We need a national health insurance plan.

[mwillman]

President Obama has been promising to fix the health care system in this nation but now he is letting the giant insurance companies bully him into a half assed approach that will not work and will only cost this nation more for less service.

50% of all private bankruptcies are medical related. over 40 million are not insured which means if they do get treatment it cost far more and it is left to the tax payers to absorb the cost.

We are not asking for socialized medicine we are asking for a national health insurance system. Were people can go to any doctor or hospital. Were the costs for care will be dramatically reduced becuase we no long have to pay the huge salaries of insurance company CEOs and the huge profits that end up in the pockets of the rich. It will also mean that small and large business alike will loss a huge expense that has been increasing by as much as 6% a year.

Here is a site created by American doctors both democrat, republican, and independent who support a national health insurance system.

http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer_faq.php#socialized

[Betty Blowtorch]

But... but... but... but...

If we spend more money on saving people's lives here in the US,
we'll have less money to spend on aircraft carriers and F-16's
and other cool stuff for killing sand niggers in the Middle East.

Surely you wouldn't want that to happen.

[mwillman]

The fact is we will spend less money and save more lives.
It will make our businesses more competitive and that could allow them to hire more.

The only losers are the insurance companies and they deserve it.

[radioguy]

President Obama has been promising to fix the health care system in this nation but now he is letting the giant insurance companies bully him into a half assed approach that will not work and will only cost this nation more for less service.

50% of all private bankruptcies are medical related. over 40 million are not insured which means if they do get treatment it cost far more and it is left to the tax payers to absorb the cost.

We are not asking for socialized medicine we are asking for a national health insurance system. Were people can go to any doctor or hospital. Were the costs for care will be dramatically reduced becuase we no long have to pay the huge salaries of insurance company CEOs and the huge profits that end up in the pockets of the rich. It will also mean that small and large business alike will loss a huge expense that has been increasing by as much as 6% a year.

Here is a site created by American doctors both democrat, republican, and independent who support a national health insurance system.

http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer_faq.php#socialized


Well, I think that health care for everyone (or nearly everyone) is possible. But it has to be in the form of health care reform, not socialized medicine. In other words, no government run health care.

Everything the government runs turns to shit, so lets keep them out of the CEO business.

btw mwillman... When you take out illegal aliens, people who can afford health insurance but choose not to purchase any, and the people who qualify for Medicare and medicade, but are unaware of it, your looking at around 18 million people who don't have any health care services. That's approximately 1 in every 20 people... Which really isn't that bad.

[mwillman]

Sorry Radioguy but I don't buy the illegal alien rhetoric.

If you have proof of that then let me know other wise to me its just more right wing paranoia.
Its sounds like Daniel Day Louise in Gangs of New York.

Also its not socialized medicine.

Doctors and hospitals would be private only the insurance would be nationalized.

[radioguy]

Sorry Radioguy but I don't buy the illegal alien rhetoric.

If you have proof of that then let me know other wise to me its just more right wing paranoia.
Its sounds like Daniel Day Louise in Gangs of New York.


It's in the fucking report that you and every other liberal quotes... I read it myself. It's available online in pdf form.

[mwillman]

Its not in the report I quoted.

I think you are misrepresenting what that report said.

[mwillman]

The average HMO spends as much as 30% or more of every dollar.
Medicare has a 3% administration expense on every dollar. That's a minimum savings of 27%.

[radioguy]

Its not in the report I quoted.

I think you are misrepresenting what that report said.


All partisan bullshit aside.... I believe the report came from the CDC, and you have to read nearly the entire damned thing to find that out.

I have to go to work now, but I will dig that report up and link you to it tomorrow.

[MintJulep]

Sorry Radioguy but I don't buy the illegal alien rhetoric.

If you have proof of that then let me know other wise to me its just more right wing paranoia.
Its sounds like Daniel Day Louise in Gangs of New York.

Also its not socialized medicine.

Doctors and hospitals would be private only the insurance would be nationalized.If the insurance companies go out of business, the government will takeover the entire system. The database, the "nationalized insurance plan" are all stepping stones for a fully-socialized system which would be a collective shithole.

A government subsidized plan for those in a low income bracket and a mandate for everyone who can afford to purchase insurance is the best way to lower costs. If you care about preserving quality, that is...

[mwillman]

I dont buy slippery slope arguments.

There are nations that already have national insurance systems and
those governments did not take over everything and they do not have socialized medicine.

The whole basis of the subsized idea is that insurance companies will lower costs and stop making such huge profits at the expense of the care they will pay for.

They have made those promises before and it took less then a year for them to not only break those promises but to start majorly increasing the prices for insurance.

The Subsidized system does not fix anything it just means we are forced to pay Insurance companies even when they can drop us anytime they want. It means we pay into private insurance and they get to jack up co pays or deny service for any reason they want.

No Im sorry but the insurance companies are only out to make a profit and they will do what ever it takes to make that profit.

I do not trust them and I do not think we will ever save money or help those that have no health care as long as we rely on private insurance.

[Cat slave]

If the insurance companies go out of business, the government will takeover the entire system. The database, the "nationalized insurance plan" are all stepping stones for a fully-socialized system which would be a collective shithole.

A government subsidized plan for those in a low income bracket and a mandate for everyone who can afford to purchase insurance is the best way to lower costs. If you care about preserving quality, that is...

I dont think the libruls have any comprehension of "quality". All they can see
is government run everything for everybody. But who will pay the bills?
Oh, silly me, such a trivial question and so politically incorrect.

Its pretty bad when we have models of "free" health care all over the world
and so many people still want it. They completely dismiss the huge numbers
of people who flee their free health care to come to this country for life
saving treatments or tests.

And nothing is FREE! Duh!

[mwillman]

No one is talking about free health care.

That's just political nonsense.

We are talking about a national insurance plan and its not just liberals.

There are people of every political persuasion who support this, of course most of them are doctors and nurses but hey why should we bother listening to the people that are actually doing the healing. Right?

When you have real argument to make please let me know.

[doctordog]

No one is talking about free health care.

That's just political nonsense.

We are talking about a national insurance plan and its not just liberals.

There are people of every political persuasion who support this, of course most of them are doctors and nurses but hey why should we bother listening to the people that are actually doing the healing. Right?

When you have real argument to make please let me know.

No GOOD doctor is for this, mostly just the shitty ones, I say ship them to Canada where they can kill all the patients because of neglect that they choose.

[mwillman]

No GOOD doctor is for this, mostly just the shitty ones, I say ship them to Canada where they can kill all the patients because of neglect that they choose.


Got any evidence of that, I don't think so.

Many of the doctors and nurses are some of the best this nation has to offer.
Just becuase they don't think like you do doesn't make them bad doctors.

[doctordog]

Got any evidence of that, I don't think so.

Many of the doctors and nurses are some of the best this nation has to offer.
Just becuase they don't think like you do doesn't make them bad doctors.

Because they can't think obviously does. Please move to Canada and wait on that needed surgery or just stay here, work and get it when you need it.

[mwillman]

Well sorry wayers but you are just full of shit.

Those doctors have far more education and understanding of the problems then you ever will. Your ignorant gut response to the issue just proves you don't know what the hell your talking about.

[doctordog]

Well sorry wayers but you are just full of shit.

Those doctors have far more education and understanding of the problems then you ever will. Your ignorant gut response to the issue just proves you don't know what the hell your talking about.

Fuck you dumbass, that must be why there are at least five practicing MD's in this small town I live in, all from Canada.

[mwillman]

Good for them, You do realize that anecdotal evidence is about as usefull as your brain, namely not at all.

Again when you have something real to add I will be interested but so far your about as useful as most ignorant back woods fucks I.E. not at all.

[Mr, gone]

417I am wondering if Wayers57's avatar might actually be a cartoon re-creation of him from a webcam snapshot.:lmao2:

[doctordog]

417I am wondering if Wayers57's avatar might actually be a cartoon re-creation of him from a webcam snapshot.:lmao2:

I am not surprised as most of your post show us your vivd imagination with little regard to any fact.

[doctordog]

Good for them, You do realize that anecdotal evidence is about as usefull as your brain, namely not at all.

Again when you have something real to add I will be interested but so far your about as useful as most ignorant back woods fucks I.E. not at all.

Like all your evidence from California? gotcha Mr. pelosi:thumbsup:

[SeniorChief]

Liberals - GIMME GIMME GIMME. Support me. Wipe my ass for me. I am a miserable failure living at home with Mother.

Conservatives to Liberals - Go fuck yourselves. Get off your ass and get a job - with healthcare benefits - or perhaps think outside the box. Grow a brain/start your own business and pay for your own health insurance.

Don't hardworking taxpayers (us) give you lazy fucks enough already?

[mwillman]

What are you are talking about.

The only think you have is the clap.

Miss Cheney.

P.S. if we had a national health insurance plan you could get that treated.

[kres24GT]

No thanks. We need less government in this matter, not more, we've seen what happens when Big Governmetn gets involved, things get worse. The more government has become involved in health care, the worse things have gotten. Only the most fascist sheep can look at the track record and want something like this. All common sense forbids it.

[SeniorChief]

...we've seen what happens when Big Governmetn gets involved, things get worse.


