Obama wows them in Germany.

[bairdi]

After eight years of ineptitude that has led to America's image being greatly tarnished by the current administration, Obama, in one short speech before a crowd of 200,000 has undone much of the damage. In other news, McCain wowed a crowd of some 20 odd people at an Arizona diner Sunday and sat down last night with Faux News propagandist and media whore Sean Hannity to whine about press coverage.

Some 200,000 Gather to Hear Obama in Germany

Posted By Mary Lu Carnevale On July 24, 2008 @ 2:52 pm In Campaign 2008 | 31 Comments

Jay Solomon reports on the Obama visit to Europe.

An estimated 200,000 packed into downtown Berlin Thursday night to hear Barack Obama give his much-anticipated European address.
obama_berlin_art_400_20080724151242.jpg
Barack Obama addresses a crowd estimated at 200,000 in Berlin. (Associated Press)

Wearing a dark suit and light-blue tie, the Democratic presidential candidate casually strode onto a stage placed at the foot of Berlin’s Victory Column to intermittent chants of “Obama, Obama, Obama.”

Obama hit the theme early of a history of U.S.-German cooperation and the rejuvenation of Berlin following World War II.

“I come to Berlin as so many of my countrymen have come before,” Obama told the crowd. “Tonight, I speak to you not as a candidate for president, but as a citizen – a proud citizen of the United States, and a fellow citizen of the world.”

Obama’s speech was not translated simultaneously into German, seeming to leave the crowd flat at times. He didn’t get much response for his calls for greater German participation in the war in Afghanistan.

Still, Obama drew wide applause for his calls to end to the Iraq war and to halt the spread of nuclear weapons – and when he mentioned Washington’s failures in recent years.

“I know my country has not perfected itself,” Obama said to wide applause. “At times, we’ve struggled to keep the promise of liberty and equality for all of our people.”

Article printed from Washington Wire - WSJ.com: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire

URL to article: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/07/24/some-200000-gather-to-hear-obama-in-germany/

[asroc]

McCain is on the news complaining about Obama's coverage. He's standing in front of the cheese aisle in a grocery store. Not to mention that McCain cancelled his press events for the two days prior. It's hard to get press coverage when you don't do press events.

This is pretty hilarious, considering the McCain campaign challenged Obama to go overseas.

[SeedyROM]

The media are biased and manipulative, there's a ton of proof. Just ask Hillary Clinton, she received the same bias. After complaints, the media moved back towards a neutral stance. The media are infested with hateful degenerates who love to play thier bias in favor of one party. They cook the books on the truth all the time, history is what they make of it.

[Smurf-Herder]

I think this is an interesting aspect of the whole thing, the Germans are picking up on (from Der Speigal):

Is Obama Speech Site Contaminated by Nazi Past?

Finally, Barack Obama's campaign has settled on a site for his Berlin speech. But some German politicians have now criticized his choice as being one full of Nazi-related symbolism.

Still, even as the issue of his speech's location has now been settled, a number of politicians in Berlin are still dissatisfied with the site. The Siegessäule -- or Victory Column -- was erected in memory of Prussia's victories over Denmark (1864), Austria (1866) and France (1870/71). The column originally stood in front of the Reichstag, Germany's parliament building, but was moved by Adolf Hitler to its current location in 1939 to make way for his planned transformation of Berlin into the Nazi capital "Germania."

"The Siegessäule in Berlin was moved to where it is now by Adolf Hitler. He saw it as a symbol of German superiority and of the victorious wars against Denmark, Austria and France," the deputy leader of the Free Democrats, Rainer Brüderle, told Bild am Sonntag. He raised the question as to "whether Barack Obama was advised correctly in his choice of the Siegessäule as the site to hold a speech on his vision for a more cooperative world."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,566920,00.html

[oneway]

Are you drunk? this empty head promised the world to solve every problem.

Germans are angry. Ameericans hate Obama. Mc Cain is surging with no press!

[Independent Harry]

I think this is an interesting aspect of the whole thing, the Germans are picking up on (from Der Speigal):

Is Obama Speech Site Contaminated by Nazi Past?

Finally, Barack Obama's campaign has settled on a site for his Berlin speech. But some German politicians have now criticized his choice as being one full of Nazi-related symbolism.

Still, even as the issue of his speech's location has now been settled, a number of politicians in Berlin are still dissatisfied with the site. The Siegessäule -- or Victory Column -- was erected in memory of Prussia's victories over Denmark (1864), Austria (1866) and France (1870/71). The column originally stood in front of the Reichstag, Germany's parliament building, but was moved by Adolf Hitler to its current location in 1939 to make way for his planned transformation of Berlin into the Nazi capital "Germania."

"The Siegessäule in Berlin was moved to where it is now by Adolf Hitler. He saw it as a symbol of German superiority and of the victorious wars against Denmark, Austria and France," the deputy leader of the Free Democrats, Rainer Brüderle, told Bild am Sonntag. He raised the question as to "whether Barack Obama was advised correctly in his choice of the Siegessäule as the site to hold a speech on his vision for a more cooperative world."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,566920,00.html

wow they're really reaching again smurfy...

[Smurf-Herder]

wow they're really reaching again smurfy...

Not that much of a reach, with the way this guy comes across, IMO.

There's a certain irony to all this.

I was joking about it in work as being his "Second Coming of Adolph Christ's, Ask not what you can do for your Country, but Have a Dream", speech.

[Frankg]

After eight years of ineptitude that has led to America's image being greatly tarnished by the current administration, Obama, in one short speech before a crowd of 200,000 has undone much of the damage. In other news, McCain wowed a crowd of some 20 odd people at an Arizona diner Sunday and sat down last night with Faux News propagandist and media whore Sean Hannity to whine about press coverage.

Some 200,000 Gather to Hear Obama in Germany

Posted By Mary Lu Carnevale On July 24, 2008 @ 2:52 pm In Campaign 2008 | 31 Comments

Jay Solomon reports on the Obama visit to Europe.

An estimated 200,000 packed into downtown Berlin Thursday night to hear Barack Obama give his much-anticipated European address.
obama_berlin_art_400_20080724151242.jpg
Barack Obama addresses a crowd estimated at 200,000 in Berlin. (Associated Press)

Wearing a dark suit and light-blue tie, the Democratic presidential candidate casually strode onto a stage placed at the foot of Berlin’s Victory Column to intermittent chants of “Obama, Obama, Obama.”

Obama hit the theme early of a history of U.S.-German cooperation and the rejuvenation of Berlin following World War II.

“I come to Berlin as so many of my countrymen have come before,” Obama told the crowd. “Tonight, I speak to you not as a candidate for president, but as a citizen – a proud citizen of the United States, and a fellow citizen of the world.”

Obama’s speech was not translated simultaneously into German, seeming to leave the crowd flat at times. He didn’t get much response for his calls for greater German participation in the war in Afghanistan.

Still, Obama drew wide applause for his calls to end to the Iraq war and to halt the spread of nuclear weapons – and when he mentioned Washington’s failures in recent years.

“I know my country has not perfected itself,” Obama said to wide applause. “At times, we’ve struggled to keep the promise of liberty and equality for all of our people.”

Article printed from Washington Wire - WSJ.com: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire

URL to article: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/07/24/some-200000-gather-to-hear-obama-in-germany/

Glad to see BO has time to make fake speeches to the german people but no time to visit wounded US soldiers in Rammstein and Landstuhl military bases .
Barack Hussein Obama Down 4 Points-- McCain Gains In Battleground States
NO BOUNCE FOR BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA--
Despite the wall to wall media coverage Barack Hussein Obama dropped 4 points in the latest national poll released today.
FOX News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,390301,00.html) reported:

The significant news coverage Barack Hussein Obama is receiving on his foreign trip has not translated into a bounce in his numbers, a just-released FOX News poll shows. Obama now holds the slimmest possible edge over John McCain, leading by just 41 percent - 40 percent in a head-to-head contest. In fact, Obama’s support is down slightly from his 45 percent - 41 percent advantage last month.Meanwhile... John McCain has made it close in 4 battleground states.
The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/07/24/ST2008072401398.html) reported:

Republican John McCain has quickly closed the gap between himself and Democratic rival Sen. Barack Hussein Obama in several key battleground states even as the Arizona senator struggles to break through the wall-to-wall coverage of Obama's trip to Europe and the Middle East this week.

