How should economy be fixed?

[Moby]

OK, we're in the middle of what could be the worst economic crisis in the history of the world. Bush is leaving in a little over 2 months.


We've taken on $5 trillion in tax payer debt
Citizens have lost over $4 trillion in net worth
This is following the most massive tax cuts in our history
This year we will have the worst budget deficit in the history of the world


What should we do?


Can we keep throwing money at the problem?
Can we spend our way out of it being so far in debt already?
Can we just keep cutting taxes which means even higher budget deficits?
Should we just take out licks after having 8 years of spending like crazy and let economy collapse?

[kres24GT]

We have to get government out of it, take our lumps and learn that big government is too devastating to let them have so much control of the economy. The bigger government gets, the more band aids we put on it, the worse it is going to be when the bottom falls out.

[Dale escondido]

OK, we're in the middle of what could be the worst economic crisis in the history of the world. Bush is leaving in a little over 2 months.


We've taken on $5 trillion in tax payer debt
Citizens have lost over $4 trillion in net worth
This is following the most massive tax cuts in our history
This year we will have the worst budget deficit in the history of the world


What should we do?


Can we keep throwing money at the problem?
Can we spend our way out of it being so far in debt already?
Can we just keep cutting taxes which means even higher budget deficits?
Should we just take out licks after having 8 years of spending like crazy and let economy collapse?


Government cant run a business successfully without any competition.
If anyone thinks their going to fix this, have I got an investment for you.
All we hear is we got to get spending again.
People are in debt and realize its time to stop spending. Only gov want more of what got us here.

[kres24GT]

Government cant run a business successfully without any competition.
If anyone thinks their going to fix this, have I got an investment for you.
All we hear is we got to get spending again.
People are in debt and realize its time to stop spending. Only gov want more of what got us here.


I hope you are right, but I don't think so, people want to spend, government wants to spend, people want more government.

[Bill]

It doesn't matter wether you think government should get out of it or not.

That will NEVER happen. Ever. With the possible exception of a madmax style total collapse of all goverment worldwide, with an accompanying dieoff of about 5 billion.

America stopped building anything worth buying - and we lived off the national credit card for years - now the bills are due - and everybody acts like this is some big surprise.

This was always coming. It was as inevitable as a falling stone.

---

So, considering that we are in disaster capitalism mode, and there is no way in hell we are going to stop big government, what can be done?

I'd say a new deal style crash infrastructure program, combined with massive tax cuts for internal energy and infrastructure projects, and massive tax hikes for international "free trade" job-exporting and manufacturing exporting projects.

We need a new smart grid, combining electricity and ultra high bandwidth broadband and server infrastructure, in the Thomas Friedman model.

Combine that with a new free nationwide public access wireless net built in the old wasteful TV broadcast wavelengths. Super high quality telepresence internet EVERYWHERE.

Combined possibly with a redesign of the transport system, converting the shipping fleet to natural gas as Pickens suggests, and a new smart-tax on private automobiles, combined with a crash program to convert to a natural gas based train and public transport system.

Add to that a crash program of building a new nuclear generation system and a cleaner coal generation system.

And of course huge tax breaks and low interest loans to support renewable energy - as long as the technology is built in the US. That will encourage the renewable industry leaders in europe, japan, and china to build plants here.

[Dale escondido]

It doesn't matter wether you think government should get out of it or not.

That will NEVER happen. Ever. With the possible exception of a madmax style total collapse of all goverment worldwide, with an accompanying dieoff of about 5 billion.

America stopped building anything worth buying - and we lived off the national credit card for years - now the bills are due - and everybody acts like this is some big surprise.

This was always coming. It was as inevitable as a falling stone.

---

So, considering that we are in disaster capitalism mode, and there is no way in hell we are going to stop big government, what can be done?

I'd say a new deal style crash infrastructure program, combined with massive tax cuts for internal energy and infrastructure projects, and massive tax hikes for international "free trade" job-exporting and manufacturing exporting projects.

We need a new smart grid, combining electricity and ultra high bandwidth broadband and server infrastructure, in the Thomas Friedman model.

Combine that with a new free nationwide public access wireless net built in the old wasteful TV broadcast wavelengths. Super high quality telepresence internet EVERYWHERE.

Combined possibly with a redesign of the transport system, converting the shipping fleet to natural gas as Pickens suggests, and a new smart-tax on private automobiles, combined with a crash program to convert to a natural gas based train and public transport system.

Add to that a crash program of building a new nuclear generation system and a cleaner coal generation system.

And of course huge tax breaks and low interest loans to support renewable energy - as long as the technology is built in the US. That will encourage the renewable industry leaders in europe, japan, and china to build plants here.
There is no question half of us who post here could at least get us back on a sound footing as a start.
But government? Thats a stretch of the imagination.
They will spend until no one wants their dollars anymore , then they will scrap the dollar and roll the dice.
Its not hard to predict government, just think what the worst thing one could do,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[kres24GT]

It doesn't matter wether you think government should get out of it or not.

That will NEVER happen. Ever. With the possible exception of a madmax style total collapse of all goverment worldwide, with an accompanying dieoff of about 5 billion.

