You people condone this sick shit!!???

[Life_Long_Dem!]

warning some photos are on the graphic side!

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-29/torture-photos-depict-sex-rape/#gallery=298;page=10

the sick fucks who did this to these people need to have the same shit done to them just for starters.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-29/torture-photos-depict-sex-rape/

full story

[radioguy]

Old news... The soldiers that were responsible for that shit have already been prosecuted.

Nobody condones that pal.

[Zebulon0351]

Old news... The soldiers that were responsible for that shit have already been prosecuted.

Nobody condones that pal.

But the Generals in charge of them were not, even though they knew about it.

[radioguy]

BTW... Will there ever come a time when you libs will stop glorifying shit like this? Or will your hatred for Bush linger on for the rest of your sad, sad lives?

I hope a day comes when your love for America, becomes a greater priority to you people then your hatred for Bush. I'm not holding my breath though.

[Mason66]

warning some photos are on the graphic side!

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-29/torture-photos-depict-sex-rape/#gallery=298;page=10

the sick fucks who did this to these people need to have the same shit done to them just for starters.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-29/torture-photos-depict-sex-rape/

full story

So you think the people that did this should be tortured but terrorists that cut off innocent peoples heads shouldn't be watreboarded?

Seems that you agree with torture just not on terrorists.

[Life_Long_Dem!]

it might be old news but those photos are within a NEW story coming out about the photos that Obama wont let released that show horrible rapes and other elements of sexual degrading torture....photos which the cia is ordering obama NOT to release, from what I hear this goes back to a 2003 law under Bush stating that photos and documents involved in lawsuits must not be released to the public. And btw I cant speak for all on here but my hatred is not just for Bush but ALL neoconservatives under the Bush regime that turned this country into the ass backwards, torture loving, bigoted narrowminded warhawk nation we are now...and ll7 you ARE a racist pure and simple, the term "raghead " which you have used is a digusting racist term for muslims.

[MintJulep]

BTW... Will there ever come a time when you libs will stop glorifying shit like this? Or will your hatred for Bush linger on for the rest of your sad, sad lives?

I hope a day comes when your love for America, becomes a greater priority to you people then your hatred for Bush. I'm not holding my breath though.No. Never. Ever. It's a chronic condition.

[MintJulep]

it might be old news but those photos are within a NEW story coming out about the photos that Obama wont let released that show horrible rapes and other elements of sexual degrading torture....photos which the cia is ordering obama NOT to release, from what I hear this goes back to a 2003 law under Bush stating that photos and documents involved in lawsuits must not be released to the public.How do you know what's in the pictures if they haven't been released?

...and ll7 you ARE a racist pure and simple, the term "raghead " which you have used is a digusting racist term for muslims.Nothing racist about it unless the rag on the head is present at birth. Try another shut up tactic, race baiter. That card is in tatters and useless now.

[SeniorChief]

it might be old news but those photos are within a NEW story coming out about the photos that Obama wont let released that show horrible rapes and other elements of sexual degrading torture....photos which the cia is ordering obama NOT to release, from what I hear this goes back to a 2003 law under Bush stating that photos and documents involved in lawsuits must not be released to the public. And btw I cant speak for all on here but my hatred is not just for Bush but ALL neoconservatives under the Bush regime that turned this country into the ass backwards, torture loving, bigoted narrowminded warhawk nation we are now...and ll7 you ARE a racist pure and simple, the term "raghead " which you have used is a digusting racist term for muslims.

Suggestion - ENLIST, asshole. Your "Armchair Warrioring" is admirable, but perhaps you would do better in the field, with the enemy.

Get packing.

Dickless......

[mwillman]

SC

if you back the troops then why do you condone the fact that Rumsfeld and Cheney gave them the go ahead to do all that crap in Abu Grab then punished them for doing it. Seems like they screwed over the troops in order to save their own asses.

[Mr. Blue]

Who condones it?

Abu Ghraib was wrong, but in the same breath, this is what happens at times, it happens in American Jails, it happens in foreign prisons, it happens all over the place.

The thing is do we condemn everyone in the military for the actions of a few? Do we demonize every action we take now because of what happened at Abu Ghraib?

Also, as a country we tend to obsess over the fact that we're on such a high standard that we can never make mistakes and when we do make mistakes we must endlessly condemn the action and paint everything with that brush.

Shit happens. Some people are criminal, murders, rapists, etc, etc, etc. There comes a point though that you have to turn the page on the incident and move on.

[radioguy]

SC

if you back the troops then why do you condone the fact that Rumsfeld and Cheney gave them the go ahead to do all that crap in Abu Grab then punished them for doing it. Seems like they screwed over the troops in order to save their own asses.

Prove it.

Oh, nevermind... You never prove anything. You just make shit up as you go.

.

[mwillman]

Prove what that Rumsfeld and Cheney supported Torture.
Is that what your asking me?

HaHaHa

You really are pathetic. What we need is a truth commission and if
cheney and rumsfeld are found to have allowed it they should be put in Jail.

[radioguy]

You said:

"Rumsfeld and Cheney gave them the go ahead to do all that crap in Abu Grab..."

How about you prove it... But of course, we all know you can't because it isn't true.

You are a pathetic liberal liar mwillman.

.

[Smurf-Herder]

I told you all before, Abu Ghraib was the brainchild of two intelligence contractors working through CACI, for the CIA; along with overly-eager under-trained MPs and a commanding officer who didn't want to make waves. Everybody pushed for "results", without providing any credible oversight. At worst, they are responsible for utter negligence at the top.

