If We Could Turn Back 8 Years?

[Moby]

It seems that the big issues facing America today didn't exist before Bush took office.


Iraq and Afghanistan war.
Economic Crisis.
Home Foreclosures.
Doubling of Health Care costs.
Massive Budget Deficits.


Will the next President be successful if he can just fix the problems created by the Bush policies?

[SeniorChief]

It seems that the big issues facing America today didn't exist before Bush took office.


Iraq and Afghanistan war.
Economic Crisis.
Home Foreclosures.
Doubling of Health Care costs.
Massive Budget Deficits.


Will the next President be successful if he can just fix the problems created by the Bush policies?

You forgot 9/11.....

....like so many others have.

[BlackAsCoal]

It seems that the big issues facing America today didn't exist before Bush took office.


Iraq and Afghanistan war.
Economic Crisis.
Home Foreclosures.
Doubling of Health Care costs.
Massive Budget Deficits.


Will the next President be successful if he can just fix the problems created by the Bush policies?

The next president can't fix all that ails America .. because the next president, whomever he may be, will be a plutocrat. They are the only people Americans elect as presidents .. because we're stupid.

Nothing can stop the inevitably decline of this nation.

[BlackAsCoal]

You forgot 9/11.....

....like so many others have.

Anyone who believes the 9/11 story automatically qualifies as the Valedictorian Magna Cum Laude of Moronic Thought.

You would have to be a moron to believe 9/11 happened as claimed.

[SeniorChief]

You would have to be a moron to believe 9/11 happened as claimed.

You're a fucking idiot.

Am I the third or fourth person to tell you that already today.

[bairdi]

You forgot 9/11.....

....like so many others have.
I thought I would never be saying this, but you are right Chief. 9/11 did occur on Bush's watch and the effects of that event is yet another issue that the next president will have to deal with along with the issues that Moby stated. Just think how different the world would have been today had the Supreme Court not stepped in and stopped the count, or if Bush had listened to the warnings of Richard Clarke.

[BlackAsCoal]

You're a fucking idiot.

Am I the third or fourth person to tell you that already today.

:lmao2:

You a funny motherfucker.

Are you Don Rickles?

Ask yourself a serious question .. do I sound like I give a fuck how many times idiots call me an idiot .. or anything else? ...

I can assure you I don't.

In fact, I enjoy it .. means that I've got the intellectual boot up somebody's ass ;)

What did you call me again ...

[BlackAsCoal]

I thought I would never be saying this, but you are right Chief. 9/11 did occur on Bush's watch and the effects of that event is yet another issue that the next president will have to deal with along with the issues that Moby stated. Just think how different the world would have been today had the Supreme Court not stepped in and stopped the count, or if Bush had listened to the warnings of Richard Clarke.

9/11 was a contrived event .. and the problem isn't the Supreme Court or listening to Richard Clarke. The problem is the American people.

[SeniorChief]

9/11 was a contrived event ....

Yes it was. By Al Queda and carried out by Saudi Arabians.

But please do share your conspiracy theory with us, asswipe, the one Michael Moore taught you.

It'll show the board once more how pathetically idiotic and brain-dead you are.

[bairdi]

9/11 was a contrived event .. and the problem isn't the Supreme Court or listening to Richard Clarke. The problem is the American people.
Contrived or not it is an event that most probably would not have happened had the neocons been blocked from power. The presidency of George Bush opened the floodgates for implementation of their failed philosophy and policies.

[SeniorChief]

Contrived or not it is an event that most probably would not have happened had the neocons been blocked from power. The presidency of George Bush opened the floodgates for implementation of their failed philosophy and policies.

They (attackers) attended flight school in Florida under Clinton's watch and OBL was indeed a US target under his administration.

The whole 9/11 attack was planned under Clinton's watch.

[BlackAsCoal]

Yes it was. By Al Queda and carried out by Saudi Arabians.

But please do share your conspiracy theory with us, asswipe, the one Michael Moore taught you.

It'll show the board once more how pathetically idiotic and brain-dead you are.

I say whatever the fuck I want to say .. point #1

I'm real sure people with brains recognize who the idiot is here.

the questions of 9/11 can be answered scientifically .. thus why would I care to discuss it with an idiot like you. You don't know science ;)

If it doesn't float, it's news to you :)

By the way, do you ever discuss actual issues .. or is this masturbation for you .. a way to release the anger of a sorry ass life?

[SeniorChief]

I say whatever the fuck I want to say .. point #1



Point taken.

Now insert an ounce of intelligence into something you say, and perhaps you'll be listened to.

In fact, until you dramatically improve the quality of your fucking posts - please don't address me.

If I seek your input, I'll fart. That'll be your "signal" to respond.

Thanks for your cooperation.

[BlackAsCoal]

Contrived or not it is an event that most probably would not have happened had the neocons been blocked from power. The presidency of George Bush opened the floodgates for implementation of their failed philosophy and policies.

Who allowed them into power? .. The American people.

They stole not one, but two presidential elections right in front of our faces.

If this election is close they'll steal it again .. and the fraud of electronic voting has been conclusively proven for at least 4 years .. yet, here we are again vulnerable to the exact same fraud.

Whose fault is that?

Politicians?
The media?

When they got away with 9/11, they knew they could get away with ANYTHING.

[asroc]

Yes it was. By Al Queda and carried out by Saudi Arabians.

http://thegreenlineblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/300_bush-saudi1.jpg

[BlackAsCoal]

http://thegreenlineblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/300_bush-saudi1.jpg

Well said.

[SeniorChief]

Fucking dumb idiots...

http://publiuspundit.com/Clinton%20Saudi.jpg

[SeniorChief]

http://members.cox.net/espressopundit/gore%20in%20saudi.jpg

[SeniorChief]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aSb5yhaSkgRW/610x.jpg

[SeniorChief]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/05Jf6Bb93v8ln/610x.jpg

[asroc]

SeniorChief is really proving a point there guys.

[SeniorChief]

http://www.sondrak.com/archive/skpics/clintonarafat.jpg

[SeniorChief]

http://vvvvvv.killglare.com/stuff/files/2008/01/obama-sharpton.jpg

[asroc]

I'm just going to assume we've abandoned the topic and are now just posting goofy pictures of world leaders:

http://www.bartcop.com/putin-flowers.jpg

[SeniorChief]

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/2008/03/31/barack_obama_jeremiah_wright.jpg

[asroc]

I think I broke SeniorChief's brain.

[Scumbag]

I'm just going to assume we've abandoned the topic and are now just posting goofy pictures of world leaders:


This topic went off the rails after post #4!

[Scumbag]

9/11 was a contrived event .. and the problem isn't the Supreme Court or listening to Richard Clarke. The problem is the American people.
Here's an invitation to put your case on that statement, blackas!

http://dcjunkies.com/showthread.php?t=191

Make sure you read every post, now!

We wouldn't want you to go off half cocked spouting weird and wonderful claims which have already been shot down in flames!


:thumbsup:

[BlackAsCoal]

I'm just going to assume we've abandoned the topic and are now just posting goofy pictures of world leaders:

http://www.bartcop.com/putin-flowers.jpg

Did you expect anything more from them?

You can also correctly assume that none of them have the intelligence to offer the slightest modicum of civil adult debate.

DCComics .. that's what this site is.

[BlackAsCoal]

Here's an invitation to put your case on that statement, blackas!

http://dcjunkies.com/showthread.php?t=191

Make sure you read every post, now!

We wouldn't want you to go off half cocked spouting weird and wonderful claims which have already been shot down in flames!


:thumbsup:

NAW .. I pass scumboy.

Don't need to read one damn thing to KNOW that you don't have a clue why WTC7 fell .. don't worry, the 9/11 Commission didn't have a clue either .. especially given that there is no science behind it and it can't even be recreated in a lab.

Don't get it twisted .. I'm not trying to convince you of anything .. I like the opposition dumb. :)

[Cat slave]

I'm just going to assume we've abandoned the topic and are now just posting goofy pictures of world leaders:

http://www.bartcop.com/putin-flowers.jpg

Obviously the point avades your limited thought processes or any semblance
thereof!:taunt:

Should McAmnesty dump Sara Palin the finger on my voting screen will go
straight to Alan Keyes and Ill have the pleasure of dumping that disgusting
RINO who belongs on the dark side with Kennedy, Pelosi and the rest of his
leftist elites.

Of course The Pied Piper/Messiah will win the presidency, but hell, what difference could it possibly make? Lets go ahead and bring this thing to a
head and see what rises out of the ashes if anything at all. This may be
the end and there is nothing we can do about it.

The only pleasure in the whole thing is that the idiots who embrace BO
and his ilk will fall just as hard as the rest of us and it will be over.

[Cat slave]

Those pictures make me breathe fire. Dont you clowns get it at least a little?
Silly question!!!!

[Scumbag]

NAW .. I pass scumboy.

Don't need to read one damn thing to KNOW that you don't have a clue why WTC7 fell .. don't worry, the 9/11 Commission didn't have a clue either .. especially given that there is no science behind it and it can't even be recreated in a lab.

Don't get it twisted .. I'm not trying to convince you of anything .. I like the opposition dumb. :)
Yeah, I figured you had already been there anyway.

There's only one other goose who claimed the whole thing could be solved with science.

My take is you are one and the same!

:)

[asroc]

Obviously the point avades your limited thought processes or any semblance
thereof!:taunt:

Should McAmnesty dump Sara Palin the finger on my voting screen will go
straight to Alan Keyes and Ill have the pleasure of dumping that disgusting
RINO who belongs on the dark side with Kennedy, Pelosi and the rest of his
leftist elites.

Of course The Pied Piper/Messiah will win the presidency, but hell, what difference could it possibly make? Lets go ahead and bring this thing to a
head and see what rises out of the ashes if anything at all. This may be
the end and there is nothing we can do about it.

Do you realize how insane and retarded this post looks?

Seriously.

[BlackAsCoal]

Yeah, I figured you had already been there anyway.

There's only one other goose who claimed the whole thing could be solved with science.

My take is you are one and the same!

:)

I never post as anyone but blackascoal, if that's what you're suggesting. I stand by what I post and have ZERO problems with anyone challenging what I say.

.. but how about this "goose?"

USAF Lt. Col. Robert Bowman PhD

Former Director of Advanced Space Programs Development for the U.S. Air Force in the Ford and Carter administrations

United States Air Force Lieutenant Colonel with 101 combat missions.

Holds a Ph.D. in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from the California Institute of Technology.

President of the Institute for Space and Security Studies

Executive Vice President of Millennium III Corporation

Recipient of the Eisenhower Medal
George F. Kennan Peace Prize
President’s Medal of Veterans for Peace
Society of Military Engineers' ROTC Award of Merit (twice)
Six Air Medals

Chaired 8 major international conferences

One of the country’s foremost experts on National Security

Retired Presiding Archbishop of the United Catholic Church

Let me take a leap and say this guy knows more than a little about flying, government. and security.

The Impossibility of the Official Story
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6900065571556128674

Then of course, there's these guys ...

Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret)
30,000+ Total Flight Time
707, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777
Pan Am, United
United States Air Force (ret)
Over 100 Combat Missions Flown
Has time in:
- N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
- N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)

Captain Ross Aimer
UAL Ret.
CEO, Aviation Experts LLC
40 years and 30,000 hrs.
BS Aero
A&P Mech.
B-777/767/757/747/737/727/720/707, DC-10/-9/-8 Type ratings
Command time in:
- N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
- N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)

Robert Balsamo
4000TT Commercial, Instrument, Multi, CFI II MEI
Corporate Chief Pilot
135 Capt
121 FO Independence Air/Atlantic Coast Airlines
King Air C-90/200, Dornier 328JET

John Lear
Son of Bill Lear
(Founder, creator of the Lear Jet Corporation)
More than 40 years of Flying
19,000+ TT
23 Type ratings
Flight experience includes 707, DC-8, 727, L10-11

Jeff Latas
-Over 20 years in the USAF
--USAF Accident investigation Board President
--Flew the F-111, T38, and F-15E
--Combat experience in the F-15E includes Desert Storm and four tours of duty in Northern and Southern Watch
--Weapons Requirements Officer, USAF HQ, Pentagon
--Standard and Evaluations Flight Examiner, Command level
-Currently Captain for JetBlue Airways

Guy S. Razer, LtCol, USAF (Ret)
3,500+ Hours Total Flight Time
F-15E/C, F-111A/D/E/F/EF, F-16, F-18, B-1, Mig-29, SU-22, T-37/38, Various Cvilian Prop
Combat Time: Operation Northern Watch
USAF Fighter Weapons School Instructor
NATO Tactical Leadership Program Instructor/Mission Coordinator
USAF Material Command Weapons Development Test Pilot
Combat Support Coordination Team 2 Airpower Coordinator, South Korea
All Service Combat Identification Evaluation Team Operations Officer
Boeing F-22 Pilot Instructor
MS Aeronautical Studies, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University

Colonel Michael Harley USAF (ret)
Command pilot
~ 6000 Total Flight Time
T-38,T-33, T-37,T-39, C-47, U-6, Uh-1, C130A, B, E, &
prototype H, Kc-135 and B-52.
26 years commissioned. 34 Years total service USAF Accident Investigator
Instructor Accident Investigation, Embry-Riddle University
Management analyst and IG, simulator instructor,
Instructor Pilot, Standardization Evaluation Pilot,
Chief of Standardization of a Sac Wing equipped with B-52, RC-135 and Kc-135
Flew Cessna 177, Twin Bonanza, Cherokee-6
~200 hours as civilian private pilot

... and many more SEASONED combat and civilian pilots with thousands of hours of flight time .. who don't believe the fairy-tale either

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html

There also lots of scientists, engineers, and structral analysts .. but it doesn't take rocket science intelligence to recognize the fraud of 9/11 .. or that never before in the history of fires, buildings, or Man has a steel frame building EVER melted/collapsed from fire .. and it's never happened since or will it ever. It is scientifically impossible.

Feel free to believe whtever God told you to believe ;)

[Moby]

You forgot 9/11.....

....like so many others have.
We know that happened right after Bush took the longest vacation of any first term President in the history of America. No one has forgotten that but we don't know what might have happened if he was on the job as much as all other first term Presidents in the history of this nation.

[BlackAsCoal]

Is that silence I hear?

What .. no more links to bullshit theories?

[SeedyROM]

I never post as anyone but blackascoal, if that's what you're suggesting. I stand by what I post and have ZERO problems with anyone challenging what I say.

.. but how about this "goose?"

USAF Lt. Col. Robert Bowman PhD

Former Director of Advanced Space Programs Development for the U.S. Air Force in the Ford and Carter administrations

United States Air Force Lieutenant Colonel with 101 combat missions.

Holds a Ph.D. in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from the California Institute of Technology.

President of the Institute for Space and Security Studies

Executive Vice President of Millennium III Corporation

Recipient of the Eisenhower Medal
George F. Kennan Peace Prize
President’s Medal of Veterans for Peace
Society of Military Engineers' ROTC Award of Merit (twice)
Six Air Medals

Chaired 8 major international conferences

One of the country’s foremost experts on National Security

Retired Presiding Archbishop of the United Catholic Church

Let me take a leap and say this guy knows more than a little about flying, government. and security.

The Impossibility of the Official Story
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6900065571556128674

Then of course, there's these guys ...

Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret)
30,000+ Total Flight Time
707, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777
Pan Am, United
United States Air Force (ret)
Over 100 Combat Missions Flown
Has time in:
- N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
- N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)

Captain Ross Aimer
UAL Ret.
CEO, Aviation Experts LLC
40 years and 30,000 hrs.
BS Aero
A&P Mech.
B-777/767/757/747/737/727/720/707, DC-10/-9/-8 Type ratings
Command time in:
- N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
- N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)

Robert Balsamo
4000TT Commercial, Instrument, Multi, CFI II MEI
Corporate Chief Pilot
135 Capt
121 FO Independence Air/Atlantic Coast Airlines
King Air C-90/200, Dornier 328JET

John Lear
Son of Bill Lear
(Founder, creator of the Lear Jet Corporation)
More than 40 years of Flying
19,000+ TT
23 Type ratings
Flight experience includes 707, DC-8, 727, L10-11

Jeff Latas
-Over 20 years in the USAF
--USAF Accident investigation Board President
--Flew the F-111, T38, and F-15E
--Combat experience in the F-15E includes Desert Storm and four tours of duty in Northern and Southern Watch
--Weapons Requirements Officer, USAF HQ, Pentagon
--Standard and Evaluations Flight Examiner, Command level
-Currently Captain for JetBlue Airways

Guy S. Razer, LtCol, USAF (Ret)
3,500+ Hours Total Flight Time
F-15E/C, F-111A/D/E/F/EF, F-16, F-18, B-1, Mig-29, SU-22, T-37/38, Various Cvilian Prop
Combat Time: Operation Northern Watch
USAF Fighter Weapons School Instructor
NATO Tactical Leadership Program Instructor/Mission Coordinator
USAF Material Command Weapons Development Test Pilot
Combat Support Coordination Team 2 Airpower Coordinator, South Korea
All Service Combat Identification Evaluation Team Operations Officer
Boeing F-22 Pilot Instructor
MS Aeronautical Studies, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University

Colonel Michael Harley USAF (ret)
Command pilot
~ 6000 Total Flight Time
T-38,T-33, T-37,T-39, C-47, U-6, Uh-1, C130A, B, E, &
prototype H, Kc-135 and B-52.
26 years commissioned. 34 Years total service USAF Accident Investigator
Instructor Accident Investigation, Embry-Riddle University
Management analyst and IG, simulator instructor,
Instructor Pilot, Standardization Evaluation Pilot,
Chief of Standardization of a Sac Wing equipped with B-52, RC-135 and Kc-135
Flew Cessna 177, Twin Bonanza, Cherokee-6
~200 hours as civilian private pilot

... and many more SEASONED combat and civilian pilots with thousands of hours of flight time .. who don't believe the fairy-tale either

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html

There also lots of scientists, engineers, and structral analysts .. but it doesn't take rocket science intelligence to recognize the fraud of 9/11 .. or that never before in the history of fires, buildings, or Man has a steel frame building EVER melted/collapsed from fire .. and it's never happened since or will it ever. It is scientifically impossible.

Feel free to believe whtever God told you to believe ;)


YOU STUPID FUCK!!!!! 9/11 was not an inside job you fucking degenerate loser!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are a fucking joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mr, gone]

Seedy's PTSD is kicking in again!!! :lmao2: :hi: :lmao2:

[Scumbag]

Is that silence I hear?

What .. no more links to bullshit theories?
I invited you to read the relevent forum and discuss your claims there. You declined saying you know it all and then continued to attempt to hijack this thread.

http://dcjunkies.com/showthread.php?t=191

Whenever you're ready wise ass!

:read:

[Moby]

YOU STUPID FUCK!!!!! 9/11 was not an inside job you fucking degenerate loser!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are a fucking joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I used to travel all over the world on business and it didn't take long to realize two things.

1. No matter how loud and how slow you say something, if someone doesn't understand the words they still can't understand.

2. The more people are trying to bullshit you any where in the world, the louder they will speak.


You're right that it wasn't an inside job but if you believe that we got the complete story and that there wasn't some cover up of events then you're as wrong as your statement above is right.

[Soupnazi]

Anyone who believes the 9/11 story automatically qualifies as the Valedictorian Magna Cum Laude of Moronic Thought.

You would have to be a moron to believe 9/11 happened as claimed.

Wrong only a moron believes otherwise you are brainwashed and without any intellect to believe in the inside job theories all of which have been irrefutably proven to be myth

[Soupnazi]

9/11 was a contrived event .. and the problem isn't the Supreme Court or listening to Richard Clarke. The problem is the American people.

Of course it was a contrived event it was contrived by foreign terrorists and no one else.

[Soupnazi]

I say whatever the fuck I want to say .. point #1

I'm real sure people with brains recognize who the idiot is here.

the questions of 9/11 can be answered scientifically .. thus why would I care to discuss it with an idiot like you. You don't know science ;)

If it doesn't float, it's news to you :)

By the way, do you ever discuss actual issues .. or is this masturbation for you .. a way to release the anger of a sorry ass life?

Yes they can and have been scientifically answered and the answers consistently prove you are wrong and have a tabloid mentality. Believing in the inside job theory is as scientific as an elvis sighting

[Soupnazi]

Who allowed them into power? .. The American people.

They stole not one, but two presidential elections right in front of our faces.

If this election is close they'll steal it again .. and the fraud of electronic voting has been conclusively proven for at least 4 years .. yet, here we are again vulnerable to the exact same fraud.

Whose fault is that?

Politicians?
The media?

When they got away with 9/11, they knew they could get away with ANYTHING.

They did not get away with 911 . 911 was a foreign terrorist attack and that is an unchallenged fact.

Nor has any evidence ever been produced of stolen elections like it or not bush won both elections , legitimately, and that is also proven fact even thought I know you hate it

[Soupnazi]

Is that silence I hear?

What .. no more links to bullshit theories?
Yes it is you posting such links as well as names and credidentials of people you made up from your imagination and whose so called qualifications cannot be verified sorry you have nothing but belief in tabloid lies.

[tomc]

noone has forgotten 9/11 except the bush adminastration unless bush and his crones can use it as a scare tactic,remember the fall terror alerts.

[disrupter]

WARNING: Entering Long Pointless Rant Zone,
proceed at your own risk, you have been warned!

It is easier to not 'break the egg' in the first place,
rather than to attempt the virtually impossible job of 'un-breaking the egg' afterwards.

"Grasshopper, you must climb upon & ride the wave of light, so as not to incur the perturbations of all the other waves of light."
"Then your place is placid & timeless"

Now the really tricky bit is making un-wavings of light. Making time proceed in reverse.
Untock <- untick <- untock <- untick, . . . . i'm waiting . . . *
unraveling of time.

I suppose for compulsive human beings it is the ability to resist the sense of 'need' to act that might possibly set us above others.

minimalism? What are the few, precise, elegant actions of benefit,
divorced from all the romantic noise?
Can i go further & un-act?

If 911 was done as an inside job it was done exquisitely.
The people who were blamed, Al Qaeda, believe some among their number did it.
They wanted to believe they did it.
It was a modular/cellular organization, which was especially well suited to indirect belief.
The people who were victimized want to believe Al Qaeda did it, & can't even conceive that someone in their midst could have the monstrousness to do it.
Most of the available evidence seems to fit with the story.

I personally think the term 'Shock & Awe' is much more applicable to 911 than to the Iraq invasion.
do you?

The nation, the world was stunned. Shocked. & in that state of shock they didn't have the steely intellects to ask probing questions which if asked then, would have been far more fruitful.
like perfect nesting. like the hub rotates around the shaft in an axle.
Granted the axle must be tight & forever be independent & with a slippery interface with the hub. The hub is embedded yet invisible, unfelt. Perfect deflection. Perhaps not even human. like something invisible that draws material into the wake of its path. The 'creator' of events.
I suppose a dissolving hub would be even better. Like a knife of ice, that melts in later warmth.

Crippled once again, by our own lack of imagination.
I guess there is too much overhead in maintaining an imagination.
The variables are immensely reduced by reductive, base thinking.
as is the energy demand.
But there is a great deal that slips from our grasp of mind because we simply reject whole paradigms of ideas.
The frequencies we fail to 'see'/perceive.

In a weird way 'explanation' itself can become a science [art?]. Successful lying becomes the art of 'explanation' if it is probed. Science is the attempt to explain the 'positive' case from evidence whereas lying is performing any requisite 'explantion' of the 'negative' case that hopefully dovetails sufficiently with 'evidence' to not be dislodged from [reasonable] possibility. Faith/Religion is sort of the presumptive [credit?] case which IMO leans to performing any requisites of the 'negative' case.
It is easy to rationalize religion as faith that leans into an original, unperturbed lie.

If a lie is sufficiently reinforced can it become an alternative to reality?
is truth simply the best reinforced path or sequence?
the notion of 'truth' is based on the notion of determinism. that which is unambiguous, not indeterminate.
If truth were/is indeterminate it loses its Cache'. Might that imply that truth is simply the most [in]vested cache'? So maybe we are [should be] looking for the most vested cache's to preempt the 'truth'? (lol)

Interestingly 'explanation' has a lot to do with satiation. When the curiosity has been sufficiently alleviated we consider things 'explained'.
It probably says more about our mental capacities & tendencies than it probably ever does about the actual subject in question.
I suppose we are forever dependent upon those [of] insatiable curiosities for our collective growth of knowledge & information.
It is that aggravating, niggling detail that either we can't let go of or won't let go of us that compels us to inquire deeper, & in more detail.

Which aids us more, satisfaction or dissatisfaction? Probably some of both.

*I think i just recently understood Einstein's idea that it is the very alternation between the magnetic phase & electric phase of electromagnetic radiation that is, itself the tics & tocks, passage of time. Which is why if one could move/ride at the speed of light one is always on the crest, so there is no alternation between phases.

[SeedyROM]

Anyone who believes the 9/11 story automatically qualifies as the Valedictorian Magna Cum Laude of Moronic Thought.

You would have to be a moron to believe 9/11 happened as claimed.

Hillarious, hey what is Sister Cleo up to these days??? She's your speed of
Valedictorian Magna Cum Laude of Moronic Thought.:lmao2: :lmao2:

[SeedyROM]

I used to travel all over the world on business and it didn't take long to realize two things.

1. No matter how loud and how slow you say something, if someone doesn't understand the words they still can't understand.

2. The more people are trying to bullshit you any where in the world, the louder they will speak.


You're right that it wasn't an inside job but if you believe that we got the complete story and that there wasn't some cover up of events then you're as wrong as your statement above is right.

The WTC morons used construction science to explain an event. Destruction/demolition science explains the event well. The rest is math and physics.........the nutjobs use false information and flawed formulas to explain something that is over thier heads. Its all about money and deception, not answers.

[Scumbag]

Its all about money and deception, not answers.
And not just 9/11, either.

Pretty much explains just about every conspiracy claim about any event throughout the history of the country.

The saddest part is, as it always is, the stupid gullible victims of the flim-flammers will always keep on trying to insist there actually is a conspiracy, even after they are sure there is none.

Must have something to do with their pride or something!

:dunno:

[Moby]

The WTC morons used construction science to explain an event. Destruction/demolition science exlains the event well. The rest is math and physics.........the nutjobs us false information and flawed fomulas to explain something that is over thier heads. Its all about money and deception, not answers.
The strange thing is that even the engineers that I've spoken to don't understand enough about the actual data, science, math or the physics to support either side. I'm assuming that you don't have the engineering background or the data to understand the government's side or the "nutjob" side.

Remember, there is no previous examples of buildings falling like this in the history of man. That includes the third tower. It's never happened and these buildings were built to withstand exactly what happened.

You can call people nu jobs for using formulas that you claim are whack but you don't understand the science that you claim explains every thing now do you?

No, I don't believe that George W. Bush was involved with this. I do believe that there were some serious intelligence and security breaches that we don't know about and a massive cover up to save some asses.

I've yet to hear a theory that I think is 100% truthful.

[Binky]

The next president can't fix all that ails America .. because the next president, whomever he may be, will be a plutocrat. They are the only people Americans elect as presidents .. because we're stupid.

Nothing can stop the inevitably decline of this nation.



Well, you're right about one thing....the next prez. isn't going to be able to fix all that ails America. Nor the next one.

The American people have had a hand in destroying it as well. And when Bush walked in, common sense walked out. Apathy took hold and we've let it happen. Now we want to place blame....gee, go figure!

[BlackAsCoal]

Wrong only a moron believes otherwise you are brainwashed and without any intellect to believe in the inside job theories all of which have been irrefutably proven to be myth

Case in point .. moronic thought.

Pretend you have a brain and address what Bowman and a cream of the crop group of combat and civilian pilots, many studied in national security and terrorism have said.

Otherwise ...

[BlackAsCoal]

The strange thing is that even the engineers that I've spoken to don't understand enough about the actual data, science, math or the physics to support either side. I'm assuming that you don't have the engineering background or the data to understand the government's side or the "nutjob" side.

Remember, there is no previous examples of buildings falling like this in the history of man. That includes the third tower. It's never happened and these buildings were built to withstand exactly what happened.

You can call people nu jobs for using formulas that you claim are whack but you don't understand the science that you claim explains every thing now do you?

No, I don't believe that George W. Bush was involved with this. I do believe that there were some serious intelligence and security breaches that we don't know about and a massive cover up to save some asses.

I've yet to hear a theory that I think is 100% truthful.

Again, you cannot "not prevent" or "allow" the impossible to happen .. three times in the same day.

[BlackAsCoal]

Of course it was a contrived event it was contrived by foreign terrorists and no one else.

Stupid .. real stupid.

Do you believe that "foreign terrorists" who can't fly a Cessna, trained on simulators, can climb behind the cockpit of large heavy aircraft and fly them flawlessly, and in fact, execute manuevers that combat pilots couldn't make?

