Well, I guess I don't support the troops anymore...

[Bill]

NBC just had a segment showcasing soldiers saying it's wrong to support the troops but not to support the war.

So I guess the point of the story is "fuck the troops".

I have to admit I'm starting to feel that way. The people in power don't give a fuck, why should anybody else.

It's an interesting insight into how people stopped "supporting the troops" during vietnam.

Somehow the impression starts to grow that our soldiers are enjoying bullying an occupied people a bit too much.

I imagine that's what happened with vietnam.

[exarmyranger]

Yo Bill,I have'nt seen the tapes,so I'm guessing here...But could they be saying,in part,they believe in their Com.and will follow whatever agenda,as orderd...As they have sworn to,by Oath.So if one does'nt support/stand/ with/or behind the supreme com.they should not bother to support them.Or are they saying As long as your bitching about something you know next to nothing about(The Real,Real Deal behind,The Real Deal behind the real reason,behind the reason.)We(service personell)do'nt know either,and it does'nt matter.If you do'nt support the Effort,do'nt bother to support us either.We are the Effort...Compare S.E.Asia,various N.A.T.O. Multi National(PeaceKeeping&Bordercontrol)or combat for short.Along with troop training D.I.'s & T.I.'s,logistics advisor's/analyst's.In,or on the continent of Africa...,Central,South American cuops.The drug wars.the gulf war(s)Now this comedy of errors,Iraq!Hard for me to say this since I've served in most of the above actions.So far as comparing those M.A.'s with Iraq?All have one thing in common,aside from death,destuction,and trying to give more than you may recieve.Most the Men I fought beside did'nt have a fucking clue as to what the real,agenda,behind the really real agen....T/C Bill, ex.

[Bill]

Well, I'm pretty sure the editing of the segment was intentional - I'm sure they could have found plenty of soldiers who would have said "This war is a shitty idea, get me out of here.".

But I found the emotions it triggered off interesting and disturbing.

The one soldier, as he was edited, seemed to be saying "Because my friends died you have to support this war, if you don't you don't support the troops.".

To which I get this strong gut response - "Now wait a fucking minute - you're telling me I'm a fuck if I don't support this war, the war that killed your friends, because your friends died in the stupid war?".

The logic is barbaric, it's pure emotional blackmail.

When I was young, I must have missed the whole 'be mean to vietnam vets' thing. I never saw anybody be anything but nice to the vets, even tho I remember vets that looked and acted haunted.

But the way I reacted to that news segment made me understand how people could get mad at soldiers for fighting in an unpopular war.

The real fucks are the people who created that news segment, manipulating soldiers to try to guilt trip viewers. And the people who mismanged this war.

[Linkster]

I remember well the attitude towards troops/soldiers/sailors etc during vietnam and it was terrible - chicks in a bar would turn the other way to avoid them, people would cross the street to avoid having to talk to them etc etc - it sucked big time

Unfortunately it also helped to bring the vets into the peace movement and worked in the end to the advantage

As far as supporting the troops - most Americans think that supporting the troops is putting a little ribbon on their car just like the bumper stickers that say their kid was in the top of their class (fucking little narcissists) - and thats as far as it goes. Thats why I support completely a call for the draft - it will end this war faster than any other means cause I can guarantee you that once its soccer moms kid that has to give up his xbox and mom-provided cell phone and car, mom is gonna be screaming on the streets of Wash DC when that boy comes home in a box

[Bill]

Linkster, the thing I'm curious about is _why_ were they mean to them?

What was the rationale, the thought process and the emotional process?

How the hell could anybody blame a drafted kid for being in vietnam?

I'm wondering if it was like the feelings that news segment triggered off in me?

I had two or three main emotional reactions.

The first was feeling emotionally blackmailed, like I said.

The second was a dark suspicion that the soldiers _liked_ torturing the ragheads, that this was what is was all about for them. Over there every grunt can beat, abuse, curse at, and kill a raghead without much risk of repercussion, and be slapped on the back and bought drinks by his buddies after shooting up a car following too close.

Is that what it's all about for the troops? Kids who would be serving fries here in the states getting off on the power of slapping arabs around? That's what I felt.

Is that why chicks would ignore vets in bars, and people would cross the street - because their was a pervading belief that the vietnam vets liked the power they had to kill gooks?

I was a country boy at that time - like I said, I never saw anybody do anything to a vet but get him a beer and allow him not to talk about the nam.

[Linkster]

Bill - the reason? It seemed that they were part of the "establishment" at the time - and everything was all about anti-establishment - unfortunately it was not overcome till quite a few years after the war when people started realizing that it wasnt the kids fault they got drafted - and did what they were told. I think if memory serves corrrectly the first parade welcoming viet vets home didnt occur till some MIA's (found 5 years after the end of the war) came home - and again if memory serves well it was after a few movies like Deerhunter and others that portrayed the nasty attitudes.

I really dont remember it having anything to do with who they could kill over there - it was more a prevailing attitude of(based primarily on ignorance) anti anyone you couldnt trust (and trust was not there for people in the military)

It reminded me of the attitudes taken towards black people in the south when I was growing up - a very separationist almost racial slur type attitude.

[Bill]

Man, that just doesn't make any sense to me.

I mean, maybe it was because the national guard shot all those people at Kent State?

