AMA Opposes Obamacare

[MintJulep]

Great news. Hopefully Obamacare is DOA.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/us/politics/11health.html?_r=1

[Bill Cosby]

On behalf of the 44,000,000 americans w/ no care I hope you are wrong..

I will also hope & pray you do not need to spend any extended time in an elevator or confined cubicle w/ "those ppl".........
Who knows what curable deseses they may be passing around......:(

[Cat slave]

Great news. Hopefully Obamacare is DOA.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/us/politics/11health.html?_r=1

Dare we hope the congress is seeing the light of day?

[Cat slave]

Maybe the AMA can help them along.:D

[MintJulep]

On behalf of the 44,000,000 americans w/ no care I hope you are wrong..

I will also hope & pray you do not need to spend any extended time in an elevator or confined cubicle w/ "those ppl".........
Who knows what curable deseses they may be passing around......:(It is big that the AMA opposes this. Big.

[SeniorChief]

On behalf of the 44,000,000 americans w/ no care I hope you are wrong..

(

I am not in favor of paying YOUR healthcare, asshole.

Pay for your own - yourself.

[Independent Harry]

I am not in favor of paying YOUR healthcare, asshole.

Pay for your own - yourself.

you do pay for his healthcare you idiot. Healthcare is a system where you pay based on the population around you. If you work for a big company you are paying for your co-workers healthcare. Idiot...

[SeniorChief]

you do pay for his healthcare you idiot. Healthcare is a system where you pay based on the population around you. If you work for a big company you are paying for your co-workers healthcare. Idiot...

I am retired military, shitforbrains.
I DO NOT pay for my healthcare - nor my families... so kindly go fuck yourself.
Imbecile.

[MintJulep]

you do pay for his healthcare you idiot. Healthcare is a system where you pay based on the population around you. If you work for a big company you are paying for your co-workers healthcare. Idiot...I'd rather pay and receive quality care, than pay double that and get DMV-style, low quality healthcare.

[Bill Cosby]

I am not in favor of paying YOUR healthcare, asshole.

Pay for your own - yourself.

LOL.... No prob Cheify....... I & my family are covered...... By me not the state.........

Now I think I have been paying for your heathcare for quite a while....

YOu got any complaints????

[radioguy]

Here are some interesting quotes from the article:

While committed to the goal of affordable health insurance for all, the association had said in a general statement of principles that health services should be “provided through private markets, as they are currently.”

the American Medical Association said: “The A.M.A. does not believe that creating a public health insurance option for non-disabled individuals under age 65 is the best way to expand health insurance coverage and lower costs. The introduction of a new public plan threatens to restrict patient choice by driving out private insurers, which currently provide coverage for nearly 70 percent of Americans.”

If private insurers are pushed out of the market, the group said, “the corresponding surge in public plan participation would likely lead to an explosion of costs that would need to be absorbed by taxpayers.”

Until now, stakeholders in the health care industry have generally muted their criticism of Democratic proposals. But as details of the legislation have emerged, the criticism has become more pointed.

“Health care reform is as important to us as it is to him,” Dr. Nielsen said. “We will be engaged in discussions in a constructive way. But we absolutely oppose government control of health care decisions or mandatory physician participation in any insurance plan.”

[bluejunk44]

Which life has more value:

1. person suffering from a possibly fatal illness

or

2. person about to be burned alive in a fire


Not more urgent, but more value. If you're at all a decent person you would equally value both of those individuals.

If you have no problem with fire departments saving non-taxpayers and putting out fires in houses where the residents don't pay taxes then you shouldn't have a problem with the concept of universal health care. If you still do then at least be consistent. Call for the privatization of police and fire departments.

Please explain the difference to me between an insurance company denying treatment and a fire engine crew refusing to put a fire out because the residents don't pay taxes or pay less taxes than you.

If you need a clearer example, imagine it to be children. They don't pay taxes, yet I hear plenty of right wing opposition to fully covering all children. I guess we should just let them burn to death too since they didn't contribute monetarily.

[radioguy]

An insurance company denying a treatment, doesn't mean a person can't get that treatment.

Now here's something for you to think about...

Where is it written in the constitution that free health care is an American right? And what gives the president, the Congress or anyone the right to take peoples hard earned wages and use them to provide free health care to anyone?

When people are in need of emergency health care in America, they are treated. There aren't people dying on the streets, so don't pull that sympathy bullshit on me.

[bluejunk44]

1. It's not about sympathy. It's a simple question that all republicans dodge.

Is it or is it not OK for your tax money to fund a service that helps prevent death for individuals who do not pay taxes. If you say no then you agree fire and rescue shouldn't save people who don't pay taxes. If you say yes then you agree with the concept of universal health care (not necessarily the current bill). If you say no to medical, but yes to things like police and fire then you are a hypocrite.

Think about it. Right this very moment people are being helped by various government services funded by tax money. Those services are helping people who don't pay taxes and may not even be a legal visitor. Medical issues are just as important as crime and fires and can result in human death if not handled properly. If an illegal immigrant is severely injured and walks into an emergency room then he gets treated and I don't see any sane republican saying otherwise. Can you imagine a prominent republican politician calling for hospitals to let illegal immigrants die? In any case, those costs are passed on to everyone else just like a tax would be, except it's a lot higher than it needs to be. It's killing some hospitals budgets. Which brings to light another issue with emergency rooms. Since some people don't have insurance they skip getting some things attended to. They can't afford to, so it just gets ignored. That is, until it gets too bad and they show up at the emergency room.

And by the way some people do not get treatment for some illnesses. There are people who get denied procedures by their insurance company, can't afford to pay for it themselves, and then die years sooner than they would have otherwise. All of this after they paid that insurance company money on a regular basis for years.


2. Constitution? The constitution doesn't specifically allow a lot of things. Likewise, there are a lot of things it doesn't specifically forbid.

If it's unconstitutional for government to use tax money for medical purposes then the same goes for all the other programs besides military.

And let's not pull this "founding father's" stuff. First off, some of those guys were nuts if you bother reading the things they wrote. They did not all agree. Second, if we start living by what they thought was appropriate we're gonna have to make some major changes like taking away women's rights and reinstating slavery.

[Bill Cosby]

Where is it written in the constitution that free health care is an American right? And what gives the president, the Congress or anyone the right to take peoples hard earned wages and use them to provide free health care to anyone?
.

