All Planes Grounded in London

[urb]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4778575.stm

According the UK television stations, approximately 20 planes were going to be flown towards the USA containing liquid explosives.

Not sure if they intended mid Atlantic explosions or maybe they were headed for targets in the US.

Reports say that MI5 foiled the plot and have arrested a number of British muslims.

[Tommy]

these damn Arabs
always messing with the airplanes

CNN is saying they were planing to blow em up over the ocean

they are also saying that the bombs would be made out of everyday liquids
that you could buy anywhere

if they can make bombs out of everyday stuff

they could blow up a lot of stuff besides airplanes

[urb]

Without me wearing too much of a tin foil hat on this one :D
I think we are in for a bit of large scale violence in the middle east this August.

A lot of people are commenting on the date of the 22nd of August which is mentioned in the Koran.

The prophet Mohammad was said to fly on a winged horse over to where Israel is now. I don't fully understand all of it, but the basic fear is that if someone was thinking of wiping Israel off the map... this would be the date an extreme Muslim would pick.

In a nutshell, a nuclear bomb on Israel 22nd August. :(

[Moby]

I think anything is possible now. I have always felt that the worst thing that could happen in The Middle East was the removal of Saddam's army without some sort of replacement.

We may not like to admit it but when he was in power Iran was much quieter and no one dared talk about developing WMDs.

They could be plotting something big or they could just be increasing oil prices and trying to keep Dubya in power since it's so good for profits.

[docholly]

it's also election time.. guess the defeat of Liberman just upped the time frame.

lets be scared and stay the course. :scared1:

I mean really who couldn't see something like this coming. There'll be another tape of Osama threatening us. I mean really if we can make dinosaurs from chicken bones.. We all know what can be done with a little fast action photo shop anime. :talktothehand:

[Moby]

Bill from the all spin zone is talking about how America now has to move to the right because this is proof that only Dubya can protect us.

Other networks were interviewing Brits that were saying the terrorists have known about these chemical compounds since 1995.

This makes as much sense as Al Qaeda terrorists getting plans to an elementary school in PA and taking them to the war zone filled with US troop in Iraq to plot the next attack.

[Bill]

I'm still trying to figure out what the explosive is that they are talking about.

I doubt you could make acetone peroxide in an airplane sink. It's usually made in an ice bath, and the process takes a bit of time.

I wonder if they figured out some other way to make it fast - or if they were planning to use some other compound.

But, nothing I can think of offhand would work that well.

There are commercial liquid explosives that you could hide in a liquids bottle.

[urb]

Maybe they had some Astrolite?

They are saying this morning that they found airline tickets for the 16th August in the UK houses of these Muslims.

[Moby]

They are saying this morning that they found airline tickets for the 16th August in the UK houses of these Muslims.
That makes me nervous since my girls are flying home through London around that time.

We all knew that they would start playing the terror card just like they have before with obvious false alarms to draw attention away from ineffective policy. Even so, when it's my wife and child on a plane I am concerned since maybe this time it's real.

According to some Brit they were interviewing lat night the terrorists have known how to make these explosives since 1995 and anyone could find the chemical compounds needed by doing a search on the Internet. Of course having an official making such unprofessional statements eases my concern a bit I'm still scared for my girls.

[Bill]

After reading a bit more about it, I tend to think they were planning on using plain old nitroglycerin, dyed to match the color of a sports drink, in a handmade two compartment gatorade bottle.

Not exactly household chemicals, but not hard to do.

Basically the same thing Yousef planned to do, but with a larger quantity of explosive.

It's interesting to note that it was police work that stopped this plan. (however real it turns out to have been - I'm still skeptical until I see evidence that an actual explosive was being prepared)

One of the truly effective methods against guerilla warfare is effective policing and detective work.

[Bill]

They keep talking about liquid peroxide explosives, but that still doesn't make a lot of sense to me...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/11/world/europe/11liquid.html

(sorry about the New York Communist Times link, it was one of the few that had this type of discussion in it.)

"TATP itself is a white powder made up of crystals that form when acetone and hydrogen peroxide are mixed together, usually with a catalyst added to speed the chemical reactions. But there is no need to wait for the crystals. Acetone and peroxide is “an exceedingly reactive mixture” that can be easily detonated by an electrical spark, said Neal Langerman, president of Advanced Chemical Safety, a consulting company in San Diego.

Acetone is easy to obtain, hydrogen peroxide somewhat harder. The hydrogen peroxide solution sold in pharmacies is too dilute, only 3 percent, to be used in an explosive. Stronger hydrogen peroxide of 30 percent concentration can be ordered from chemical supply companies, but concentrations strong enough to generate a powerful explosion, about 70 percent, are not readily available, Dr. Langerman said.

