Service Based Economy

[Mr. Blue]

Got a quick question that's been puzzling me a little of late. America has been moving to a service based economy, a big part of that is knowledge based / intellectual property, type things, for an example computer software, also in Entertainment, movies, dvd, etc, etc, etc.

How exactly are we protecting our intellectual properties around the world or is it even possible and doesn't it essentially make for a dangerous flaw in the U.S. moving into a service based economy?

I mean, you build a chair, that's tangible, it's not something someone could just download a hacked or pirated version of it. Software or movies, etc, can easily be downloaded, hard to enforce, and in a country like China, are they really going to give two flying flings about using hacked microsoft software?

Has America made a mistake in not keeping our manufacturing base strong and marrying it to our service economy?

[SirMoby]

Pirating law are difficult to enforce and it's one of the reasons why we should have clamped down on China years ago.

I remember about 12-15 years ago I was in Hong Kong. Saturday morning my hosts took me to stadium where you could buy anything. One area was dedicated software, movies, DVDs and they had it all. Not just Microsoft Office but also Penta, People Soft, Oracle ..... For $200 you could buy $100,000 worth or accounting software and $2 would get you any movie, CD or anything for the desktop.

Intellectual property is difficult and you have to keep producing. That's one of my big concerns about education. We need to get at least back on par with international standards.

[SirMoby]

Another concern about the not building and exporting any more is that 88% of our economy is consumed in the USA.

Every time we lower wages, median income or people have less spendable income because of increased necessity prices such as health care, we're taking money away from customers.

For me I want consumers to have as much money as possible so that I can go earn my money form them. If the nations median income increases like it did in the 90s then businesses that provide services can thrive. As median income becomes stagnant or we lose jobs then there's less money for businesses to earn so then they need government bailouts to survive.

[Mr. Blue]

It's an interesting problem really...even piracy laws in the states, rarely enforced, it's widespread, and it's becoming an accepted reality. At the moment this type of Piracy is probably hurting my income more then the slumping economy.

While this idea of a service based economy sounds like the next logical step, there's a certain amount of concern with it, and I wouldn't mind seeing more manufacturing at the moment. Not saying to go backwards, but a more even approach wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Add to that our education system failing, you're right, in a decade we might be on the road to nothing.

[foxbaron]

Our Manufacturing economy was destroyed by the unions. The unions make it impossible for a US based manufacturer to be able to compete in the world market place. Plus our so called tariffs and free trade crap is killing them too.

What we do manufacture is excellent it is just no longer affodable by the avergae American which is why wALMART IS FULL OF SHIT MADE IN cHINA.

[michiganFats]

I think the people who worked in our manufacturing base were hurt by a strong dollar and by modernization. It's hard to export goods from a nation with a strong currency to nations with weak currencies. Unfortunately for us we live in a time of global economic change and the readjustment may take awhile.

We're moving into an information based economy, and I agree 100% that education will be key to our future success.

[foxbaron]

I think the people who worked in our manufacturing base were hurt by a strong dollar and by modernization. It's hard to export goods from a nation with a strong currency to nations with weak currencies. Unfortunately for us we live in a time of global economic change and the readjustment may take awhile.

We're moving into an information based economy, and I agree 100% that education will be key to our future success.


I agree but we still need to bring back our manufacturing capabilities somehow. It seems tha education is directed mostly towards information technology and not manufacturing. You can only sell so much info.

I think we need to develop industries or methods that allow us to be able to function even when the computers crash and the electricity goes out.

3x5 cards are one of the best inventions ever and they can save your ass when the computers decide to go on strike. My fear is that way too many industries TOTALLY rely on computers to function and no one has planned on what to do when the computers die on them.

Companies need to start thinking and planning on being able to continue to function when the computers go out, which I gurantee will happen sooner or later.

Backup systems should be developed that are manual in nature and are not dependent on a computer to function. You can always get another computer and you can always download your back up files but you can't do shit if you don't have electricty or batteries to run the mother.

[Mr. Blue]

The problem with information as a commodity, it's really easy to pirate that information, and it's not really all that preventable. Granted, I suppose there's the area of securing information, etc, etc, as another avenue of income, but 20 people coding a program vs. thousands of people hacking at the program. It's very hard to prevent that type of theft.

Other areas in a service based economy is banking, umm, errr, yeah well...lol, etc, etc.

Now i'm not saying we should compete with China to build Kazoos at the cheapest cost possible, but take Japan, they have that manufacturing base blended with that service branch.

