Russian SS-21 Nuclear Missile Launchers Confirmed in South Ossetia [Archive]

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Smurf-Herder

08-14-2008, 08:35 PM

I think Disrupter brought this up in an0ther thread; and I brushed it aside as a general comment by the Russians, without checking into it fully. But it appears to now be confirmed by a White House press briefing that Russia has moved two launchers into South Ossetia.

Note - SS-21s can carry a conventional or tactical nuclear warhead. At least a dozen conventional warheads were fired into Georgia over the past few days. But these are considered very ineffective, compared to conventional aerial bombing. And SS-21s were considered the nuclear threat that triggered Reagan putting Pershing-2 missiles into Europe back in the 80s. It apparently caused a lot of concern when Bush was notified of this development on Friday.

Russians move 2 SS-21 Medium Range Ballistic Missile Launchers into South Ossetia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/9P129_tochka.jpg/300px-

Col. Sam Gardiner notes, in an interview with Amy Goodman on Democracy Now Russia has deployed tactical nuclear weapons to South Ossetia. The SS-21 Missile launchers are relatively weak compared to bombs (the conventional version) that have already been used against Georgia by the Russian air force. However, this move does indicate Russia is potentially upping the game from a conventional weapons war to a tactical nuclear weapons war. Gardiner notes that at a news conference on Sunday, the US Deputy National Security advisor has noted these weapons arriving in South Ossetia.

http://freeandindependent.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/russians-move-2-ss-21-medium-range-ballistic-missile-launchers-into-south-ossetia/

Press Briefing by Press Secretary Dana Perino and Senior Director for East Asian Affairs Dennis Wilder and Deputy National Security Advisor Ambassador Jim Jeffrey

In terms of how we've responded to this, the President was informed immediately on Friday, when we received news of the first two SS-21 Russian missile launchers into Georgian territory. He immediately -- this was at the Great Hall -- he immediately met with President Putin. They had a discussion. The President then engaged with his national security staff continuously over the last two days. He has spoken with -- again with Putin that evening. He then talked with President Medvedev yesterday evening, as well as President Saakashvili. Secretary Rice has spoken repeatedly with President Saakashvili, as well as with her Russian counterpart, Foreign Minister Lavrov, and many European leaders.

Admiral Mullen, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, is in contact with his Russian counterpart. Ambassador Negroponte, the number two in the State Department, called in the Russian chargé on Friday to lay out our position. We have been in further contact with the Russians today, and we will continue to be in contact. In addition, it is quite possible that the President will speak with President Sarkozy of France, who, of course, has the presidency of the European Union at the moment.

link (http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/template.NDM/news/more/?javax.portlet.tpst=0b2c9a4dd5f89b80977dd367cc87b4 2f_ws_MX&javax.portlet.prp_0b2c9a4dd5f89b80977dd367cc87b42f _viewID=news_view_popup&javax.portlet.prp_0b2c9a4dd5f89b80977dd367cc87b42f _newsLang=en&javax.portlet.prp_0b2c9a4dd5f89b80977dd367cc87b42f _ndmHsc=v2*A1215860400000*B1218521888000*DgroupByD ate*J2*L1*N1000837*Zjim%20jeffrey&javax.portlet.prp_0b2c9a4dd5f89b80977dd367cc87b42f _newsId=20080810005040&beanID=202776713&viewID=news_)

Scumbag

08-14-2008, 08:48 PM

Smurf-Herder

08-14-2008, 09:03 PM

Couldn't let this one slide by...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/14/russia.georgia

I think I'll need to make a slight change to my signature!!

:read:

Those are defensive missiles, btw - and only have 10 interceptors, inntended to defend against Iranian missiles. Either way, invading then deploying nuclear capable missile launchers in an occupied country is a serious escalation.

BTW, I'm glad you responded. I found something for you, specifically. Do you trust Human Rights Watch?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2558812/Russia-destroying-military-bases-in-Georgia.html

"A tense stand-off ensued as the Georgians retreated 200 yards. Drunk South Ossetian irregulars, manning the checkpoint alongside the Russian soldiers, most of them drawn from a Chechen battalion, began to barrack onlookers. One fired his handgun into the air as his colleagues robbed passers-by of their vehicles. Moments later, Russian field guns fired shells at what was said to be an ammunitions dump behind a nearby hill."

"Meanwhile, South Ossetian irregulars continuing to loot and pillage in Gori and nearby Georgian villages, often with the encouragement of Russian troops.