But acetone mixed with a 30 percent peroxide solution could still set off a fire that might burn through the aluminum skin of an airliner and cause it to crash, Dr. Langerman said.

“All of them are highly energetic,” he said of the various chemical combinations. “It doesn’t take much to punch a hole in the side of a plane, and if you punch a hole in the side of a plane, the plane comes down.” "

But, frankly, their chemistry is a bit shaky - if you mix hydrogen peroxide at that concentration with acetone, the reaction is going to be nasty and intense and freaky, it will catch fire, yes, but would it make an explosive?

It's not impossible, I guess. It's an interesting idea, anyway. I'll bet explosives experts all over the world are tinkering with this stuff today, trying to make a quick binary liquid bomb.

But the British guys seem to be talking about something more believeable - the two compartment bottle thing.

[Bill]

The more I read about this the shakier it seems to me.

I suspect this is going to turn out to be more a media event* than a real terror attack. There are certain technical details which just aren't making sense.

*Like those poor bastards who were arrested for buying 80 walmart phones, because it seemed suspicious to some walmart clerk.

It would be fascinating if it was a real attack plan, tho. I gather the UK police have to charge these guys very soon, that will be interesting.

[Moby]

The more I read about this the shakier it seems to me.
You seem far more knowledgable about the chemical asspects of this thing so I really enjoy reading your technical comments on this issue.

I think all the terror alerts have been media events to scare the population into thinking these guys are protecting us.

[Bill]

Yes, the chemistry of this stuff is fascinating.

I somewhat misstated what I was trying to say about the hydrogen peroxide needed to make the acetone peroxide explosive - you can use ordianry drugstore variety 3% hydrogen peroxide to make acetone peroxide explosive, but you have to use much more of it - lets say about a gallon or two to make a bombs worth of explosive. And the reaction with the less concentrated version takes longer, 24 hours or more - so, not much use to make an explosive while you are actually flying in the plane.

I thought it was funny that CBS showed the well known reaction that happens between pool chlorination chemicals and brake fluid as an example of "the terrorists explosive" - more fake news from our fine mainstream media.

There are a few other quick liquid explosives that could be made, as well as a few 'slurry' explosives, a mix of a liquid and either carbon powder or aluminum powder. But all those compounds will outgas large amounts of nitrogen ( the chemical signature of most explosives ) and the last time I took my daughter to an airport, earlier this summer, I noticed that the screener rubbed the bags with a nitrogen detection strip, which would definitely react to the presence of nitric acids or nitromethane in the bags, unless they were EXTREMELY carefully packaged and handled.

But, the two compartment bottle, mentioned by the british, just might, just barely might, defeat such a test, if it were very carefully and cleverly done.

We should be hearing about the official charges today or tomorrow, if they follow UK law. Of course, here in the US, those guys would just be dissappeared to our secret prisons, and it would take years before they would be charged or any more news would be released.

[Bill]

Ahhh, a correction, I never said 3% hydrogen peroxide wouldn't work, it was the NYT writer that said that, and when I reread it I thought I'd written that.

Good to know I didn't, because the truth is a lot of terrorists do use ordinary 3%.

But the NYT writer is correct, the 3% wouldn't work on a plane.

[Bill]

Here's an article I found that says a few good things about this topic, altho the guy also makes some potentially big errors - for instance, he talks about using sulfuric acid in the process, and he seems to think the sulphuric acid is an integral part of the oxygenation - it's not, it functions as a catalyst, and any strong inorganic acid will do the same thing, in fact, the current acid of choice is ordinary hydrochloric acid, available in any hardware store.

But, he's right, trying to make this stuff in an airplane bathroom just doesn't sound possible - unless, of course, the terrorists have discovered some method that the rest of the world doesn't know about, which is possible, but not very likely.

He mentions the other possibility that has been being discussed around the net - a binary cyanide bomb. That would not knock a plane out of the sky, but would kill a lot of people on the plane. We know that al qaeda has invented a practical cyanide bomb.

http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200608/msg00087.html

[Kinky Jones]

He mentions the other possibility that has been being discussed around the net - a binary cyanide bomb. That would not knock a plane out of the sky, but would kill a lot of people on the plane. We know that al qaeda has invented a practical cyanide bomb.

they will just make the cockpit doors gas proof if they arent already, the passengers are expendable casualties of war if something happens... before this "imminent threat" came about you were once again allowed to carry boxcutters, scissors, and small knives onto planes becasue the cockpit doors were secure and it wasn't cost effective to screen for them, the passengers weren't protected anymore than in the past

[RawAlex]

Bill, that guy's post is interesting, and he seems fairly well informed, but he misses two very significant points to this whole "plot".

First off, they were hitting planes flying over the Atlantic Ocean. Any plane on that type of route is pretty much in a vunerable position for about 3 - 4 hours, with no potential for an emergency landing and little or no hope of rescue for passengers even with a very, very soft water landing (not likely).

