Peak oil and ethanol post at BoingBoing - worth reading

[Bill]

One of my favorite tekky culture blogs, boing boing, had a great post today, about the growing peak oil movement and the fact that more and more bigtime investors are planning for a future of very expensive oil, and the "Corn for Oil" problem, how the ethanol movement has caused the price of tortillas in latin america to double.

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/02/07/no_corn_for_oil_the_.html

There are some interesting comments that underscore how complex the corn issue is - who knows if the ethanol stuff is actually what's causing the price of corn in mexico to increase.

But, it's an interesting post anyway.

One of the first links in the post is to this article in Bloomberg about how investment planning companies are starting to take peak oil much more seriously.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=arur.i7moHMs

[exarmyranger]

The corn used for the production of ethanol is feed corn,and as anyone from the rural areas of most midwestern states could tell you.It is only fit to feed the hogs/cattle.In order to make it palletable,you need to add sugar to a fermenting mash of kernals,and water,and distill.So ethanol is not a threat to the tortillia industry.Corn oil is used in hundreds of proccessed foods,but should'nt become any threat to companys who relie upon it,in price or availibility.Genetically altered strains designed for convertion to ethanol,will be nessesary,minimal fertilization,and the prevention of cross pollenation.would be the first thing's needed for large scale plant production.imo...ex

[Bill]

Yeah, well, the price rise of tortillas in latin america is obviously a market thing, based on the perception and fear that the era of cheap food corn is coming to an end, and that america will burn it's corn rather than sell it cheaply to nearby countries.

It's not possible that suddenly so much more ethanol is being produced that it's using up the excess corn and driving up prices.

So I guess the latinos are suffering from corn middlemen taking advantage of the fear. I wonder who's making money off of this - is it the mexicans, or the US salesman?

And technically, the sweeter the corn used as feedstock, the more quickly and easily and efficiently you can produce ethanol. The only thing that yeast can turn into alcohol is sugar.

Feed corn is only used now because it's available, durable, and easiest to handle, but in the future there will almost certainly be specialized breeds of corn (and other plants) that are used for fuel feedstocks.

I wonder if they will silage the whole young corn plant, before the kernals harden and dry, to convert more of it to sugars with bacterial enzymes, before they make it into mash? Farmer types know silage is sweeter than raw dried plants.

Let's hope that someone can successfully manufacture cheap enzymes to convert cellulose to sugars.

[exarmyranger]

Yeah, well, the price rise of tortillas in latin america is obviously a market thing, based on the perception and fear that the era of cheap food corn is coming to an end, and that america will burn it's corn rather than sell it cheaply to nearby countries.

It's not possible that suddenly so much more ethanol is being produced that it's using up the excess corn and driving up prices.

So I guess the latinos are suffering from corn middlemen taking advantage of the fear. I wonder who's making money off of this - is it the mexicans, or the US salesman?

And technically, the sweeter the corn used as feedstock, the more quickly and easily and efficiently you can produce ethanol. The only thing that yeast can turn into alcohol is sugar.

Feed corn is only used now because it's available, durable, and easiest to handle, but in the future there will almost certainly be specialized breeds of corn (and other plants) that are used for fuel feedstocks.

I wonder if they will silage the whole young corn plant, before the kernals harden and dry, to convert more of it to sugars with bacterial enzymes, before they make it into mash? Farmer types know silage is sweeter than raw dried plants.

Let's hope that someone can successfully manufacture cheap enzymes to convert cellulose to sugars.:thumbsup: Yep,sounds to me like you've ate a few new ears of field corn in your time Bill.If the lab boy's got 10% of the research fundings,that goes to develop arm's,and hi-tech military equipment.,to the ethanol/alternative fuel(s)and the horticulture needed for Super scale production.We'd all be driving around on sqeezings in a few years.IMO,t/c ex ;)

[Tommy]

ya know whats really stinks about this

sugar is what you really wanna make ethanol from

when I was on vacation in Hawaii (years ago)
on ALL the tours of whatever the tour guides would go thru a lot of trouble
to point out the poverty caused by the way the sugar industry has changed

see way back when, Hawaii produced most of the worlds sugar but then africa started growing sugar cane and since they have cheap labor and no government standards they produced it a lot cheaper

why don't we subsidize the sugar industry in Hawaii and get those people and those farms back up and working again and produce ethanol from that

see and then maybe the price of sugar would rise a bit and that would let Hawaiian farmers compete in the regular sugar market

[exarmyranger]

Yo T-Man,what ya been doing,since the good Sen.Kerry pulled his name out of the hat...Sugar is Fl.'s largest (other than citrus) money crop.Cane plantations,are responcible for more permanent eco damage to the glades, than urban sprawl is.Corn used for(livestock feed,and oil)requires more fertilization than any other anual plant/harvest crop.Cane needs heavy fertilization also,the runoff from the cane fields reak havock on surounding wetlands,and the wildlife that inhabit them.After cane is harvested/cut from the stalk.the aboveground remains of cane in the field are burned off.The runoff from the topsoil,has enough residule chemicals (fertilizer/pestisides)to be deemed Toxic(harmful to humans plants and animals) Hawaii can concider its self luckey the cost vrs. profit margins are not worth the destruction of thier remaining unmolested,potentcial cane field...lowlands.Besides theres something about starches from combining salt and vinager, forming into sugar(s) needed in the corn oil to ethanol proccess...not the fruitcose from cane sugar...I believe.ex

[Tommy]

well I will be the first to admit that I know didly about growing stuff

[Mr. Blue]

Well, biofuels are more or less a novel idea, but can never honestly replace oil. In fact it probably hurts more than it helps, because people get some odd notion that we'd be able to produce enough ethanol to supply our needs. It's just not going to happen.

[exarmyranger]

Well, biofuels are more or less a novel idea, but can never honestly replace oil. In fact it probably hurts more than it helps, because people get some odd notion that we'd be able to produce enough ethanol to supply our needs. It's just not going to happen.
Yo Mr.Blue,that is the:(sad truth,at this time...,tomorrow,you never can tell...:thumbsup: ex.