Just one of about a 1000 questions .. you can't answer.

[SeedyROM]

And not just 9/11, either.

Pretty much explains just about every conspiracy claim about any event throughout the history of the country.

The saddest part is, as it always is, the stupid gullible victims of the flim-flammers will always keep on trying to insist there actually is a conspiracy, even after they are sure there is none.

Must have something to do with their pride or something!

:dunno:

Agreed!! There daddy's slapped'em in the face with the nutsack, the rest is history. CTNutters will always be CTNutters!!!:lmao2:

[SeedyROM]

The strange thing is that even the engineers that I've spoken to don't understand enough about the actual data, science, math or the physics to support either side. I'm assuming that you don't have the engineering background or the data to understand the government's side or the "nutjob" side.

Remember, there is no previous examples of buildings falling like this in the history of man. That includes the third tower. It's never happened and these buildings were built to withstand exactly what happened.

You can call people nu jobs for using formulas that you claim are whack but you don't understand the science that you claim explains every thing now do you?

No, I don't believe that George W. Bush was involved with this. I do believe that there were some serious intelligence and security breaches that we don't know about and a massive cover up to save some asses.

I've yet to hear a theory that I think is 100% truthful.

Find a Demolition engineer or a website that uses the correct information to explain how a 800,000 pound jet going 500mph crashing into a builing changed its physics forever. The towers had an exo-skeleton design that distributed the building weight to the outside structure of the building. I have enough math and physics education to understand what we all know to be true. The FEd may not have done thebest job explaining 9/11 but they had more important issues to deal with than listen to wackos and waste time and money debateing lunatics hellebent on making money and decieving the public. As for those who actually believe the CTNutter crap, well some people will believe anything.

The nutjobs always try to insert thier crap theories into threads that have nothing to do with the thread subject. My apologies for adding your name to the nutjob list! I said I think you might be, but I only did it to stir up the CTNutters and show HG whom he is debating.

"strange thing is that even the engineers that I've spoken to don't understand enough about the actual data, science, math or the physics to support either side" The reason most engineers never take a side is they lack the education to really get into the details. It takes a Demo-engineer to truely esplain. Problem is that in order to repeat/recreate the event, we'd need a fully fueled Boing 767 and a building built the same way as WTC. There are a couple of similar yet smaller buildings around NYC and other areas. But those buildings have a far more important use than educating morons as to the truth. Destroying a plane and building would result in the destruction of other surrounding structures. Maybe one day the CTNutters will buy a building and jet to re-create the event.........no no way, greed is far superior and more important than the truth.

The buildings were built to hold a limited/fixed amount of weight per floor. No floor was built to withstand a 500mph impact and the weight of a 800,000 pound jet. You and I do not need another degree to understand what other legitmate engineers have already explained.

[SeedyROM]

Stupid .. real stupid.

Do you believe that "foreign terrorists" who can't fly a Cessna, trained on simulators, can climb behind the cockpit of large heavy aircraft and fly them flawlessly, and in fact, execute manuevers that combat pilots couldn't make?

Just one of about a 1000 questions .. you can't answer.

This is all you do, attack rather than debate, maybe you should reframe from hate and stereotypes and maybe then people will take you more seriously. But not on the 9/11 event. Combat pilots can and have recreated the flights.
The CTNutter pilots are exploiting for money, they have no crediblility.

[BlackAsCoal]

This is all you do, attack rather than debate, maybe you should reframe from hate and stereotypes and maybe then people will take you more seriously. But not on the 9/11 event. Combat pilots can and have recreated the flights.
The CTNutter pilots are exploiting for money, they have no crediblility.

Let's put that theory to a test.

The Law of Falling Objects is science.

Explain how a steel frame structure, supposedly weakened by fire, and in the case of WTC7, small fires, can uniformly collapse into their own footprints at free fall speed.

The Law of Falling Objects says that cannot occur .. in fact, there is no science whatsoever that says it can .. and in fact, neither the 9/11 Commission, nor FEMA ever decided how it was even possible for WTC7 tro collapse in the manner it did.

You can prove your argument by provding ONE example of a steel-frame building collapsing in the manner these did 3 times in the same day .. anytime in the history of MAN.

To bolster my argument ... the Madrid Fire

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/spain_fire22a.jpg

This fire burned out of control for more than 24 hours

http://www.arup.com/_assets/_img/image5652.gif

When the fire was out the building still stood .. as has ALWAYS happened. Even the large heavy construction crane on top of the building is still there.

But you believe this caused a building to melt .. uniformly ..

http://www.wtc7.net/docs/fig_5_19_s.jpg

Notice I did not have to use profanity nor call you any name to make my point.

... your move

[Scumbag]

Let's put that theory to a test.

The Law of Falling Objects is science.Yes, a science which deals with objects falling in the atmosphere where the atmosphere is the objects' only resistance, not buildings collapsing onto themselves. That Law does not apply in this case.

Explain how a steel frame structure, supposedly weakened by fire, and in the case of WTC7, small fires, can uniformly collapse into their own footprints at free fall speed.Here you go! http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc082108.html

Btw, It has never been claimed by any reputable scientific source that WTC7 collapsed at "freefall speed". Freefall is defined as an object falling, unrestricted by anything else other than by the atmosphere it is falling into.



The Law of Falling Objects says that cannot occur .. in fact, there is no science whatsoever that says it can .. and in fact, neither the 9/11 Commission, nor FEMA ever decided how it was even possible for WTC7 tro collapse in the manner it did.

A. The Law of Falling Objects does not apply in this case because a collapsing building is not a falling object.

B. Neither The 9/11 Commission nor FEMA were charged with explaining why the buildings collapsed. The 9/11 Commission (http://www.9-11commission.gov/) "is chartered to prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, including preparedness for and the immediate response to the attacks. The Commission is also mandated to provide recommendations designed to guard against future attacks". FEMA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Emergency_Management_Agency) "is to coordinate the response to a disaster which has occurred in the United States and which overwhelms the resources of local and state authorities."

The NIST (http://wtc.nist.gov/) report was chartered to explain what caused the buildings to collapse. Whether you believe the report or not is irrelevant. The report was completed after years of research by eminently better qualified people than a bunch of ex-pilots and mathematicians who had no access to the collected evidence or salient facts surrounding the events.

You can prove your argument by provding ONE example of a steel-frame building collapsing in the manner these did 3 times in the same day .. anytime in the history of MAN.The fact that these events had never occured before does not disprove that it happened. What a typically stupid statement.


:crazzy:

[Independent Harry]

Yes, a science which deals with objects falling in the atmosphere where the atmosphere is the objects' only resistance, not buildings collapsing onto themselves. That Law does not apply in this case.

Here you go! http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc082108.html

Btw, It has never been claimed by any reputable scientific source that WTC7 collapsed at "freefall speed". Freefall is defined as an object falling, unrestricted by anything else other than by the atmosphere it is falling into.





A. The Law of Falling Objects does not apply in this case because a collapsing building is not a falling object.

B. Neither The 9/11 Commission nor FEMA were charged with explaining why the buildings collapsed. The 9/11 Commission (http://www.9-11commission.gov/) "is chartered to prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, including preparedness for and the immediate response to the attacks. The Commission is also mandated to provide recommendations designed to guard against future attacks". FEMA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Emergency_Management_Agency) "is to coordinate the response to a disaster which has occurred in the United States and which overwhelms the resources of local and state authorities."

The NIST (http://wtc.nist.gov/) report was chartered to explain what caused the buildings to collapse. Whether you believe the report or not is irrelevant. The report was completed after years of research by eminently better qualified people than a bunch of ex-pilots and mathematicians who had no access to the collected evidence or salient facts surrounding the events.

The fact that these events had never occured before does not disprove that it happened. What a typically stupid statement.


:crazzy:

The fact that they have never happened before does not disprove, but it brings into question. As well, the top of the building is a falling object. To say a building collapsing is not a falling object is assinine. The building did fall at bascially free fall speeds.

The NIST report documets the fall speeds. They are tenths of a second off free fall speeds. Something falling through gravity is something falling through gravity. FOr them to fall at that "unrestricted" speed. All the support below the top of teh building had to have been removed from beneath it as they collapsed...tool.

[Independent Harry]

— By Alan Miller Aug 22, 2007

James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), has called for an independent review of NIST's investigation into the collapses of the World Trade Center Towers on 9/11.

Original Content at www.opednews.com

Dr. Quintiere made his plea during his presentation, "Questions on the WTC Investigations" at the 2007 World Fire Safety Conference. "I wish that there would be a peer review of this," he said, referring to the NIST investigation. "I think all the records that NIST has assembled should be archived. I would really like to see someone else take a look at what they've done; both structurally and from a fire point of view."

"I think the official conclusion that NIST arrived at is questionable," explained Dr. Quintiere. "Let's look at real alternatives that might have been the cause of the collapse of the World Trade Towers and how that relates to the official cause and what's the significance of one cause versus another."

Dr. Quintiere, one of the world's leading fire science researchers and safety engineers, also encouraged his audience of fellow researchers and engineers to scientifically re-examine the WTC collapses. "I hope to convince you to perhaps become 'Conspiracy Theorists', but in a proper way," he said.

http://mosnas2.blogspot.com/2007/09/former-chief-of-nists-fire-science.html

[Moby]

The reason most engineers never take a side is they lack the education to really get into the details. It takes a Demo-engineer to truely esplain.
That may be true but I don't know. I can read one web site from the wackos and they make claims about the formulas being used in the explanation as being false and I honestly don't which one to believe.

I've talked to two guys that blew shit up for the military like bridges but no one that has demolished a building of this size. I've talked to a few mathematicians and some nuclear physicists as well but you're right, they also haven't blown up any buildings this large.

Many have claimed that the formulas that you're reading are wrong but that it doesn't mean it couldn't take the building down. They just point out that the information you're getting is wrong. Some agree with the government but didn't actually know the numbers when asked and others are the nutjobs as you call them.

Personally I don't think you have the background to understand this type of demolition theory and attacking people as nut jobs is your way of deflecting. However, I could be wrong so I won't call you a lying sack of shit in this thread since it's more of a gut feeling. I tend to have that with everyone that thinks they know a lot about what happened.

[BlackAsCoal]

Yes, a science which deals with objects falling in the atmosphere where the atmosphere is the objects' only resistance, not buildings collapsing onto themselves. That Law does not apply in this case.

Here you go! http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc082108.html

Btw, It has never been claimed by any reputable scientific source that WTC7 collapsed at "freefall speed". Freefall is defined as an object falling, unrestricted by anything else other than by the atmosphere it is falling into.

A. The Law of Falling Objects does not apply in this case because a collapsing building is not a falling object.

B. Neither The 9/11 Commission nor FEMA were charged with explaining why the buildings collapsed. The 9/11 Commission (http://www.9-11commission.gov/) "is chartered to prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, including preparedness for and the immediate response to the attacks. The Commission is also mandated to provide recommendations designed to guard against future attacks". FEMA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Emergency_Management_Agency) "is to coordinate the response to a disaster which has occurred in the United States and which overwhelms the resources of local and state authorities."

The NIST (http://wtc.nist.gov/) report was chartered to explain what caused the buildings to collapse. Whether you believe the report or not is irrelevant. The report was completed after years of research by eminently better qualified people than a bunch of ex-pilots and mathematicians who had no access to the collected evidence or salient facts surrounding the events.

The fact that these events had never occured before does not disprove that it happened. What a typically stupid statement.

:crazzy:

Regarding the NIST Report ..

According to the report, the collapse of WTC7 was "primarily due to fires" and it was also "was the first known instance of fire causing the total collapse of a tall building" .. which is exactly what I said. I even provided the picture from the FEMA report to show the relatively small fires.

The question any serious person would have to ask .. is it believable that small fires collapse tall buildings into their own footprint? Building fires are not uncommon. They probably happen all over the world on a daily basis, yet no building has EVER collapsed from fire, not even very large fires. That includes not only the Madrid fire, but fires like at One Meridian Place in Philadelphia .. a skysraper that burned for 18 hours.

The report claims the small fires were fueled by "debris", not oil, not explosives .. "debris"

None of that is believable .. cannot be reproduced.

The FEMA report on WTC7 also said fires probably brought down the building, then concluded, “the best hypothesis” along these lines “has only a low probability of occurrence.”

You claim WTC7 did not fall at free fall speed, but it collapsed in about 6seconds.

Here is the calculation for free fall speed ..

Displacement = initial velocity * total time + 1/2 * acceleration *
total time^2

or

s = ut + 1/2at^2 where
s = 174 m (height of building)
u = 0 m/s (building was stationary prior to collapse)
a = 9.8 m/s^2 (since gravitational field strengh averages at
a constant)

Thus, 174 = 0 t + 1/2 9.8 t^2

Solving for t .. t = sqrt( 2 * 174 / 9. = 5.9590 seconds

OR calculate it yourself
http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/Free-Fall-Calculator-Download-68790.html

Did WTC7 collapse at free fall speed?
http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DMl_n5gJgQ_U

.. and here's where the Law of Falling Objects and the Law of Motion apply .. free fall speed assumes no air and no resistance just as this science has demonstrated. If WTC7 fell in about 6 seconds, it fell at free fall, which demonstrates there is something seriously wrong with NIST conclusions .. which by the way, did not mention finding sulfur residue on steel whcih was included in Section C of the FEMA report.

"Evidence of a severe high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation with subsequent intergranular melting, was readily visible in the near-surface microstructure. A liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot corrosion attack on the steel… The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 are a very unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified."

No small oversight bt any means.

It collapsed EXACTLY as if it was imploded with the top buckling inward so the outer walls collapse on top of the roof, thus falling into its own footprint.

The 9/11 story defies the laws of physics.

.. and don't be stupid, the pilots never claimed to study oir know what brought the towers down and no one has suggeted that. However, they are eminently qualified to talk about aviation .. which is exactly what they did.

Here is the really stupid .. "The fact that these events had never occured before does not disprove that it happened. What a typically stupid statement."

The fact that iot never happened before because it is scientifically impossible to happen does indeed indicate a problem.

[Scumbag]

The fact that they have never happened before does not disprove, but it brings into question. I never questioned that. I questioned that the fact that it never happened before does not disprove that it could have happened.

As well, the top of the building is a falling object. Really? Please explain! To say a building collapsing is not a falling object is assinine. Why? A falling object, in proving the theory of the Law of Falling Objects, says that the object, immediately prior to falling, is suspended above the atmosphere it is about to fall into. This does not include any number of floors below it. The building did fall at bascially free fall speeds.Says who?

The NIST report documets the fall speeds. They are tenths of a second off free fall speeds. Something falling through gravity is something falling through gravity. FOr them to fall at that "unrestricted" speed. All the support below the top of teh building had to have been removed from beneath it as they collapsed...tool.what? Are you saying that the WTC7 fell "unrestricted" and that the bottom of the building was "removed"???

Crawl back into your hole, junior!

You are way out of your depth!



:hammer: Idiot!

[Soupnazi]

Case in point .. moronic thought.

Pretend you have a brain and address what Bowman and a cream of the crop group of combat and civilian pilots, many studied in national security and terrorism have said.

Otherwise ...

Wrong little boy the morons are those preaching what you preach the FACT is every professional pilot states you are a fool and wrong you have no pilots supporting you

[Soupnazi]

Stupid .. real stupid.

Do you believe that "foreign terrorists" who can't fly a Cessna, trained on simulators, can climb behind the cockpit of large heavy aircraft and fly them flawlessly, and in fact, execute manuevers that combat pilots couldn't make?

Just one of about a 1000 questions .. you can't answer.

Yes I can answer it and you are wrong they could indeed fly cessnas or a large airliner the principles are the same little boy. Second they performed no difficult maneuvers and any combat pilot could have easily done what they did all combat pilots agree with that fact sorry you have nothing.

[Soupnazi]

Let's put that theory to a test.

The Law of Falling Objects is science.

Explain how a steel frame structure, supposedly weakened by fire, and in the case of WTC7, small fires, can uniformly collapse into their own footprints at free fall speed.

The Law of Falling Objects says that cannot occur .. in fact, there is no science whatsoever that says it can .. and in fact, neither the 9/11 Commission, nor FEMA ever decided how it was even possible for WTC7 tro collapse in the manner it did.

You can prove your argument by provding ONE example of a steel-frame building collapsing in the manner these did 3 times in the same day .. anytime in the history of MAN.

To bolster my argument ... the Madrid Fire

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/spain_fire22a.jpg

This fire burned out of control for more than 24 hours

http://www.arup.com/_assets/_img/image5652.gif

When the fire was out the building still stood .. as has ALWAYS happened. Even the large heavy construction crane on top of the building is still there.

But you believe this caused a building to melt .. uniformly ..

http://www.wtc7.net/docs/fig_5_19_s.jpg

Notice I did not have to use profanity nor call you any name to make my point.

... your move
The buildings in your pictures were not even close to the same size or constructed the same as WTC or even WTC 7 therefore your question is an attempt to compare apples and oranges like comparing a helicopter crash to a an airplane collision.

BTW I just checked a couple of physics textbooks and cannot find a law " of falling objects"

[BlackAsCoal]

Wrong little boy the morons are those preaching what you preach the FACT is every professional pilot states you are a fool and wrong you have no pilots supporting you

:lmao2:

Damn, you stupid motherfuckers are funny as hell. That's why I come here .. for the comedy. ;)

Uhh .. Mr. Soupnazi .. I couldn't help but notice that all you have to offer in this discussion is my-mommy-isn't-home child-speak .. no critical thinking

... and Mr. Soupnazi .. perhaps your dumb ass should actually READ the thread before you comment on it because if you had actually READ the thread you would know there are lots of pilots, including combat pilots who do not believe the fairy tale.

... but by all means .. do come again. ;)

[Soupnazi]

:lmao2:

Damn, you stupid motherfuckers are funny as hell. That's why I come here .. for the comedy. ;)

Uhh .. Mr. Soupnazi .. I couldn't help but notice that all you have to offer in this discussion is my-mommy-isn't-home child-speak .. no critical thinking

... and Mr. Soupnazi .. perhaps your dumb ass should actually READ the thread before you comment on it because if you had actually READ the thread you would know there are lots of pilots, including combat pilots who do not believe the fairy tale.

... but by all means .. do come again. ;)

You are the one insisting on starting out by calling anyone a moron if they do not agree with your simplistic thinking and ere is a fact YOU have failed to offer a shred of credible evidence for ay of your claims.

Few if any pilots agree with you and there are millions of them world wide all calling you wrong. Even if a handful did agree with you it is meaningless one does not even have to be a pilot to comprehend how wrong you are. Get this straight AIRPLANES ( as opposed to helicopters) are easy to fly . There are three difficult parts , they are: taking off , landing and flying in inclement weather ( which includes night time). The terrorists had none of those three problems to worry about. Anyone with BASIC comprehension of aircraft gets it it was EASY for them to fly those planes into buildings and any so called pilot who disagrees has an agenda and is dishonest.

Science which you lack any comprehension of proves you wrong.

Laws of human nature prove you wrong

Not one witness supports you they all prove you wrong.

So what do you have? a tabloid story as I said before . You have absence of evidence as evidence you have circular reasoning and dubious statements from unverifiable self proclaimed experts.

[Soupnazi]

:lmao2:

Damn, you stupid motherfuckers are funny as hell. That's why I come here .. for the comedy. ;)

Uhh .. Mr. Soupnazi .. I couldn't help but notice that all you have to offer in this discussion is my-mommy-isn't-home child-speak .. no critical thinking

... and Mr. Soupnazi .. perhaps your dumb ass should actually READ the thread before you comment on it because if you had actually READ the thread you would know there are lots of pilots, including combat pilots who do not believe the fairy tale.

... but by all means .. do come again. ;)
Other intelligent posters here have also pointed out obvious fact among them that conspiracy theorists are merely out to make a busk by lying and creating fiction.

As i mentioned n my last post you ignore human nature which also proves you wrong and all conspiracy theorists make the same mistake.

Human beings have a very difficult time keeping secrets most of the time one person will not be able to keep any secret for long. There are criminals in prison for this very reason. Whether by luck or good planning they would have gotten away with a crime but they had to tell their preacher, or bartender, or significant other or just anyone who would listen and so they talked their way into jail.

Two people can keep a secret ONLY if one of them is dead. Three or more people will never keep one and in fact the more people know about a secret the shorter the life expectancy of the secret. Anyone who has ever been hurt in some way by a rumor knows this to be true ( and that's all of us)

And yet all conspiracy theories ignore these facts . By now everyone and there brother has been implicated in JFKs assasination . He was shot by the CIA, the FBI ,the Secret service , the military industrial complex, the KGB, the cubans, The vietnamese , the mafia , the mossad , the freemasons, and maybe the boy scouts. Yet somehow none of the individuals have been identified no members have come forward to write a tell all book and explain the mystery, or asked for immunity in exchange for testimony.

The exact same problem destroys your 911 conspiracy theories . For such an undertaking to have been accomplished would have required the involvement of thousands all of whom have some how kept their lips zipped. And this IS an impossiblility. Nor can you dodge by saying that those involved were silenced by being killed sorry but that is also impossible since to do so would have required thousands of assassins killing them and then THEY would have to be killed and on and on. Such murders would not go unnoticed and would have been highly publicized and again involves more and more people to be involved.

This is why watergate failed. The same government which YOU claimed conspired to stage 911 and blame someone else could NOT succeed in pulling off a successful third rate hotel burglary and in attempting to do so destroyed a president.

[Scumbag]

That may be true but I don't know. I can read one web site from the wackos and they make claims about the formulas being used in the explanation as being false and I honestly don't which one to believe.

I've talked to two guys that blew shit up for the military like bridges but no one that has demolished a building of this size. I've talked to a few mathematicians and some nuclear physicists as well but you're right, they also haven't blown up any buildings this large.

Many have claimed that the formulas that you're reading are wrong but that it doesn't mean it couldn't take the building down. They just point out that the information you're getting is wrong. Some agree with the government but didn't actually know the numbers when asked and others are the nutjobs as you call them.

Personally I don't think you have the background to understand this type of demolition theory and attacking people as nut jobs is your way of deflecting. However, I could be wrong so I won't call you a lying sack of shit in this thread since it's more of a gut feeling. I tend to have that with everyone that thinks they know a lot about what happened.You write a lot and yet you say nothing!

Personally, seeing as you seem to be uncertain of what really happened, I think you're like most people and are looking for answers in the things that people post on websites. Try examining your own self and decide whether or not you believe government agencies planted explosives in the WTC7 building (along with the North & South Towers) with the intention of demolishing them and then ask yourself, is that the way it actually happened?

[BlackAsCoal]

The buildings in your pictures were not even close to the same size or constructed the same as WTC or even WTC 7 therefore your question is an attempt to compare apples and oranges like comparing a helicopter crash to a an airplane collision.

BTW I just checked a couple of physics textbooks and cannot find a law " of falling objects"

SEE: Law of Falling Bodies

The Madrid Tower was much taller than WTC7

There is a very good reason why no building has ever melted as supposedly happened on 9/11 .. because it isn't possible.

Even if a building was melting from a fire .. wouldn't that be a localized weakening .. especially in a large building? Wouldn't that localized weakening cause the building to tilt to one side if it was going to fall at all?

The twin towers fell in about 10 seconds near free fall speed .. just as WTC7 .. as if there was no resistance to the collapse .. into their own footprint .. never before in history .. 3 times in the same day

Planes have hit tall buildings before, never melted, and in fact, they design tall buildings to withstand impacts from planes.

The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it... I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners...

- Frank A. DeMartini, Manager, WTC Construction & Project Management, 25 Jan 2001

Additionally, there were no "raging fires" in any of the buildings. The fires in towers 1 and 2, quickly went out .. because they were fueled by jet fuel .. basically kerosene .. which requires lots of air and space to burn.

http://www.911truth.dk/first/img/wtcFires.jpg

http://www.911truth.dk/first/img/wtcNorthFire.jpg

" .. it is believed that almost all of the jet fuel that remained on the impact floors was consumed in the first few minutes of the fire."

-- FEMA: World Trade Center Building Performance Study

The picture I posted of the small WTC7 fires, fueled by "debris", is even more incredible to believe could melt a building.

If these were the only unanswered questions and strange anomalies of 9/11 that would be one thing, but there are thousands of questions and many strange anomalies about almost everything that occured and the adminstration's response to it.

[Scumbag]

Regarding the NIST Report ..

According to the report, the collapse of WTC7 was "primarily due to fires" and it was also "was the first known instance of fire causing the total collapse of a tall building" .. which is exactly what I said. I even provided the picture from the FEMA report to show the relatively small fires.You showed a photo of the East side of the building. Here is a photo of the South West side of the building also showing a small fire!
http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911_files/image001.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i268/representativepress/WTC7Fire.jpg

Here is another photo of the Small fire at WTC7!

[BlackAsCoal]

You are the one insisting on starting out by calling anyone a moron if they do not agree with your simplistic thinking and ere is a fact YOU have failed to offer a shred of credible evidence for ay of your claims.

Few if any pilots agree with you and there are millions of them world wide all calling you wrong. Even if a handful did agree with you it is meaningless one does not even have to be a pilot to comprehend how wrong you are. Get this straight AIRPLANES ( as opposed to helicopters) are easy to fly . There are three difficult parts , they are: taking off , landing and flying in inclement weather ( which includes night time). The terrorists had none of those three problems to worry about. Anyone with BASIC comprehension of aircraft gets it it was EASY for them to fly those planes into buildings and any so called pilot who disagrees has an agenda and is dishonest.

Science which you lack any comprehension of proves you wrong.

Laws of human nature prove you wrong

Not one witness supports you they all prove you wrong.

So what do you have? a tabloid story as I said before . You have absence of evidence as evidence you have circular reasoning and dubious statements from unverifiable self proclaimed experts.

WOW .. that's deep.

Planes are easy to fly .. large heavy aircraft .. easy to fly.

"Laws of human nature prove me wrong" .. WOW .. laws of human nature prove me right .. and so does American history .. USS Maine, Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin .. just to name a few. Laws of human nature clearly illustrate that humans need checks and balances and laws to control us.

"Science proves me wrong" .. please point out the science that demonstrates that tall buildings melting from small fires fall at free fall speed .. and I can, as I already have, point out the science that says they cannot.

Again, all you have is prose .. maybe you should be a poet ..

[BlackAsCoal]

You showed a photo of the East side of the building. Here is a photo of the South West side of the building also showing a small fire!

Here is another photo of the Small fire at WTC7![/CENTER]

The clouds of smoke you see in your photos are coming from the collapes of the twin towers, not from WTC7.

What your pictures show is smoke, not fire.

The north face at 3pm
http://www.thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/wtc7/wtc7_nypd2001.jpg

The east face at 2pm
http://www.thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/wtc7/wtc7_ss2001.jpg

Just a few comparisons to further dispell your belief that other building fires were not as tall as WTC7

38 story One Meridian Plaza
http://www.thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/wtc7/meridianplaza_fire.jpg

First Interstate Bank
http://www.thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/wtc7/firstinterstate_fire.jpg

They performed exactly as the Windsor Tower and ALL other buildings have to fire, even when consumed by fire .. which none of the WTC buildings were.

If you believe that steel-frame buildings melt when there is no evidence, science, or history to suggest that is even possible .. I respect your right to believe that bullshit.

[BlackAsCoal]

Other intelligent posters here have also pointed out obvious fact among them that conspiracy theorists are merely out to make a busk by lying and creating fiction.

As i mentioned n my last post you ignore human nature which also proves you wrong and all conspiracy theorists make the same mistake.

Human beings have a very difficult time keeping secrets most of the time one person will not be able to keep any secret for long. There are criminals in prison for this very reason. Whether by luck or good planning they would have gotten away with a crime but they had to tell their preacher, or bartender, or significant other or just anyone who would listen and so they talked their way into jail.

Two people can keep a secret ONLY if one of them is dead. Three or more people will never keep one and in fact the more people know about a secret the shorter the life expectancy of the secret. Anyone who has ever been hurt in some way by a rumor knows this to be true ( and that's all of us)

And yet all conspiracy theories ignore these facts . By now everyone and there brother has been implicated in JFKs assasination . He was shot by the CIA, the FBI ,the Secret service , the military industrial complex, the KGB, the cubans, The vietnamese , the mafia , the mossad , the freemasons, and maybe the boy scouts. Yet somehow none of the individuals have been identified no members have come forward to write a tell all book and explain the mystery, or asked for immunity in exchange for testimony.

The exact same problem destroys your 911 conspiracy theories . For such an undertaking to have been accomplished would have required the involvement of thousands all of whom have some how kept their lips zipped. And this IS an impossiblility. Nor can you dodge by saying that those involved were silenced by being killed sorry but that is also impossible since to do so would have required thousands of assassins killing them and then THEY would have to be killed and on and on. Such murders would not go unnoticed and would have been highly publicized and again involves more and more people to be involved.