I remember that, the shock of it, very vividly. American kids shot to death by american soldiers for daring to exercise the american freedom to publicly assemble and petition the government for redress.

---

You know, I can understand the chick thing - why should hippie chicks fuck soldiers? Chicks are always ganging up and refusing to fuck some class of men or another. You can hardly blame the chicks for that.

It's not like soldiers have the right to fuck hippie chicks just because they are soldiers. I'm sure they could find plenty of girls to fuck them just because they were soldiers. I'm not under the impression soldiers should expect they have the right to have all chicks agree to fuck them just becaus ethey are soldiers.

The whole Lysistrata thing - no sex with men who fight. That was a big hippie chick thing, as I recall.

[Linkster]

Bill - quite honestly it wasnt just hippie chicks - it was everyone as I remember it - in the bars (which hippie chicks didnt frequest BTW) the chicks that hung out with the "jocks" were the same way - and the jocks and students (yep even the shorthaired college students that werent walking out on campus) were the same way - it wasnt just the chicks.
The Kent St thing happened halfway through my memories of these things so although it magnified the feelings, it wasnt the cause

[Bill]

That doesn't make any sense.

You're saying the jocks and the mrs degrees treated the soldiers bad too?

The same people who love O'Reilly and Limbaugh now?

That's one of the stranger things I've heard.

I wonder if it explains this war? All those right wing suburbanite anti-hippie middle classers trying to expunge their guilt over a completely illogical mistreatment of lower class boys drafted to occupy the nam?

I wonder if it was a DC thing?

That is just so bizarre. Why would people blame, fear, and shun soldiers?

(Well, I did get angry at the emotional blackmail of that news segment...)

The only people shit on worse than grunt soldiers are lower-class minimum-wage slaves.

[Linkster]

Bill - it may be just a DC thing since thats where I was prior to entering the military - but as far as the feelings I think it was portrayed quite well in both that movie I posted earlier and ForrestGump as well - although that second one wasnt as accurate at portraying what was really happening in DC, it was close

As far as those people that are the mindless drivels nowadays - they certainly did have those same attitudes back then - amazingly the anti-war sentiment was not limited to hippies as has been shown recently - it was a rather large cross-section of the country - especially after the pentagon papers were released showing the made up stuff the president was spouting.

[exarmyranger]

Yo Linkster,Bill,Both of you,aside from your personal experience/recollection's,involving returning servicemen,and the public's reaction's toward them are true...as they varied,quite alot,Rural,or Country folk,in the mid.& lower South,and S.West,were less likely to spit on,and/or curse at returning vets,than most N.E./N.W.states.Draftee's designated as "Conciencious Objectors"were not required (or wanted)to serve in offencive combat field units,although many were posted at forward ops.bases,and came under fire,anyway.No grunt,"leg" (A.B.R.slang for any enlisted service personell,who is'nt AirBourne)with the exception of those who were sochiopathic,sadistic,S.O.B.'s,before Nam.And those who went dinky-dao.Kill Crazy.While there.Killed for the pleasure of it(perhaps because there is no pleasure in killing another human being for a sane person)Hate for,and vengence for a friend(s)killer/captor,is never subdued by the killing of other's fighting under the same banner.Hate,only grows,the need for vengence can't be satisfied by killing 1 or 1.000.000.It is an illuision! The Ohio National Guardsman,who shot and killed the girl.Joined the NG,as was his or anyone's choice upon recieving the letter titled"Greeting's from The President of the United State's of America".A scared shitinhispants kid,with a loaded M1 Carbine here in the states,or a (chance were high at the time)corpse in a bag being sent home to Mom&Dad...In the 6yrs (close to 5 of them in S.E.Asia),I was Army.I came stateside twice,in mid.feb. till the first week of apr.1970,and nov.73 till mid.Jan.74.The second time I wore Levi's,cowboy boots(dingo's)a longsleeved pearl snapdown black denim shirt and a leather flyers jacket.I was not asked or accused of anything in reguards to Nam,unlike my first visit home,it seemed the people were either "over it"(protests,demostrations)or they thought it(the war) was over...Either way Was fine with me,No parade still but noone called me a monster or spit at my passing either.cya,ex

[exarmyranger]

That doesn't make any sense.

You're saying the jocks and the mrs degrees treated the soldiers bad too?

The same people who love O'Reilly and Limbaugh now?

That's one of the stranger things I've heard.

I wonder if it explains this war? All those right wing suburbanite anti-hippie middle classers trying to expunge their guilt over a completely illogical mistreatment of lower class boys drafted to occupy the nam?

I wonder if it was a DC thing?

That is just so bizarre. Why would people blame, fear, and shun soldiers?

(Well, I did get angry at the emotional blackmail of that news segment...)

The only people shit on worse than grunt soldiers are lower-class minimum-wage slaves.The loudest voices speaking against the war in Nam.Abbie Hoffman,Jerry Rubin,Tom Brown,Yippies in general were mostly from upper mid class,or wealthy homes and did not run much risk of being drafted anyway.(as long as they stayed in colledge and held a c.average.Middle & lower mid. class while far more likely to be drafted,were not protesting against anything to earn media attention.One thing that bothered me though was Blacks yelling about being poor,under-educated,victoms of the draft...The fact is less than 10% of those who served in Nam.were of the Afro/american race.t/c ex