[Bill Cosby]

warning some photos are on the graphic side!

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-29/torture-photos-depict-sex-rape/#gallery=298;page=10

the sick fucks who did this to these people need to have the same shit done to them just for starters.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-29/torture-photos-depict-sex-rape/

full story


Very, very sick.......

I would not consider doing unto others as they have done........ Two wrongs are not gonna make it right......

I understand your outrage & I am pretty sure everyone here feels this is totally wrong....

I don't think anyone is/would be defending this kinda brutality........

I must say I still find it amazing that anyone in the USA or Canada or any part of western civilization would condone any kinda torture, if for no other reason that it not be done to our ppl.........

[mwillman]

Do you people even have a fucking clue.

You really should pay attention to what officers involved had to say.

Here is what General Karpinski the former head of the U.S. prison system in Iraq had to say,

http://www.scvhistory.com/scvhistory/signal/iraq/sg070204.htm

[MintJulep]

The country is going down the tubes thanks to a chicken-necked, teleprompter and you want to divert the discussion to some "panty-head" torture bullshit that happened years ago. Those involved have already been tried and sentenced. Time to move on.......

[radioguy]

First, the General said that Rumsfield approved of the same methods of interrogation used at GITMO, not the shit depicted in those pictures you libs love to jack off to... Second, the General said he never saw any such documents to support his claim... Third, the pentagon denied those alligations... And forth, there were investigations and hearings into the abuse that took place there, and they all determined that those actions were not taken based on orders from the top.

Nice try though...

[Bill Cosby]

Sounds like a lot of justifying torture........

Gee I wonder what Truman & Ike thought of ppl like this that condonded torture........ http://lefteyeonthemedia.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/general-dwight-d-eisenhower.jpg

[mwillman]

Sounds like a lot of justifying torture........

Gee I wonder what Truman & Ike thought of ppl like this that condonded torture........ http://lefteyeonthemedia.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/general-dwight-d-eisenhower.jpg

They would be sickened by these soulless peoples defense of torture and the leaders that OKed it.

[Bill Cosby]

Yep..............

Nary a fuckin one would stoop so low as to torture........

I feel sorry for them. Imagine taking the "moral high ground" & the very fools you were defending pulled this shit...........

Only the "strong" (cough, cough) sheep stayed on board to defend the torture.......

Imagine the mental hoops a "moral", "ethical", "Christian" etc person must go through to justify torture???

Acknowledging on one hand that torturing Americans is wrong but torturing others is not. The ability not to see a inconsistency takes work…….. That is why you often here only the strong survive……… Even though that illusion is only in their own minds…

[radioguy]

I love it... I shoot down your phony bullshit, and in return, you ignore it and move on to your next propaganda push.

Liberal is, as liberal does.

[Bill Cosby]

Say what you wish...... I addressed you bs prior to this post....

have a nice evening...:)

[radioguy]

Say what you wish...... I addressed you bs prior to this post....

have a nice evening...:)

I was talking to mwillman, not you.

.

[mwillman]

Pretty much same response applies.

Your pathetic defense of torture shows your lack of a soul.

[Bill Cosby]

If you can justify torturing humans then why not kittens & puppies???

Fucking birds shit on my car??? Why not them..........

............... Let me guess.......... The good ppl are torturing for good reasons not bad like the Germans & Italians & Japanese duing ww2.....

we are the good guys........ we do vile acts for good, they did them for bad........:)

[radioguy]

Who are you talking to?

It can't be me, because I don't support torture.

[mwillman]

Who are you talking to?

It can't be me, because I don't support torture.

LIAR, you support those that torture which is the same fucking thing.

[Bill Cosby]

Who are you talking to?

It can't be me, because I don't support torture.

Not you.....

& you support torture...... YOu just wish to call it something esle....
Send one of your family or fiends over & let me not torture:hi: them or you on a board w/ some water...........

[radioguy]

Not you.....

& you support torture...... YOu just wish to call it something esle....
Send one of your family or fiends over & let me not torture:hi: them or you on a board w/ some water...........

Sorry pal... But you people are the ones who call enhanced interrogation torture. I call it what it is.

.

[Bill Cosby]

“A rose by any other name would be just as sweet”...............

Mark this day son..............

As you will remember it when you learn "the bad ppl" have used your justification.......

Have a nice evening……..

[radioguy]

“A rose by any other name would be just as sweet”...............

Mark this day son..............

As you will remember it when you learn "the bad ppl" have used your justification.......

Have a nice evening……..


The bad people are the ones who flew planes into buildings on 9/11. Supporting the waterboarding of members of that organization to save American lives, is something I will never regret.

But I guess being nice to the man who sawed off the head of Daniel Pearle, and allowing him to not disclose al qaida's plans to murder more innocent American's, is a stance that fits your ideology well... Where I come from, we call that "sleeping with the enemy".

You have a nice evening as well.

.

[MintJulep]

The bad people are the ones who flew planes into buildings on 9/11. Supporting the waterboarding of members of that organization to save American lives, is something I will never regret.

But I guess being nice to the man who sawed off the head of Daniel Pearle, and allowing him to not disclose al qaida's plans to murder more innocent American's, is a stance that fits your ideology well... Where I come from, we call that "sleeping with the enemy".

.AMEN..........

[GetAClue]

Let’s see if I can recap this thread.

First, LLDem insinuates that conservatives support the illegal actions of a few soldiers at Abu Grab a few years back.

Then, a few conservatives put things into perspective and show that they never supported the actions of a few sick individuals.

