'All-out war' declared on Hamas [Archive] - DC Junkies Political Message Board

Moby

12-30-2008, 12:30 PM

It's a long story so I just posted this part. If you want to read the rest click the link.

http://www.forbes.com/topstories/2008/12/30/gmac-washington-tarp-markets-equity-cx_bw_1230markets01.html

Israel expands list of bombing targets, creates 'military zone' around Gaza

By Griff Witte and Sudarsan Raghavan

updated 12:09 a.m. ET, Tues., Dec. 30, 2008
JERUSALEM, Dec. 29 - Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak declared "an all-out war against Hamas" on Monday as fighter jets raked the Gaza Strip with bombs for the third straight day and Palestinian fighters sent dozens of rockets flying deep into Israeli territory.

The Palestinian death toll rose to 364, according to Palestinian medical officials. The Israeli death toll stood at four, including three people killed in rocket fire Monday. One of the rockets hit a bus stop in Ashdod, a coastal community 23 miles north of Gaza, another sign that Hamas is launching longer-range rockets than it did before a six-month truce expired Dec. 19.

Israel sealed off an area around Gaza on Monday, declaring it a "closed military zone," amid indications that the army may be preparing for a ground offensive. Meanwhile, Israeli jets continued to strike targets across the narrow coastal strip, including a security compound and the homes of suspected Hamas operatives.

hdmarketing

12-30-2008, 07:11 PM

It's about time Israel does something.

I guess they finally figured out they are on their own now with Obama coming in.

Go Israel Go...

:woohoo:

SeedyROM

12-30-2008, 07:42 PM

I support Israel's desire to Shock and Awe Hamas! I hate so see innocent Palestinians caught in the middle. They've been beaten, killed and bullied into submission. One third of them live like refugees. Will a cease fire solve the problems, I seriously doubt it.

Hamas rakes in Billions and refuses to feed the people of Palestine who can't take care of themselves.

Hamas would keep the bulk of financial aid for the terrorist agenda.

Hamas is funded and armed by Iran.

Hamas is always going to be a terrorist organisation.

Hama uses human shields including children at all its offices, outposts and weapons locations.

What if the maps were redefined and Hamas were destroyed? Look at the 2 maps, old and more current. Give Palestine the north half and the Jews get the lower half of the area. This gives both countries a border on the Med. and it end the Gaza Strip debate.

Old map 1947 http://www.israelvets.com/picts/nation_reborn/full_size_images/PalestineMap.jpg

Current map
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Palestine_Map_2007.gif

disrupter

12-31-2008, 09:21 AM

Israel has become a league of monsters.
They have rationalized a minor fear of homemade rockets & used it as an
Excuse for Genocide.

Israel gets 3 billion in foreign aid from the US. The largest amount we give to anyone.
Israel puppets around our sycophant government around like its own private toy, while we pay the taxes to support all this.

The US government, Pelosi included, can take their traitorous asses to Israel & let Israelis foot their hefty tabs.
Like the bank welfare bailout.

The American people need a government that represents American values, not Israeli's genocidal agenda.

disrupter

12-31-2008, 09:23 AM

Scumbag

12-31-2008, 09:41 AM

PS.
The reason Hamas got democratically elected is precisely because they were feeding people & taking care of people while the corrupt PLO was not.

Ain't it amazing,
the USA HATES REAL DEMOCRACY.

I guess that is why stolen elections here have become common.
Yeah, feeding them with rockets and bullshit!

Proving, once again, what an idiot you are!

You should check out how Hamas actually got elected, loser!

disrupter

12-31-2008, 09:53 AM

Please extract your head from your posterior, Scumbag,

it may allow much of the shit your head is full of to flow out of your ears for a change.

Moby

12-31-2008, 09:58 AM

You should check out how Hamas actually got elected, loser!
How did they get elected?

disrupter

12-31-2008, 10:10 AM

And the real tragedy is that Israelis don't see how this creates an unending, ever escalating violence & black hatred.

The few nutcases who use any rationale to kill, can only do so with the acceptance or support of rational people. People who could otherwise be won to a rational argument where they have an opportunity to prosper & make homes for themselves & their families.

Israelis have the same disease as many Americans, Ignorance from poorly managed & misunderstood wealth.

A reason for electing Hamas:
Its popularity stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories, including school and hospital construction. The group devotes much of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Provision_of_social_welfare_and_education

Hey let's elect Hamas in the US,
instead of that bloated tick Pelosi, who gives away your hard earned tax dollars to a bunch of drunken brawling Wall Street 'bankers',
as well as giving 3 billion in foreign aid to a rich, nuclear armed Israel.

disrupter

12-31-2008, 10:14 AM

With Israel's inhumane actions,

it makes an excellent argument for Iran becoming a nuclear armed power.

When people become drunk on carrots, there is nothing left but the stick.

Scumbag

12-31-2008, 09:25 PM

How did they get elected?
Not only ill-informed, but lazy too!

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamashistory.htm

In short, Iran funded Hamas following the withdrawal of funding by Saudi Arabia. The political wing of Hamas used the money to buy votes from the people. Nothing wrong with that, happens in every election campaign. Just don't forget where the money came from in the first place.

Iran's motive was to have a terrorist regime in power who's charter calls for the destruction of Israel as opposed to the Fatah & PLO organizations who did not.

Interestingly, Iran is a Shia Muslim nation and Hamas is largely Sunni.

Iran gets to attack Israel and destabilize the Middle East using one of their own enemies.

You people are so full of the shit you are fed, when the truth is presented to you, you are unable to accept it.

I am neither Jewish nor a Zionist but I do believe Israel has the right to defend against attacks coming from elements of the elected leaders of Palestine who's charter swears to destroy them.

disrupter

01-02-2009, 08:07 AM

disrupter

01-02-2009, 08:12 AM

Monsters feed off the delusion of self-righteousness.

Israel needs to see itself for what it is.

note: there ARE Israelis who see what monstrous things go on,
AND they get much more press coverage in Israel than you will ever see in the propaganda of US media outlets.

hdmarketing

01-02-2009, 10:14 AM

Israel has the 'right' to create an ethnically, religiously exclusive state?

isn't that fundamentally un-American by our current cultural standards?

Israel has the 'right' to middle of the night kidnappings & executions of any & all Palestinians & their leaders?

Israel has the right to deprive Palestinians of Food, Medicine, Clean water & a functioning sewage system?

Israel has the 'right' to keep stealing more & more Palestinian land with impunity,
keeping in mind their entire nation is built on land taken from Palestinians?

If Israel doesn't clean up its bigoted ass it can burn in fucking hell.

It is a parasite of the United States. 3 Billion in foreign aid. More than ANY other nation.
Unload that spying vampire & kill it if it won't clean up its act.

What a bunch of horse shit...

So tell me there mr dip shit,

Hamas has the right to lob bombs into Isreal anytime they want?
Even under a "cease fire"?
Hamas has the right to bomb busses with women and children on them?

Then Hamas refused to engage in talks to renew a ceasefire, and continued to launch attacks on Isreal.

Israel acted not only in self-defense, but also to send a message of strength, after months of being attacked without responding.

Hamas is responsible for the situation, since it violated the cease fire, and is firing against and attacking Israeli citizens, and is investing all its resources in arming itself and gathering power.

The Palestinians have long cultivated an image of victimhood to win world sympathy and demand Israeli restraint in the face of Palestinian aggression.

Israel withdrew completely from the Gaza Strip in 2005, uprooting thousands of its own citizens in order to uphold internationally-recognized borders in Gaza. The Palestinians have no further territorial claims against Israel in Gaza. But instead of working to improve the quality of life for its citizens, Hamas has focused on improving the range and accuracy of its Kassam missiles and mortars and increasing its store of weapons. The Palestinian rockets, therefore, can only be seen as aggression against Israel with no moral basis.

Palestinians have fired more than 6,000 rockets and mortars into Israel since the Israeli withdrawal -- all without provocation. The rocket fire even continued during the six-months of "calm" in the Gaza area that ended last Friday. Since then, Hamas stepped up rocket fire substantially, launching 170 rockets at Israel over eight days, an average of more than 20 rockets a day.

Even Barack Obama said during his visit to the rocket-battered town of Sderot five months ago, "If someone was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing."
Don't even come off trying to make the terrorists as the victom's because they were the ones that caused all of this to begine with.

As I said before...

GO ISREAL!!!!!
:woohoo:

IT'S ABOUT TIME.....