The "bombs" don't have to go boom to cause a problem in this sort of situation. Sit on board for about 1.5 hours into the flight. You have 3 people on each plane. On cue, they each hit a washroom, and mix together two batches each of a very noxious substance. There are plenty of things the could be made with two or three common substances combined. Leave one in the bathroom OPEN, and move quickly back to your seats and expose the other one at your seat... potentially just spilling it on the floor will do.

With 3 people times 2 sources each, it is likely this substance would travel through the ventilation to all corners of the plane making VERY rapid progress, including into the flight cabin.

If the substance is noxious enough to cause blackouts, you could end up with a plane flying itself on autopilot until it runs out of fuel.

Things really do not have to go boom to be deadly.

[Bill]

It seems that some of the mainstream media people are starting to learn enough about acetone peroxide to get suspicious about the official story also.

Here's a good article, that only makes a few mistakes, about the problems involved in making acetone peroxide in a plane bathroom.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/

I don't think the Register is a highly respected paper, altho i could be wrong about that.

-------------------
"Now for the fun part. Take your hydrogen peroxide, acetone, and sulfuric acid, measure them very carefully, and put them into drinks bottles for convenient smuggling onto a plane. It's all right to mix the peroxide and acetone in one container, so long as it remains cool. Don't forget to bring several frozen gel-packs (preferably in a Styrofoam chiller deceptively marked "perishable foods"), a thermometer, a large beaker, a stirring rod, and a medicine dropper. You're going to need them.

It's best to fly first class and order Champagne. The bucket full of ice water, which the airline ought to supply, might possibly be adequate - especially if you have those cold gel-packs handy to supplement the ice, and the Styrofoam chiller handy for insulation - to get you through the cookery without starting a fire in the lavvie.

Easy does it
Once the plane is over the ocean, very discreetly bring all of your gear into the toilet. You might need to make several trips to avoid drawing attention. Once your kit is in place, put a beaker containing the peroxide / acetone mixture into the ice water bath (Champagne bucket), and start adding the acid, drop by drop, while stirring constantly. Watch the reaction temperature carefully. The mixture will heat, and if it gets too hot, you'll end up with a weak explosive. In fact, if it gets really hot, you'll get a premature explosion possibly sufficient to kill you, but probably no one else.

After a few hours - assuming, by some miracle, that the fumes haven't overcome you or alerted passengers or the flight crew to your activities - you'll have a quantity of TATP with which to carry out your mission. Now all you need to do is dry it for an hour or two.

The genius of this scheme is that TATP is relatively easy to detonate. But you must make enough of it to crash the plane, and you must make it with care to assure potency. One needs quality stuff to commit "mass murder on an unimaginable scale," as Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Stephenson put it. While it's true that a slapdash concoction will explode, it's unlikely to do more than blow out a few windows. At best, an infidel or two might be killed by the blast, and one or two others by flying debris as the cabin suddenly depressurizes, but that's about all you're likely to manage under the most favorable conditions possible."
-----------------

I tried to find anybody, anywhere that said authoritatively that A.P. was likley to explode _while you were making it_ if you made it wrong. But, that doesn't seem to be the case. AP explodes when it's dry, it's relatively safe when it's wet, you keep it wet with acetone or water to keep it safe.

The danger when you are making it is that it will get too hot, and foam up, spilling acetone peroxide and the nasty reagents everywhere - and it has to be cleaned up before it dries, because once it dries, it will explode from a spark or a hard tap.

[Bill]

Well, the mainstream press has finally managed to buy a clue; I watched a CBS report last night that admitted that it would be impossible to make acetone peroxide in a plane bathroom, and that maybe the "terrorists" couldn't have done what they were being accused of plotting to do.

I think this was a fake arrest - a bunch of kids dreaming and idly bullshitting on IMs about how they'd like to do something like blow up some planes, but they had no plans, they had no explosives, they had no mission - they just happened to be stupid enough to talk about what they'd like to do in emails on online. And then some of them made the huge mistake of buying airplane tickets (supposedly - I have yet to see real eveidence reported that they had bought airplane tickets.)

If they had found actual explosives, it would be more plausible.

They said something about finding "detonators" - but that could mean almost anything. In any given house I could find a half dozen things that I could claim were 'detonators'.

Acetone peroxide is often used to make actual improvised detonators, but if they had found that type of detonator, I would think that would have been big big news.

The 'suitcase fillled with bomb making supplies found in the woods a mile away from the terrorists apartment' story seems to have been replaced with the claim that they found 'several (empty) bottles of hydrogen peroxide'.

[Moby]

I get the impression that both Dubya and Blair have been under a great deal of pressure and in turn have put law enforcement under the hammer. Basically demanding that they come up with some arrests.