[SirMoby]

I don't agree that it was unions that killed our manufacturing. We will never compete with countries like China and India unless you want to have a similar standard of living and want better for my daughter. You should want better for your children and if you don't have children at least the next generation.

For generations American exports thrived on ingenuity and invention. We built machines that helped us produce better products for less. We initiated so many new technologies. TV, Radios, Computers, Routers, assembly lines, construction equipment ....

Why do Americans think that we can live on the same wages that workers in Mexico and China can live on?

In Poland, $400 a month might be decent but in America you can't even pay for health insurance.

We will never be able to produce the shit in Walmart here that we can in China. We should never have allowed to manipulate their currency and we should never have offered so many tax incentives for companies to move there.

Many unions have gone over board but companies offered such massive contracts because they needed the workers.

Either we lead or we become the rest.

[michiganFats]

Computers and Computer Networks really aren't that weak. If you own a business you can warehouse your data. Someone could launch an EMP attack against your city today, and within a week you could have most of your data back, as long as it was stored properly.

I also don't believe that America has lost it's manufacturing capabilities. America has lost the need for human beings to do most of the work, and that's the issue. Those workers can't transition to something else immediately, and that's causing problems right now.

I think it's a mistake to try to focus our economy on a segment of our economy that has been rendered secondary by technological advancement.

[ROdger Right]

Schooling will not be an option for the most part. Nice goal i guess.

Good thing someone can always serve you food unless of course the dems get their way.

Yea i had a teacher who almost got caught with her friend in china buying electronics after america complained enough one day. Bunch of chinese locked arms and they just got through in seconds. Its lie 5-7 years in prison for that.

[The_Limit]

Pirating law are difficult to enforce and it's one of the reasons why we should have clamped down on China years ago.

I remember about 12-15 years ago I was in Hong Kong. Saturday morning my hosts took me to stadium where you could buy anything. One area was dedicated software, movies, DVDs and they had it all. Not just Microsoft Office but also Penta, People Soft, Oracle ..... For $200 you could buy $100,000 worth or accounting software and $2 would get you any movie, CD or anything for the desktop.

Intellectual property is difficult and you have to keep producing. That's one of my big concerns about education. We need to get at least back on par with international standards.

Here in Canada, the feds require ISP providers and retailers to implement a a limited surcharge to every monthly bill or and/or blank media sold in stores.

The money is then pooled and divided to copyright holders.

No lawsuits, no hassle.

Downloading music is essentially legal in Canada because, as the logic goes, everyone is already paying through the surcharges.

[michiganFats]

Are you saying that in Canada people who did nothing illegal are being forced to pay content producers due to the actions of criminals who are not pursued?

[The_Limit]

]Are you saying[/B] that in Canada people who did nothing illegal are being forced to pay content producers due to the actions of criminals who are not pursued?


No, not at all.

[michiganFats]

Then why would anyone buying blank media have to pay a surcharge? And why are ISP's engaged in anything other than allowing the authorities to gain access to the accounts of suspected criminals? From what I just read, I'd have to pay a surcharge that would go to content producers everytime I bought blank DVD's(which I do often), even though I'm not involved in pirating of any kind.

[The_Limit]

Then why would anyone buying blank media have to pay a surcharge?

And why are ISP providers engaged in anything other than allowing the authorities to gain access to the accounts of suspected criminals? From what I just read, I'd have to pay a surcharge that would go to content producers everytime I bought blank DVD's(which I do often), even though I'm not involved in pirating of any kind.

The context and phrasing of your interpretation of what I told you is just not accurate of how the issue of copyright is handled in Canada. Words like "criminal" and "illegal" are much too harsh a descriptor.

Its just not like that here. Consider that the price of ISP service is probably the same, slightly higher or slightly cheaper in Canada than the U.S. Blank media surcharges I believe hover around five to seven cents per CD or DVD.

The approach was not to divide citizens between criminals and non-criminals. Thats the one thing all sides agreed on. The point was to avoid, with respects to copyright issues involving personal households, common Canadians being criminalized.

Rather the avenue Canadians took was to offer a fair compensation to copyright holders; while taking into account the reality that enforcing more punitive laws would seek to make criminals out of a large percentage of Canadians, and be a big waste of police manpower and tools.

The RCMP said it was already too overburdened with internet sex crimes against children and online financial fraud schemes to devote any kind of meaningful effort on behalf of the copyright holders.

