Bush Reintroduces School Voucher Plan

[AJ]

I just sent an email to my Congressman, excuse me Congresswoman demanding she support the presidents plan for school vouchers.
Rep.Carolyn.Maloney@mail.house.gov

all of you would be smart to do the same. Our childrens future is at stake
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Jan24/0,4670,StateofUnionEducation,00.html

If this catches on our children will have the opportunity to have the religious curriculum that they need to bring a moral balance to their lives

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Jan24/0,4670,StateofUnionEducation,00.html


The Education Department released a detailed plan Wednesday morning, the day after the president talked of improving the law during his State of the Union speech.

The plan would require states to develop standards and tests linked to what high school graduates should know and be able to do when they go to college or go to work.

"Students _ particularly in the later grades _ must be challenged to succeed, whether they are entering college or the highly competitive marketplace," Education Secretary Margaret Spellings said in a statement Wednesday.

The proposal also would make it easier for failing schools to be converted into charter schools, even if that means overriding state-imposed limits on charters. The proposal also would enable school administrators, in some circumstances, to ignore provisions of union contracts linked to staffing.

The five-year-old law seeks to ensure that all children can read and do math at grade level by 2014, which has placed unprecedented demands on schools. They have been required to step up testing, raise teacher quality and place more attention on the achievements of minority children.

Schools that fail to meet progress goals face consequences, such as having to spend money on tutoring or being forced to overhaul their staffs.

The law is set for renewal this year. The changes being proposed that the White House unveiled Tuesday include:

_Holding schools accountable for science scores, something not currently in the law.

_Requiring states to publish a report card showing how students do on state tests compared to a rigorous national test. That could put pressure on states to strengthen their assessments and standards.

_Making tutoring more widely available.

_Giving schools more flexibility in meeting annual progress goals, such as giving those that make significant strides but fall short of benchmarks credit for the progress they did make.

One change showcased by the White House a few hours before President Bush gave his State of the Union speech would give poor students private school vouchers, something that is unlikely to win approval from the Democratic-controlled Congress.

California Democratic Rep. George Miller, who chairs the House committee overseeing education, called the initiative a "failed idea" that would be rejected.

The administration tried but was unable to include a voucher program in the No Child Left Behind law when it was first passed by Congress five years ago.

White House officials say a private school voucher program makes sense for students in schools that are consistently failing to meet progress goals under the No Child Left Behind law.

"This is not for every kid in America," White House Deputy Chief of Staff Joel Kaplan said. "This is for those kids who are trapped in the absolute worst schools that just don't seem to be capable, or willing, to make the changes necessary to serve those students well."

[Linkster]

This is exactly why the no child left behind program sucks - it allows for rewarding children that dont do well at no fault to their educational system and again shows the administrations plans to try to get rid of all unions.

If we stopped believing that every parent has to do their childs homework so that they can make the "honor roll" and stop rewarding poor behaviour, then maybe we can get back to a school system without a political noose around its neck - heck maybe we can even get back to spanking kids like they sometimes need it - even in school

as far as the religious part - if they want to go to a religious private school then they should have to pay for it - although I can tell you that every republican from the south will be dumped from congress if their voters find out about that they vote for these vouchers - this is the only way the southern states legally can still have segregation - and living where I do I guarantee you that is the whole purpose for every religious school here

[kres24GT]

School choice is the answer to improving education, but half assed plans like Bushes only make it worse. get the federal gov't out of education.

[stefan segal]

The public school system is a government project to indoctrinate their version of history...they revise history all the time...just wait ten years after butch...you'll learn a history you wish you lived.

The government needs cannon fodder...learn-em young and have them for life.

Stefan

[stefan segal]

The voucher plan is to privatize their costs and slip their responsibility.

The money should be spent on a shake-up of the school management and especially the circulem. Vermont has schools (private) that teach everything imaginable...from rock climbing to metal work.

Taxpayers couldn't afford that level of freedom in the classrooms, but the concept of teaching children those things that they find interesting...too allow the dynamic of the class point the way, is affordable.

butch is doing the opposite of feeding intellectual curiosity...his rigid syllubus with dates of completion and depths of imersion kill all growth...like forcing tomatoes to grow square to better fit into boxes...why parents allow thier kids to be deformed in the most open period of their lives...when they can learn so much more than adults, is to me, child abuse.

AJ, Kres, and some others, so typify the problem with this country...they must be shown up for the sickness they are before common sense and humanity can be restored to this country.

Can you imagine the life their kids lead growing up in their "care"? Child abuse.

Stefan

[Mr. Blue]

....again shows the administrations plans to try to get rid of all unions.

The problem is that many unions have become an ugly representation of what a unions should be. Unions encourage poor performance by creating a system where it's impossible for incompetent people to be fired. This includes the teacher's union and my sister was a teacher, she saw the system in action, and she saw teachers that should have been fired for poor performance remain on the job year after year.

Unions, unfortunately, have created a class of mediocrity that's going to choke the American economy.