Next, mwillman claims that Rumsfeld and Cheney gave the go ahead to do these things.

Radioguy calls out mwillmans ridiculous assertion and asks mwillman to provide proof of his statement, which mwillman cannot, once again.

Next, Bill Cosby attempts to change the subject by equating the illegal actions of a few soldiers to water boarding terrorists at GITMO.

So once again we see the liberal mind at work. Make a false claim, back it with half truths or flat out lies and then change the subject when your argument fails.

Did I miss anything? Probably the usual foul language and name calling, but other than that, is there anything else?

Carry on.

[Smurf-Herder]

Do you people even have a fucking clue.

You really should pay attention to what officers involved had to say.

Here is what General Karpinski the former head of the U.S. prison system in Iraq had to say,

http://www.scvhistory.com/scvhistory/signal/iraq/sg070204.htm


6 Employees From CACI International, Titan Referred for Prosecution

By Renae Merle and Ellen McCarthy
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, August 26, 2004; Page A18

The three generals investigating the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison determined that six civilian contract employees participated in or failed to report abuse of prisoners, and they referred those individuals to the Justice Department for prosecution.

The employees worked for CACI International Inc., of Arlington, which provided interrogators at the prison, and Titan Corp., which provided translators. The report, which also said the Army failed to properly monitor contractors, provided the clearest view yet of the role contractors played in the prison abuses.

The report alleged that CACI interrogators used dogs to scare prisoners, placed detainees in unauthorized "stress positions" and encouraged soldiers to abuse prisoners at Abu Ghraib. Titan employees hit detainees and stood by while soldiers physically abused prisoners, according to the report.

"The use of contract interrogators and linguists at Abu Ghraib was problematic . . . from a variety of perspectives," the report said. The military was "unprepared for the arrival of contract interrogators and had no training to fall back on in the management, control, and discipline of these personnel."

The investigation found that about half of CACI's interrogators were not properly trained and that the military officer in charge of interrogations did not screen them before allowing them to conduct interrogations. In some cases, CACI interrogators supervised military personnel, which the company has said they were not authorized to do.

Investigators referred four contract employees to the Justice Department after finding they contributed to the abuse and two others for failing to report it.

The report, however, raised questions about how some contractors could be prosecuted. The CACI contract was managed by the Department of Interior. The report said that companies working under contracts not issued by the Defense Department may not be subject to the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act, which says military contractors are subject to criminal prosecution when operating outside the country if they are accompanying the armed forces.

CACI said in a statement that it is cooperating with the investigation and reviewing the report. "We regret that any CACI personnel are alleged to have engaged in inappropriate behavior."

An Army report released in May accused one CACI employee, Steven A. Stefanowicz, of being directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses. Stefanowicz was not named in yesterday's report. His lawyer repeated earlier assertions that his client had done nothing wrong.

While contending that Titan's contract produced "generally positive results," the report noted that on occasion linguists were removed from their positions for misconduct. The report cleared one Titan employee, who had been implicated in the internal Army report.

Titan said it was pleased one employee was exonerated and is cooperating with the investigation. "It goes beyond our imagination and violates all of our policies for any employee to participate or remain silent while the alleged abuses such as those at Abu Ghraib went on," Titan spokesman Wil Williams said. "If any of our employees have done anything wrong, we will take appropriate action."

The report said contract interrogators and linguists were involved in 16 of the 44 alleged abuses at the prison. According to the report, an unidentified CACI interrogator grabbed a prisoner from a vehicle, pulled him to the ground and dragged him to an interrogation booth as the prisoner tried to stand. The same CACI employee allegedly drank alcohol at the prison and refused to take orders from a military officer, saying, "I have been doing my job for 20 years and do not need a 20-year-old to tell me how to do my job."

Another CACI interrogator allegedly encouraged a soldier, Staff Sgt. Ivan L. Frederick, to abuse a detainee after a shooting incident at the prison, and did not stop Frederick from covering the detainee's mouth and nose, preventing him from breathing. Frederick has pleaded guilty to some charges of abuse of prisoners. The interrogator also allegedly used Frederick's presence as a threat to prisoners and used dogs during the roundup of detainees.

A third CACI employee is accused of humiliating a prisoner by shaving his head and beard and forcing him to wear red women's underwear.

The report also alleges that a civilian interpreter wearing a military uniform raped a 15- to 18-year-old male detainee while a female soldier took pictures. The incident's date and participants could not be confirmed, but the report said the description of the interpreter partially matches that of a Titan employee. The allegation is still being investigated, the report said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A33834-2004Aug25?language=printer

I indirectly heard about "the guys from CACI" long before CACI ever hit the news, by way of a former CACI employee.

[Zebulon0351]

BTW... Will there ever come a time when you libs will stop glorifying shit like this? Or will your hatred for Bush linger on for the rest of your sad, sad lives?

I hope a day comes when your love for America, becomes a greater priority to you people then your hatred for Bush. I'm not holding my breath though.

My love for America and my hate for Bush go hand in hand.

[Zebulon0351]

Sorry pal... But you people are the ones who call enhanced interrogation torture. I call it what it is.

.

"Enhanced Interrogation" is a term that was originally created by the Gestapo.
So, "what it is" is a load a bullshit created by the GOP to justify their inhumane practices.

[Zebulon0351]

T
But I guess being nice to the man who sawed off the head of Daniel Pearle, and allowing him to not disclose al qaida's plans to murder more innocent American's, is a stance that fits your ideology well...
.