Note to self: COmplaining about the redistribution of wealth- If it is to assist Americans there is a loud roar, if it is to kill other ppl there is a loud silence...

[foxbaron]

LOL.... No prob Cheify....... I & my family are covered...... By me not the state.........

Now I think I have been paying for your heathcare for quite a while....

YOu got any complaints????


You have been paying for the Chief's health care through your taxes and deservedly so. He earned it by his service to this country. Something that most Americans are no longer willing to do.

Thank you Chief for your service, just try to stay away from VA hospitals, they suck.

[Bill Cosby]

You have been paying for the Chief's health care through your taxes and deservedly so. He earned it by his service to this country. Something that most Americans are no longer willing to do.

Thank you Chief for your service, just try to stay away from VA hospitals, they suck.

If him then why not others??

My taxes I am paying for healthcare for all those that work for the government. Including the ones that continually are against other Americans getting the same...........

If it was good enough for dick cheny it is good enough for the rest of us.........

[mwillman]

I am retired military, shitforbrains.
I DO NOT pay for my healthcare - nor my families... so kindly go fuck yourself.
Imbecile.


So why should we have to pay for your health care just becuase you were a swabby, fucking hypocrite.

[Bill Cosby]

There are ppl on this board w/ little or no care for themselves or their family...... & millions & millions more just like them......

If, lord forbid, something does happen they are potentially under covered or not covered @ all facing bankruptcy etc....

Now the fellas rotting in GITMO & the penitentiary got free (for them) med. SO do all those politicians........

Are we asking more than the rest of the industrialized world?? NO..

[disrupter]

The AMA opposed the formation of HMOs,

so their record of foresight is debatable to say the least.

[Bill Cosby]

Yep....... & I guess the professional manufacturers association of buggy whip makers were against the automobile............

See---->>> "We were right, over 50,000 americans die on the road...... lol

[Betty Blowtorch]

I am not in favor of paying YOUR healthcare, asshole.
Pay for your own - yourself.


I DO NOT pay for my healthcare - nor my families...
so kindly go fuck yourself.
So let me get this straight: you've spent most of your adulthood
sucking at the government tit, letting all of us taxpayers pay your
salary, your housing, your healthcare and your pension...

BUT you hate the idea of taxpayers having to pay for other
people's healthcare?

It never ceases to amaze me that some of the most fervently
anti-socialist right-wingers have spent so much of their lives
sucking at the government tit instead of working in the private
sector (like so many of us liberals do.)

[Zane]

I am retired military, shitforbrains.
I DO NOT pay for my healthcare - nor my families... so kindly go fuck yourself.
Imbecile.


So you're letting other people pay for yours? Aren't you against that sort of thing?

[MintJulep]

So let me get this straight: you've spent most of your adulthood
sucking at the government tit, letting all of us taxpayers pay your
salary, your housing, your healthcare and your pension...Anyone who puts their life on the line for this country deserves it.

And I will pay that gladly.

BUT you hate the idea of taxpayers having to pay for other
people's healthcare?Speaking for myself, I hate the idea of having my right to choose my own healthcare taken away from me. I hate the idea of doctors being forced out of private practice an into a role of a gubmint slave. I hate the idea of my doctors office and hospitals being turned into the local DMV.

instead of working in the private sector (like so many of us liberals do.)Not the base, i.e., the cult of victimology as they have a terminal case of the "gimmes".

[mwillman]

Welfare is only welfare when its not given to people like Senior Thief.

Spending is fine when they are the ones benefiting.

[MintJulep]

So you're letting other people pay for yours? Aren't you against that sort of thing?He's not a lazy bum on the streetcorner with his lips puffed up and his hand out wanting a free ride on the backs of working people.

[MintJulep]

Welfare is only welfare when its not given to people like Senior Thief.

Spending is fine when they are the ones benefiting.He was employed by the federal government and served the country. The govt provides benefits to their employees just like employers in the private sector do. The President, the post office, IRS, all have the same medical benefits -- as it should be.

My beef is with those who do not want to pay for healthcare until they get sick and spend their money on useless other "shit". Let them try to get car insurance after they have a wreck. Same principle.

[Zane]

He's not a lazy bum on the streetcorner with his lips puffed up and his hand out wanting a free ride on the backs of working people.


I never said he was. I have access to VA healthcare too, but I also have a job with excellent benefits which I pay for myself.

[MintJulep]

I never said he was. I have access to VA healthcare too, but I also have a job with excellent benefits which I pay for myself.Then I don't understand what your point is......

What is so hard to understand about someone being retired from the military and their healthcare benefits? There are no parallels between VA benefits and a single-payer, shithole healthcare system which your Messiah wants to implement.

[Zane]

Then I don't understand what your point is......

What is so hard to understand about someone being retired from the military and their healthcare benefits? There are no parallels between VA benefits and a single-payer, shithole healthcare system which your Messiah wants to implement.


Do you remember who you're talking to?

My point was, it's odd that a person who's has his health care paid for his whole career is so dead-set against a small tax increase to pay for someone else's.

[MintJulep]

Do you remember who you're talking to?

My point was, it's odd that a person who's has his health care paid for his whole career is so dead-set against a small tax increase to pay for someone else's.A "small tax increase"? Are you fucking kidding me?

Do you really think that is what opposing this "plan" is really about? And it will cost a SHITLOAD more than a "small tax increase" but my concerns lie with the concept and the end result. Put down the koolaid.

[bairdi]

Four Reasons Why the Public Health Care Option is Irrefutable
By Cenk Uygur, The Young Turks
Posted on June 12, 2009, Printed on June 14, 2009
http://www.alternet.org/story/140609/

I'm not a healthcare wonk. Of course, I want the 46 million uninsured Americans to get coverage, but they have not been my primary concern in healthcare reform (even though I have been among the uninsured many times in my life). I have to admit I'm being a bit selfish here because I mainly want to have less expensive health insurance that still gives me decent coverage.

Why? Because these healthcare costs are killing us. It significantly impacts our family's life. We're just like everyone else, getting crushed under these bills. And what drives me crazy is that after paying more than any other country in the world, we get the 37th best coverage. That's unacceptable. We need to change this system.