If we stopped believing that every parent has to do their childs homework so that they can make the "honor roll" and stop rewarding poor behaviour, then maybe we can get back to a school system without a political noose around its neck - heck maybe we can even get back to spanking kids like they sometimes need it - even in school

I agree with that completely!

We've unfortunately become a society that encourages excuses for poor performance. If a student fails it's every one's fault but the student himself...this creates an adult that will blame all his life's troubles on the system, the media, the government, or any other hobgoblin he can think up, but they will never examine the real problem at hand...themselves.

[kres24GT]

The voucher plan is to privatize their costs and slip their responsibility.

The money should be spent on a shake-up of the school management and especially the circulem. Vermont has schools (private) that teach everything imaginable...from rock climbing to metal work.

Taxpayers couldn't afford that level of freedom in the classrooms, but the concept of teaching children those things that they find interesting...too allow the dynamic of the class point the way, is affordable.

butch is doing the opposite of feeding intellectual curiosity...his rigid syllubus with dates of completion and depths of imersion kill all growth...like forcing tomatoes to grow square to better fit into boxes...why parents allow thier kids to be deformed in the most open period of their lives...when they can learn so much more than adults, is to me, child abuse.

AJ, Kres, and some others, so typify the problem with this country...they must be shown up for the sickness they are before common sense and humanity can be restored to this country.

Can you imagine the life their kids lead growing up in their "care"? Child abuse.

Stefan

My kids will not be educated by the government. I know better than to let the politicians (Bush and the rest) educate my children.

[exarmyranger]

:disbelief: Well all I can say is"Welcome to Nazi america":censored: The public school system is a government project to indoctrinate their version of history...they revise history all the time...just wait ten years after butch...you'll learn a history you wish you lived.

The government needs cannon fodder...learn-em young and have them for life.

StefanGIVE ME YOUR CHILDREN TILL THEY ARE SIXTEEN YEARS OLD... :help: AND THEY WILL BE MINE FOREVER..."Hitler" ex

[Tommy]

AJ the only reason your interested in this voucher plan is because you think it will return us to the dark days of religious brainwashing of the young

your wrong..... your children and millions others are being taught evolotion every day. religious schools are closing up every day!!!!

33 Churchs are closing this year in new york. every year Sunday mass seems just a little bit empty er

think about this... 10 years ago did you ever see people on TV speaking out against religion, today it almost seems common place

how many atheists or non believers did you know 15 years ago??
how many do you know today ???

studys shows that young couples are choosing to live together instead of getting married

religion is dying a slow death


Bush has 19 months left in office and will likely be replaced with a New Yorker. he didnt do much for your causes when he had the support of congress

[Linkster]

religion is dying a slow death



Thank Goodness - maybe now we can stop killing other human beings in the name of whichever god they choose :lmao2:

[Mr. Blue]

Thank Goodness - maybe now we can stop killing other human beings in the name of whichever god they choose :lmao2:

It'll never happen. Religions may crumble but they'll be replaced by something just as insidious. The majority of people are weak minded sheep that need to be lead, they need the belonging to a group to feel safe. Remove religion and they'll cling to something else.

Religion isn't really the root problem...it's man's inability to be an individual and feel comfortable with it.

[stefan segal]

Blue...you said a mouthfull there...All these clubs prove your contention....KKK, street gangs, cops, soldiers, polititians...all have that clubbiness in them.

If that is to be taken as a given, then why not, as a society promote more healthy clubs?

Boy scouts, and all these volunteer groups that help with technology and medical assistance through the poverty struck...and design more like the salvation army to help with our people?

There is such a crying need for after school activities for pre-delinquent children, faulty education and medical care...educational entertainment that peaks the interest of kids to find out more on their own...if booke and computers were more widespread.

Among the many problems with this, is that there is no employment requiring intelligence for these numbers of kids in the market place. What would they be preparing for? What jobs require entry levels with opportunity for advancement that is not already engineered by CAD, flow chartests, packagers, advertizement agencies, marketing, distribution, and retailers already in place. Truck drivers? truck loaders? shelf fillers? wharehouse stackers?...or burger flippers?

You say people are the problem...I think the real answer is to dismantle the corporations...desentralize...go back to mom and pop neighborhood stores.

Sounds insane...but when our dollar tanks...the cheap Chinese goods will cost too much for us to buy...and neighborhood eauntrepaneurs will spring up everywhere to fill the gap.

At that point, personal education and skills will once again become meaningful...and by that occurance, personal pride and self respect will be restored to our society as a whole.

We could heop that day come by keeping our money in the neighborhoods...by supporting small businesses and boycotting big corporations.

It is clear...or should be by now, that we (all those other than the heavily monied) are a target group. That we, as this target, are manipulated by those who supply our needs...food, fuel, clothing, technology, transportation, etc.

