"The War Is Lost" - Whattya Think?

[Bill]

"The War Is Lost" rhetoric exploded over the weekend, what with Harry Reid's comments, and the blogospheres reaction.

Nobody with any sense gives a damn what the MSM corpers say - they could say "The Sun Will Shine Tomorrow" and anybody with two brain cells would suspect them of lieing about it.

But what do you guys think - is the war lost, or what?

My position is, the war isn't lost until we fail to steal the oil, and we still might be able to steal the oil.

If we bring home the booty, the war isn't lost, q.e.d.

Bringing home the oil means keeping a permanent presence in Iraq, which is cool, it means we can "support the troops" by sending them to Iraq for training in the new way of war.

[Mr. Blue]

My position is, the war isn't lost until we fail to steal the oil, and we still might be able to steal the oil.

That pretty much covers it...

Here's the thing though...Americans are kind of hypocritical, if they were given the option of pulling our troops out of Iraq and paying $8 a gallon -or- staying in Iraq and paying just under $3 per gallon. What option would they pick?

[stefan segal]

I have no doubt that both of you are reporting accurately on some segment of our society...my question is: how large a segment?

Blue's assumption of the high price of oil is flawed though, as Iraq oil production is less than what it was before we began to bomb it's citizens.

Of course my thinking on the subject involves death row for the administration, and a real show of solidarity with Chavez, which might even lower our oil prices while insuring us oil for the next hundred years.

The oil barrons want none of this, as Chavez's oil is heavy...not light sweet crude, and requires more processing to reach certain products, gasoling is one of them...but on the other side, it contains greater commercially useful products by weight, if not also in kind.

The sickness of this whole planet, either directly or by blocking remedial efforts, congregates around the desk in the oval office in an angry pustile charting plans to spew thier virilence on as many unsuspecting people as possible each day.

We know this happens every day, because we pay them from our pockets to arrive and work their will on us.

Are we so stupid...is our Constitution so toothless that we must continue to subsidize this pest hole of murdering thieves for years to come?

How has it come to pass that as lifelong proud American, I now think of our seat of government as a pest "hole"?

What have we allowed these deviants to do to our country?

I stood by and watched reagan's sickness spread, muffling people of honor and giving voice to the lunatics...I figured he was an abberation...that it would pass like stomach gas...fart the bastard out and then a return to principle.

I was dead wrong...bush..the sly, sneaking, ungifted bush took up the reigns.

He was not so much a problem, as he could be cowed...he had some concern for his image. What I wasn't aware of was the cheney bunch poisoning the works in the background...and then there was skull and bones and carlisle crew of psychopaths generating schemes for world dominance...or at the least dominance over world banking, which in effect is the same thing.

Clinton was and still is a puzzle ( I remain awed by his intelligence )...in whatever case...he was in most respects a breather from the progress of the skull and bones juggarnaught...with the very great exception of clinton's spear-heading of the free trade treaties which turned out to be the first chime of our death knell.

butch...I don't need to go into butch and his evil alter ego cheney...with butch, our facade of civility collapsed...we became guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity...we threw our civil rights in the blaze to light up the face of evil...the butch/cheney duality.

We are now a banana dictatorship. Our economy is bankrupt...we owe more than we can ever repay...we, as a population have one of the lowest saving rates of any industrialized nation...we have partied not only on all our equity in our homes, but continued to party to the limit of our credit...and then some more. Our personal finances are a mirror of our national finances in relation to foreign nations...kaput!

Remaining in character, we refuse to face our bankruptcy, personal or national, and instead, beat the bushes for new creditors...digging our grandkid's financial hole deeper...so as not to interupt our partying.

Yes,,,I've wandered off the subject...old people are prone to meandering, but I will send it anyway, as I believe it can't hurt, and maybe someone will read this and be of an age or position to act.

Stefan

[Bill]

Americans are meaner than shrews, dumber than dirt, greedier than politicians, and sneaky like "Speedy" Gonzales, Stefan.

They can read, but don't.

They can think, but choose not too.

They know it's all about the oil, but don't have the courage to say so.

We deserve what we have created, and the rest of the world is laughing at us.

Which is only fair.

[Mr. Blue]

Stefan, my point about increased prices at the pump circulates around the peak oil theory. That the Iraq war is the first phase of a series of resource wars as a few big powers try and secure as much oil as they can.

My comment about Americans, well, let's face it...Americans are pretty hypocritical. There's no doubt in my mind if you spelled it out to them that the majority of Americans would have no problems with the war in Iraq as long as the price of gas is pretty low.

