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disrupter
07-07-2008, 09:18 PM
Obama seems ready to flip flop on FISA & telecom immunity.

It looks likely i will be flip flopping my vote to Nader in response.

At least Obama is beginning to show his true colors before the November election.

Thanks Obama, for shedding your skin,
you may slither to DC, but it won't be with my support.

Netroots Activists Mad at Obama for Spy Bill Flip-Flop
By Sarah Lai Stirland, July 07, 2008


Netroots activists
who helped Barack Obama to become the Democratic party's presumptive presidential nominee
are unmoved by the senator's explanation of his change of heart on a pending bill regarding warrantless wiretapping.
The Obama campaign posted the senator's thoughts on the legislation on the eve of Independence Day, and members of his policy team answered questions for an hour and a half.

"My biggest disappointment is the intellectual disappointment over the shoddiness of the legal analysis that's coming from these statements," says Jon Pincus, a Seattle-area technology strategist and civil liberties activist. Pincus has helped round up 20,000 people using the Obama campaign's social networking tool my.BarackObama.com to ask the senator to reconsider his position. (The group was started just 11 days ago.)

Pincus has also set up a wiki to petition Obama and other congressional representatives to reject the pending legislation, which the Senate is scheduled to debate and approve this Tuesday.

The Seattle activist and 30 to 50 other people on a listserv have also responded to Obama's letter with their own letter. It called for Obama to explain why this latest piece of legislation is so pernicious to civil liberties:



"We ask that you back up your words with action by addressing your constituents on the floor of the Senate with the same oratorical power you used in Philadelphia to lay out your vision of a 'More Perfect Union.'

The American people have just as much right to know of the dangerous precedent this Congress would be setting by granting retroactive immunity to those who 'may have violated the law' and allowing spying on law-abiding citizens as we did to relearn of segregation and Jim Crow."

The bill in question would overhaul surveillance law to provide federal authorities broad powers to engage in blanket surveillance using facilities inside the United States. Civil liberties advocates have argued such a provision is unnecessary because the law already gives the authorities fairly unfettered access to the information they need.

The current bill's most controversial provision, which has split members of the Democratic party, gives telecommunications providers legal immunity against lawsuits. The Electronic Frontier Foundation has filed a class action lawsuit against AT&T charging that it has violated its customers' privacy by complying with the Bush administration's orders to illegally wiretap its traffic.

On Thursday, Obama's internet director Joe Rospars posted a letter from the senator to the activists that said that the legislation up for a vote Tuesday is the best deal that could be achieved.

Obama admitted that telecom immunity "potentially weakens the deterrent effect of the law and removes an important tool for the American people to demand accountability for past abuses." He added that that's why he supports an amendment that would strip the immunity provision from the legislation.

Nevertheless, he added:

"The ability to monitor and track individuals who want to attack the United States is a vital counter-terrorism tool, and I'm persuaded that it is necessary to keep the American people safe -- particularly since certain electronic surveillance orders will begin to expire later this summer. Given the choice between voting for an improved yet imperfect bill, and losing important surveillance tools, I've chosen to support the current compromise."

Glenn Greenwald, an author, vocal civil liberties analyst and advocate at Salon, tore apart Obama's statement on his blog, calling many of Obama's statements misleading. Greenwald argues that existing law already provides the administration with the legal tools it needs to track terrorists.

"The current law results in virtually no denials of any spying requests," Greenwald asks. "So how can Obama -- echoing the Bush administration -- claim a new law is needed to provide 'the authority to collect the intelligence we need to protect the American people' when the current FISA law already provides that?"

Pincus says he'll continue to campaign for Obama no matter what happens because of a lack of viable alternatives, but that Obama's recent flip-flop has diminished his civil liberties credentials -- something that made him an attractive candidate to voters like himself in the first place.

Pincus' support is important even though voters like him may represent only one noisy sliver of the general election electorate to which Obama must appeal: Activists have been strategically important in building Obama's critical mass online, which has translated to subsequent offline action.

He has, for example, helped to recruit supporters to Obama's One Million Strong Facebook group, and he has donated repeatedly to the senator's primary campaign. He has canvassed neighborhoods to turn out the vote for the senator. Supporters like him have said repeatedly over the campaign that it's Obama's clear, reasoned logic and lack of political posturing that appealed to them.

Nevertheless, Obama's position reflects congressional politics: Following the White House' messaging lead, Republicans in congress have repeatedly ignored the nuances of the law to broadly paint Democrats as weak on national security.

"In terms of betrayal, I think in general, I knew what I was getting with him. I don't agree with him on everything, and I think his positions have been clear and consistent," Pincus says. But, he adds, "It would really disappoint me if he's making a decision about a constitutional issue based on what his pollsters are telling him."

Meanwhile, the McCain campaign is already using Obama's FISA flip-flop to attack the senator.

"Over the past several weeks, Barack Obama has made it increasingly difficult to take him at his word on anything," wrote John McCain's senior policy advisor Doug Holtz-Eakin in a memo sent out to the press Monday morning. "After pledging to accept public financing, he decided not to. After saying he would debate 'anywhere, anytime,' he decided against participating in any of the 10 joint town hall meetings. After backing the D.C. handgun ban, he now says it was unconstitutional. After pledging to filibuster the FISA bill, he voted for it."