This is why watergate failed. The same government which YOU claimed conspired to stage 911 and blame someone else could NOT succeed in pulling off a successful third rate hotel burglary and in attempting to do so destroyed a president.


A. The same government involved in Watergate is noit the same government in power today. Dumb comment.

B. Everyone who participated in the fraud did not have to know the purpose of what they were doing .. AND, do you have any clue how many gag orders have been issued since 9/11? Prior to 9/11 gag orders were issued at about 20 a year .. between 9/11 and 2005, 143,000 gag orders have been issued .. all with a 5 year sentence hanging over the head of anyone who dare speak. There are gag orders on employees of the FBI, CIA, FAA, NYPD, and NYFD, among others regarding 9/11.

Saddam does not have WMD and the Bush Administration is lying. .. that was a conspiracy theory .. is it still?

We knew the Japanese were about to attack Pearl Harbor and we let it happen .. conspiracy theory?

The "Rescue" of Jessica Lynch is a fraud .. conspiracy theory? .. ask Jessica Lynch

The toppling of Saddam's statue was a fraud .. conspiracy theory?

The administration is lying about the death of Pat Tillman ..?

Downing Street Memo

Niger "yellow cake" is bullshit .. ?

The US Public Health Service is using black people to test horrible diseases on and allowing their partners and children to be subsequently infected .. ?

Project MKULTRA .. ?
Operation AJAX ..?
COINTELPRO ..?
Bay of Pigs ..?
Operation Mongoose (Cuban Project) .. ?
Operation Northwoods .. ? .. of particular interst to this discussion
Watergate
Iran-Contra
Secret CIA prisons
We're torturing people

All conspiracy theories proven true .. in fact, ALL criminal investigations begin as conspiracy theories.

[Scumbag]

The clouds of smoke you see in your photos are coming from the collapes of the twin towers, not from WTC7.

What your pictures show is smoke, not fire.

The north face at 3pm
http://www.thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/wtc7/wtc7_nypd2001.jpg

The east face at 2pm
http://www.thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/wtc7/wtc7_ss2001.jpg

You keep posting photos of other buildings on fire and saying it proves WTC7 was demolished by intention.

Here are the facts surrounding the actual collapse by people who were actually there.
I choose to believe them. None of it is bullshit.

At 10:29 a.m., WTC 1 (the north tower) collapsed and contrary to the claims of 9/11 conspiracy people, it did not collapse into its footprint like a controlled explosion. (See the diagram) Instead, as the building collapsed, the debris from WTC 1 spilled into the surrounding streets and onto WTC 7 among others, damaging the building. (See the diagram to the left showing the debris in black which extended north beyond WTC 6).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK9MmoVaO5U&feature=PlayList&p=7B30D07D22F4F8F3&index=0&playnext=1

Eyewitness accounts from firemen such as Captain Chris Boyle and Deputy Chief Peter Hayden and photographic evidence back this up. It is the south side of WTC 7 that was damaged and it is likely that the fires (see figures 5-16 and 5-17) started as a result of debris from the collapse of WTC 1, the fires in WTC 7 started at approximately the same time as the collapse of WTC 1 and it is the fires that are primarily the reason the WTC 7 building collapsed. Most 9/11 conspiracy people only show you the east side and north side of the WTC 7.

Reports from the scene mention the damage:
Captain Chris Boyle
Engine 94 - 18 years

Boyle: ... on the north and east side of 7 it didn't look like there was any damage at all,
but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn't look good.
... Then we received an order from Fellini, we're going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn't look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn't really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I'm standing next to said, that building doesn't look straight. So I'm standing there. I'm looking at the building. It didn't look right, but, well, we'll go in, we'll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody's going into 7, there's creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.

Firehouse: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?

Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.

Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we'll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyle.html

Fire chief Daniel Nigro clearly thought the building could collapse. Here's why:

The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create
a collapse zone around the severely damaged [WTC Building 7].
A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the
building. The appraisals indicated that the building's integrity
was in serious doubt.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?id=1521846767-634

Another fireman reported damage that progressed as the day wore on.

Deputy Chief Peter Hayden
Division 1 - 33 years

Hayden: ... also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse.
Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o'clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o'clock in the afternoon we realized
this thing was going to collapse.

Firehouse: Was there heavy fire in there right away?

Hayden: No, not right away, and that's probably why it stood for so long because it took awhile for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn't make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there. We were worried about additional collapse there of what was remaining standing of the towers and the Marriott, so we started pulling the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to pull guys back because we were concerned for their safety.

Firehouse: Chief Nigro said they made a collapse zone and wanted everybody away from number 7 - did you have to get all of those people out?

Hayden: Yeah, we had to pull everybody back. It was very difficult. We had to be very forceful in getting the guys out. They didn't want to come out. There were guys going into areas that I wasn't even really comfortable with, because of the possibility of secondary collapses. We didn't know how stable any of this area was. We pulled everybody back probably by 3 or 3:30 in the afternoon. We said, this building is going to come down, get back. It came down about 5 o'clock or so, but we had everybody backed away by then.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/hayden.html

Most 9/11 conspiracy people only show you the east side and north side of WTC 7 but it is the south side of the building that was damaged by the debris from WTC 1 and it is the west side of the building where the smoke was pouring out of. (see figures 5-16 and 5-17)

"at the edge of the south face you could see that it was very heavily damaged. ... until you had done either a couple of 360s around this whole site or if you got an aerial view somehow, you really couldn’t appreciate the scope of the damage." - Battalion Chief John Norman
Special Operations Command - 22 years

More eyewitness accounts from firemen and photographic evidence (Reports from the scene mention the damage):

Deputy Chief Nick Visconti
Division 14 - 34 years

Visconti: So now I was in contact with Jay. I found out what kind of shape he was in and I kept getting reports back from people that we're not there yet, we're working our way, there's a collapsed area in 6. I'm standing not too far from Frank Fellini. He says, Nick, I'm really worried about this building. We were all worried because there was a lot of fire in it and we were concerned about the building collapsing. We weren't sure that it was stable enough that it wasn't going to collapse.

Firehouse: Which building was that?

Visconti: Building 6. So I had put a battalion chief with each of the groups that went into 6. I kept trying to talk to him, walking over there, walking down a little bit into the ramp they went down, the door they went down into and how are you doing? You know we're trying, we can't find it. I don't know how long this was going on, but I remember standing there looking over at building 7 and realizing that a big chunk of the lower floors had been taken out on the Vesey Street side. I looked up at the building and I saw smoke in it, but I really didn't see any fire at that time. ...

Now, World Trade Center 7 was burning and I was thinking to myself, how come they're not trying to put this fire out? I didn't realize how much they had because my view was obstructed. All I could see was the upper floor. At some point, Frank Fellini said, now we've got hundreds of guys out there, hundreds and hundreds, and that's on the West Street side alone. He said to me, Nick, you've got to get those people out of there. I thought to myself, out of where? Frank, what do you want, Chief? He answered, 7 World Trade Center, imminent collapse, we've got to get those people out of there. I walked out and I got to Vesey and West, where I reported to Frank. He said, we're moving the command post over this way, that building's coming down.

At this point, the fire was going virtually on every floor, heavy
fire and smoke that really wasn't bothering us when we were searching
because it was being pushed southeast and we were a little bit west
of that. I remember standing just where West and Vesey start to rise
toward the entrance we were using in the World Financial Center. There
were a couple of guys standing with me and a couple of guys right at
the intersection, and we were trying to back them up and here goes
7. It started to come down and now people were starting to run.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/visconti.html


http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_damage.html
http://www.geocities.com/factsnotfantasy/WTC7Page2.html


WTC 7 Fire "A video taken from another angle shows conclusively that this really is smoke coming from WTC7"
Download it here (http://www.911myths.com/WTC7_Smoke.avi)

http://representativepress.blogspot.com/2006/09/wtc-7-was-severely-damaged-on-south.html

[Soupnazi]

SEE: Law of Falling Bodies

The Madrid Tower was much taller than WTC7

There is a very good reason why no building has ever melted as supposedly happened on 9/11 .. because it isn't possible.

Even if a building was melting from a fire .. wouldn't that be a localized weakening .. especially in a large building? Wouldn't that localized weakening cause the building to tilt to one side if it was going to fall at all?

The twin towers fell in about 10 seconds near free fall speed .. just as WTC7 .. as if there was no resistance to the collapse .. into their own footprint .. never before in history .. 3 times in the same day

Planes have hit tall buildings before, never melted, and in fact, they design tall buildings to withstand impacts from planes.

The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it... I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners...

- Frank A. DeMartini, Manager, WTC Construction & Project Management, 25 Jan 2001

Additionally, there were no "raging fires" in any of the buildings. The fires in towers 1 and 2, quickly went out .. because they were fueled by jet fuel .. basically kerosene .. which requires lots of air and space to burn.

http://www.911truth.dk/first/img/wtcFires.jpg

http://www.911truth.dk/first/img/wtcNorthFire.jpg

" .. it is believed that almost all of the jet fuel that remained on the impact floors was consumed in the first few minutes of the fire."

-- FEMA: World Trade Center Building Performance Study

The picture I posted of the small WTC7 fires, fueled by "debris", is even more incredible to believe could melt a building.

If these were the only unanswered questions and strange anomalies of 9/11 that would be one thing, but there are thousands of questions and many strange anomalies about almost everything that occured and the adminstration's response to it.

You are repeating the lie which all such conspiracy theories are based on the lie you state is that SOMEONE ( government ) claimed that the buildings melted .

NO ONE ever made such a claim , not the commission report or any government entity local state or federal.

Melted steel was found at the bottom of ground zero weeks after the attack it had been at the bottom of a burning pit for a long time but no one EVER claimed it melted and caused the buildings collapse.

The impact of the aircraft sheared over half of the support columns both outer and inner which supported the weight . The jet fuel IGNITED a fire which quickly spread and grew hotter feeding on the many many flammable objects and substances within the buildings. The towers were loaded with such consumable items a very short partial list includes carpets and rugs, drapes , wall paper , wood paneling , furniture ,cubicle dividers, cleaning products , paper , people , clothing , and on and on. This fire burned hotter and hotter fed by the updraft caused by air rushing in from the many shattered and cracked windows. It quickly grew much hotter than the crucial temperature of 900 degrees at which steel rapidly loses it's strength. Under such conditions the remaining supports lost 50% of their strength and gravity took over and the buildings collapsed in complete obedience to all the laws of physics and science

Sorry little boy but there is no law of physics or any other scientific discipline which refutes the official story it is not only possible but certain that the buildings would have collapsed AS they did as a result of fire and shock damage.

They were never designed to withstand the impact of aircraft as you claim sorry but that is another lie which the architects of the towers themselves have repeatedly stated.
There is no such thing as any building designed to withstand aircraft impacts.
Instead the buildings were designed to absorb impact damage as much as possible long enough for the buildings to be evacuated. And every engineer on the planet would call you a fool for claiming that they could remain standing after ten impacts or even two.

Once again you have nothing the men who built the damned thing qand designed it prove you wrong

[Soupnazi]

A. The same government involved in Watergate is noit the same government in power today. Dumb comment.

B. Everyone who participated in the fraud did not have to know the purpose of what they were doing .. AND, do you have any clue how many gag orders have been issued since 9/11? Prior to 9/11 gag orders were issued at about 20 a year .. between 9/11 and 2005, 143,000 gag orders have been issued .. all with a 5 year sentence hanging over the head of anyone who dare speak. There are gag orders on employees of the FBI, CIA, FAA, NYPD, and NYFD, among others regarding 9/11.

Saddam does not have WMD and the Bush Administration is lying. .. that was a conspiracy theory .. is it still?

We knew the Japanese were about to attack Pearl Harbor and we let it happen .. conspiracy theory?

The "Rescue" of Jessica Lynch is a fraud .. conspiracy theory? .. ask Jessica Lynch

The toppling of Saddam's statue was a fraud .. conspiracy theory?

The administration is lying about the death of Pat Tillman ..?

Downing Street Memo

Niger "yellow cake" is bullshit .. ?

The US Public Health Service is using black people to test horrible diseases on and allowing their partners and children to be subsequently infected .. ?

Project MKULTRA .. ?
Operation AJAX ..?
COINTELPRO ..?
Bay of Pigs ..?
Operation Mongoose (Cuban Project) .. ?
Operation Northwoods .. ? .. of particular interst to this discussion
Watergate
Iran-Contra
Secret CIA prisons
We're torturing people

All conspiracy theories proven true .. in fact, ALL criminal investigations begin as conspiracy theories.

There was no fraud and yes anyone involved would have known the whole story on 911 even with compartmentalized information putting two and two together would have been easy but no such conspiracy is possible that is fact.
yes we do know how many gag orders have been issued ZERO.

You cannot gag people over such a spectacular story they will not obey period end of discussion. IT is simple human nature the conspiracy you faithfully cling to is an absolute IMPOSSIBLITY

WE did not know pearl harbor was going to be attacked and WE did not let it happen and neither did Roosevelt . There was no conspiracy there.

The rescue of Lynch was real and not a fraud that is fact.

Toppling saddams statue was real and no fraud that is fact.

The administration said nothing one way or the other about pat tillmans death the army omitted the facts but did not lie.

And yes we all know bush lied about WMDS yellow cake etc to get us into war he may well deserve to go down as one of our worst presidents for doing so. But this is also not so much a conspiracy as politics as usual. Bush does not care that we know he lied because it was legal.

[BlackAsCoal]

There was no fraud and yes anyone involved would have known the whole story on 911 even with compartmentalized information putting two and two together would have been easy but no such conspiracy is possible that is fact.
yes we do know how many gag orders have been issued ZERO.

You cannot gag people over such a spectacular story they will not obey period end of discussion. IT is simple human nature the conspiracy you faithfully cling to is an absolute IMPOSSIBLITY

WE did not know pearl harbor was going to be attacked and WE did not let it happen and neither did Roosevelt . There was no conspiracy there.

The rescue of Lynch was real and not a fraud that is fact.

Toppling saddams statue was real and no fraud that is fact.

The administration said nothing one way or the other about pat tillmans death the army omitted the facts but did not lie.

And yes we all know bush lied about WMDS yellow cake etc to get us into war he may well deserve to go down as one of our worst presidents for doing so. But this is also not so much a conspiracy as politics as usual. Bush does not care that we know he lied because it was legal.

YIKES ...

Toppling of Saddam's statue

1. The toppling of the statue was not the "spontaneous" event it was reported to be,

2. The event was staged by a Psychological Operations unit of the U.S. Army,

3. Iraqis were told where to stand and what to do while the cameras rolled,

4. Only a dozen or so hand-picked Iraqis were present for the event, not thousands as virtually all news organizations reported,

5. The cordoned-off square was pretty much deserted apart from these few Iraqis, a large number of U.S. military, and many members of the press and camera crews (the photo showing the large view of the square was shown),

8. At the exact time of the toppling and filming of Iraqis celebrating their "liberation", only a few blocks away U.S. forces were engaged in a furious defensive gunbattle with Iraqi resistance fighters.

9. They were dumb enough to stage the fraud right in front of the hotel were international reporters were staying .. who photographed the entire staged event.

http://consumercide.com/media/chalib_1iqize2.jpg

Planet earth knows this was a fake-ass staged event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMgEc9Qds8M

The "Rescue" of Jessica Lynch

You should of had a clue when I told you to ask Jessica Lynch ...

1. The "rescue" was not only staged, it was directed by Jerry Bruckheimer (Black Hawk Down)

2. Lynch's life was saved by an Iraqi dictor and nurses where she was being held.

3. The Iraqi medical staff tried to return Lynch to US forces at the risk of their own lives, but their ambulance was fired on by American troops, so they turned around and took her back to the hospital

4. The US troops who "rescued" her were firing blank bullets

“I’m Jessica Lynch—and here’s my real story”

In April, I did something I never imagined I would need to do. I spoke before Congress about how the military creates myths exaggerating the heroics of its soldiers. It was a difficult choice—I knew I could be portrayed as unpatriotic, un-American or worse. But my reasons were personal, and profound. My capture and rescue in Iraq had been transformed into one of those myths.

Nobody likes to believe our military would mislead people—but they wanted a war hero so badly that they portrayed me as one. They didn’t get their facts straight before talking about what happened, and neither did the media. They said I went down guns blazing, like Rambo—but I never fired a shot, because my rifle had jammed. They later corrected the story, but I’m still paying the price. People write to me and say, “You don’t deserve all the attention.” I’ve received thousands of letters and calls like that. People think I lied or helped create the Rambo myth—that I wanted it.

---

Nonetheless, I felt I had to testify before Congress this spring so I could set the record straight once and for all. I saw it as a chance to say—again—that I never took credit for anything I didn’t do, and that I don’t know why the military and media tried to make me a legend. I also wanted to show my support for Pat Tillman, the football star and soldier. The military had put out the story that he’d been killed by the enemy in Afghanistan, but actually it was friendly fire. The Tillman family is still looking for the whole truth.
http://www.glamour.com/magazine/2007/06/jessica-lynch

The Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch frauds

First, it has been well-known for several years that the U.S. military outright invented lies regarding literally every aspect of the Jessica Lynch story. And the Tillman family for years has been vocally complaining about the lies they were told by the Pentagon regarding the circumstances surrounding Pat Tillman's death, the pressure on other soldiers to conceal the truth, and the crass and disgusting exploitation of those lies to serve the administration's political interests. None of this is new. So why is Congress holding hearings to investigate these matters only now?

The answer, of course, is because the Republicans who controlled Congress for the last four years absolutely suppressed any attempt whatsoever to exert oversight on the administration. They not only investigated nothing, they aggressively blocked every real investigation into allegations of wrongdoing and corruption on the part of the administration. Our government literally ceased to function the way it is designed to, because Congressional Republicans deliberately abdicated their duty of checks on the executive and actively helped to conceal every improper and deceitful act.

The only reason any of this is being aired now is because the American people removed the President's party from control of Congress and they are no longer able to keep concealed the Bush administration's misconduct.

Second, I defy anyone to go back and read the April and May, 2003 tongue-wagging, mindless American press accounts of Jessica Lynch's epic firefight against the Enemy; the severe gun shot and stabbing wounds she suffered; the torture to which she was subjected while in the Iraqi hospital; and the daring, gun-blazing rescue of her by our Special Forces, and then try to claim that we have a functioning, healthy political press in this country that serves as a check on government deceit and corruption. It is impossible for any minimally honest person to make that claim in light of those stories.

Lynch was kept in this run-down hospital that had been converted into an Iraqi military headquarters. Her whereabouts unknown until a local doctor handed a note to US Marines in the area saying there was a wounded soldier inside. The daring nighttime rescue was right out of a Hollywood thriller as seen in this footage released by the Pentagon just this morning.

Most of our nation's journalists do not report on government conduct. They participate in it actively and consciously as government spokesmen. Judy Miller is the symbol of our political press, not its aberration.

Third, the only real reason that we learned of the pervasive deceit in the Jessica Lynch case is because the foreign press -- principally the BBC and The Guardian -- aggressively investigated the U.S. government's claims. And they did so because officials in the British Government were appalled at how deceitful were the claims being made by the Pentagon, and how passive and uncritical our press was in passing it along.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/04/25/tillman_lynch/

Pat Tillman

SAN FRANCISCO -- Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.

_ The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

The Pentagon and the Bush administration have been criticized in recent months for lying about the circumstances of Tillman's death. The military initially told the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by enemy fire. Only weeks later did the Pentagon acknowledge he was gunned down by fellow Rangers.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/26/AR2007072602025.html

In Pat Tillamn's case, I should have told you to ask is family if the Bush Administration lied and used their son's death to promote their war.

Pearl Harbor

Obviously you are not aware that we sunk four Japanese mini-subs in and near Pearl Harbor Bay just an hour before the attack began. The last one was sunk by the USS Ward. The range of a mini-sub was about 60 miles .. so unless Japan lies 60 miles off the Hawaiian coast, we knew there were large ships near that had brought the mini-subs .. AND we had broken the Japenese code .. we knew the fleet was on the way.

USS Ward, Report of Pearl Harbor Attack

Subject: Sinking of a Japanese Submarine by U.S.S. Ward.

While patrolling Pearl Harbor Entrance on Sunday, December 7, 1941, the U.S.S. Ward attacked an unidentified submarine in the Restricted Area off the Harbor.
The facts are as follows:

At 0637 the Officer-of-the-Deck said, "Captain come on the bridge". A conning tower with periscope of submarine was visible. She was apparently headed for Pearl Harbor trailing the U.S.S. Antares. The Antares was standing toward the channel entrance towing a lighter.

At 0640 the attack was started. The Ward bore down on the submarine while accelerating from 5 to 25 knots.

At 0645 the Ward opened fire with No. 1 and 3 guns and began dropping depth charges. One shot was fired from each gun. The shot from No. 1 gun missed, passing directly over the conning tower.

The shot from No. 3 gun fired at a range of 560 yards or less struck the submarine at the waterline which was the junction of the hull and coning tower. Damage was seen by several members of the crew. This was a square positive hit. There was no evidence of ricochet. The submarine was seen to heel over to starboard. The projectile was not seen to explode outside the hull of the submarine.

There was no splash of any size that might results from an explosion or ricochet.

Immediately after being hit the submarine appeared to slow and sink. She ran into our depth charge barrage and appeared to be directly over an exploding charge. The depth charges were set for 100 feet.

The submarine sank in 1200 feet of water and could not be located with supersonic detector. There was a large amount of oil on the surface where the depth charges exploded.

The attack was made at 0645 which was before Pearl Harbor was bombed by Japanese planes.
A dispatch by voice transmission was sent to Commandant, Fourteenth Naval District at 0645 which stated: "We have attacked, fired upon, and dropped depth charges on a submarine operating in defensive sea areas."

The performance of duty by the officers and men during this attack was in accordance with the traditions of this service.
http://www.history.navy.mil/docs/wwii/pearl/ph97.htm

PEARL HARBOR MOTHER OF ALL CONSPIRACIES
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

The fact that you don't know these truths .. which frankly, are all widely known, researched, documented, and proven, demonstrates that your knee-jerk reaction to "conspiracy theories" is invalid .. AS IS, your notion that "human nature" would have caused people to talk. Well, it's been almost 70 years since Pearl Harbor and you still didn't know.

How many troops, photographers, camera people and such knew the Jessica Lynch story was a fraud? Heard from any of them?

How many people were involved in the many other instances of fraud that I've posted? How many talked?

This also demonstrates that you accept lies and propaganda without the slightest questioning. I have absolutely no doubt that you accepted the "Saddam has WMD" bulllshit until it was conclusively proven to be bullshit.

[Moby]

There was no fraud and yes anyone involved would have known the whole story on 911 even with compartmentalized information putting two and two together would have been easy but no such conspiracy is possible that is fact.
How is that "Fact"?

[Soupnazi]

YIKES ...

Toppling of Saddam's statue

1. The toppling of the statue was not the "spontaneous" event it was reported to be,

2. The event was staged by a Psychological Operations unit of the U.S. Army,

3. Iraqis were told where to stand and what to do while the cameras rolled,

4. Only a dozen or so hand-picked Iraqis were present for the event, not thousands as virtually all news organizations reported,

5. The cordoned-off square was pretty much deserted apart from these few Iraqis, a large number of U.S. military, and many members of the press and camera crews (the photo showing the large view of the square was shown),

8. At the exact time of the toppling and filming of Iraqis celebrating their "liberation", only a few blocks away U.S. forces were engaged in a furious defensive gunbattle with Iraqi resistance fighters.

9. They were dumb enough to stage the fraud right in front of the hotel were international reporters were staying .. who photographed the entire staged event.

http://consumercide.com/media/chalib_1iqize2.jpg

Planet earth knows this was a fake-ass staged event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMgEc9Qds8M

The "Rescue" of Jessica Lynch

You should of had a clue when I told you to ask Jessica Lynch ...

1. The "rescue" was not only staged, it was directed by Jerry Bruckheimer (Black Hawk Down)

2. Lynch's life was saved by an Iraqi dictor and nurses where she was being held.

3. The Iraqi medical staff tried to return Lynch to US forces at the risk of their own lives, but their ambulance was fired on by American troops, so they turned around and took her back to the hospital

4. The US troops who "rescued" her were firing blank bullets

“I’m Jessica Lynch—and here’s my real story”

In April, I did something I never imagined I would need to do. I spoke before Congress about how the military creates myths exaggerating the heroics of its soldiers. It was a difficult choice—I knew I could be portrayed as unpatriotic, un-American or worse. But my reasons were personal, and profound. My capture and rescue in Iraq had been transformed into one of those myths.

Nobody likes to believe our military would mislead people—but they wanted a war hero so badly that they portrayed me as one. They didn’t get their facts straight before talking about what happened, and neither did the media. They said I went down guns blazing, like Rambo—but I never fired a shot, because my rifle had jammed. They later corrected the story, but I’m still paying the price. People write to me and say, “You don’t deserve all the attention.” I’ve received thousands of letters and calls like that. People think I lied or helped create the Rambo myth—that I wanted it.

---

Nonetheless, I felt I had to testify before Congress this spring so I could set the record straight once and for all. I saw it as a chance to say—again—that I never took credit for anything I didn’t do, and that I don’t know why the military and media tried to make me a legend. I also wanted to show my support for Pat Tillman, the football star and soldier. The military had put out the story that he’d been killed by the enemy in Afghanistan, but actually it was friendly fire. The Tillman family is still looking for the whole truth.
http://www.glamour.com/magazine/2007/06/jessica-lynch

The Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch frauds

First, it has been well-known for several years that the U.S. military outright invented lies regarding literally every aspect of the Jessica Lynch story. And the Tillman family for years has been vocally complaining about the lies they were told by the Pentagon regarding the circumstances surrounding Pat Tillman's death, the pressure on other soldiers to conceal the truth, and the crass and disgusting exploitation of those lies to serve the administration's political interests. None of this is new. So why is Congress holding hearings to investigate these matters only now?

The answer, of course, is because the Republicans who controlled Congress for the last four years absolutely suppressed any attempt whatsoever to exert oversight on the administration. They not only investigated nothing, they aggressively blocked every real investigation into allegations of wrongdoing and corruption on the part of the administration. Our government literally ceased to function the way it is designed to, because Congressional Republicans deliberately abdicated their duty of checks on the executive and actively helped to conceal every improper and deceitful act.

The only reason any of this is being aired now is because the American people removed the President's party from control of Congress and they are no longer able to keep concealed the Bush administration's misconduct.

Second, I defy anyone to go back and read the April and May, 2003 tongue-wagging, mindless American press accounts of Jessica Lynch's epic firefight against the Enemy; the severe gun shot and stabbing wounds she suffered; the torture to which she was subjected while in the Iraqi hospital; and the daring, gun-blazing rescue of her by our Special Forces, and then try to claim that we have a functioning, healthy political press in this country that serves as a check on government deceit and corruption. It is impossible for any minimally honest person to make that claim in light of those stories.

Lynch was kept in this run-down hospital that had been converted into an Iraqi military headquarters. Her whereabouts unknown until a local doctor handed a note to US Marines in the area saying there was a wounded soldier inside. The daring nighttime rescue was right out of a Hollywood thriller as seen in this footage released by the Pentagon just this morning.

Most of our nation's journalists do not report on government conduct. They participate in it actively and consciously as government spokesmen. Judy Miller is the symbol of our political press, not its aberration.

Third, the only real reason that we learned of the pervasive deceit in the Jessica Lynch case is because the foreign press -- principally the BBC and The Guardian -- aggressively investigated the U.S. government's claims. And they did so because officials in the British Government were appalled at how deceitful were the claims being made by the Pentagon, and how passive and uncritical our press was in passing it along.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/04/25/tillman_lynch/

Pat Tillman

SAN FRANCISCO -- Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.

_ The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

The Pentagon and the Bush administration have been criticized in recent months for lying about the circumstances of Tillman's death. The military initially told the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by enemy fire. Only weeks later did the Pentagon acknowledge he was gunned down by fellow Rangers.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/26/AR2007072602025.html

In Pat Tillamn's case, I should have told you to ask is family if the Bush Administration lied and used their son's death to promote their war.

Pearl Harbor

Obviously you are not aware that we sunk four Japanese mini-subs in and near Pearl Harbor Bay just an hour before the attack began. The last one was sunk by the USS Ward. The range of a mini-sub was about 60 miles .. so unless Japan lies 60 miles off the Hawaiian coast, we knew there were large ships near that had brought the mini-subs .. AND we had broken the Japenese code .. we knew the fleet was on the way.

USS Ward, Report of Pearl Harbor Attack

Subject: Sinking of a Japanese Submarine by U.S.S. Ward.

While patrolling Pearl Harbor Entrance on Sunday, December 7, 1941, the U.S.S. Ward attacked an unidentified submarine in the Restricted Area off the Harbor.
The facts are as follows:

At 0637 the Officer-of-the-Deck said, "Captain come on the bridge". A conning tower with periscope of submarine was visible. She was apparently headed for Pearl Harbor trailing the U.S.S. Antares. The Antares was standing toward the channel entrance towing a lighter.