This is why I'm in favor of the public option. I need lower bills. Republicans are saying that the public option is unacceptable because it will be too cheap and too efficient, so private companies cannot keep up with it. Great!

Frankly, I don't give a damn what happens to private insurance companies, I just want less expensive coverage that does the same job (or better). And that's what the Republicans are telling me is going to happen.

Mitch McConnell literally said this weekend on Fox, "The private insurance people will not be able to compete with a government option." Doesn't this prove that the private insurance companies will not be able to do as good a job as the government? Then step aside, Butch.

Here are four indisputable reasons why the public option must be part of the healthcare proposal:

1. The government doesn't have to advertise. No marketing budget means less costs to pass down to the consumer.

2. The government will not take a profit. That is about 10-30% of costs wiped out immediately. Private companies by their nature will add a certain percentage to the product for their own profit. That comes directly out of our pocket. An option that doesn't take profit also doesn't take as much money from us.

3. The government will have enormous negotiating leverage with drug companies and health care providers, so they can drive down the costs to the consumer even more.

4. It is an option! If it turns out that the government option does not work as well or costs more, no problem, just use the private insurance you have now. This is only an option you have in a more competitive market. Who can argue with that?

There are legitimate concerns that progressives have with the public option. It is not single payer. The government does not pick up the tab. You still have to pay a premium and the current system is largely maintained. But I think this is better than single payer. It gives us a choice and allows the market to dictate which system works better in the healthcare industry - public or private.

If in the end, more people choose the public option, then obviously it worked. If they don't, we've lost nothing because they can still get private insurance.

Another important point to remember is that the doctors, drug companies and medical providers are still private entities. They can compete with one another for more business by producing better products or making them cheaper. The base of healthcare services is still the same. It's just how you pay for it that would change a little.

And no one is getting between you and your doctor (unless it's your current provider who won't let you go out of network). You can pick any doctor you like under the public option; you just pay him from your public insurance rather than your private insurance. And it costs less. So, where's the harm?

Well, some would argue that the costs of the public option might be more than we realize. For example, the government will cover pre-existing conditions, and that could add to the costs of the plan. No problem, if you can find a better private plan, take it! If you want to add on to the coverage the public plan gives you, do it! Nobody is stopping you from getting more or different coverage from a private insurance company.

Plus, there are even more savings that are likely from the public option because the government has proven to be more efficient in how they run healthcare insurance policies. Medicare has 2% in overhead, while the average private insurance plan has about 10-25% of their costs in overhead. That's an enormous difference. But even if you think the government can't run an enterprise as efficiently (though the evidence clearly shows otherwise), you would be hard pressed to think they couldn't at least cut costs significantly because of the first three reasons stated above.

So, given all of this, it is absolutely clear that the public option must be included in any real healthcare reform plan that comes out of Congress. Otherwise, it's a joke and the lobbyists have won again. The public option is the whole enchilada here. Politicians who talk about compromising on it have no policy ground to stand on. They are simply doing the bidding of their benefactors, large healthcare corporations who feed their campaign coffers. Don't believe any sweet talk about necessary compromises. It is a deception meant to kill the heart of the bill.

It must be the public option or bust. There will be many things to negotiate in the final bill, but this cannot be one of them. Otherwise, there will be no real reform.

[Bill Cosby]

Do you remember who you're talking to?

My point was, it's odd that a person who's has his health care paid for his whole career is so dead-set against a small tax increase to pay for someone else's.

Great point & welcome aboard................ :thumbsup:

[Bill Cosby]

Great post bairdi. THNX

We pay the most & get the least as a ppl...........

I don't get what is so hard to understand here....

WE THE RICHEST, WE THE BEST, WE THIS & WE ALL THAT........ & we got a healthcare system pre WW2...........

I will not be deterred.......

If every other capitalist, industrialized nations citizens can have it & their (less than American) politicians can find a way to give it to them there is no dam reason what so ever it cannot be done here.............. NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zane]

A "small tax increase"? Are you fucking kidding me?

Do you really think that is what opposing this "plan" is really about? And it will cost a SHITLOAD more than a "small tax increase" but my concerns lie with the concept and the end result. Put down the koolaid.


Then why are you so glad to pay for the military's health care? I can tell you from seven years' worth of experience that the military health care system is just a bigger-scale version of an HMO: sub-par & cost-conscious. And as for "kool-aid", you'll notice, if you actually read my posts, that I never said I was for or against single-payer health care. But hey, don't let that stop you from blindly opposing it just because Obama's the one that's endorsing it.

[MintJulep]

Then why are you so glad to pay for the military's health care? I can tell you from seven years' worth of experience that the military health care system is just a bigger-scale version of an HMO: sub-par & cost-conscious. And as for "kool-aid", you'll notice, if you actually read my posts, that I never said I was for or against single-payer health care. But hey, don't let that stop you from blindly opposing it just because Obama's the one that's endorsing it.What is your position then? Or are you posturing to score browning points with the Obamabot trolls who troll this site?

I oppose a government option because it will put the insurance companies out of business and the govt will completely takeover the system. I don't want the govt making my healthcare decisions and rationing services based on an actuarial table as to who will pay taxes the longest, for cost efficiency.

Why am I glad to pay the military's healthcare? Because without them we would not have the freedom we do today. You see, I don't have a problem paying for the military or those geniunely in need, however, I have a big problem picking up the tab for the lazy or those who are simply too irresponsible to prioritize and get their own health insurance.

[Zebulon0351]

What is your position then? Or are you posturing to score browing points with the Obamabot trolls who troll this site?

Why am I glad to pay the military's healthcare? Because without them we would not have the freedom we do today. You see, I don't have a problem paying for the military or those geniunely in need, however, I have a big problem picking up the tab for the lazy or those who are simply too irresponsible to prioritize and get their own health insurance.

1. I never fought for your freedom, but I do enjoy your tax dollars paying for my healthcare and my once a week purchase of my favorite green herb.

2. Your problem is you don't differentiate those "genuinely in need" and the lazy and irresponsible. Quit acting as if you have any type of heart for the poor. Just like you group all Muslims in one category, you also group all those less privileged in another.

[MintJulep]

1. I never fought for your freedom, but I do enjoy your tax dollars paying for my healthcare and my once a week purchase of my favorite green herb. Fine with me. It's the lazy bums with the "gimmes" I have a problem with.