They can't even deliver the mail on time. And have you been to the DMV lately?

[kres24GT]

They can't even deliver the mail on time. And have you been to the DMV lately?


I agree, but I am talking about health care specifically, the more government becomes involved, the more regulating and deregulating hey do to help their corporate buddies, the worse and more expensive things get. Get government out of my health care, for the love of God.

[mwillman]

I say get the insurance companies out of our lives.
They have been screwing over the American people for a
very long time.

You want to trust greedy CEO's that's your business but I would rather they were burned at the stake.

The American dream is not just for the rich.

[kres24GT]

I say get the insurance companies out of our lives.
They have been screwing over the American people for a
very long time.

You want to trust greedy CEO's that's your business but I would rather they were burned at the stake.

The American dream is not just for the rich.


Insurance companies can't do anything without Big Government stacking the rules for them. Get rid of government, the insurance companies must live by the free market, not Big Government legislating them into huge profits.

[mwillman]

The free market as you call it is what has created so much trouble the last few years.

If we do not regulate business then business screws everyone over. Now we need to clean up the regulatory system but we can not do without one.

Business has been screwing over the majority of this nation for generations so I see no reason to give them more power.

Medical coverage should not be based on how rich you are.
The working class should have good care not just what a few CEOs decide they should have.

[kres24GT]

The free market as you call it is what has created so much trouble the last few years.

If we do not regulate business then business screws everyone over. Now we need to clean up the regulatory system but we can not do without one.

Business has been screwing over the majority of this nation for generations so I see no reason to give them more power.

Medical coverage should not be based on how rich you are.
The working class should have good care not just what a few CEOs decide they should have.


Just the opposite, we haven't had a free market in decades. Big Government has worked with Big Business to screw over Americans via legislation. Either you do not understand the concept of a free market or you are spinning because you support Big Business legislating their way to huge profits. To claim we have had a free market recently is absolutely laughable, or at the very least sad that someone could be ignorant enough to make such a comment.

More government ALWAYS means more profit for Big Business.

A free market should decide, not government, not business in bed with government.

[radioguy]

Here's something for you to think about mwillman, when it comes to the issue of government controlled vs. the private sector...

The government run public school system in America, cost the tax payers nearly $12,000.00 a year per student, while the average yearly tuition at a private school is a little over $8,000.00. What kids in the public school system get for the nearly 50% higher cost, is a substandard education.

That's exactly what Americans are going to get if we allow the Obama administration to nationalize the health care industry... Higher costs and substandard care.

[GetAClue]

I say get the insurance companies out of our lives.
They have been screwing over the American people for a
very long time.

You can do that any time you wish, you don't need the government to do it for you.


You want to trust greedy CEO's that's your business but I would rather they were burned at the stake.

The American dream is not just for the rich.

I don’t know about you, but I have NEVER worked for a poor person, they don’t pay all that well. You need to get over your affliction with “greedy CEO’s”. Of course they’re greedy…. And motivated, and results driven and the most important, very successful. Who would you rather see leading a company, some poor, un-motivated, underachieving schlep?

In case you missed it, businesses are in business to make money for their owners. In most cases, that would be the share holders. When a company quits making money, they tend to go out of business. Then the product or service they provide is no longer available.

[GetAClue]

The free market as you call it is what has created so much trouble the last few years.
If we do not regulate business then business screws everyone over. Now we need to clean up the regulatory system but we can not do without one.

Business has been screwing over the majority of this nation for generations so I see no reason to give them more power.

Medical coverage should not be based on how rich you are.
The working class should have good care not just what a few CEOs decide they should have.

We have not had a "free market" in this country since the late 1800's. That is the problem, too much government involvement in the market trying to make things fair for part of the population by putting up barriers to others. Try educating yourself thru economics’ classes instead of liberal talking points.

[mwillman]

Sorry but I dont by your love of American CEOs.

In most nations CEOs make around 20 times as much as the average worker.
In the US the average CEO makes over 450 times as much as the average worker.

The vast majority of the Wealthy didn't earn it they were given it at birth.

But all of that is not relevant.

What is relevant is the system we have now cost business huge sums. It costs average Americans large sums of money. If you have never had to deal with a major illness you don't really know how bad the system is. 50% of all bankruptcies are becuase of medical costs.

What we have does not work and giving more power to the people that have screwed it up is not the best solution.

[kres24GT]

Sorry but I dont by your love of American CEOs.

In most nations CEOs make around 20 times as much as the average worker.
In the US the average CEO makes over 450 times as much as the average worker.

The vast majority of the Wealthy didn't earn it they were given it at birth.

But all of that is not relevant.

What is relevant is the system we have now cost business huge sums. It costs average Americans large sums of money. If you have never had to deal with a major illness you don't really know how bad the system is. 50% of all bankruptcies are becuase of medical costs.

What we have does not work and giving more power to the people that have screwed it up is not the best solution.


Under your big Government solution CEOS make even more and care is more expensive. If you are for more government, you support Big Business and the CEOs.

[Life_Long_Dem!]

national or universal health care will NEVER happen, at least not in its true form and that is sad, mainly because it is a form of socialism and oh golly gee heaven forbid that ever happened in this country even though true socialism is NOTHING like communism or stalin, leninish like so many have been brainwashed about since the 1950's . todays socialism is a more democratic socialism that is against communist regimes.

[kres24GT]

national or universal health care will NEVER happen, at least not in its true form and that is sad, mainly because it is a form of socialism and oh golly gee heaven forbid that ever happened in this country even though true socialism is NOTHING like communism or stalin, leninish like so many have been brainwashed about since the 1950's . todays socialism is a more democratic socialism that is against communist regimes.


As someone who had nationalized government health care, I hope it never happens. The idea that we NEED government is of course a flawed one. We are all free to pitch i of our own free will and help whoever we deem necessary with their medical bills. Of course we are brainwashed to believe "only thought government and the sacrifice of freedom".

I will take freedom and the sacrifice that comes with it, and if anyone wants government provided health care, they are free to join the military service and receive it for themselves and their family.

[GetAClue]

Sorry but I dont by your love of American CEOs.

In most nations CEOs make around 20 times as much as the average worker.
In the US the average CEO makes over 450 times as much as the average worker.


If this fact upsets you, you have a couple of options. Get an education, go work for a corporation, work hard and try to become the CEO. Or, get rich, buy enough stock to become a majority share holder and set the CEO pay yourself. The beauty of either scenario is that in this country, you have the right to do either of them.


The vast majority of the Wealthy didn't earn it they were given it at birth.


Care to back that up with any facts? Link?


But all of that is not relevant.

What is relevant is the system we have now cost business huge sums. It costs average Americans large sums of money. If you have never had to deal with a major illness you don't really know how bad the system is. 50% of all bankruptcies are becuase of medical costs.


Not sure where you are going here, but how is CEO pay affecting your medical costs? I have family members that HAVE had major medical issues. Yea, it set them back but how is that anyone’s fault? That’s called life. Sometimes you get dealt a bad hand; you just have to play it.

But what you advocate is a system where everybody wins. Sorry, but life is not like that. You advocate a Utopia, but have not proven any method to get there. You propose setting bureaucracies that advance programs that have proven time and again to be failures, but continually reject an economic system that has made the United States the worlds most powerful and successful nation in the history of mankind.


What we have does not work and giving more power to the people that have screwed it up is not the best solution.

I can agree with that statement. What we have does not work. There is too much government interference in the market by politicians attempting to buy votes to remain in power. Trusting those same crooks in Congress and the White House will only lead us further down the road to ruin.

[mwillman]

First off very few people become CEOs, You can't just go to school and become one. While I support the concept of a meritocracy I also realize that we do not live in a fantasy land.

For every person that becomes a CEO(as an example) millions do not become a CEO. Society should not be designed around the comforts of the smallest minority in the society namely the wealthy.


The problem with your side is you want us to trust the people that already have had power and have already proven they don't care about people care but only about profits.

You are fighting for the status quo and the status quo doesn't work.

[kres24GT]

First off very few people become CEOs, You can't just go to school and become one. While I support the concept of a meritocracy I also realize that we do not live in a fantasy land.

For every person that becomes a CEO(as an example) millions do not become a CEO. Society should not be designed around the comforts of the smallest minority in the society namely the wealthy.


The problem with your side is you want us to trust the people that already have had power and have already proven they don't care about people care but only about profits.

You are fighting for the status quo and the status quo doesn't work.


Actually you want to do the exact same in trusting government. In a free market we aren't forced to trust anyone, in your system we must trust politicians and CEOs. No one here is fighting for status quo, not sure what you are talking about. Asking for less of the government that has made the system so broken is not status quo. Asking for more government is closer to status quo.

[mwillman]

We elect those that run the government.

We have no say in who runs the Insurance companies.

That is a huge difference.

Its called democracy.

[GetAClue]

First off very few people become CEOs, You can't just go to school and become one. While I support the concept of a meritocracy I also realize that we do not live in a fantasy land.

For every person that becomes a CEO(as an example) millions do not become a CEO. Society should not be designed around the comforts of the smallest minority in the society namely the wealthy.


The problem with your side is you want us to trust the people that already have had power and have already proven they don't care about people care but only about profits.