We have been removed from our source of supply, and by allowing this condition to become ever more solidified, by buying fruit from South America...the local growers go broke and repugs build on their land...as one example..there are many everywhere one looks...we don't change our own oil or spark plugs...you need to lift the motor or buy special wrenches just to reach them...then the black potted boxes...even the junk yards are as good as monoplies...we have been removed from takinging care of and maintaining ourselves...if I cut my own toenails, I jeprodize my warrenty.
What have we to be proud of? Where do we find a job that doesn't require wearing a rabbit hat on easter?

People are fucked up and a major dissappointment, but we would all need to win the jackpot to actually do anything to allow us to be better...to retain any self respect in today's market.

Education and hope/promise of a better system is my answer. Education to show people just what this wide open commercialism had done to us.

Just how big a price we paid for $7 dollar sneakers back when China was Japan.

The answer is to buy other than from big business...not buy american...because there are no american manufacturing to buy. Find out how american is a ford car...then you will know. Buy neighborhood. Stop buying crap that needs replacement three times a year because some CAD design is pared down to optimum conditions...and breaks when things like real life run less than optimum. Buy stuff that somewhere in the chain of it's manufacture there was a conscience involved.

Sorry for the rant...I got carted off:(

Stefan

[Linkster]

It'll never happen. Religions may crumble but they'll be replaced by something just as insidious. The majority of people are weak minded sheep that need to be lead, they need the belonging to a group to feel safe. Remove religion and they'll cling to something else.

Religion isn't really the root problem...it's man's inability to be an individual and feel comfortable with it.

Im often reminded by little facts that go through my head - comparing things like how many people the christian based churches have killed (which is way more by many times over than hitler ever killed) and little facts about mans "needs" - and always come back to that pyramid chart that someone made for managerial course a long time ago
At the bottom are the root needs like food, shelter etc - then it moves up to things like feeling appreciated and rewarded by their work - etc

And kinda in opposition to what you are saying - I think that the basis for man feeling that they arent comfortable with themselves is generated by the church (often from birth) and causes the inability to be an individual - so I would say that it is the root problem - since society as an average whole has decided the rules and "way of life" based on church rules - it would seem that if you removed that, you wold come up with new rules that respected the human live over all others?

[exarmyranger]

Thank Goodness - maybe now we can stop killing other human beings in the name of whichever god they choose :lmao2:
:oldman:I would'nt get too worked up about removing mankinds various deitys from the list of reasons we make up too justify man's apparent need to kill other men.Intelegent creatures like us will keep on killing one another,with or without reason(s)of that I hold no doubts! Due to circumstances I would rather not go into...I have never been inside of a High School,as a student.I attended the 8th grade for less than 6wks,never opened a textbook outside of the school,refused to do homework,or ask any teacher "may I go to the restroom"When asked why this was...I looked the V.P. in the eye and said,I know when I need to use the toilet,why would I ask someone!in the 7 yrs(1st-7th)I attended 4 different schools,in 3 different states,and never recieved less than an A in any quiz,test,or exam in any subject,only A,or A+,no A-B+...The admin.teacher's and myself came to a agree to disagree/standoff the 2nd wk.after a 3 day in-school suspension which I recieved for my disruptive behavior,and my refusing to let anyone whack my ass with a paddle.Unless rendered incapable of defending myself,or my(Ass)from an unwanted assualt.(The suspension I simply ignored opting to spend the 3 days at the beach).My stance was simple your people's job is to make the books that contain the material,data,and info I need to learn in order to move on to the next grade available,as well as a place where a person having trouble understanding part or all the material in a books text,can ask for help.If I can spend 1wk without being forced to listen to the teacher,life storys,and thier personal opinion of last nites episode of Payton Place,and sit in the back reading/studying whatever the class subject is.Give me the 6th wk exam's on the last,fifth day,if I don't ace every exam.I'll follow every rule,regulation,and requirement you want...No argument!They had to think I was bluffing,so they let me go for it...in percentiles my lowest score was 97%.A+.:woohoo: ex

[Caskey_91]

I just sent an email to my Congressman, excuse me Congresswoman demanding she support the presidents plan for school vouchers.
Rep.Carolyn.Maloney@mail.house.gov

all of you would be smart to do the same. Our childrens future is at stake
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Jan24/0,4670,StateofUnionEducation,00.html

If this catches on our children will have the opportunity to have the religious curriculum that they need to bring a moral balance to their lives

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Jan24/0,4670,StateofUnionEducation,00.html


The Education Department released a detailed plan Wednesday morning, the day after the president talked of improving the law during his State of the Union speech.

The plan would require states to develop standards and tests linked to what high school graduates should know and be able to do when they go to college or go to work.

"Students _ particularly in the later grades _ must be challenged to succeed, whether they are entering college or the highly competitive marketplace," Education Secretary Margaret Spellings said in a statement Wednesday.

The proposal also would make it easier for failing schools to be converted into charter schools, even if that means overriding state-imposed limits on charters. The proposal also would enable school administrators, in some circumstances, to ignore provisions of union contracts linked to staffing.

The five-year-old law seeks to ensure that all children can read and do math at grade level by 2014, which has placed unprecedented demands on schools. They have been required to step up testing, raise teacher quality and place more attention on the achievements of minority children.