Prove it... that's right, you can't.

[Smurf-Herder]

Prove it... that's right, you can't.

But KSM bragged about it all :thumbsup:

KSM: "I Beheaded Reporter Daniel Pearl"

Al Qaeda mastermind Khalid sheik Mohammed admits he personally murdered Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, according to an updated version of his confession released today by the Pentagon.

"I decapitated with blessed right hand the head of the American Jew, Daniel Pearl, in the city of Karachi, Pakistan," Mohammed said in a written declaration submitted to a military tribunal at Guantanamo last weekend.

The Pentagon says it initially redacted the confession so that it could notify Pearl's family before the admission became public.

ABC News had earlier reported that Mohammed, known by the initials KSM, was the person who decapitated Pearl in a video that was distributed worldwide.

"For those who would like to confirm, there are pictures of me on the Iternet holding his head," KSM said in his statement.

US officials had told ABC News that identifying marks on the hand of the masked man holding Pearl's head matched those of KSM.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/03/ksm_i_beheaded_.html

Confessions of a Terrorist: I'm Guilty of 3,000+ Murders

Presidents Clinton and Carter, Pope John Paul II, Henry Kissinger, the Empire State Building, the Library Tower in Los Angeles and the Sears Tower in Chicago were among the targets of al Qaeda attacks planned by captured al Qaeda terror commander Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, according to a written statement he filed this weekend at a hearing held at the American prison at Guantanamo.

Known as KSM, he also formally admitted responsibility for the 9/ll attacks, the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and the bombing of a nightclub in Bali, Indonesia.

KSM, captured in 2003 in Pakistan, was subjected by the CIA to waterboarding and other "extreme interrogation" techniques, according to current and former CIA officials.

Legal experts say his case will test whether confessions made as the result of such techniques will be admissible under the rules of the special Combatant Tribunals established by the Bush administration.

KSM's confession is a remarkable document, listing most of the known, and a few unknown, terror attacks or plots over the last 10 years.

"I was responsible for the 9/ll operation, from A to Z," the declaration reads.

He also says he was responsible for planning and financing a "second wave" of attacks that targeted the Library Tower in Los Angeles, the Sears Towers in Chicago, the Plaza Bank in Washington State and the Empire State Building in New York.

FBI officials in Chicago had previously denied ABC News reports that the Sears Tower was a possible target.

He says the Sears Tower was to be destroyed by "burning a few fuel or oil tanker trunks beneath it or around it."

KSM also says he was planning attacks on American military vessels in the Straights of Hormuz, Gibraltar and the Port of Singapore, along with a plan to bomb and destroy the Panama Canal.

Also on KSM's plot list: U.S. embassies, Israeli embassies, Israeli passenger jets at the Bangkok Airport, U.S. targets in South Korea, NATO headquarters, U.S. nuclear power plants and "an American oil company owned by the Jewish former Secrreatry of State, Henry Kissinger, on the island of Sumatra, Indonesia."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/03/confessions_of_.html

[Zebulon0351]

He said he had plans to carry out those attacks. No attacks were prevented by using ETM on him.

[MintJulep]

He said he had plans to carry out those attacks. No attacks were prevented by using ETM on him.You don't know that....

But it's valiant of you to defend him without having all the info. :rolleyes:

[Smurf-Herder]

He said he had plans to carry out those attacks. No attacks were prevented by using ETM on him.

Only Obama releasing the documents will prove that, one way or the other - which is something he's refusing to do. That's the whole point of this argument - Obama unwilling to back up the accusations, but continuing to use them in partisan politics.

[Zebulon0351]

You don't know that....

But it's valiant of you to defend him without having all the info. :rolleyes:

Hey bitch, I have fought against the very men who worked under him. How very valiant of you to sit behind your computer and bitch while some people are actually doing something to make the world a safer place.

[Zebulon0351]

Only Obama releasing the documents will prove that, one way or the other - which is something he's refusing to do. That's the whole point of this argument - Obama unwilling to back up the accusations, but continuing to use them in partisan politics.

Obama releasing the documents would create a shit storm in the Arab world. Im glad he's not releasing them, my brother is over there right now and I wouldn't want him to be in any more danger than he already is.

[Zebulon0351]

Oh, by the way LadyLiberty, Im still waiting for you to post your picture in "shooting the shit" forum. You called out the "libs" to post their picture but you still haven't posted yours...

[MintJulep]

Hey bitch, I have fought against the very men who worked under him. How very valiant of you to sit behind your computer and bitch while some people are actually doing something to make the world a safer place.You stated it as fact when it has been reported that KSM broke under waterboarding and revealed info about an attack on the Library Towers.

If, in fact, it is revealed these techniques have saved American lives, would you prefer we sacrificed these lives to spare a terrorist 2 minutes of discomfort?

[MintJulep]

Obama releasing the documents would create a shit storm in the Arab world. Im glad he's not releasing them, my brother is over there right now and I wouldn't want him to be in any more danger than he already is.Why would Obama want to release photos yet nothing else? Don't you think photos are more damning? The bottom line is, this is all about partisan politics and he hopes the sheeplets are too dumb to see it.

[Zebulon0351]

You stated it as fact when it has been reported that KSM broke under waterboarding and revealed info about an attack on the Library Towers.

If, in fact, it is revealed these techniques have saved American lives, would you prefer we sacrificed these lives to spare a terrorist 2 minutes of discomfort?

Show me where this had been revealed, and how waterboarding proved to be a reliable method of extracting factual information.

