WHAT WE NEED TO BLOW THE LID OFF, IS A NEW WAR IN THE M.E....FORGET IRAN

[stefan segal]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/85808B77-58B8-4C00-866C-7F38FEB253A7.htm

Turkey mulls 'invading' Iraq
By Jonathan Gorvett in Istanbul

Turkey considers the PKK a terrorist group and continues to fight it in the southeast [EPA]

Turkey's parliament went into secret session this week to debate sending troops to invade and occupy northern Iraq for security purposes.

More than 30,000 people have been killed in the confrontation between the Kurdish Workers Party (PKK) and the Turkish army – about 400 last year alone, according to Turkey's Human Rights Association.

Onur Oymen, the deputy chairman of the Opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP), said: "Northern Iraq is the only place in the world where a terrorist group can operate without being pursued."

"If the Iraqis and the US are not prepared to take action over this, then we must."

Oymen referred to bases in northern Iraq belonging to the PKK which has been fighting Turkish troops since the 1980s to try to establish a separate Kurdish state in southeastern Turkey.

Northern Iraq has been effectively independent of Baghdad's control since the early 1990s.

"The US are doing nothing and the Kurdish authorities are doing nothing"

Onur Oymen, CHP deputy chairman

Casualties mounting

The PKK have bases around Kandili mountain in northern Iraq, and despite requests from Turkey for Iraqi and US occupation forces to attack these bases, Turkey says nothing has been done.

"The US are doing nothing and the Kurdish authorities are doing nothing," Oymen said.

"But we have the right to secure our borders – and if they act against an intervention by Turkish troops, then we must take the necessary action in response."

US officials deny that they have been inactive. On January 17, US and Iraqi Kurdish troops moved in on the Mahmur refugee camp in northern Iraq, which Turkey had long claimed was a PKK training and recruiting camp.

However, the troops said they did not find any weapons or explosives.

At the same time, Nicholas Burns, the US under-secretary of state for political affairs, said that the US was "trying to find what can be done to stop PKK attacks on the Turkish military" without the need for any further "resort to the use of force".

Kirkuk

Ankara also has concerns over the Iraqi city of Kirkuk, which will hold a referendum on its future status this year.

The oil-rich city has a Turkomen and Arab population that Ankara says is being sidelined by Kurds in a rush to take control.

A recent conference held in the Turkish capital to discuss the status of Kirkuk drew criticism from Kurdish leaders, who saw it as interference in Iraqi internal affairs.

Erdogan said Turkey has every
right to discuss Kirkuk [EPA]

This prompted Recip Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish prime minister, to hit back, saying that Turkey had every right to discuss the city and could not "remain indifferent to the plight of the Turkomens and Arabs … in Kirkuk".

But Massoud Barzani, leader of one of two main Iraqi Kurdish factions, the Kurdish Democratic Party (KDP), said last week: "These threats are worthless. We are not afraid of Turkey."

[kres24GT]

Fighting wars is pointless. The U.S. will never be able to fight another effective war. Who wins American Idol is far more important anyway.

[stefan segal]

I'm beginning to understand that whatever saggy-assed country the US attempts to assert influence by force of arms, the usual suspects ruch in to sell them arms and techno assistance...theyby accomplishing two things:

One...the sell all their old shit while financing the new arms,all the while consolodating their forces around defending against the weaponry and tactics we display on the field.

Secondly, the more aggressive we become, the faster they use surragates to wear down our forces, money and equipment.

They can't loose...in fact, if I were Iran or Syria, N.Korea, and a host of others we managed to hartily piss off...that's exactly what I would do. I miught even leak threats I made up about saggy-assed but beligerent countries...then warned them about the US comming to call...and hadn't they better stock up with some new arms?

Stefan

[kres24GT]

I'm beginning to understand that whatever saggy-assed country the US attempts to assert influence by force of arms, the usual suspects ruch in to sell them arms and techno assistance...theyby accomplishing two things:

One...the sell all their old shit while financing the new arms,all the while consolodating their forces around defending against the weaponry and tactics we display on the field.

Secondly, the more aggressive we become, the faster they use surragates to wear down our forces, money and equipment.