Moby

01-02-2009, 10:39 AM

Not only ill-informed, but lazy too!

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamashistory.htm

In short, Iran funded Hamas following the withdrawal of funding by Saudi Arabia. The political wing of Hamas used the money to buy votes from the people. Nothing wrong with that, happens in every election campaign. Just don't forget where the money came from in the first place.

Iran's motive was to have a terrorist regime in power who's charter calls for the destruction of Israel as opposed to the Fatah & PLO organizations who did not.

Interestingly, Iran is a Shia Muslim nation and Hamas is largely Sunni.

Iran gets to attack Israel and destabilize the Middle East using one of their own enemies.

You people are so full of the shit you are fed, when the truth is presented to you, you are unable to accept it.

I am neither Jewish nor a Zionist but I do believe Israel has the right to defend against attacks coming from elements of the elected leaders of Palestine who's charter swears to destroy them.
Trust me, I know very well how Hamas the election and unfortunately, America is supposed to support democracy in all forms. One of things that Hamas did with the money was create health care and schools. They won the hearts of the people and when people need medical care for their children they don't really care who is providing the money. That's how Hamas won the election.

You and I may not like the idea that they were funded by Iran but that has little to do with the situation. Hamas was elected and there was no evidence that the election was false, not even in the article that you posted was there a claim that the election was rigged. It appears that they won a legitimate democratically run election.

Now what's with the "You people" bull shit statement? Dis seems to not like Israel's response but does he really make up "You people"? Why try to divide people further? Isn't that the root of the problem that we're discussing?

I'm not pro Hamas but they did win the election and as a country we claim to support democracy so we should respect the government. That doesn't mean that Israel shouldn't fill Gaza with tanks as they do need to defend themselves.

Mr. Blue

01-02-2009, 05:45 PM

Trust me, I know very well how Hamas the election and unfortunately, America is supposed to support democracy in all forms. One of things that Hamas did with the money was create health care and schools. They won the hearts of the people and when people need medical care for their children they don't really care who is providing the money. That's how Hamas won the election.

America has a flawed notion when it comes to spreading democracy. They believe that democracy itself will spread a good will towards America, but it doesn't. Introduce democracy into a theocracy driven society and you're going to get elected officials will probably rebuke the westernized ideals.

It's a waste of time and money for America to spread democracy in the middle east if they think the end game will lead to better relations with America.

As for the problem of Israel, Hamas, and Palestine. I believe its almost an unsolvable problem until one side destroys the other. We can debate the issue right, left, and sideways, but it comes down to a fundamental unwillingness by both sides to form a lasting peace.

Hog Trash

01-02-2009, 06:39 PM

America has a flawed notion when it comes to spreading democracy. They believe that democracy itself will spread a good will towards America, but it doesn't. Introduce democracy into a theocracy driven society and you're going to get elected officials will probably rebuke the westernized ideals.

It's a waste of time and money for America to spread democracy in the middle east if they think the end game will lead to better relations with America.

As for the problem of Israel, Hamas, and Palestine. I believe its almost an unsolvable problem until one side destroys the other. We can debate the issue right, left, and sideways, but it comes down to a fundamental unwillingness by both sides to form a lasting peace.I don't believe Israel and the Palistinians can ever coexist in the same nation. The Gaza strip is nothing but a launch platform for terrorist attacks against the Israelis.

The Israelis are powerless to stop the aggression towards them from the Islamic nations who want nothing less than total annialation. I honestly believe Israel would like nothing better than to live in peace.

I agree it's none of our business, but what should a nation like Iraq do when they have several sects of the same religion and they can't agree how to govern?

Only four solutions come to mind;

[1] Iron hand rule by Dictatership by the strongest sect...[Hussein]

[2] Genecide of the weaker sects by the strongest sect...[Hussein]

[3] Divide nation and begin mass relocation for division of sects...[All Out War]

[4] Democracy by agreement and cooperation of the different sects...[Yea Right]

Considering these people are savages and would never consider democracy, Hussein's solution may have been the most peaceful, less bloody resolve.

Mr. Blue

01-02-2009, 08:55 PM

I don't believe Israel and the Palistinians can ever coexist in the same nation. The Gaza strip is nothing but a launch platform for terrorist attacks against the Israelis.

The Israelis are powerless to stop the aggression towards them from the Islamic nations who want nothing less than total annialation. I honestly believe Israel would like nothing better than to live in peace.

I agree it's none of our business, but what should a nation like Iraq do when they have several sects of the same religion and they can't agree how to govern?

Only four solutions come to mind;

[1] Iron hand rule by Dictatership by the strongest sect...[Hussein]

[2] Genecide of the weaker sects by the strongest sect...[Hussein]

[3] Divide nation and begin mass relocation for division of sects...[All Out War]

[4] Democracy by agreement and cooperation of the different sects...[Yea Right]

Considering these people are savages and would never consider democracy, Hussein's solution may have been the most peaceful, less bloody resolve.

A few points, I don't consider all Muslims or the middle east savages. Religion rules the region, they're not ready to accept the more secular ideals of the west, and we shouldn't try to impose that ideology on them.

I genuinely feel bad for the Palestinians because I believe they're being used as pawns for the ire of the rest of the Middle East towards Israel. I think removing the outside influences that it's possible for the Palestinians to reach a peace with Israel, but I think it's impossible to remove the external influences.

Unfortunately, I don't think Israel was necessarily a good idea...I'd rather have seen the Jewish state somewhere in Europe, but what's done can't be undone.

So, we get left with an unsolvable puzzle. What becomes important is how America deals with the situation. As always, I'd rather see us focused on getting energy independent so we can more or less leave the region alone if we have to.

As for our support of Israel, I think we might in time have to reassess our relationship. America has to look out for itself and at times our support for Israel hurts us considerably. Not taking sides, but American foreign policy has to be geared to benefit our people...when our policy fails to do that we have to take another look at the situation.

Edit: However, I do agree that if America wanted a "friendly" Iraq...it would have been far easier to set up a dictator or drag out some old monarch and bolster them up. I just think this notion of spreading Democracy is pretty much a failed idea when it comes to the middle east.

Smurf-Herder

01-02-2009, 09:03 PM

"Death To Hamas!" :oldman: :thumbsup:

Moby

01-03-2009, 01:31 AM

As for our support of Israel, I think we might in time have to reassess our relationship. America has to look out for itself and at times our support for Israel hurts us considerably.
Israel is entrenched in American politics, data networks and military security. There ain't no way we can leave them behind. They build a large portion of our security networks. They've been involved with handling a lot of dirty work. Even rumors exists about them grabbing Soviet tech during the cold war.

Israel hurts us but it's relationship that we can't so without any more.

We're making sure China gets a similar status.

Moby

01-03-2009, 01:32 AM

"Death To Hamas!" :oldman: :thumbsup:
Shouldn't we support democracies?

Mr. Blue

01-03-2009, 01:40 AM

Israel is entrenched in American politics, data networks and military security. There ain't no way we can leave them behind. They build a large portion of our security networks. They've been involved with handling a lot of dirty work. Even rumors exists about them grabbing Soviet tech during the cold war.

I generally don't like the idea of the U.S. being married to any other country. I know it's nearly impossible to separate the two but I would like to see it attempted on some level. The Middle East is the area where our foreign policy has not only failed, but failed repeatedly. We need to start looking at how we do business over there.

I admit I'm an isolationist to some extent...I'd like to see America go back into itself a little while we figure out our problems and make some serious changes.

Smurf-Herder

01-03-2009, 04:25 AM

Shouldn't we support democracies?

Shouldn't we support our allies?

You seem to be missing something really basic here. You and others say Hamas is the government, at least in Gaza. Well, that government is at war with Israel; and refuses to even acknowledge their right to exist. So Israel has the right to defend itself from an enemy government who's at war with them.

Hamas is in a state of "Total War" with Israel, wanting Israel destroyed. Therefore, Hamas must be destroyed.

Scumbag

01-03-2009, 09:30 AM

One of things that Hamas did with the money was create health care and schools. They won the hearts of the people and when people need medical care for their children they don't really care who is providing the money. That's how Hamas won the election.
That's exactly what I said SirMoby...They Bought the votes. The Nazis did the same thing under the leadership of Adolf Hitler! You of all people should know that that's how demoracy works!