Schools that fail to meet progress goals face consequences, such as having to spend money on tutoring or being forced to overhaul their staffs.

The law is set for renewal this year. The changes being proposed that the White House unveiled Tuesday include:

_Holding schools accountable for science scores, something not currently in the law.

_Requiring states to publish a report card showing how students do on state tests compared to a rigorous national test. That could put pressure on states to strengthen their assessments and standards.

_Making tutoring more widely available.

_Giving schools more flexibility in meeting annual progress goals, such as giving those that make significant strides but fall short of benchmarks credit for the progress they did make.

One change showcased by the White House a few hours before President Bush gave his State of the Union speech would give poor students private school vouchers, something that is unlikely to win approval from the Democratic-controlled Congress.

California Democratic Rep. George Miller, who chairs the House committee overseeing education, called the initiative a "failed idea" that would be rejected.

The administration tried but was unable to include a voucher program in the No Child Left Behind law when it was first passed by Congress five years ago.

White House officials say a private school voucher program makes sense for students in schools that are consistently failing to meet progress goals under the No Child Left Behind law.

"This is not for every kid in America," White House Deputy Chief of Staff Joel Kaplan said. "This is for those kids who are trapped in the absolute worst schools that just don't seem to be capable, or willing, to make the changes necessary to serve those students well."

Okay I totally disagree with this voucher program and the NCLBA. Both will be failed policy's.

Alrighty I disagree with this on many points the first one giving kids who are doing badly vouchers in the first place. Firstly many schools do have good teachers, like in my schools case (public) we have great teachers and the school hires well, THE STUDENTS ARE JUST TOO LAZY TO HAVE ANY INITIATIVE TO LEARN IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!! THEIR LAZY AND THEIR PARENTS DON'T PUSH THEM TO DO THEIR SCHOOL WORK. THEY'D RATHER WORK AT McDONALDS THE REST OF THEIR LIFE!!!

whew.

Many teachers if not all prepare students very well for the test so their funding doesn't get cut and they don't lose their job.

There will come a time where the blame needs to eventually be laid on the students and not the school.

Also most if not all the states publish a report card to begin with and have pretty high standards from my view of it.

I also disagree with the fact that States would be required to make tests linked to what you need to know for a job or College. Due to differing careers it would be impossible to form one test for all the masses. Plus I don't feel we should have to take a test to pass High School which this basically would be. The SAT, and ACT do just that for most kids.


Also AJ just one quick question:

It seems like you think that this plan will bring religion into public schools, how? It wouldn't be supported at all. And again I disagree with it. You can live a moral life without religion.

[Mr. Blue]

Im often reminded by little facts that go through my head - comparing things like how many people the christian based churches have killed (which is way more by many times over than hitler ever killed) and little facts about mans "needs" - and always come back to that pyramid chart that someone made for managerial course a long time ago
At the bottom are the root needs like food, shelter etc - then it moves up to things like feeling appreciated and rewarded by their work - etc

And kinda in opposition to what you are saying - I think that the basis for man feeling that they arent comfortable with themselves is generated by the church (often from birth) and causes the inability to be an individual - so I would say that it is the root problem - since society as an average whole has decided the rules and "way of life" based on church rules - it would seem that if you removed that, you wold come up with new rules that respected the human live over all others?

You limit your focus on religion because religion is what dominates most societies. I completely agree that religions are a tool to manipulate the masses, but in essence the masses are looking for that manipulation and will naturally congregate towards anything that gives them a structure they can comprehend easily.

I'll break it down by examples:

Churches / Religions: Brainwash the masses through the repetition of scripture, communal meetings where people repeat prayers, hymns, etc. Almost all religions teach that you have to spread the word, hate other religions (they candy coat it, but basically it says, hate the guy that worships another religion).

Nationalism / Jingoism: Brainwash the masses through repetition of pledges. The first thing I learned in school was the pledge of allegiance and had to say it every morning for 18 years. Always enforcing this idea that your country is better than others, that your system of government is superior, and at the end of the day Nationalism can be just as insidious as Religion. Just take a look at the Olympics...even though it's greatly improved, when I was growing up you rooted for the USA and you hoped the Russians would suck.

Sexism: From the day your born you get taught certain gender roles that are reinforced from the color of your nursery all the way through your life. Boys take shop class, girls take home economics.

Sports: You wear the colors of your team, you follow every game, you usually root for the team you've rooted for all your life (Go Jets) and you hiss an boo the other team...when your team wins you take some sort of pride in ownership of that win...when they lose you feel down, but still support the team...we'll get them next year.

Politics: I don't even think I have to do this one as politics has become one giant hate-fest of Republicans hating Democrats and vice versa...leading the country into a gridlock of partisan politics. Instead of finding solutions both parties find ways to make the other party look bad...way to govern.

Political Systems: Cold war, communism vs. democracy...

...And so goes the life of man. Remove religion and another institution will take it's place. I'm a happy heathen and agree that religion is a bunch of bunk.