McCain and Obama are in a statistical dead heat in Colorado, Michigan and Minnesota while the Illinois senator has a more comfortable double-digit edge in Wisconsin, according to polling conducted by Quinnipiac University for washingtonpost.com and the Wall Street Journal during the past week. Only in Colorado, however, does McCain hold a greater percentage of the vote share than Obama.
But, this couldn't be possible...
The socialists love him (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/07/obama-wows-berlin-obama-goes-after.html)in Berlin.

UPDATE: This news (http://www.macsmind.com/wordpress/2008/07/24/surprise-63-dont-believe-trip-makes-obama-more-fit-to-be-president/) also won't please the global citizen:

According to Rasumussen the poll also found that only 32% believe he will learn anything from his trip to Iraq, while 40% agree Barack Hussein Obama already has his mind made up on Iraq.

The poll also shows 74% of Republicans and 60% of democrats agree it is not right for a candidate to make political statements contrary to government policy while in a war zone.
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/

[oneway]

When straight men have man love it usually ends awfully.

[Binky]

Yeah, I know about that speech. It's as tho' he thinks he's running for president of the world. He should be talking to us, we, the people, since we are the ones voting. It's pointless to pander to them since they have no control over whether or not he gets elected. What a bonehead!

[SeedyROM]

Reagan gave his speech at the same location on June 12, 1987 as President.
Today Obama panders the world in an effort to sucker in more votes in a country that has nothing to do with the election. His speech was meaningful for what it is worth, but it does zero for his election unless you think the Germans are voting the election. The trip was a waste of his supporters money.........no one can argue he picked up voter support going to Germany!

McCain one upped BO by going to a German restaurant in the USA, where American voters dine, where American voters want to see a candidate working his election.

[bairdi]

Reagan gave his speech at the same location on June 12, 1987 as President.
Today Obama panders the world in an effort to sucker in more votes in a country that has nothing to do with the election. His speech was meaningful for what it is worth, but it does zero for his election unless you think the Germans are voting the election. The trip was a waste of his supporters money.........no one can argue he picked up voter support going to Germany!

McCain one upped BO by going to a German restaurant in the USA, where American voters dine, where American voters want to see a candidate working his election.
My guess would be that a hell of a lot more Americans saw and appreciated Obama's speech than that of McCain.

[SeedyROM]

My guess would be that a hell of a lot more Americans saw and appreciated Obama's speech than that of McCain.

True maybe they appreciated his speech, but will they appreciate the fact that it meant nothing towards US politics since Obama is not the President and all others who spoke there were elected officials....big difference...bigger difference in the value of the speech.

I wonder how many realize Obama is still required to act like a Senator and do the job he was elected to do. He should avoid abusing campaign funds for neutral speeches that do no benefit anyone in the USA. I guess a free vacation is okay at the voters expense and the taxpayers! The Secret Service agents and services provided is not cheap.

McCain would not pander like a rock star spooning for glamour because he has more honor and respect for the people than Obama........a man riddled with wearing a flag pin on his suit.

[Independent Harry]

True maybe they appreciated his speech, but will they appreciate the fact that it meant nothing towards US politics since Obama is not the President and all others who spoke there were elected officials....big difference...bigger difference in the value of the speech.

I wonder how many realize Obama is still required to act like a Senator and do the job he was elected to do. And he to avoid abusing campaign funds for neutral speeches that do no benefit anyone in the USA. I guess a free vacation is okay at the voters expense and the taxpayers! The Secret Service agents and services provided is not cheap.

McCain would not pander like a rock star spooning for glamour because he has more honor and respect for the people than Obama........a man riddled with wearing a flag pin on his suit.

I feel like regardless it was a positive step towards repairing the image of the US throughout the rest of the world.

[SeedyROM]

I feel like regardless it was a positive step towards repairing the image of the US throughout the rest of the world.

I agree it helped with the perception of image. If elected it will help even more. I see a lot of the Clinton style of pandering on an even grander scale with Obama. He's saying things that he'll never be able to change in 4 years and people buy into the dream. Its okay to dream but if he loses the dream of change is still going to be there with McCain.

[Independent Harry]

I agree it helped with the perception of image. If elected it will help even more. I see a lot of the Clinton style of pandering on an even grander scale with Obama. He's saying things that he'll never be able to change in 4 years and people buy into the dream. Its okay to dream but if he loses the dream of change is still going to be there with McCain.

Change with McCain? McCain is 4 more years of the same policies. Continuing the same things that got us into this mess in the first place.

[Hog Trash]

Let's consider this?!......Germany love's Obama.....Yes, the same Germany that doesn't like America and hasn't since even before Bush???

Hmmm?......Doesn't it seem a little strange to anybody else but me that people from all over the world who hate America, seem to love Barrack Hussein Obama???

Obama is the stranger with candy, trying to lure you into his car, that your mommy and daddy warned you about when you were a child.

He's friendly and smiling and saying all the things you want to hear while he waves his big bag of delicious candy around in front of your eyes. Please, be smart, don't get in his car.

Do Americans no longer practice common sense? I hope Americans wise up before election day rolls around.

[bairdi]

Let's consider this?!......Germany love's Obama.....Yes, the same Germany that doesn't like America and hasn't since even before Bush???

Hmmm?......Doesn't it seem a little strange to anybody else but me that people from all over the world who hate America, seem to love Barrack Hussein Obama???

Obama is the stranger with candy, trying to lure you into his car, that your mommy and daddy warned you about when you were a child.

He's friendly and smiling and saying all the things you want to hear while he waves his big bag of delicious candy around in front of your eyes. Please, be smart, don't get in his car.

Do Americans no longer practice common sense? I hope Americans wise up before election day rolls around.
I tend to see Obama as a man with a flashlight at the end of a very dark tunnel. Unfortunately, some of us have been so blinded by the darkness that we cannot see the light no matter how hard we stare.

[SeedyROM]

Change with McCain? McCain is 4 more years of the same policies. Continuing the same things that got us into this mess in the first place.

Doubtful indeed! McCain has crossed over to support Dem Bill's many times, so many that neocons were still against him even after Romney dropped out. Rush "da pillpopping" Windbag still can't get over it! That's a good sign. McCain policy is different than Bush. I may consider Obama but I see thru all the phoney crap. Based on perception alone Obama will carry the election because people want change.

McCain is far more balanced and presidental looking because he isn't allowing his speech writers to write nonsense speeches designed to bait and pander the people, candidates should never delve into dark areas. Notice how often Obama looks down to read his notes or to the telepromter, his speech writers are making him look foolish and quite arrogant at times. That "Uncle Tom" paradox needs to fade away, we don't need lectures from the man in the oval office. We'll be the ones to lecture him on what we want.

He's not a peace president like some think he is, Obama plans to finish Afganistan and continue troops in Iraq and he may order troops into Iran or Pakistan.

How is he going to look to Germany and world when he continues past policies of his predecesor?

[bairdi]

Doubtful indeed! McCain has crossed over to support Dem Bill's many times, so many that neocons were still against him even after Romney dropped out. Rush "da pillpopping" Windbag still can't get over it! That's a good sign. McCain policy is different than Bush. I may consider Obama but I see thru all the phoney crap. Based on perception alone Obama will carry the election because people want change.

McCain is far more balanced and presidental looking because he isn't allowing his speech writers to write nonsense speeches designed to bait and pander the people, candidates should never delve into dark areas. Notice how often Obama looks down to read his notes or to the telepromter, his speech writers are making him look foolish and quite arrogant at times. That "Uncle Tom" paradox needs to fade away, we don't need lectures from the man in the oval office. We'll be the ones to lecture him on what we want.

He's not a peace president like some think he is, Obama plans to finish Afganistan and continue troops in Iraq and he may order troops into Iran or Pakistan.

How is he going to look to Germany and world when he continues past policies of his predecesor?
John McCain is not the same man that ran in 2000. I believe that guy was a decent enough candidate, but the current candidate has flip flopped and changed positions so many times to pander to the extreme wing of the party that it is difficult for anyone to understand just what he believes in anymore. Also, he is surrounding himself with the same people who directed Bush's failed economic and foreign policies.