Btw, I never hinted the election was rigged. I just asked you to examine how it was won, and by you people, I mean you uneducated, ill-informed muppets who'll swallow anything fed to them so long as it sounds the slightest bit feasible, with out checking the facts!

Good 'ole stupid Americans...Living on bullshit and borrowed time!

Scumbag

01-03-2009, 09:53 AM

Israel has the 'right' to create an ethnically, religiously exclusive state?

isn't that fundamentally un-American by our current cultural standards?Current cultural standards? Yeah, right-on prick!!

America helped (in a big way) to create the State of Israel! You usless piece of shit!
Israel has the 'right' to middle of the night kidnappings & executions of any & all Palestinians & their leaders? As much right as Palestinians have to kidnap and murder Israeli soldiers.

Israel has the right to deprive Palestinians of Food, Medicine, Clean water & a functioning sewage system? What? How many nations have Ameircans denied of the same rights?

Israel has the 'right' to keep stealing more & more Palestinian land with impunity,
keeping in mind their entire nation is built on land taken from Palestinians? And who took the land from the Israelis in the first place? And who did you take your land from Hypocrite?

If Israel doesn't clean up its bigoted ass it can burn in fucking hell. After you, pond scum!

It is a parasite of the United States. 3 Billion in foreign aid. More than ANY other nation.
Unload that spying vampire & kill it if it won't clean up its act.Spoken like a true peace-loving, God-fearing American! Shitbag!

Sadly, you and your ilk are fast becoming the stereo-type of the American credo. No wonder so many would (will) be happy to see the end of you!

Scumbag

01-03-2009, 10:01 AM

What a bunch of horse shit...

So tell me there mr dip shit,

Hamas has the right to lob bombs into Isreal anytime they want?
Even under a "cease fire"?
Hamas has the right to bomb busses with women and children on them?

Then Hamas refused to engage in talks to renew a ceasefire, and continued to launch attacks on Isreal.

Israel acted not only in self-defense, but also to send a message of strength, after months of being attacked without responding.

Hamas is responsible for the situation, since it violated the cease fire, and is firing against and attacking Israeli citizens, and is investing all its resources in arming itself and gathering power.

The Palestinians have long cultivated an image of victimhood to win world sympathy and demand Israeli restraint in the face of Palestinian aggression.

Israel withdrew completely from the Gaza Strip in 2005, uprooting thousands of its own citizens in order to uphold internationally-recognized borders in Gaza. The Palestinians have no further territorial claims against Israel in Gaza. But instead of working to improve the quality of life for its citizens, Hamas has focused on improving the range and accuracy of its Kassam missiles and mortars and increasing its store of weapons. The Palestinian rockets, therefore, can only be seen as aggression against Israel with no moral basis.

Palestinians have fired more than 6,000 rockets and mortars into Israel since the Israeli withdrawal -- all without provocation. The rocket fire even continued during the six-months of "calm" in the Gaza area that ended last Friday. Since then, Hamas stepped up rocket fire substantially, launching 170 rockets at Israel over eight days, an average of more than 20 rockets a day.

Even Barack Obama said during his visit to the rocket-battered town of Sderot five months ago, "If someone was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing."
Don't even come off trying to make the terrorists as the victom's because they were the ones that caused all of this to begine with.

As I said before...

GO ISREAL!!!!!
:woohoo:

IT'S ABOUT TIME.....
Well said HD!

It would seem that it's anyone's right to defend themselves from unprovoked aggression, unless you are Iraeli!

Moby

01-03-2009, 02:07 PM

That's exactly what I said SirMoby...They Bought the votes. The Nazis did the same thing under the leadership of Adolf Hitler! You of all people should know that that's how demoracy works!
Usually the phrase "Bought The Votes" is based on bribery. I'm just not used to seeing it when discussing humanitarian aid although I guess it's fitting.

Certainly we can't fault them for providing the basic necessities of life for the people.

Smurf-Herder

01-03-2009, 02:13 PM

Usually the phrase "Bought The Votes" is based on bribery. I'm just not used to seeing it when discussing humanitarian aid although I guess it's fitting.

Certainly we can't fault them for providing the basic necessities of life for the people.

Hezbollah and Hamas "bought votes", and/or support, in a similar manner.

Moby

01-03-2009, 02:14 PM

Shouldn't we support our allies?

You seem to be missing something really basic here. You and others say Hamas is the government, at least in Gaza.
Isn't Hamas the government?

I'm not opposed in any way to Israel going in and stomping on the people that are lobbing missiles. The Hamas military/terrorists need to be beaten into submission.

The USA refused to support Hamas in any way when they were democratically elected. This allowed Iran the opportunity to do as they have done. That wasn't really a failed position but the position that we always support democracy is failed. We support governments and causes that support us. That may be a military dictatorship in Pakistan, a terrible government in Egypt or what have you. If it's best for the American people then we should support it in whatever form is necessary.

One of the things that we need to understand is that every time Israel gets into fighting, even it it's just to protect themselves, the world knows who is supplying the weapons and the world also knows that many of out leaders believe in religious wars and one world set of moral values. We may refuse to admit but most of the world knows.

Smurf-Herder

01-03-2009, 02:32 PM

Isn't Hamas the government?

I'm not opposed in any way to Israel going in and stomping on the people that are lobbing missiles. The Hamas military/terrorists need to be beaten into submission.

The USA refused to support Hamas in any way when they were democratically elected. This allowed Iran the opportunity to do as they have done. That wasn't really a failed position but the position that we always support democracy is failed. We support governments and causes that support us. That may be a military dictatorship in Pakistan, a terrible government in Egypt or what have you. If it's best for the American people then we should support it in whatever form is necessary.

One of the things that we need to understand is that every time Israel gets into fighting, even it it's just to protect themselves, the world knows who is supplying the weapons and the world also knows that many of out leaders believe in religious wars and one world set of moral values. We may refuse to admit but most of the world knows.

Abbas is the government in the West Bank - which has had a serious dialogue with Israel since the Hamas/Fatah civil war. Hamas has never renounced terrorist activity; and refuses to discuss actual peace.

Mr. Blue

01-03-2009, 03:50 PM

That wasn't really a failed position but the position that we always support democracy is failed. We support governments and causes that support us. That may be a military dictatorship in Pakistan, a terrible government in Egypt or what have you. If it's best for the American people then we should support it in whatever form is necessary.

Exactly. It's why I say the notion of spreading democracy is just ludicrous. Basically any form of government that's friendly with America should be supported. It's just insane to me that we think spreading democracy means we'll get a government that will be friendly with America.

Once we lose that democracy spreading bullshit, we'd be far better off just going with this notion of friendly nations, regardless of their form of government, is a good relationship to foster.

Hog Trash

01-04-2009, 03:20 PM

What a bunch of horse shit...

So tell me there mr dip shit,

Hamas has the right to lob bombs into Isreal anytime they want?
Even under a "cease fire"?
Hamas has the right to bomb busses with women and children on them?

Then Hamas refused to engage in talks to renew a ceasefire, and continued to launch attacks on Isreal.

Israel acted not only in self-defense, but also to send a message of strength, after months of being attacked without responding.

Hamas is responsible for the situation, since it violated the cease fire, and is firing against and attacking Israeli citizens, and is investing all its resources in arming itself and gathering power.

The Palestinians have long cultivated an image of victimhood to win world sympathy and demand Israeli restraint in the face of Palestinian aggression.

Israel withdrew completely from the Gaza Strip in 2005, uprooting thousands of its own citizens in order to uphold internationally-recognized borders in Gaza. The Palestinians have no further territorial claims against Israel in Gaza. But instead of working to improve the quality of life for its citizens, Hamas has focused on improving the range and accuracy of its Kassam missiles and mortars and increasing its store of weapons. The Palestinian rockets, therefore, can only be seen as aggression against Israel with no moral basis.

Palestinians have fired more than 6,000 rockets and mortars into Israel since the Israeli withdrawal -- all without provocation. The rocket fire even continued during the six-months of "calm" in the Gaza area that ended last Friday. Since then, Hamas stepped up rocket fire substantially, launching 170 rockets at Israel over eight days, an average of more than 20 rockets a day.

Even Barack Obama said during his visit to the rocket-battered town of Sderot five months ago, "If someone was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing."
Don't even come off trying to make the terrorists as the victom's because they were the ones that caused all of this to begine with.

As I said before...