The RCMP made it abundantly clear - they just were not going to go after college or high school kids downloading shit from their parents basement.

Everyone agreed and so the changes were implemented. And, at least on this issue, Canadians lived happily ever after.

[michiganFats]

The context and phrasing of your interpretation of what I told you is just not accurate of how the issue of copyright is handled in Canada. Words like "criminal" and "illegal" are much too harsh a descriptor.

Its just not like that. Consider the price of ISP service is probably the same or cheaper in Canada as it is in the U.S. Blank media surcharges I believe hover around five to seven cents

The approach is not to divide citizens between criminals and non-criminals. Thats the one thing all sides agreed on, and wanted to avoid with respects to copyright issues involving personal households.

Rather the avenue Canadians took was to compensate the copyright holders; while taking into account the reality that enforcing more punitive laws would seek to make criminals out of a large percentage of Canadians and be a big waste of police manpower and tools.

The RCMP said it was already too overburdened with internet sex crimes against children and online financial fraud schemes to devote any kind of meaningful effort on behalf of the copyright holders.

The RCMP made it abundantly clear - they just were not going to go after college or high school kids downloading shit from their parents basement.

Cool, then my first query was right on target. It is almost an impossible job to pursue cyberpunks, and there is nothing wrong with being pragmatic, I just like pragmatists to admit that they are pragmatists.

[The_Limit]

Cool, then my first query was right on target. It is almost an impossible job to pursue cyberpunks, and there is nothing wrong with being pragmatic, I just like pragmatists to admit that they are pragmatists.


Thats the Canadian way.

The US has the dreamy "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," motto.

Canadians have the pragmatic "Peace, order and good government," creed.

[Mr. Blue]

I don't agree that it was unions that killed our manufacturing. We will never compete with countries like China and India unless you want to have a similar standard of living and want better for my daughter. You should want better for your children and if you don't have children at least the next generation.

For generations American exports thrived on ingenuity and invention. We built machines that helped us produce better products for less. We initiated so many new technologies. TV, Radios, Computers, Routers, assembly lines, construction equipment ....

Why do Americans think that we can live on the same wages that workers in Mexico and China can live on?

In Poland, $400 a month might be decent but in America you can't even pay for health insurance.

We will never be able to produce the shit in Walmart here that we can in China. We should never have allowed to manipulate their currency and we should never have offered so many tax incentives for companies to move there.

Many unions have gone over board but companies offered such massive contracts because they needed the workers.

Either we lead or we become the rest.

I don't really want to beat up on Unions, because I honestly don't think we could compete with a country who's cost of living is so cheap comparatively. At least in some areas...I'm willing to give China, India, Pakistan, those manufacturing jobs that just aren't feasible in the American way of life.

Unions are to fault in some areas and we have to be aware that they are, but we're beyond the type of manufacturing that even requires unions. The manufacturing I'm worried about is the more highend manufacturing. The areas where we still can compete, it seems like we're selling ourselves off.

No one really gave a crap when we let China build some ceramic crap Bricabrac for Walmart, that was a type of outsourcing that made some kind of sense. However, in the last decade we've started seeing those jobs that were traditionally ours being outsourced.

I can't discuss every industry, but let's take the customer support end of it. How many here have had to deal with Indian customer support? I know I have and maybe 10 years ago a company would never think of outsourcing that branch because of the language barrier. Now it cost effective to train an Indian on how to speak English with a southern accent than paying an American to handle it (weirdest call I ever had was an Indian guy trying to do a southern drawl, lol).

Now we might be able to let those types of jobs slide, but what about technical jobs? 10 years ago would anyone consider hiring a webdesigner from the Philippines? Again, the language barrier, but if I could hire one to work full time for $400 per month, get 7 days a week out of them, where $400 with an American designer would buy me next to nothing. Suddenly it starts making sense to hire the guy from the Philippines and just having someone proofread his work.

How can this guy from the Philippines compete? Startup cost for a web designer runs about $2000 in software...that's barebones type stuff. He's of course getting it free. Factor in the cost of living in the Philippines. Factor in that you can learn a lot of things from the web making the educational barrier less. Factor in any dozen of other variables, and suddenly it starts making sense to outsource that job that would have been American only 10 years ago.

Software programmers, Indian programmers, Russian programmers, cost next to nothing compared to an American. Again, an area that was American, Japanese, etc, only a few years back.