"Take whatever you want," a Russian officer shouted at the Ossetian militiamen in one village.

Fears of Balkans-style reprisals by South Ossetian fighters have grown since they entered Georgian territory after the ceasefire was agreed.

Human Rights Watch accused Russia of inflaming the mood of the irregulars by exaggerating the number of civilian deaths in the secessionist province of South Ossetia since Georgia attempted to win back the region last Friday.

The Kremlin has accused Georgia or perpetrating a genocide in the region, claiming that 1,600 civilians had been killed. But Human Rights Watch, a respected New York based advocacy group that monitors abuses around the world, said it had so far only been able to find evidence of 44 civilian deaths in South Ossetia."

Ever hear of "Russian Propaganda"?

Scumbag

08-14-2008, 09:22 PM

Those are defensive missiles, btw - and only have 10 interceptors, inntended to defend against Iranian missiles. Either way, invading then deploying nuclear capable missile launchers in an occupied country is a serious escalation.Boy, they really have got you sucked in!

Those defensive missiles can also prevent a country like Russia from retaliation during a pre-emptive strike against them. And lets' face it, we are not above orchestrating or performing pre-emptive strikes, are we?

Oh, I couldn't find the part where your article says they deployed in Georgia. Could you point it out for me?

Smurf-Herder

08-14-2008, 09:43 PM

Boy, they really have got you sucked in!

Those defensive missiles can also prevent a country like Russia from retaliation during a pre-emptive strike against them. And lets' face it, we are not above orchestrating or performing pre-emptive strikes, are we?

Oh, I couldn't find the part where your article says they deployed in Georgia. Could you point it out for me?

How can ten missiles prevent a retaliatory strike from 2500 missiles?

And what US president would be stupid enough to launch a full scale nuclear attack against Russia?

Have you ever heard of the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction (M.A.D.)?

Every country in the world (except for Russia) considers South Ossetia part of the soverign territory of Georgia. And Russia agreed to the terms of the ceasefire, which require them to withdraw to pre-August 6th positions.

There is no way in hell you can justify this, legally. Russia is violating their own ceasefire agreement, brokered by European leaders and agreed to by both sides. You don't have a leg to stand on, except your emotional argument. And I ask you again, why is this specific situation in Georgia so important to you, personally, that you can completely ignore Russia's disproportionate response and violations of the ceasefire agreement they agreed to just 48 hours ago?

travelnook

08-14-2008, 09:54 PM

Shouldn't something have been done already, if Bush was informed of this earlier?

Smurf-Herder

08-14-2008, 10:09 PM

Shouldn't something have been done already, if Bush was informed of this earlier?

It seems like they're playing it low-key. Because there isn't much we can do, without turning this into a cuban missile crisis type situation. At least not unless there is no other choice.

I keep wondering what the rest of the Russian military is doing, while everybody is looking at Georgia. And what our government might know, that it isn't making public; or that the media hasn't bothered to focus on.

Scumbag

08-14-2008, 11:04 PM

How can ten missiles prevent a retaliatory strike from 2500 missiles? I wasn't necessarily referring to a nuke attack by the US, but now you mention it!!

And what US president would be stupid enough to launch a full scale nuclear attack against Russia? Ummm, one that has enough defenses to destroy any chance of retaliation...

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080618/111155009.html

Have you ever heard of the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction (M.A.D.)? Won't apply if the Russians can't answer back.

Every country in the world (except for Russia) considers South Ossetia part of the soverign territory of Georgia. You forgot South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

And I ask you again, why is this specific situation in Georgia so important to you, personally, that you can completely ignore Russia's disproportionate response and violations of the ceasefire agreement they agreed to just 48 hours ago?I don't remember you asking me that question...I could ask the same of you!

I have many Russian friends. I have visited many times. While many of them have not been happy with the politics and military decisions made by their leaders in the past, they are adamant, to a man, that Putin is doing the right thing in order to protect Russian citizens. They see the unprovoked attacks on the South Ossetians as a serious threat to themselves, particularly, as it seems to them that the US is behind the attacks.

After listening to them and reading up on the whole situation, I mostly agree with them. I know there have been clashes in the past and there have been civilian losses on both sides and both sides are claiming one side is worse than the other, but you need to understand the mindset of the Russian people who can still remember the Cold War. They see what is going on now as US imperialism and an attempt at world domination in the name of democracy.