Look at the idiots in Florida. Do they look like dangerous master minds to you?

Here again, they probably had some guy on the inside supplying information and after 18 months or so just said "Screw IT!", we have to go in, our boss told us to make some arrests even if we're not comfortable with the evidence.

I don't think it's a big conspiracy or any thing like that. I think it's just some boss putting a lot of pressure on underlings to save the big boss butt. The underlings do as told to save their own asses and keeps going. That's just how any chain of command works.

[Bill]

I note that this story, of the plot to blow up airliners with liquid explosive, has disappeared from the news, possibly because people were realizing just how flimsy the police story is...

Here's a british explosives expert saying that the idea of assembling liquid explosives on board a plane is nonsense.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Sources_August_Terror_Plot_Fiction_Underscoring_09 18.html

British Army expert casts doubt on 'liquid explosives' threat

Lieutenant-Colonel (ret.) Nigel Wylde, a former senior British Army Intelligence Officer, has suggested that the police and government story about the "terror plot" revealed on 10th August was part of a "pattern of lies and deceit."

British and American government officials have described the operation which resulting in the arrest of 24 mostly British Muslim suspects, as a resounding success. Thirteen of the suspects have been charged, and two released without charges.

According to security sources, the terror suspects were planning to board up to ten civilian airliners and detonate highly volatile liquid explosives on the planes in a spectacular terrorist operation. The liquid explosives -- either TATP (Triacetone Triperoxide), DADP (diacetone diperoxide) or the less sensitive HMTD (hexamethylene triperoxide diamine) -- were reportedly to be made on board the planes by mixing sports drinks with a peroxide-based household gel and then be detonated using an MP3 player or mobile phone.

But Lt. Col. Wylde, who was awarded the Queen's Gallantry Medal for his command of the Belfast Explosive Ordnance Disposal Unit in 1974, described this scenario as a "fiction." Creating liquid explosives is a "highly dangerous and sophisticated task," he states, one that requires not only significant chemical expertise but also appropriate equipment.

[Bill]

Hmmm - this part, however, is not true:

Lt. Col. Wylde also raised questions about the criminal investigation into the 7th July terrorist attacks in London last year. He noted that police and government sources have maintained "total silence" about the detonation devices used in the bombs on the London Underground and the bus at Tavistock Square. "Whatever the nature of the primary explosive materials, even if it was home-made TATP, the detonator that must be used to trigger an explosion is an extremely dangerous device to make, requiring a high level of expertise that cannot be simply self-taught or picked-up over the internet," Wylde stated.

Making a tatp detonator which would set off a charge is not that difficult. Dangerous, but not difficult, and once made such a device could be concealed easily and carried safely enough that it would be very practical.

[Bill Cosby]

I note that this story, of the plot to blow up airliners with liquid explosive, has disappeared from the news, possibly because people were realizing just how flimsy the police story is...

Here's a british explosives expert saying that the idea of assembling liquid explosives on board a plane is nonsense.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Sources_August_Terror_Plot_Fiction_Underscoring_09 18.html

British Army expert casts doubt on 'liquid explosives' threat

Lieutenant-Colonel (ret.) Nigel Wylde, a former senior British Army Intelligence Officer, has suggested that the police and government story about the "terror plot" revealed on 10th August was part of a "pattern of lies and deceit."

British and American government officials have described the operation which resulting in the arrest of 24 mostly British Muslim suspects, as a resounding success. Thirteen of the suspects have been charged, and two released without charges.

According to security sources, the terror suspects were planning to board up to ten civilian airliners and detonate highly volatile liquid explosives on the planes in a spectacular terrorist operation. The liquid explosives -- either TATP (Triacetone Triperoxide), DADP (diacetone diperoxide) or the less sensitive HMTD (hexamethylene triperoxide diamine) -- were reportedly to be made on board the planes by mixing sports drinks with a peroxide-based household gel and then be detonated using an MP3 player or mobile phone.

But Lt. Col. Wylde, who was awarded the Queen's Gallantry Medal for his command of the Belfast Explosive Ordnance Disposal Unit in 1974, described this scenario as a "fiction." Creating liquid explosives is a "highly dangerous and sophisticated task," he states, one that requires not only significant chemical expertise but also appropriate equipment.


I wonder if this is the story were bush the lesser saved the world thanks to torture??

Oh my bad, he believed he did.............. He also believed it was Armageddon to.....:o

[2T]

I've been wondering about that myself, Bill. I had seen remarks that the waterboarding NEVER gave them any actionable intel

[Bill Cosby]

In order to justify his uncivilized brutality he is claiming "it did some good., I believe"......

This is the only thing I can guess that he is claiming..........

I hope his book is the biggest flop by any president ever........