2. Your problem is you don't differentiate those "genuinely in need" and the lazy and irresponsible. Quit acting as if you have any type of heart for the poor. Just like you group all Muslims in one category, you also group all those less privileged in another.There should be a safety net for those who are disabled, blind or are temporarily facing financial adversity. No one should make a career off subsisting off the govt teat. Any able-bodied, healthy adult should get a job and those with the means to purchase insurance should do so instead of demanding those responsible enough to do so pay for theirs also.

[bluejunk44]

a government option doesn't have to put insurance companies out of business. the bad ones will go out of business and that's good. think of all the cheap products available in the USA. almost all of them have more expensive versions. cars, clothes, fast food, etc... insurance companies will simply have to do what thousands of other companies already have to do. they will have to improve customer service and lower their prices. i'm sure the suits at the top can survive with 3 homes instead of 5 or just having 2 cars instead of one for each day of the week.

just off the top of my head i can think of many reasons why someone would choose private insurance over government even if government is cheaper. the companies will actually have to be good companies. you can't really choose now because every company can screw you over just as easily as the next and you can't do anything about it. if you can afford it at all.

if i was running an insurance company and the USA put in place a public option, i would immediately start a "quality campaign". you know the government option is going to be basic and cheap. this is where a company can step above the rest, including the public option, and stand out. i would make my service top notch in terms of customer service and health care options. my TV ads would blast this on a daily basis. that type of company and approach would most certainly profit even with a public option. many people would pay a little extra for that.

that's just one example.


By the way LadyLiberty, rush should have used your quote instead of just saying fail. that's tons more clever and not quite as divisive.

[disrupter]

A good healthcare plan is squishy & hard to balance several conflicting ideas.

Accountability by users:

If people pay, cash up front, or at least are forced to look at & think about the billing they are more likely to be prudent about how they use it.

Many insurance plans [especially employer based ones] are promoted as some kind of carte blanche, where the end user has no direct acknowledgment of actual costs.
This creates a disconnect of unaccountability. I think this is a huge problem.
Wishful consumers & lying insurers.

The medical profiteers love to take advantage of this. They can put any number of gobbledy gook charges on billings & because it is pure medicalese-speak, neither the employer provider or patient has a clue,
& when the employer is paying the users don't really care enough.
The employer is not in the medical business, they have their own business to run, so there is no way they can track down all the fraud & abuse.

[b][u]'Reasonable'[/u] services covered:[/b]

Reasonable is something we need to get some better, much more rational definition of.

Most insurers want people to blindly sign on the dotted line & gloss over what they do & do not cover. The more ga-ga & misled the consumers are the more they can rip them off.

Insurers pay people to deny people coverage & benefits, & these are the 'insured' people who diligently pay monthly premiums.
In fact it is reported that insurers are hiring more people to deny benefits & providing less services, which is why over recent years their profits have soared.

Now we have to ask ourselves the truly tough questions. What is or are 'reasonable services'. We have to draw some lines if we are going talk sanely.
This is a subject that needs both medical expertise [not including profiteerers] as well as cogent budgeteers, & reasonable consumers.

this leads naturally to the next question,

Do we include some premium(s) for
[b]personal accountability?[/b]

If we engage in statistically proven unhealthy behaviors should those people have to pay more? With some consumable things like alcohol, cigarettes & perhaps non-nutritious food we can tax them.
But what about people who just do reckless things? People who repeatedly engage in dangerous stunts?
I hope we don't get moralistic here, because that isn't rational or useful, but we do have to be practical. Things that lead to more medical expenses should be engineered [as best as is possible] to pay for themselves where possible.

This direction leads to
[b]Preventative Medicine:[/b]

Education, personal & collective responsibility should be our shared first step if we are all in this together.

One problem with the current system is people with mitigable conditions like diabetes find they may not be able to afford medications so they don't take them, then get sick & are forced into emergency room situations that are the most expensive kind.
So having a dependable system in place will help prevent some more costly &/or tragic things to occur.

[b]Collective bargaining[/b] for controlling costs:

This the US government has done everything in its power to not only run away from, but to insure inflating costs.
Baucus helped write a drug benefit bill that specifically outlawed collective bargaining to keep drug costs down.
They disallowed importation of drugs from Canada based on the LIE of safety, while they allowed drug companies to import toxic heparin from China that killed people.
Our government has really sold us out on this one.

The Medical Murder Mafia has a death grip on most of congress & probably the prez too.

[b]Mandates?:[/b]

This is a point of gun/law requirement that we citizens do something.
If this forces us to pay money to Medical Murder Profiteers is simply slavery.
Your government has sold you, for campaign money, to Medical Mafia Slave Masters.

While i understand there may be a rational argument for burden sharing,
this is usually made by the same consumers who have irresponsibly never held their insurers or themselves to any kind of accountability. They want to blame someone else & never face facts that they are complicit in this themselves. One for not scrutinizing costs & for having too fantastic a notions about what should & more importantly should not be covered by a policy.

I can only see a mandate as a shared responsibility IF there is a non-profit, reasonably run, public option.

Otherwise it is slavery to gangsters, the law of the jungle & i WILL fight it with a gun if necessary.

[b]Fairness:[/b]

How fair is it to force one group of poor people to share the burden of a 'mandate' & yet another group of poor people, namely illegals, do not share this burden? It is afterall the US government's failure to keep its promise of the 1986 Simpson act to guard our borders against illegal incursion that has allowed 12 to 20 million people to enter illegally.

This is a complicity between criminal employers [who the corrupt congress is embedded with, not excluding all the elites who want cheap housekeepers & nannys] & illegals.

[b]Criminal employers EXPLICITLY want illegals, precisely because they are
[u]legally crippled[/u] & can be ruthlessly abused.[/b]

This is why all the bleeding heart stupidity about blanket amnesty is a FALSE argument & self defeating.
The very DAY you legalize illegals is the very day they will be fired, so CRIMINAL employers can find someone else who IS legally crippled, because these people no longer will be.
People make other people. There will virtually always be a potential tidal wave more of them.

People who want to live in a law abiding society should logically be expected to themselves obey laws. This should be required of people at the top & bottom, but sadly it is mostly the people in the middle who are nailed to this cross.

[bluejunk44]

Those are a few things I support. Whether it's private or public, a person choosing to live unhealthy should pay more and someone choosing to be more healthy should pay less.