You are fighting for the status quo and the status quo doesn't work.

You completely missed the point. I don’t want to be a CEO and I am sure a majority of people would not if they knew the stresses involved. Also, in this country ANYONE can aspire to be anything they want to be. I would think that having the first black illegal alien to become president would demonstrate that.

The point is that you are labeling a group of people based on your bias. You need a villain to blame your failures upon and CEO’s fit the bill at the moment. You have fallen for Obama’s bait and switch maneuver. He needs you to focus on the “evil CEO’s and corporations” while he takes some of your freedoms from you.

The problem is that if his policies were really that good, he would not have to play that game with you. The fact that he is, is testament to how flawed his ideas really are.

[GetAClue]

We elect those that run the government.

We have no say in who runs the Insurance companies.

That is a huge difference.

Its called democracy.

Wrong. You have a choice with any private buisness. You either do buisness with them or you don't. You vote with your wallet.

[kres24GT]

We elect those that run the government.

We have no say in who runs the Insurance companies.

That is a huge difference.

Its called democracy.


The difference is government can force us to do things, insurance companies cannot unless they have the power of government behind them, which they currently do. No one represents me in Washington, so I want them making as few decisions as possible.

[kres24GT]

Wrong. You have a choice with any private buisness. You either do buisness with them or you don't. You vote with your wallet.

Yep, a lost art that has ruined this country. Voting with your dollars.

[mwillman]

Wrong. You have a choice with any private buisness. You either do buisness with them or you don't. You vote with your wallet.

I guess you know nothing about how the insurance industry works.
You just keep stating ideological nonsense.

Most people don't have much choice. First off private medical insurance is way to expansive for most people to afford so they take what ever the job they have gives them. That is not choice. That is more choice for CEOs and no choice for the worker.

Secondly most insurance contracts have tons of small writing which ends up meaning many people that do have a medical emergency end up in heavy debt even with insurance.

You keep arguing generalities that have almost nothing to do with reality.

[disrupter]

Just give people the option of a medicare for all plan & get the hell out of the way,
because there will be a stampede of people voting with their feet & pocketbooks.

Senator Baucus has gotten Millions from insurance companies, HMOs, drug pushers & all the other parasites who hide inside our so-called 'health-care' system.

[Smurf-Herder]

All I can say on this topic is - look how well the government has done running everything else.

I rest my case.

[mwillman]

All I can say on this topic is - look how well the government has done running everything else.

I rest my case.

that isnt an argument.

Look at how the Insurance companies have run it.

I rest my case.

[MintJulep]

There are nations that already have national insurance systems and
those governments did not take over everything and they do not have socialized medicine.For starters, there is no socialized system the size of the U.S. so the only comparison you can make is with a nation the size of one of our states. IOW, it's non-proportional.

Second, "national insurance" leads to a socialized model. Canada, for example, has banned private practice.

The whole basis of the subsized idea is that insurance companies will lower costs and stop making such huge profits at the expense of the care they will pay for. The whole basis of the subsidized idea is to put insurance companies out of business so the govt can turn it into a collective shithole like the DMV, etc. There should be a subsidized plan strictly for those in a certain income bracket -- not everyone. Everyone who can afford it should pay for it, expanding the pool of money which would lower premiums for everyone.

The Subsidized system does not fix anything it just means we are forced to pay Insurance companies even when they can drop us anytime they want. It means we pay into private insurance and they get to jack up co pays or deny service for any reason they want.Do you know what happens when the claims exceeds the amount of premiums taken in? The company goes out of business. An insurance policy is a LEGAL CONTRACT. They cannot deny service if the contract covers it -- it is illegal. What does "jack up co-pays" mean? You do realize the purpose of medical insurance is to prevent financial devastation, right? Not to have you pay $1.00 for a routine medical visit.

No Im sorry but the insurance companies are only out to make a profit and they will do what ever it takes to make that profit.

I do not trust them and I do not think we will ever save money or help those that have no health care as long as we rely on private insurance.You clearly know very little about health insurance but I can assure you, a socialized system will kill more people than it will help. It would mean govt bureaucrats would make medical decisions --read national database-- and they could decide who was most "cost effective" to receive treatments and prolong their lives. The elderly and very sick would be the ones to suffer the most as we would have a government-mandated eugenics program, of sorts.

[dylanmurphy]

I love how most people in the United States think that Congress is a bunch of morons and liars, which they are...

And we want to give them the keys to health care?

Really?

Is there anything else to say?

[mwillman]

You make a lot of judgments with little in the way of facts.

You just keep spewing the party line which is nothing more then a collection of ideological generalities.

I dont buy your non educated guesses as to what the future would hold if we had a national health insurance plan.

What Canada did is not what we will do.

[MintJulep]

You make a lot of judgments with little in the way of facts.

You just keep spewing the party line which is nothing more then a collection of ideological generalities.

I dont buy your non educated guesses as to what the future would hold if we had a national health insurance plan.

What Canada did is not what we will do.Tell me, what did I get wrong? You don't know what you're talking about.

[mwillman]

For starters, there is no socialized system the size of the U.S. so the only comparison you can make is with a nation the size of one of our states. IOW, it's non-proportional.


We are the only industrialized nation on earth that doesn't have some form of national health care. So pick any country you want. This argument is absurd.


Second, "national insurance" leads to a socialized model. Canada, for example, has banned private practice.


This is just your supposition, you have no evidence for this.

Conservatism leads to the dehumanization of the masses. See I can make suppositions as well.


The whole basis of the subsidized idea is to put insurance companies out of business so the govt can turn it into a collective shithole like the DMV, etc. There should be a subsidized plan strictly for those in a certain income bracket -- not everyone. Everyone who can afford it should pay for it, expanding the pool of money which would lower premiums for everyone.


Again just a bunch of nonsense. You are making assumptions as to what will happen with no evidence to support it or any logical explanations. Its just badly written fiction.


Do you know what happens when the claims exceeds the amount of premiums taken in? The company goes out of business. An insurance policy is a LEGAL CONTRACT. They cannot deny service if the contract covers it -- it is illegal. What does "jack up co-pays" mean? You do realize the purpose of medical insurance is to prevent financial devastation, right? Not to have you pay $1.00 for a routine medical visit.

Most people are healthy most of the time. That's how insurance companies make the huge profits they make. You really arnt very bright.

If you don't even know what co-payments are then you don't know anything.


You clearly know very little about health insurance but I can assure you, a socialized system will kill more people than it will help. It would mean govt bureaucrats would make medical decisions --read national database-- and they could decide who was most "cost effective" to receive treatments and prolong their lives. The elderly and very sick would be the ones to suffer the most as we would have a government-mandated eugenics program, of sorts.

I would say you have proven that you know almost nothing about the health insurance. You might want to do a little more study before you make up arguments about things you know nothing about.

If I wanted to read Armageddon fiction I would buy it in a story not read it in a political blog.

[MintJulep]

We are the only industrialized nation on earth that doesn't have some form of national health care. So pick any country you want. This argument is absurd.And we have the finest healthcare system in the world because of it.

It isn't a coincidence prominent heads-of-state from other countries travel to the U.S. for medical procedures.

Socialism kills innovation and incentive and you are left with an overpriced, low quality product. I direct you to any government-run agency other than the military for proof of that. I prefer to retain my right to choose my doctor and level of coverage.

This is just your supposition, you have no evidence for this.Sure I do. At one point, Canadian doctors did not participate with the gubmint plan and were running "cash only" offices. This is why the government banned private practice. The same thing would happen here, especially considering we already have a physician shortage.

The gubment will set a fixed rate to pay all physicians the same for office visits and procedures, let's say, $30 for a regular office visit. Out of that, the doctor has to pay overhead, salaries, med mal insurance, etc. It would be much more lucrative to spend a day seeing patients who are willing to fork out the $60 for an office visit. And make no mistake, those people do exist.

Again just a bunch of nonsense. You are making assumptions as to what will happen with no evidence to support it or any logical explanations. Its just badly written fiction.It's common sense. If the govt offers "free" insurance, the insurance companies will go out of business. This is the plan of the teleprompting Marxist. Complete government control. He's taken over the banks, the car companies, working on the healthcare system.

You do know what fascism is, don't you?

Most people are healthy most of the time. That's how insurance companies make the huge profits they make. You really arnt very bright.And the people who aren't rack up HUGE claims. Again, if the claims exceed the premiums paid in, what happens, mwillman?

If you don't even know what co-payments are then you don't know anything.Co-payments are part of the crappy HMO plans that Ted Kennedy authored. You pay a "co-pay" for an office visit, etc. A set rate for an office visit, no matter how complex. They are usually $15-25.

Now, please explain in detail what you meant by "jacking up co-pays".

I would say you have proven that you know almost nothing about the health insurance. You might want to do a little more study before you make up arguments about things you know nothing about.

If I wanted to read Armageddon fiction I would buy it in a story not read it in a political blog.I know much more than you do about insurance. Please explain in detail how this Messianic national insurance plan would work. Show me what you know.

[Cat slave]

I love how most people in the United States think that Congress is a bunch of morons and liars, which they are...

And we want to give them the keys to health care?

Really?

Is there anything else to say?