GO ISREAL!!!!!
:woohoo:

IT'S ABOUT TIME.....In the ongoing struggle between Israel and the Islamic nations, the liberals have pretty much jumped on board the Muslim support team of hatred for Jews.

Isn't it funny how the liberals always seem to blind themselves to any facts that contridict their arguements and beliefs, and think nobody else should notice them either?

The liberals live in a fantasy land and it doesn't seem to bother them in the least bit that nothing there is real. They just keep skipping down the road singing "la-dee-da-dee-da".

They are adults who still think and believe as children, and their imagination is the rule of law and the basis of their realities.

Smurf-Herder

01-04-2009, 04:52 PM

In the ongoing struggle between Israel and the Islamic nations, the liberals have pretty much jumped on board the Muslim support team of hatred for Jews.

Isn't it funny how the liberals always seem to blind themselves to any facts that contridict their arguements and beliefs, and think nobody else should notice them either?

The liberals live in a fantasy land and it doesn't seem to bother them in the least bit that nothing there is real. They just keep skipping down the road singing "la-dee-da-dee-da".

They are adults who still think and believe as children, and their imagination is the rule of law and the basis of their realities.

Maybe they have something similar to P.D. :lmao2:

Do You Have Political Dementia?
http://odeo.com/episodes/23260225-Do-You-Have-Political-Dementia

Moby

01-04-2009, 05:31 PM

In the ongoing struggle between Israel and the Islamic nations, the liberals have pretty much jumped on board the Muslim support team of hatred for Jews.
How? Who is supporting Hamas and not supporting Israel right now?

Dale escondido

01-05-2009, 09:35 PM

I love how the jews dont give a shit about what we think.
GO JEWS:thumbsup:
When the muslims start fighting the terrorists among them,I will support their rights same as any other oppressed people.

Arenal

01-05-2009, 11:11 PM

I love how the jews dont give a shit about what we think.
GO JEWS:thumbsup:
When the muslims start fighting the terrorists among them,I will support their rights same as any other oppressed people.
Dale check your private messages

Roadvirus

01-06-2009, 11:23 PM

Smurf-Herder

01-06-2009, 11:59 PM

I hope Israel doesn't punk out and decide to stop in the middle of this thing. They need to finish this shit once and for all. As long as Hamas has a strong presence in the area, there will not be peace.

Especially not since Iran has been their major supporter and weapons supplier. They're now using factory-made Grad rockets, along with the older home-made Qassams.

There's a bigger picture here.

The more Israel has to deal with Hamas, the less they can concentrate on Iran.

ROdger Right

01-07-2009, 03:36 AM

Fight Iran with cheap oil, fight hamas with bullets sounds like a good plan to me.

Dale escondido

01-07-2009, 07:20 AM

Especially not since Iran has been their major supporter and weapons supplier. They're now using factory-made Grad rockets, along with the older home-made Qassams.

There's a bigger picture here.

The more Israel has to deal with Hamas, the less they can concentrate on Iran.

Yes i have wondered about that too.
The window of opportunity to deal with Iran is closing.
I think gaza needs to be permanently closed again as a mesage to the rest of the terrorists that isreal wont back down.
And they dont fight wars for nothing gained.

Smurf-Herder

01-07-2009, 08:00 AM

Yes i have wondered about that too.
The window of opportunity to deal with Iran is closing.
I think gaza needs to be permanently closed again as a mesage to the rest of the terrorists that isreal wont back down.
And they dont fight wars for nothing gained.

Hezbollah remains the wild card in all this, with over twice as many rockets than they had in 2006. Some of them now being Zelzal-2 missiles with a 150 mile range and 1200 lb warheads, from Iran.

Dale escondido

01-07-2009, 04:45 PM

Hezbollah remains the wild card in all this, with over twice as many rockets than they had in 2006. Some of them now being Zelzal-2 missiles with a 150 mile range and 1200 lb warheads, from Iran.

Doesnt it appear that hesbollah is moderating its posistion lately?
Maybe trying to represent a more legitimate leadership?
Thats my gripe with the muslims, when hamas was elected they said they would build schools and fix roads and they bought rockets instead.
Meanwhile the population sits back while they taunt isreal.
Now its a war on civilians if you believe the press. Only reports on civilian deaths, no mentions of the terrorists involved.
If the locals started feeding intelligence to fight hamas and its provactive stances I would be much more supportive.
Silence is condoning imo.

Dale escondido

01-07-2009, 04:45 PM

Smurf-Herder

01-08-2009, 12:11 AM

Doesnt it appear that hesbollah is moderating its posistion lately?
Maybe trying to represent a more legitimate leadership?
Thats my gripe with the muslims, when hamas was elected they said they would build schools and fix roads and they bought rockets instead.
Meanwhile the population sits back while they taunt isreal.
Now its a war on civilians if you believe the press. Only reports on civilian deaths, no mentions of the terrorists involved.
If the locals started feeding intelligence to fight hamas and its provactive stances I would be much more supportive.
Silence is condoning imo.

Hezbollah is being held back, for now.

There's still the question of 14,000 International Peacekeepers in the muddle.

Hamas is a general distraction.

Hezbollah is more of a front-line special forces. They're finishing up solidifying control of Lebanon. The latest news is Lebanon wants Hezbollah to train their national army, which is receiving western equipment. Whereas Hezbollah was to totally be disarmed, they've become much more powerful ... especially after that coup in Beirut a while back.

SeedyROM

01-09-2009, 04:36 AM

PS.
The reason Hamas got democratically elected is precisely because they were feeding people & taking care of people while the corrupt PLO was not.

Ain't it amazing,
the USA HATES REAL DEMOCRACY.

I guess that is why stolen elections here have become common.

Hamas hasn't fed anyone, why do you think they tore through the wall the Jews built? Because Hamas is only interested in death, destruction and getting rich. As for Hamas I say kill'em, kill'em twice!!! :thumbsup:

SeedyROM

01-09-2009, 04:37 AM

How did they get elected?

Vote or die, that's how Hamas was elected.

Soro's funds media groups to defend Palestine, sure the humanitarian side of Soro's is okay. But his money has poisened the minds of the masses. I hate it that Palestinians are caught in the middle, but they voted for something they didn't understand or did they fear not supporting Hamas?

Dale escondido

01-09-2009, 08:41 PM

Vote or die, that's how Hamas was elected.

Soro's funds media groups to defend Palestine, sure the humanitarian side of Soro's is okay. But his money has poisened the minds of the masses. I hate it that Palestinians are caught in the middle, but they voted for something they didn't understand or did they fear not supporting Hamas?

Its hard not to feel for palestinians and want a solution.
But it is a cruel world and they have got to show they dont support terror with their silence.
Isreal probably feel they have to make them more affraid of them than Hamas.
If we cant find a way to educate these peoples, not indoctrinate, the cycle will never stop short of genocide.

Smurf-Herder

01-10-2009, 01:38 PM

I was just thinking ...

Hamas is like Israel's Taliban.

SeedyROM

01-11-2009, 04:13 AM

Its hard not to feel for palestinians and want a solution.
But it is a cruel world and they have got to show they dont support terror with their silence.
Isreal probably feel they have to make them more affraid of them than Hamas.
If we cant find a way to educate these peoples, not indoctrinate, the cycle will never stop short of genocide.

Indeed, the cycle of violence has to end. I feel the Jews want peace for Palestinians. Hamas will never give them anything, Hamas is a faux democratic party. They have nothing in common with traditional government.

Hog Trash

01-11-2009, 05:46 PM

Dale escondido

01-11-2009, 08:58 PM

I'm beginning to question the statistics of just how many Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are actually "innocent".

I wonder how these statistics are determined and mainly who determines them?...Is it Muslim or liberal groups?

Thats exactly what I think.
Its always hard to fight an enemy without a uniform in an urban area.
The Isrealis have to treat all as enemies in these assaults.
When muslims start standing up and showing they dont support radical islamiac terror, the isrealis will proceed with even more caution knowing they face friends and foes.
But as it stands now I would assume all are enemies.
What did these fools think was going to happen when they started shooting rockets at isreal?

disrupter

01-11-2009, 11:47 PM

How did Israel expect Hamas to respond when the Israeli gestapo sneaks in & assassinates palestinians at will with impunity?

How would we respond if Canadians or Mexicans sneaked across the border & assassinated American community leaders?

A bunch of homemade rockets would be the least of their worries.

Please get the facts straight, don't be fooled by the media propaganda.