If you choose to be overweight, smoke, or engage in extremely dangerous activities then you should not pay the same as everyone else.

Lose 35 pounds? Great, you just subtracted 10-20% of your health plan bill. So on and so on...

That could go for taking advantage of other preventative measures as well. Give people serious incentive to live healthy and the total cost of care for everyone will go down.

[disrupter]

Insurers want to cherrypick a bunch of young healthy people who are very unlikely to get sick so they can soak them for profits,

While doing everything possible to exclude someone who is likely to need care.

Health insurers are the lowest form of profiteers around,

but people's brains glaze over & go ga-ga, because the word medicine, health & doctors are used.

These are gangsters who will & DO gladly kill & torture people for profit.

They are just evil parasites.

[MintJulep]

Iman Obama is on TV lying through his fucking teeth to the AMA.

Fortunately, they're not dumb enough to buy it like his sheeplet worshippers.

[MintJulep]

zZ-6ebku3_E

[MintJulep]

This is one lying, teleprompting son of a bitch.

You know, if he were proposing something like even mandated coverage for everyone, I could support it. This lying POS wants to eliminate private insurace and force everyone to have shithole, dirty-walled, understaffed, overpriced healthcare. Damn this makes me so angry. I really can't stand this POS.

[Mason66]

This is one lying, teleprompting son of a bitch.

You know, if he were proposing something like even mandated coverage for everyone, I could support it. This lying POS wants to eliminate private insurace and force everyone to have shithole, dirty-walled, understaffed, overpriced healthcare. Damn this makes me so angry. I really can't stand this POS.

His voice is starting to grind on my nerves.

I have to keep the mute button close to me. To many Uh-Uhs

[Hog Trash]

On behalf of the 44,000,000 americans w/ no care I hope you are wrong..

I will also hope & pray you do not need to spend any extended time in an elevator or confined cubicle w/ "those ppl".........
Who knows what curable deseses they may be passing around......:(Socialised healthcare is not the answer....There was never a time when I was without healthcare that I believed it was someone else's responsibility to provide it for me.

If it is your dream of a socialist America, then it is my opinion that if it ever does come about here it will be overthrown by revolution and the people responsible will be executed for treason.

This is not some third world, latin american shithole filled with weak helpless dependent people....You underestimate the European Americans who built this nation and industrialized the world.

Socialism is an indication of weakness and dependence of which the European American people will not except for very long.

Other Americans have underestimated these peaceful and tolerant people who it would be a mistake to dismiss as weaklings...It would be very dangerous to provoke them.

They are workers and producers who will not tolerate freeloaders for very long before they eventually reach their tipping point...To keep pushing them is very dangerous my little marxist friend.

[Zane]

What is your position then? Or are you posturing to score browning points with the Obamabot trolls who troll this site?

I oppose a government option because it will put the insurance companies out of business and the govt will completely takeover the system. I don't want the govt making my healthcare decisions and rationing services based on an actuarial table as to who will pay taxes the longest, for cost efficiency.

Why am I glad to pay the military's healthcare? Because without them we would not have the freedom we do today. You see, I don't have a problem paying for the military or those geniunely in need, however, I have a big problem picking up the tab for the lazy or those who are simply too irresponsible to prioritize and get their own health insurance.


You can't ask a simple question of someone you've always gotten along with without tacking on a snide remark? What the hell happened to you?

My position is this: there are people out there that, for whatever reason, are not able to get in a position to get good health care. There are pre-existing conditions that not only disqualify some from even getting jobs, but also exempt them from getting health insurance. Honestly, my thoughts aren't all that different from yours, regarding the unfortunate/lazy ratio, but even if a single-payer plan gets approved, it's not gonna turn us into the Soviet Union, regardless of how much you dislike the people proposing the idea.

[bluejunk44]

Every person deserves certain things regardless of what type of person they are. Doesn't matter if they are nice or assholes. Doesn't matter if they work hard or are lazy. Doesn't matter if they're stupid or smart.

They deserve to be saved from a burning building by our socialized fire & rescue. They deserve to be protected by our socialized police force. They deserve to be protected by our socialized military. They deserve the clean water from our socialized water & sewage treatment plants. They deserve to be taken care of medically. Even if we don't socialize our medical care, it needs drastic changes steering it away from a being a big profit business.

All of those local and national government programs that are funded by tax payer money help people who pay taxes and those who don't. They help people who aren't even citizens or legal visitors. The day a politician gets up and claims that anyone not paying taxes should be denied clean water, safe highways, or that they should die in a building fire is the day his career is over. Both sides would agree that those notions are ridiculous.

But when the same standard of human life is placed to medical issues we somehow magically visit the land of absurd, where statements in any other context would end a career, become acceptable.

Please explain to me why a person is worth less because they may die from medical illness compared to someone who may die from a fire.

[MintJulep]

You can't ask a simple question of someone you've always gotten along with without tacking on a snide remark? What the hell happened to you?You ridiculously equated military health benefits with a socialized "free" system covering 350 million people. I figured you were posturing for the trolls who troll this site.

And yes, I know all about the thread and links here.

My position is this: there are people out there that, for whatever reason, are not able to get in a position to get good health care.If they are unemployed and have a preexisting condition, no. Those in a certain income bracket are already qualified for subsidized care, however, the forms for it do not fill themselves out. That said, no one is ever denied medical care in this country, and we already pay for those in premiums and high medical costs. As bad as that is, at least we preserve quality.

There are pre-existing conditions that not only disqualify some from even getting jobsCompletely false. An employer does not have access to a potential employee's health history as this is HIPAA protected information, nor are they supposed to discriminate for a visible condition. There is something called the ADA, Americans w/Disabilities act.

but also exempt them from getting health insurance.Only if they apply for an individual, medically underwritten plan and have preexisting conditions. That is the beauty of group insurance. No one or their dependents can ever be denied.

Honestly, my thoughts aren't all that different from yours, regarding the unfortunate/lazy ratio, but even if a single-payer plan gets approved, it's not gonna turn us into the Soviet Union, regardless of how much you dislike the people proposing the idea.With the physician shortage already in this country, it will lead to healthcare rationing, overpriced, low quality care, long lines and wait and family doctors becoming obsolete. Think DMV.