[Smurf-Herder]

Obama releasing the documents would create a shit storm in the Arab world. Im glad he's not releasing them, my brother is over there right now and I wouldn't want him to be in any more danger than he already is.

Well my son and his fiancé are going back in August. And I have no problem with the Arab world seeing what atrocities Al-Qaeda planned for us. Maybe the moderates will understand why we did what we did, when they see what we were trying to prevent - instead of just seeing what Obama wants them to see, which will only enflame them.

Obama wants to do exactly what you worry about; without doing anything that balances why we had the policies we did.

[Hog Trash]

warning some photos are on the graphic side!

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-29/torture-photos-depict-sex-rape/#gallery=298;page=10

the sick fucks who did this to these people need to have the same shit done to them just for starters.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-29/torture-photos-depict-sex-rape/

full storyFor some strange reason I'm having a little trouble feeling compassion for cowardly savages who indesrimanantly murder men, women and little children in the name of Alah.

Most likely these "sick fucks" you are refering to share the same feelings that I do.....I can understand their disgust of these sick twisted low-life jihad savages.

The difference between us and them is we do it too people who deserve it.

[Smurf-Herder]

Show me where this had been revealed, and how waterboarding proved to be a reliable method of extracting factual information.


DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many times do we have to say it? It's proved in the documents the ex-CIA chief and Cheney say Obama won't release.

Look, you're in the military. You know there has to be evaluation reports on interrogations. Just like After Action Reports and Bomb Damage Assessments. But Obama won't release there.

[MintJulep]

Show me where this had been revealed, and how waterboarding proved to be a reliable method of extracting factual information.

"Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques "led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles." KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/20/AR2009042002818.html

[Independent Harry]

For some strange reason I'm having a little trouble feeling compassion for cowardly savages who indesrimanantly murder men, women and little children in the name of Alah.

Most likely these "sick fucks" you are refering to share the same feelings that I do.....I can understand their disgust of these sick twisted low-life jihad savages.

The difference between us and them is we do it too people who deserve it.

Interesting, but all of those people didnt' indiscrimantly murder people, some of them were everyday people like you and me trying to make a living...

[Zebulon0351]

DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many times do we have to say it? It's proved in the documents the ex-CIA chief and Cheney say Obama won't release.

Look, you're in the military. You know there has to be evaluation reports on interrogations. Just like After Action Reports and Bomb Damage Assessments. But Obama won't release there.

So again, we are going on Cheney's word. And if you want to use Michael Hayden as a reliable source, that argument won't hold much water as well. Why would one of the very people who may be investigated say anything different?

[Hog Trash]

Interesting, but all of those people didnt' indiscrimantly murder people, some of them were everyday people like you and me trying to make a living...So why were they targeted???

[Smurf-Herder]

So again, we are going on Cheney's word. And if you want to use Michael Hayden as a reliable source, that argument won't hold much water as well. Why would one of the very people who may be investigated say anything different?

So, anybody who is in a position to know first-hand is automatically discounted ......... except for the people in charge now, who won't release the actual documentation in question.

How convenient.

That's just a plain bullshit avoidance of dealing with any credible evidence.

[Zebulon0351]

"Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques "led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles." KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast."



Just to clarify, who was waterboarded to prevent the attacks on Library Tower?

[Zebulon0351]

So, anybody who is in a position to know first-hand is automatically discounted ......... except for the people in charge now, who won't release the actual documentation in question.

How convenient.

That's just a plain bullshit avoidance of dealing with any credible evidence.

First of all, George Bush rewrote the law to allow waterboarding to be allowed in interrogations in the first place, going against a Supreme Court ruling. Anybody involved with any of these practices, after, and especially before should be held accountable.

So I am not giving you any "plain bullshit avoidance" whatsoever. Laws were broken, and people are trying to cover their own ass when their hand got caught in the cookie jar.

[MintJulep]

Just to clarify, who was waterboarded to prevent the attacks on Library Tower?KSM..........

I thought that was pretty obvious.

[Smurf-Herder]

First of all, George Bush rewrote the law to allow waterboarding to be allowed in interrogations in the first place, going against a Supreme Court ruling. Anybody involved with any of these practices, after, and especially before should be held accountable.

So I am not giving you any "plain bullshit avoidance" whatsoever. Laws were broken, and people are trying to cover their own ass when their hand got caught in the cookie jar.

So now you're redirecting the debate away from the "effectiveness" question.

BTW, when was that Supreme Court ruling?

[Zebulon0351]

KSM..........

I thought that was pretty obvious.

No he wasn't. Show me something that says he was waterboarded to foil the attacks of the Library Tower

[MintJulep]

No he wasn't. Show me something that says he was waterboarded to foil the attacks of the Library Tower

"Consider the Justice Department memo of May 30, 2005. It notes that "the CIA believes 'the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qaeda has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.' . . . In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including [Khalid Sheik Mohammed] and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques." The memo continues: "Before the CIA used enhanced techniques . . . KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, 'Soon you will find out.' " Once the techniques were applied, "interrogations have led to specific, actionable intelligence, as well as a general increase in the amount of intelligence regarding al Qaeda and its affiliates."

Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques "led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles." KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast.

[Zebulon0351]

Ok, and what is that quoted from?

[MintJulep]

The link in my last post.

[Zebulon0351]

Ok.. so according to the White House fact sheet:
http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070523.html

In 2002, we broke up a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast. During a hearing at Guantanamo Bay two months ago, KSM stated that the intended target was the Library Tower in Los Angeles.

I guess this is where all of this is coming from?