At 0640 the attack was started. The Ward bore down on the submarine while accelerating from 5 to 25 knots.

At 0645 the Ward opened fire with No. 1 and 3 guns and began dropping depth charges. One shot was fired from each gun. The shot from No. 1 gun missed, passing directly over the conning tower.

The shot from No. 3 gun fired at a range of 560 yards or less struck the submarine at the waterline which was the junction of the hull and coning tower. Damage was seen by several members of the crew. This was a square positive hit. There was no evidence of ricochet. The submarine was seen to heel over to starboard. The projectile was not seen to explode outside the hull of the submarine.

There was no splash of any size that might results from an explosion or ricochet.

Immediately after being hit the submarine appeared to slow and sink. She ran into our depth charge barrage and appeared to be directly over an exploding charge. The depth charges were set for 100 feet.

The submarine sank in 1200 feet of water and could not be located with supersonic detector. There was a large amount of oil on the surface where the depth charges exploded.

The attack was made at 0645 which was before Pearl Harbor was bombed by Japanese planes.
A dispatch by voice transmission was sent to Commandant, Fourteenth Naval District at 0645 which stated: "We have attacked, fired upon, and dropped depth charges on a submarine operating in defensive sea areas."

The performance of duty by the officers and men during this attack was in accordance with the traditions of this service.
http://www.history.navy.mil/docs/wwii/pearl/ph97.htm

PEARL HARBOR MOTHER OF ALL CONSPIRACIES
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

The fact that you don't know these truths .. which frankly, are all widely known, researched, documented, and proven, demonstrates that your knee-jerk reaction to "conspiracy theories" is invalid .. AS IS, your notion that "human nature" would have caused people to talk. Well, it's been almost 70 years since Pearl Harbor and you still didn't know.

How many troops, photographers, camera people and such knew the Jessica Lynch story was a fraud? Heard from any of them?

How many people were involved in the many other instances of fraud that I've posted? How many talked?

This also demonstrates that you accept lies and propaganda without the slightest questioning. I have absolutely no doubt that you accepted the "Saddam has WMD" bulllshit until it was conclusively proven to be bullshit.

These lies of yours are proven lies the so called documentation you speak of does not exist little boy .

The statue was spontaneuously toppled by an army unit and hundreds of iraqis were there watching and celebrating NO BODY reported thousands of them being there and in fact all who were there joined in spontaneously the PSIOP you speak of never took place.

Jessica objected to having her own actions glorified and herself being made into a hero although even she was wrong because the military never did exaggerate her capture the media exaggerated her heroics and the military did not correct the media.

Jerry Bruckheimer was not there the troops were under fire and firing back while rescuing her it was not staged even she praised the heroics of the spec op troops who rescued her.There were no blank rounds to be found anywhere in iraq.

Yes iraqi doctors and nurses treated her well which the military never denied it is apparent that at one point they did in fact try to return her to US control but were fired on ( duh it was a war zone).But one of that alters the fact that she was a POW and in fact while the medical people treated her well some iraqi military personel roughed her up while she was being held.

Sorry little boy the fact prove you wrong and we can go on

It was only one japanese mini sub sunk not four and yes they were sunk outside of pearl harbor and we only broke SOME japanese codes we never broke all of them .

The point I made in my last post we WE did not know they were going to attack a few people thought they were going to attack but that is not WE as in all of the government.

The government to include the military is a huge beauracracy in which the left hand does not always know what the right hand is doing. There was no fraud or conspiracy involved in pearl harbor . It was nothing more ominous or conspiratorial than a lengthy delay in transmitting information about a probable imminent attack. This sort of red tape delay and foul up is common it happens and unfortunately until people can read minds such ironies are inevitable.

The military did lie by omision concerning Tillman at last at first the fact is they never said that he was killed by the enemy in a word for word sense. They stated he was killed n action ( which was accurate).They left out the inconvenient fact that he was killed by fratricide which they new from the begining. This was the military though and not the administration. And for the record yes it is cowardly and despicable for the military to do this but boring truth is that it was once again not some vast conspiracy.Instead this was a typical small time institutional conspiracy which the military has a precedent for commiting.There were similar cases in vietnam and other wars where an attempt was made to hush up the truth about fratricide. This was done mainly because morally weak officers in the military saw too much bad press and media directed at the military and did not want to add fuel to the fire by stating facts about tragedies which did occur.

There is no excuse for the military to do this however the motive is understandable . Fratricide happens to every army in every war throughout all of history it happens to ours less so than most but it still happens it is an unavoidable consequence of going to war. Nevertheless public opinion is a huge resource which the military needs and in recent wars we have lost it often due to lies and out right smear campaigns by civilians particularly the media . A comparison can be made to the My Lai massacre which humiliated the military not because it happened but because it was an isolated event a crime which was not repeated by other americans . Nevertheless in that war protestors were accusing all troops of commiting such crimes daily. Therefore the military was loathe to admit that one such atrocity did in fact ocur.

There is no evidence that anything happened to tillman other than fratricide it was a tragedy which occurs in the fog of war and the military did in fatc reverse it's earlier stance and admit the facts .

So as with al your other tabloid tales you have nothing

[Soupnazi]

How is that "Fact"?
Read the previous posts about how people do not keep secrets That is " how it is a fact"

[Moby]

Read the previous posts about how people do not keep secrets That is " how it is a fact"
So no one is capable of keeping a secret for national security? No one in the CIA? No one in the FBI? No one in the NSA? Bush, Cheney, Clinton, Reagan they're all leaking state's secrets now as we speak because anyone that knows secrets will leak them?

Your conclusion maybe be right but your logic is way wrong and not even close to supportable if it's based on that.

[Soupnazi]

So no one is capable of keeping a secret for national security? No one in the CIA? No one in the FBI? No one in the NSA? Bush, Cheney, Clinton, Reagan they're all leaking state's secrets now as we speak because anyone that knows secrets will leak them?

Your conclusion maybe be right but your logic is way wrong and not even close to supportable if it's based on that.

We are not talking about facts kept secret due to national security which you swear an oath to keep. We are talking about criminal conspiracy secrets and lies which are not national security and my logica is sound and irrefutable

[disrupter]

didn't you know, religion absolves one of any crimes?

Mass murder a trillion people in the name of your god & it isn't even considered a sin.
Mass murder a trillion people even against the will of your god, & then pray for redemption & all is forgiven.

Is there anything that robs people of ethics more than dogmatic, anthropomorphic religions?

I suppose sometimes we act similarly rationalize a lot as 'for our families', 'for our group', but face it, people in prisons more often than not have some way of rationalizing what they have done & we all are fundamentally no different.

rationalization is the pretense of logic & ethics,
but actual ethics must operate on more than one track so that it has something to reconcile itself with in a measured, rationed fashion.

It seems to me if one wants a much purer form of spirituality it should be as non-anthropomorphic as possible. As abstract & intangible as possible. Something akin to Zen Buddhism. Meditation to float completely detached from the noise of reality itself. Access to infinite, restoring calm.
I am not sure why we seem to need to lay claim to fantastic, ridiculous claims for our religious attachments. Obviously we very often do not operate on an optimal level.

The violence we perform in the name of religion is really troubling. Life has a lot of inherent violence, but claiming there is divinity to it, just begs credibility. I would think it would bring shame to any claim of a 'higher' purpose. Enlightenment allows one to abstract things & work with greater & greater precision, until at some point it becomes fantastic articulation, detached from any immediate emotionality. Like pure mechanics. I suppose on some level there is always rationalization but it becomes so thin after being highly worked that even the subjects of it likely accept it as being/becoming part of a greater whole. I guess sometimes we feel mean & vindictive if we have some spot that is worn raw in our psyches, but very often the way we rationalize it is unscrupulous, irrational & illogical. Often it is just a rationalization for the independent fact that we feel angry or resentful. While real, objective abuse does exist, our minds greatly tend to over amplify & even synthesize 'reasons' for our emotions. I guess it is about fine parsing between [needless?] intentional meanness & simple utility. I suppose it has to do with probing the depth of the source of some infliction upon us. If we can, through our own personal means evade/minimize being subject to the apparent psychological effronteries of others we can dispense with any large concern about it.

I suppose a lot of it comes down to our philosophies of what we see other people are [intended, of use] 'for'. Also in conjunction with what we see our own individual existence is 'for' or about.

While i certainly could not live as well without other people, perhaps couldn't even survive, i do see large portions of humanity as largely perfunctory. If you have large populations that are just as well represented in action by a much smaller number & the large numbers are wrecking havoc upon the very environment upon which everyone needs to survive, then not culling human populations is likely irrational.
One wants to think one can rationally tell people they can not over reproduce, but people are largely compulsive & instinctive & will not listen to collective reason without imminent threats to their persons.

I am not a fan of police states, & even argue that they produce economic basket cases, but for some survival policy purposes i don't believe there is any other practical choice.

[LogicallyYours]

Anyone who believes the 9/11 story automatically qualifies as the Valedictorian Magna Cum Laude of Moronic Thought.

You would have to be a moron to believe 9/11 happened as claimed.

That's a pretty broad statement. Can you be more specific as to what you take issue with?

[Scumbag]

Is there anything that robs people of ethics more than dogmatic, anthropomorphic religions?But..................aren't peoples' ethics taught to them through the doctrines of their particular religion? Dogmatic, anthropomorphic or otherwise?

And doesn't that apply to ALL religions?

Quite apart from that, to say that in order to survive we need to adopt some sort of police state would only serve to replace religion as a valid excuse when committing crimes against humanity........would it not?

Good post, though, even if a tad off topic. (Not that that would be a problem, here.)

I like the way you think these days Disrupter. Keep up the medication, it seems to be working!


:D

[BlackAsCoal]

That's a pretty broad statement. Can you be more specific as to what you take issue with?

Everything about it .. as described in this thread.

[BlackAsCoal]

These lies of yours are proven lies the so called documentation you speak of does not exist little boy .

The statue was spontaneuously toppled by an army unit and hundreds of iraqis were there watching and celebrating NO BODY reported thousands of them being there and in fact all who were there joined in spontaneously the PSIOP you speak of never took place.

Jessica objected to having her own actions glorified and herself being made into a hero although even she was wrong because the military never did exaggerate her capture the media exaggerated her heroics and the military did not correct the media.

Jerry Bruckheimer was not there the troops were under fire and firing back while rescuing her it was not staged even she praised the heroics of the spec op troops who rescued her.There were no blank rounds to be found anywhere in iraq.

Yes iraqi doctors and nurses treated her well which the military never denied it is apparent that at one point they did in fact try to return her to US control but were fired on ( duh it was a war zone).But one of that alters the fact that she was a POW and in fact while the medical people treated her well some iraqi military personel roughed her up while she was being held.

Sorry little boy the fact prove you wrong and we can go on

It was only one japanese mini sub sunk not four and yes they were sunk outside of pearl harbor and we only broke SOME japanese codes we never broke all of them .

The point I made in my last post we WE did not know they were going to attack a few people thought they were going to attack but that is not WE as in all of the government.

The government to include the military is a huge beauracracy in which the left hand does not always know what the right hand is doing. There was no fraud or conspiracy involved in pearl harbor . It was nothing more ominous or conspiratorial than a lengthy delay in transmitting information about a probable imminent attack. This sort of red tape delay and foul up is common it happens and unfortunately until people can read minds such ironies are inevitable.

The military did lie by omision concerning Tillman at last at first the fact is they never said that he was killed by the enemy in a word for word sense. They stated he was killed n action ( which was accurate).They left out the inconvenient fact that he was killed by fratricide which they new from the begining. This was the military though and not the administration. And for the record yes it is cowardly and despicable for the military to do this but boring truth is that it was once again not some vast conspiracy.Instead this was a typical small time institutional conspiracy which the military has a precedent for commiting.There were similar cases in vietnam and other wars where an attempt was made to hush up the truth about fratricide. This was done mainly because morally weak officers in the military saw too much bad press and media directed at the military and did not want to add fuel to the fire by stating facts about tragedies which did occur.

There is no excuse for the military to do this however the motive is understandable . Fratricide happens to every army in every war throughout all of history it happens to ours less so than most but it still happens it is an unavoidable consequence of going to war. Nevertheless public opinion is a huge resource which the military needs and in recent wars we have lost it often due to lies and out right smear campaigns by civilians particularly the media . A comparison can be made to the My Lai massacre which humiliated the military not because it happened but because it was an isolated event a crime which was not repeated by other americans . Nevertheless in that war protestors were accusing all troops of commiting such crimes daily. Therefore the military was loathe to admit that one such atrocity did in fact ocur.

There is no evidence that anything happened to tillman other than fratricide it was a tragedy which occurs in the fog of war and the military did in fatc reverse it's earlier stance and admit the facts .

So as with al your other tabloid tales you have nothing

The human mind is an amazing thing.

There is simply nowhere to begin to respond to you .. without laughing.

Facts are all I have.

I've disproven every damn thing you've said in your previous post easily did it. I mean, how in the hell could you not know the Lynch story was disproven? Lynch testified before Congress. .. How in the fuck could you not know?

Pat Tillman .. you didn't know?

You're still claiming the Saddam's statue bullshit is true when I've given you the PICTURES and the mainstreeam media account. WTF!!!

Here's the most telling thing about you sir .. you are not a seeker of truth .. you're intellectually lazy. You say things without having that thing inside you that makes one seek the truth of what you say and believe.

"little boy" .. is that what I am? :)

Check this out ...

"It was only one japanese mini sub sunk not four and yes they were sunk outside of pearl harbor and we only broke SOME japanese codes we never broke all of them .

I don't have crayons .. PICTURES and documentation will have to do

There were not only four sunk .. one ran aground ... THIS ONE

http://www.submarinebooks.com/japminisub3.jpg

So only one was sunk .. that your contention einstein?

This midget sub find has been described as the most significant modern marine archeological find ever in the Pacific, second only to the finding of the Titanic in the Atlantic. The Japanese midget sub was one of five attached to five I-class mother submarines and brought from Japan to be launched 5-6 hours before the aerial attack, within a few miles of Pearl Harbor.

Each had a crew of two. The subs were battery powered , 78 feet long , 6 feet in diameter and weighed 46 tons. They carried two torpedoes and a scuttling charge to avoid capture. Although experimental in design, they were very advanced for the time. For short periods, they could run at 20 knots. These midget submarines were completed only months before the attack allowing little time for the crews to train.

All of the five submarines comprising the advanced attack force were sunk or captured.

The type A midget submarines had a series of basic design problems including trim and ballast control and problems both with battery life and battery monitoring. Later redesign, as five man midget submarines of the Koryu class, addressed but did not solve these problems. The Japanese midget submarines although believed at the time to be a potent secret weapon, in actual fact, were never highly effective. So far four of the five original midget submarines attacking Pearl Harbor have been found.
http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/HURL/midget.html

That's from the Hawaii Underwater Research Laboratory .. you think they may have a clue what they're talking about?

The point is it would have taken a normal brain about 5 minutes on google to find out the truth .. but your dumb ass didn't have the capacity to even consider discovering truth.

"little boy" ??? :)

[disrupter]

I suggest that our pentagon & likely large swaths of government & those who set themselves 'above' other people have become infected with religious belief,

rather than adhering to the far more ephemeral & much less emotionally satisfying ideas of 'democracy', free speech as well as thought.

[Instinctively? reflexively?] We want the seeming certainty of determinism when sketchy, free floating uncertainty is vastly more likely to produce useful & progressive results.

Alice must build something structural to contend with the medium of the abyss, even as she is falling down that abyss. We have the short time & circumstance windows of our lives to quick study & experimentally work with where we exist.

It is like one person baseball, you must first toss the ball into the air before you can be freed to slam it. Hopefully one grasps initially that it makes a more advantageous set up to toss the ball rather than the bat & attempt to 'slam' the bat with the ball.

I hear all about the religious bigotry & intimidation & threats against anyone who doesn't have a reactionary Christian beliefs in the Military. As Tillman didn't. And all the grossly, self indulgent & counter productive racism against Iraqis & Arabs that is rampant in the Military & US paid mercenaries in Iraq.

Bush thinks [some] 'God' put him in the whitehouse.

Why is it such a leap to think a small group of unmonitored, committed psychopaths could not & did not perpetrate 911?
Rumsfeld himself quoted that 2.3 Trillion dollars was missing from Military budgets.
The NSA commits unconstitutional crimes against the American people with impunity for their many nefarious purposes.
It is much easier for me to believe, when considering all the shortfalls of concrete evidence of 911 that it was a fantasy plotted by Al Qaeda, but infact effectively perpetrated by NSA &/or Israeli actors.

The beauty of 911 is the people who imagined perpetrating it believe some in their midsts did it, while those who actually did for their own dishonorable reasons get a perfect cover.
It is framing someone for a crime & the framed person themselves confesses to it, because they themselves have bought the false belief.

In a word it approaches 'perfection',
but it is an attempt to act, impose determinism in the midst of near-infinite chaos which because of the laws of unintended consequences is unlikely to come anywhere close to the perp's projected hopes.
Time's uncertainty, which is necessary for it, means expedited, constant curve matching/sketching is the most profitable tack. Trying to impose certainty or determinism is the most effective way to be buried into impotence by the events of history.

If you live in smoke you must become one with the smoke.

If you live in the abyss you must become one with the abyss.

[BlackAsCoal]

I suggest that our pentagon & likely large swaths of government & those who set themselves 'above' other people have become infected with religious belief,

rather than adhering to the far more ephemeral & much less emotionally satisfying ideas of 'democracy', free speech as well as thought.

[Instinctively? reflexively?] We want the seeming certainty of determinism when sketchy, free floating uncertainty is vastly more likely to produce useful & progressive results.

Alice must build something structural to contend with the medium of the abyss, even as she is falling down that abyss. We have the short time & circumstance windows of our lives to quick study & experimentally work with where we exist.

It is like one person baseball, you must first toss the ball into the air before you can be freed to slam it. Hopefully one grasps initially that it makes a more advantageous set up to toss the ball rather than the bat & attempt to 'slam' the bat with the ball.

I hear all about the religious bigotry & intimidation & threats against anyone who doesn't have a reactionary Christian beliefs in the Military. As Tillman didn't. And all the grossly, self indulgent & counter productive racism against Iraqis & Arabs that is rampant in the Military & US paid mercenaries in Iraq.

Bush thinks [some] 'God' put him in the whitehouse.

Why is it such a leap to think a small group of unmonitored, committed psychopaths could not & did not perpetrate 911?
Rumsfeld himself quoted that 2.3 Trillion dollars was missing from Military budgets.
The NSA commits unconstitutional crimes against the American people with impunity for their many nefarious purposes.
It is much easier for me to believe, when considering all the shortfalls of concrete evidence of 911 that it was a fantasy plotted by Al Qaeda, but infact effectively perpetrated by NSA &/or Israeli actors.

The beauty of 911 is the people who imagined perpetrating it believe some in their midsts did it, while those who actually did for their own dishonorable reasons get a perfect cover.
It is framing someone for a crime & the framed person themselves confesses to it, because they themselves have bought the false belief.

In a word it approaches 'perfection',
but it is an attempt to act, impose determinism in the midst of near-infinite chaos which because of the laws of unintended consequences is unlikely to come anywhere close to the perp's projected hopes.
Time's uncertainty, which is necessary for it, means expedited, constant curve matching/sketching is the most profitable tack. Trying to impose certainty or determinism is the most effective way to be buried by the impotence of the events of history.

If you live in smoke you must become one with the smoke.

Well said.

[Independent Harry]

These lies of yours are proven lies the so called documentation you speak of does not exist little boy .

The statue was spontaneuously toppled by an army unit and hundreds of iraqis were there watching and celebrating NO BODY reported thousands of them being there and in fact all who were there joined in spontaneously the PSIOP you speak of never took place.

Jessica objected to having her own actions glorified and herself being made into a hero although even she was wrong because the military never did exaggerate her capture the media exaggerated her heroics and the military did not correct the media.

Jerry Bruckheimer was not there the troops were under fire and firing back while rescuing her it was not staged even she praised the heroics of the spec op troops who rescued her.There were no blank rounds to be found anywhere in iraq.

Yes iraqi doctors and nurses treated her well which the military never denied it is apparent that at one point they did in fact try to return her to US control but were fired on ( duh it was a war zone).But one of that alters the fact that she was a POW and in fact while the medical people treated her well some iraqi military personel roughed her up while she was being held.

Sorry little boy the fact prove you wrong and we can go on

It was only one japanese mini sub sunk not four and yes they were sunk outside of pearl harbor and we only broke SOME japanese codes we never broke all of them .

The point I made in my last post we WE did not know they were going to attack a few people thought they were going to attack but that is not WE as in all of the government.

The government to include the military is a huge beauracracy in which the left hand does not always know what the right hand is doing. There was no fraud or conspiracy involved in pearl harbor . It was nothing more ominous or conspiratorial than a lengthy delay in transmitting information about a probable imminent attack. This sort of red tape delay and foul up is common it happens and unfortunately until people can read minds such ironies are inevitable.

The military did lie by omision concerning Tillman at last at first the fact is they never said that he was killed by the enemy in a word for word sense. They stated he was killed n action ( which was accurate).They left out the inconvenient fact that he was killed by fratricide which they new from the begining. This was the military though and not the administration. And for the record yes it is cowardly and despicable for the military to do this but boring truth is that it was once again not some vast conspiracy.Instead this was a typical small time institutional conspiracy which the military has a precedent for commiting.There were similar cases in vietnam and other wars where an attempt was made to hush up the truth about fratricide. This was done mainly because morally weak officers in the military saw too much bad press and media directed at the military and did not want to add fuel to the fire by stating facts about tragedies which did occur.

There is no excuse for the military to do this however the motive is understandable . Fratricide happens to every army in every war throughout all of history it happens to ours less so than most but it still happens it is an unavoidable consequence of going to war. Nevertheless public opinion is a huge resource which the military needs and in recent wars we have lost it often due to lies and out right smear campaigns by civilians particularly the media . A comparison can be made to the My Lai massacre which humiliated the military not because it happened but because it was an isolated event a crime which was not repeated by other americans . Nevertheless in that war protestors were accusing all troops of commiting such crimes daily. Therefore the military was loathe to admit that one such atrocity did in fact ocur.

There is no evidence that anything happened to tillman other than fratricide it was a tragedy which occurs in the fog of war and the military did in fatc reverse it's earlier stance and admit the facts .

So as with al your other tabloid tales you have nothing

Links, supporting evidence. Are we supposed to take you at your word? I mean at least blackascoal provided documentation. You provide nothing...

[Independent Harry]

[QUOTE=Soupnazi]We are not talking about facts kept secret due to national security which you swear an oath to keep. We are talking about criminal conspiracy secrets and lies which are not national security and my logica is sound and irrefutable[/QUOT

So you're saying that its only possible to keep secrets that you have bound yourself by oath in service to a government office, and all other secrets are pyschologically impossible to keep?

If that's your premise, and it sounds like it is. man you need medication...

[disrupter]

Children, especially in the past, have kept abuse secret, even to their graves.

to say that 'national security' is the only or even the most compelling reason to keep a secret is absurd.

[Scumbag]

Children, especially in the past, have kept abuse secret, even to their graves.
Really? How do you know that?

[Scumbag]

So you're saying that its only possible to keep secrets that you have bound yourself by oath in service to a government office, and all other secrets are pyschologically impossible to keep?

If that's your premise, and it sounds like it is. man you need medication...
Well, that's not so hard to comprehend!

People with a profound sense of love for their country will usually display an equally profound sense of loyalty. An oath given under these circumstances would be infinitely more respected than an undertaking not to give up a conspiracy.

If you can't understand the difference between the two then there is really little hope that you could ever be considered as someone who could be trusted to uphold a principle.....Any principle!

[Soupnazi]

The human mind is an amazing thing.

There is simply nowhere to begin to respond to you .. without laughing.

Facts are all I have.

I've disproven every damn thing you've said in your previous post easily did it. I mean, how in the hell could you not know the Lynch story was disproven? Lynch testified before Congress. .. How in the fuck could you not know?

Pat Tillman .. you didn't know?

You're still claiming the Saddam's statue bullshit is true when I've given you the PICTURES and the mainstreeam media account. WTF!!!

Here's the most telling thing about you sir .. you are not a seeker of truth .. you're intellectually lazy. You say things without having that thing inside you that makes one seek the truth of what you say and believe.

"little boy" .. is that what I am? :)

Check this out ...

"It was only one japanese mini sub sunk not four and yes they were sunk outside of pearl harbor and we only broke SOME japanese codes we never broke all of them .

I don't have crayons .. PICTURES and documentation will have to do

There were not only four sunk .. one ran aground ... THIS ONE

http://www.submarinebooks.com/japminisub3.jpg

So only one was sunk .. that your contention einstein?

This midget sub find has been described as the most significant modern marine archeological find ever in the Pacific, second only to the finding of the Titanic in the Atlantic. The Japanese midget sub was one of five attached to five I-class mother submarines and brought from Japan to be launched 5-6 hours before the aerial attack, within a few miles of Pearl Harbor.

Each had a crew of two. The subs were battery powered , 78 feet long , 6 feet in diameter and weighed 46 tons. They carried two torpedoes and a scuttling charge to avoid capture. Although experimental in design, they were very advanced for the time. For short periods, they could run at 20 knots. These midget submarines were completed only months before the attack allowing little time for the crews to train.

All of the five submarines comprising the advanced attack force were sunk or captured.

The type A midget submarines had a series of basic design problems including trim and ballast control and problems both with battery life and battery monitoring. Later redesign, as five man midget submarines of the Koryu class, addressed but did not solve these problems. The Japanese midget submarines although believed at the time to be a potent secret weapon, in actual fact, were never highly effective. So far four of the five original midget submarines attacking Pearl Harbor have been found.
http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/HURL/midget.html

That's from the Hawaii Underwater Research Laboratory .. you think they may have a clue what they're talking about?

The point is it would have taken a normal brain about 5 minutes on google to find out the truth .. but your dumb ass didn't have the capacity to even consider discovering truth.

"little boy" ??? :)
yes you have the maturity of a little boy and it is pathetic you believe in science fiction and comic book tales you offer no evidence you ignore science and logic and allow yourself to fall for tantalizing stories all of whjich have been disproven.

You are wrong and proven wrong your entire stroy in all cases has been ruined wrecked and destroyed by others humiliating you and proving yourself to be a dunce.

read this carefully BOY you offered no fact watsoever

you offered no proof whatsoever

you offered no evidence whatsoever

History and evidece and proof and facts make you a complete idiot.

A picture of a minisub on a beach is not evidence of your claim the war lasted nearly three years and many were sunk over time or beached get this fact straight retard THERE WAS ONE SUNK AND ONE ONLY at pearl

Your pic of the statue toppling did not prove anything whatsoever other than it was pulled down and a crowd was there you proved nothing and are engaging in nothing more than mental masturbation because you lack the ability to think logically.

Go back to school boy you need it

[Soupnazi]

yes you have the maturity of a little boy and it is pathetic you believe in science fiction and comic book tales you offer no evidence you ignore science and logic and allow yourself to fall for tantalizing stories all of whjich have been disproven.

You are wrong and proven wrong your entire stroy in all cases has been ruined wrecked and destroyed by others humiliating you and proving yourself to be a dunce.

read this carefully BOY you offered no fact watsoever

you offered no proof whatsoever

you offered no evidence whatsoever

History and evidece and proof and facts make you a complete idiot.

A picture of a minisub on a beach is not evidence of your claim the war lasted nearly three years and many were sunk over time or beached get this fact straight retard THERE WAS ONE SUNK AND ONE ONLY at pearl

Your pic of the statue toppling did not prove anything whatsoever other than it was pulled down and a crowd was there you proved nothing and are engaging in nothing more than mental masturbation because you lack the ability to think logically.

Go back to school boy you need it
One more time boy lynch' testimony before congress does not dispute me it flat out contradicts you she was in synch with what I said you dumbass try reading it and put down your comic books

[Soupnazi]

Children, especially in the past, have kept abuse secret, even to their graves.

to say that 'national security' is the only or even the most compelling reason to keep a secret is absurd.

I clearly stated that yes sometimes idividuals can keep secrets but it is an exception not the norm.

Yes some children have done as you describe especially if they die young , however the more common example is that they talk and that is what humans do and we do not keep secrets well at all.

Yes taking an oath with comprehension of the criminal consequences of exposing secrets is one of the most compeling reasons to keep a secret.

But , even this is not compelling enough , even the military and agencies of government understand that secrets have a very very short lifespan and someone will leak them. This is why , for example, that codes are changed so frequently new ones created almost daily because they WILL be CRACKED very soon after being used . Most often cracked by the simple expedient of finding someone to hand you the key to them.

We catch spies often within our government including within the highest ranks of government. FBI spy catcher who are spies not to mention people close to the president who were know spies and traitors proven by the army's venona files which incidentally proved that mccarthy was right years after his death.