The difference between you and I is pretty basic...you have faith in humans and I don't. People will always find a reason to hate, to kill, to go to war...they will always find some group to cling to...it's just the nature of the beast.

[stefan segal]

Blue jusy said in long hand what some old bastard told me when I was a kid...I've believed it all my life. To wit:

Everyone has five pounds of shit...it all depends on how it's arranged as to whether you can take them or not.

And it's this belief that allows me to seek answers rather than live under the cloud of cycnocism...which I couldn't get up in the morning if I gave way to the hopelessness of humanity.

I think, as Blue does in that people will cling to groups...especially groups with an easily understood message...like kill the abortionists because we believe in life.
I think eccology could grab people like religion does now. My point being in shifting the bulk of that five pounds of shit into some constructive area, a weakness could be changed into a good for the group.

I don't believe the tendency to join to be told what to do has to be a negative. Not all people are equipped to be leaders...I know I'm not...as I'm interested in solving problems...not rubbing shoulders with people...a leader has to take responsibility for people.

Anyway...back to the subject. I'm suggesting that instead of damning people for being sheep, herd them into positive efforts.

On 9/11...thousands of people were trying to help...offered their services...a veritible army of volunteers. Butch, of course couldn't have people near the site he couldn't control, so he told them to go fuck yourselves...go to the malls and spend money.

The will to pitch in is out there just waiting to be tapped...but all the gov. can say is "send money".

So much could be done with those willing to respond to a visable need...all it takes is a leader with a positive message.

Stefan

[Mr. Blue]

Anyway...back to the subject. I'm suggesting that instead of damning people for being sheep, herd them into positive efforts.

I'd love to see this happen, but I just have my doubts. You would need a leader that's truly altruistic in nature, that won't be corrupted by power, and that will keep the original intent of the good works, deeds, etc, of the group in mind.

Also the size of the organization plays a factor. Large organizations fall victim to corruption, abuse of power, etc. It's really problematic when you want to unify a large group of people into one institution because human nature tends to corrupt even the institutions that started with the best intentions.

I'd love to see it happen...I just don't think it will. :(

[stefan segal]

I'd love to see this happen, but I just have my doubts. You would need a leader that's truly altruistic in nature, that won't be corrupted by power, and that will keep the original intent of the good works, deeds, etc, of the group in mind.
================================================== ========
Blue... Sounds like you've just described:
Edwards, Richardson, Rendel gov. of PA.

Sorry to jump to the tight-assed conclusion...I'm a borderline case myself...after being dissappointed for my whole lifetime at the chintzyness of people's motivations:)

Anyway...whether I'm an asshole for hoping or not...I don't want to wake up eacn mornint in a shit-cloud.

Groups are made up with cells...patriotism, like politics, is local...nothing needs to become unwieldy.

You're probably not old enough to have experienced it, but I listened to FDR's fireside chats on the console radio/phonograph. Those nightly "chats" welded the country together while we were soundly getting our asses kicked and macgarther was dilligently killing our sons as fast as he could get his hands on them.
My point is, that an effective and charasmatic leader can do wonders in unifying the people.

If you've heard of Victory gardens, and tin can and bacon fat drives...to say nothing of rationing gasoline and rubber, you'd have an idea how this country can pull itself together into a great force in just months... one family at a time.

People are ready to put out the effort...to feel they are into something greater than satisfying their credit card demands...if only given the direction and motivation.

If the "Axis of Evil" (multinational corporative structure, polititical structure...which incorporates the banking system, and religious right,left and sidewize) could be appropriately identified each with their own particular crimes against our nation and humanity in general, then the direction and the attendant motivation would be abundantly clear to all those who still accept new information into their thinking.

Stefan

[Mr. Blue]

Blue... Sounds like you've just described:
Edwards, Richardson, Rendel gov. of PA.

Sorry to jump to the tight-assed conclusion...I'm a borderline case myself...after being dissappointed for my whole lifetime at the chintzyness of people's motivations:)

Well, I haven't completely given up hope and I've already donated to Richardson...as I think he's what the country needs. The problem is the "chintzyness" of people has jaded me a bit.

When I was younger I was a bright eyed optimist...I was working 3 jobs to help my family and still found time to do charity work. The charity work really opened my eyes to the human condition and it didn't leave a favorable impression. Whether it was from the religious nuts, to the charity operators, to the people that didn't strive for anything better than what they could get for free...it was just a uncomfortable lesson to learn.

[Bill]

I've already donated to Richardson...as I think he's what the country needs.

Sadly, this means he doesn't have much of a chance.

[kres24GT]

Yes, this country needs more big government, big business, anti-freedom politicians from the Republican and Democratic parties.

[Bill]

Yes, this country needs more big government, big business, anti-freedom politicians from the Republican and Democratic parties.

As there are no alternatives, not even on the farthest horizon, your point is moot.

[kres24GT]

As there are no alternatives, not even on the farthest horizon, your point is moot.



I vote for alternatives every election.

[Bill]

I vote for alternatives every election.