[MintJulep]

I got the info from an op-ed in the Washington Post.

[Zebulon0351]

I got the info from an op-ed in the Washington Post.

So you would agree that the information in your post is some of the same information that I linked you to in the Bush archives, correct?

[MintJulep]

I can't say where the author at WP got his information. Regardless, there is information indicating KSM caved and confessed to a plot at the Library Towers. There is certainly nothing that disproves that. Only Obama holds the keys to the truth although there doesn't seem to be much "transparency" with that administration.

[Zebulon0351]

I can't say where the author at WP got his information. Regardless, there is information indicating KSM caved and confessed to a plot at the Library Towers. There is certainly nothing that disproves that. Only Obama holds the keys to the truth although there doesn't seem to be much "transparency" with that administration.

Ok.. now that we have that covered:

Again, the link to the Bush archives I provided said:

In 2002, we broke up a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast. During a hearing at Guantanamo Bay two months ago, KSM stated that the intended target was the Library Tower in Los Angeles.

My question is:

How is it that KSM confessed to a plot and we prevented this attack in 2002 if he wasn't even detained until 2003?

Ok, its fucking great that KSM admitted to a plot that never happened in the first place. So you are saying that waterboarding is justified even if it doesn't stop an imminent attack?

Your problem is you get your information from "Op-Eds" from the Washington Post, and you neglect to look further into the information to determine its credibility. Thank you LadyLiberty for proving that you know absolutely nothing but what Conservative news anchors and journalists tell their flock. You are a true conservative!

[radioguy]

Prove it... that's right, you can't.

Prove what?

That one of the detainees we waterboarded decapitated Daniel Pearle?

[radioguy]

So again, we are going on Cheney's word. And if you want to use Michael Hayden as a reliable source, that argument won't hold much water as well. Why would one of the very people who may be investigated say anything different?

If Cheney was lying, you can bet the farm Obama would release all the documents to discredit him... He hasn't done so, and says everything.

[Zebulon0351]

Prove what?

That one of the detainees we waterboarded decapitated Daniel Pearle?

And the son of a bitch deserves to be placed in confinement for the rest of his life, but you can't be saying it's ok to waterboard someone as punishment?

[radioguy]

And the son of a bitch deserves to be placed in confinement for the rest of his life, but you can't be saying it's ok to waterboard someone as punishment?

Not at all... Waterboarding was done to extract information that saved American lives, as has already been pointed out to you.

[Zebulon0351]

Not at all... Waterboarding was done to extract information that saved American lives, as has already been pointed out to you.

No it hasn't.. the Bush White House itself stated the attack was stopped in 2002, but KSM was not captured until 2003.

[MintJulep]

No it hasn't.. the Bush White House itself stated the attack was stopped in 2002, but KSM was not captured until 2003.The planned attack had been aborted, but he confessed to it nonetheless.

Here are some more highlights from this little innocent angel's repetorie....


Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was a member of Osama bin Laden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden)'s al-Qaeda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda) organization, although he lived in Kuwait (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuwait) rather than Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan), heading al-Qaeda's propaganda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda) operations from sometime around 1999. According to the 9/11 Commission Report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission_Report) he was "the principal architect of the 9/11 attacks." He is also thought to have had, or has confessed to, a role in many of the most significant terrorist plots over the last twenty years, including the World Trade Center 1993 bombings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center_1993_bombings), the Operation Bojinka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bojinka) plot, an aborted 2002 attack on the U.S. Bank Tower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Bank_Tower) in Los Angeles, the Bali nightclub bombings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bali_nightclub_bombings), the failed bombing of American Airlines Flight 63 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_63), the Millennium Plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_millennium_attack_plots), and the murder of Daniel Pearl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pearl).

According to the "unclassified summary of evidence" presented during the Combatant Status Review Tribunal Hearing in 2007 a computer hard drive seized during the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed contained the following:

information about the four airplanes hijacked on 11 September 2001 including code names, airline company, flight number, target, pilot name and background information, and names of the hijackers
photographs of 19 individuals identified as the 11 September 2001 hijackers
a document that listed the pilot license fees for Mohammad Atta and biographies for some of the 11 September 2001 hijackers.
images of passports and an image of Mohammad Atta.
transcripts of chat sessions belonging to at least one of the 11 September 2001 hijackers.
three letters from Usama bin Laden
spreadsheets that describe money assistance to families of known al Qaida members
a letter to the United Arab Emirates threatening attack if their government continued to help the United States
a document that summarized operational procedures and training requirements of an al Qaida cell
a list of killed and wounded al Qaida militants.However, at the hearing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed claimed that the computer belonged not to him but to Mustafa Ahmad al-Hawsawi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Ahmad_al-Hawsawi) arrested together with him.

Gee, poor little terrorist! Surely he's innocent. Bad, bad Booossh just made it all up. :( :(

[Zebulon0351]

The planned attack had been aborted, but he confessed to it nonetheless.

Here are some more highlights from this little innocent angel's repetorie....


Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was a member of Osama bin Laden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden)'s al-Qaeda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda) organization, although he lived in Kuwait (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuwait) rather than Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan), heading al-Qaeda's propaganda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda) operations from sometime around 1999. According to the 9/11 Commission Report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission_Report) he was "the principal architect of the 9/11 attacks." He is also thought to have had, or has confessed to, a role in many of the most significant terrorist plots over the last twenty years, including the World Trade Center 1993 bombings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center_1993_bombings), the Operation Bojinka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bojinka) plot, an aborted 2002 attack on the U.S. Bank Tower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Bank_Tower) in Los Angeles, the Bali nightclub bombings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bali_nightclub_bombings), the failed bombing of American Airlines Flight 63 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_63), the Millennium Plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_millennium_attack_plots), and the murder of Daniel Pearl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pearl).