Yes many loyal people do manage to keep secrets in government service but the number of people who betray that oath is shocking and they do so for unlimited reasons , sometimes because they think the government is wrong and they are serving a higher cause by speaking out , blowing the whistle , or just plain signing like a canary.

O the other hand one of the most compelling reasons for exposing a secret is when it involves a crime. Oath or no Oath when people know something which is illegal they are far more likely to talk . As I said earlier they'll tell a freind or relative or confidant if only to boast or clear a conscience.

When two or more people are in on such a secret it is a conspiracy. Conspiracies are real they happen every day . Two people selling drugs on a ghetto street corner are committing a conspiracy. But like those two small time crooks real conspiracies NEVER last long. The drooling idiot blackas named a few real conspiracies . Gulf of tonkin , watergate, iran contra.

What happened in those cases ? The secret never lasted long for one thing . Someone talked and blew each one wide open. One was an excuse to start a war which caused the nation years of agony and moved LBJ to step down rather that run again. The second destroyed the nixon presidency over a trivial incompetent attempt at B&E and again one person started talking. Finally one nearly ruined the Reagan administration and again it started when one person started talking rather than take one for the team.

I never said anything in terms of absolutes there are none . It is possible that some conspiracies have been kept with some success, Jimmy Hoffa comes to mind, Butt hat is the wild exception the overwhelming norm is they will never last long particularly when one is as spectacular as a lunar landing, presidential assassination or 911.

[BlackAsCoal]

yes you have the maturity of a little boy and it is pathetic you believe in science fiction and comic book tales you offer no evidence you ignore science and logic and allow yourself to fall for tantalizing stories all of whjich have been disproven.

You are wrong and proven wrong your entire stroy in all cases has been ruined wrecked and destroyed by others humiliating you and proving yourself to be a dunce.

read this carefully BOY you offered no fact watsoever

you offered no proof whatsoever

you offered no evidence whatsoever

History and evidece and proof and facts make you a complete idiot.

A picture of a minisub on a beach is not evidence of your claim the war lasted nearly three years and many were sunk over time or beached get this fact straight retard THERE WAS ONE SUNK AND ONE ONLY at pearl

Your pic of the statue toppling did not prove anything whatsoever other than it was pulled down and a crowd was there you proved nothing and are engaging in nothing more than mental masturbation because you lack the ability to think logically.

Go back to school boy you need it

:lmao2:

You're not really worth a response .. but I'm going to because you have to be the stupidest motherfucker on this site. I like that.

You are proof positive of everything I've said about 9/11 .. one would have to be a moron to believe .. like you.

WHATEVER you do .. don't stop posting to me and demonstrting your massive brain power. I LOVE it .. then I get to do shit like this ...

"A picture of a minisub on a beach is not evidence of your claim the war lasted nearly three years and many were sunk over time or beached

Oh really .. this goes along with the picture

Midget Japanese submarine beached at Bellows Field, Hawaii, after the attack on Pearl Harbor of Dec. 7, 1941. (12/07/1941)
http://history1900s.about.com/library/photos/blyph20.htm

If you had a brain you could check the veracity .. oh wait, too many syllables for you .. you could check the truth of the picture by typing "midget sub beached bellows field hawaii 1941" into your google.

Damn you're stupid .. but much fun.

.. and your repeated use of "boy" was not missed .. simply hilarious .. only puts the icing on your foolish display of your own ignorance.

Soupnazi, eh?

:lmao2:

"go back to school" ??? .. I have a degree .. how 'bout you there soupy? I say that's not even possible .. you're too fucking dumb. Can't even follow the bouncing ball. :)

[Independent Harry]

yes you have the maturity of a little boy and it is pathetic you believe in science fiction and comic book tales you offer no evidence you ignore science and logic and allow yourself to fall for tantalizing stories all of whjich have been disproven.

You are wrong and proven wrong your entire stroy in all cases has been ruined wrecked and destroyed by others humiliating you and proving yourself to be a dunce.

read this carefully BOY you offered no fact watsoever

you offered no proof whatsoever

you offered no evidence whatsoever

History and evidece and proof and facts make you a complete idiot.

A picture of a minisub on a beach is not evidence of your claim the war lasted nearly three years and many were sunk over time or beached get this fact straight retard THERE WAS ONE SUNK AND ONE ONLY at pearl

Your pic of the statue toppling did not prove anything whatsoever other than it was pulled down and a crowd was there you proved nothing and are engaging in nothing more than mental masturbation because you lack the ability to think logically.

Go back to school boy you need it

You're the only one that hasn't offered any proof...i see no links, no outside sources verifying anything you've said. Are you serious dude? I mean, are you this dumb, or are you playing stupid?

[Soupnazi]

:lmao2:

You're not really worth a response .. but I'm going to because you have to be the stupidest motherfucker on this site. I like that.

You are proof positive of everything I've said about 9/11 .. one would have to be a moron to believe .. like you.

WHATEVER you do .. don't stop posting to me and demonstrting your massive brain power. I LOVE it .. then I get to do shit like this ...

"A picture of a minisub on a beach is not evidence of your claim the war lasted nearly three years and many were sunk over time or beached

Oh really .. this goes along with the picture

Midget Japanese submarine beached at Bellows Field, Hawaii, after the attack on Pearl Harbor of Dec. 7, 1941. (12/07/1941)
http://history1900s.about.com/library/photos/blyph20.htm

If you had a brain you could check the veracity .. oh wait, too many syllables for you .. you could check the truth of the picture by typing "midget sub beached bellows field hawaii 1941" into your google.

Damn you're stupid .. but much fun.

.. and your repeated use of "boy" was not missed .. simply hilarious .. only puts the icing on your foolish display of your own ignorance.

Soupnazi, eh?

:lmao2:

"go back to school" ??? .. I have a degree .. how 'bout you there soupy? I say that's not even possible .. you're too fucking dumb. Can't even follow the bouncing ball. :)
Your mail order diploma is meaningless you are uneducated gullible and naive. You have proven that but nothing else your pompous immediately insulting attitude proves your insecurity and weakness.

You have NOT posted any evidence proof and facts until you do you only have childish insults because you have been crushed

[Soupnazi]

You're the only one that hasn't offered any proof...i see no links, no outside sources verifying anything you've said. Are you serious dude? I mean, are you this dumb, or are you playing stupid?
I have n fact boy and so have others you are merely another one who hates having his delusions proven to be delusions so shut up and deal with it . I stated fact and you know it too bad for you

[Independent Harry]

Well, that's not so hard to comprehend!

People with a profound sense of love for their country will usually display an equally profound sense of loyalty. An oath given under these circumstances would be infinitely more respected than an undertaking not to give up a conspiracy.

If you can't understand the difference between the two then there is really little hope that you could ever be considered as someone who could be trusted to uphold a principle.....Any principle!

He made a statement that unoquivicaly said, that people who do not take oahts of office are pyschologically compelled to give up the secret and it is impossible for them to keep.

So you're saying that Bush has a profound sense of love for the country as have all people who have taken an oath to office, and in that time, not one of those people have ever broken that oath?

I think you're crazy...regardless. Yes a profound sense of love for something may cause you to better keep a secret along with an oath. What if you thought what you were doing was in th ebest interests of your country. Like war with Iraq. Which the PNAC was pushing for, for many many years. And along with their Machiavellian line of reasoning thought that it would serve the country to be in that war by any means necessary. That would include formulating an attack on your own country. Because there though process and the foudnation of their philosophical past states the ends are justified by the means...so then yes I could see how 911 would be kept a secret in that context...

The links provide the context for the neocon philosophy...

40listserv.aol.com/msg122416.html+neo+con+philosophy+and+machiavelli&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us


http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:V2VaTTdGV4MJ:saywhen.wordpress.com/2007/07/24/what-is-the-neo-con-philosophy/+neo+con+philosophy+and+machiavelli&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us

theres more if you don't believe...

[disrupter]

Child abuse is driven by our anthropological natures.
Changes in social/legal pressures just alters whether people bother to hide what they do or not, not, with few exceptions, whether they commit acts or not.

The statistics are probably roughly the same for how many acts are committed, so the only variance is in who society, families & the law vilifies/blames for it.

It is a statistical certainty that in the past much [virtually all?] of this activity was never reported.
Most often the victim was considered the focus of the shame & dishonor.
The incest impregnated girl was labeled a whore, while the male parentage was unknown.

[Independent Harry]

I have n fact boy and so have others you are merely another one who hates having his delusions proven to be delusions so shut up and deal with it . I stated fact and you know it too bad for you

please show a post where you have provided a link here. It seems like you get off on calling people boy...maybe you should re-evaluate your thought process.

[Soupnazi]

please show a post where you have provided a link here. It seems like you get off on calling people boy...maybe you should re-evaluate your thought process.
No you should develop a thought process to begin with you have none. Links are meaningless kiddoe you can provide links proving elvis lives or the world is flat. Put down the joystick and try to develop a brain

[Independent Harry]

No you should develop a thought process to begin with you have none. Links are meaningless kiddoe you can provide links proving elvis lives or the world is flat. Put down the joystick and try to develop a brain

So you are then saying that I should take everything you say at face value, without any fact checking. like the sinking of one japanese submarine at peral harbor, that was proven to be false...or how do you want to work this. What are you credentials on the subjects we are discussing, maybe that would give some voracity to your argument. I mean, what are you offering other than personal insight, that is based on facts that you have gathered from where?

You see my dilemma. How can I substantiate anything that you say is authentic, you have given me nothing to go on here. Other than slinging insults, which is what usually happens when someone can't actually back up what they are saying with fact...

[disrupter]

We are to accept that Soupnazi is now the self-proclaimed oracle?

Thank god i am an atheist.

The quality of oracles just ain't what it used to be. ha, ha

[Binky]

Everytime I see pix of 9/11, another piece of my soul dies. Please stop posting so many of them. I remember all too well the events of that day. I don't need to keep seeing the pic's on the screen as there's a permanent pic in the forefront of my mind.:(

[Independent Harry]

Everytime I see pix of 9/11, another piece of my soul dies. Please stop posting so many of them. I remember all too well the events of that day. I don't need to keep seeing the pic's on the screen as there's a permanent pic in the forefront of my mind.:(

then don't look at them...

[Soupnazi]

So you are then saying that I should take everything you say at face value, without any fact checking. like the sinking of one japanese submarine at peral harbor, that was proven to be false...or how do you want to work this. What are you credentials on the subjects we are discussing, maybe that would give some voracity to your argument. I mean, what are you offering other than personal insight, that is based on facts that you have gathered from where?

You see my dilemma. How can I substantiate anything that you say is authentic, you have given me nothing to go on here. Other than slinging insults, which is what usually happens when someone can't actually back up what they are saying with fact...

This is precisely what BLACKAS did I merely responded he proved nothing and disputed othing with any fact whatsoever he made the accusation and failed to offer a shred of proof I stated the negative in response to him and one cannot prove a negative one more time go back to school little one.

BTW you never objected to his insults which he began flinging before ayone else because he offered NOTHING else he proved nothing I said wrong onjly that he is an ass with no intellect

[Independent Harry]

This is precisely what BLACKAS did I merely responded he proved nothing and disputed othing with any fact whatsoever he made the accusation and failed to offer a shred of proof I stated the negative in response to him and one cannot prove a negative one more time go back to school little one.

BTW you never objected to his insults which he began flinging before ayone else because he offered NOTHING else he proved nothing I said wrong onjly that he is an ass with no intellect

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. You stated that people do not keep secrets unless they are in oath to office. It is up to you to substantiate that claim. Until then it is nothing, but dribble.

So you're telling me that the evidence he provided showing there were 5 japanese subs sank and not 1 was not in actuallity evdience? So what actually constitutes evidence. Because lets face it, until we get to that, until we can agree on a common ground as simple as evidence. This debate will enver go anywhere. So let's start with something simple. What to you would be sufficient evidence to prove the number of subs that were sank prior to pearl harbor?

http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/HURL/midget.html

number of questions still remain over this submarine, which was the first casualty in the war between the U.S. and Japan. Why did the Naval command at Pearl Harbor apparently ignore a confirmed enemy sinking right off its harbor mouth? Why did the Japanese put so much faith in the five midget submarines that they were allowed to lead the Pearl Harbor attack? After all five of the attacking midget submarines were lost in their first engagement and shown to be ineffective, why did the Japanese Imperial Navy go on to build hundreds of midget submarines most of which were never used? Regarding the site and vessel itself: Should it ever be raised? What is its structural integrity and deterioration rate? How stable is its position on the seabed? How can we best learn from the site and preserve it for future generations?

Would that constitute sufficient evidence? Something from the Hawaii Undersea Research Laboratory? If this doesn't constitute evidence please let's agree on what does. Only then can we get to your thesis, or people not being able to keep any secrets outside of secrets they take in oath of office.

[Independent Harry]

This is precisely what BLACKAS did I merely responded he proved nothing and disputed othing with any fact whatsoever he made the accusation and failed to offer a shred of proof I stated the negative in response to him and one cannot prove a negative one more time go back to school little one.

BTW you never objected to his insults which he began flinging before ayone else because he offered NOTHING else he proved nothing I said wrong onjly that he is an ass with no intellect

Sigh, i see now, you're trying to play logic circles. let's go back, please explain what the negative you stated was. Because there are many side arguments I want to be sure I'm focusing on the correct statement.

[Scumbag]

He made a statement that unoquivicaly said, that people who do not take oahts of office are pyschologically compelled to give up the secret and it is impossible for them to keep. Damned if I can find that statement. You made that up!

So you're saying that Bush has a profound sense of love for the country as have all people who have taken an oath to office, and in that time, not one of those people have ever broken that oath? Did I say that? I don't remember saying that! You made that up, too!

Yes a profound sense of love for something may cause you to better keep a secret along with an oath. What if you thought what you were doing was in th ebest interests of your country. Like war with Iraq. Which the PNAC was pushing for, for many many years. And along with their Machiavellian line of reasoning thought that it would serve the country to be in that war by any means necessary. That would include formulating an attack on your own country. Because there though process and the foudnation of their philosophical past states the ends are justified by the means...so then yes I could see how 911 would be kept a secret in that context...That might apply for one or two people but not for the thousands neccessary for such a large scale cover up!

[disrupter]

911 probably could have been carried out by 100 people. Maybe fewer.
Insider people who wouldn't have their actions questioned.

[Soupnazi]

Sigh, i see now, you're trying to play logic circles. let's go back, please explain what the negative you stated was. Because there are many side arguments I want to be sure I'm focusing on the correct statement.

Very simple there is no evidence of an inside job ( 911)

[disrupter]

Where is the evidence that it WAS carried out as told to us on our TVs?

[Independent Harry]

Very simple there is no evidence of an inside job ( 911)

So I see you ignored my first post. Typical. But lets take this statement. There is no evidence of an inside job. Well, that statement while you can't prove it, is logically false. There is evidence. But, you have dismissed the evidence as non evidence. So to you, no matter how much evidence is produced. Regardless of factual accuracy, it won't be evidence. Its why you are a human being, you rationalize the emotional decisions you make in your life with logic. therefore thinking you made a logical decision.

[Soupnazi]

Where is the evidence that it WAS carried out as told to us on our TVs?

You mean other than the thousands of eye witnesses, the admissions from bin laden, the planes we all saw crash , the wreckage , the phone calls from passengers?

wow where were you that day?

[Soupnazi]

So I see you ignored my first post. Typical. But lets take this statement. There is no evidence of an inside job. Well, that statement while you can't prove it, is logically false. There is evidence. But, you have dismissed the evidence as non evidence. So to you, no matter how much evidence is produced. Regardless of factual accuracy, it won't be evidence. Its why you are a human being, you rationalize the emotional decisions you make in your life with logic. therefore thinking you made a logical decision.
There is no such evidence and no I an not ignoring it because there is none to ignore I am not calling others pseudo fiction non evidence it IS NOT evidence

[Independent Harry]

Damned if I can find that statement. You made that up!

Did I say that? I don't remember saying that! You made that up, too!

That might apply for one or two people but not for the thousands neccessary for such a large scale cover up!

why would you need thousands of people? Do demolition companies employ thousands of people. Do you need thousands of people to fly planes? What jobs would there be for these thousdands of people? Please explain how you arrivced at this large number of people necessary to perpretrate such a thing.

I never said you said that statement, that's a paraphrase of a statement soupnazi made, then you agreed with him. Go back and learn reading comprehension...

[Soupnazi]

why would you need thousands of people? Do demolition companies employ thousands of people. Do you need thousands of people to fly planes? What jobs would there be for these thousdands of people? Please explain how you arrivced at this large number of people necessary to perpretrate such a thing.

I never said you said that statement, that's a paraphrase of a statement soupnazi made, then you agreed with him. Go back and learn reading comprehension...
Yes demolitions companies contract scores or even hundreds of people depending on he size of the job . For this ludicrous scenario to work many teams of men would have required hundreds of hours and truck loads of materials to pep the buildings for demolition. The material alone would have filled all of the elevator shafts in the towers and in occupied several floors which would have had to be closed off. Yet somehow no one noticed all of this out of the tens of thousands who worked in the towers. Then of course the drivers the the coordinators the secretaries of this mysterious team of demolition experts would have been on the know. Those involved in arranging the hijacking and disposing of the passengers etc . The administration itself and the multitude of staff which support the admin all would have been required to sit on this massive criminal secret. This easily reaches into the thousands and is impossible.

[Scumbag]

911 probably could have been carried out by 100 people. Maybe fewer.
Insider people who wouldn't have their actions questioned.
Probably, maybe, probably not, maybe not.

911 probably could have been carried out by the fairies in the bottom of your garden. Insider fairies who wouldn't have their actions questioned. ( probably, maybe because they don't exist)

[Scumbag]

why would you need thousands of people? Do demolition companies employ thousands of people. Do you need thousands of people to fly planes? What jobs would there be for these thousdands of people? Please explain how you arrivced at this large number of people necessary to perpretrate such a thing.Oh, dear!

Airport security companies
The passengers and crews of all flights who were never found and were therefore never there.
building maintenance crews
explosives suppliers
Engineers
Architects
Logistics companies
Transport companies
Building security companies
Pilot trainers
Emergency services organizers
The entire Saudi government
The Immigration Department
The NYFD
The CIA
The FBI
The NSA
Al quaeda
Should I go on?


I never said you said that statement, that's a paraphrase of a statement soupnazi made, then you agreed with him. Go back and learn reading comprehension...
Not a paraphrase at all...... "So, you're saying" .....is not paraphrasing...it's an interpretation, your interpretation and it has nothing to do with the intent of the author.

So you're saying that its only possible to keep secrets that you have bound yourself by oath in service to a government office, and all other secrets are pyschologically impossible to keep?...........

So you're saying that Bush has a profound sense of love for the country as have all people who have taken an oath to office, and in that time, not one of those people have ever broken that oath?.............

So you are then saying that I should take everything you say at face value, without any fact checking..........

So you're telling me that the evidence he provided showing there were 5 japanese subs sank and......

[Independent Harry]

Oh, dear!

Airport security companies - how woudl they have to be in on it?
The passengers and crews of all flights who were never found and were therefore never there. - how about they were all killed...didn't have to be in on it...
building maintenance crews - how would they have to be in on it? how about the guy that witnessed explosions in the basement of the tower...
explosives suppliers - I'm the sure the US government couldn't order explosives without the supplier knwoing exactly what it was for...
Engineers - how would they have to be in on it?
Architects - how would they have to be in on it
Logistics companies - how would they have to be in on it
Transport companies - how would they have to be in on it
Building security companies - owned by someone in Bush's family...
Pilot trainers - how woudl they have to be in on it
Emergency services organizers - how would they have to be in on it
The entire Saudi government - that's quite a claim, same question
The Immigration Department -right...like people can't just walk across the border
The NYFD - how would they have to be in on it?
The CIA - the entire CIA? Why the entire CIA? does the entire CIA know about everything the CIA does on a day to day basis?
The FBI - how would they have to be in on it?
The NSA - how would they have to be in on it?
Al quaeda - isn't the official story that they were in on it?
Should I go on? - I think you get a kick out of making shit up...



Not a paraphrase at all...... "So, you're saying" .....is not paraphrasing...it's an interpretation, your interpretation and it has nothing to do with the intent of the author.

you tool, i have asked him repeatedly if this is what he is saying and he has not denied it.

[Soupnazi]

you tool, i have asked him repeatedly if this is what he is saying and he has not denied it.

No one witnessed explosions in the buildings, bush family did not own the security company and yes nearly all the people on this list would have to be in on it.

Building maintenance janitors and security would have seen people rigging the demo.

Logistics people would have been needed to drive the demo materials to the sight.

The various law enforcement would have found evidence and would not have remained silent.

Someone would have had to get rid of or shut up the passengers and crew of the air craft which requires many people and could not be kept silent.

jesus you people need to grow up no conspiracy was possible just like in JFK and the lunar landing

[BlackAsCoal]

"No one witnessed explosions in the buildings"

Oh really ?

Let's ask a true American hero, William Rodriquez, the last man out.

Rodriguez - a 20-year veteran custodial staffer - had the only available master key to the WTC complex when the first plane struck. He was the last survivor of the North tower collapse.

"On that tragic morning Rodriguez found himself running 30 minutes behind for work. He called his boss, who told him to get there as soon as he could. Because he was late, he would have to go to an office in sub-basement 1 to clock in. At least 14 other people were in the office when suddenly a massive explosion occurred beneath their feet. "Seconds after the first massive explosion below in the basement, I hear another explosion from way above. Although I was unaware at the time, this was the airplane hitting the tower, it occurred moments after the first explosion."

A co-worker Felipe David stormed into the basement office with severe burns, skin hanging from his face, hands, and arms; screaming "explosion! explosion! explosion!" David had been standing in front of a freight elevator close to the office when fire followed the elevator shaft up and leapt upon him causing terrible burns. "That day I was in the basement in sub-level 1 sometime after 8:30am. Everything happened so fast, everything moved so fast. The building started shaking after I heard the explosion below, dust was flying everywhere and all of a sudden it got real hot. I threw myself onto the floor, covered my face because I felt like I was burned. I sat there for a couple of seconds on the floor and felt like I was going to die, saying to myself 'God, please give me strength,'" released David in a 2002 interview.

Had he not been late Rodriguez would have been at the top of the North Tower beginning his normal routine having breakfast with friends at the Windows of the World, a cafe at the pinnacle of the building. "It was a miracle. If I arrived on time, like always, I'd probably be dead. I would have been up at the top floors like every morning," said Rodriguez in an interview with Greg Szymanski of The American Free Press.

Rodriguez, who knew the complex very, very well, escorted David to an ambulance outside the underground facilities and then returned to show others the way out. Once he returned he found Salvatore Giambanco and another unidentified man stuck in a basement elevator. Rodriguez managed to pry open the elevator, enter the shaft, and call out to the men below, who yelled back they ere at risk of drowning - thigh high in run-off from the sprinkler systems. Rodriguez returned to the parking garage where he was able to commandeer a long extension ladder. He then maneuvered himself and the ladder into the darkened shaft of the elevator to lower the ladder down to Giambanco and the unidentified man.

Rodriguez then lead these two men to safety, and was then ordered by police not to return to the North Tower. Being in charge of only one of five master keys for WTC 1, he felt his return vital in assisting emergency crews especially fire fighters in accessing the various parts of the building they would need to go to save lives some of which may be his friends. So he rushed past police heading again into the towering inferno. Once he located fire crews, he lead them upwards unlocking doors, they had been hacking through.

As they made their way up the stairwell to the 33rd floor, Rodriguez heard a series of small explosions going off between the 20th and 30th floors. Once they reached the 39th floor fire fighters told him that he must turn back because he was not an emergency worker and was endangering his own safety. The crew leader ordered him to make his descent to the 27th floor and to do what he could for a female quadriplegic they had passed on their way up. After that as soon as possible he was to get himself out of the building. As he started downward Rodriguez heard explosions from the South Tower not realizing that it had collapsed. Once he reached the 27th floor, he found an emergency crew with gurney trying to assist the woman. He helped them carry her out of the building, leaving her with an available ambulance. Shortly thereafter the North Tower began to collapse.

Had he been in the South Tower he would surely have died, although the South Tower was the 2nd building hit, it was the first to collapse 56 minutes after being struck by flight 175. At 10:28, 1 hour and 42 minutes after being struck by flight 11, the North Tower collapsed in 'demolition' uniformity at breakneck speed giving Rodriguez only time enough to dive under a fire truck. Rodriguez only hoped the truck would be strong enough to protect him from being crushed by falling debris. He survived the collapse and was later dug out by the fire crews that also survived the collapsing towers.

Rodriguez lost two hundred of his closest friends and associates on that day. He was labeled a hero by all that had encountered him and did numerous interviews with the many different news agencies, domestically and abroad. NBC spent a full day at his house taping his comments. Thinking his testimony important to enable investigators to uncover more details about the crime, he presented his story to all who would listen. He even testified before the 9-11 commission oddly enough behind closed doors. Eventually, years passed, Rodriguez never saw his tale aired on the mainstream news in America, beyond just a few second sound bites. He wasn't seeking fame and fortune, but he did have questions which to him were never fully explained like "How could a jetliner hit 90 floors above and burn a man's arms and face to a crisp in the basement below within seconds of impact?"

Bill Manning, editor of Fire Engineering, a 125-year-old-monthly firefighting trade magazine with ties to the New York City Fire Department, wrote in an editor's opinion piece in the January 2002 issue called "$elling Out the Investigation", "Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the 'official investigation' blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil Engineers is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure." He also called for an immediate stop to the removal of steel from the site of ground zero saying the steel from the site should be preserved as a crime scene so that investigators can examine what caused the collapse and pass that knowledge on to future generations of engineers. The editorial continues, "A growing number of fire protection engineers have theorized that 'the structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers," the editorial stated.

Szymanski says of Rodriguez, "His eyewitness account, backed up by at least 14 people at the scene with him, isn't speculation or conjecture. It isn't a story that takes a network out on a journalistic limb. It's a story that can be backed up, a story that can be verified with hospital records and testimony from many others. It's a story about 14 people who felt and heard the same explosion and even saw Rodriguez, moments after the airplane hit, take David to safety, after he was burnt so bad from the basement explosion flesh was hanging from his face and both arms."
http://www.populistamerica.com/the_ghosts_of_9_11

What Rodriquez and the pthers with him heard was the building being imploded. This is also colaborated by accounts by NYFD and NYPD at the time .. BEFORE they were hit with Gag Orders.

If the argument made is "eyewitnesses" are important, then surely the eyewitnesses who were there inside the building and the eyewitness accounts of first responders who were there must have even more credibility and value .. but it won't to the morons who swallow.

They'll frame this valiant man as some kind of communist. Shit, why not bring back communism as an excuse for ignorance.

[BlackAsCoal]

"the phone calls from passengers?

Ever try to use your cellphone from space .. particularly back in 2001?

It's highly unlikely that any call would have gotten through .. and as described by an ATT&T spokesperson, it would be a "fluke."

" According to Alexa Graf, a spokesman of AT&T, commenting in the immediate wake of the 9/11 attacks:

"it was almost a fluke that the [9/11] calls reached their destinations... From high altitudes, the call quality is not very good, and most callers will experience drops. Although calls are not reliable, callers can pick up and hold calls for a little while below a certain altitude"
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO408B.html

[Independent Harry]

No one witnessed explosions in the buildings, bush family did not own the security company and yes nearly all the people on this list would have to be in on it.

Building maintenance janitors and security would have seen people rigging the demo.

Logistics people would have been needed to drive the demo materials to the sight.

The various law enforcement would have found evidence and would not have remained silent.

Someone would have had to get rid of or shut up the passengers and crew of the air craft which requires many people and could not be kept silent.

jesus you people need to grow up no conspiracy was possible just like in JFK and the lunar landing

Well you're wrong about assertion #1...which again simple reseasrch can easily show you. Thats two things so far you've been wrong about, how many other of your assertions are wrong?

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911security.html

Marvin P. Bush, the president’s younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport. The company, Burns noted, was backed by KuwAm, a Kuwaiti-American investment firm on whose board Marvin Burns also served. [Utne]
According to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center "up to the day the buildings fell down."

[BlackAsCoal]

Well you're wrong about assertion #1...which again simple reseasrch can easily show you. Thats two things so far you've been wrong about, how many other of your assertions are wrong?

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911security.html

Marvin P. Bush, the president’s younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport. The company, Burns noted, was backed by KuwAm, a Kuwaiti-American investment firm on whose board Marvin Burns also served. [Utne]
According to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center "up to the day the buildings fell down."

He didn't know that.

What has been dempnstrated in this thread isn't exactly what the swallowers of 9/11 claimed it would be. It has indeed demonstrated that you'd have tp be a moron to believe the fairy-tale, and the morons have no ability to answer any of the thousnads of sane, rational unanswered questions. In fact, they don't know ANYTHING beyond what they've been told to believe .. as you just demonstrated.