Exactly!:disbelief: Whats their approval rating now? No ones mentioned
that since Pelosi stuck her foot in her lying mouth.

[dylanmurphy]

It is seriously frightening. Has anyone heard Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid talk?

They are NOT bright people. They are well liked by their constituents and now have enough name recognition to keep their jobs. But does anyone actually think they "care" about us? Really, do you?

Also, again, they are stupid, and the idea of them putting together a health care plan is so funny that it is frightening.

[Cat slave]

It is seriously frightening. Has anyone heard Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid talk?

They are NOT bright people. They are well liked by their constituents and now have enough name recognition to keep their jobs. But does anyone actually think they "care" about us? Really, do you?

Also, again, they are stupid, and the idea of them putting together a health care plan is so funny that it is frightening.


Yes, I have seen them talk and it is beyond belief that anyone cannot see
through them for what they really are.

Of course they dont care about us or anyone else unless they can be
used as a tool to acheive their agendas....like pawns on a chess board.

We are in deep ****!

[mwillman]

And we have the finest healthcare system in the world because of it.

It isn't a coincidence prominent heads-of-state from other countries travel to the U.S. for medical procedures.


There is a big difference between medical technology and a medical system.

Yes the rich world wide can come here and if they can afford it they can get the best treatment in the world but the average American is forced to take insurance policies that create bankruptcy and often wont even treat them becuase it costs to much and that's not even talking about the millions of Americans who cant even get insurance for prior conditions of one of the many other reasons the insurance companies deny coverage.


Socialism kills innovation and incentive and you are left with an overpriced, low quality product. I direct you to any government-run agency other than the military for proof of that. I prefer to retain my right to choose my doctor and level of coverage.

Sure I do. At one point, Canadian doctors did not participate with the gubmint plan and were running "cash only" offices. This is why the government banned private practice. The same thing would happen here, especially considering we already have a physician shortage.


Blah blah blah, more of your no proof conjecture,

Instead of telling me what you think the system in Canada is like why dont you ask Canadians. The ones that vote by 90% to say that the politician that brought about national medical coverage is thier greatest politician.


The gubment will set a fixed rate to pay all physicians the same for office visits and procedures, let's say, $30 for a regular office visit. Out of that, the doctor has to pay overhead, salaries, med mal insurance, etc. It would be much more lucrative to spend a day seeing patients who are willing to fork out the $60 for an office visit. And make no mistake, those people do exist.


Insurance companies already fix prices.
The rest is again just your fiction of the future and its not real.


It's common sense. If the govt offers "free" insurance, the insurance companies will go out of business. This is the plan of the teleprompting Marxist. Complete government control. He's taken over the banks, the car companies, working on the healthcare system.

You do know what fascism is, don't you?

And the people who aren't rack up HUGE claims. Again, if the claims exceed the premiums paid in, what happens, mwillman?


Again do you have an original thought every thing out of your mouth so to speak is just generalized nonsense. Really get an education you sound like a beauty pageant contestant answering some inane question about the book of revelations.


Co-payments are part of the crappy HMO plans that Ted Kennedy authored. You pay a "co-pay" for an office visit, etc. A set rate for an office visit, no matter how complex. They are usually $15-25.

Now, please explain in detail what you meant by "jacking up co-pays".

I know much more than you do about insurance. Please explain in detail how this Messianic national insurance plan would work. Show me what you know.


This just proves you have no fucking clue. People can have co-pays for all kinds of things like hospital stays, medication, tests, not only that but often they have limits that are easily gone over during a bad illness.

Again 50% of all bankruptcies are medical related. That means people are not getting covered when it counts.

I know much more than you do about insurance. Please explain in detail how this Messianic national insurance plan would work. Show me what you know.[/QUOTE]


Please LL get a book, read something, your arguments are so flat they could cut diamond. You know nothing about the real world and as such you have no real argument to make.

All you do is repeat the fear government line over and over again. You are boring me.

[kres24GT]

mwillman, how much of your money do you personally give to help others with their medical bills?

[SeniorChief]

mwillman, how much of your money do you personally give to help others with their medical bills?

You're assuming he works.

I assume he lives in a trailer with Mother.

[GetAClue]

Once again mwillman proves that it is pointless to argue with an idiot. At some point, it becomes difficult to tell the difference between the two. So to ensure that know one is confused, I will drop out of this one. Anyone with the slightest bit of intelligence will be able to discern the points in the discussion and come to a reasonable conclusion. And the others will side with the one that argues purely on the basis of hating rich people.

[SeniorChief]

President Obama has been promising to fix the health care system in this nation but now he is letting the giant insurance companies bully him into a half assed approach that will not work and will only cost this nation more for less service.



What would President MWillman do? That's the question. Pretend you're President MWillman for the moment. Please enlighten us by fleshing out - in its entirety - President MWillman's complete plan to nationalize health care.

We await your plan!

[kres24GT]

mwillman is a fascist, only a fascist of epic proportion ca look at what government interference in health care has done and scream "more please". He wants a police state and will sacrifice anything to get it.

[SeniorChief]

mwillman is a fascist, only a fascist of epic proportion ca look at what government interference in health care has done and scream "more please". He wants a police state and will sacrifice anything to get it.

Here's a group of young boys reading about their nation's free health care promises for all people of their nation

http://www.ushmm.org/propaganda/assets/images/500x/hitler-youth-meeting.jpg

From the Socialist (NAZI) roots...

"From November 1918 through January 1919, Germany was governed by the Council of People's Commissioners. It was extraordinarily active, and issued a large number of decrees. At the same time, its main activities were confined to certain spheres: the eight-hour workday, domestic labour reform, agricultural labour reform, right of civil-service associations, local municipality social welfare relief (split between Reich and States) and important national health insurance, re-instatement of demobilised workers, protection from arbitrary dismissal with appeal as a right, regulated wage agreement, and universal suffrage from 20 years of age in all types of elections—local and national."

Wow! This para above sounds Obamaesque!!!

Seig Fucking Heil!

[mwillman]

Look a bunch of right wing losers who only have one argument to everything.

The plan is to nationalize health insurance not health care but I understand that you uneducated country bumpkins dont have a fucking clue what the real world is like.

All you have to do is leave your stupid survival camps and stop playing with guns long enought to actually read a book or maybe even pay a fucking tension to the criminals running the shit ass system we have now.

The only facists around here are you right wing nut jobs who think business should have total freedom but people should live by your lame as social standards.

So to conclude eat my ass you bunch of right wing fucking Nazis.

When you can take your heads our of the Corporate asses that you so love to put them in you might have a clue about the world you live in.

[kres24GT]

Look a bunch of right wing losers who only have one argument to everything.

The plan is to nationalize health insurance not health care but I understand that you uneducated country bumpkins dont have a fucking clue what the real world is like.

All you have to do is leave your stupid survival camps and stop playing with guns long enought to actually read a book or maybe even pay a fucking tension to the criminals running the shit ass system we have now.

The only facists around here are you right wing nut jobs who think business should have total freedom but people should live by your lame as social standards.

So to conclude eat my ass you bunch of right wing fucking Nazis.

When you can take your heads our of the Corporate asses that you so love to put them in you might have a clue about the world you live in.


Your fascist plan for health care is extremely right wing.

[SeniorChief]

Look a bunch of right wing losers who only have one argument to everything.

The plan is to nationalize health insurance not health care but I understand that you uneducated country bumpkins dont have a fucking clue what the real world is like.

All you have to do is leave your stupid survival camps and stop playing with guns long enought to actually read a book or maybe even pay a fucking tension to the criminals running the shit ass system we have now.

The only facists around here are you right wing nut jobs who think business should have total freedom but people should live by your lame as social standards.

So to conclude eat my ass you bunch of right wing fucking Nazis.

When you can take your heads our of the Corporate asses that you so love to put them in you might have a clue about the world you live in.

This is your plan?

It's fourth grade work, Jethro.

[doctordog]

Look a bunch of right wing losers who only have one argument to everything.

The plan is to nationalize health insurance not health care but I understand that you uneducated country bumpkins dont have a fucking clue what the real world is like.

All you have to do is leave your stupid survival camps and stop playing with guns long enought to actually read a book or maybe even pay a fucking tension to the criminals running the shit ass system we have now.

The only facists around here are you right wing nut jobs who think business should have total freedom but people should live by your lame as social standards.

So to conclude eat my ass you bunch of right wing fucking Nazis.

When you can take your heads our of the Corporate asses that you so love to put them in you might have a clue about the world you live in.

You are so Pelosi!:lmao2:

[GetAClue]

Look a bunch of right wing losers who only have one argument to everything.

The plan is to nationalize health insurance not health care but I understand that you uneducated country bumpkins dont have a fucking clue what the real world is like.

All you have to do is leave your stupid survival camps and stop playing with guns long enought to actually read a book or maybe even pay a fucking tension to the criminals running the shit ass system we have now.

The only facists around here are you right wing nut jobs who think business should have total freedom but people should live by your lame as social standards.

So to conclude eat my ass you bunch of right wing fucking Nazis.

When you can take your heads our of the Corporate asses that you so love to put them in you might have a clue about the world you live in.

What gets me is liberals accuse conservatives of being hateful. Wow, talk about hypocritical. I try to stick with facts and logical arguements, but the responses from liberals is usually way over the top. Here is an example of that.