I also think you are wrong in your observation of Obama. The reason for his notes and pauses, imho, is that the right wing press and conservative bloggers scan every word he speaks in order to issue forth yet another propaganda piece the moment he misstates or slips up on any utterance.

[SeedyROM]

John McCain is not the same man that ran in 2000. I believe that guy was a decent enough candidate, but the current candidate has flip flopped and changed positions so many times to pander to the extreme wing of the party that it is difficult for anyone to understand just what he believes in anymore. Also, he is surrounding himself with the same people who directed Bush's failed economic and foreign policies.

I also think you are wrong in your observation of Obama. The reason for his notes and pauses, imho, is that the right wing press and conservative bloggers scan every word he speaks in order to issue forth yet another propaganda piece the moment he misstates or slips up on any utterance.

McCain is adjusting his policies to todays environment, times have changed, the USA is not the same country since 9/11. I agree he is flip flopping as is Obama, they both have flipped on issues, a known fact many pretend never happened. Some of McCain's political advisors are from the Bush camp, he needs to identifiy with people who have connections in the govt. that will benefit his election. Not a reflection of continuing the Bush agenda. Nor has McCain offered those campaign advisors a job beyond the election thus far.

No, I'm not speaking of Obama's opinion from bloggers or the the right wing. I'm speaking of his talking down to people, zany speech in San Franciso & other cities and his disdain of blue collar workers, his disdain of war, yet he also speaks of war in two countries. Pakistan is not a problem when compared to Iran.

What I'm also speaking of is his pandering into dark areas that 99% of politicians, campaign advisors would avoid altogether. This guy is going too far. He's the one who is hard to follow maybe its because I live a normal life and I have no affiliation with known American Terrorists, aka Domestic Terrorists!

[oneway]

bairdi, your man man crush is getting sloppy! man with a light at the end of your dark tunnel. Now we know men have only one dark tunnel and barry is shining a light at the end of yours? what a provacative and telling analogy, mr. light in the loafers! You are the most brain dead sicofant I have ever seen.

[Hog Trash]

I tend to see Obama as a man with a flashlight at the end of a very dark tunnel. Unfortunately, some of us have been so blinded by the darkness that we cannot see the light no matter how hard we stare.

This is because you are a programmed loyal raptured sheep, and that light you see is your Savior who's come to take you to the promise land that he has painted so beautifuly for you, but it is an illusion.

I, on the other hand, am standing in the light and see clearly, but ahead I see a dark tunnel approaching fast, filled with a future of unimaginable suffering for Americans and other Democracies around the world.

Standing there at the entrance to the black hole is Barrack Obama, smiling and motioning for us to come on in.

[bairdi]

This is because you are a programmed loyal raptured sheep, and that light you see is your Savior who's come to take you to the promise land that he has painted so beautifuly for you, but it is an illusion.

I, on the other hand, am standing in the light and see clearly, but ahead I see a dark tunnel approaching fast, filled with a future of unimaginable suffering for Americans and other Democracies around the world.

Standing there at the entrance to the black hole is Barrack Obama, smiling and motioning for us to come on in.
I am not programmed. I am not a loyal sheep. I am not raptured. I support Obama because, with the process we as Americans use to choose a leader, he is the best choice. To imagine that you are standing in light after having come through one of the darkest eight year periods since the depression is in itself, a sign of severe mental disturbance.

If anyone has deluded himself into thinking that he is taking people to the promised land, it is you my friend. Reality may suck at the moment but I chose that over the fantasies to which you subject yourself.

[oneway]

Hog trash, I am so sorry. I am on double secret probation by Bill & Mobey.

One more crack about barrack obama and I will be banned. I am going to agree with everything seedy or moby or IH says.

I mean what is life if I cannot post on DC Junkies. I mean I am changing today. I now see Bairdis light. Barrack is nice and polite and non threatening.

Today i will model myself after MR. Obama.

Thanks Bill for the wake up call. I believe in change! I do believe!

[Hog Trash]

I am not programmed. I am not a loyal sheep. I am not raptured. I support Obama because, with the process we as Americans use to choose a leader, he is the best choice. To imagine that you are standing in light after having come through one of the darkest eight year periods since the depression is in itself, a sign of severe mental disturbance.

If anyone has deluded himself into thinking that he is taking people to the promised land, it is you my friend. Reality may suck at the moment but I chose that over the fantasies to which you subject yourself.

No one could support Obama using the "process we as Americans use to choose a leader", considering his lack of experience and credibility and his criminal and shady friends and associates.

That is unless you're an idiot.

You exhibit all the symptoms of "loyal raptured sheep syndrome" right down to the denial.

I share your opinion that Bush has been a failure as President but "darkest 8 years since the depression" is a bit overboard don't you think? You're coming across as a quite a drama queen bairdi.

[bairdi]

No one could support Obama using the "process we as Americans use to choose a leader", considering his lack of experiance and credibility and his criminal and shady friends and associates.

That is unless you're an idiot.

You exhibit all the symptoms of "loyal raptured sheep syndrome" right down to the denial.

I share your opinion that Bush has been a failure as President but "darkest 8 years since the depression" is a bit overboard don't you think? You're coming across as a quite a drama queen bairdi.
I must have missed the part where Obama received less votes than Hillary and was appointed the nominee.

[bairdi]

bairdi, your man man crush is getting sloppy! man with a light at the end of your dark tunnel. Now we know men have only one dark tunnel and barry is shining a light at the end of yours? what a provacative and telling analogy, mr. light in the loafers! You are the most brain dead sicofant I have ever seen.
It is very telling in the way that your mind works. I'll tell you what. Why don't you just go fuck yourself! And by the way, it's sycophant moron.

[Hog Trash]

I must have missed the part where Obama received less votes than Hillary and was appointed the nominee.
I wouldn't worry about it......You didn't miss much.

[sancot123]

so nice obama made a hit in germany to bad he could not go give one of his so called famous speeches to the wounded solders there . hats of to obama for that it shows us what he really is a total jerk

[Smurf-Herder]

so nice obama made a hit in germany to bad he could not go give one of his so called famous speeches to the wounded solders there . hats of to obama for that it shows us what he really is a total jerk

If nothing else, Obama is an asshole.

He got his photo-op with troops in Kuwait and Iraq. but couldn't bring his campaign media entourage into the disabled war veteran's hospital. The Pentagon would only let him in as a Senator with a Senate Staffer and a military photo team. So he said fuck it, and went to the Gym at the Ritz Carlton instead.

[Hog Trash]

If nothing else, Obama is an asshole.

He got his photo-op with troops in Kuwait and Iraq. but couldn't bring his campaign media entourage into the disabled war veteran's hospital. The Pentagon would only let him in as a Senator with a Senate Staffer and a military photo team. So he said fuck it, and went to the Gym at the Ritz Carlton instead.

Obama is truly an arrogant asshole. The thought of him becoming Commander and Chief both scares and disgusts me to no limit.

[sancot123]

Obama is truly an arrogant asshole. The thought of him becoming Commander and Chief both scares and disgusts me to no limit.
I totally agree America has to wake up to what he will really do to the country not to mention what the result will be in the middle east

[Smurf-Herder]

I totally agree America has to wake up to what he will really do to the country not to mention what the result will be in the middle east

Israeli Intelligence believes Iran and Syria will go after them with Hezbollah, if Obama gets elected. Because they see him as non-committal; and want to test his resolve as soon as he gets in. I feel Russia will try to see what he's made of as well.

[sancot123]

Obama is truly an arrogant asshole. The thought of him becoming Commander and Chief both scares and disgusts me to no limit.
I think that all the media attention is going to be Obamas down fall it has gone to his head his ego is as big as texas now. People are sick of the love feast i no i am. I can not stand the news anymore. We need fair reporting or does the media think the Americas are going to fall for there crap much longer. Voters will and should bring McCains numbers up in all the states to show the media we are peeved right off at them. Also get that congress out of there all they are are a bunch of useless jerks

[SeedyROM]

Voters care more about the big show and the drama than the actual merits of a candidates political agenda. Talk policy, the majority get bored, they want to be sold on the story. Bush sold the fluff and promises twice.