As I said, even if he were proposing mandatory insurance, I could support that as I agree our healthcare needs reform. What he is doing is fearmongering like he did with the "stimulus" package and lying to the public, trying to position the insurance companies to go out of business and lead to a govt shithole. Those are his intentions, I can see it and I resent like hell being lied to. Everyone in this country is not a koolaid drinking sheep and this TOTUS is proving to be more divisive than Bush ever was.

[MintJulep]

....There was never a time when I was without healthcare that I believed it was someone else's responsibility to provide it for me.
.And that is the difference between a a responsible person and a lazy bum who was raised to believe they are "entitled" to the fruits of someone else's labor.

[Bill Cosby]

Socialised healthcare is not the answer....There was never a time when I was without healthcare that I believed it was someone else's responsibility to provide it for me.

.

Good for you..... :thumbsup:

Had you been in the military or prison you would have gotten it if you liked it or not...........

It is not about someone providing for me. Giving me this or that.........

I am already paying for it................ They aint giving me shit...........

I want my monies worth here..............

The rest of the industrialized world gets a better return on their tax money...

My taxes go to put bases around the world & carry on two wars half way around the world............

They pay more?? Not sure after all is said & done that they do but they do get a helllVa lot more back for it.............

By the way you & anyone else can certainly exercise your freedumb to refuse whatever care may be offered down the road..........

[Hog Trash]

Good for you..... :thumbsup:

Had you been in the military or prison you would have gotten it if you liked it or not...........

It is not about someone providing for me. Giving me this or that.........

I am already paying for it................ They aint giving me shit...........

I want my monies worth here..............

The rest of the industrialized world gets a better return on their tax money...

My taxes go to put bases around the world & carry on two wars half way around the world............

They pay more?? Not sure after all is said & done that they do but they do get a helllVa lot more back for it.............

By the way you & anyone else can certainly exercise your freedumb to refuse whatever care may be offered down the road..........And if I am able to "refuse whatever care may be offered down the road" will that also mean I won't be responsible for paying somebody elses medical bills???

No I am not a greedy, selfish, uncharitable person, it's just that I prefer the government not middleman my contributions.

Government is much too unreliable, inefficient, wasteful and corrupt for such responsibilities.

[bluejunk44]

If you're gonna take the stand that it's wrong for you to pay to help other people then you need to be consistent.

You must also oppose other government programs and services that use your tax money to help people.

[kres24GT]

If you're gonna take the stand that it's wrong for you to pay to help other people then you need to be consistent.

You must also oppose other government programs and services that use your tax money to help people.


Another fascists who doesn't get the difference between doing something by choice and force.

[bluejunk44]

you still didn't address the issue. answer this:

Is it wrong for your tax money to be used to help other people? They can be taxpayers, non-taxpayers, legal visitors, or even illegal visitors.

Is it wrong or is it OK for government programs to use tax money to help them?


You talk about choice. Do you then support the option for people to choose not to pay taxes to support those programs that help people?

[kres24GT]

you still didn't address the issue. answer this:

Is it wrong for your tax money to be used to help other people? They can be taxpayers, non-taxpayers, legal visitors, or even illegal visitors.

Is it wrong or is it OK for government programs to use tax money to help them?


You talk about choice. Do you then support the option for people to choose not to pay taxes to support those programs that help people?

Can you read, of course.

[Hog Trash]

If you're gonna take the stand that it's wrong for you to pay to help other people then you need to be consistent.

You must also oppose other government programs and services that use your tax money to help people.I can't answer that unless you provide some examples of programs you are referring to?....I use common good as a litmus test.

It's not as cut and dry as you may think...I have heard liberals claim fire, police, highways and schools as examples.

I am opposed to the federal government collecting taxes for pretty much anything other than their constitutionally specified responsibilities.

Other than that I believe all taxes should be collected on local 1st and state 2nd, levels for public common good or emergency services.

Local politicians can be better monitered and controled by their constituency and smaller amounts of money are more easily tracked for waste and corruption.

[bluejunk44]

that's where I fail to join conservatives

to me, a life is just as important when its threatened by a medical issue as when it's threatened by fire, crime, or foreign attacks. a person's well being is just as important if the problem is an illness or smoke inhalation.

i believe the health of our citizens is part of the common good. if it weren't, then it would be ok if everyone was sick. the healthier your neighbor is the better off you're gonna be.

to clarify my position, I don't believe we should just tax the hell out of everyone and then hand out health care. i'm not dead set on having a public option either. after all, some other nations with better health care than us don't have a public option, but conservatives would label it as socialism anyhow. but i'm certain we could have a public option and it would work out just fine. i just won't weep tears of blood if we don't get one.

the biggest problem I see with our health care is that it's a big profit industry. that needs to change most of all. costs will never be under control if it continues. it doesn't matter what politicians do.

[kres24GT]

that's where I fail to join conservatives

to me, a life is just as important when its threatened by a medical issue as when it's threatened by fire, crime, or foreign attacks. a person's well being is just as important if the problem is an illness or smoke inhalation.

i believe the health of our citizens is part of the common good. if it weren't, then it would be ok if everyone was sick. the healthier your neighbor is the better off you're gonna be.

to clarify my position, I don't believe we should just tax the hell out of everyone and then hand out health care. i'm not dead set on having a public option either. after all, some other nations with better health care than us don't have a public option, but conservatives would label it as socialism anyhow. but i'm certain we could have a public option and it would work out just fine. i just won't weep tears of blood if we don't get one.

the biggest problem I see with our health care is that it's a big profit industry. that needs to change most of all. costs will never be under control if it continues. it doesn't matter what politicians do.

It would certainly help your fascist state goal, government mandated diets and the like would be sure to come out of a plan like this.

The biggest problem with our health care is government involvement.

[Hog Trash]

It would certainly help your fascist state goal, government mandated diets and the like would be sure to come out of a plan like this.