[mwillman]

Of course your hateful.

It shows in everything you stand for.
It shows in the type of people that stand with you.
It shows in your total disregard for anyone that doesn't think like you do.
It shows in your total disregard for the less fortunate.
It shows in your unwillingness to recognize 400 years of bigotry.
It shows in your unwillingness to stand for the people of this nation.
It shows in the words you choose and words you don't choose.

You can pretend that your not a bunch of greedy hating war mongers but your actions and desires speak volumes.

[disrupter]

What the majority of the American people want is called DEMOCRACY.

The people want Single Payer.

You can't handle that?

Why not quit being a corporate whore like that Multi-Million dollar bitch baucus.

[GetAClue]

What the majority of the American people want is called DEMOCRACY.

What the people want is a Representative Republic, NOT a Democracy. However, I am afraid that there are too many here that don't realize that. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb trying to decide what to have for dinner. A Republic is the same system with a well armed lamb.



The people want Single Payer.

You can't handle that?

Why not quit being a corporate whore like that Multi-Million dollar bitch baucus.
You contradict yourself. Democracy implies personal freedoms and liberties. However, you would mandate that the state become responsible for you and your family in the single payer system, thereby stripping you of your right to decide what is best for you and your family. Make up your mind, which way do you want it? You are advocating a nanny state with your health care in the hands of people that cannot seem to be able to even pay their own taxes. The largest single block of liars and crooks reside in Washington and you want to let them be in charge of your health care.

[GetAClue]

Of course your hateful.

It shows in everything you stand for.
It shows in the type of people that stand with you.

What type of people do I stand with? Those that agree it is up to the individual to succeed or fail on his/her own?


It shows in your total disregard for anyone that doesn't think like you do.

How is that? By calling them names and posting responses totally void of facts or argument? Sounds like someone I have read from San Francisco.


It shows in your total disregard for the less fortunate.

But I beg to differ. I don’t disregard them; I just feel that by providing for their existence perpetuates a cycle that is meant to keep them in poverty. I don’t disregard them; I simply feel there is a better way to get them on their feet instead of the welfare system that has proven to be a failure for the past 70 years.


It shows in your unwillingness to recognize 400 years of bigotry.

Please show me where I have done this. Provide the post where I failed to recognize 400 years of bigotry. If anyone fails to see bigotry, it is those on the left. They feel that bigotry is a one way street and the sole domain of the white race. I have pointed out time and again the hypocrisy of this argument.


It shows in your unwillingness to stand for the people of this nation.

I am more that willing to stand for the people of this nation unlike you that would choose to caudal terrorists at the expense of innocent Americans.


It shows in the words you choose and words you don't choose.

The words I chose are respectful to those that I respect. You are the only one in this forum that I have ever used disparaging words with, and I believe others will agree that you have a unique ability to bring that upon yourself.



You can pretend that your not a bunch of greedy hating war mongers but your actions and desires speak volumes.
And your hateful, anger filled, illogical and fact less posts speak volumes to your character and intelligence.

[mwillman]

Democracy means the people of the nation choice the leaders.

personal freedom and liberties are a choice the people make.

The largest group of liars and thief's are on wall street then Washington.

Your hate of anything government is programmed into but has little in the way of real rational thought behind it.

I'm not saying they are perfect but your expectations are so far out of whack with reality as to be laughable.

[GetAClue]

Democracy means the people of the nation choice the leaders.

Wrong. Democracy is the rule of the majority over the minority. We are not and have never been a Democracy, we have a Representative Republic. Go and educate yourself instead of making absurd comments.


personal freedom and liberties are a choice the people make.

Wrong again! Personal freedoms and liberties are endowed upon us by our creator… that is if you believe the Constitution. In this country, you don’t choose to have freedoms and liberties, you are born with them. The liberals on the other hand believe they are doled out by the government.


The largest group of liars and thief's are on wall street then Washington.

Those that work on Wall Street are accountable to the customers and share holders that vote with their money. They don’t need to wait every 2, 4 or 6 years to cast their vote. Their voting is immediate and fortunes are made or lost by decisions that they make.

Washington on the other hand, has a notorious record of looking out for their own self interests. They depend on the short term memory of the American people, or in the case of Nazi Piglosi, the blind ignorance of her constituency.


Your hate of anything government is programmed into but has little in the way of real rational thought behind it.

Wrong once again. I do not hate government; I just want them kept in check and not to overstep their bounds. The government is charged with providing for the rule of law, national defense and to maintain the infrastructure of this nation. They have no business in the Banking, Auto or Insurance business. And when they become involved, they begin to do things that benefits themselves instead of what is right for the country.


I'm not saying they are perfect but your expectations are so far out of whack with reality as to be laughable.
Not sure what to make of this statement. I don’t know whose expectations you are referring too, but if it is my expectations of our government, then see above.

[doctordog]

Democracy means the people of the nation choice the leaders.

personal freedom and liberties are a choice the people make.

The largest group of liars and thief's are on wall street then Washington.

Your hate of anything government is programmed into but has little in the way of real rational thought behind it.

I'm not saying they are perfect but your expectations are so far out of whack with reality as to be laughable.

You left out that large group of liars and thieves in the silicon valley.

[mwillman]

What type of people do I stand with? Those that agree it is up to the individual to succeed or fail on his/her own?


Well let see most religious fanatics vote republican, then theres the KKK and all the other hate filled groups that seem to think the only good leaders are old white men. Individual freedom is jsut a buzz word for freedom for white men to do what ever they want and screw the rest.


How is that? By calling them names and posting responses totally void of facts or argument? Sounds like someone I have read from San Francisco.


I started this thread with no name calling. You right wing nut jobs are so fucked up they cant argue with facts so they resort to name calling and stupid statements. When they start with the stupidity I just show you fools that your not the only ones that can come up with good insults. If you dont like it then dont do it.


But I beg to differ. I don’t disregard them; I just feel that by providing for their existence perpetuates a cycle that is meant to keep them in poverty. I don’t disregard them; I simply feel there is a better way to get them on their feet instead of the welfare system that has proven to be a failure for the past 70 years.


Do you have any arguments that belong in the 21st century. Welfare was reformed and it was done by a democratic president and a republican congress. So your whole welfare argument is about 20 year to late.


Please show me where I have done this. Provide the post where I failed to recognize 400 years of bigotry. If anyone fails to see bigotry, it is those on the left. They feel that bigotry is a one way street and the sole domain of the white race. I have pointed out time and again the hypocrisy of this argument.


The point is as long as you dont recognize the valid anger that many minorities in this nation have. You are ignoring the truth and when you do that you perpetuate the continued misunderstanding between the people of this nation. Racism is not gone just becuase we have a black president.


I am more that willing to stand for the people of this nation unlike you that would choose to caudal terrorists at the expense of innocent Americans.


You dont stand with the people of this nation. Your desires and policies help only the rich as is shown by the major drops in the middle class under republican rule.



The words I chose are respectful to those that I respect. You are the only one in this forum that I have ever used disparaging words with, and I believe others will agree that you have a unique ability to bring that upon yourself.


See there you go with your one sided mind set. If the only people you can show respect to are those that agree with you then all you are is an arrogant prick.


And your hateful, anger filled, illogical and fact less posts speak volumes to your character and intelligence.


You wouldn't no logical if it kicked you in the balls. The republican/ conservative ideology is nothing more then a collection of half assed opinions based on the emotion greed and self centeredness.

If you had character and intelligence then I would care what you thought but so far all I see is another Rush puppet who is so blinded by ideology you cant see your hand in front of your face let alone understand national issues.

[kres24GT]

What the majority of the American people want is called DEMOCRACY.

The people want Single Payer.

You can't handle that?

Why not quit being a corporate whore like that Multi-Million dollar bitch baucus.


You thing majority should dictate? Wow. Scary. That's what happened in CA with Prop 8. Fascism at its finest. Also I guarantee the majority of Americans do not even understand the concept of single payer universal health care. Half are not educated enough to do so.

[doctordog]

Well let see most religious fanatics vote republican, then theres the KKK and all the other hate filled groups that seem to think the only good leaders are old white men. Individual freedom is jsut a buzz word for freedom for white men to do what ever they want and screw the rest.



I started this thread with no name calling. You right wing nut jobs are so fucked up they cant argue with facts so they resort to name calling and stupid statements. When they start with the stupidity I just show you fools that your not the only ones that can come up with good insults. If you dont like it then dont do it.



Do you have any arguments that belong in the 21st century. Welfare was reformed and it was done by a democratic president and a republican congress. So your whole welfare argument is about 20 year to late.



The point is as long as you dont recognize the valid anger that many minorities in this nation have. You are ignoring the truth and when you do that you perpetuate the continued misunderstanding between the people of this nation. Racism is not gone just becuase we have a black president.



You dont stand with the people of this nation. Your desires and policies help only the rich as is shown by the major drops in the middle class under republican rule.




See there you go with your one sided mind set. If the only people you can show respect to are those that agree with you then all you are is an arrogant prick.



You wouldn't no logical if it kicked you in the balls. The republican/ conservative ideology is nothing more then a collection of half assed opinions based on the emotion greed and self centeredness.