According to the "unclassified summary of evidence" presented during the Combatant Status Review Tribunal Hearing in 2007 a computer hard drive seized during the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed contained the following:

information about the four airplanes hijacked on 11 September 2001 including code names, airline company, flight number, target, pilot name and background information, and names of the hijackers
photographs of 19 individuals identified as the 11 September 2001 hijackers
a document that listed the pilot license fees for Mohammad Atta and biographies for some of the 11 September 2001 hijackers.
images of passports and an image of Mohammad Atta.
transcripts of chat sessions belonging to at least one of the 11 September 2001 hijackers.
three letters from Usama bin Laden
spreadsheets that describe money assistance to families of known al Qaida members
a letter to the United Arab Emirates threatening attack if their government continued to help the United States
a document that summarized operational procedures and training requirements of an al Qaida cell
a list of killed and wounded al Qaida militants.However, at the hearing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed claimed that the computer belonged not to him but to Mustafa Ahmad al-Hawsawi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Ahmad_al-Hawsawi) arrested together with him.

Gee, poor little terrorist! Surely he's innocent. Bad, bad Booossh just made it all up. :( :(

Wow.. absolutely not even one thing you listed is information that prevented an imminent attack. Great job LadyLiberty! You just proved yourself wrong. Thanks

By the way.. I'm still waiting for you to post your picture in "Shooting the Shit"

[MintJulep]

Wow.. absolutely not even one thing you listed is information that prevented an imminent attack. Great job LadyLiberty! You just proved yourself wrong. ThanksUntil Obot releases the memos, no one knows exactly what was prevented.

We know one thing for certain -- he is a head-chopping, Islamonazi.

By the way.. I'm still waiting for you to post your picture in "Shooting the Shit"I don't take orders from you. That said, the only reason I haven't is because I know a bunch of trolls from a Obot-worship site that Wayers and I were banned from troll this site, and I don't want to give them the satisifaction of anything about me. I have nothing to hide, I simply haven't posted it in public.

[mwillman]

Not at all... Waterboarding was done to extract information that saved American lives, as has already been pointed out to you.


Really can you prove that, just becuase Cheney says something doesn't make it truth in fact its more likely to be a lie as far as I'm concerned.

I know you can't prove it by the way but give it a try if you can.

[radioguy]

Really can you prove that, just becuase Cheney says something doesn't make it truth in fact its more likely to be a lie as far as I'm concerned.

I know you can't prove it by the way but give it a try if you can.

The proof is, that Cheney made these claims, which is counter to the liberal/Obama platform, and Obama has the power to release the documents and destroy Cheney if he was lying. Obama won't release them... That my friend, is all the proof you need.

[Smurf-Herder]

Ok.. now that we have that covered:

Again, the link to the Bush archives I provided said:



My question is:

How is it that KSM confessed to a plot and we prevented this attack in 2002 if he wasn't even detained until 2003?

Ok, its fucking great that KSM admitted to a plot that never happened in the first place. So you are saying that waterboarding is justified even if it doesn't stop an imminent attack?

Your problem is you get your information from "Op-Eds" from the Washington Post, and you neglect to look further into the information to determine its credibility. Thank you LadyLiberty for proving that you know absolutely nothing but what Conservative news anchors and journalists tell their flock. You are a true conservative!

This was gone through in another thread, about two weeks ago.

We captured the guy who was the leader of the cell planning the second follow-on attack back then, without knowing what the planned target was, or the other members of the cell. But, the organizer of the attack was still at large. KSM helped us capture the organizer of the planned attack; and prevent it being carried out, reorganized with a new cell leader.

In other words, we captured a guy, without knowing what was fully in the works. KSM provided all the details on that attack and led to the capture of the person who could potentially be responsible for it still being carried out at a later date.

[foxbaron]

Question for ya all.

Does anyone know who these guys were that were tortured or humiliated, or whatever you want to call it.

Were these innocent citizens rounded up in a sweep of some sort or were these the same guys who used to torture Iraqi citizens on behalf of Saddam. Were they Iraqi military or innocent citizens on there way to the 711 to get milk for their mommy?

Why were they in custody in the first place?

[Smurf-Herder]

Question for ya all.

Does anyone know who these guys were that were tortured or humiliated, or whatever you want to call it.

Were these innocent citizens rounded up in a sweep of some sort or were these the same guys who used to torture Iraqi citizens on behalf of Saddam. Were they Iraqi military or innocent citizens on there way to the 711 to get milk for their mommy?

Why were they in custody in the first place?

They were known Al-Qaeda Leaders - that's why the CIA caught them in third-party countries. KSM was the head guy who planned everything, gave the ideas to Osama, organized the cells and got together all their funding, travel arrangements, etc. He was the guy highlighted in the ABC movie "Road to 911".

The three that got waterboarded were the top-tier Al-Qaeda leaders, directly under Bin Laden and Zawahiri. They were the highest level people in Al-Qaeda, who would know anything there was to know about the organization and it's plans, from the top.

[mwillman]

The proof is, that Cheney made these claims, which is counter to the liberal/Obama platform, and Obama has the power to release the documents and destroy Cheney if he was lying. Obama won't release them... That my friend, is all the proof you need.