Hell, we're still stuck on the bullshit story of the melting buildings .. we haven't even gotten to the bullshit at the Pentagon.

Of all the pictures of the events of 9/11 .. this one is most puzzling ...

http://911truth.tripod.com/stool.jpg

This was after the roof gave in .. which didn't happen until a half-hour after the impact .. whcih is strange itself given that a 757 is almost as tall as the Pentagon .. but the left side of the building isn't even charred. There isn't even soot in the rooms .. AND an open book, PAPER book, is clearly seen lying on a stool, WOODEN stool, and neither have been burned.

Two floors up, you can clearly see a monitor, PLASTIC monitor, sitting on a file cabinet .. not knocked to the ground, glass still intact, unburned.

So according to the fairy tale, airplanes ran into the GIANT Towers and the fuel caused such tremendous fire and heat they melted giant buildings .. and at the same time .. a similar airplane carrying about the same amount of fuel, flying at about the same speed, crashed into a much smaller building, did not melt it and din't even burn the pages of a paper book, nor melt plastic, nor burn wood, knock a monitor off a file cabinet, oe evn burn the rooms all RIGHT NEXT TO THE IMPACT SITE.

ONLY a moron would believe that bullshit.

[Independent Harry]

He didn't know that.

What has been dempnstrated in this thread isn't exactly what the swallowers of 9/11 claimed it would be. It has indeed demonstrated that you'd have tp be a moron to believe the fairy-tale, and the morons have no ability to answer any of the thousnads of sane, rational unanswered questions. In fact, they don't know ANYTHING beyond what they've been told to believe .. as you just demonstrated.

Hell, we're still stuck on the bullshit story of the melting buildings .. we haven't even gotten to the bullshit at the Pentagon.

Of all the pictures of the events of 9/11 .. this one is most puzzling ...

http://911truth.tripod.com/stool.jpg

This was after the roof gave in .. which didn't happen until a half-hour after the impact .. whcih is strange itself given that a 757 is almost as tall as the Pentagon .. but the left side of the building isn't even charred. There isn't even soot in the rooms .. AND an open book, PAPER book, is clearly seen lying on a stool, WOODEN stool, and neither have been burned.

Two floors up, you can clearly see a monitor, PLASTIC monitor, sitting on a file cabinet .. not knocked to the ground, glass still intact, unburned.

So according to the fairy tale, airplanes ran into the GIANT Towers and the fuel caused such tremendous fire and heat they melted giant buildings .. and at the same time .. a similar airplane carrying about the same amount of fuel, flying at about the same speed, crashed into a much smaller building, did not melt it and din't even burn the pages of a paper book, nor melt plastic, nor burn wood, knock a monitor off a file cabinet, oe evn burn the rooms all RIGHT NEXT TO THE IMPACT SITE.

ONLY a moron would believe that bullshit.

Just a quick FYI, the image didnt link right...

that's the thing. Pepole dismiss things casually, they say the questions have all been answered and if they haven't they are unimportant to the central theme. Here another one of my favorites...

http://www.ae911truth.org/info/12

Aug 22, 2007

Former Chief of NIST's Fire Science Division Calls for Independent Review of World Trade Center Investigation — Alan Miller

James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), has called for an independent review of NIST's investigation into the collapses of the World Trade Center Towers on 9/11.

Original Content at www.opednews.com
August 21, 2007
Dr. Quintiere made his plea during his presentation, "Questions on the WTC Investigations" at the 2007 World Fire Safety Conference. "I wish that there would be a peer review of this," he said, referring to the NIST investigation. "I think all the records that NIST has assembled should be archived. I would really like to see someone else take a look at what they've done; both structurally and from a fire point of view."
"I think the official conclusion that NIST arrived at is questionable," explained Dr. Quintiere. "Let's look at real alternatives that might have been the cause of the collapse of the World Trade Towers and how that relates to the official cause and what's the significance of one cause versus another."
Dr. Quintiere, one of the world's leading fire science researchers and safety engineers, also encouraged his audience of fellow researchers and engineers to scientifically re-examine the WTC collapses. "I hope to convince you to perhaps become 'Conspiracy Theorists', but in a proper way," he said.
In his hour-long presentation, Dr. Quintiere discussed many elements of NIST's investigation that he found problematic. He emphasized, "In every investigation I've taken part in, the key has been to establish a timeline. And the timeline is established by witness accounts, by information from alarm systems, by any video that you might have of the event, and then by calculations. And you try to put all of this together. And if your calculations are consistent with some of these hard facts, then perhaps you can have some comfort in the results of your calculations. I have not seen a timeline placed in the NIST report."
Dr. Quintiere also expressed his frustration at NIST's failure to provide a report on the third skyscraper that collapsed on 9/11, World Trade Center Building 7. "And that building was not hit by anything," noted Dr. Quintiere. "It's more important to take a look at that. Maybe there was damage by the debris falling down that played a significant role. But other than that you had fires burning a long time without fire department intervention. And firefighters were in that building. I have yet to see any kind of story about what they saw. What was burning? Were photographs taken? Nothing!"
World Trade Center Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories, and would have been the tallest building in 33 states. Although it was not hit by an airplane on 9/11, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 8 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11. In the 6 years since 9/11, NIST has failed to provide any explanation for the collapse. In addition to NIST's failure to provide an explanation, absolutely no mention of Building 7's collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks." [ To watch a video of the collapse, click here www.whatreallyhappened.com ]
Dr. Quintiere said he originally "had high hopes" that NIST would do a good job with the investigation. "They're the central government lab for fire. There are good people there and they can do a good job. But what I also thought they would do is to enlist the service of the ATF [Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives], which has an investigation force and a laboratory of their own for fire. And I thought they would put people out on the street and get gumshoe-type information. What prevented all of this? I think it's the legal structure that cloaks the Commerce Department and therefore NIST. And so, instead of lawyers as if they were acting on a civil case trying to get depositions and information subpoenaed, those lawyers did the opposite and blocked everything."
In his presentation, Dr. Quintiere also criticized NIST's repeated failures to formally respond to serious questions raised about its conclusions regarding the WTC building collapses and the process it employed to arrive at those conclusions. "I sat through all of the NIST hearings. I went to all of their advisory board meetings, as an observer. I made comments at all."
Responding to a comment from a NIST representative in the audience, Dr. Quintiere said, "I found that throughout your whole investigation it was very difficult to get a clear answer. And when anyone went to your advisory panel meetings or hearings, where they were given five minutes to make a statement; they could never ask any questions. And with all the commentary that I put in, and I spent many hours writing things, and it would bore people if I regurgitated all of that here, I never received one formal reply."
Although Dr. Quintiere was strongly critical of NIST's conclusions and its investigatory process, he made it clear he was not a supporter of theories that the Twin Towers were brought down by pre-planted explosives. "If you go to World Trade Center One, nine minutes before its collapse, there was a line of smoke that puffed out. This is one of the basis of the 'conspiracy theories' that says the smoke puffing out all around the building is due to somebody setting off an explosive charge. Well, I think, more likely, it's one of the floors falling down."
Dr. Quintiere summarized the NIST conclusion about the cause of the collapses of the Twin Towers. "It says that the core columns, uninsulated due to the fact that the aircraft stripped off that insulation; they softened in the heat of the fire and shortened and that led to the collapse. They pulled in the external columns and it caused it to buckle. They went on further to say that there would be no collapse if the insulation remained in place."
Dr. Quintiere then presented his and his students' research that contradicts the NIST report and points to a different cause for the collapses; the application of insufficient fire-proofing insulation on the truss rods in the Twin Towers. "I suggest that there's an equally justifiable theory and that's the trusses fail as they are heated by the fire with the insulation intact. These are two different conclusions and the accountability for each is dramatically different," he said.
Dr. Quintiere's presentation at the World Fire Safety Conference echoed his earlier statement to the U.S. House of Representatives, Committee on Science, on October 26, 2005, during a hearing on "The Investigation of the World Trade Center Collapse: Findings, Recommendations, and Next Steps", at which he stated:
"In my opinion, the WTC investigation by NIST falls short of expectations by not definitively finding cause, by not sufficiently linking recommendations of specificity to cause, by not fully invoking all of their authority to seek facts in the investigation, and by the guidance of government lawyers to deter rather than develop fact finding.
"I have over 35 years of fire research in my experience. I worked in the fire program at NIST for 19 years, leaving as a division chief. I have been at the University of Maryland since. I am a founding member and past-Chair of the International Association for Fire Safety Science—the principal world forum for fire research. ...
"All of these have been submitted to NIST, but never acknowledged or answered. I will list some of these.
1. Why is not the design process of assigning fire protection to the WTC towers fully called out for fault? ...
2. Why were not alternative collapse hypotheses investigated and discussed as NIST had stated repeatedly that they would do? ...
3. Spoliation of a fire scene is a basis for destroying a legal case in an investigation. Most of the steel was discarded, although the key elements of the core steel were demographically labeled. A careful reading of the NIST report shows that they have no evidence that the temperatures they predict as necessary for failure are corroborated by findings of the little steel debris they have. Why hasn't NIST declared that this spoliation of the steel was a gross error?
4. NIST used computer models that they said have never been used in such an application before and are the state of the art. For this they should be commended for their skill. But the validation of these modeling results is in question. Others have computed aspects with different conclusions on the cause mechanism of the collapse. Moreover, it is common in fire investigation to compute a time-line and compare it to known events. NIST has not done that.
5. Testing by NIST has been inconclusive. Although they have done fire tests of the scale of several work stations, a replicate test of at least & [sic] of a WTC floor would have been of considerable value. Why was this not done? ...
6. The critical collapse of WTC 7 is relegated to a secondary role, as its findings will not be complete for yet another year. It was clear at the last NIST Advisory Panel meeting in September [2005] that this date may not be realistic, as NIST has not demonstrated progress here. Why has NIST dragged on this important investigation?"
[ The full text of Dr. Quintiere's statement to the Science Committee can be found at commdocs.house.gov ]
Dr. Quintiere is one of the world's leading fire science researchers and safety engineers. He served in the Fire Science and Engineering Division of NIST for 19 years and rose to the position of Chief of the Division. He left NIST in 1990 to join the faculty of the Department of Fire Protection Engineering at the University of Maryland, where he still serves.
Quintiere is a founding member and Past Chair of the International Association for Fire Safety Science (IAFSS). He is also a Fellow of the Society of Fire Protection Engineering and a Fellow of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers. He has received numerous awards for his contributions to fire science research and engineering, including:
• The Department of Commerce Bronze Medal (1976) and Silver Medal (1982)
• The Howard W. Emmons Lecture Award from the IAFSS in 1986
• The Sjölin Award in 2002 for outstanding contribution to the science of fire safety by the International Forum of Fire Research Directors, NIST
• The 2006 Guise Medal by the National Fire Protection Association
His presentation "Questions on the WTC Investigations" was given twice at the 2007 World Fire Safety Conference; Education Session M21 on June 4 (69 minutes) and Spotlight Session T54 on June 5 (102 minutes). Recordings of the presentations can be purchased from the National Fire Protection Association at www.fleetwoodonsite.com

[disrupter]

But Soupnazi has already drunk the koolaid,

doesn't that mean we are all supposed to too?

[SeedyROM]

"the phone calls from passengers?

Ever try to use your cellphone from space .. particularly back in 2001?

It's highly unlikely that any call would have gotten through .. and as described by an ATT&T spokesperson, it would be a "fluke."

" According to Alexa Graf, a spokesman of AT&T, commenting in the immediate wake of the 9/11 attacks:

"it was almost a fluke that the [9/11] calls reached their destinations... From high altitudes, the call quality is not very good, and most callers will experience drops. Although calls are not reliable, callers can pick up and hold calls for a little while below a certain altitude"
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO408B.html

Cell phones have been proven to work in the air over cities, see the Popular Mechanics report. Evidence exists that easily explains that cell phones work at various altitudes. You are getting details from a dark source hellbent on propoganda. Call Motorola or LG for the facts from honest and legitimate engineering sources. I've used my phone at 21K feet in a King Air 350. You have to be near a city....... 3 cell towers combined have a range of 3 to 6 square miles depending on the terrain.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14944.htm
AMY GOODMAN: Dylan, what about the issue of cell phones?

DYLAN AVERY: The issue of cell phones is that for a majority of Flight 93’s flight, it was flying over cruising altitude, and a number of these -- now, a majority of the phone calls were coming from air phones. But the cell phone calls were coming from cruising altitude. Now, it is pretty much impossible in 2001 to sustain an extended conversation over a cell phone at cruising altitude from a commercial airliner. But, I mean, that's not our strongest evidence. I mean, that’s just one of the many things about that day that don't add up to us.

And we haven't gotten to hear the cockpit voice recorder. We haven't gotten to hear any of these alleged phone calls. I mean, the government is cherry-picking the evidence that it releases to the government. And I feel that if our government was truly attacked by surprise and we had absolutely no inclination of the attacks, they would not be so reticent to release the 84 videos from the Pentagon, the cockpit voice recorder of Flight 93. The list of things that the government is holding from us goes on.

AMY GOODMAN: David Dunbar.

DAVID DUNBAR: With regard to the cell phones, we did what any reporter would do. We talked to experts in the field. And, in fact, cell phones do work at that altitude, up to 35,000 feet and higher. And --




This PM editor appeared on over a dozen TV shows debunking the 9/11 myths.
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/08/08/video-popular-mechanics-editor-debunks-911-myths-on-oreilly/

[Independent Harry]

Cell phones have been proven to work in the air over cities, see the Popular Mechanics report. Evidence exists that easily explains that cell phones work at various altitudes. You are getting details from a dark source hellbent on propoganda. Call Motorola or LG for the facts from honest and legitimate engineering sources. I've used my phone at 21K feet in a King Air 350. You have to be near a city....... 3 cell towers combined have a range of 3 to 6 square miles depending on the terrain.



This PM editor appeared on over a dozen TV shows debunking the 9/11 myths.

cell phone swill sometimes work in the air under 7k feet. The higher you get towards that ceiling, the smaller the chance they will work.

How do I know, everytime i've flown, I've lsitened in to the captains radio com and watched my cell phone signal, as well as tried to make calls. Much to my neighbors dismay. As well, you can see this experiment done, that is an actual expirament, and not PM just saying so...

http://physics911.net/projectachilles

Project Achilles Report Parts One, Two and Three
by A.K. Dewdney, January 23rd 2003
Preliminary low-altitude cellphone experiment


also you can read about various other people's attempts here.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=384

Articles


More Holes in the Official Story:
The 9/11 Cell Phone Calls
by by Michel Chossudovsky
globalresearch, 10 August 2004
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO408B.html


Mother of All Lies About 9/11
Barbara Olson's "Phone Call" From Flight 77
by Joe Vialls, 27 March 2002
http://www.vialls.com/lies911/lies.htm


The Cellphone and Airfone Calls from Flight UA93
by A. K. Dewdney
Detailed analysis
@Physics911
http://www.physics911.net/cellphoneflight93


Project Achilles Report Parts One, Two and Three
by A.K. Dewdney
@Physics911
Results of cell phone tests at various altitudes
http://www.physics911.net/projectachilles.htm


Cell Phone Experiments in Airliners
By Germar Rudolf
vho.org
http://www.vho.org/tr/2003/3/Rudolf271f.html


Guest_librarian_* Oct 20 2006, 01:23 PM Post #4





Guests






Posts and Threads


Debunking 9/11 Myths
Post by Beached
Dec 2, 2006
Beached sets 9/11 Myths straight on Cell Phone Calls at Altitude
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum...dpost&p=6639815


Madeline Sweeney's phone call
Something strange
thread started by Beached
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum...showtopic=1702


Airphone Drops Charges On 9/11/01
No need for records with no billing!
thread started by SwingDangler
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum...showtopic=5688


Guest_librarian_* Oct 20 2006, 01:23 PM Post #5





Guests






Other Resources


Comprehensive list of calls
Compiled by Killtown
http://killtown.911review.org/chart.html#phone_calls


Phone Calls
Missing Evidence About the September 11th Flights
@ 9/11 research
good resource covering calls from all the flights
http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/phonecalls.html

[SeedyROM]

IndependantHarry, show me the truth from non-conspiracy websites pertaining to cell phone use?? I used nonCTNutter sites, there are millions of sites that discuss cell phone use in the air. Cell phones require the use being inside the range of the towers. The problem with your phone may be due to the distance from a city, try experiementing a little more or better yet, reearch the issue from non-biased sources. We are not allowed to use phones, in true 3G countries cell phones are allowed in flight.

[Soupnazi]

"the phone calls from passengers?

Ever try to use your cellphone from space .. particularly back in 2001?

It's highly unlikely that any call would have gotten through .. and as described by an ATT&T spokesperson, it would be a "fluke."

" According to Alexa Graf, a spokesman of AT&T, commenting in the immediate wake of the 9/11 attacks:

"it was almost a fluke that the [9/11] calls reached their destinations... From high altitudes, the call quality is not very good, and most callers will experience drops. Although calls are not reliable, callers can pick up and hold calls for a little while below a certain altitude"
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO408B.html
Yes many used them in 2001 and before in fact it was routine for flight attendants to warn people not to use them as they could potentially interfere with aircraft instruments.

Also planes were carrying passenger phones years before 911 sorry no expert supports you again and many many people recieved phone calls from the passengers

As for the story of rodriguez you have repeated a lie cooked up by theorists sorry he never heard or saw any explosions he heard booms LIKE explosions and only AFTER the impact which is natural for a burning building.

He personally has stated your descriptions of his testimony and statements are lies

[Soupnazi]

But Soupnazi has already drunk the koolaid,

doesn't that mean we are all supposed to too?
The koolaid is being consumed by you people believing in conspiracy theories which have no evidence and are scientifically impossible

[Scumbag]

you tool, i have asked him repeatedly if this is what he is saying and he has not denied it.
You haven't asked if that's what he's saying, dickhead. Youv'e put your own spin on what is being said. There is a difference.

Not denying it doesn't make your spin on it correct, asswipe.

[Scumbag]

"No one witnessed explosions in the buildings"

Oh really ?

Let's ask a true American hero, William Rodriquez, the last man out.


Rodriquez was not the last man out. He says he was but he was not.

As for the so called explosions, here is part of a transcript of Rodriquez's actual statement to NIST.

"The fire, the ball of fire, for example, I was in the basement when the first plane hit the building.
And at that moment, I thought it was an electrical generator that blew up at that moment. A
person comes running into the office saying explosion, explosion, explosion. When I look at this
guy; has all his skin pulled off of his body. Hanging from the top of his fingertips like it was a
glove. And I said, what happened? He said the elevators. What happened was the ball of fire
went down with such a force down the elevator shaft on the 58th – freight elevator, the biggest
freight elevator that we have in the North Tower, it went out with such a force that it broke the
cables. It went down, I think seven flights. The person survived because he was pulled from the
B3 level. But this person, being in front of the doors waiting for the elevator, practically got his
skin vaporized."

You forgot to mention that Later, Rodriquez tried to sue the US government and 150+ others claiming 9/11 was a conspiracy.

In his desparate attempts at notoriety, he turned to conspiracy theories to earn his keep. He had, after all lost his job on 9/11.

http://rodriguezlawsuit.googlepages.com/RodriguezComplaint.pdf

[Independent Harry]

You haven't asked if that's what he's saying, dickhead. Youv'e put your own spin on what is being said. There is a difference.

Not denying it doesn't make your spin on it correct, asswipe.

Then if he didnt' mean what I am saying, what exactly did he mean. You keep arguing semantics, that's how you bullshit something. Let's agree on what he said, what you do you think he meant?

[Independent Harry]

IndependantHarry, show me the truth from non-conspiracy websites pertaining to cell phone use?? I used nonCTNutter sites, there are millions of sites that discuss cell phone use in the air. Cell phones require the use being inside the range of the towers. The problem with your phone may be due to the distance from a city, try experiementing a little more or better yet, reearch the issue from non-biased sources. We are not allowed to use phones, in true 3G countries cell phones are allowed in flight.


Regardless of supposed to or not, I have tried it with every cell phone I've had since 2001 (about 6 different ones). None of them worked above about 7k feet. The data I posted only confirms the experiments I have done.

the actual problem is not only the distance, but picking up multiple towers. cell phones on the technology at the time, couldn't lock signals on multiple towers. It was't possible, the cell phones are set up to pick up the strongest signal, but when you are in the air, you are equal distances in many cases to mutliple towers. which will cause a call to drop as well. Not to mention your flying at 500+ miles per hour and cell phones also aren't emant to switch towers that fast.

And I would be more apt to believe I could actually get a signal up to 6.6 miles up on an airplane, if myself or anyone I've ever known and have talked to about it dind't completely loose their ability to make a phone call at aroudn 8000 ft.

[Soupnazi]

Regardless of supposed to or not, I have tried it with every cell phone I've had since 2001 (about 6 different ones). None of them worked above about 7k feet. The data I posted only confirms the experiments I have done.

the actual problem is not only the distance, but picking up multiple towers. cell phones on the technology at the time, couldn't lock signals on multiple towers. It was't possible, the cell phones are set up to pick up the strongest signal, but when you are in the air, you are equal distances in many cases to mutliple towers. which will cause a call to drop as well. Not to mention your flying at 500+ miles per hour and cell phones also aren't emant to switch towers that fast.

And I would be more apt to believe I could actually get a signal up to 6.6 miles up on an airplane, if myself or anyone I've ever known and have talked to about it dind't completely loose their ability to make a phone call at aroudn 8000 ft.

Cell phones work in airliners and have for a long time . do they work perfectly ? no but they can work well enough for the calls families received on 911

[Scumbag]

Then if he didnt' mean what I am saying, what exactly did he mean. You keep arguing semantics, that's how you bullshit something. Let's agree on what he said, what you do you think he meant?
He meant what he said. Not what you think he said...

People who make an oath out of respect for one's country are likely to keep the oath. People who make an oath out of fear or of an illegal nature are more than likely not to. That's how crims get caught.

It's not difficult to understand and it's a perfectly reasonable stance to take.

If I'm wrong, Soupnazi will correct me.

If I'm not wrong he will agree with what I say.

You create semantics by spinning what people say to suit you and then complain that people are using semantics!!!

You are truly fucked in the head, man!

[BlackAsCoal]

Rodriquez was not the last man out. He says he was but he was not.

As for the so called explosions, here is part of a transcript of Rodriquez's actual statement to NIST.

"The fire, the ball of fire, for example, I was in the basement when the first plane hit the building.
And at that moment, I thought it was an electrical generator that blew up at that moment. A
person comes running into the office saying explosion, explosion, explosion. When I look at this
guy; has all his skin pulled off of his body. Hanging from the top of his fingertips like it was a
glove. And I said, what happened? He said the elevators. What happened was the ball of fire
went down with such a force down the elevator shaft on the 58th – freight elevator, the biggest
freight elevator that we have in the North Tower, it went out with such a force that it broke the
cables. It went down, I think seven flights. The person survived because he was pulled from the
B3 level. But this person, being in front of the doors waiting for the elevator, practically got his
skin vaporized."

You forgot to mention that Later, Rodriquez tried to sue the US government and 150+ others claiming 9/11 was a conspiracy.

In his desparate attempts at notoriety, he turned to conspiracy theories to earn his keep. He had, after all lost his job on 9/11.

http://rodriguezlawsuit.googlepages.com/RodriguezComplaint.pdf

If Rodriquez wasn't the last man out .. who was? .. You don't fucking know and you out spout shit without any evidence .. as I've already proven several times in this thread.

.. and to your not-well-thought-out comment of Rodriquez seeking "noteriety", he was a HERO, who could have had books written about his galant efforts, TV movies made about his ordeal, and swallowers like you hanging all over him .. but he walked away from all that by having the courage to tell the truth. Your argument is for dummies who can't think past their nose.

" an independent investigative group funded by the government, put the finishing touches this week on its 2 year $35 million 9/11 investigation. This week Rodriguez made his final plea to have his story heard while testifying at the final public hearing held in New York.

" I disagree 100%with the government story," said Rodriguez. "I met with the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors and they essentially discounted everything I said regarding the use of explosives to bring down the north tower.

"And I contacted NIST previously four times without a response. Finally, this week I asked them before they came up with their conclusion that jet fuel brought down the towers, if they ever considered my statements or the statements of any of the other survivors who heard the explosions. They just stared at me with blank faces and didn’t have any answers."

As I have already stated, 9/11 swallowers will attempt to destroy a real hero, who undeniably saved many lives, to support their fairy-tale .. all you left out was calling him a "communist"

Rodriquez has repeatedly said the explosion that burned and ripped skin from his co-worker, whose life Rodriquez also saved, happened BEFORE the plane hit the tower .. and the explosions he heard, while saving the lives of others and leading NYFD first responders, has also been validated by members of NYFD.

Care to hear the recordings of their radio transmissions at the time .. including that of some who didn't make it out alive?

Of course you don't .. but here they are anyway ...

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/911-truth-nyfd-say-explosives-brought-down-towers/2264931445

New York FireFighters EyeWitness Testimony

New York Fire Dept. firefighter Angel Rivera: "When we hit the 19th floor, something horrendous happened. It was like a bomb went off. We thought we were dead. The whole building shook."

NYFD Asst. Commissioner Stephen Gregory: I thought that I saw...low level flashes...I saw flash-flash-flash, and then it looked like the building came down. You know like when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw."

Firefighter Daniel Rivera: "At first I thought it was... Do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear, 'pop-pop-pop-pop-pop'? That's exactly what, because I thought it was that, when I heard that frigging noise, that's when I saw the building coming down."

NYFD Captain Karin Deshore: "Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash kept popping, all the way around the building, and that building had started to explode."

The New York City Fire Department, under the direction of Fire Commissioner Tom Von Essen, collected the testimony of 503 first-responder EMTs, Port Authority police, and firefighters. It came to 12,000 pages. The 9/11 Commission, run by White House appointee and insider, Philip Zelikow, rejected the testimony, just ignored it, not germane to the foregone conclusion.
http://freethoughtmanifesto.blogspot.com/2007/11/explosive-ny-firefighters-testimony-9.html

Then again, those firefighters could all be communists.

A major reason NYFD lost 343 firefighters that day, more than in the department’s previous history, was that departmental commanders never feared collapse and the fires were entirely manageable. Audio tapes show that Battalion Chief Orio J. Palmer was on floor 78, the lowest impact floor in the South Tower, at 9:52 a.m. and said, “We’ve got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines.” Then the entire building completely imploded minutes later. That’s part of the public record and highly incriminating.
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/reynolds/replies/revisiting_p1.html

But what about the communist NY Police Department ...

NYPD officer Craig Bartmer

BARTMER: "I walked around it (Building 7). I saw a hole. I didn't see a hole bad enough to knock a building down, though. Yeah there was definitely fire in the building, but I didn't hear any... I didn't hear any creaking, or... I didn't hear any indication that it was going to come down. And all of a sudden the radios exploded and everyone started screaming 'get away, get away, get away from it!'... It was at that moment... I looked up, and it was nothing I would ever imagine seeing in my life. The thing started pealing in on itself... Somebody grabbed my shoulder and I started running, and the shit's hitting the ground behind me, and the whole time you're hearing "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom." I think I know an explosion when I hear it... Yeah it had some damage to it, but nothing like what they're saying... Nothing to account for what we saw... I am shocked at the story we've heard about it to be quite honest."

He's talking about WTC7 .. yet he heard the same "boom, boom, boom" that firefighters heard in the twin towers.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/nypd_officer_heard_building_7_bombs.htm

.. and obviously we have "communists" flying around in NYPD helicopters ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9npCtqCuRU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CMjgWVqVg4

You swallowers always argure that if 9/11 was a fraud then there would be people who would talk .. even heard it termed "human nature" .. but when people, credentialed, intelligent, patriotic, valiant, and even heroic Americans do come forth with truth they've witnessed or know, you swallowers will dismiss them as "loonies" .. just as you swallowers did about WMD in Iraq and in defense of the worst administration in American history. You swallowed then and you swallow now .. and I'm REAL sure YOU were one of the swallowers then as now.

From highly recognized, credentialed, and patriotic people like Col. Bowman, to a cream of the crop group of military combat pilots, academians and scholars, physicists, engineers, firefighters, police, and all manner of first responders .. anyone who doesn't swallow the fairy tale must be "loony."

That's your entire argument.

The demolition theory is MUCH easier to prove than the fairy tale of melting buildings.

Speaking of NIST .. any idea why they left evidence of explosive material found by, and commented on, in the FEMA Report out of their report?

I asked this before .. but of course you don't know .. and I guess you didn't have a "communist" answer for it. :)

"No one witnessed explosions in the buildings"

:)

[asroc]

Do we need another 9/11 thread?

[BlackAsCoal]

Do we need another 9/11 thread?

Why?

This one is doing just fine and proves the fairy tale is full of holes, lacks science and credibility, and its defenders are dumb as rocks.