If you had character and intelligence then I would care what you thought but so far all I see is another Rush puppet who is so blinded by ideology you cant see your hand in front of your face let alone understand national issues.

Speaking of puppets, does Pelosi pull your strings?

[GetAClue]

Well let see most religious fanatics vote republican, then theres the KKK and all the other hate filled groups that seem to think the only good leaders are old white men. Individual freedom is jsut a buzz word for freedom for white men to do what ever they want and screw the rest.

Hmmm. What party was Robert Byrd in, you know a pronounced member of the KKK. Besides, who said I was a Republican. I am a conservative and have not been in step with the Republican party for some time.

Individual freedom may just be a buzz word to you, but we conservatives take it seriously. You advocate large government at the expense of personal freedoms. I and most conservatives advocate the freedom to fail or succeed on your own merits. I don’t want a helping hand from the government. I want government to provide those services that I outlined in the previous post. You want the government to hold your hand from cradle to grave.


I started this thread with no name calling. You right wing nut jobs are so fucked up they cant argue with facts so they resort to name calling and stupid statements. When they start with the stupidity I just show you fools that your not the only ones that can come up with good insults. If you dont like it then dont do it.

Not sure who started what, but I do not start the name calling. And if you go thru any post I have made in this forum, you will not find any profanity.


Do you have any arguments that belong in the 21st century. Welfare was reformed and it was done by a democratic president and a republican congress. So your whole welfare argument is about 20 year to late.

Welfare was reformed and then those same reforms were just “un-done” by your messiah. Now we are back to square one.


The point is as long as you dont recognize the valid anger that many minorities in this nation have. You are ignoring the truth and when you do that you perpetuate the continued misunderstanding between the people of this nation. Racism is not gone just becuase we have a black president.

I recognize the anger that exists. But I also recognize the lack of personal responsibility that exists in some cultures in this country. Some would like to play the victim and blame everyone else for their lack of personal responsibility and motivation. Jesse Jackson has built a fortune on this mentality.


You dont stand with the people of this nation. Your desires and policies help only the rich as is shown by the major drops in the middle class under republican rule.

That is where we disagree. I want everyone to succeed. I do not have a vendetta against the poor nor do I want to provide for the rich. I just believe that policies that favor one group over the other will help no one except those making the policy. You cannot make poor people rich by making rich people poor. You really need to get over your anger issues with the rich.


See there you go with your one sided mind set. If the only people you can show respect to are those that agree with you then all you are is an arrogant prick.

Well I’m sorry, but respect is earned and by your constant name calling and lack of logical arguments, you have not gained mine. You’re inability to carry on a discussion without calling people stupid or declaring that you don’t care what they think is evidence to your feeling of self importance and superiority. Look who is now calling someone names!


You wouldn't no logical if it kicked you in the balls. The republican/ conservative ideology is nothing more then a collection of half assed opinions based on the emotion greed and self centeredness.

I don’t know liberal logic, but as to actual logic used to come to intelligent conclusions, yes I do. My job depends upon it. And I have been very successful in that endeavor.


If you had character and intelligence then I would care what you thought but so far all I see is another Rush puppet who is so blinded by ideology you cant see your hand in front of your face let alone understand national issues.
I am no Rush puppet. I think for myself and come to my own conclusions. When I was younger, I was somewhat of a liberal. I believed that it was the responsibility of government to provide for those that were in need. However, as I grew older and started a family, I also grew wiser. I learned from my experiences. And part of that learning was that the more you help someone, the more they will let you and cease to do for themselves.

Usually wisdom comes with age and as Winston Churchill said, “If at twenty you are not a liberal you have no heart. If at 30 you are not a conservative, you have no brain.”

[mwillman]

Hmmm. What party was Robert Byrd in, you know a pronounced member of the KKK. Besides, who said I was a Republican. I am a conservative and have not been in step with the Republican party for some time.

Again with the 20th century thinking. The democratic and republican parties are not the same as they were in the 60s when I suspect is when you were a young adult. Nixons southern strategy worked and now the republican party's base is the bible belt, the old Dixiecrat's, and rural folk who think their small towns should be the ones dictating national policy.




Individual freedom may just be a buzz word to you, but we conservatives take it seriously. You advocate large government at the expense of personal freedoms. I and most conservatives advocate the freedom to fail or succeed on your own merits. I don’t want a helping hand from the government. I want government to provide those services that I outlined in the previous post. You want the government to hold your hand from cradle to grave.


I am all for individual freedom. I am also for a nation that does not sell it self to the insurance industries.

I do not beleive in one individuals right to tell me how to live be they either politician or CEO. You preach individual freedom and then support a system that creates worker bees for the rich with little to no freedom. A meritocracy doesnt mean those that do the best get to walk over the masses that they defeated.


Not sure who started what, but I do not start the name calling. And if you go thru any post I have made in this forum, you will not find any profanity.


I dont really care if profanity bothers you, I grew up in the real world and that is not the nice polite lies of your small town. Glass houses comes to mind. And don't act innocent I can find threads where you are a name calling ass with little effort.



Welfare was reformed and then those same reforms were just “un-done” by your messiah. Now we are back to square one.


what are you talking about. Please give me a real example of this.


I recognize the anger that exists. But I also recognize the lack of personal responsibility that exists in some cultures in this country. Some would like to play the victim and blame everyone else for their lack of personal responsibility and motivation. Jesse Jackson has built a fortune on this mentality.


Again what you are saying is nothing more then the naive talk of a country bumpkin. Its about giving everyone the chance to succeed not just those born with silver spoons in thier white mouths.


That is where we disagree. I want everyone to succeed. I do not have a vendetta against the poor nor do I want to provide for the rich. I just believe that policies that favor one group over the other will help no one except those making the policy. You cannot make poor people rich by making rich people poor. You really need to get over your anger issues with the rich.


The republican system does not help everyone succeed it helps rich white men succeed. As much as you deny it the facts are plain.


Well I’m sorry, but respect is earned and by your constant name calling and lack of logical arguments, you have not gained mine. You’re inability to carry on a discussion without calling people stupid or declaring that you don’t care what they think is evidence to your feeling of self importance and superiority. Look who is now calling someone names!


I dont care about your respect. I have had plenty of conversations without name calling but if you stupid then your fucking stupid and that's not my fault.


I don’t know liberal logic, but as to actual logic used to come to intelligent conclusions, yes I do. My job depends upon it. And I have been very successful in that endeavor.


Then you should know sophistry when you see it. Arguments that are built on false premise. For instance any argument that says the republican party is for the people of this nation. That is patently false, they only people the modern republican party supports is rich old white guys, crazy bible belters who think Armageddon is on the way, and out of date country folk who think the world is still some Victorian dream world.



I am no Rush puppet. I think for myself and come to my own conclusions. When I was younger, I was somewhat of a liberal. I believed that it was the responsibility of government to provide for those that were in need. However, as I grew older and started a family, I also grew wiser. I learned from my experiences. And part of that learning was that the more you help someone, the more they will let you and cease to do for themselves.


What you grew is more self centered, what you lost is your empathy for others. You are what you hated when you were young and you rationalize it with your age. You can live 200 years and never learn the right things.


Usually wisdom comes with age and as Winston Churchill said, “If at twenty you are not a liberal you have no heart. If at 30 you are not a conservative, you have no brain.”


I would say that if you are a republican by the time your forty then you failed and lost the heart and soul you were given at birth. If you must quote british aristocrats to support your argument then you have already sold your soul to what we revolted against as a nation.

[bridge buff]

Look a bunch of right wing losers who only have one argument to everything.

The plan is to nationalize health insurance not health care but I understand that you uneducated country bumpkins dont have a fucking clue what the real world is like.

All you have to do is leave your stupid survival camps and stop playing with guns long enought to actually read a book or maybe even pay a fucking tension to the criminals running the shit ass system we have now.

The only facists around here are you right wing nut jobs who think business should have total freedom but people should live by your lame as social standards.

So to conclude eat my ass you bunch of right wing fucking Nazis.

When you can take your heads our of the Corporate asses that you so love to put them in you might have a clue about the world you live in.
U
I think You have a point. I read most of the program that was up for consideration and think it should be considered. No one can say that our medical care is without problems. The one thing in our capitalistic society that can't be put on a "Whatever the market will bear" system is health care. How much is a person's life and health worth? I don't like the government getting involved in every facit of our lives and don't know who would control prices but to refuse to consider an alternative to what we have is not realistic. By the way mwillman are you are sure you're the original and not some improved imitation. J.P.Bill

[disrupter]

The overwhelming majority of Americans want a single payer system.

End of Story.

[GetAClue]

The overwhelming majority of Americans want a single payer system.

End of Story.

The overwelming majority of Americans favored slavery in the early 1800's. So what?

[kres24GT]

The overwhelming majority of Americans want a single payer system.

End of Story.


Wow, that is scary that people believe majority should rule. The majority of Americans don't understand single payer system, so this is also false.

[kres24GT]

mwillman is one of the dumbest posters here, there a re certainly well thought out and legitimate discussions to be had on universal health care, mwillman didn't make a single valid point, nor can he comprehends simple facts by others. There are a lot of dumbasses here, mwillman rivals frank as the dumbest here.