America stopped building anything worth buying - and we lived off the national credit card for years - now the bills are due - and everybody acts like this is some big surprise.

This was always coming. It was as inevitable as a falling stone.

---

So, considering that we are in disaster capitalism mode, and there is no way in hell we are going to stop big government, what can be done?

I'd say a new deal style crash infrastructure program, combined with massive tax cuts for internal energy and infrastructure projects, and massive tax hikes for international "free trade" job-exporting and manufacturing exporting projects.

We need a new smart grid, combining electricity and ultra high bandwidth broadband and server infrastructure, in the Thomas Friedman model.

Combine that with a new free nationwide public access wireless net built in the old wasteful TV broadcast wavelengths. Super high quality telepresence internet EVERYWHERE.

Combined possibly with a redesign of the transport system, converting the shipping fleet to natural gas as Pickens suggests, and a new smart-tax on private automobiles, combined with a crash program to convert to a natural gas based train and public transport system.

Add to that a crash program of building a new nuclear generation system and a cleaner coal generation system.

And of course huge tax breaks and low interest loans to support renewable energy - as long as the technology is built in the US. That will encourage the renewable industry leaders in europe, japan, and china to build plants here.


More government will only increase our rate of descent. I agree less government will never happen, but the bigger government gets, the quicker we descend into anarchy when the government collapses. Big government always benefits the wealthy and destroys the middle class, America cannot survive without a middle class.

[Independent Harry]

Right now, our only chance is to innovate. We need to completely revamp our infrastructure. Internet and communications. Get ourselves into a mode of energy independence. Using bio fuels that we create here in the states. and a combination of nuclear, wind, tidal, sun and geothermal energy. Grow our own food again, I only eat organic food that is grown here in the states. I mean, we need more salmonilla infected letuce from China, like we need holes in the head.

We also should move to an economy that is backed by something other than debt, and the dollars already in the system. Inflation has been killing us the last 8 years. It does the middle and lower classes no good whatsoever. I don't care if the money is tied to the over value of the stock market. But something should be there as a stop gap so that companies and governments will be dead set against devaluing the dollar so much.

[disrupter]

Transparency: Require that all derivative transactions be recorded in some central database.

Take all that bank welfare of Paulson's back & inject into the retail credit market, where it should have gone in the first place.

I suppose they could try to do something about the mortgage mess, but that is really complicated & incredibly big. Mostly time is what will cure that.
But what they absolutely must do is regulate all third party mortgage originators.

Derivatives took what would have been a survivable housing collapse & amplified it to unimaginable shockwaves.
Not only that, but derivatives probably helped to inflate the housing bubble even higher, but there were other factors involved in that as well.

[Dale escondido]

Right now, our only chance is to innovate. We need to completely revamp our infrastructure. Internet and communications. Get ourselves into a mode of energy independence. Using bio fuels that we create here in the states. and a combination of nuclear, wind, tidal, sun and geothermal energy. Grow our own food again, I only eat organic food that is grown here in the states. I mean, we need more salmonilla infected letuce from China, like we need holes in the head.

We also should move to an economy that is backed by something other than debt, and the dollars already in the system. Inflation has been killing us the last 8 years. It does the middle and lower classes no good whatsoever. I don't care if the money is tied to the over value of the stock market. But something should be there as a stop gap so that companies and governments will be dead set against devaluing the dollar so much.

You isolationist. Dont you realize the world would collapse without us bleeding our wealth into it?
Although energy independence sounds reasonable.
We printed another two trillion in the last few weeks, and they are backed by "in god we trust" just like gold:thumbsup:

[Mr. Blue]

Unfortunately there’s no easy solution to the problem. Here’s generally my thoughts on it, the government is being run just as poorly as all the companies the entities they’re bailing out at the moment. Throwing money on the problem will just not help. Here’s the steps that should be taken but won’t be taken.

• A Balanced Budget – there’s no way we can continue on without balancing the budget, we have to live within our means, and we can’t spend what we don’t have. With that we should start paying down the national debt with the surplus.

• Removing every government program that isn’t working, cut it completely, cut pork barrel spending, and try to reduce the size of government as much as possible.

• No more bailouts. If these big companies know there’s no safety net, they’ll start acting a little more responsibly or they’ll fail and another will take their place.

• Creating jobs in America, investing in infrastructure, energy independence put a heavy penalty on companies that outsource jobs, a tax break for companies that create jobs. There should be a serious push to make America an attractive place for all businesses to want to set up here rather than ship it elsewhere.

Also I'm tired of the argument that we need migrant workers to fill jobs. It's a cop out. I've worked blue collar jobs when times were tough, there's nothing wrong with getting your hands dirty and working. Pack of crybabies nowadays where if you don't get your dream job you refuse to work.

• Dramatically change our foreign policy. I’m sorry, but this policeman to the world shit is costly and it’s time we focus on building schools, hospitals, etc, here instead of nation building elsewhere.