Scumbag

01-12-2009, 01:07 AM

How did Israel expect Hamas to respond when the Israeli gestapo sneaks in & assassinates palestinians at will with impunity?
Isreali gestapo? Ha ha! Hamas is not firing rockets at Israel in retaliation for assssinations of Palestinians, dummy. They're doing to because they're terrorists. The "Palestinians" you're referring to as those assissinated are Hamas terroists. You should get YOUR facts straight.

How would we respond if Canadians or Mexicans sneaked across the border & assassinated American community leaders?

We'd probably erect a monument to them!

:lmao2: :lmao2:

disrupter

01-12-2009, 06:00 AM

Scumbag IS a traitor.
We'd probably erect a monument to them!
[for murdering Americans]

it is now official. signed, sealed & certified.

Hog Trash

01-12-2009, 07:08 AM

How would we respond if Canadians or Mexicans sneaked across the border & assassinated American community leaders?
Would you happen to know if these assasins will take requests?

Dale escondido

01-12-2009, 07:42 AM

Scumbag IS a traitor.

it is now official. signed, sealed & certified.

You post some pretty vicious words against government and business and at times Ive seen some suggesting demise of bush cheney.
Yet when we are having fun with an evil thought (maybe) you feel compelled to underline we are killing americans even if just in our minds.
Signed ,confused as usual.

Mr. Blue

01-12-2009, 08:10 AM

I'm beginning to question the statistics of just how many Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are actually "innocent".

I wonder how these statistics are determined and mainly who determines them?...Is it Muslim or liberal groups?

There's always innocent people that always get hurt when the powers that be decide to push their agenda. Let's just look at America for a moment...how many people are really politically active? How many people actually vote? How many people know the issues, I mean really know the issues, before they cast a vote?

The majority of Americans are sheep in this regard and should we judge the people of Palestine with a different view? The majority of people there get spun by politics just like Americans do over here. It's very easy for a terrorist organization like Hamas to take power in the region because of the economic conditions that existed.

Israel gives Gaza, but puts a stranglehold on it, then Bush rushes and pushes for elections (spread democracy at all costs failing yet again), and it was bound to mean a Hamas win in the region.

Unfortunately Israel and The US, basically allowed Hamas to gain power...they fucked up...a better course of action would have been to support Fatah, Abbas, and work towards peace, but instead they sat on their hands and now they have to get their hands bloody removing the cancer that they allowed to grow. Just like Chemotherapy, you kill good cells to get after the cancer cells, which more or less means you will have innocent victims. Maybe it's a necessary evil to save the body as a whole, but still...

This backwards notion of spreading Democracy before you have stability is what's killing the region or this notion that Democracy is necessarily a good thing unto itself. Expect a similar problem in Iraq within 10 to 20 years.

disrupter

01-12-2009, 05:16 PM

Dale escondido

01-12-2009, 06:36 PM

Dale i am trying to illustrate the facts of life that Gazans suffer under.

Some people are 'challenged' trying to put themselves in another human being's shoes that doesn't fit into their prescribed cliques.

Imagine someone coming in & bombing & killing every police officer in the USA?
Hamas IS the police of Gaza.
The democratically elected Hamas.

Our police arent shooting missiles into mexico and canada.
If they were I would re-evaluate them and probably at least protest not condone.

Hog Trash

01-12-2009, 06:59 PM

Please get the facts straight, don't be fooled by the media propaganda.Many of the media reports I've been seeing are portraying the "Gazans" as the victims....Which propaganda should I ignore?

Smurf-Herder

01-12-2009, 07:18 PM

SeedyROM

01-13-2009, 01:41 AM

Dale i am trying to illustrate the facts of life that Gazans suffer under.

Some people are 'challenged' trying to put themselves in another human being's shoes that doesn't fit into their prescribed cliques.

Imagine someone coming in & bombing & killing every police officer in the USA?
Hamas IS the police of Gaza.
The democratically elected Hamas.

Gazans voted under the gun for a so called party which is actually a party of death. Once Hamas has been shocked and awed into the grave, then and only then could Palestinians and the Jews begin to work out there differences. Hamas has no interest in peace and prosperity.

K_90

01-15-2009, 10:18 AM

Gazans voted under the gun for a so called party which is actually a party of death. Once Hamas has been shocked and awed into the grave, then and only then could Palestinians and the Jews begin to work out there differences. Hamas has no interest in peace and prosperity.

Actually Hamas offered peace, but were ignored by both the United States and Israel. All they asked for in return was an end to the blockade.

And this has nothing to do with Israel protecting its citizens, since they began an offensive in November without provocation from Hamas. And please don't make a statement calling me a liar, since this is the official view of the Israeli governement(although they are trying to keep it quiet).

Hog Trash

01-15-2009, 10:25 AM

K_90

01-15-2009, 10:28 AM

But being connected, you were able to obtain this "quiet" information, right? :thumbsup:

i didn't say that they are keeping it secret, however if you doubt me it was an Israeli spokesman called Merk Regev.

Hog Trash

01-15-2009, 10:30 AM

i didn't say that they are keeping it secret, however if you doubt me it was an Israeli spokesman called Merk Regev.By what authority does Merk speak for Israel?

K_90

01-15-2009, 10:31 AM

He is an official government representative. So why don't you try to figure that one out for yourself.

Hog Trash

01-15-2009, 10:47 AM

He is an official government representative. So why don't you try to figure that one out for yourself.You have to excuse my skeptism...I am always suspicious of any information I receive from a liberal.

So you believe Hamas along with the Palestinians desire to live in peace with the Jews, but the Israeli's prefer War?

And if so, does the rest of the muslim nations also seek peace with Israel?

K_90

01-15-2009, 10:57 AM

You have to excuse my skeptism...I am always suspicious of any information I receive from a liberal.

So you believe Hamas along with the Palestinians desire to live in peace with the Jews, but the Israeli's prefer War?

And if so, does the rest of the muslim nations also seek peace with Israel?

I believe that Hamas should receive an appropriate punishment for its complete disregard for civilian lives, however the Israeli government is far worse and should also be punished accordingly. As for the civilians, they do not have to earn their rights to exist, neither Palestinians, nor Israelis.

As for the Israelis; the only ones that prefer war is the government. I know a few people from Israel who are disgusted by the actions taken by their government.

I never made any claims concerning the rest of the Middle East. And my opinions concerning them have nothing to do with the people of Palestine.

Hog Trash

01-15-2009, 11:19 AM

I believe that Hamas should receive an appropriate punishment for its complete disregard for civilian lives,I thought the claims were, Hamas wasn't at fault. What "disregard for civilian lives" should they be punished for?

By the way, you forgot to answer my question.

K_90

01-15-2009, 11:24 AM

I thought the claims were, Hamas wasn't at fault. What "disregard for civilian lives" should they be punished for?

I never made that claim. I simply pointed out that the aggressor is the Israeli government.

However I do not believe that the fact that they did not begin the aggression justifies their actions directed towards Israeli civilians. And I never claimed anything else.

Hog Trash

01-15-2009, 11:30 AM

I never made that claim. I simply pointed out that the aggressor is the Israeli government.

However I do not believe that the fact that they did not begin the aggression justifies their actions directed towards Israeli civilians. And I never claimed anything else.What do you believe the motivation was for the unprovoked attack by Israel?

K_90

01-15-2009, 11:45 AM

What do you believe the motivation was for the unprovoked attack by Israel?

I do not know.

Some theories I have heard talk about the upcoming elections in Israel, while others concern the end of Bush's term as a president

However there are no facts that I am aware of that support either, so I will not claim that there is any validity to these theories.

Hog Trash

01-15-2009, 12:16 PM

I do not know.

Some theories I have heard talk about the upcoming elections in Israel, while others concern the end of Bush's term as a president

However there are no facts that I am aware of that support either, so I will not claim that there is any validity to these theories.Kind of odd that the more peaceful of the two people are the aggressors as opposed to the people who have a long history of being violent, don't you think?

K_90

01-15-2009, 12:30 PM

Kind of odd that the more peaceful of the two people are the aggressors as opposed to the people who have a long history of being violent, don't you think?

I don't see anything peaceful about attacks on UN buildings, the development of nuclear weapons, a blockade of humanitarian aid, or opening fire on fishermen although they have a clear right to go further out than the Israeli government is letting them.

The continuous occupation of Palestinian territory can not possibly be interpreted as peaceful.