[GetAClue]

Again with the 20th century thinking. The democratic and republican parties are not the same as they were in the 60s when I suspect is when you were a young adult. Nixons southern strategy worked and now the republican party's base is the bible belt, the old Dixiecrat's, and rural folk who think their small towns should be the ones dictating national policy.

In what way does this response begin to address the issues that I brought up? You keep referring to Republicans in your posts. I agree that the Republicans are out of touch, but it is with their base. They are moving to more moderate positions and are loosing elections because of it. You can hardly tell a Republican from a Democrat anymore.


I am all for individual freedom. I am also for a nation that does not sell it self to the insurance industries.

I do not beleive in one individuals right to tell me how to live be they either politician or CEO. You preach individual freedom and then support a system that creates worker bees for the rich with little to no freedom. A meritocracy doesnt mean those that do the best get to walk over the masses that they defeated.

You may claim you are for individual freedoms, but you consistently contradict that claim with your positions about letting government run your life.


I dont really care if profanity bothers you, I grew up in the real world and that is not the nice polite lies of your small town. Glass houses comes to mind. And don't act innocent I can find threads where you are a name calling ass with little effort.

If you wish to use profanity, that does not bother me. I was simply stating that I do not employ that tactic. If you do, so be it. It is your choice. I’m a grown up and can take it. Just don’t accuse me of something I don’t do.

And if you can find where I have been name calling, other than calling you an ignorant fool, please do so.


what are you talking about. Please give me a real example of this.

The Republicans passed major welfare reform during the Clinton administration. These same reforms have now been reversed by Obama. Look it up.


Again what you are saying is nothing more then the naive talk of a country bumpkin. Its about giving everyone the chance to succeed not just those born with silver spoons in thier white mouths.

Once again, you claim the high ground base on geography. I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth and do not favor those that have been. I simply believe the best way to advance people from the depths of poverty is not to give them handouts, but to provide incentive an opportunities. We have been providing handouts in the form of Welfare for 70 years now and the percentage of the population that lives below the poverty line keep going up. We are paying people to be poor and they are responding by creating more poor people.


The republican system does not help everyone succeed it helps rich white men succeed. As much as you deny it the facts are plain.

Once again, you refer to the Republican system You are correct. They are just like Democrats now, looking out only for themselves by passing policies aimed at buying votes with the false premise of helping those most in need. Conservatives on the other hand, have been out of the equation since the Congress led by Newt Gingrich.


I dont care about your respect. I have had plenty of conversations without name calling but if you stupid then your fucking stupid and that's not my fault.

Good thing, because you do everything you can to ensure you don’t gain it. But once again, you resort to calling someone that disagrees with your position stupid. It is the ploy of the stupid to do this.


Then you should know sophistry when you see it. Arguments that are built on false premise. For instance any argument that says the republican party is for the people of this nation. That is patently false, they only people the modern republican party supports is rich old white guys, crazy bible belters who think Armageddon is on the way, and out of date country folk who think the world is still some Victorian dream world.

Same old tired argument. Show me how Conservative values fail. As stated above, I agree with you in part about the Republicans.


What you grew is more self centered, what you lost is your empathy for others. You are what you hated when you were young and you rationalize it with your age. You can live 200 years and never learn the right things.

So I take it you still live in Fantasy Land. But instead of just spewing about what others should do with their money, put your money where your mouth is and donate it. Until you do that, you have no credibility with any of your positions.


I would say that if you are a republican by the time your forty then you failed and lost the heart and soul you were given at birth. If you must quote british aristocrats to support your argument then you have already sold your soul to what we revolted against as a nation.
Once again, you confuse Republican with Conservative. You must have a reading comprehension problem. Seek help.

[mwillman]

Every right wing poster on this forums is an idiot.

KRes is the dumbest poster I have read in my life.

GetAClue is lost in a another time with no clue about the real world.

Conservative/Republican is the same fucking thing no matter how many times you try to distance yourself from Bush. You are all just stupid greedy ingnorant fools who should just stay in your small towns and shut the fuck up.


P.S. All your right wing losers can fuck off.

[GetAClue]

Every right wing poster on this forums is an idiot.

KRes is the dumbest poster I have read in my life.

GetAClue is lost in a another time with no clue about the real world.

Conservative/Republican is the same fucking thing no matter how many times you try to distance yourself from Bush. You are all just stupid greedy ingnorant fools who should just stay in your small towns and shut the fuck up.


P.S. All your right wing losers can fuck off.

Thank you. That post says it all. When liberals have lost the argument, they resort to name calling and telling the other party to shut up. It’s a pure emotional response to logical positions.

mwillman, you are too easy of a target. But I do enjoy reading your posts. Please keep them up; they are good for a laugh.

[doctordog]

Every right wing poster on this forums is an idiot.

KRes is the dumbest poster I have read in my life.

GetAClue is lost in a another time with no clue about the real world.

Conservative/Republican is the same fucking thing no matter how many times you try to distance yourself from Bush. You are all just stupid greedy ingnorant fools who should just stay in your small towns and shut the fuck up.


P.S. All your right wing losers can fuck off.


:lmao2: :lmao2:

Damn you are entertaining even if you don't live in reality!

[mwillman]

Fuck you,

You pathetic repubservatives name call and insult with every other word out of your fucking mouths.

You want to have a real conversation then learn a little civility. I dont start this shit you loser right wingers who have no real arguments only emotional responses that rarely have anything to do with anything are the fuckturds who cant make an argument.

The biggest laugh around here is you right wingers who think anyone gives a fuck about you anymore.

[doctordog]

Fuck you,

You pathetic repubservatives name call and insult with every other word out of your fucking mouths.

You want to have a real conversation then learn a little civility. I dont start this shit you loser right wingers who have no real arguments only emotional responses that rarely have anything to do with anything are the fuckturds who cant make an argument.

The biggest laugh around here is you right wingers who think anyone gives a fuck about you anymore.

:lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2:

Keep them coming you are hilarious! Pathetic as well, but we need all the laughter we can get these days.

[GetAClue]

Fuck you,

You pathetic repubservatives name call and insult with every other word out of your fucking mouths.

You want to have a real conversation then learn a little civility. I dont start this shit you loser right wingers who have no real arguments only emotional responses that rarely have anything to do with anything are the fuckturds who cant make an argument.

The biggest laugh around here is you right wingers who think anyone gives a fuck about you anymore.

Bravo!! Please keep them coming! :lmao2:

[mwillman]

I will and so will the democratic congress and president.

I hope it pains you every time I am right and the nation does what us liberals want while ignoring and laughing at your conservatards.

[GetAClue]

I will and so will the democratic congress and president.

I hope it pains you every time I am right and the nation does what us liberals want while ignoring and laughing at your conservatards.
Now if you are going to keep up this comedy routine, you need to vary your punch lines a little bit. The same old shtick will only get you so far. You need to be more original.

I'm just trying to help you out here.:lmao2:

[mwillman]

And you need to come up with something new loser.

The right is becoming the party of 1980 which means your 30 years out of date.

You need to be put out to pasture to save this nation from your cowboy ignorance.

[Cat slave]

Fuck you,

You pathetic repubservatives name call and insult with every other word out of your fucking mouths.

You want to have a real conversation then learn a little civility. I dont start this shit you loser right wingers who have no real arguments only emotional responses that rarely have anything to do with anything are the fuckturds who cant make an argument.

The biggest laugh around here is you right wingers who think anyone gives a fuck about you anymore.


Someone is having a temper trantum:lmao2: , its not very attractive or clever.

Ahhhh, but some of us have beauty and brains too. Sorry you missed out.
Not!:D

[kres24GT]

You calling me right wing shows how stupid you are.

[Cat slave]

Ahahhahaha.....thats "tantrum"....lol....one of my very few faults.

[GetAClue]

And you need to come up with something new loser.

The right is becoming the party of 1980 which means your 30 years out of date.

You need to be put out to pasture to save this nation from your cowboy ignorance.
Now make up your mind. In another thread, you claimed that we were stuck in the 1950's. Comedy only works if you maintain some sense of consistency. Don't worry, I'll help you out. :D

[mwillman]

There is consistency your just to stupid to see it.

You are from the 50s and you have moved up to the eighties.
The problem is its 2009 and your about 30 years out of date.

[bairdi]

What kills me about this article is the fact that it mentions that insurance companies want a law requiring all Americans to buy health insurance. If this is done, they would not deny anyone coverage. They want to continue to manage the health system in this country. To me, this is like the credit card companies saying that they would not deny a credit card to anyone if there was a law requiring every American to use it and they could manage credit in this country. The biggest reason the health system in this country is broken is because of insurance and managed care companies, imho.


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-lazarus27-2009may27,0,2252325.column
From the Los Angeles Times
Canada's healthcare saved her; Ours won't cover her
David Lazarus

May 27, 2009

San Marcos resident Maggie Yount wasn't surprised when the letter from insurance giant Anthem Blue Cross arrived the other day. Yet she couldn't help but be frustrated.

"Some medical conditions, either alone or in combination with the cost of medication, present uncertain medical underwriting risks," Anthem informed her. "In view of these risks, we find we are unable to offer you enrollment at this time."