The biggest problem with our health care is government involvement.I concur doctor! :thumbsup:

[MintJulep]

that's where I fail to join conservatives

to me, a life is just as important when its threatened by a medical issue as when it's threatened by fire, crime, or foreign attacks. a person's well being is just as important if the problem is an illness or smoke inhalation.

i believe the health of our citizens is part of the common good. if it weren't, then it would be ok if everyone was sick. the healthier your neighbor is the better off you're gonna be.

to clarify my position, I don't believe we should just tax the hell out of everyone and then hand out health care. i'm not dead set on having a public option either. after all, some other nations with better health care than us don't have a public option, but conservatives would label it as socialism anyhow. but i'm certain we could have a public option and it would work out just fine. i just won't weep tears of blood if we don't get one.

the biggest problem I see with our health care is that it's a big profit industry. that needs to change most of all. costs will never be under control if it continues. it doesn't matter what politicians do.The primary function of the federal govt is to protect the citizens from harm, not provide heathcare, food, water, babysitters and a college education. People have to eat in order to sustain life, but food and water are not Constitutional rights.

When your car needs gasoline, an oil change, or new tires do you file a claim with your car insurance company to cover costs? Do you pay ‘food insurance’ and when you make your weekly trip to the supermarket file a claim to cover the expense of groceries needed to sustain your life?

If not, then why do you expect an insurance company (or the government) to pay for normal, routine doctor visits?

Insurance is for catastrophic events, and is there as a safety net for major, unexpected events, much like your car insurance. It’s not a magical program to take care of your every hangnail, headache, toothache, or sneeze.

Like your groceries, or gasoline, routine health care should be an expense of daily living and not some Nanny-state, government entitlement program.

[kres24GT]

In bluejunk's world, you are forced to eat healthy because good health is a mandate. Scary times.

[Bill Cosby]

And if I am able to "refuse whatever care may be offered down the road" will that also mean I won't be responsible for paying somebody elses medical bills???

No I am not a greedy, selfish, uncharitable person, it's just that I prefer the government not middleman my contributions.

Government is much too unreliable, inefficient, wasteful and corrupt for such responsibilities.

You/we are likely gonna pay one way or the other...

They middleman or some insurance company or someone else. They are most likely gonna get care, & most likely we are gonna pay for it...

The gov does not do everything bad......... Fire, forset fires, sewer etc...

What I am hoping for is a reallocation of the money they all ready take......

From military to civilian purposes.............

[kres24GT]

You/we are likely gonna pay one way or the other...

They middleman or some insurance company or someone else. They are most likely gonna get care, & most likely we are gonna pay for it...

The gov does not do everything bad......... Fire, forset fires, sewer etc...

What I am hoping for is a reallocation of the money they all ready take......

From military to civilian purposes.............


You realize the kitty will be raided for vote buying programs and other pork, correct?

[Hog Trash]

You/we are likely gonna pay one way or the other...

They middleman or some insurance company or someone else. They are most likely gonna get care, & most likely we are gonna pay for it...

The gov does not do everything bad......... Fire, forset fires, sewer etc...

What I am hoping for is a reallocation of the money they all ready take......

From military to civilian purposes.............A federally funded military is absolutely necessary....The problem lies in waste and political/corporate corruption.

This is the danger with all federal programs....The more responsibilities they are given the more money they control.

The more money they control the harder it is to monitor....This creates an atmosphere ripe for theft, abuse and corruption.

Any money saved from military waste and corruption should not be averted to other government programs....It should be returned to the people who earned it.

The United states of America is a republic, not a socialist system of government....It was never intended to be anything but what it is.

America's unique constitutional republic is what's responsible for it's strength, prosperity and greatness....It is the reason people desire to come here and become a part of it.

[Bill Cosby]

You realize the kitty will be raided for vote buying programs and other pork, correct?

& how is that any different???

That is how the game is played.........

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TA9ZFMoBZMQ/SUBSDdxx-MI/AAAAAAAACfA/pCYDwr-0avA/s400/Blagojevich.jpg

[Bill Cosby]

A federally funded military is absolutely necessary....The problem lies in waste and political/corporate corruption.

This is the danger with all federal programs....The more responsibilities they are given the more money they control.

The more money they control the harder it is to monitor....This creates an atmosphere ripe for theft, abuse and corruption.

Any money saved from military waste and corruption should not be averted to other government programs....It should be returned to the people who earned it.

The United states of America is a republic, not a socialist system of government....It was never intended to be anything but what it is.

America's unique constitutional republic is what's responsible for it's strength, prosperity and greatness....It is the reason people desire to come here and become a part of it.

federally funded military is absolutely necessary...

It is not nessary to blanket the globe in bases......

This is the danger with all federal programs....The more responsibilities they are given the more money they control.

I will take my chances w/ the rest of the civilized western world. There is a danger w/ the feds & we know there is one w/ the insurance companies...

America's unique constitutional republic is what's responsible for it's strength, prosperity and greatness....It is the reason people desire to come here and become a part of it

I think that has nothing to do w/ it... You are being sentimental & a bit naive... After the rest of the world burned out after WW2 we got to the top...

Ppl wanna come here for various reasons mostly to do w/ money... Not idealism..........

[Hog Trash]

It is not nessary to blanket the globe in bases......I agree and as I stated, there is way too much waste and corruption with military spending.

A well trained, armed and prepared military is solely for the self-defense of America, not aggression.I will take my chances w/ the rest of the civilized western world. There is a danger w/ the feds & we know there is one w/ the insurance companies...The free market is a thousand times preferable to government controlled anything.

If you have a problem with your insurance company, switch....Good old fashion capitalist compitition is the best price and quality control there is.

When you have no options you must accept what you are given with no control over the service or products you recieve....Say no to government healthcare.I think that has nothing to do w/ it... You are being sentimental & a bit naive... After the rest of the world burned out after WW2 we got to the top...Ha Ha Ha!....Now that's funny....I am anything but "sentimental & a bit naive".

I am not a liberal....I think with my head, not my emotions....You are calling the kettle black, mister pot.Ppl wanna come here for various reasons mostly to do w/ money... Not idealism..........The majority come here for three reasons......Freedom, prosperity and security.

These three things were made possible by our unique governing system, which was definately not socialism.

[Bill Cosby]

The free market is a thousand times preferable to government controlled anything.

Free market postal system.

Free market fire department

Free market sewer system.......

Free market food saftey system.... No meat or peanut factor inspections. No resturant health inspections.........

Let the military & ppl in jail secure their own care........... & the folks in the gov to..........

Farm out the cia perhaps & military???

The gov- which is supposedly of us for us, has some uses & can do somethings (not all) better...........

Look what the self regulating MF on wall street got us........