[Soupnazi]

If Rodriquez wasn't the last man out .. who was? .. You don't fucking know and you out spout shit without any evidence .. as I've already proven several times in this thread.

.. and to your not-well-thought-out comment of Rodriquez seeking "noteriety", he was a HERO, who could have had books written about his galant efforts, TV movies made about his ordeal, and swallowers like you hanging all over him .. but he walked away from all that by having the courage to tell the truth. Your argument is for dummies who can't think past their nose.

" an independent investigative group funded by the government, put the finishing touches this week on its 2 year $35 million 9/11 investigation. This week Rodriguez made his final plea to have his story heard while testifying at the final public hearing held in New York.

" I disagree 100%with the government story," said Rodriguez. "I met with the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors and they essentially discounted everything I said regarding the use of explosives to bring down the north tower.

"And I contacted NIST previously four times without a response. Finally, this week I asked them before they came up with their conclusion that jet fuel brought down the towers, if they ever considered my statements or the statements of any of the other survivors who heard the explosions. They just stared at me with blank faces and didn’t have any answers."

As I have already stated, 9/11 swallowers will attempt to destroy a real hero, who undeniably saved many lives, to support their fairy-tale .. all you left out was calling him a "communist"

Rodriquez has repeatedly said the explosion that burned and ripped skin from his co-worker, whose life Rodriquez also saved, happened BEFORE the plane hit the tower .. and the explosions he heard, while saving the lives of others and leading NYFD first responders, has also been validated by members of NYFD.

Care to hear the recordings of their radio transmissions at the time .. including that of some who didn't make it out alive?

Of course you don't .. but here they are anyway ...

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/911-truth-nyfd-say-explosives-brought-down-towers/2264931445

New York FireFighters EyeWitness Testimony

New York Fire Dept. firefighter Angel Rivera: "When we hit the 19th floor, something horrendous happened. It was like a bomb went off. We thought we were dead. The whole building shook."

NYFD Asst. Commissioner Stephen Gregory: I thought that I saw...low level flashes...I saw flash-flash-flash, and then it looked like the building came down. You know like when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw."

Firefighter Daniel Rivera: "At first I thought it was... Do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear, 'pop-pop-pop-pop-pop'? That's exactly what, because I thought it was that, when I heard that frigging noise, that's when I saw the building coming down."

NYFD Captain Karin Deshore: "Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash kept popping, all the way around the building, and that building had started to explode."

The New York City Fire Department, under the direction of Fire Commissioner Tom Von Essen, collected the testimony of 503 first-responder EMTs, Port Authority police, and firefighters. It came to 12,000 pages. The 9/11 Commission, run by White House appointee and insider, Philip Zelikow, rejected the testimony, just ignored it, not germane to the foregone conclusion.
http://freethoughtmanifesto.blogspot.com/2007/11/explosive-ny-firefighters-testimony-9.html

Then again, those firefighters could all be communists.

A major reason NYFD lost 343 firefighters that day, more than in the department’s previous history, was that departmental commanders never feared collapse and the fires were entirely manageable. Audio tapes show that Battalion Chief Orio J. Palmer was on floor 78, the lowest impact floor in the South Tower, at 9:52 a.m. and said, “We’ve got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines.” Then the entire building completely imploded minutes later. That’s part of the public record and highly incriminating.
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/reynolds/replies/revisiting_p1.html

But what about the communist NY Police Department ...

NYPD officer Craig Bartmer

BARTMER: "I walked around it (Building 7). I saw a hole. I didn't see a hole bad enough to knock a building down, though. Yeah there was definitely fire in the building, but I didn't hear any... I didn't hear any creaking, or... I didn't hear any indication that it was going to come down. And all of a sudden the radios exploded and everyone started screaming 'get away, get away, get away from it!'... It was at that moment... I looked up, and it was nothing I would ever imagine seeing in my life. The thing started pealing in on itself... Somebody grabbed my shoulder and I started running, and the shit's hitting the ground behind me, and the whole time you're hearing "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom." I think I know an explosion when I hear it... Yeah it had some damage to it, but nothing like what they're saying... Nothing to account for what we saw... I am shocked at the story we've heard about it to be quite honest."

He's talking about WTC7 .. yet he heard the same "boom, boom, boom" that firefighters heard in the twin towers.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/nypd_officer_heard_building_7_bombs.htm

.. and obviously we have "communists" flying around in NYPD helicopters ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9npCtqCuRU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CMjgWVqVg4

You swallowers always argure that if 9/11 was a fraud then there would be people who would talk .. even heard it termed "human nature" .. but when people, credentialed, intelligent, patriotic, valiant, and even heroic Americans do come forth with truth they've witnessed or know, you swallowers will dismiss them as "loonies" .. just as you swallowers did about WMD in Iraq and in defense of the worst administration in American history. You swallowed then and you swallow now .. and I'm REAL sure YOU were one of the swallowers then as now.

From highly recognized, credentialed, and patriotic people like Col. Bowman, to a cream of the crop group of military combat pilots, academians and scholars, physicists, engineers, firefighters, police, and all manner of first responders .. anyone who doesn't swallow the fairy tale must be "loony."

That's your entire argument.

The demolition theory is MUCH easier to prove than the fairy tale of melting buildings.

Speaking of NIST .. any idea why they left evidence of explosive material found by, and commented on, in the FEMA Report out of their report?

I asked this before .. but of course you don't know .. and I guess you didn't have a "communist" answer for it. :)

"No one witnessed explosions in the buildings"

:)

Rodriquez had a heroic moment and like many such people yes he is a hero for what he did that day but being a hero does not garuntee one will always be infallible or credible. His credibility has in fact been diminished by his eforts to stay famous and milk his experience for every dime and minute of fame . The truth is he has no evidence of explosives or demolition and only jumped on that band wagon afters others began stating the theory.

Being inside the building rodriquez had no idea when the plane hit or which explosion ripped the skin from hsi co worker sorry that claim is not credible . No transmission from any fire captain or battalion commander stated as you claim that they had the fires under control . Small pockets of the fire yes but not the total inferno and no fire fighter ever compared it with controlled demolition.

The vast ranks of the heroes that day police, fire and EMT are united in that they flat out reject the conspiracy theories and KNOW that your claims are scientifically unsound and illogical. Rodriquez is of course the only exception because yes he did try to exploit his experience for personal gain . What is remarkable is that very few men who survived that day have tried to do what he has done.

[Soupnazi]

Why?

This one is doing just fine and proves the fairy tale is full of holes, lacks science and credibility, and its defenders are dumb as rocks.

No it is proving that you are the one who is gullible and naive and that like all previous conspiracy theories yours are scientifically unsound and illogical.

Science and logic proves that Pearl harbor was nothing ore than a surprise attacks ( no inside job) ,oswald killed JFK ( alone ), we landed on the moon ( it was not staged ) , Evlis really died and 911 was a foreign terrorist attack with no US government conspiracy

[asroc]

Why?

This one is doing just fine and proves the fairy tale is full of holes, lacks science and credibility, and its defenders are dumb as rocks.

I'm saying this is like one of several threads that have devolved into 9/11 debate, while we have an actual thread for 9/11 debate already.

[BlackAsCoal]

Rodriquez had a heroic moment and like many such people yes he is a hero for what he did that day but being a hero does not garuntee one will always be infallible or credible. His credibility has in fact been diminished by his eforts to stay famous and milk his experience for every dime and minute of fame . The truth is he has no evidence of explosives or demolition and only jumped on that band wagon afters others began stating the theory.

Being inside the building rodriquez had no idea when the plane hit or which explosion ripped the skin from hsi co worker sorry that claim is not credible . No transmission from any fire captain or battalion commander stated as you claim that they had the fires under control . Small pockets of the fire yes but not the total inferno and no fire fighter ever compared it with controlled demolition.

The vast ranks of the heroes that day police, fire and EMT are united in that they flat out reject the conspiracy theories and KNOW that your claims are scientifically unsound and illogical. Rodriquez is of course the only exception because yes he did try to exploit his experience for personal gain . What is remarkable is that very few men who survived that day have tried to do what he has done.

Frankly, I'm posting to you, but not for you. I'm posting for people with brains .. quite frankly put.

I just provided UNDENIABLE .. to people with brains .. evidence that many members of NYFD and NYPD have said they heard explosions and compared it to a controlled demolition .. only a fool when then come back and say .. "no fire fighter ever compared it with controlled demolition."

Stupid beyond belief.

.. and for people who can think past their noses .. they can ask themselves .. did Rodriquez stand to gain more from going along with the fairy tale of 9/11, or could he gain more by standing against it.

Not posting for you .. you're just the set-up guy that makes me look good.

thanks ;)

Got anymore genius pearls of wisdom?

Please say you do

[Soupnazi]

Frankly, I'm posting to you, but not for you. I'm posting for people with brains .. quite frankly put.

I just provided UNDENIABLE .. to people with brains .. evidence that many members of NYFD and NYPD have said they heard explosions and compared it to a controlled demolition .. only a fool when then come back and say .. "no fire fighter ever compared it with controlled demolition."

Stupid beyond belief.

.. and for people who can think past their noses .. they can ask themselves .. did Rodriquez stand to gain more from going along with the fairy tale of 9/11, or could he gain more by standing against it.

Not posting for you .. you're just the set-up guy that makes me look good.

thanks ;)

Got anymore genius pearls of wisdom?

Please say you do
You are a liar plain and simple you provided to one damned shred of evidence you strictly and only provided links to conspiracy based websites which twist and distort peoples words quite deliberatly and which only repeat your half baked brainless claims YOU HAVE not provided a shred of evidence in any post you have been destroyed by others get over it.

[BlackAsCoal]

No it is proving that you are the one who is gullible and naive and that like all previous conspiracy theories yours are scientifically unsound and illogical.

Science and logic proves that Pearl harbor was nothing ore than a surprise attacks ( no inside job) ,oswald killed JFK ( alone ), we landed on the moon ( it was not staged ) , Evlis really died and 911 was a foreign terrorist attack with no US government conspiracy

Again .. posting to you, but not for you.

There is no, as in ZERO science behind melting buildings.

Name it.

Can the collapse of the towers be reproduced .. even in a lab?

Name the science that backs that up .. keeping in mind that if there is no science, it ain't real.

.. and there was no WMD in Iraq .. and although I wasn't on this site at the time, I can absolutely guarantee that YOU were one of the idiots who called that a lie and conspiracy theory.

thanks .. do come again. ;)

[Soupnazi]

Again .. posting to you, but not for you.

There is no, as in ZERO science behind melting buildings.

Name it.

Can the collapse of the towers be reproduced .. even in a lab?

Name the science that backs that up .. keeping in mind that if there is no science, it ain't real.

.. and there was no WMD in Iraq .. and although I wasn't on this site at the time, I can absolutely guarantee that YOU were one of the idiots who called that a lie and conspiracy theory.

thanks .. do come again. ;)

No one claimed they melted you nitwit we already discussed that lie of yours and repeating an event in a pab means nothing

But in fact they can and HAVE easily reproduced exactly what happened in a lab science proves you wrong little boy

Physics is the science which backs me up and destroyrs you you aqre a fool who knows nothing of science.

[BlackAsCoal]

You are a liar plain and simple you provided to one damned shred of evidence you strictly and only provided links to conspiracy based websites which twist and distort peoples words quite deliberatly and which only repeat your half baked brainless claims YOU HAVE not provided a shred of evidence in any post you have been destroyed by others get over it.

SWEET !!!

You make my case for me .. one would have to be a complete moron to believe the fairy tale of 9/11.

;)

[Soupnazi]

SWEET !!!

You make my case for me .. one would have to be a complete moron to believe the fairy tale of 9/11.

;)

You started this thread with such self rghteous and foolish comments which is why your case has been destroyed ot proven you are gullible naive and a believer in comic books.

Learn how laboratories work silly boy they cannot reproduce what happened because one cannot reproduce te WTC in a lab just as one cannot reproduce the lunar landing IN A LAB jesus you are truly stupid

[BlackAsCoal]

No one claimed they melted you nitwit we already discussed that lie of yours and repeating an event in a pab means nothing

But in fact they can and HAVE easily reproduced exactly what happened in a lab science proves you wrong little boy

Physics is the science which backs me up and destroyrs you you aqre a fool who knows nothing of science.

SWEET !!!

Melted as in collapsing into its own footprint from fire .. NAME THE SCIENCE AND POST THE SPECIFICS OF THE SCIENCE THAT DEMONSTRATES IT

POST WHERE AND WHEN THEY HAVE EASILY REPRODUCED MELTING BUILDINGS FROM FIRE .. AND IN THE CASE OF WTC7, SMALL FIRES

Experts can't verify key 9/11 experiment
http://911science.blogspot.com/2007/08/experts-cant-verify-official-911-theory.html

YOU DON'T KNOW PHYSICS DUMMY AND I GUARANTEE YOU WON'T POST ANY SPECIFIC PHYSICS KNOWLEDGE THAT BACKS YOUR RIDICULOUS CLAIM

... and by the way, not only do you not have any science to back-up the bullshit, you also DON"T HAVE ANY HISTORY TO BACK THAT BULLSHIT UP EITHER

POST THE HISTORY OF SUCH EVENTS.

SWEET !!!

[BlackAsCoal]

You started this thread with such self rghteous and foolish comments which is why your case has been destroyed ot proven you are gullible naive and a believer in comic books.

Learn how laboratories work silly boy they cannot reproduce what happened because one cannot reproduce te WTC in a lab just as one cannot reproduce the lunar landing IN A LAB jesus you are truly stupid

I could give the slightest damn about your illusion that "my case has been destroyed" .. it's quite the opposite dummy .. and you being a dummy, wouldn't even recignize when you've lost an argument.

What you have proven is the moron theory .. and in case you missed it, you've proven yourself to be one.

Still choking on why NIST ommitted the evidence of explosives in their report?

Don't worry about facts .. just do your usual and come back with something really stupid.

:)

[Soupnazi]

SWEET !!!

Melted as in collapsing into its own footprint from fire .. NAME THE SCIENCE AND POST THE SPECIFICS OF THE SCIENCE THAT DEMONSTRATES IT

POST WHERE AND WHEN THEY HAVE EASILY REPRODUCED MELTING BUILDINGS FROM FIRE .. AND IN THE CASE OF WTC7, SMALL FIRES

Experts can't verify key 9/11 experiment
http://911science.blogspot.com/2007/08/experts-cant-verify-official-911-theory.html

YOU DON'T KNOW PHYSICS DUMMY AND I GUARANTEE YOU WON'T POST ANY SPECIFIC PHYSICS KNOWLEDGE THAT BACKS YOUR RIDICULOUS CLAIM

... and by the way, not only do you not have any science to back-up the bullshit, you also DON"T HAVE ANY HISTORY TO BACK THAT BULLSHIT UP EITHER

POST THE HISTORY OF SUCH EVENTS.

SWEET !!!

One more time this has been explained to you .

NO B ODY in government or elsewhere said that fire melted steel and caused the collapse your questions is one based on a lie which is exactly what conspiracy theories are based on which is why they are proven false.

Any experiment based on such a lie will of course be meaningless

[Soupnazi]

I could give the slightest damn about your illusion that "my case has been destroyed" .. it's quite the opposite dummy .. and you being a dummy, wouldn't even recignize when you've lost an argument.

What you have proven is the moron theory .. and in case you missed it, you've proven yourself to be one.

Still choking on why NIST ommitted the evidence of explosives in their report?

Don't worry about facts .. just do your usual and come back with something really stupid.

:)
NIST omitted no such evidence and you know you are ruined you have yet to post a fact or piece of evidence you know and I now and all who have read this KNOW you are beaten and have posted or evidence or facts to support your claim. And yes you care and hate this truth or you would not be such a teenager throwing insults.

[BlackAsCoal]

One more time this has been explained to you .

NO B ODY in government or elsewhere said that fire melted steel and caused the collapse your questions is one based on a lie which is exactly what conspiracy theories are based on which is why they are proven false.

Any experiment based on such a lie will of course be meaningless

Post ANY science that says weakened buildings collapsing from fire will fall into it's own footprint at near free-fall speed.

Post ANY scientific experiment that proves it.

POST WHY NIST AVOIDED THE EVIDENCE OF EXPLOSIVES

Stop posting prose dummy .. post some goddamn evidence.

[SeedyROM]

Regardless of supposed to or not, I have tried it with every cell phone I've had since 2001 (about 6 different ones). None of them worked above about 7k feet. The data I posted only confirms the experiments I have done.

the actual problem is not only the distance, but picking up multiple towers. cell phones on the technology at the time, couldn't lock signals on multiple towers. It was't possible, the cell phones are set up to pick up the strongest signal, but when you are in the air, you are equal distances in many cases to mutliple towers. which will cause a call to drop as well. Not to mention your flying at 500+ miles per hour and cell phones also aren't emant to switch towers that fast.

And I would be more apt to believe I could actually get a signal up to 6.6 miles up on an airplane, if myself or anyone I've ever known and have talked to about it dind't completely loose their ability to make a phone call at aroudn 8000 ft.

Maybe you tired the phone after leaving a cell tower zone. Airports are usually located near the outskirts of town. No one should use a phone during takeoff or landing, but we live in an ignorant, selfish-rich society. Most jets climb at a rate of 3500 feet per minute or better, you'd be out a cell zone quickly. Location in the plane helps too. Over the wingspar too much metal and wiring, near the cockpit.....heavy wiring too.

All those websites said the same thing, the govt. is responsible for 9/11 and we have the real proof. Those sites have no credibility on 9/11. Cell phones will work with one tower, getting a lock is sometimes an issue. Cell signals travel at the speed of sound, faster than all commercial jets. In fact, while climbing many jets maintain 350mph or less due to the rate of climb ascent.

[BlackAsCoal]

NIST omitted no such evidence and you know you are ruined you have yet to post a fact or piece of evidence you know and I now and all who have read this KNOW you are beaten and have posted or evidence or facts to support your claim. And yes you care and hate this truth or you would not be such a teenager throwing insults.

Stupid is easy ...

From the FEMA Report .. which I posted before and you ignored.

"Evidence of a severe high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation with subsequent intergranular melting, was readily visible in the near-surface microstructure. A liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot corrosion attack on the steel.
...
The thinning of the steel occurred by high temperature corrosion due to a combination of oxidation and sulfidation.
...
The unusual thinning of the member is most likely due to an attack of the steel by grain boundary penetration of sulfur forming sulfides that contain both iron and copper.
...
liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot corrosion attack on the steel.
...
The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 are a very unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. The rate of corrosion is also unknown. It is possible that this is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings. It is also possible that the phenomenon started prior to collapse and accelerated the weakening of the steel structure. A detailed study into the mechanisms of this phenomenon is needed to determine what risk, if any, is presented to existing steel structures exposed to severe and long-burning fires."

What they found is consistent with thermite explosives.

Find this in the NIST Report.

[BlackAsCoal]

Maybe you tired the phone after leaving a cell tower zone. Airports are usually located near the outskirts of town. No one should use a phone during takeoff or landing, but we live in an ignorant, selfish-rich society. Most jets climb at a rate of 3500 feet per minute or better, you'd be out a cell zone quickly. Location in the plane helps too. Over the wingspar too much metal and wiring, near the cockpit.....heavy wiring too.

All those websites said the same thing, the govt. is responsible for 9/11 and we have the real proof. Those sites have no credibility on 9/11. Cell phones will work with one tower, getting a lock is sometimes an issue. Cell signals travel at the speed of sound, faster than all commercial jets. In fact, while climbing many jets maintain 350mph or less due to the rate of climb ascent.

What you suggest is completely inconsistent with what many representatives from communications companies say..

Simply put, cellphones are a land-based device, not meant for use in space.

[SeedyROM]

Still choking on why NIST ommitted the evidence of explosives in their report?

Don't worry about facts .. just do your usual and come back with something really stupid.

:)

Why would NIST need to omit something that does not exist at the crime scene? No explosives were used, you are relying on 3rd propoganda jargon used to sell you a fantasy designed to make the dirtbags money. No explosions were seen at WTC except where the planes struck. For all you know the so called explosion in the basement happened at the point of impact and these CT Nutters are spinning the man's statement into a lie to deceive you!! And it is working. People lie all the time, every catastrophe results in conspiracy.

[BlackAsCoal]

Why would NIST need to omit something that does not exist at the crime scene? No explosives were used, you are relying on 3rd propoganda jargon used to sell you a fantasy designed to make the dirtbags money. No explosions were seen at WTC except where the planes struck. For all you know the so called explosion in the basement happened at the point of impact and these CT Nutters are spinning the man's statement into a lie to deceive you!! And it is working. People lie all the time, every catastrophe results in conspiracy.

Is there a comprehension problem on this site.

I quote the FEMA Report. Is that "3rd propaganda jargon?"

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/official/fema.html

FIND IT IN THE NIST REPORT

The National Fire Protection Association’s NFPA 921 Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations (1998 Edition) dictates in fire investigations that certain residues should be tested for. Thermate would leave behind signs of sulfidation/corrosion by sulfur. Such residues were in fact noted in Appendix C of the FEMA. “If the physical evidence establishes one factor, such as the presence of an accelerant, that may be sufficient to establish the cause even where other factors such as ignition source cannot be determined.” Thermate and sulfur obviously qualify as accelerants in this case (with regard to the destruction of steel which in turn could have caused the near-free-fall-speed collapse).

[Independent Harry]

Maybe you tired the phone after leaving a cell tower zone. Airports are usually located near the outskirts of town. No one should use a phone during takeoff or landing, but we live in an ignorant, selfish-rich society. Most jets climb at a rate of 3500 feet per minute or better, you'd be out a cell zone quickly. Location in the plane helps too. Over the wingspar too much metal and wiring, near the cockpit.....heavy wiring too.

All those websites said the same thing, the govt. is responsible for 9/11 and we have the real proof. Those sites have no credibility on 9/11. Cell phones will work with one tower, getting a lock is sometimes an issue. Cell signals travel at the speed of sound, faster than all commercial jets. In fact, while climbing many jets maintain 350mph or less due to the rate of climb ascent.

I didn't say the jet travels faster than the signal, I said the jet travels faster than the cells can maintain a lock on the phone. I fly out of Boston, BWI, LAX (none of those are located on the outskirts of town). I always loose signal within about 7k feet. And never recover from it the entire flight. I've checked.

[SeedyROM]

What you suggest is completely inconsistent with what many representatives from communications companies say..

Simply put, cellphones are a land-based device, not meant for use in space.

Space, you fail to understand that radio signals travel in a 3 dimensional pattern, not 2 dimensional.

Actually the research on cell phone use in airplanes is quite extensive. Try researching it outside of the CT Nutter world of propoganda. Some phones will ping more than 2 towers and in some cases a cheap phone will ping hundreds of towers congesting the cell network.

This software bug has been fixed, FCC talks continued to date, the EU is lifting the cell phone ban.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3543-2004Dec15.html
The FCC bans in-flight use because cell phones can communicate with more than one cell tower when in the air. This could lead to disruption of service for cell phones on the ground, which use only one tower at a time.

But the commission thinks cell phone technology has advanced far enough in recent years to minimize such disruption of ground service. Yesterday, the FCC voted to consider lifting its ban, and it will begin taking comments from businesses and travelers over the next few months.




The EU to Allow Cell-Phone Use on Airplanes
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,347508,00.html


fyi, I've been flying for 12 years and I can tell you cell phones do not interfere with the VOR,the altimeter or any other radio equipment including my radar/wind shear detector. The fear was overblown. The FCC have yet to change the rules so it is still illegal to use a phone on commercial jet even though some dipshits will try. There is also a pilot theory circulating that the some airlines installed a cell phone jammer to stop 800Mhz interference. Do cell phones bug you in restaurants, go to eBay and buy a cell jammer for $30 and eat in peace? :D

[SeedyROM]

Is there a comprehension problem on this site.

I quote the FEMA Report. Is that "3rd propaganda jargon?"

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/official/fema.html

FIND IT IN THE NIST REPORT

The National Fire Protection Association’s NFPA 921 Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations (1998 Edition) dictates in fire investigations that certain residues should be tested for. Thermate would leave behind signs of sulfidation/corrosion by sulfur. Such residues were in fact noted in Appendix C of the FEMA. “If the physical evidence establishes one factor, such as the presence of an accelerant, that may be sufficient to establish the cause even where other factors such as ignition source cannot be determined.” Thermate and sulfur obviously qualify as accelerants in this case (with regard to the destruction of steel which in turn could have caused the near-free-fall-speed collapse).

Thermate, do you know how many feet of thermate would be needed to wire one tower, how about two twin towers. I've seen military grade thermate used before. The so called thermate burns on one, repeat one steel girder in one picture is no smoking gun to anything whatsoever. Thermate creates a hot flash fire that burns for several seconds. We'd see hot flashes on every floor at WTC, none were observed. The thermate cuts take time, no way a tall building could be demolished withut witnesses seeing the flashes.

No way these towers could be wired up without witnesses, day or night. Financial markets trade 24/7. I can trade the S&P 500 in Japan starting at 7pm EST, people traded from the towers all the time, stock, commodities, and currency. It would take several years to wire WTC without witnesses. The Gypsum boards would have to be replaced on every floor. Plantin explosives that wouldn't be noticed by city code inspectors, building engineers, etc.....

And the so called mini nukes.............they do not exist. Not like you guys want to believe. Nukes create a white flash as the plutonium is imploded and nukes leave significant radiation.

[BlackAsCoal]

Thermate, do you know how many feet of thermate would be needed to wire one tower, how about two twin towers. I've seen military grade thermate used before. The so called thermate burns on one, repeat one steel girder in one picture is no smoking gun to anything whatsoever. Thermate creates a hot flash fire that burns for several seconds. We'd see hot flashes on every floor at WTC, none were observed. The thermate cuts take time, no way a tall building could be demolished withut witnesses seeing the flashes.

No way these towers could be wired up without witnesses, day or night. Financial markets trade 24/7. I can trade the S&P 500 in Japan starting at 7pm EST, people traded from the towers all the time, stock, commodities, and currency. It would take several years to wire WTC without witnesses. The Gypsum boards would have to be replaced on every floor. Plantin explosives that wouldn't be noticed by city code inspectors, building engineers, etc.....

And the so called mini nukes.............they do not exist. Not like you guys want to believe. Nukes create a white flash as the plutonium is imploded and nukes leave significant radiation.

Thus, I assume you concede there was indeed evidence of a sulfur attack on the steel reported by FEMA, but not reported by NIST.

Hard to make an argument out of the undeniable.

No disrespect to your knowledge of explosives, airplanes, or demolition .. but I believe the testimony of actual scientists, physicists, demolition experts, and engineers.

For the first time in history, normal office fires have created a total progressive collapse if the report from the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) can be believed, said Richard Gage, AIA. Office fires can not melt steel, Gage claims, and NIST has neither explained the mystery of molten iron at the World Trade Center site nor considered other evidence that also suggests the use of thermate incendiary charges to cut the steel framework of 47-story Building 7.
http://www.ae911truth.org/

Again, if your argument is that cell phone use from space is no big deal, it flies in the face of what many leading analysts in the field have said, and it flies in the face of real-life experiences of a great many people.

THIS is a building being imploded into its own footprint .. no buckling, a uniform straight down collapse at near free-fall speed

http://www.ae911truth.org/images/gallery/wtc7freefall.jpg

[Independent Harry]

Space, you fail to understand that radio signals travel in a 3 dimensional pattern, not 2 dimensional.

Actually the research on cell phone use in airplanes is quite extensive. Try researching it outside of the CT Nutter world of propoganda. Some phones will ping more than 2 towers and in some cases a cheap phone will ping hundreds of towers congesting the cell network.

This software bug has been fixed, FCC talks continued to date, the EU is lifting the cell phone ban.




fyi, I've been flying for 12 years and I can tell you cell phones do not interfere with the VOR,the altimeter or any other radio equipment including my radar/wind shear detector. The fear was overblown. The FCC have yet to change the rules so it is still illegal to use a phone on commercial jet even though some dipshits will try. There is also a pilot theory circulating that the some airlines installed a cell phone jammer to stop 800Mhz interference. Do cell phones bug you in restaurants, go to eBay and buy a cell jammer for $30 and eat in peace? :D

Ive researched the use of cell phones in planes, the majority of those people were in small single engine, or private planes. That usually fly under a max altitude of 10k feet. Hence what I've been saying. Regardless, cell phone towers are built with directional antennas. The signal is actually directed horizontaly and not vertically, only leaked waves actually go vertical. Whch makes for a much weaker signal.

[Soupnazi]

Post ANY science that says weakened buildings collapsing from fire will fall into it's own footprint at near free-fall speed.

Post ANY scientific experiment that proves it.

POST WHY NIST AVOIDED THE EVIDENCE OF EXPLOSIVES

Stop posting prose dummy .. post some goddamn evidence.