[Hog Trash]

I think that all the media attention is going to be Obamas down fall it has gone to his head his ego is as big as texas now. People are sick of the love feast i no i am. I can not stand the news anymore. We need fair reporting or does the media think the Americas are going to fall for there crap much longer. Voters will and should bring McCains numbers up in all the states to show the media we are peeved right off at them. Also get that congress out of there all they are are a bunch of useless jerks

The Media see's the same artificial glow around Obama, that the loyal raptured sheep see. You're not going to see any fair common sense reporting coming from them any time soon.

And one more thing......Germans love Obama???......Arn't these the same people who fell down on their knee's and worshipped Adolf Hitler and proclaimed he was the one who was going to save Germany???

If I recall my history correctly their were people from many nations shouting praise to Hitler before the truth was realized.

[Smurf-Herder]

The Media see's the same artificial glow around Obama, that the loyal raptured sheep see. You're not going to see any fair common sense reporting coming from them any time soon.

And one more thing......Germans love Obama???......Arn't these the same people who fell down on their knee's and worshipped Adolf Hitler and proclaimed he was the one who was going to save Germany???

If I recall my history correctly their were people from many nations shouting praise to Hitler before the truth was realized.

Europe has a 2000 year history of looking to Emperors, Kings and the Cult of Personality. It comes naturally to them.

[Hog Trash]

Europe has a 2000 year history of looking to Emperors, Kings and the Cult of Personality. It comes naturally to them.

The "Cult of Personality" may not come naturally to Americans but it does seem to have come regardless.

We can only hope that an awakening to reality occurs before November or America's future could be in serious jeopardy.

I sense a bad storm on the horizen. It might be time to batten down the hatches for a while.

A cabin, high up in the Rocky Mountains, is starting to look very appealing right now.

[Smurf-Herder]

The "Cult of Personality" may not come naturally to Americans but it does seem to have come regardless.

We can only hope that an awakening to reality occurs before November or America's future could be in serious jeopardy.

I sense a bad storm on the horizen. It might be time to batten down the hatches for a while.

A cabin, high up in the Rocky Mountains, is starting to look very appealing right now.

I'm starting to think it could go either way; with all the negatives being talked about now.

If Obama loses, I'm sure with the way his ego has been built up, he'll remain in the public eye; continuing to build his credibility and following. Having learned from his mistakes this time, in his rush to the top of the pack.

With the greater than 50/50 chance of a war between Israel and Iran in the next two years and an assumed US involvement, McCain could be bashed as badly as Bush by the left, for not preventing it; and only end up serving one term. This would give Obama a more substantial chance to win in a landslide, in 2012. With all that we worry about him now being pushed to the side as "old news" by the MSM, having already been resolved; and not worthy of debate (even though it really wasn't - most people have short memories and accept what's only before them).

So we could be going through this all over again in three years, with our present concerns about him having less credibilty to most people, in light of what another three years could do to boost his popularity as a charismatic political figure.

Obama has started a movement for "change", that I can't see the media letting go of that easily.

[bairdi]

The "Cult of Personality" may not come naturally to Americans but it does seem to have come regardless.

We can only hope that an awakening to reality occurs before November or America's future could be in serious jeopardy.

I sense a bad storm on the horizen. It might be time to batten down the hatches for a while.

A cabin, high up in the Rocky Mountains, is starting to look very appealing right now.
An awakening to reality has been occurring for some time now. Unfortunately, you people continue to open your eyes to it.

[Binky]

The "Cult of Personality" may not come naturally to Americans but it does seem to have come regardless.

We can only hope that an awakening to reality occurs before November or America's future could be in serious jeopardy.

I sense a bad storm on the horizen. It might be time to batten down the hatches for a while.

A cabin, high up in the Rocky Mountains, is starting to look very appealing right now.


Batten down the hatches is what my family and I have been trying to do for some time now. My hubby and I have a place in northern Michigan, which is where I live while he works and lives down state. He comes home on weekends or whenever possible. We've discussed a plan on what he should do in case the shit hits the fan and he is stuck down there. If he's at work when he gets the word of anything funky going on, he is going to walk off the job, get in his vehicle, grab a few things from his place and head north asap. If the traffic on the expressway is bad, he is going to jump off and take side roads all the way here.

We've been trying to load up on anything we feel we may need, but it will be difficult to stock up on his meds. I've been gathering other meds that we may have to have, and food that will keep. I'm also planning on getting a large compressor to use if the power goes out, as our well pump runs off of electricity. (or else just hook up the hand pump we have) That way we'd still have hot water and electric, but no hot water with the hand pump. And I'm ordering more wood for the fireplace as well. If worst came to worst, we could always heat up water in our bonfire pit for cooking and bathing.

We live where there are a lot of woods and lakes. And if we had to we'd get out and hunt and fish. We have a ton of fishing tackle so that's not a problem.

And with things taking place as they have for awhile now, it would behoove everyone to batten down the hatches. Prepare for the worst! We don't know what's in store for us. But the signs have been there for sometime now and they aren't good. Pay attention and do whatever you have to do to get by.

[Smurf-Herder]

Batten down the hatches is what my family and I have been trying to do for some time now. My hubby and I have a place in northern Michigan, which is where I live while he works and lives down state. He comes home on weekends or whenever possible. We've discussed a plan on what he should do in case the shit hits the fan and he is stuck down there. If he's at work when he gets the word of anything funky going on, he is going to walk off the job, get in his vehicle, grab a few things from his place and head north asap. If the traffic on the expressway is bad, he is going to jump off and take side roads all the way here.

We've been trying to load up on anything we feel we may need, but it will be difficult to stock up on his meds. I've been gathering other meds that we may have to have, and food that will keep. I'm also planning on getting a large compressor to use if the power goes out, as our well pump runs off of electricity. (or else just hook up the hand pump we have) That way we'd still have hot water and electric, but no hot water with the hand pump. And I'm ordering more wood for the fireplace as well. If worst came to worst, we could always heat up water in our bonfire pit for cooking and bathing.

We live where there are a lot of woods and lakes. And if we had to we'd get out and hunt and fish. We have a ton of fishing tackle so that's not a problem.

And with things taking place as they have for awhile now, it would behoove everyone to batten down the hatches. Prepare for the worst! We don't know what's in store for us. But the signs have been there for sometime now and they aren't good. Pay attention and do whatever you have to do to get by.

Binky, you need to buy or fabricate a faraday cage and store a ham radio and backup laptop in it; with lots of batteries. To stay in touch with whomever else may still have communications; and store critical personal info. The most likely scenario would involve an EMP attack, with no warning; more than likely from the launch of a simple device, from the hold of a cargo freighter just off the coast.

There may never be any alert, or any evacuation panic. Just millions wondering why all the lights went out and nothing works.

Google "scud in a bucket".

[bairdi]

Batten down the hatches is what my family and I have been trying to do for some time now. My hubby and I have a place in northern Michigan, which is where I live while he works and lives down state. He comes home on weekends or whenever possible. We've discussed a plan on what he should do in case the shit hits the fan and he is stuck down there. If he's at work when he gets the word of anything funky going on, he is going to walk off the job, get in his vehicle, grab a few things from his place and head north asap. If the traffic on the expressway is bad, he is going to jump off and take side roads all the way here.

We've been trying to load up on anything we feel we may need, but it will be difficult to stock up on his meds. I've been gathering other meds that we may have to have, and food that will keep. I'm also planning on getting a large compressor to use if the power goes out, as our well pump runs off of electricity. (or else just hook up the hand pump we have) That way we'd still have hot water and electric, but no hot water with the hand pump. And I'm ordering more wood for the fireplace as well. If worst came to worst, we could always heat up water in our bonfire pit for cooking and bathing.

We live where there are a lot of woods and lakes. And if we had to we'd get out and hunt and fish. We have a ton of fishing tackle so that's not a problem.

And with things taking place as they have for awhile now, it would behoove everyone to batten down the hatches. Prepare for the worst! We don't know what's in store for us. But the signs have been there for sometime now and they aren't good. Pay attention and do whatever you have to do to get by.
I never thought I would agree with you on anything, but this is probably a workable plan.

