

We are NOT government property. We are NOT goverment slaves to be bartered or sold.

My ability to produce a revenue stream is a part of me, it is more than just my property.

An automobile is discretionary. Having a body is NOT.


Per the 10th amendment the government does not have the authority to run programs like national health care or social security, those powers are relegated to the states. Any government health care plan will be unconstitutional. Doesn't matter though, the Constitution is irrelevant as I said.

disrupter
06-18-2009, 09:38 AM
If they consider that it is in the 'national interest' then it can be a function of government. It becomes incorporated in government & supportable with taxes.

And if it is a government run program it will wring all of the wicked profiteers out of it, making it much more cost effective.

If they give us another bloated mess like the Medicare drug benefit plan, authored by the same Senator Baucus, then it will be SO expensive it will bankrupt our economy.

kres24GT
06-18-2009, 10:03 AM
If they consider that it is in the 'national interest' then it can be a function of government. It becomes incorporated in government & supportable with taxes.

And if it is a government run program it will wring all of the wicked profiteers out of it, making it much more cost effective.

If they give us another bloated mess like the Medicare drug benefit plan, authored by the same Senator Baucus, then it will be SO expensive it will bankrupt our economy.


Any government run program will involve a kitty the politicians can raid. And of course it will be bloated, only the most loyal of government sheep would think anything but is possible.

disrupter
06-18-2009, 10:07 AM
and it isn't many times more bloated with all the parasitic profiteering insurance companies?

Let's be practical. Government plan, less bloat.

kres24GT
06-18-2009, 10:31 AM
and it isn't many times more bloated with all the parasitic profiteering insurance companies?

Let's be practical. Government plan, less bloat.

Yes, the current system which is loaded with government intervention, is bloated, the more government, the more bloated it will get.