A. the scientific theory which proves it is called GRAVITY there is no law of physics which states it is impossible there is Newtons law plain and simple.

B. NIST avoided no such evidence BECAUSE there was o such evidence and still is not.

Stop being so obtuse you now nothing of science and I do not claim to be an expert. The fact is only a few crackpots agree with you all credible experts prove you wrong.

[Soupnazi]

Stupid is easy ...

From the FEMA Report .. which I posted before and you ignored.

"Evidence of a severe high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation with subsequent intergranular melting, was readily visible in the near-surface microstructure. A liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot corrosion attack on the steel.
...
The thinning of the steel occurred by high temperature corrosion due to a combination of oxidation and sulfidation.
...
The unusual thinning of the member is most likely due to an attack of the steel by grain boundary penetration of sulfur forming sulfides that contain both iron and copper.
...
liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot corrosion attack on the steel.
...
The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 are a very unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. The rate of corrosion is also unknown. It is possible that this is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings. It is also possible that the phenomenon started prior to collapse and accelerated the weakening of the steel structure. A detailed study into the mechanisms of this phenomenon is needed to determine what risk, if any, is presented to existing steel structures exposed to severe and long-burning fires."

What they found is consistent with thermite explosives.

Find this in the NIST Report.

You just proved my point they found no evidece of explosives only evidence of complex chemica actions in debris found in the bottom of the pit after it had been buried and burning for weeks. This is evidence of one thing and one thing only that a building with tens of thousands of different substances collapsed and the debris was a mess.

[Soupnazi]

What you suggest is completely inconsistent with what many representatives from communications companies say..

Simply put, cellphones are a land-based device, not meant for use in space.

It is irrelevant what they are MEANT for they can work in the air and do work and did work . Not perfectly but well enough for passengers to call home briefly on 911 which they did

[Soupnazi]

Is there a comprehension problem on this site.

I quote the FEMA Report. Is that "3rd propaganda jargon?"

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/official/fema.html

FIND IT IN THE NIST REPORT

The National Fire Protection Association’s NFPA 921 Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations (1998 Edition) dictates in fire investigations that certain residues should be tested for. Thermate would leave behind signs of sulfidation/corrosion by sulfur. Such residues were in fact noted in Appendix C of the FEMA. “If the physical evidence establishes one factor, such as the presence of an accelerant, that may be sufficient to establish the cause even where other factors such as ignition source cannot be determined.” Thermate and sulfur obviously qualify as accelerants in this case (with regard to the destruction of steel which in turn could have caused the near-free-fall-speed collapse).

Every chemical substance known to man would be found in a pile of debris the size of the towers and it took weeks to get to the bottom of the pile finding such substances is not evidence of ANYTHING get that fact sraight they ommited NO evidence.

[Independent Harry]

You just proved my point they found no evidece of explosives only evidence of complex chemica actions in debris found in the bottom of the pit after it had been buried and burning for weeks. This is evidence of one thing and one thing only that a building with tens of thousands of different substances collapsed and the debris was a mess.

how did the building burn for weeks in an oxygen poor enviroment, and get hot enough to have molten metal in the rubbel debris?

[Soupnazi]

how did the building burn for weeks in an oxygen poor enviroment, and get hot enough to have molten metal in the rubbel debris?
Oxygen poor does not mean oxygen deprived there was enough oxygen to keep it burning as it was a pile of rubble. And that is what happens when such a burning pile is formed it pulls air in through the sides but does not allow heat to bleed into the atmosphere and as such will grow hotter and hotter . Much the same way a kiln works they have enclosed fire as well and are used to bake ceramics

[Scumbag]

If Rodriquez wasn't the last man out .. who was? .. You don't fucking know and you out spout shit without any evidence .. as I've already proven several times in this thread.

At that same public meeting, Rodriguez inaccurately described himself to NIST investigators as "the last survivor pulled from the rubble". There were, in fact, at least 18 survivors pulled from the rubble of the North Tower long after Rodriguez walked out of the building unharmed. The last survivor was Jenelle Guzman-McMillan, who was rescued some 26 hours later at approximately 12:30 p.m. on September 12, 2001.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rodriguez

I don't make statements without checking first, dick-brain!

I thought evyone knew that Rodriquez wasn't the last survivor pulled from the rubble.
Seems you're the only one who didn't, huh?.
Well, you do now!

[SeedyROM]

Thus, I assume you concede there was indeed evidence of a sulfur attack on the steel reported by FEMA, but not reported by NIST.

Hard to make an argument out of the undeniable.

No disrespect to your knowledge of explosives, airplanes, or demolition .. but I believe the testimony of actual scientists, physicists, demolition experts, and engineers.

For the first time in history, normal office fires have created a total progressive collapse if the report from the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) can be believed, said Richard Gage, AIA. Office fires can not melt steel, Gage claims, and NIST has neither explained the mystery of molten iron at the World Trade Center site nor considered other evidence that also suggests the use of thermate incendiary charges to cut the steel framework of 47-story Building 7.
http://www.ae911truth.org/

Again, if your argument is that cell phone use from space is no big deal, it flies in the face of what many leading analysts in the field have said, and it flies in the face of real-life experiences of a great many people.

THIS is a building being imploded into its own footprint .. no buckling, a uniform straight down collapse at near free-fall speed

http://www.ae911truth.org/images/gallery/wtc7freefall.jpg

Weakened steel that was designed to hold how much weight, 50,000 pounds ?
Not a 800,000 pound jet. Weakened steel is the key to the imposion, not sulfur burns. One alleged themate burn is no conspiracy. The broken girder could have been coated with melted plastic. Again, the CT Nutters use something insignificant and attempt to spin into the scientifically impossible.

You need to read the otherside of the arguement at sites that debunk the 9/11 myths. Those scientists, pilots, physicists, demolition experts, and engineers have given thier time and knowledge for free and they have far superior credentials.

Tex Johson rolls a Boeing 707 in the late 1950's. Those flying school buses are far more agile than non-pilots think. Even in the 1950's a plane could have been flown into the Pentagon.

http://www.aviationexplorer.com/707_roll_video.htm

[Scumbag]

Stupid is easy ...

From the FEMA Report .. which I posted before and you ignored.

"Evidence of a severe high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation with subsequent intergranular melting, was readily visible in the near-surface microstructure. A liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot corrosion attack on the steel.
...
The thinning of the steel occurred by high temperature corrosion due to a combination of oxidation and sulfidation.
...
The unusual thinning of the member is most likely due to an attack of the steel by grain boundary penetration of sulfur forming sulfides that contain both iron and copper.
...
liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot corrosion attack on the steel.
...
The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 are a very unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. The rate of corrosion is also unknown. It is possible that this is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings. It is also possible that the phenomenon started prior to collapse and accelerated the weakening of the steel structure. A detailed study into the mechanisms of this phenomenon is needed to determine what risk, if any, is presented to existing steel structures exposed to severe and long-burning fires."

What they found is consistent with thermite explosives.

Find this in the NIST Report.What? No link to your evedence so we can read what you wrote in context?

Typically devious of you, Blackas.

The NIST website FAQ covers the reasons why thermite could not have been used...

"12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.

The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.

Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.
Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions."


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

I hope you're enjoying your education, loony-toons!


:lmao2:

[Independent Harry]

What? No link to your evedence so we can read what you wrote in context?

Typically devious of you, Blackas.

The NIST website FAQ covers the reasons why thermite could not have been used...

"12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.

The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.

Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.
Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions."


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

I hope you're enjoying your education, loony-toons!


:lmao2:

Wait, I'm confused, since the towers could supposedly collapse from a few weakened floors near the top, why then would you need thousands of pounds of thermite. Using the logic of the NIST report, wouldnt' all you need to bring the building down is a few well placed charges near the top of the building?

[BlackAsCoal]

At that same public meeting, Rodriguez inaccurately described himself to NIST investigators as "the last survivor pulled from the rubble". There were, in fact, at least 18 survivors pulled from the rubble of the North Tower long after Rodriguez walked out of the building unharmed. The last survivor was Jenelle Guzman-McMillan, who was rescued some 26 hours later at approximately 12:30 p.m. on September 12, 2001.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rodriguez

I don't make statements without checking first, dick-brain!

I thought evyone knew that Rodriquez wasn't the last survivor pulled from the rubble.
Seems you're the only one who didn't, huh?.
Well, you do now!

Wrong .. all you've posted is scumbag ignorance .. which is about as credible as a shitstain.

http://www.911forthetruth.com/photos%20used/WilliamBush2.jpg

Rodriquez has been celebrated all over the world as "the keymaster" and "The Last Man Out" of the North Tower. A hero who re-entered the tower 3 times in his attempts to save as many people as he could.

Yet, along comes pussies like you, who don't possess the courage of Rodriquez, trying to denigrate the man to make a really stupid point .. which I have no fucking idea what that point could be.

Whether you or wikipedia (great source of knowledge) believe he was the last man out or not .. Rodriquez saved many lives that day and he, at the risk of his own life, assisted firefighters in their heroic efforts until he was forced to get out.

Frankly, I don't give a fuck what you believe. You're stupid and decidely uneducated ... and I like my enemies stupid. :)

[Soupnazi]

Wrong .. all you've posted is scumbag ignorance .. which is about as credible as a shitstain.

http://www.911forthetruth.com/photos%20used/WilliamBush2.jpg

Rodriquez has been celebrated all over the world as "the keymaster" and "The Last Man Out" of the North Tower. A hero who re-entered the tower 3 times in his attempts to save as many people as he could.

Yet, along comes pussies like you, who don't possess the courage of Rodriquez, trying to denigrate the man to make a really stupid point .. which I have no fucking idea what that point could be.

Whether you or wikipedia (great source of knowledge) believe he was the last man out or not .. Rodriquez saved many lives that day and he, at the risk of his own life, assisted firefighters in their heroic efforts until he was forced to get out.

Frankly, I don't give a fuck what you believe. You're stupid and decidely uneducated ... and I like my enemies stupid. :)

It was you insisting he was the last man out and you were proven wrong about this and pretty much everything else.

Insulting people by definition means you lost the argument and you know it so thank you for conceeding you got crushed by others

You naive and gullible belief in fictional conspiracy theories proves a weak mind.

[Soupnazi]

Wrong .. all you've posted is scumbag ignorance .. which is about as credible as a shitstain.

http://www.911forthetruth.com/photos%20used/WilliamBush2.jpg

Rodriquez has been celebrated all over the world as "the keymaster" and "The Last Man Out" of the North Tower. A hero who re-entered the tower 3 times in his attempts to save as many people as he could.

Yet, along comes pussies like you, who don't possess the courage of Rodriquez, trying to denigrate the man to make a really stupid point .. which I have no fucking idea what that point could be.

Whether you or wikipedia (great source of knowledge) believe he was the last man out or not .. Rodriquez saved many lives that day and he, at the risk of his own life, assisted firefighters in their heroic efforts until he was forced to get out.

Frankly, I don't give a fuck what you believe. You're stupid and decidely uneducated ... and I like my enemies stupid. :)

No one denigrate him they demonstrated that he lacks credibility whether he was a hero that day or not and you use him as an authoritative source based on that heroism not on his lack of honesty after the fact.

He has no proof of your fictional claims nor is he or his statements proof.

So no one denies he was a hero but your still proven wrong and silly about your theories

[Scumbag]

Wait, I'm confused Understandable since you seem to have the IQ of a 1 month old! since the towers could supposedly collapse from a few weakened floors near the top, why then would you need thousands of pounds of thermite. Using the logic of the NIST report, wouldnt' all you need to bring the building down is a few well placed charges near the top of the building?A few weakened floors? Get a grip, man!

By the way, IF you had read the report you would have noticed that it estimated .13 pounds of thermite for each pound of steel would be required to heat the steel to the MINIMUM temperature required to weaken the steel (700 degrees F) Meaning that for each ton of steel in the building, 260pounds of thermite would be the minimum required to begin to weaken the structure.

For each 100 tons of steel that equates to well over a ton of thermite, IF they could find a way to keep it in position while it burned through the steel.

Nup! I like Stefan's insane nuke claims better than the thermite idiocy!

[Scumbag]

Wrong .. all you've posted is scumbag ignorance .. which is about as credible as a shitstain.

http://www.911forthetruth.com/photos%20used/WilliamBush2.jpg

Rodriquez has been celebrated all over the world as "the keymaster" and "The Last Man Out" of the North Tower. A hero who re-entered the tower 3 times in his attempts to save as many people as he could.

Yet, along comes pussies like you, who don't possess the courage of Rodriquez, trying to denigrate the man to make a really stupid point .. which I have no fucking idea what that point could be.

Whether you or wikipedia (great source of knowledge) believe he was the last man out or not .. Rodriquez saved many lives that day and he, at the risk of his own life, assisted firefighters in their heroic efforts until he was forced to get out.

Frankly, I don't give a fuck what you believe. You're stupid and decidely uneducated ... and I like my enemies stupid. :)
Rodriquez is an attention seeking whimp and he celebrated himself all over the world while he lapped up his false notoriety!
I seriously doubt he did half of what he said he did, but hen there's no one left to challenge his story 'cause they all died. How lucky is he?
He seized his opportunity as he saw it , at the time. I don't blame him for that! He is still a victim, after all...Pretty much like you are!

:lmao2:

[Scumbag]

So no one denies he was a hero but your still proven wrong and silly about your theories
I do!

I categorically deny it!

Anyone who makes the insidious claims this loser makes about how and why the people, and not to mention his co-workers, died on 9/11 deserves nothing but contempt. He is a coward of the worst order!

He instantly and maliciously chose to go after the dollar....Just go to his website and tell me it ain't so!

http://www.william911.com/store.html

Your hero, Blackas, is an internet beggar, appealing for donations from brain-dead twits like yourself.

Actually, I take that back! As much as you revere your hero, I doubt even you weren't sucked in enough to donate your hard-earned to this prick!


Well, I hope you weren't!



.

[BlackAsCoal]

What? No link to your evedence so we can read what you wrote in context?

Typically devious of you, Blackas.

The NIST website FAQ covers the reasons why thermite could not have been used...

"12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.

The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.

Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.
Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions."


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

I hope you're enjoying your education, loony-toons!


:lmao2:

With all due respect .. there is a reason why you swallow. It's because you're stupid. It's just that simple.

"What? No link to your evedence so we can read what you wrote in context?

Typically devious of you, Blackas.

Proof that you're stupid and don't have the capacity for honest debate. All it takes is to scroll back through this thread to see if you or anyone else has posted more links, pictures, and supporting documentation than I have .. especially you. In fact, one poster commented that I post backup for what I say .. and you did not. I don't have to scroll back to know without a shadow of doubt that what you suggest is not only a lie, it's an easily disproved lie. Good debaters don't spout easily disproven lies.

The NIST website FAQ talks about thermite explosives BECAUSE a great many people were questioning them on why thet left the discovery of aluminothermic reactions by FEMA were left out of the NIST Report.

THUS, dummy .. as I said, NIST, in their 3 years in the making multi-million dollar report, did not address this critical and damaging evidence that was discovered by FEMA.

Regardless of your misbelief that it would require "hundreds of pounds of thermite" to weaken the structure, the question of where did these traces of aluminothermic reactions come from where never addressed by NIST and never determined by either FEMA or NIST. You believe that bullshit because that's what they shoved in your mouth, but you lack the intelligence to ask the second question.

You also wouldn't have the intelligence to ask the 3rd question .. where did all the molten iron and aluminum oxide come from? The molten iron remained hot for days .. which is indicative of a thermite explosion.

You would just open wide and swallow whatever bullshit they told you about this picture ...

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/theories/docs/st_spouts.jpg
These frames show the northeast corner of the South Tower seconds before its precipitous fall. The spout of orange molten metal and rising white smoke has the appearance of a thermite reaction.

There is only one sane reason why NIST left this, and many other critical pieces of evidence, out of their report .. they don't fit the fairy tale.

... and there is a very reason why you opened wide and swallowed the mindfuck of Iraq. It's because you're stupid. It's just that simple.

[Scumbag]

Proof that you're stupid and don't have the capacity for honest debate. Honest debate? I'm not interested in honest debate! My only interest here is to pull the piss out of you conspiracy nutbags!


THUS, dummy .. as I said, NIST, in their 3 years in the making multi-million dollar report, did not address this critical and damaging evidence that was discovered by FEMA.[/b]Well, cut my legs off and call me shorty! FEMA discovered that the WTC towers were brought down by a controlled demolition either by thermite or nuclear charges!

FEMA...The authority set up to deal with the emergency response to disasters in the US discovered that the 9/11 was an inside job!!

:lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2:

[Scumbag]

You also wouldn't have the intelligence to ask the 3rd question .. where did all the molten iron and aluminum oxide come from? The molten iron remained hot for days .. which is indicative of a thermite explosion.


How is molten iron indicitative of a thermite explosion?
What other explanations are there for this phenomenon?
Are you even interested in knowing the answers to these questions or is your mind already made up?

[BlackAsCoal]

Honest debate? I'm not interested in honest debate! My only interest here is to pull the piss out of you conspiracy nutbags!


Well, cut my legs off and call me shorty! FEMA discovered that the WTC towers were brought down by a controlled demolition either by thermite or nuclear charges!

FEMA...The authority set up to deal with the emergency response to disasters in the US discovered that the 9/11 was an inside job!!

:lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2:

You're just too dumb to respond to .. but if your intent is to "pull piss" :disbelief: .. which I assume to mean embarrass .. then you as miserable a failuire at that as your are in judgement.

[BlackAsCoal]

How is molten iron indicitative of a thermite explosion?
What other explanations are there for this phenomenon?
Are you even interested in knowing the answers to these questions or is your mind already made up?


Since you asked without the scumbagedness ...

Thermite Cable Cutter

United States Patent 3744369

An apparatus and method for severing a steel cable comprising a housing hng an upper reservoir and a lower work piece holder component, a flow gate extending downward from the reservoir through the work piece holder, port means positioned at the bottom of the housing, whereby on the ignition of the thermite mixture in the reservoir component, the resultant molten mass contacts the steel cable positioned in the work piece holder for a short period of time, thereby severing the cable.

Thermite

thermite [from Thermit, a trade name], mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide. When ignited it gives off large amounts of heat. In wartime it has been used in incendiary bombs. A method for welding using thermite (invented by Dr. Hans Goldschmidt, a German chemist) is variously called the Goldschmidt process, the thermit process, or the aluminothermic process; it is used in welding large parts, e.g., castings, shafts, pipes, and steel rails. In the process the thermite, contained in a crucible, is ignited, e.g., by a strip of burning magnesium ribbon. The aluminum reduces the iron oxide to molten iron and forms a slag of aluminum oxide on its surface. The reaction is very exothermic; temperatures above 2,500°C (4,500°F) are often reached. Typically, the molten iron is poured into the joint to be welded, providing both heat for fusion and filler metal. Excess metal may be removed when the weld cools. Because thermite reacts with explosive violence once ignited, it cannot be heated as a mass to its kindling temperature (about 1,550°C/2,800°F); Goldschmidt was first to find a method for igniting thermite without explosion. He used a similar method to prepare various metals, e.g., chromium, manganese, and uranium, from their oxides.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-thermite.html

2. There are no explantions for thermite evidence being found in the WTC buildings .. WHICH IS WHY they never explained it and barely addressed it.

3. Before you can claim to be interested in answers you first have to ask the questions .. which you aren't willing to do .. I am. YOU aren't interested in answers .. just support whatever went in your mouth.

The swallowers believe there is something anti-american about even asking sane, critical, and logical questions.

[Scumbag]

Since you asked without the scumbagedness ...

Thermite Cable Cutter

United States Patent 3744369

An apparatus and method for severing a steel cable comprising a housing hng an upper reservoir and a lower work piece holder component, a flow gate extending downward from the reservoir through the work piece holder, port means positioned at the bottom of the housing, whereby on the ignition of the thermite mixture in the reservoir component, the resultant molten mass contacts the steel cable positioned in the work piece holder for a short period of time, thereby severing the cable.

Thermite

thermite [from Thermit, a trade name], mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide. When ignited it gives off large amounts of heat. In wartime it has been used in incendiary bombs. A method for welding using thermite (invented by Dr. Hans Goldschmidt, a German chemist) is variously called the Goldschmidt process, the thermit process, or the aluminothermic process; it is used in welding large parts, e.g., castings, shafts, pipes, and steel rails. In the process the thermite, contained in a crucible, is ignited, e.g., by a strip of burning magnesium ribbon. The aluminum reduces the iron oxide to molten iron and forms a slag of aluminum oxide on its surface. The reaction is very exothermic; temperatures above 2,500°C (4,500°F) are often reached. Typically, the molten iron is poured into the joint to be welded, providing both heat for fusion and filler metal. Excess metal may be removed when the weld cools. Because thermite reacts with explosive violence once ignited, it cannot be heated as a mass to its kindling temperature (about 1,550°C/2,800°F); Goldschmidt was first to find a method for igniting thermite without explosion. He used a similar method to prepare various metals, e.g., chromium, manganese, and uranium, from their oxides.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-thermite.html

2. There are no explantions for thermite evidence being found in the WTC buildings .. WHICH IS WHY they never explained it and barely addressed it.

3. Before you can claim to be interested in answers you first have to ask the questions .. which you aren't willing to do .. I am. YOU aren't interested in answers .. just support whatever went in your mouth.

The swallowers believe there is something anti-american about even asking sane, critical, and logical questions.
I asked some reasonable questions and you answer with blackascoalness crap!

You didn't answer my first question. You gave me a run down on how thermite can cut a cable and weld railway tracks.

Again, how is molten iron indicitative of a thermite explosion? Let's try and keep it pertinent to the attacks on 9/11, please?

My second question was "What other explanations are there for this phenomenon?" Meaning what other explanations are there for the presence of molten iron? Besides thermite? Again, you did not answer my question.

As for the answer to my 3rd question....I DID ask the questions. You chose not to answer them.

Not because you don't know the answers, because with very little research, you could easliy find them, but because, as I correctly assessed, you have already closed your mind to the subject as evidenced by the fact that you have not even bothered to answer.

So, in my usual scumbagedness way.....go fuck yourself, you loony bastard!

[Scumbag]

You're just too dumb to respond to .. but if your intent is to "pull piss" :disbelief: .. which I assume to mean embarrass .. then you as miserable a failuire at that as your are in judgement.
Embarrass? Hahahahahahahahaha!!! :lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: You embarrass yourself more than I ever could!!!

A "piss pull", for your edification, is a taunt. A ragging. A sarcastic mimic of the inane actions of another.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=taking+the+piss

[Scumbag]

The swallowers believe there is something anti-american about even asking sane, critical, and logical questions.
That's the whole problem! You loony conspiracy theorists aren't asking questions...You've got these stupid ideas in your stupid heads about the government planning and executing an attack on itself for reasons that only you, in your stupidness, could understand and nothing, not even plausible, sensible, thought out reasoning and expert examination can shift you from it.

You ask questions, not because you want answers, but because you want to refute the answers in favor of the stupid theories that have spoon fed to you by peole who have decided to make money from events like 9/11.

Most of you, no all of you, are pawns in a huge money-spinning industry that, even if you were given a tour of the ins and outs of it, would still deny you are being used to line their pockets with donations to the "cause", profits from the sale of CD's & DVD's, books, tours, speaking events and all manner of other schemes these money grabbing assholes can dream up.

You are gullible, stupid a sad!

The really sad part is that there are so many of you!

[BlackAsCoal]

http://www.thepowerhour.com/images/911_wtc_images/stool.jpg

Let's see .. the same size and type aircraft carrying about the same amount of fuel that MELTED giant buildings .. not only didn't melt the Pentagon, but it obviously didn't even burn the pages of an open book, or burn the wooden stool, or melt the plastic on a monitor, even though this is right next to the impact site.

There isn't even any soot on the walls.

Hmmm .. miracle?

Hey .. when are they going to release the photos of the approaching plane .. which they must have given there are cameras all over the top of the Pentagon.

How about those confiscated photos from the gas station right across the street .. that didn't suffer any window damage as the "plane" flew overhead at near tree-top level?

Miracle

A 757 is alomst as tall as the Pentagon .. but the roof fell down in one piece .. [b]a half hour after the "plane" hit it .. there is little damge to the bottom of the structure .. and there are no skid marks on the lawn

Miracle

[BlackAsCoal]

http://www.thepowerhour.com/images/911_wtc_images/rpt2.jpg

WOW .. the roof is still intact after a big ass airplane almost as tall as the roof hit the Pentagon and didn't even leave skid marks on the ground

That is amazing

David Copperfield?

But Sir Nose, where of where is the giant gaping hole it must have left?

Here it is ...

http://www.thepowerhour.com/images/911_wtc_images/rpt2a.jpg

See it? .. If your move your head to the left and squint your right eye .. the giant gaping hole is clearly visible

WOW .. an amazing trick because the fucking windows aren't even broken

Houdini?

[BlackAsCoal]

http://www.thepowerhour.com/images/911_wtc_images/rpt2b.jpg

SHIT .. you could play a couple rounds of golf on that lawn .. and you wouldn't even have to worry about plane wreckage .. because there isn't any

That shit is amazing

http://www.thepowerhour.com/news/compall_1.JPG

Now we're talking real magic here .. how to make a giant ass airplane loaded with fuel .. which is carried in the wings .. disappear into a small hole, leave the roof intact, leave no skid marks on the still manicured lawn, leave no signs that the fuel-laden wings ever even touched the building .. and leave no bodies, luggage, 7ft tall engine, or any identifiable piece of the airplane visible.

WOW .. that's what I call real magic.

[Independent Harry]

I asked some reasonable questions and you answer with blackascoalness crap!

You didn't answer my first question. You gave me a run down on how thermite can cut a cable and weld railway tracks.

Again, how is molten iron indicitative of a thermite explosion? Let's try and keep it pertinent to the attacks on 9/11, please?

My second question was "What other explanations are there for this phenomenon?" Meaning what other explanations are there for the presence of molten iron? Besides thermite? Again, you did not answer my question.

As for the answer to my 3rd question....I DID ask the questions. You chose not to answer them.

Not because you don't know the answers, because with very little research, you could easliy find them, but because, as I correctly assessed, you have already closed your mind to the subject as evidenced by the fact that you have not even bothered to answer.

So, in my usual scumbagedness way.....go fuck yourself, you loony bastard!

There is no explanation for the molten iron, NIST acts completely unaware that it even existed.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7180303712325092501

Just more inconsistencies...

[Soupnazi]

http://www.thepowerhour.com/images/911_wtc_images/rpt2b.jpg

SHIT .. you could play a couple rounds of golf on that lawn .. and you wouldn't even have to worry about plane wreckage .. because there isn't any

That shit is amazing

http://www.thepowerhour.com/news/compall_1.JPG

Now we're talking real magic here .. how to make a giant ass airplane loaded with fuel .. which is carried in the wings .. disappear into a small hole, leave the roof intact, leave no skid marks on the still manicured lawn, leave no signs that the fuel-laden wings ever even touched the building .. and leave no bodies, luggage, 7ft tall engine, or any identifiable piece of the airplane visible.

WOW .. that's what I call real magic.
Thats because your pictures are photoshopped

There was significant wreckage recovered and scattered on the lawn the plane did not touch the lawn but it did plow through tall lightposts and even a large generator while on it's way to the building and scores of people SAW it .
There is no mystery or magic about it.

[Independent Harry]

Thats because your pictures are photoshopped

There was significant wreckage recovered and scattered on the lawn the plane did not touch the lawn but it did plow through tall lightposts and even a large generator while on it's way to the building and scores of people SAW it .
There is no mystery or magic about it.

HAHAHAHAH, if the pictures are photoshopped please show us the un=--photoshopped one. How about this, if you find pictures that show something different, I'll admit 911 was perpretrated by Islamic Terrorists and America was justified in going into these two wars. that' show confident I am you are spouting shit out of that thing that should be your ass...

[Binky]

Good grief! Look how much time you airheads have wasted in posting all this crapola. You all sit and speil, speil, speil and not one of you is going to sway anyone to your way of thinking. With you, it's all about being right.

What a bunch of blockheads you all are. :banghead: Move onto another thread, boneheads, and get over yourselves.

[Independent Harry]

Good grief! Look how much time you airheads have wasted in posting all this crapola. You all sit and speil, speil, speil and not one of you is going to sway anyone to your way of thinking. With you, it's all about being right.

What a bunch of blockheads you all are. :banghead: Move onto another thread, boneheads, and get over yourselves.

No :)... I will not...

[BlackAsCoal]

Good grief! Look how much time you airheads have wasted in posting all this crapola. You all sit and speil, speil, speil and not one of you is going to sway anyone to your way of thinking. With you, it's all about being right.

What a bunch of blockheads you all are. :banghead: Move onto another thread, boneheads, and get over yourselves.

OR, you could just find and/or create a thread that interests you, then post your wisdom there .. instead of a fruitless and kinda' silly attempt to dictate what other people you don't know should be posting.