They can't loose...in fact, if I were Iran or Syria, N.Korea, and a host of others we managed to hartily piss off...that's exactly what I would do. I miught even leak threats I made up about saggy-assed but beligerent countries...then warned them about the US comming to call...and hadn't they better stock up with some new arms?

Stefan


We are too pussy to win a war. Plain and simple. We will never effectively wage war on someone ever again, we are just too big a nation of gaping vaginas to be able to do it.

[Betty Blowtorch]

We are too pussy to win a war. Plain and simple.
We will never effectively wage war on someone
ever again, we are just too big a nation of gaping
vaginas to be able to do it.
Hey, you commie pinko http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/4558/avatarcheguevaragk0.jpg

We kicked Grenada's ass BIGTIME. http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/7475/avatar1565ai2.gif


And if Liechtenstein gives us any shit, http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7770/avatarflageagle2zy2.gif
we'll kick their asses too.

We're #1 and don't you forget it, pal. http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2700/avatarbushkingstinkypanbw3.jpg

[stefan segal]

Don't kid yourself Kres...of all the "civilized" nations on earth, we rank up there with the most corrupt and the most vicious.

We are a land of killers. What large cities around the world can come close to us with the number of DOA's we produce here in the good old US of A, stack bodys up like cord wood every weekend in every city...Iraq...Somalia...the slums of Bogata?

Name a population in the idustrial world who trains their kids from diapers upward in shooting thier plastic guns and falling on the ground shot dead, watching and playing shoot-em up digital games, and if the streets seem safe from drive-by shootings, play cowboys or army man all over the neighborhood?

Name a civilized population that is so individually well armed as the US citizen.

If it's not safe to go out, then they watch cartoon characters get dismembered and mangled...great fun...and better training.

I think you should widen you experiience a bit...you'll find no shortage of non-conflicted would-be and wanna-be soldiers of fortune right in your neighborhood.

Stefan

[kres24GT]

I saw too many people die in Iraq because we were to pussy to do what we needed to do, because we cared more about our enemies life than our own. Because our superiors cared more about their careers than the lives of their troops. Not to mention most of what you do is being taped by people who could care less about your life or your mission, they are on a quest for ratings. War is hell, and crazy shit happens, it's hardly an exercise that should be videotaped and analyzed as someone's normal state of mind.

But it is, and everyone in the military knows it, and it makes it impossible to effectively wage war.



Anyone who thinks this country hasn't been incredibly pussified in the past decade or so is blind or not paying attention.

[stefan segal]

Kres...Interesting point...the video and the normal state of mind.

There was a trial once involving muder and canibalism in a life-boatload of starving survivers..the judge made no allowances for their outlook of their future or their physical condition (if memory serves), and I had this same conclusion...it's contest between the greater and greatest immoralities.

Where I think you go wrong Kres, is the surprising professionalism of these soldiers. There is a core group, to which recruits are added, bagged and sent home...mostly without this sense of duty to job and compadres....they don't survive well. Not to say that every body bag is filled with ineptitude...there are many IED's which can't be protected against, as they can penetrate tank armor and don't advertize where they are...but speaking broadly...this is not your daddy's soldier...this is a new breed. They all speak knowledgebly and with dedication and a professionalism I've only seen previously in fighter pilots.

As much as I'm against war...these soldiers of ours today are something to be proud of...I know I am awed by them.

I aggree theat there is a world of brain-dead cowards rife inour population, but it's not the first time in our history...and it won't be the last time that we've roused ourselves out of our lethargy to rectify a wrong to our people or our nation...we are habitually late for the crisis at hand, but in the end, we show the world what we got.

WWII...before that war, higher ups were going crazy because their neocons were driving thier nation into war with the US...the cry was: Don't wake the sleeping bear...Those Japanese who had been to the US, were terrified that the US should bring it's weaight to bear on Japan...and ultimately when war was no a choice but decided upon...their strategy was to hit hard first, then while still occupied with Hitler, sue for an immediate peace.

I know...we are not those WWII men, as a nation...but actually we are those men...all we lack is a cause we believe in and some discomfort to fire up up.