Don't make the mistake of underestimating what Russia will be prepared to do if they feel threatened. Their philosophy is completely different to ours. They have proven time and time again, they will never back down from defending their own country, even if it means their own demise and the demise of their enemies. If bringing down their enemy means they go down too, then so be it!

So far, the US government is well aware of this, but if they able to neutralize the Russians retaliatory capabilities the Russians feel they will be declared "open season".

Russians feel like they are being backed into a corner. That is why they resist with as much force as they feel necessary. It's the level of what they see as necessary that you should be more concerned about!

You're turn!

disrupter

08-15-2008, 02:22 PM

The US has acted recklessly in attacking Iraq,

now we are surprised when the [recently] oil empowered Russians do similarly?

only as people most often do they take it just a little bit farther.

If you want to live in a civilized world don't wait for it to come bite you on the ass,
you start by acting as civilly as you can on your own.

Bush & the neocons have exposed the USA as morally bankrupt.
We don't have even a hollow leg left to stand on.

Although it was the bullying Georgian pipsqueak POLITICIAN who did facilitate Russia's only too ready aggression.

disrupter

08-15-2008, 02:25 PM

Bullying backfires,
when there are other, willing bullies.

Capitalism - getting all the bullies on the same side (see gangsters)

Putin is the quintessential neocon,
robberbaron gangster in the 'name' of the state.

Smurf-Herder

08-17-2008, 09:57 AM

I wasn't necessarily referring to a nuke attack by the US, but now you mention it!!

Ummm, one that has enough defenses to destroy any chance of retaliation...

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080618/111155009.html

Won't apply if the Russians can't answer back.

You forgot South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

I don't remember you asking me that question...I could ask the same of you!

I have many Russian friends. I have visited many times. While many of them have not been happy with the politics and military decisions made by their leaders in the past, they are adamant, to a man, that Putin is doing the right thing in order to protect Russian citizens. They see the unprovoked attacks on the South Ossetians as a serious threat to themselves, particularly, as it seems to them that the US is behind the attacks.

After listening to them and reading up on the whole situation, I mostly agree with them. I know there have been clashes in the past and there have been civilian losses on both sides and both sides are claiming one side is worse than the other, but you need to understand the mindset of the Russian people who can still remember the Cold War. They see what is going on now as US imperialism and an attempt at world domination in the name of democracy.

Don't make the mistake of underestimating what Russia will be prepared to do if they feel threatened. Their philosophy is completely different to ours. They have proven time and time again, they will never back down from defending their own country, even if it means their own demise and the demise of their enemies. If bringing down their enemy means they go down too, then so be it!

So far, the US government is well aware of this, but if they able to neutralize the Russians retaliatory capabilities the Russians feel they will be declared "open season".

Russians feel like they are being backed into a corner. That is why they resist with as much force as they feel necessary. It's the level of what they see as necessary that you should be more concerned about!

You're turn!

Russia never left the Cold War mindset.

We offered repeatedly to share the BMD technology with them; but they refused. Doesn't it tell you something, that they'd rather make sure we're more vulnerable to an attack, than having the same technolgy to defend themselves?

They want to maintain the ability to intimidate Europe; and also our vulnerability to surrogates like Iran.

BTW, putting SS-21s in Ossetia changes the equation, because they've put nuclear capable systems in a disputed region of a country who is a US ally, within range of a US base in Turkey.

Which would mean our countering, by placing tactical nukes in Florida, within range of Cuba.

Scumbag

08-17-2008, 11:03 AM

Russia never left the Cold War mindset.

We offered repeatedly to share the BMD technology with them; but they refused. Doesn't it tell you something, that they'd rather make sure we're more vulnerable to an attack, than having the same technolgy to defend themselves?You'll have to provide a link to that statement. All I can find is the US refusal to have anything to do with sharing anything with Russia.

They want to maintain the ability to intimidate Europe; and also our vulnerability to surrogates like Iran.

BTW, putting SS-21s in Ossetia changes the equation, because they've put nuclear capable systems in a disputed region of a country who is a US ally, within range of a US base in Turkey.

Which would mean our countering, by placing tactical nukes in Florida, within range of Cuba.Who's trying to outflank who, here?

Russia believes that the US is influence is spreading like a disease throughout Europe and they believe that the intention is to disable Russia's capability to defend itself. If so, who hasn't let go of the Cold War mindset?