I am not claim that Palestine has not been the aggressor at several occasions, however history does not change the facts about this conflict, and there can be no serious argument concerning who the aggressor was, since you have no facts to support your idea that Hamas initiated the current conflict.

Smurf-Herder

01-15-2009, 01:44 PM

I don't see anything peaceful about attacks on UN buildings, the development of nuclear weapons, a blockade of humanitarian aid, or opening fire on fishermen although they have a clear right to go further out than the Israeli government is letting them.

The continuous occupation of Palestinian territory can not possibly be interpreted as peaceful.

I am not claim that Palestine has not been the aggressor at several occasions, however history does not change the facts about this conflict, and there can be no serious argument concerning who the aggressor was, since you have no facts to support your idea that Hamas initiated the current conflict.

They fired 300 rockets into Israel the week before the Israeli offensive.

Weren't you paying attention?

3000 rockets in 2008 alone, including during the "ceasefire; before the present Israeli response.

Smurf-Herder

01-15-2009, 01:47 PM

Actually Hamas offered peace, but were ignored by both the United States and Israel. All they asked for in return was an end to the blockade.

And this has nothing to do with Israel protecting its citizens, since they began an offensive in November without provocation from Hamas. And please don't make a statement calling me a liar, since this is the official view of the Israeli governement(although they are trying to keep it quiet).

How has Hamas offered peace, when their entire existance is dedicated to the destruction of Israel?

They refuse to renounce terrorist rocket attacks and refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. How is that a peace offer. Virtually every single person in Washington has stated this repeatedly - even Obama.

No talks until they meet those two basic requirements.

K_90

01-15-2009, 01:54 PM

How has Hamas offered peace, when their entire existance is dedicated to the destruction of Israel?

They refuse to renounce terrorist rocket attacks and refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. How is that a peace offer. Virtually every single person in Washington has stated this repeatedly.

They offered to end all hostilities in exchange for Israel respecting the borders agreed upon before the 6-day war. Don't question facts.

And of course the people in Washington support Israeli actions. They are the closest allies of the US.

K_90

01-15-2009, 02:01 PM

And none of the rockets fired during the last few months were fired by Hamas. Even the Israeli government agrees about that.

Check your facts.

Smurf-Herder

01-15-2009, 02:04 PM

They offered to end all hostilities in exchange for Israel respecting the borders agreed upon before the 6-day war. Don't question facts.

And of course the people in Washington support Israeli actions. They are the closest allies of the US.

How did the manage that if the refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to even exist - let alone continue to fire rockets during the ceasefire they agreed to?

Smurf-Herder

01-15-2009, 02:04 PM

And none of the rockets fired during the last few months were fired by Hamas. Even the Israeli government agrees about that.

Check your facts.

Bullshit!

Prove it.

K_90

01-15-2009, 02:08 PM

Look one post up for the second part of your statement.

And the offer of peace was done through the Israeli media. The Israeli government chose to ignore it.

K_90

01-15-2009, 02:11 PM

Bullshit!

Prove it.

http://the-osterley-times.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-admits-no-hamas-rockets-were.html

Smurf-Herder

01-15-2009, 02:15 PM

http://the-osterley-times.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-admits-no-hamas-rockets-were.html

WTF?

Are you all there?

K_90

01-15-2009, 02:16 PM

And whats that supposed to mean?

Smurf-Herder

01-15-2009, 02:16 PM

Look one post up for the second part of your statement.

And the offer of peace was done through the Israeli media. The Israeli government chose to ignore it.

Are you saying they renounced terrorist acts and aknowledged Israel's right to exist?

K_90

01-15-2009, 02:21 PM

Instead of asking me to give you all facts maybe you could try to do a bit of research into it before making any comments.

Smurf-Herder

01-15-2009, 02:32 PM

Instead of asking me to give you all facts maybe you could try to do a bit of research into it before making any comments.

Maybe you should back up what you say.

I've been following everything closely for the last 35 years; and have posted numerous links since I've been here to back up what I've already said.

You don't seem to have a clue.

K_90

01-15-2009, 02:37 PM

Smurf-Herder

01-15-2009, 02:49 PM

I am surprised that someone who has been following it for that long does not seem to be aware of some of the most basic facts of the current conflict.

The statement was not issued by Hamas, but the previous party in power(which both Israel and the US consider to be the official government).

And as for me not having a clue. I'm simply not going to comment on that. I have not made a single false statement.

Well, that isn't Hamas is it?

Negotiations on details were in the process with Abbas, until Hamas started lobbing rockets over, to prevent that from happening.

The way the PA and Hamas deal with Israel are two totally different things.

Smurf-Herder

01-15-2009, 03:00 PM

Palestinian Authority and Israel will resume peace talks, Rice says

March 06, 2008

With help from an Egyptian cease-fire proposal for the Gaza Strip, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice persuaded the U.S.-backed Palestinian leadership today to resume peace talks with Israel.

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas had halted the negotiations Sunday over an Israeli incursion into Gaza and had rebuffed Rice’s entreaties Tuesday to change his mind. But after speaking to Abbas by telephone today, Rice announced here that the peace talks were back on track.

Abbas later confirmed the reversal in a statement from his West Bank headquarters. He said his moderate Palestinian faction remained committed to the “strategic choice” of negotiations as a means for achieving an independent state alongside Israel.

“We have the intention of resuming the peace process,” he said.

Neither Rice nor Abbas said when the talks would restart.

President Bush, who helped launch the peace talks at a November conference in Annapolis, Md., is pushing for agreement by the end of his term on the main issues of a final settlement – borders, the status of Palestinian refugees and conflicting claims to Jerusalem.

But the effort is threatened by violence in Gaza, where the ruling Hamas faction calls for Israel’s destruction and opposes the peace talks.

Israel said its five-day assault on Gaza, which ended Monday, was aimed at stopping a growing barrage of rocket fire at its border communities. Palestinian outrage over the death toll in Gaza, which exceeded 100 and included many civilians, prompted Abbas to suspend the talks.

Rice had planned her two-day visit to Egypt, the West Bank and Israel before the incursion, hoping to advance the talks. Instead she struggled to rescue them from collapse.

“Hamas, which holds the people of Gaza hostage in their hands, is now trying to make the path to a Palestinian state hostage to them,” Rice said during a news conference in Jerusalem with Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni. “We cannot allow that to happen.”

Abbas’ spokesman, Nabil abu Rudaineh, said two assurances from Rice swayed the Palestinian leader to drop his condition that a truce take hold in Gaza before talks resume.

Rice said she was sending David Welch, assistant secretary of State for Near Eastern affairs, back to Cairo for discussions about Gaza, the topic of her talks with Egyptian officials Tuesday.

And she promised to dispatch Lt. Gen. William Fraser III to the region next week to assess progress on incremental steps agreed to in Annapolis. Abbas’ aides said they hope Fraser will pressure Israel to halt Jewish settlement activity and to ease travel restrictions for Palestinians in the West Bank.

Palestinian officials took Welch’s return to Cairo as a sign of U.S. support for Egyptian efforts to bring calm to Gaza.

A cease-fire is part of a proposed Egyptian package that would also include the reopening of the border between Gaza and Egypt, the release of an Israeli soldier seized by Gaza militants in 2006, and tighter security to prevent Hamas from smuggling weapons from Egypt through tunnels under the border.

Israel Radio said Rice briefed Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and other Israeli officials on the Egyptian proposal.

But she was vague about it at the news conference and avoided the term “cease-fire,” apparently because it might imply support for indirect negotiations with Hamas, which the Bush administration considers a terrorist organization and has worked to isolate.

“We’re not trying to broker something here,” Rice said, noting that Israel has its own contacts with Egypt. “It’s just a matter of all parties discussing” Gaza.

Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit, in a news conference with Rice on Tuesday, suggested that the effort to isolate Hamas cannot continue.

“We have to admit that Hamas is part of the Palestinian equation and should be dealt with,” he said. “If Hamas corrects its path, stops using violence and puts an end to military operations, this will open the door for it to join the [peace] process.”

Abdel Monein Said, director of the Al Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies in Cairo, said Egyptian security officials have held four meetings recently with Hamas leaders trying to broker a truce with Israel.

“There are huge pressures on Hamas now,” he said, noting the dwindling supplies of electricity, fuel and food due to an Israeli blockade of Gaza. By stepping up its own electricity supplies and humanitarian aid, Egypt is “trying to entice Hamas to stop firing rockets,” he said.