As for Iraq, we're never leaving it...Iraq has roughly 1/4 of the worlds oil supply...I'm telling you...we're not leaving. It doesn't matter if a democrat is elected, we'll stay, and we'll continue to stay until we pump it dry or there's an alternative energy source (don't hold your breath on this one).

Right now look at what Americans are doing, they're outraged publicly and privately don't care all that much as long as their standard of living isn't effected.

Want to see what Americans are like or humans in general? Look at Katrina. Take their creature comforts and they're around 72 hours away from becoming cavemen and embracing the survival of the fittest mentality.

"The War Is Lost"...well, nope it isn't...the only way we lose the war is if we don't drain all the oil out.

[stefan segal]

Bill...there's many good people doing good things, and there's many bad robber-barrons attempting to buy their souls back from the devil, doing good things...we just don't hear about them listening to mass media.

I can't afford to paint all americans with so wide a brush...neither white nor black, as I would find it injurious to outlook on all life around me.

It's a choice we all must make...'what sort of world do we wish to live in?'

We can choose to see all blue fords, and the hyways and byways will appear jambed with blue fords...thus proving the rightness of your choice...but being right about the ubiquitousness of blue fords, means that buying anything else, is wierd or different...a political statement...there is a personal cost to such blanket statements.

If we choose to see all rot, as I have chosen to see with repugs of power and the administration, they could morph into jesus christ and turn my bathwater into wine, and I'd sue him for trespassing.

You see what you look for. If you have any intelligence at all, you can issue up abundant proof of almost any position you choose to stand behind.

The point is, why choose a position like: all americans are shit...when your mind goes I am an american...and I am shit. Which is hurtful...or all americans except me are shit. Which is also hurtful in the sense that it belies your premise, and so doesn't sit well foundationally.

Anyway...I was stopped short by your statements of all americans beyond redemption, and must take it as a show of frustration, ranther than a weighed and measured conclusion. Politically speaking...I would not question your statements, as it has been since the forties since I've seen any win-win diplomacy conducted by america.

Stefan

[stefan segal]

Want to see what Americans are like or humans in general? Look at Katrina. Take their creature comforts and they're around 72 hours away from becoming cavemen and embracing the survival of the fittest mentality.
================================================== =======
Blue...I see where you are comming from, but I believe if you dig into the hour by hour on the streets and even the waterways, the blackwater shoot to kill private army treated the poplulation like terrorist on the hoof...many of them with no neighborhood ties or investment would and did loot and rob...you must have some stake in order to resist mayhem and chaos.

Even those with a stake...those still living in normal homes were jacked up for any guns and amo in the house...how does that insure order...or does that sort of treatment make for an angry population?

I posted an artical about citizens jacked up in their boats in the water at gunpoint and having their guns taken with no reciept and more to the point...no cause.

What would you think if you heard your neighbors were rounded up and being held without proper toilets, food and water by force. If you were on the outside, you might be a bit paranoid about gun-toting strangers in black gear.

My point is that the Katrina tragedy was not all soup lines, blankets, and teddy bears for the children...it was repug jackboots, fear and supression.

butch created this problem in new orleans. His buddies want the blacks out of their neighborhoods so the rebuild can begin for the people who count..in the meanwhile, these same buddies steal everything they can carry or hide.

Katrina is not a good example of your point..but I realise the underlying truth of what you are saying, and I believe such antisocial responses can be obviated with nuts and bolts information...I believe we as a society haven't learned to exist without mcdonalds and rite aid...some instruction would allieviate that as a cause of fear.

Stefan

Ps...a proper example of man's thin veneer would be the impromtu escalation of robberys everytime NYC experiences a brown/blackout. (Hint...no electric. no alarms...no lights, no identification of street muggers)

[Bill]

I wish I could be as optimistic as you, Stefan.

But when I look at american culture, I am repulsed.

It wasn't like this when I was a kid.

A man said what he meant, and his honor meant something.

Women were competent, and impressive.

Kids could play with knives and guns, and ride bikes all over hell and gone, and nobody had any reason to be unduly afraid.

I know I'm romanticizing, but I internalized those values, and I see almost nothing but a fear of honesty and an obsession with petty things in modern culture.

The only places where I see decency are in the areas that our dominant culture ignores and despises.

Among the poor and lower class, among the nerds, geeks, and scientists, to a lesser extent among small business owners - these are the few places left in our culture where honesty and straight speech are valued.

Like here - in a cultural backwater.

[stefan segal]

Bill...I agree with you 100% and for the same reasons...what I was trying to say was that I can't afford to make that decision...to damn the whole of americans...it would ruin the quality of my every moment.