Russia has offered it's radar resources to the US in an attempt to create a shield designed to protect ALL countries in Eastern Europe and the rejection of that proposal raises a big question in the minds of the Russians as to the real motivation of the US in wanting to place an umbrella over Europe at the exclusion of Russia.....

"If the United States rejects President Vladimir Putin's proposal to share an early warning radar in Azerbaijan, that would show Washington's real intentions, he said.

"That is a litmus test," Baluyevsky said. "The entire world will see the true aim of this system."

Baluyevsky described the U.S. plans as part of an effort to weaken Russia's nuclear deterrent; he referred to what he called U.S. Cold War-era plans for a disarming nuclear first strike, using missile defenses, that would deprive Russia of the ability to retaliate."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/21/news/shield.php

I said it before and I'll say it again...It would be extremely unwise to back Russia into a corner on this issue... As at this date there is no system in place to protect any countries from a pre-emptive nuclear attack.

You should be more concerned about Russia's threat to target Poland if they allow the US to station their interceptors there. You should be 1000 times more concerned about that than a perceived threat that someday Iran will have nuclear weapons capability.

One more thing worthy of note...
Can you be 100% sure that Russia does not have the capability to intercept any number of nuclear missiles fired at them and if they did, and an attack was thwarted, do you know how many missiles would come back?

Smurf-Herder

08-18-2008, 08:10 PM

You'll have to provide a link to that statement. All I can find is the US refusal to have anything to do with sharing anything with Russia.

Who's trying to outflank who, here?

Russia believes that the US is influence is spreading like a disease throughout Europe and they believe that the intention is to disable Russia's capability to defend itself. If so, who hasn't let go of the Cold War mindset?

Russia has offered it's radar resources to the US in an attempt to create a shield designed to protect ALL countries in Eastern Europe and the rejection of that proposal raises a big question in the minds of the Russians as to the real motivation of the US in wanting to place an umbrella over Europe at the exclusion of Russia.....

"If the United States rejects President Vladimir Putin's proposal to share an early warning radar in Azerbaijan, that would show Washington's real intentions, he said.

"That is a litmus test," Baluyevsky said. "The entire world will see the true aim of this system."

Baluyevsky described the U.S. plans as part of an effort to weaken Russia's nuclear deterrent; he referred to what he called U.S. Cold War-era plans for a disarming nuclear first strike, using missile defenses, that would deprive Russia of the ability to retaliate."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/21/news/shield.php

I said it before and I'll say it again...It would be extremely unwise to back Russia into a corner on this issue... As at this date there is no system in place to protect any countries from a pre-emptive nuclear attack.

You should be more concerned about Russia's threat to target Poland if they allow the US to station their interceptors there. You should be 1000 times more concerned about that than a perceived threat that someday Iran will have nuclear weapons capability.

One more thing worthy of note...
Can you be 100% sure that Russia does not have the capability to intercept any number of nuclear missiles fired at them and if they did, and an attack was thwarted, do you know how many missiles would come back?

First of all, Russia (and you) have an entirely backwards perspective - compared to at least my thinking.

With the fall of the Soviet Union, I thought everybody was to basically turn capitalist, reasizing Communism didn't work. But Russia has maintained that "enemy" concept of the West. At least it has resurged since Poontang came to power. Under Yeltsin, they were just another big democracy, with Europe helping them get through the transition, economically.

Now they're an energy giant, supplying one third of Europe's energy. With a military we helped become a superpower adain with our giving them money to scrap old nukes; which they used to build newer and better nukes btw.

Anyway, we've offered to share the technology with them several times, since Clinton.

BTW, the Russian radars would not be the corrct technology, or the right location. The radars need to be in certain positions, physically, in relation to the network. It involves continuous, extremely precise triangulation through an entire flightpath of a target. We're setting up X-band radars, globally. There are already radars in Alaska, Japan, England, Greenland; and I think three more are planned for Australia, Israel and Poland, or the Czech Republic (I forgot who gets the radar and who gets the interceptors).

Clinton offers to share missile defense technology
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/05/31/clinton.eu.03/index.html

Rice, Russians to talk missile defense
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-04-25-419180181_x.htm

"Russia has repeatedly rejected U.S. overtures on missile defense, including offers to share technology on combatting new threats from the Middle East, notably from Iran, saying it has no interest in cooperating on a program it fears will harm its strategic interests."