So do the communists and the greens - none of their candidates stand a chance either.

The last time there was an alternative on the horizon it was Perot, who I voted for.

Since then, as far as actual possibilities go, it's been a desert.

It will be a releif this next election, if it's some matchup like Hillary v Rudy - then I can happily hit the straight libertarian ticket again.

It's a wasted vote, but better to waste it.

[exarmyranger]

Sadly, this means he doesn't have much of a chance.
:disbelief: Yo Bill,a lady I've known for several years,was in town on Biznus,for a couple day's calls me,and we met for dinner.She is an intellegent,mature,women and I respect her opinion...The conversation turned into a discussion of a Political nature.We agreed on somethings,and rather than argue/debate,moved on to another topic when we disagreed.:talktothehand:Then I (fucked up) when she asked who I planned to vote for...(In the next Pres.election) I said,"Katie girl,I'm undecided,if the election was next tuesday... I think I'd pass on voting,for anyone"...Really,why is that? Because thier all either,corrupt,corruptable,or if honest,not close to being intelegent enough to notice they are being corrupted..."Oh,is that right!" :ugho: (Oh Shit) "What about Hillary?"(nice move dumbass!!!)Now bullshit like" if she wins the nomination,I'd go with her." may get me laid...the truth or close to it,will insure my not getting laid!!!She divulged one thing,and i'm sure it's the truth.(This womens home state is N.H.)"well she'll carry my state,every one I know is for her!"NOW that scares me.:scared1: ex

[stefan segal]

Besides being a power-freak lunatic, hillary is a piece of the same machine that got us into this mess in the first place. A vote for hillary is a repug vote...not becuase she couldn't make a race of it...but she's a repug at heart.

Kerry was the same story...there's a lot of sickness in washington...liberman, macain,guliani, gringrich, and the entire repug administration. One more who's deciding to run...a movie star congressman or senator...I can't remember which...but I saw him in action a sick neocon conservative.

What worries me is that the those like Edwards, Richardson, Obama, and the repug Hagel, won't be able to compete with enough fund raising to win.

I think it's unfair that the repugs own all the black ops hitmen...it really isn't a level playing field. The dems put up a solid winner like Welstone...and suddenly him and his whole family go up in smoke. Then like it's too much trouble to devise another accident...they take out the kennedy boy using the same tired small plane inexplicable "accident"...just because he mentioned running for office.

Then there's the old ploy of sending the leading dems letters laced with militarized anthrax...military designed and fabricated using our tax dollars...not a level field at all.

I wish we had a judicary system that would penalize repug murderers. I believe most civilized societies have laws prohibiting murder...but that may be just a rumor.

Stefan

[kres24GT]

So do the communists and the greens - none of their candidates stand a chance either.

The last time there was an alternative on the horizon it was Perot, who I voted for.

Since then, as far as actual possibilities go, it's been a desert.

It will be a releif this next election, if it's some matchup like Hillary v Rudy - then I can happily hit the straight libertarian ticket again.

It's a wasted vote, but better to waste it.


You should only vote if your vote will go for the winner? So if I live in Georgia, I should have either voted for Bush the past 2 elections or not voted at all?

[stefan segal]

Kres...you should know the game you're in when you're in it.

You obviously can't think past your glands...the non emotional response to your question is to see what's going on and why it's going on.

The answer to both is because the repugs have had too much uncheckable power and have salted every check and balance incorporated into our government with their own shills...the one's not so critical to their dynasty, they've cowed or financially destroyed.

Wouldn't the best response is to lie down with a strange bedfellow who coincidentally have a hardon for the administration and also have the opportunity to win...in other words...the dems?

Is it so difficult for you to figure that we have a two party electorate and that any vote not for dems, simply strengthens repugs...who own the voting machines, the judiciary, and the compilers of the vote and are gangster/murderers...so anything that will weaken them, must be the IMMEDIATE good...and more than just the "good"...it is the dire neccessity?

Think this over...I am not the opposition you must mindlessly wack back at...do your own thinking before you answer...if you can find a flaw or a spin in that above...point it out...that is what we're doing here.

Stefan

[kres24GT]

Kres...you should know the game you're in when you're in it.

You obviously can't think past your glands...the non emotional response to your question is to see what's going on and why it's going on.

The answer to both is because the repugs have had too much uncheckable power and have salted every check and balance incorporated into our government with their own shills...the one's not so critical to their dynasty, they've cowed or financially destroyed.

Wouldn't the best response is to lie down with a strange bedfellow who coincidentally have a hardon for the administration and also have the opportunity to win...in other words...the dems?

Is it so difficult for you to figure that we have a two party electorate and that any vote not for dems, simply strengthens repugs...who own the voting machines, the judiciary, and the compilers of the vote and are gangster/murderers...so anything that will weaken them, must be the IMMEDIATE good...and more than just the "good"...it is the dire neccessity?

Think this over...I am not the opposition you must mindlessly wack back at...do your own thinking before you answer...if you can find a flaw or a spin in that above...point it out...that is what we're doing here.