If McCain should win without the Democrats getting a clear cut majority in both the House and Senate, it is going to get quite scary. With the continuation of Bush's failed economic policies and McCain's promised cuts in social programs, look for an even larger growing disparity in income between the rich and poor. As more and more people lose their jobs and houses look for “tent cities” to once again crop up across the country. Expect riots in Detroit, LA, Philadelphia and most major cities as poverty grows and frustration builds and watch for an increase in gangs who will eventually control sections of cities as the “thin blue line” gets stretched thinner and thinner.

There will be a backlash against immigrants. As more and more jobs leave the country through NAFTA, GATT and new agreements with South America, look for natural born Americans to turn against the 12 million illegals who were given amnesty by McCain. Violence will erupt and neighbor will turn against neighbor.

On the national scene, events will turn from bad to worse. Once McCain, under the direction of former Bush administration officials and PNAC members, launches another “preemptive” war against Iran all hell will break loose. Look for riots world wide denouncing the United States. Citizens in Europe, Asia and the Middle East will take to the streets, burning McCain in effigy and rioting against our country. Once Israel enters the fray, it's over. Look for nukes to be flying in that part of the world and millions upon millions dying in a senseless war. I can only imagine the look on Smurf's face when he comes to the realization that it was not the black man who talked of peace and unity, but actually a 70 year white guy who was the anti-Christ and who brought on John Hagee's perverted view of the Apocalypse.

On the positive side though, if McCain wins and the Democrats do capture a clear cut majority in both houses, then look for Washington gridlock to continue.

If Obama wins, then at least some sanity will return to this country. Either way, it does not hurt to be ready for whatever comes.

[Hog Trash]

If Obama wins, then at least some sanity will return to this country.

Do you think you could provide me with the winning numbers for the next Mega-Million Dollar Lottery drawing, Oh Great Enlightened One?......I'll split it with ya!

[Hog Trash]

Batten down the hatches is what my family and I have been trying to do for some time now. My hubby and I have a place in northern Michigan,

Michigan is an absolute beautiful state. I'm particularly fond of the northern part of the southern peninsula, Grayling, Traverse City. I loved it so much I returned to take a vacation their one summer in the Mackinaw area. What a great time in a beautiful place and so much to see and do. Even the casino was nice, even though I lost to much money. Michigan is easily in the top ten of the most beautiful states in the country.

[SeedyROM]

Europe has a 2000 year history of looking to Emperors, Kings and the Cult of Personality. It comes naturally to them.

LOL, they certainly praised Jacques Chirac. That mouth piece will not be missed. People in France ended up hating him after they realized the cult was not what they wanted.

[Cat slave]

Batten down the hatches is what my family and I have been trying to do for some time now. My hubby and I have a place in northern Michigan, which is where I live while he works and lives down state. He comes home on weekends or whenever possible. We've discussed a plan on what he should do in case the shit hits the fan and he is stuck down there. If he's at work when he gets the word of anything funky going on, he is going to walk off the job, get in his vehicle, grab a few things from his place and head north asap. If the traffic on the expressway is bad, he is going to jump off and take side roads all the way here.

We've been trying to load up on anything we feel we may need, but it will be difficult to stock up on his meds. I've been gathering other meds that we may have to have, and food that will keep. I'm also planning on getting a large compressor to use if the power goes out, as our well pump runs off of electricity. (or else just hook up the hand pump we have) That way we'd still have hot water and electric, but no hot water with the hand pump. And I'm ordering more wood for the fireplace as well. If worst came to worst, we could always heat up water in our bonfire pit for cooking and bathing.

We live where there are a lot of woods and lakes. And if we had to we'd get out and hunt and fish. We have a ton of fishing tackle so that's not a problem.

And with things taking place as they have for awhile now, it would behoove everyone to batten down the hatches. Prepare for the worst! We don't know what's in store for us. But the signs have been there for sometime now and they aren't good. Pay attention and do whatever you have to do to get by.

Youre exactly right Binky. We are very rural here with a very tight
community where everyone looks out for everyone else. When the ****
hits the fan the cities will be in total chaos and when all the food and
water has been looted they will start spreading out to greener pastures.
Fortunately we are on a dead end road, one way in and only one way
out. It can be easily guarded....and will be!!!!! We are in the best of
all places I think. Woods, lake, river and armed neighbors....works for me.
I intend to get armed and accurate very soon.

[Binky]

Michigan is an absolute beautiful state. I'm particularly fond of the northern part of the southern peninsula, Grayling, Traverse City. I loved it so much I returned to take a vacation their one summer in the Mackinaw area. What a great time in a beautiful place and so much to see and do. Even the casino was nice, even though I lost to much money. Michigan is easily in the top ten of the most beautiful states in the country.

Thanks Hog Trash. That's the way I've always felt about my state. There has to be something said for the millions of people that arrive whenever they can for a vacation in a paradise of sorts. It has it's problems, for sure. Just like any state. But we have such gorgeous trees, lakes, streams, rivers, wildlike etc. that traffic high tails to check out the area and surrounding areas about 3/4 of the year. Which happens to make the traffic much worse in towns. But it's a great place to raise a family in and to spend a vacation. There are sand dunes as well for those that love to ride dune buggies.

Anyway, if worse came to worse, where our home is, we can look down the highway for miles so we'd just build a barricade and not let anyone cross thru. We are armed as well and we'd post lookouts for anyone who was trying to enter our town from our end and cause trouble.

It sounds like Mad Max of sorts and a bit kooky, I'm sure. But these are kookie times we live in and are getting kookier everyday.

Hopefully, our country will be able to turn around in a positive direction and straighten out the mess we seem to have gotten into. Never thought I'd ever have to come off sounding like a fruit cake and making plans such as these, but the times are warranting it. And you gotta do what you gotta do!

[Binky]

Youre exactly right Binky. We are very rural here with a very tight
community where everyone looks out for everyone else. When the ****
hits the fan the cities will be in total chaos and when all the food and
water has been looted they will start spreading out to greener pastures.
Fortunately we are on a dead end road, one way in and only one way
out. It can be easily guarded....and will be!!!!! We are in the best of
all places I think. Woods, lake, river and armed neighbors....works for me.
I intend to get armed and accurate very soon.


Yep, get yourself armed asap. Don't hesitate on this matter. And get something that will do some good and shoot at a distance. Wouldn't hurt to have a scope on a rifle either.

Load up on candles, matches, sea rations etc. Check out an army, navy store to see what you can find.

If you live in a seasonal climate where winters can get brutal, then purchase more blankets.

I've only shot a weapon twice. I can't remember what the first one was, but it was a huge gun that would've done some damage to someone and not a pea shooter. The second one was an AK47 and it was an awesome feeling to hold that much power in ones hands. And it's been a long while since I shot a weapon so I'll have to bone up on using one. Since my hubby was a sharp shooter at one time, I don't think I'll have trouble catching onto to it.

Man, this sounds kookie talking like this. But this whole mess has us all thinking strange things anymore.

[Binky]

I never thought I would agree with you on anything, but this is probably a workable plan.

If McCain should win without the Democrats getting a clear cut majority in both the House and Senate, it is going to get quite scary. With the continuation of Bush's failed economic policies and McCain's promised cuts in social programs, look for an even larger growing disparity in income between the rich and poor. As more and more people lose their jobs and houses look for “tent cities” to once again crop up across the country. Expect riots in Detroit, LA, Philadelphia and most major cities as poverty grows and frustration builds and watch for an increase in gangs who will eventually control sections of cities as the “thin blue line” gets stretched thinner and thinner.

There will be a backlash against immigrants. As more and more jobs leave the country through NAFTA, GATT and new agreements with South America, look for natural born Americans to turn against the 12 million illegals who were given amnesty by McCain. Violence will erupt and neighbor will turn against neighbor.

On the national scene, events will turn from bad to worse. Once McCain, under the direction of former Bush administration officials and PNAC members, launches another “preemptive” war against Iran all hell will break loose. Look for riots world wide denouncing the United States. Citizens in Europe, Asia and the Middle East will take to the streets, burning McCain in effigy and rioting against our country. Once Israel enters the fray, it's over. Look for nukes to be flying in that part of the world and millions upon millions dying in a senseless war. I can only imagine the look on Smurf's face when he comes to the realization that it was not the black man who talked of peace and unity, but actually a 70 year white guy who was the anti-Christ and who brought on John Hagee's perverted view of the Apocalypse.