In the late thirties and early forties, we were thundering out of the depression with "a chicken in every pot"...factories were hiring, everyone was buying or ordering new cars...we were getting rich supplying Europe to fight their wars...why would we want to join when life was finally looking up?

The men/families weren't a united force like some cold war Russian painting of heroic farm laborers...our population fought against it hard, and had to be tricked and drafted to go.

Once soldiers were being killed and we appeared to be getting our asses handed to us in the most internationally degrading manner, then...and only then, did we get serious as a population.

You wouldn't be here today if glib judgements of people's limitations had any merit.

So I'm saying you've overstepped yourself, and need a rethink.

Stefan

[kres24GT]

I am an OIF vet and I have seen it first hand. We lose guys because of BS ROEs that are only there because we are a bunch of pussies. Are enemies use this against us as well.

Am I going to condone my fellow Marines killing Iraqi civilians? No, of course not. Am I going to cut them some slack. Yes. Is that right or wrong? I don't know.

How you feel about the war doesn't matter. If you are going to send people to fight, don't do it and expect it to be some war movie where everyone is honorable and its a big game where everyone follows the rules. Let them do what they need to do to get the job you sent them over to possibly die for. Don't send them off to die for whatever the reasons are and then try and hinder them at every turn so that we look good doing it.

Everything isn't black and white, especially when people are killing each other. You are right, a lot of people in the military today are very professional and have a good head on their shoulders. But you still also get plenty of guys who are only there because they can't get a job anywhere else. If you have to let these guys get away with some vile and disgusting things to achieve this, then so be it. War isn't glorious, it isn't pretty. Those who wish it to make such are better served to writing Hollywood screenplays.

Clearly we don't want to send our troops in to foreign lands with a free pass to rape and pillage. But whenever a Marine or Solider does have to pull the trigger, he shouldn't be scrutinized to death because there were some cameras around or some office is worried about making retirement.

We are an extremely pussified nation. We only need to look to our public school system to see this. We try to change the way grades are given so people don't get their feelings hurt. We set limits to scoring in sporting events (in some cases get rid of it all together) to avoid the same. We don't let kids play tag because they might get hurt.

I guess I have finally broken character now. But I do feel strongly we should not fight wars anymore until we give our troops the authority to value their lives above that of our enemies. Seen too many guys die because of BS.

If we had the same level of pussification in this country along with the rules of war and engagement we have now (and we are one of the very few who even follow these) we never would have won any war.

[stefan segal]

Okay Kres...I see and understand where you're comming from. I can't argue it, and I refuse to be an apologist for people allowing themselves to absorb the politico's fanstasy world into their world view.

I can't stad that aspect either...but you find stuff only where you look...if you look for pussies to bolster up your opinion, then you'll find them all over...it's like buying Ford...suddenly, the whole world is driving Fords and you didn't notice before...now that you look...that's all you see..even though Toyota is chasing their traditional lead.

But people aren't fixed like cars...they change with new imput. If the government and the news media it controls, were selling the straight goods (then we wouldn't be warring in the first place), and the people could trust what they hear...then I believe they would come to more realistic decisions...it's a garbage in...garbage out...sort of deal.

Kres...you have broken character...but I think you have a lot more to say than the limits of that character allows...I thnk it is a good thing,

Note: If you did Borat instead of Colbert, you wouldn't have any speach limitations at all :)

Stefan

[kres24GT]

People refuse to see that they are giving up their freedoms to government. They don't want to admit it, because it is so ingrained on us that we are a free nation. I always laugh when I see people whining about freedom, mostly because I know more than likely they vote against freedom every chance they get (i.e. vote Republican or Democrat). No one notices their freedom is gone until it contradicts with they way they live their normal lives. If it doesn't affect someone, or it affect someone else people are all for opposing freedom and imposing the will of government on people. Only the goofiness of I Love Big Government can at least begin to show people what they are doing, or at least make them think about it.