In other words, no health coverage for you.

Yount, 24, finds herself in that cloudy area in which a "preexisting condition" makes her too great a risk in the eyes of money-minded insurance companies. And so she's being excluded from the system.

"It looks like I'll just have to be very, very careful about everything," Yount told me. "But what kind of way is that to live your life?"

If that were all there was to it, her story would still be worth telling as the Obama administration embarks on an ambitious effort to reform the woefully dysfunctional U.S. healthcare system.

But Yount's tale runs even deeper.

In November 2007, she was rushed to the emergency room after a drunk driver crashed into her car on a Nova Scotia highway.

Yount awoke from a coma four days later. She had suffered a brain injury in the head-on collision. Thirteen bones were broken, from her leg to her cheek. The other driver was killed.

Yount, a Canadian citizen, spent three months in a Halifax hospital, receiving treatment and rehab that must have cost a small fortune.

"I have no idea how much it cost," she said. "It's not something I've ever needed to know."

So who paid the bill?

"The government of Canada."

The United States is the only industrialized democracy that doesn't have a government-run insurance system. Under such systems, universal coverage is provided through tax revenue. There are no premiums, co-pays or deductibles.

It's not a perfect system -- people often end up waiting for nonessential treatment. But it won't leave you destitute if things go bad. Basically, you're covered. For everything.

In Yount's case, that ended when she moved to San Marcos in northern San Diego County a year ago to be with her fiance. They were married last July.

She then tried to obtain health coverage under the U.S. system. Her American husband works as a software engineer on a contract basis and doesn't have employer-provided coverage.

Before applying to Anthem, Yount applied for an individual policy offered by Aetna Inc. She received a letter a couple of months ago informing her that her application had been rejected.

The letter noted that Yount's medical record includes "a history of traumatic brain injury with multiple fractures treated with hospitalization." It concluded that "this condition exceeds the allowable limits provided by our underwriting guidelines."

That's a fancy way of saying there's a pretty good chance Yount will require medical care of one sort or another in the future. This would be bad for Aetna's business.

"If anybody from Aetna had actually spoken to me, they'd see I'm not mentally challenged because of the brain injury," Yount said. "I still have some issues related to it, such as short-term memory loss, but I no longer have the need for acute medical care."

As for all those broken bones: "They've healed," Yount said. "That's over. What, are they going to deny people coverage because they once had a broken arm?"

Anjanette Coplin, an Aetna spokeswoman, was unable to discuss Yount's case. But she said the company considers a variety of factors before rejecting an applicant for coverage. These can include a person's overall condition, medical history and prospects for ongoing treatment.

"We feel that our underwriting guidelines give the greatest number of consumers the opportunity to purchase affordable, quality health insurance products," Coplin said.

Yount's response: Companies like Aetna and Anthem are denying coverage based solely on history rather than a reasonable expectation of what could happen down the road.

"I want insurance for what could happen in the future -- just in case," she said. "That's what insurance is for. But I can't get it."

I don't blame Aetna or Anthem. If you offer health insurance as a for-profit business, it goes without saying that you'll do everything you can to avoid making payouts. That means you'll shun anyone with even a whiff of medical trouble.

But this is no way to run an insurance system, let alone to protect people from financial ruin due to catastrophic events such as being sent to the hospital by a drunk driver.

The Obama administration has already rejected the idea of a single-payer system similar to Canada's -- a mistake, in my opinion. Instead, it wants a smaller public program that would compete with private insurers and keep costs down.

Private insurers, not surprisingly, are lobbying aggressively to kill off that idea. They'd rather have a national mandate that would require all Americans to buy their product.

In return, they say, they'd stop sending rejection letters to people like Yount with preexisting conditions. But policyholders would still be subject to the companies' various terms and conditions.

Maybe one compromise would be to let private insurers handle the small stuff and to have a public program that could tackle the catastrophic stuff.

I asked Yount what would have happened if she'd gotten into her accident in Southern California instead of Nova Scotia.

"I can't say whether my care would have been better or worse," she replied. "But I know this: I'd be bankrupt now."

"I'm not a religious person," Yount added. "But I thank God my accident happened where it did."

[MintJulep]

You can't buy car insurance after you wreck your car or if you've lost your license for drunk driving. You can't buy homeowners insurance after your house burns down. If either of these organizations allowed this, they would be out of business. Same with health insurance. Risk assessment is done for a reason, to stay in business.

[bairdi]

You can't buy car insurance after you wreck your car or if you've lost your license for drunk driving. You can't buy homeowners insurance after your house burns down. If either of these organizations allowed this, they would be out of business. Same with health insurance. Risk assessment is done for a reason, to stay in business.
That's the problem. You cannot treat people's health like it's a car or a house. Health is intangible and should not be viewed as a commodity.

[MintJulep]

That's the problem. You cannot treat people's health like it's a car or a house. Health is intangible and should not be viewed as a commodity.Not sure what you mean by "intangible", perhaps you meant necessity. Food and water are also necessities for life and it is your right to acquire them. It is not your "right", however, to extort money from your neighbor to pay for it.

[disrupter]

LadyLiberty7 supports Insurance company scams.

She loves those Wall Street suits,

the same ones costing the US treasury Trillions of your tax dollars to bail out.

[MintJulep]

LadyLiberty7 supports Insurance company scams.Excuse me?

the same ones costing the US treasury Trillions of your tax dollars to bail out.No, I don't support the Community Reinvestment Act.

I believe loans should be given to people based on individual fiduciary, not from a government mandate, part and parcel of another FUBAR'd social re-engineering experiment.

[disrupter]

Is that the slurping of a corporate whore i hear?

Victimizing innocent Americans yet again to sell her soul again to the Corporate Satan?

Yeap!

[Smurf-Herder]

Is that the slurping of a corporate whore i hear?

Victimizing innocent Americans yet again to sell her soul again to the Corporate Satan?

Yeap!

Please, by all means go off on your slurring rants tonight.

I'm in the mood ............. :thumbsup:

[doctordog]

That's the problem. You cannot treat people's health like it's a car or a house. Health is intangible and should not be viewed as a commodity.

You are responsible for your own health and it is up to you to provide for it.

[kres24GT]

If you want free health care join the military, they will provide you with subpar health care for you and your family.

[kres24GT]

I think it's funny all this "anti-corporate" rhetoric, yet the people spouting it want to give the corporations involved in medical and health services even more power by increasing government in the industry.

[mwillman]

I think it's funny all this "anti-corporate" rhetoric, yet the people spouting it want to give the corporations involved in medical and health services even more power by increasing government in the industry.

How is a national insurance policy helping private corporations.
The fact is if we had a single payer system they would go out of business at least when it comes to medical insurance.

You are the ones that want to keep it in private hands.

[doctordog]

How is a national insurance policy helping private corporations.
The fact is if we had a single payer system they would go out of business at least when it comes to medical insurance.

You are the ones that want to keep it in private hands.

86% of the nation have health insured plans, so we are only talking about a small percentage of uninsured, let's give them a choice of health insurance or welfare, but not both.

[kres24GT]

How is a national insurance policy helping private corporations.
The fact is if we had a single payer system they would go out of business at least when it comes to medical insurance.

You are the ones that want to keep it in private hands.


Big Governmetn always makes Big Business richer and more powerful. You think politicians are going to put the insurance companies and ther CEOs out of business, you are dumber than I thought. These people have paid millions to put the guys in Washington where they are, they own them.

[mwillman]

that means that over 40 million don't have health care and lets not forget that many that do have health insurance end up in bankruptcy anyways becuase health insurance has more loop holes then you head, which is saying a lot.

[doctordog]

that means that over 40 million don't have health care and lets not forget that many that do have health insurance end up in bankruptcy anyways becuase health insurance has more loop holes then you head, which is saying a lot.

the sky is falling, the sky is falling:lmao2:

[bairdi]

the sky is falling, the sky is falling:lmao2:
Pray that it doesn't happen to you.

[doctordog]

Pray that it doesn't happen to you.

It has twice! I survived both times. thanks for asking

[GetAClue]

You know, we already have an example of government run health care, its call the Veterans Administration’s hospital system. Not sure how many of you have ever had the privilege of being involved in one of these, but I have.

My step-brother broke his neck while in the Navy and was taken care of in these hospitals until his death. The doctors and nurses at these hospitals were to be commended. They were very compassionate and caring. However, what they lacked was sufficient funds to adequately do their jobs. They were constantly out of almost everything. Medicine was rationed to the neediest and other services were out of the question.

Now, while I admire the people involved in the VA, I can tell you that the care at a private hospital is much better by a factor of a hundred. And if this is what we can expect with the government running our health care, I say “NO THANKS”!

[mwillman]

Again GetAClue you are arguing apples when we are talking about health care insurance.

No one is asking for government run hospitals.

[MintJulep]

Again GetAClue you are arguing apples when we are talking about health care insurance.

No one is asking for government run hospitals.That will be the end result and your Savior knows this.

[mwillman]

I am not interested in your future fiction.

You have no evidence that that is what will happen.

You just keep saying it as if its truth and that should end the argument but its not truth its not even good fiction.

[MintJulep]

It's common sense, not rocket science. But considering you don't know the difference between two and to, I'm not surprised.