Stefan


Why replace crap with crap. There is no difference between reps and dems... if I don't like one, why would I vote for the other?

I go back to my Mexican Gardner analogy. I hire one Mexican gardener to mow my yard, he does a shitty job, so I replace him with another Mexican gardener, who also does a shitty job, so I replace him with the original shitty gardener. And I repeat on semi regular basis, actually expecting different results.

[stefan segal]

Kres...you sort of missed the whole point of my post...it had to do with doing what is best in the short run...with analysing the current situation and making the best use of your vote as a stop gap measure...rather than throwing it away on some third party to make a statement...it's too late to make statements by vote. You ignored thise whole issue to state the same rote message that was wrong-headed the first three times.

I asked you assess our current situation...I'll ask you again.

As far as your Mexican analogy goes...it's had to capture your point when you use Mexicans to illustrate a shitty job...if they did shitty jobs, then we wouldn't have an immigration problem.

It's precisely because they do such a good job and work so hard and long, that we hate to ship them out...it's businesses...big and small, that are profiting because Mexicans are doing such good cheap work.

The flip side is the crime some of them bring to our country...like Dillenger said when asked why he robs banks: "because that's where the money is..."

And for some Mexicans, the USA is where the money is..so they come to steal our wheelbarrows and fuck our dog on the way out...if you don't keep a close eye on your back yard.

Come on Kres...make an effort to apply yourself to the question.

Stefan

[kres24GT]

Kres...you sort of missed the whole point of my post...it had to do with doing what is best in the short run...with analysing the current situation and making the best use of your vote as a stop gap measure...rather than throwing it away on some third party to make a statement...it's too late to make statements by vote. You ignored thise whole issue to state the same rote message that was wrong-headed the first three times.

I asked you assess our current situation...I'll ask you again.

As far as your Mexican analogy goes...it's had to capture your point when you use Mexicans to illustrate a shitty job...if they did shitty jobs, then we wouldn't have an immigration problem.

It's precisely because they do such a good job and work so hard and long, that we hate to ship them out...it's businesses...big and small, that are profiting because Mexicans are doing such good cheap work.

The flip side is the crime some of them bring to our country...like Dillenger said when asked why he robs banks: "because that's where the money is..."

And for some Mexicans, the USA is where the money is..so they come to steal our wheelbarrows and fuck our dog on the way out...if you don't keep a close eye on your back yard.

Come on Kres...make an effort to apply yourself to the question.

Stefan


How many times can I say it.

Republican = Democrat

No difference. None. I don't want Democrats in office any more than I want Republicans out of office, or vice versa.


If you want to lie to yourself and think things will be different with Dems in control (this is already proven to not be the case since they took the Congress, same old shit), be my guest. If you think you are going to make me delude my self into believing that you are wasting your time. I vote straight up for the candidate who will enforce the constitution and limit the powers of the federal government, clearly a Republican or a Democrat would not be anywhere in my sights if this is my voting criteria.


The Mexican analogy had nothing to do with illegal immigration. You are really stretching here to justify voting Dem without coming across as a party sheep.

[stefan segal]

Kres...have a conversation with eat my lunch...as I give up on you....apparently language is lost in the black hole of your mind.

Stefan

[kres24GT]

Kres...have a conversation with eat my lunch...as I give up on you....apparently language is lost in the black hole of your mind.

Stefan


Clearly math is lost on you. I am not sure what part of Republican = Democrat you don't understand.


0 of our problems in this country are a Rep vs. Dem issue. They are all an issue of freedom vs. big government or the corruptness of politicians and inefficiencies of government.

[stefan segal]

Kres...this is my last effort with you.

Republican does NOT equal democrat TODAY...as repugs have for the last 6 years put laws, law-makers, judiciary, news outlets, and the supreme court in their pocket...it remains there TODAY.

You brought up math...You do the math and tell me...CAN A THIRD PARTY CANDIDATE WIN THE PRESIDENCY?

If your math skills indicate the NO answer...then tell me which of the two hated parties WILL elect a president...repug or dem.

I understand you are blind to certain facts...so since this is the last time I will respond on this issue, I will tell you some facts.

Of ALL the third parties...only dems will move from their party to add their vote to a third party.

Again...not to tac your math skills...if you take dem votes away for a candidate the can only loose...doesn't that leave the dems with less votes while the repugs retain all their sick fucks unchanged?

Third party platforms are people oriented issues...like ecology, energy self sufficiency, clean water, tree huggers, whale kissers, etc...all those things people with normal humanity and intelligence should and do care about.

If you've noticed...which I doubt, because your cup is already filled, I have not just described your typical repug...therefore repugs throw money at third parties to siphon off dems...repugs are more interested in money than quality of life issues...so they remain repug base vote...while doing what they can to errode the dems.

So to state repugs equal dems is not a true statement.

I will vote third party myself when dems have the stranglehold on government and are finished jailing all the repugs they can get their hands on.
and changing the laws back to their inherrant Constitutionality...taxing the rich, and mending international fences.