I am not imune to the evidence that most people are shit.
when I was a kid and didn't give a shit about anyone but myself and my next piece, I not only knew they were shit...but was actively vocal about it...and what are you going to do about it...in your face...stand up and get smacked down sort of attitude (but in a good way:)

You may have noticed that when I do make such a judgement, I am a purist...I don't deviate or relent...I have always been that way, and as women slipped from the alter I placed them, over the years, I found the need to allow more of society into my life...I didn't like being a dark cloud and pissing in everyone's punch...even though I have every confidence, as do you, that you can abundantly prove your case. It's just a shitty existence.

If on the other hand, one finds a worthy opponet, one that will interact, then they are more valuable than friends to keep you sharp and always stretching for better and more effective means to win the contest...but winning in this case is a loss...the contest is what winning looks like.

On the other hand to put that same effort into non responsive aversary, like making placards saying the moon has stinky feet...or texas should go mexican, does more hurt than gain...as I said...you can choose anything.
I try not to choose one's that crap up my outlook or shit in my cranium.
Stefan

[Mr. Blue]

Kids could play with knives and guns, and ride bikes all over hell and gone, and nobody had any reason to be unduly afraid.

It's funny you should mention this because a few months back I was going to pick a gift out for a 11 year old boy. When I was 11 I always carried a swiss army knife around with me, not for any sinister reason, just because boys should carry pocketknives.

I'm 33 now and I still carry the same pocketknife around (built to last, lol) and how many times it's served me is amazing. I'm like Macgyver with that thing. So, I thought this was a natural gift to give the kid.

Wife Chimes in: No don't get him that, you'll just get him into trouble.
Boy's Mother Chimes in: No son of mine is going to carry a pocketknife...he'll get in trouble.

And there I am feeling like a relic of a time that's forgotten. It's just so peculiar to me how America has changed.

[Bill]

I figure this is why rap and hiphop are so popular.

Those guys are at least telling the truth.

It's an ugly truth, but it's a real truth.

Young people see that it's true. They see that the "war between men and women" has gotten very rough and emotionally and financially violent. They see that the grownups lie all the time, and the better liars are rewarded with indecent amounts of cash. They see the middle class collapsing, while desperately pretending that they are still "keeping up with the Joneses".

They see that the cops are corrupt, the whole system is corrupt from top to bottom.

They see that the christians are acting like pigs at the trough, that they only care about sex and dirty words, but that every other unchristian act is just fine with them.

A lot of that music is just dumb, but it's still the most honest music you can buy. Not that I listen to it all that much - but I understand why it became popular.

[Bill]

Wife Chimes in: No don't get him that, you'll just get him into trouble.
Boy's Mother Chimes in: No son of mine is going to carry a pocketknife...he'll get in trouble.

And there I am feeling like a relic of a time that's forgotten. It's just so peculiar to me how America has changed.

There you have it, in a nutshell.

We've turned the schools into low-security prisons. In many ways I see this as the dominant metaphor for our whole culture.

We are a Prison Society - every aspect of american life points to, and revolves around, our giant prisons.

This wasn't the american future I dreamed of when I was young. This isn't a dream.

We've become the american nightmare.

[Betty Blowtorch]

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/9520/mrbillohnoooib2.jpg
Hey Mr. Bill

I want to thank you for starting this thought-provoking thread.
It has changed my entire thinking about our wonderful Iraq war.

I now realize I've been thinking about this war the wrong way.
I've been thinking about it from the point of view of being an
American taxpayer helping to pay for an illegal war which has
killed more than half a million Iraqi men, women and children
and has turned most of the world against us.

From that point of view, there's no question that the Iraq war
is lost. Even ultra-conservative William F. Buckley has publicly
stated that the war is lost.

But guess what?

Halliburton is winning the war. Exxon is winning the war.
All of the oil companies and the defense industry are raking in
ungodly profits from the war.

Even if the war lasts another 20 years and 50,000 soldiers get
killed or maimed or get their balls shot off, Halliburton and Exxon
and the rest of the military-industrial complex will continue to
win the war. The war of the wallet.

No matter how many people die, no matter how badly the war
is going, Exxon and Halliburton still win.

And that's why the war keeps going even though the voters
made it clear last November that they're sick to death of the
Iraqi quagmire.

What I don't understand is why I haven't gotten my head out
of my ass and invested all my savings in Exxon and Halliburton
stock. It's not like I have a conscience or anything.


Anyway, thanks for helping me to see http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6126/avatarheadupasssu7.png
the war from the proper perspective.
The same perspective that Bush and
Cheney see it from.