Olmert left open the possibility of an unofficial truce with Hamas, telling reporters: “If there is no rocket fire at Israel, there won’t be Israeli attacks on Gaza.”

But a statement issued by Olmert’s office said Israel would act “continuously and systematically” to stop the rockets and weaken Hamas, even as peace talks with the moderate Palestinians resume.

Livni, the Israeli foreign minister, challenged Abbas to stick with the talks and let Israel deal with Hamas as it sees fit.

“Peace negotiations are not a gift that somebody gives the other,” she said. “It’s a mutual interest, a mutual aspiration and a mutual dream of our two peoples,” she said.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/06/world/fg-mideast6

K_90

01-15-2009, 03:26 PM

Quoting a biased article?

As for them opposing the peace talks. They are trying to defend the people of Palestine, true their methods are unacceptable, however they did not start this conflict. Which I already pointed out, but you chose to ignore that fact, even when presented with evidence.

I really think you should re-think your support of the Israeli government, but first you should do a bit of research(without using biased sources).

And once you are willing to accept the reality of the situation you will realize that the Israeli government is far worse than Hamas. And making statements about Hamas' ideology is a clear sign of ignorance since the Israeli government has made similar statements about the people of Palestine.

Smurf-Herder

01-15-2009, 03:29 PM

K_90

01-15-2009, 03:32 PM

Smurf-Herder

01-15-2009, 03:35 PM

I never claimed to agree with the actions taken by Hamas.

And as for human shields, Israel has been accused by the UN for doing the same thing.

I posted a video with an interview with an Israeli official. But you chose to ignore it since it does not conform to your point of view.

Did you post that in a response to me?

I don't read everything that's responding to others.

Israel using who as human shields?

That sounds dumb. Are you saying Israel fires rockets from apartment buildings, schools and mosques into Gaza?

K_90

01-15-2009, 03:38 PM

Did you post that in a response to me?

I don't read everything that's responding to others.

Israel using who as human shields?

That sounds dumb.

Yes it was directed towards you.

Doesn't matter if it sounds dumb. A fact is a fact, and they have been accused by the UN of using people as human shields. And the UN usually does not base accusations on anything but facts.

Still no comment about the video I posted.

Smurf-Herder

01-15-2009, 04:03 PM

Yes it was directed towards you.

Doesn't matter if it sounds dumb. A fact is a fact, and they have been accused by the UN of using people as human shields. And the UN usually does not base accusations on anything but facts.

Still no comment about the video I posted.

Initially, for some strange reason, that link brought me to the edit screen on my own post.

That's why I responded with "WTF? Are you all there?"

Now I'm watching the video - but all I hear is static.

K_90

01-15-2009, 04:06 PM

Initially, for some strange reason, that link brought me to the edit screen on my own post.

That's why I responded with "WTF? Are you all there?"

Now I'm watching the video - but all I hear is static.

Oh now that comment makes a lot more sense. That was actually my fault, I copied the wrong link, which I apologize for.

But I thought I changed it before you had time to check the link. Guess I was wrong. Again. I apologize.

Hog Trash

01-15-2009, 04:56 PM

Are you saying they renounced terrorist acts and aknowledged Israel's right to exist?This is some shocking news K-90 has layed on us, Smurf.

Those damn murdering, blood-thirsty Jew savages.

I don't understand why they won't leave those poor muslims alone.

Smurf-Herder

01-15-2009, 05:51 PM

Oh now that comment makes a lot more sense. That was actually my fault, I copied the wrong link, which I apologize for.

But I thought I changed it before you had time to check the link. Guess I was wrong. Again. I apologize.

Okay, I'm getting it now. Apparently something's screwing up my browser and other programs.

I would like to hear the end of this guy's statement, after the word "correct". He was cut-off in mid sentence. I know this guy and he is a representative for the Israeli government. I've seen him numerous times. But I believe the thought at the time was that the rockets were fired by Islamic Jihad. And they are now under the Hamas umbrella, so to speak - plausible deniability, like the rockets being fired from Lebanon twice this week, which Hezbollah denies being involved with.

Still, your assertion that the Israelis broke the ceasefire is based on believing they lied about the tunnel being dug. But either way, I thought part of the ceasefire deal was returning the Israeli soldier kidnapped back in 2006; which never happened.

And even with all that, Hamas refused to extend the ceasefire (during which they smuggled in Iranian-made Grad rockets), then fired 300 rockets into Israel during a single week in December, before Israel responded with the current offensive.

It all boils down to Hamas ending all rocket fire, returning the kidnapped soldier (or his remains), actually renouncing terrorist activity and acknowledging Israel's right to exist, negotiating in good faith; and spending their resources on building a nation, instead of building an arsenal of rockets. Or the cycle will never end peacefully.

Moby

01-15-2009, 06:53 PM

You have to excuse my skeptism...I am always suspicious of any information I receive from a liberal.
But anything written by a Neoconservative blogger is considered fact in your brain. Why is that?

I know people have spent a lot of money to get you to that point but why do you comply?

SeedyROM

01-15-2009, 08:19 PM

SeedyROM

01-15-2009, 08:20 PM

I never made that claim. I simply pointed out that the aggressor is the Israeli government.

However I do not believe that the fact that they did not begin the aggression justifies their actions directed towards Israeli civilians. And I never claimed anything else.

Liar, your a fucking terrorist sympathizer, fucking moron!
You have no proof nor credibility!!

SeedyROM

01-15-2009, 08:22 PM

Check out the video of Hamas strategy to use human death and suffering in an effort to gain appeal from people who do not fully understand the terrorist strategy. Hamas is not a democratic party!!!

IDF Captures Hamas Intelligence Map - Lt. Barak Raz - 10 Jan. 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI1q3etFX2k&eurl=http://macsmind.com/wordpress/

Hamas admits they use human shields in 2008. Why would anyone trust Hamas press releases???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-AUE9ycs&feature=related

Hamas booby traps school & zoo with explosives, follow the fuse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHhs9ihSmbU&feature=related

The children of Hamas, higher education at its deadliest! Notice snipers using
kids as shields.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8&feature=related

Using Mickey Mouse to teach terrorism to kids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4&feature=related

disrupter

01-15-2009, 09:18 PM

SeedyROM is a paid Mossad terrorist & a traitor to the USA.

ROdger Right

01-15-2009, 09:25 PM

Whats USA stand for these days? Im against Hamas but there needs to be alot more people killed everywhere so we can hurry up and starve billions of people by taking down those who control this global empire.

disrupter

01-15-2009, 09:28 PM

Chaos allows world criminals to escape scott free in the confusion & trauma.

ROdger Right

01-15-2009, 09:41 PM

I rather have terrible criminals than a government that is false.
At times the strong but ill positioned need to take their place even if it means breaking every humane law created. We can not always be dragged down by the weak and not act bceause its not in the weaks best interests. Nature rules all it is folly to think other wise.

disrupter

01-15-2009, 09:45 PM

The criminals ARE the government.

There are 3 levels of organized crime.

The smoothest is government,
a close second are corporations,
& a weak 3rd is actual 'organized crime'.

ROdger Right

01-15-2009, 09:58 PM

so we agree.
id put #1 as corporations because tehy control much of the governments action.
terrorism is chaos if i infer you right which then we let the opposite to take control which is worse.

Smurf-Herder

01-16-2009, 12:18 AM

Chaos allows world criminals to escape scott free in the confusion & trauma.

Nobody's getting outta here.

Everyone will get their just due.

SeedyROM

01-16-2009, 02:25 AM

Actually Hamas offered peace, but were ignored by both the United States and Israel. All they asked for in return was an end to the blockade.

And this has nothing to do with Israel protecting its citizens, since they began an offensive in November without provocation from Hamas. And please don't make a statement calling me a liar, since this is the official view of the Israeli governement(although they are trying to keep it quiet).

Hamas has never asked for peace. Provide proof from legitimate MSM sources, preferable USA media???????

Hamas has been firing rockets all summer long. You are a liar and a fool. No doubt you are a terrorist sympathizer and a racist!!!

K_90

01-16-2009, 08:49 AM

Hamas has never asked for peace. Provide proof from legitimate MSM sources, preferable USA media???????

Hamas has been firing rockets all summer long. You are a liar and a fool. No doubt you are a terrorist sympathizer and a racist!!!

You are calling me a liar although I am only presenting another side of the story.

You are calling me a racist although I am the one expressing a wish for an end to the hostilities, while you want to kill more people.