Stefan

[exarmyranger]

Why replace crap with crap. There is no difference between reps and dems... if I don't like one, why would I vote for the other?Hmmm,did'nt Stefan just answer that question? What is it that makes you so obviously... :confused:???

I go back to my Mexican Gardner analogy. I hire one Mexican gardener to mow my yard, he does a shitty job, so I replace him with another Mexican gardener, who also does a shitty job, so I replace him with the original shitty gardener. And I repeat on semi regular basis, actually expecting different results. kres.,to quote (My Hero) Bug's Bunny,Whats up Doc?munch,munch,:gossip: "No Foolin?" Is Daffy Duck using an alias,munch,smack
:pokefun:"Oh mother...What a mooroon"...Ok,heres the way it works in the"Real World"#1.Lets say 10 people apply for the job,you choose 3 ,for a second interveiw.The 1st guy is Mexican he has on a T-shirt (w/a 57 Chevy on the front)pants(By K-Mart)and well worn (Keds)sneaker's,and want's $20,000 for a 1yr. labor contract...You ask "how do you arrive at that figure?"Simple,$10,000 for matierial's,tools,and costs(delivery,repair,ect.fee's)and $10,000 for labor,and maitanence."Ok,(we'll get back to you)The next guy happens to be Black.he's wearing Knock-off muave T/B sweats,fake Rolex,and $300.00(retail)Rebox...He wants $30,000 per."How do you arrive at that figure?"The Mexican will do it for $20,000..."Simple $15,000 for top grade matierial's,tools with lifetime warranty's,and costs(Insurance,permits,and msc.fee's)and $15,000 for reliable experienced American Labor,and state certified maitanence".Ok (we'll get back to you)The third(last)guy is white,and has on a Dress Shirt (Arrow?),dark tie,blueish grey sport jacket,fresh pressed slacks,and Gussi(?) leather loafers.He wants $50,000 per."how can you justifie $50,000? I could hire both of the other guys for that."Simple we do it like this...1st we give the black guy $10,000,to let us use his name,so we get minority busn.status,that enables us to recieve,Govn.subsidised incentives,no intrest loans,discount's on matierials,tax credit's,ect",then we hire the mexican for $20,000 and split the left over $20,000 between us.(tax free)...Sold To the American!:thumbsup: ex

[kres24GT]

Kres...this is my last effort with you.

Republican does NOT equal democrat TODAY...as repugs have for the last 6 years put laws, law-makers, judiciary, news outlets, and the supreme court in their pocket...it remains there TODAY.

You brought up math...You do the math and tell me...CAN A THIRD PARTY CANDIDATE WIN THE PRESIDENCY?

If your math skills indicate the NO answer...then tell me which of the two hated parties WILL elect a president...repug or dem.

I understand you are blind to certain facts...so since this is the last time I will respond on this issue, I will tell you some facts.

Of ALL the third parties...only dems will move from their party to add their vote to a third party.

Again...not to tac your math skills...if you take dem votes away for a candidate the can only loose...doesn't that leave the dems with less votes while the repugs retain all their sick fucks unchanged?

Third party platforms are people oriented issues...like ecology, energy self sufficiency, clean water, tree huggers, whale kissers, etc...all those things people with normal humanity and intelligence should and do care about.

If you've noticed...which I doubt, because your cup is already filled, I have not just described your typical repug...therefore repugs throw money at third parties to siphon off dems...repugs are more interested in money than quality of life issues...so they remain repug base vote...while doing what they can to errode the dems.

So to state repugs equal dems is not a true statement.

I will vote third party myself when dems have the stranglehold on government and are finished jailing all the repugs they can get their hands on.
and changing the laws back to their inherrant Constitutionality...taxing the rich, and mending international fences.


Stefan


Please tell me the difference between the two.


Big government, anti freedom: Nope, both parties love big government and love legislating away freedoms.

Big business: Both parties love big business and squashing entrepreneurship, both are sold out to big business who funds their campaigns.

Corruptness: Both parties are ridiculously corrupt, selling out the American people to the highest bidder whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Immigration: Both parties want open borders, ignoring the dangers that come along with that policy.

I could go on and on. They are the same. I won't vote for them. Just because you give Republicans a clever name like repugs isn't going to change anyone's mind.

[Caskey_91]

Please tell me the difference between the two.


Big government, anti freedom: Nope, both parties love big government and love legislating away freedoms.

Big business: Both parties love big business and squashing entrepreneurship, both are sold out to big business who funds their campaigns.

Corruptness: Both parties are ridiculously corrupt, selling out the American people to the highest bidder whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Immigration: Both parties want open borders, ignoring the dangers that come along with that policy.

I could go on and on. They are the same. I won't vote for them. Just because you give Republicans a clever name like repugs isn't going to change anyone's mind.


This is what makes me sick about our government. The fact that we where built on ideals and now our country is run by idiots that only got office due to large support from business and a very uneducated America that belives whatever they see on TV.