Anyway since I am done with that now here is a little about the real kres. I am 27 years old and spent 6 years in the Marine Corps and served in Iraq. I am currently a business analyst for a courier company here in Atlanta, GA. I graduated from a private high school and spent 3 years in college before my Marine duties pulled me away. I plan on going back this summer right after my upcoming wedding. While I hate political parties I have a libertarian viewpoint and vote accordingly. I vote for the candidates who are for the least amount of government, just so happens most of them happen to be Libertarian. I love freedom and personal responsibility and hate dependence on anyone, especially government. Government is a necessary evil. The goal of government should be to have as little influence in people's lives as possible, while still maintaining the peace...clearly such is not the case today.

[Betty Blowtorch]

We are an extremely pussified nation. If we had the same
level of pussification in this country along with the rules of
war and engagement we have now (and we are one of the
very few who even follow these) we never would have won
any war.
It sounds like you're alluding to the "stab in the back" theory:

Hitler claimed that the German military didn't lose World War I.
German politicians prevented the military from winning.

Vietnam vets claim that the U.S. military didn't lose the war
in Vietnam. American politicians and the anti-war movement
prevented the military from winning.

Today, right-wingers in favor of the Iraq War are complaining
that we're not winning because the American public is failing
to give full support to the military mission. Pro-war wingnuts
blame people like John Murtha and Cindy Sheehan for the fact
that we're not winning.

But the "stab in the back" theory misses the primary point:
The reason we're stuck in a quagmire in Iraq is because of
the difference between 3rd and 4th generation warfare.

The U.S. military is very powerful in 3rd generation warfare,
which is war between the armies of nation-states. In this
type of war, once an army defeats another nation's army,
surrender documents are signed and the war is over.

Fourth generation warfare is non-state insurgent warfare.
This type of war can't be won by simply forcing a nation's
army to surrender. To win an insurgent war, you have to
get every guerrilla with an AK-47 and an IED to surrender.
And the only way to do that is with lots and lots of boots
on the ground.

The U.S. military defeated the Iraqi army in a few weeks.
They won the 3rd generation war. But they're losing the
4th generation war. Some U.S. military commanders have
claimed that a minimum of 300,000 troops would be needed
to quell the Iraqi insurgency, but I think they're low-balling.
We couldn't defeat the Vietnamese even with half a million
G.I. boots on the ground, and I think the situation is similar
in Iraq.

Using 3rd generation military methods to try to defeat a
4th generation insurgency is like trying to swat flies with
a sledgehammer.

The Iraq War is just plain wrong. After 9-11, Bush needed
to kill or capture Osama bin Laden, destroy al-Qaida and
other terrorist networks, and beef up our defenses against
terrorist attacks.

Instead Bush got us bogged down in Iraqi quicksand and
wasted a shitload of money that could have been better
spent.

[kres24GT]

It sounds like you're alluding to the "stab in the back" theory:

Hitler claimed that the German military didn't lose World War I.
German politicians prevented the military from winning.

Vietnam vets claim that the U.S. military didn't lose the war
in Vietnam. American politicians and the anti-war movement
prevented the military from winning.

Today, right-wingers in favor of the Iraq War are complaining
that we're not winning because the American public is failing
to give full support to the military mission. Pro-war wingnuts
blame people like John Murtha and Cindy Sheehan for the fact
that we're not winning.

But the "stab in the back" theory misses the primary point:
The reason we're stuck in a quagmire in Iraq is because of
the difference between 3rd and 4th generation warfare.

The U.S. military is very powerful in 3rd generation warfare,
which is war between the armies of nation-states. In this
type of war, once an army defeats another nation's army,
surrender documents are signed and the war is over.

Fourth generation warfare is non-state insurgent warfare.
This type of war can't be won by simply forcing a nation's
army to surrender. To win an insurgent war, you have to
get every guerrilla with an AK-47 and an IED to surrender.
And the only way to do that is with lots and lots of boots
on the ground.

The U.S. military defeated the Iraqi army in a few weeks.
They won the 3rd generation war. But they're losing the
4th generation war. Some U.S. military commanders have
claimed that a minimum of 300,000 troops would be needed
to quell the Iraqi insurgency, but I think they're low-balling.
We couldn't defeat the Vietnamese even with half a million
G.I. boots on the ground, and I think the situation is similar
in Iraq.

Using 3rd generation military methods to try to defeat a
4th generation insurgency is like trying to swat flies with
a sledgehammer.