• Finally, personal responsibility. Too many people blame the government for every single problem they have and they expect the government to solve it for them. Personal responsibility is something that we’ve lost in America…sometimes you have to own up and solve your own problems and don’t expect anyone to help you.

[Dale escondido]

Unfortunately there’s no easy solution to the problem. Here’s generally my thoughts on it, the government is being run just as poorly as all the companies the entities they’re bailing out at the moment. Throwing money on the problem will just not help. Here’s the steps that should be taken but won’t be taken.

• A Balanced Budget – there’s no way we can continue on without balancing the budget, we have to live within our means, and we can’t spend what we don’t have. With that we should start paying down the national debt with the surplus.

• Removing every government program that isn’t working, cut it completely, cut pork barrel spending, and try to reduce the size of government as much as possible.

• No more bailouts. If these big companies know there’s no safety net, they’ll start acting a little more responsibly or they’ll fail and another will take their place.

• Creating jobs in America, investing in infrastructure, energy independence put a heavy penalty on companies that outsource jobs, a tax break for companies that create jobs. There should be a serious push to make America an attractive place for all businesses to want to set up here rather than ship it elsewhere.

Also I'm tired of the argument that we need migrant workers to fill jobs. It's a cop out. I've worked blue collar jobs when times were tough, there's nothing wrong with getting your hands dirty and working. Pack of crybabies nowadays where if you don't get your dream job you refuse to work.

• Dramatically change our foreign policy. I’m sorry, but this policeman to the world shit is costly and it’s time we focus on building schools, hospitals, etc, here instead of nation building elsewhere.

• Finally, personal responsibility. Too many people blame the government for every single problem they have and they expect the government to solve it for them. Personal responsibility is something that we’ve lost in America…sometimes you have to own up and solve your own problems and don’t expect anyone to help you.


Way too rational, never happen.
We will spend every cent trying to put the old house of cards back up.
Once we (the little people) start borrowing and spending the money we dont have the economyt will be fixed.
And if they cant fix it , the blame will go back and forth so much we will have trouble identifying any source.

[doctordog]

Ride it out, the economy isn't as bad as all the worried people claim it be. It can be worked through just like it was in 94, 81, and the early seventies. We have become a society the believes everything they hear on TV and radio to the point in CNN and MSNBC said the govenrment was testing a new nerve gas on the country half the people on this board would commit suicide before they discovered the truth.

[Dale escondido]

Ride it out, the economy isn't as bad as all the worried people claim it be. It can be worked through just like it was in 94, 81, and the early seventies. We have become a society the believes everything they hear on TV and radio to the point in CNN and MSNBC said the govenrment was testing a new nerve gas on the country half the people on this board would commit suicide before they discovered the truth.

You are obviously not in business.
I have seen many recessions.
This has been coming for a long time. Dont need the media to tell us what we see. This is a debtor nation with a debtor populous. The bills have come due.
Unless we can borrow more?

[Independent Harry]

Ride it out, the economy isn't as bad as all the worried people claim it be. It can be worked through just like it was in 94, 81, and the early seventies. We have become a society the believes everything they hear on TV and radio to the point in CNN and MSNBC said the govenrment was testing a new nerve gas on the country half the people on this board would commit suicide before they discovered the truth.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

understand how our money system works before you think you have a clue about what you are saying...

[Moby]

Ride it out, the economy isn't as bad as all the worried people claim it be. It can be worked through just like it was in 94, 81, and the early seventies. We have become a society the believes everything they hear on TV and radio to the point in CNN and MSNBC said the govenrment was testing a new nerve gas on the country half the people on this board would commit suicide before they discovered the truth.
The media has been trying to tell us that the economy was good and that the stock market and housing was going to be in great shape at the end of 2008. It was the sheep that kept listening to Fox News. It was the sheep that kept supporting the failed policies. It is the sheep that wanted more of the same.

[nipoleon]

Government serves a purpose.
The purpose of government is to serve the best interests of the country, the people, and the land.

That does not mean to suck up to the rich and the corporations.

Anyone who lives in this country needs to shoulder their fair responsibility for the privilege and opportunity they get from living here.
This is our country and our home. We all live here and it belongs to all of us.
Anyone who lives here needs to treat their fellow citizens as their own brothers. No one gets special favors or treatment over anyone else.

If we can adopt that attitude, our economic problems will solve themselves.

[Mr, gone]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

Harry,

Thank you for the link of this brilliant observation not only of the worlds economic system - but also of the icredible dysfunction in our humanity.

I have always nurtured fragments of this knowledge within myself. Though not until now has this puzzle been presented with such utter clrarity.

If people truly want to improve thier understanding and subsequent quality of life, this video will be an epiphany.

[Independent Harry]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

Harry,

Thank you for the link of this brilliant observation not only of the worlds economic system - but also of the icredible dysfunction in our humanity.

I have always nurtured fragments of this knowledge within myself. Though not until now has this puzzle been presented with such utter clrarity.

If people truly want to improve thier understanding and subsequent quality of life, this video will be an epiphany.

Yeah I was pretty amazed the first time I saw it too. It's really quite interesting how banks are putting nothing up for our loans. And we have to pay them back money they created...