On the positive side though, if McCain wins and the Democrats do capture a clear cut majority in both houses, then look for Washington gridlock to continue.

If Obama wins, then at least some sanity will return to this country. Either way, it does not hurt to be ready for whatever comes.

Well, I'm happy to learn that we finally agree on something anyway. I hope some sanity will return to this country if Obama is elected. Who knows? With the times we are living in, I've begun to wonder if we're going to be able to survive this mess with either one of them as our president.

It just seems to me that everything is going whacky. It's as tho' the earth is "off kilter." Does that sound kookie to you? To me does, a bit, but I can't help but wonder anyway. However, something is going on. We've been on a downhill run for a number of years now and it doesn't look as tho' it's going to get any better before it gets worse. Something to ponder anyway.

[Dale escondido]

Youre exactly right Binky. We are very rural here with a very tight
community where everyone looks out for everyone else. When the ****
hits the fan the cities will be in total chaos and when all the food and
water has been looted they will start spreading out to greener pastures.
Fortunately we are on a dead end road, one way in and only one way
out. It can be easily guarded....and will be!!!!! We are in the best of
all places I think. Woods, lake, river and armed neighbors....works for me.
I intend to get armed and accurate very soon.

This is a likely senerio if Obama is not elected.
We will be seen as a nation of bigots. Radical elements will rise up and go into a fever pitch.
I have to give the man credit as he is trying to keep focus off race but extremist see only race. Just the fact that 92% of blacks vote for him shows that is the focus.

[Smurf-Herder]

This is a likely senerio if Obama is not elected.
We will be seen as a nation of bigots. Radical elements will rise up and go into a fever pitch.
I have to give the man credit as he is trying to keep focus off race but extremist see only race. Just the fact that 92% of blacks vote for him shows that is the focus.

Of course, if Obama does get elected, people are basically voting for a symbol; without considering that this man will be in charge of decision-making for the US. He could totally unravel everything domestically and internationally, because of his inexperience, naiveté and whatever agenda he really has, which has been pretty ambiguous throughout the campain.

........ we're "going off the rails on a crazy train."

[bairdi]

Of course, if Obama does get elected, people are basically voting for a symbol; without considering that this man will be in charge of decision-making for the US. He could totally unravel everything domestically and internationally, because of his inexperience, naiveté and whatever agenda he really has, which has been pretty ambiguous throughout the campain.

........ we're "going off the rails on a crazy train."
Unravel record numbers of home foreclosures, unravel a plunging stock market, unravel an illegal war, unravel a crumbling infrastructure, unravel continuing employment layoffs, unravel the failed policies of the Bush administration? Sounds pretty damn good to me.

[Smurf-Herder]

Unravel record numbers of home foreclosures, unravel a plunging stock market, unravel an illegal war, unravel a crumbling infrastructure, unravel continuing employment layoffs, unravel the failed policies of the Bush administration? Sounds pretty damn good to me.

How about unravelling our ability to deter present and wouldbe enemies, international alliances, forcing industry overseas to avoid higher taxes.

BTW, did you know he supports ending secret ballots in Union votes in the workplace? That totally undermines the concept of not "being intimidated" into joining a union. And Unions are a big special interest group with a lot of political pull, whose leadership usually go against their rank & file views.

Not to mention his concept of a "National Civilian Security Force". And making it his prime goal as President to "educate" the population on being "better citizens". Who decides what the details of all that means?

[Dale escondido]

Unravel record numbers of home foreclosures, unravel a plunging stock market, unravel an illegal war, unravel a crumbling infrastructure, unravel continuing employment layoffs, unravel the failed policies of the Bush administration? Sounds pretty damn good to me.

Bush has created an enviromnent where an inexperienced senator looks pretty good.
It is scary that we are rolling the dice wit this guy. I do wish he had a better history.
I did believe our system of government created limits on insanity running amuck, but Bush threw that theory out in my mind.
For that reason I wish Obama hadnt spent so much time aligning himself quite so far to the left.

[Smurf-Herder]

Bush has created an enviromnent where an inexperienced senator looks pretty good.
It is scary that we are rolling the dice wit this guy. I do wish he had a better history.
I did believe our system of government created limits on insanity running amuck, but Bush threw that theory out in my mind.
For that reason I wish Obama hadnt spent so much time aligning himself quite so far to the left.

That's why Obama's past affiliations and his view of things are so critical. He didn't spend time aligning himself with the far left. He came from the far left, with the mindset he embraced for 20 years under the mentorship of Wright.

"God Damn America!" :oldman:

[Dale escondido]

That's why Obama's past affiliations and his view of things are so critical. He didn't spend time aligning himself with the far left. He came from the far left, with the mindset he embraced for 20 years under the mentorship of Wright.

"God Damn America!" :oldman:

I agree and it sucks, but I sure like his posistion on Pakistan.
Doubt he would do anything, just pandering to conservatives.
I did listen to a couple of complete sermons of Wrights. Hard to hear these and believe this is an American GI.
Obama either doesnt pay attention in church or agrees with this crap.

[Smurf-Herder]

I agree and it sucks, but I sure like his posistion on Pakistan.
Doubt he would do anything, just pandering to conservatives.
I did listen to a couple of complete sermons of Wrights. Hard to hear these and believe this is an American GI.
Obama either doesnt pay attention in church or agrees with this crap.

I think his position on Pakistan is now a general consensus. Pakistan is key and has to be dealt with. It's just a question of how far we can go without direct military intervention - which would make Iraq and Afghanistan look like a picnic. In Pakistan we're dealing with potentially 3 million enemy combatants in Waziristan and a country that insists we don't intervene, who has a larger standing modern Army, than the US could deploy to the area.

If Obama was listening to Wright's tapes in college and Wright is the one who inspired him to get into politics, I can't see how Obama doesn't agree with his views. It's no different than his saying whatever he has to on other issues to get elected, when he denies having Wright's views.

[Dale escondido]

I think his position on Pakistan is now a general consensus. Pakistan is key and has to be dealt with. It's just a question of how far we can go without direct military intervention - which would make Iraq and Afghanistan look like a picnic. In Pakistan we're dealing with potentially 3 million enemy combatants in Waziristan and a country that insists we don't intervene, who has a larger standing modern Army, than the US could deploy to the area.

If Obama was listening to Wright's tapes in college and Wright is the one who inspired him to get into politics, I can't see how Obama doesn't agree with his views. It's no different than his saying whatever he has to on other issues to get elected, when he denies having Wright's views.

Dont be so sure this is so bad. A well defined enemy is much more defeatable than ghosts.
India is definitly not going to back down to this and I believe although I havent seen anything in writing China has to be rethinking their posistion in this terror arena.

[Smurf-Herder]

Dont be so sure this is so bad. A well defined enemy is much more defeatable than ghosts.
India is definitly not going to back down to this and I believe although I havent seen anything in writing China has to be rethinking their posistion in this terror arena.

One thing you have to remember, Pakistan is a close ally of China, against India. China had brief border war with India in 1962; and I'm not up to date on what their relations are like presently.

If you search on the internet, there is a story going around that China has made an agreement with Al-Qaeda for no attacks during the Olympics. There is another article written by Bill Gertz that China trained Taliban before 911 - but the original article no longer exists through the link I found. We could be in the same situation as Pakistan with China - factions within their governments supporting the very people who they claim to be enemies with.

Afterall, it was a Pakistani scientist that gave the nuclear technology to Iran and North Korea, that they obtained from China; who stole it from the US in the 1990s.

[Dale escondido]

If you look at the council on foreign relations ; Pakistan-China relationship then China-India it becomes apparent that 1962 ties are not so strong now.
China gains somewhat from Pakistans friendship in security areas but is trying to become more economically tied to India. They will be conducting joint naval exercizes soon.
I see China as being put to a test, ally with terror for some short term security or ally yourself with the world economy that they have now tasted and are obviously enjoying.
I would be willing to negotiate with China and ask them to remove radical elements from Pakistan if that would be less offensive to Pakistan.
And before you yell at me I know that wont happen,I just threw it out there to make a point. They have to choose soon.