The Iraq War is just plain wrong. After 9-11, Bush needed
to kill or capture Osama bin Laden, destroy al-Qaida and
other terrorist networks, and beef up our defenses against
terrorist attacks.

Instead Bush got us bogged down in Iraqi quicksand and
wasted a shitload of money that could have been better
spent.



I am not a right winger, a Bush fan, or a supporter of the idea that war in Iraq was a good idea. You are 100% correct in your assessment of how warfare has changed, which only adds to my point that we need to untie the hands of our troops if we are going to send them off to die, for whatever the reasons may be.

[Betty Blowtorch]

I am not a right winger, a Bush fan, or a supporter
of the idea that war in Iraq was a good idea.
That's good to hear.



You are 100% correct in your assessment of how warfare
has changed, which only adds to my point that we need
to untie the hands of our troops if we are going to send
them off to die, for whatever the reasons may be.
We need to choose our wars more carefully, only fighting
the ones that are absolutely necessary. It's smarter and
cheaper to get what you want through political, economic
and diplomatic means instead of waging war.

[kres24GT]

That's good to hear.


We need to choose our wars more carefully, only fighting
the ones that are absolutely necessary. It's smarter and
cheaper to get what you want through political, economic
and diplomatic means instead of waging war.


I don't disagree with anything (mostly anyway) you are saying except for the fact that it somehow means what I am saying about the pussification of America and the tying of our troops hands makes it impossible to effectively fight a war. I don't get the connection. Partisan politics is also a hinderance.

[exarmyranger]

I am an OIF vet and I have seen it first hand. We lose guys because of BS ROEs that are only there because we are a bunch of pussies. Are enemies use this against us as well.

Am I going to condone my fellow Marines killing Iraqi civilians? No, of course not. Am I going to cut them some slack. Yes. Is that right or wrong? I don't know.

How you feel about the war doesn't matter. If you are going to send people to fight, don't do it and expect it to be some war movie where everyone is honorable and its a big game where everyone follows the rules. Let them do what they need to do to get the job you sent them over to possibly die for. Don't send them off to die for whatever the reasons are and then try and hinder them at every turn so that we look good doing it.

Everything isn't black and white, especially when people are killing each other. You are right, a lot of people in the military today are very professional and have a good head on their shoulders. But you still also get plenty of guys who are only there because they can't get a job anywhere else. If you have to let these guys get away with some vile and disgusting things to achieve this, then so be it. War isn't glorious, it isn't pretty. Those who wish it to make such are better served to writing Hollywood screenplays.

Clearly we don't want to send our troops in to foreign lands with a free pass to rape and pillage. But whenever a Marine or Solider does have to pull the trigger, he shouldn't be scrutinized to death because there were some cameras around or some office is worried about making retirement.

We are an extremely pussified nation. We only need to look to our public school system to see this. We try to change the way grades are given so people don't get their feelings hurt. We set limits to scoring in sporting events (in some cases get rid of it all together) to avoid the same. We don't let kids play tag because they might get hurt.

I guess I have finally broken character now. But I do feel strongly we should not fight wars anymore until we give our troops the authority to value their lives above that of our enemies. Seen too many guys die because of BS.

If we had the same level of pussification in this country along with the rules of war and engagement we have now (and we are one of the very few who even follow these) we never would have won any war.Yo JarHead,refreshing break in character,imo...As an Army Ranger(101st.A/B.69-75)in S.E.Asia.My M.O.S.(s)were S.S.F.,L.R.R.P.,S&D... Laos,Cambodia,cen.& n.Vietnam,s.China...B.Z.,Hue Phu Bai,Hill 180 (Camp Eagle)M.R.1,area.No stranger to combat,both A.P.(For the folk's back home via Chet&David)film/pic./reps...or covert opps.As much as I regret...to say it , our national pastime of blaming any/everything that upsets/interferes with our apathetic bliss...anywhere but where it(the blame)belongs.Which is with..."We The People"! Not Dem.Rep.Lib.Con.R-Wing.L-Wing,duly elected voice(s)of "The People"!Remember back when,Pride,Honer,& Glory,were more important to "men" than being politicaly correct?If so could you refresh my memorey?Carry On Marine!ex