Not sure how we can stem the tide. Our education system is failing, we're not staying ahead of the curve as much as we used to, and Corporate America, who used to have some sense of patriotism, nationalism, whatever you want to call it, sees itself more as a global entity with no ties to a country.

How does America compete in the future? Our intellectual property is more or less freely distributed, our technical jobs are starting to be outsourced, and I almost want to say we need to start enforcing more protectionist policies.

[SirMoby]

How can this guy from the Philippines compete? Startup cost for a web designer runs about $2000 in software...that's barebones type stuff. He's of course getting it free. Factor in the cost of living in the Philippines. Factor in that you can learn a lot of things from the web making the educational barrier less. Factor in any dozen of other variables, and suddenly it starts making sense to outsource that job that would have been American only 10 years ago.
We can't for basic web designers or technology that has been around a decade or more. We never could and never needed to before. Often they're closer to $900 a month for decent one but I understand your point. ;)

If our schools are only teaching php, html and PhotoShop then the guy in the Philippines will beat us. However, that guy over there knows little about flash, optimizing code for big applications, doesn't understand wireless technology, the changing issues with SEOs, networking tech, integration ....

Today that guy in the Philippines can do exactly what many of our college grads can do.

10 years ago that guy couldn't do what our high school grads were doing.

That's the difference. As our education system continues to slide, and we close our borders to the best and the brightest, we lose our technology edge. Once we lose our technology edge then we have to compete at the same level as other countries and the only way to win is to drive down wages and living standards here in America.

I would prefer to keep pushing for technology. To continue investing heavily in public education. I want America to be leaders and not just another arm of manual labor.

[Mr. Blue]

We can't for basic web designers or technology that has been around a decade or more. We never could and never needed to before. Often they're closer to $900 a month for decent one but I understand your point. ;)

$400, lol, bypass the middleman...a lot of Philippine designers work for a company that tacks on a finders fees, etc...if you find a freelancer the price is a lot lower.

If our schools are only teaching php, html and PhotoShop then the guy in the Philippines will beat us. However, that guy over there knows little about flash, optimizing code for big applications, doesn't understand wireless technology, the changing issues with SEOs, networking tech, integration ....

You'd be surprised what you could learn online...basically I started on the web, umm, 10 years ago, yikes. No formal education in computers, lol, and since that time I've taught myself html, xhtml, css, photoshop, php (somewhat, lol), flash, and SEO pages, etc, etc, and every year I learn a new set of skills to keep up and none of it gets learned in a classroom setting.

Education has become more fluid in nature. Given the desire / motivation, the information is out there...what better motivation is there for someone in the Philippines trying to raise himself to a new level? Part of the failure of America's education system isn't lack of funding, it's lack of motivation.

Today that guy in the Philippines can do exactly what many of our college grads can do.

10 years ago that guy couldn't do what our high school grads were doing.

That's the difference. As our education system continues to slide, and we close our borders to the best and the brightest, we lose our technology edge. Once we lose our technology edge then we have to compete at the same level as other countries and the only way to win is to drive down wages and living standards here in America.

I would prefer to keep pushing for technology. To continue investing heavily in public education. I want America to be leaders and not just another arm of manual labor.

Pushing technology, yes. Public education funding, certainly, even though there is a question of throwing money at a problem and it not helping, but I suppose we can discuss the problems of education in another thread.

Manual labor, more than willing to give that to other countries, but the technical jobs are now being pushed out...education alone won't keep them here if there's a cheaper qualified person outside the U.S.

There has to be ways beyond improving education. Tax penalties for outsourcing / rewards for keeping jobs in the states, and I'm almost willing to examine the idea of a protective tariff on some products, etc.

Also, there should be some manufacturing base in America...okay, give China the walmart crap, but we should have a manufacturing capability that keeps in stride with our information/service based economy.

[Dale escondido]

The more technological advances come the less labor required.
This has to be addressed in the future plans foir our nation.
I believe in keeping manufacturing here as not everyone will want to achieve higher degrees.
China and india are only a few years away from the" interface" technology to take away all manufacturing from the US
I am not sure the word I used was proiper for all tech industry, but in my industry the adapting of computers to mechanic and hydraulic functions is called interfacing and is almost impossible to find qualified techs.
The chinese have tried to compete thru a compasny called freeman out of ohio and their stuff was inexspensive enough to intice some big companies which cant give the equiptment away now.
But they are close.