Restaurants, grocery stores, meat packers, peanut factories etc.. Like wall street should have the heavy hand of regulations off their poor backs...

These folks can self regulate. They know what is best, their own self interest will dictate they do the right things & we will benefit.........

These are not things governments should be involved in..... Caveat emptor...

Personally I would love to have the option to patronize businesses that openly post "no heath inspections here", only the finest "UNinspected meats sold here", "Freely manufactured as we saw fit"..

[Binky]

You realize the kitty will be raided for vote buying programs and other pork, correct?


Yeppers! As with all funding programs, they are robbed from Peter to pay Paul and then Peter never gets it back. :banghead:

[Hog Trash]

Free market postal system.

Free market fire department

Free market sewer system.......

Free market food saftey system.... No meat or peanut factor inspections. No resturant health inspections.........

Let the military & ppl in jail secure their own care........... & the folks in the gov to..........

Farm out the cia perhaps & military???

The gov- which is supposedly of us for us, has some uses & can do somethings (not all) better...........

Look what the self regulating MF on wall street got us........LOL!....Oh please, give me a break.

[kres24GT]

& how is that any different???

That is how the game is played.........

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TA9ZFMoBZMQ/SUBSDdxx-MI/AAAAAAAACfA/pCYDwr-0avA/s400/Blagojevich.jpg

It's not any different, exactly why your plan is terrifying. Like Social Security, the rules will have to change, over 70, no care (we spent the money). Less than a 70% chance of survival, no surgery (sorry, we spent the money), etc, etc. Being forced by police power to pay into such a system, wow, amazing anyone can support it, of course we already do, Social Security is the same thing. Amazing the cut in quality, and the overall corruption Americans will allow to simply be free from being responsible for themselves.

[kres24GT]

Free market fire departments, these exist in some places and work fine.

Free market sewer system, I don't know enough about this, but if you can show me a way to make one, I am all for it. I am definitely for saying if you don't have indoor plumbing you shouldn't pay taxes than fund the sewers. Imagine the government telling you that you must have indoor plumbing.

Free market food and safety inspection. Would love it, would much rather have this than a corrupt government monopoly inspecting things.

Police and military, same as sewers, give me plans for how these would work and I will be the first to sign off on them.


Government is necessary evil and should always be the last resort, instead it's always our first solution. The idea "we need government to do this for us" is one that has been brainwashed into the brains of millions of Americans.

[Hog Trash]

Free market fire departments, these exist in some places and work fine.

Free market sewer system, I don't know enough about this, but if you can show me a way to make one, I am all for it. I am definitely for saying if you don't have indoor plumbing you shouldn't pay taxes than fund the sewers. Imagine the government telling you that you must have indoor plumbing. Zoning!?!?!?

Free market food and safety inspection. Would love it, would much rather have this than a corrupt government monopoly inspecting things.

Police and military, same as sewers, give me plans for how these would work and I will be the first to sign off on them.


Government is necessary evil and should always be the last resort, instead it's always our first solution. The idea "we need government to do this for us" is one that has been brainwashed into the brains of millions of Americans.I agree....So many people are so accustomed to big government you could never convince them that too much is bad....They have become dependent.

[kres24GT]

Zoning!?!?!?

I agree....So many people are so accustomed to big government you could never convince them that too much is bad....They have become dependent.


Not taking about zoning, in his fascist world, everyone is required to have indoor plumbing, regardless of zoning. I am against zoning as well though.

[Bill Cosby]

It's not any different, exactly why your plan is terrifying.

Terrifying..... (Drama queen smiley here):lmao2:

My plan??? :talktothehand:

What plan is that exactly??:hi:

Jesus could lay out a plan & you ppl would cry............... You would find some reason, some excuse, some fault....

The rest of the civilized world somehow was able to move beyond their terror....

They overcame their fear.............. ya'll should/could to...........

[kres24GT]

Terrifying..... (Drama queen smiley here):lmao2:

My plan??? :talktothehand:

What plan is that exactly??:hi:

Jesus could lay out a plan & you ppl would cry............... You would find some reason, some excuse, some fault....

The rest of the civilized world somehow was able to move beyond their terror....

They overcame their fear.............. ya'll should/could to...........


I agree, if Jesus laid out a plan that involved anything other than less government, I would complain. I don't give a shit about Jesus.

[bluejunk44]

I haven't seen the republican leaders put out a viable health care plan that would actually garner enough support. Unfortunately, when I turn on the TV or radio I mostly hear them attacking the democrat's plans.

I don't think they have real answers. They're too scared of stepping on the toes of the industry. Same could be said for some dems too. They need to quit being so wimpy.

[kres24GT]

I haven't seen the republican leaders put out a viable health care plan that would actually garner enough support. Unfortunately, when I turn on the TV or radio I mostly hear them attacking the democrat's plans.

I don't think they have real answers. They're too scared of stepping on the toes of the industry. Same could be said for some dems too. They need to quit being so wimpy.


Both have plans, more government, more profits for the industry, more screwing the middle class to pay for the poor and make the rich richer.

[Hog Trash]

Terrifying..... (Drama queen smiley here):lmao2:

My plan??? :talktothehand:

What plan is that exactly??:hi:

Jesus could lay out a plan & you ppl would cry............... You would find some reason, some excuse, some fault....

The rest of the civilized world somehow was able to move beyond their terror....

They overcame their fear.............. ya'll should/could to...........Irrational fear is paranoia.

Rational fear is a survival tool.

[Bill Cosby]

Irrational fear is paranoia.

Rational fear is a survival tool.

This fear is irrational... One need only look @ every other industrialized nation on earth........ The sky never fell....... Go figure...:disbelief:

[Bill Cosby]

I agree, if Jesus laid out a plan that involved anything other than less government, I would complain. I don't give a shit about Jesus.

It is a figure of speech & I don't GAF what you think of him or anyone else...

You are, as you said gonna cry & bitch no matter what....... You seem to be good @ it...............

[Hog Trash]

This fear is irrational... One need only look @ every other industrialized nation on earth........ The sky never fell....... Go figure...:disbelief:OK, I looked and my fears have been confirmed....I do not want government in charge of health care in America.

As I have said, government is much too ineficient, wasteful, corrupt and hobbled by red tape and beaurocracy to be reliable in such matters.