OK, So becuase Cheney said it and it goes against the present regime you consider it proof.

That's all I need to know, You are an ignorant zealot.

I say lets release all the memos and have a truth commission on the whole thing.

[radioguy]

OK, So becuase Cheney said it and it goes against the present regime you consider it proof.

That's all I need to know, You are an ignorant zealot.

I say lets release all the memos and have a truth commission on the whole thing.

Dude... Read what I wrote again.

Better yet, read it 3 or 4 times and maybe you will understand what I said.

If Cheney was lying, all Obama would have to do is release the documents and Cheney would be destroyed. If Cheney is telling the truth, then Obama won't release the documents...

As we all know, Obama refuses to release the documents...

That is all the proof you need.

.

[mwillman]

There is no reason that President Obama should let cheney control what information comes outs.

Cheney is a main suspect in the case on torture and as such should not be trusted or expected to give evidence that will incriminate him.

The best solution is to have a full investigation by non partisan experts and let the truth fall where it will.

[MintJulep]

The best solution is to have a full investigation by non partisan experts and let the truth fall where it will.There is not a human being on the "planet" who is non-partisan. Anyone who says they are is a liar.

[disrupter]

Mason,
it is about law & order.

You behead someone you are held accountable in a court of law & pay whatever sentence is determined therein.

Gitmo was created as an OUTLAW facility,
so the outlaw terrorists that have a large control over the US government & military can evade the US constitution & American law & order.

You don't pay $5,000.00 USD a head, NO QUESTIONS ASKED, for anyone wanting to turn someone in as a so-called 'terrorists'.
I bet the actual Taliban made a bundle turning every innocent person they could round up.

Torture is an action of terrorists.
The terrorists in the US government & military must be held accountable in a court of law for their war criminality.

[doctordog]

Mason,
it is about law & order.

You behead someone you are held accountable in a court of law & pay whatever sentence is determined therein.

Gitmo was created as an OUTLAW facility,
so the outlaw terrorists that have a large control over the US government & military can evade the US constitution & American law & order.

You don't pay $5,000.00 USD a head, NO QUESTIONS ASKED, for anyone wanting to turn someone in as a so-called 'terrorists'.
I bet the actual Taliban made a bundle turning every innocent person they could round up.

Torture is an action of terrorists.
The terrorists in the US government & military must be held accountable in a court of law for their war criminality.

Innocent according to you? nuff said!:lmao2:

[disrupter]

The right are sick, terrorist barbarians,

'gathering intel' is just an EXCUSE for their inhuman compulsions.

They are a stain on America.

[doctordog]

The right are sick, terrorist barbarians,

'gathering intel' is just an EXCUSE for their inhuman compulsions.

They are a stain on America.


get a new record, this one is scratched;)

[disrupter]

Looks like you are the one it has scratched.

'S-K-R-E-E-C-H'

is the truth getting on your nerves?

[doctordog]

Looks like you are the one it has scratched.

'S-K-R-E-E-C-H'

is the truth getting on your nerves?

not your truth, it is actually hilarious that there are people that think like you out there.

[disrupter]

Well my truth is based on thinking,

not just a lot of dogmatic, reflexive ignorance,

which is something you are so well marinated in.

[doctordog]

Well my truth is based on thinking,

not just a lot of dogmatic, reflexive ignorance,

which is something you are so well marinated in.

Your truth is based on thinkiing by a sad insane person that needs help. I sincerely hope you get it.

[disrupter]

who's sad? you?

no, i am doing my own thinking, not regurgitating your vile bile.

[foxbaron]

They were known Al-Qaeda Leaders - that's why the CIA caught them in third-party countries. KSM was the head guy who planned everything, gave the ideas to Osama, organized the cells and got together all their funding, travel arrangements, etc. He was the guy highlighted in the ABC movie "Road to 911".

The three that got waterboarded were the top-tier Al-Qaeda leaders, directly under Bin Laden and Zawahiri. They were the highest level people in Al-Qaeda, who would know anything there was to know about the organization and it's plans, from the top.


I was talking about the poor dears who were in the prison and had panties put on their heads and other embarrassing things done to them. I'd like to know exactly who they were and why we should even care.

If these were innocent civilians just rounded up that is one thing but if they were at one time the torturers themselves, on behalf of Saddam, than I don't care what happened to them.

I would just like to know exactly who these guys were and why they were in jail in the first place.

[Smurf-Herder]

I was talking about the poor dears who were in the prison and had panties put on their heads and other embarrassing things done to them. I'd like to know exactly who they were and why we should even care.

If these were innocent civilians just rounded up that is one thing but if they were at one time the torturers themselves, on behalf of Saddam, than I don't care what happened to them.

I would just like to know exactly who these guys were and why they were in jail in the first place.

I don't think there's a specific list available to the public on that. They were various Iraqis captured during fighting, in raids, or other circumstances. Some may have been Fedayeen, some Madhi army; and some low-level part-time Iraqi mercs, or foreign fighters. I don't know where you'd find the details.

[foxbaron]

I don't think there's a specific list available to the public on that. They were various Iraqis captured during fighting, in raids, or other circumstances. Some may have been Fedayeen, some Madhi army; and some low-level part-time Iraqi mercs, or foreign fighters. I don't know where you'd find the details.


Which means the likelihood of them being innocent civilians is pretty unlikely. So it would be safe to assume that prior to their capture they were trying to kill our troops or other innocent Iraqis or were the guys torturing other Iraqis on Saddam's behalf. Therefore why in the hell should we feel sorry for them?