[Smurf-Herder]

If you look at the council on foreign relations ; Pakistan-China relationship then China-India it becomes apparent that 1962 ties are not so strong now.
China gains somewhat from Pakistans friendship in security areas but is trying to become more economically tied to India. They will be conducting joint naval exercizes soon.
I see China as being put to a test, ally with terror for some short term security or ally yourself with the world economy that they have now tasted and are obviously enjoying.
I would be willing to negotiate with China and ask them to remove radical elements from Pakistan if that would be less offensive to Pakistan.
And before you yell at me I know that wont happen,I just threw it out there to make a point. They have to choose soon.

Nearly anything is possible nowadays.

But I don't know if China has had enough of their own terrorist activity to consider it enough of a problem, to directly risk Islamic vengence for sticking their neck out. When they could at this point, just sit back and watch us take the heat and waste our resources doing it. Most Chinese generals view the US as their ultimate rival; and wouldn't mind seeing us get taken down a few more pegs.

Afterall, IMO, that's what propping up North Korea and helping Iran was all about; in the long-term grand scheme of things.

Dale, read my new thread on Paskistan and let me know what you think. It's extremely serious, yet nobody seems to bother to read it or respond:

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showthread.php?t=5493

[Smurf-Herder]

If you look at the council on foreign relations ; Pakistan-China relationship then China-India it becomes apparent that 1962 ties are not so strong now.
China gains somewhat from Pakistans friendship in security areas but is trying to become more economically tied to India. They will be conducting joint naval exercizes soon.
I see China as being put to a test, ally with terror for some short term security or ally yourself with the world economy that they have now tasted and are obviously enjoying.
I would be willing to negotiate with China and ask them to remove radical elements from Pakistan if that would be less offensive to Pakistan.
And before you yell at me I know that wont happen,I just threw it out there to make a point. They have to choose soon.

I just found something off the radar concerning the China-India thing:

Chinese incursions along the border with India are up

Beijing (AsiaNews/Agencies) – Chinese incursions along the 4,057-km-long Sino-Indian border have increased in 2008. New Delhi has responded by re-building an airfield at 4,960 metres (16,200 feet) close to the border. The control of that part of Tibet under Indian rule but claimed by mainland China is at stake.

Borders between the two nations have not been demarcated on maps or delineated on the ground after the border war of 1962 which India lost. New Delhi claims some 38,000 sq km of territory in Chinese-held Aksai Chin in the north-eastern corner of Jammu and Kashmir as well as 5,180 sq km of land in Kashmir ceded to China by Pakistan in 1963. For its part, China lays claim to around 90,000 sq km of territory in India's northeast, roughly approximating the India state of Arunachal Pradesh. China refers to it as "southern Tibet".

In mid-June both sides said that their territorial dispute was resolved but in the first six months of the year China has carried out over 65 incursions into the Indian state of Sikkim.

Sikkim itself is not at stake but many believe that China is putting pressure on India here in order to get Arunachal Pradesh, especially Tawang.

Nestled in the eastern Himalayas at an altitude of 3,400 meters, Tawang is a critical corridor between Lhasa and the Brahmaputra Valley. It would give China the means to control the entire area.

There is also Tawang's link with Tibetan Buddhism and its religious and emotional significance for Tibetans. It is home to the second most important Tibetan monastery after the Potala Palace in Lhasa, a virtual treasure trove of Tibetan Buddhist religion and culture compared to the cultural genocide currently underway in Tibet. The area is also fertile and rich in minerals

Scholars have argued that Tawang is central to Beijing's control over Tibet and would buttress Beijing’s religious and cultural legitimacy claim that Tibet is an integral part of China. And China's occupation of Aksai Chin has consolidated its military control over Tibet by securing an all-weather, year-round overland access to Tibet.

For this same reason Tibetans and the Dalai Lama insist that Tawang and Arunachal Pradesh are part of India, whilst China wants to annex it to the rest of Tibet as “Chinese territory”.

However New Delhi cannot afford to give in and surrender millions of people who have always been Indian. Thus it is investing billions of dollars into improving communication and transportation links with the rest of the country, reinforcing its military presence in the area, reopening the Daulat Beg Oldi airfield in Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir at 4,960 meters, ideal for dropping or picking up troops and supplies, located a mere eight kilometres from the Sino-Indian Line of Actual Control, and more importantly overlooking the strategic Karakoram Highway that links China and Pakistan.

China can be expected to be quiet before the Games, but one cannot exclude that it might up the ante after they are over, warned Shantonu Choudhry, a former vice chief of army staff, especially “if India's political center is perceived as weak and pusillanimous.”

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=12856&size=A

[Dale escondido]

Nearly anything is possible nowadays.

But I don't know if China has had enough of their own terrorist activity to consider it enough of a problem, to directly risk Islamic vengence for sticking their neck out. When they could at this point, just sit back and watch us take the heat and waste our resources doing it. Most Chinese generals view the US as their ultimate rival; and wouldn't mind seeing us get taken down a few more pegs.

Afterall, IMO, that's what propping up North Korea and helping Iran was all about; in the long-term grand scheme of things.

Dale, read my new thread on Paskistan and let me know what you think. It's extremely serious, yet nobody seems to bother to read it or respond:

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showthread.php?t=5493

I did read it. I read most of your posts. I appreciate all the research that goes into your opinions.
I appreciate the danger here. But I also see a society moving from a posistion of non existence to affluence.
As China move into a new ism crossing from socialism to capitalism their posistion becomes fragile. The hardliners are tasting greed and trying to hold onto the fears and predjustice of their past.

[Dale escondido]

I just found something off the radar concerning the China-India thing:

Chinese incursions along the border with India are up

Beijing (AsiaNews/Agencies) – Chinese incursions along the 4,057-km-long Sino-Indian border have increased in 2008. New Delhi has responded by re-building an airfield at 4,960 metres (16,200 feet) close to the border. The control of that part of Tibet under Indian rule but claimed by mainland China is at stake.

Borders between the two nations have not been demarcated on maps or delineated on the ground after the border war of 1962 which India lost. New Delhi claims some 38,000 sq km of territory in Chinese-held Aksai Chin in the north-eastern corner of Jammu and Kashmir as well as 5,180 sq km of land in Kashmir ceded to China by Pakistan in 1963. For its part, China lays claim to around 90,000 sq km of territory in India's northeast, roughly approximating the India state of Arunachal Pradesh. China refers to it as "southern Tibet".

In mid-June both sides said that their territorial dispute was resolved but in the first six months of the year China has carried out over 65 incursions into the Indian state of Sikkim.

Sikkim itself is not at stake but many believe that China is putting pressure on India here in order to get Arunachal Pradesh, especially Tawang.

Nestled in the eastern Himalayas at an altitude of 3,400 meters, Tawang is a critical corridor between Lhasa and the Brahmaputra Valley. It would give China the means to control the entire area.

There is also Tawang's link with Tibetan Buddhism and its religious and emotional significance for Tibetans. It is home to the second most important Tibetan monastery after the Potala Palace in Lhasa, a virtual treasure trove of Tibetan Buddhist religion and culture compared to the cultural genocide currently underway in Tibet. The area is also fertile and rich in minerals

Scholars have argued that Tawang is central to Beijing's control over Tibet and would buttress Beijing’s religious and cultural legitimacy claim that Tibet is an integral part of China. And China's occupation of Aksai Chin has consolidated its military control over Tibet by securing an all-weather, year-round overland access to Tibet.

For this same reason Tibetans and the Dalai Lama insist that Tawang and Arunachal Pradesh are part of India, whilst China wants to annex it to the rest of Tibet as “Chinese territory”.

However New Delhi cannot afford to give in and surrender millions of people who have always been Indian. Thus it is investing billions of dollars into improving communication and transportation links with the rest of the country, reinforcing its military presence in the area, reopening the Daulat Beg Oldi airfield in Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir at 4,960 meters, ideal for dropping or picking up troops and supplies, located a mere eight kilometres from the Sino-Indian Line of Actual Control, and more importantly overlooking the strategic Karakoram Highway that links China and Pakistan.