Instead of throwing baseless accusations at me, try to argue using reason and your limited understanding of a very complex situation where neither side seems to respect human lives.

If someone presented me with real proof that Israel was trying to end the hostilities and are in fact as innocent as they claim I would accept that and apologize for my mistake. However you seem to ignore facts because they do not support your current ideology. I hope you can see the difference between us.

disrupter

01-16-2009, 11:03 AM

The supporters of this current atrocity are out of balance.

It is almost impossible for them to see reason.

They are committed to blind irrationality.

SeedyROM

01-17-2009, 04:17 AM

You are calling me a liar although I am only presenting another side of the story.

You are calling me a racist although I am the one expressing a wish for an end to the hostilities, while you want to kill more people.

Instead of throwing baseless accusations at me, try to argue using reason and your limited understanding of a very complex situation where neither side seems to respect human lives.

If someone presented me with real proof that Israel was trying to end the hostilities and are in fact as innocent as they claim I would accept that and apologize for my mistake. However you seem to ignore facts because they do not support your current ideology. I hope you can see the difference between us.
Actually, war and occupation is the only solution to root out terrorism in Gaza. You just have to comprehend the military logic, well you'd have to be educated first. But the fact is, Israel has been under fire since Truman returned the Jews to thier rightful home. A ceasefire will lead to more violence. Capture, kill, occupy then work out thier differences. The previous occupations by Eygypt, the UK, etc.... have failed because they were mishandled and the US intervened. This time could be differnet. I know far more about strategy than you could imagine. Cease fires always lead to more attacks. The Jews have been persecuted for over 1000 years!
Check out this 90 second video

http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

K_90

01-17-2009, 05:01 AM

Actually, war and occupation is the only solution to root out terrorism in Gaza. You just have to comprehend the military logic, well you'd have to be educated first. But the fact is, Israel has been under fire since Truman returned the Jews to thier rightful home. A ceasefire will lead to more violence. Capture, kill, occupy then work out thier differences. The previous occupations by Eygypt, the UK, etc.... have failed because they were mishandled and the US intervened. This time could be differnet. I know far more about strategy than you could imagine. Cease fires always lead to more attacks. The Jews have been persecuted for over 1000 years!

The military logic is flawed, which you should be able to understand if you have any real comprehension of the situation. The imposing of collective punishment will not change the Palestinian public's opinion towards Israel in a positive way. And this tactic rarely has any success, which you should know if you had such a great understanding of military tactics.

And as for the US intervening. When they do it is done to support Israel, and nothing else. Which they have shown by how they have used their veto in the UN 43 times to prevent any criticism or actions from being taken against Israel.

As for your capture, kill, occupy ideas. It is strictly prohibited by International law to execute prisoners, although it would not be surprising if they do that, since they already have shown a complete disregard for other points in the Geneva convention.

ROdger Right

01-17-2009, 07:07 AM

K_90

01-17-2009, 07:18 AM

Your logic is flawed altogether. You do not attack your enemy with half a heart. A war thats to be won in that land heavy population casulties must occur if either wants to live in peace. Genghis slaughtered his enemies and ruled peacefully.
Any one taller than a door handle on a car has to die.
When you fight you have to destroy your opponents ability to fight you for ever.
There is no peace in what you say, just conflict

Khan was considered a tyrant.
And no, you do not attack an enemy with half a heart. You do not attack altogether.

And don't try to sound clever by saying "There is no peace in what you say, just conflict". The split between the Middle East and the Western world has occurred mainly due to Israeli policies when it comes to dealing with Arabs. And Israel keeps providing more fuel for the flames.

The eradication of a whole nation has never been successfully completed, and it wont be this time either. What is being done now will only add to the hatred of Israeli's.

And you clearly lack any real perspective on things, since you are willing to label Hamas as a terrorist organization, but then support their opponents and want them to kill not only the Hamas, but also all the people of Palestine.

Try to understand that of the two of us, you are the only one who supports terrorist actions.

ROdger Right

01-17-2009, 04:23 PM

MMM When a christian king bathed an army of muslims in pigs blood he was rewarded with peace in that land for the rest of his life.
khan ruled from one end alone so you could call him what you want but he didnt kill people who submitted to his rule.
Interrupt history so no lesson can be learned. No victor emerges. 20 years of this will probably be lead to more death than what i propose.

ROdger Right

01-17-2009, 05:49 PM

K_90

01-17-2009, 11:45 PM

I picked out a movie entirely for its song in the beggining so id get the words correct. Nobodys right if everybodys wrong.
Your born a little late if you wanted to keep a tally on all the bad things isreal and muslims do to eachother.
Thought i came up with a real solution to the problem at hand. You just want everybody to smell flowers together like a fucking idiot. That shit will never happen but you think your smart because you disagree with responsible war. If only you knew how insignificant pointing out faults really is with a people that have been fighting for 1000s of years.
With all your thought you tend to leave out the nature of humans, i do not make that mistake.

Knowing what is being done does not make me a retard, however ignoring facts and refusing to see what is really happening is retarded.
You did not come up with a solution. You think you did, however Hitler thoughts so to.
And these people have not been fighting for thousands of years. Palestine used to be a safe haven for Jews all over the world until the Zionist movement decided to change that. Which you would have known if you had any real comprehension of the situation.

And as for them smelling flowers together; that is exactly what was being done before Zionist showed up. Jews, Arabs, and people of other religions were able to live and function in harmony with each other. Which you would have known if you had actually studied what is happening, and what has happened in the past.

I do not leave out human nature of the equation, however I seriously doubt you have any really understanding of human behavior and the theories connected to it. I have studied psychology for years now, as well as social and cultural anthropology. What have you done that gives you a better understanding of human behavior than me?
Probably nothing, however you believe that, with your limited knowledge, you are able to form functional theories about societies and the individuals in those societies. However you are most likely not able to do so.

But I will put your ideas into words. You believe, like Freud(however in a limited and cruder form), that the id controls peoples actions, and that human behavior is directly linked to a never-ending pursuit of pleasure, whether it is sexual or not does not matter.

However most psychologists have dismissed this theory for, either more traditional theories, or post-freudian theories, such as Jung's theory. There is no actual evidence to support the idea of people seeking pleasure at the expense of all else. There is support for his ideas of a subconscious mind, however the subconscious is better explained by people such as Jung.

Do not try to sound rational with irrational thoughts, since people will most likely see through your facade.

ROdger Right

01-18-2009, 04:53 PM

Yes, Yes all this started last century blah blah blah.
Your full of shit tlking abouit freud. We al can live in peace but no one can forever and how many boarding countries do not recongize isreal?
For your information people usually dont seek pleasure at expense of all else because of your ego and superego. Thats what we call the control factor.

Yes, put the blame on hitler but i rather of had him than the right person who would of won the war.
so far ive had one idea youve had 0

Smurf-Herder

01-18-2009, 10:43 PM

BTW, there's now a ceasefire and Israel's pulling out.

Israel plans to complete Gaza pullout before Obama inauguration

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3658377,00.html

ROdger Right

01-19-2009, 04:28 AM

If this war ever ends we should call it by how long it went on for beginning from the 6 day war.

SeedyROM

01-20-2009, 04:28 AM

The military logic is flawed, which you should be able to understand if you have any real comprehension of the situation. The imposing of collective punishment will not change the Palestinian public's opinion towards Israel in a positive way. And this tactic rarely has any success, which you should know if you had such a great understanding of military tactics.

And as for the US intervening. When they do it is done to support Israel, and nothing else. Which they have shown by how they have used their veto in the UN 43 times to prevent any criticism or actions from being taken against Israel.

As for your capture, kill, occupy ideas. It is strictly prohibited by International law to execute prisoners, although it would not be surprising if they do that, since they already have shown a complete disregard for other points in the Geneva convention.

I know more about military tactics than you do, sit back and wait till Hamas violates the cease fire again. I retired O-4 from the navy, don't talk to me about flawed logic when clearly you are uneducated and lack comprehension on strategy. Israel has been under fire for over 1000 years, yet they are called the bad guys repeatedly. You have no understanding of tactics, if you did then you'd realize complacency leads to further attacks.

You misunderstood or simply spun the capture or kill theory. Capture those who surrender, those who don't will surely die on the battle field. There is no violation of Int. Law when two parties are fighting so again you lack comprehension. Typical of liberals who side with Hamas terrorists.