China can be expected to be quiet before the Games, but one cannot exclude that it might up the ante after they are over, warned Shantonu Choudhry, a former vice chief of army staff, especially “if India's political center is perceived as weak and pusillanimous.”

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=12856&size=A

These border issues are long in the tooth and redefining borders is always dangerous issues.
They have to move forward. Trade booming, economies expanding and recognition as beneficial contributers in the world has got to be changing their focus. People are stubborn and the old hardliners are probably not sure of how to handle their people exspecting leadership from them, not decisions forced on them.

[SeedyROM]

Youre exactly right Binky. We are very rural here with a very tight
community where everyone looks out for everyone else. When the ****
hits the fan the cities will be in total chaos and when all the food and
water has been looted they will start spreading out to greener pastures.
Fortunately we are on a dead end road, one way in and only one way
out. It can be easily guarded....and will be!!!!! We are in the best of
all places I think. Woods, lake, river and armed neighbors....works for me.
I intend to get armed and accurate very soon.

We may need to arm ourselves after Super Tuesday. What if Obama loses and Rodney King style riots break out all over the country? I've thought about this a couple of times so I'm prepared. In fact, I plan to stay home after 2pm just in case people in the states go crazy as election results come in. This election is going to be close just like the Bush/Gore election. Things may get crazy afterwards.

[Dale escondido]

We may need to arm ourselves after Super Tuesday. What if Obama loses and Rodney King style riots break out all over the country? I've thought about this a couple of times so I'm prepared. In fact, I plan to stay home after 2pm just in case people in the states go crazy as election results come in. This election is going to be close just like the Bush/Gore election. Things may get crazy afterwards.

Absolutly going to happen if he loses.
Not sure how much though.
Hope the national guard has enough here to handle this.
I drove thru Watt two days after the roits on my motorcycle.
103 st. looked like it had been carpet bombed.

[Smurf-Herder]

Absolutly going to happen if he loses.
Not sure how much though.
Hope the national guard has enough here to handle this.
I drove thru Watt two days after the roits on my motorcycle.
103 st. looked like it had been carpet bombed.


I think most average black people are just like most average white people - they are moderates who have common sense. Where we will see problems are in the cities, where people have been used by political groups and whipped up into a frenzy. And street gangs could take advantage.

It all comes down to people like Jackson, Sharpton and the Code Pink - MoveOn type groups not trying to instigate trouble. Although, that could have been the plan all along, for all we know.

[SeedyROM]

Absolutly going to happen if he loses.
Not sure how much though.
Hope the national guard has enough here to handle this.
I drove thru Watt two days after the roits on my motorcycle.
103 st. looked like it had been carpet bombed.

It could get crazy, cops here are already planning just in case and they are keeping the plans kind of quiet so it doesn't get people thinking about it. My motorcycle group has 26 members and a couple of SWAT guys. Every police agency nationwide is concerned.

[Smurf-Herder]

It could get crazy, cops here are already planning just in case and they are keeping the plans kind of quiet so it doesn't get people thinking about it. My motorcycle group has 26 members and a couple of SWAT guys. Every police agency nationwide is concerned.

Could this whole thing be subliminal intimidation, trying to scare some of the people on the fence into voting for Obama? I'm sure it will at least have that effect on some, even unintentionally.

[bairdi]

I don't think you guys have to worry. After the debates and America sees the candidates side by side, Obama should win by a landslide. I did hear though that some police have been warned to be on high alert for any unusual activity at nursing homes should McCain lose in a close vote. :lmao2:

[doctordog]

I don't think you guys have to worry. After the debates and America sees the candidates side by side, Obama should win by a landslide. I did hear though that some police have been warned to be on high alert for any unusual activity at nursing homes should McCain lose in a close vote. :lmao2:

This is only the opinion of the far left, Obama is seen as inexperienced and a flip flopper by moderates and the right. This is the worst year of choices since I have started voting but I say McCain takes it as more Americans come to realize that we need experience not someone who has a great speech writer.

[Independent Harry]

This is only the opinion of the far left, Obama is seen as inexperienced and a flip flopper by moderates and the right. This is the worst year of choices since I have started voting but I say McCain takes it as more Americans come to realize that we need experience not someone who has a great speech writer.

Experience is overated, as Lincoln proved quite well. maybe you should know your history of great presidents. not too many of them had all that much experience...

[bairdi]

This is only the opinion of the far left, Obama is seen as inexperienced and a flip flopper by moderates and the right. This is the worst year of choices since I have started voting but I say McCain takes it as more Americans come to realize that we need experience not someone who has a great speech writer.
I thought the Dems had a great line up of candidates this year. My choice was Edwards followed by Biden, but any of them were far superior to anything the Pubs had to offer. Obama is going to make a good and possibly great president.

[bairdi]

If nothing else, Obama is an asshole.

He got his photo-op with troops in Kuwait and Iraq. but couldn't bring his campaign media entourage into the disabled war veteran's hospital. The Pentagon would only let him in as a Senator with a Senate Staffer and a military photo team. So he said fuck it, and went to the Gym at the Ritz Carlton instead.
Republican congressman Chuck Hagel tends to disagree with you.


United Press International - News. Analysis. Insight.™ - 100 Years of Journalistic Excellence
Hagel defends Obama from attacks
Published: July 27, 2008 at 6:13 PM
WASHINGTON, July 27 (UPI) -- U.S. Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., Sunday defended presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama from recent political attacks.

Hagel said during an appearance on CBS's "Face the Nation" that U.S. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., the likely GOP nominee, was pushing the ethical envelope by questioning the Illinois senator's motivations for opposing the Iraq war.

"I think John is treading on some very thin ground here when he impugns motives, when we start to get into, 'You're less patriotic than me' and 'I'm more patriotic.' I admire and respect John McCain; we talk often. John's better than that," Hagel said.

Hagel also criticized a new McCain campaign advertisement that makes it appear Obama spends more time at the gym than with wounded U.S. troops stationed overseas.

The advertisement also appears to suggest Obama canceled a visit such troops when he was in Germancy once he learned it would not be broadcast.

"He certainly would have been criticized, if, on a political trip, to go and be accused of using our wounded troops as props for his campaign," Hagel said on the CBS news program. "I think it would have been totally inappropriate of him, on a trip financed by campaign funds, to go into a military hospital. Based on what I know; he did the right thing."

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/07/27/Hagel_defends_Obama_from_attacks/UPI-48141217196796/

[Mr, gone]

At least Obama can eloquently form complete cohesive sentences. Brain cell challenged Bush in comparison sounds like a mumbler.

What an embarassement he is attempting to represent this country around the world.

[SeedyROM]

Could this whole thing be subliminal intimidation, trying to scare some of the people on the fence into voting for Obama? I'm sure it will at least have that effect on some, even unintentionally.

Maybe some of the undecided moveon.org types. Bunch of sleazy crooks
on that site.

[Dale escondido]

Could this whole thing be subliminal intimidation, trying to scare some of the people on the fence into voting for Obama? I'm sure it will at least have that effect on some, even unintentionally.

Isnt politics now all about tweaking every advantage.
Probably some truth in spinning fear into advantage.
But there are still very segregated impoverished areas in our country.
The hope they see from Obama will surly turn to anger if he loses.
How bad? Who knows? Maybe not much. That would be nice.

[Binky]

I thought the Dems had a great line up of candidates this year. My choice was Edwards followed by Biden, but any of them were far superior to anything the Pubs had to offer. Obama is going to make a good and possibly great president.

The jury is still out on that one!

[Binky]

Isnt politics now all about tweaking every advantage.
Probably some truth in spinning fear into advantage.
But there are still very segregated impoverished areas in our country.
The hope they see from Obama will surly turn to anger if he loses.
How bad? Who knows? Maybe not much. That would be nice.


He should be speaking of those impoverished areas an working towards a solution to make them better, rather than over seas pandering to those who are aren't voting for him.

He is not running for president of the world.

[SeedyROM]

I thought the Dems had a great line up of candidates this year. My choice was Edwards followed by Biden, but any of them were far superior to anything the Pubs had to offer. Obama is going to make a good and possibly great president.


Edwards is gone, no veep title for him, he has a scandal brewing, I'll post that shorlty.
The short story is Dems are squelching free speech in an effort to play cover up.