But a new poll from CNN/Research shows that voters believe both candidates are guilty of flip-flopping. The poll shows that six out of 10 voters believe both candidates change their positions when it's politically expedient.

Even if Obama doesn't vote the way that they want, Pincus says he hopes that the body of 20,000 people can be motivated to influence the senator's stance on other issues during the course of the rest of the campaign.

As Ari Melber notes in the left-leaning weekly magazine The Nation:

"By simultaneously growing its membership, mission and ambition, the spying group exhibits the characteristics of a successful net movement.

MoveOn began with the single objective of fighting Clinton's impeachment, but evolved to tackle other issues that resonated with its members.

The protest against the spying bill began last month by urging Obama to change his vote. After quickly drawing him (and his senior staff) into a dialogue, however, it is nimbly shifting its focus to Obama's role in the immunity floor fight -- an easier request on common ground -- while launching campaigns to target senators with constituents recruited through MyBarackObama.com.

Update: MoveOn.org Political Action's Communications Director Ilyse G. Hogue just sent along the following statement. The group enthusiastically supported Obama during the primary phase of the campaign.

But Obama's latest decision on the FISA bill has disappointed the group's leaders. MoveOn.org Political Action is another strategic group that is planning to call on its 3.2 million members to phone bank and engage in other get-out-the vote efforts during the election's key moments.

We're disappointed in Senator Obama's support of the compromise on FISA—the bill doesn’t go far enough in protecting our constitutional liberties and allows a free pass for phone companies who helped the President illegally wiretap innocent Americans.

We hope Sen. Obama will honor his word and do everything he can to strip this immunity from the bill.

He’s also said that accountability is very important to him, so we’re hoping he will follow up with a plan for how to protect our liberty and our security, along with a plan to bring lawbreakers to justice.

Americans want those who violate the constitution to see consequences; it's a core American value and a winning position for the election.

This along with his strong stands on healthcare, the energy crisis and ending the war can help the Senator win in November.

When Sen. Obama takes those strong stands, we're right there with him; and when he doesn't, we will let him know.http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/07/netroots-activi.html?cid=121452114#comment-121452114

IF law is not righteous it is baseless, empty & inevitably corrupt.

Law is either about standards, fairness & ethics or it is just who gets licensed for the privilege of being corrupt.

It is the difference between shit & biology.
Biological systems have form, order & structure & shit just has rot & stink.

Well congress you have stink & rot if you vote for this.
We already know the whitehouse has stink & rot.

Now my fellow Americans, are you going to follow down this road of shit or are you going to reverse course & chart a new, progressive path instead.

Smurf-Herder
07-08-2008, 05:36 PM
I told you guys, Obama will do anything for winning the election.

IMO, he has never shown his real views or plans. Everything is just for show. Pandering to both sides, just to get in office. Then, who knows what he'll actually do once he's in control.

SeedyROM
07-08-2008, 06:30 PM
Disrupter, it ain't just Obama, the Dems in Congress will flip flop as well. When the minority are against something and then become the majority, politics change to the counter arguement. I've been telling people this for years and it ain't just Telecom Immunity. SSI, Healthcare, Energy, the list goes on and on. And lobbiest firms call the public to raise money from people who are against telecom immunity and the PIG gets fat on the $$$$

Dems were for TI when Clinton was President, Reps were against it. Its a game to tax your time and deceive you into thinking one party is about change and the other is not. Reps will be against TI and they will cry foul and FoxNews will become instant experts on what is wrong with TI, etc..etc....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy
Executive orders by previous administrations including Clinton's and Carter's authorized the attorneys general to exercise authority with respect to both options under FISA.[97][98] In Clinton's executive order, he authorized his attorney general "[pursuant] to section 302(a)(1)" to conduct physical searches without court order "if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section".

It doesn't matter who wins in November, TI will pass eventually. I've never read Nader's position on TI but if he were the front runner I bet he'd be all for it. I worked in this area while serving in the Navy, I can assure you that computers do the majority of the work sniffing packets of data, listening for hundreds of key words, etc...... Humans only touch what the computers kick out as well as program ordered survellienace.

The unwarrented use will grind to a halt in time as the Patriot Act is modified, but if it is used to monitor terrorists and suspected supporters then I'm all for it. We keep the violence from foreigners at a minimum in the USA...............TI is a prime gatekeeper for your freedom!!!

disrupter
07-08-2008, 08:25 PM
SeedyROM there has ALWAYS been a legal way of watching over suspected terrorists,

FOLLOWING FISA LAW.

THIS IS OUTLAW SPYING ON EVERY SINGLE CELL & LANDLINE PHONE CALL & INTERNET PACKET OF EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN.

and yes it is all done by super computers.
special hardware had to be installed in AT&T Spy rooms just to funnel all the data.
the software for landlines is Carnivore [aka DCS1000] & Quantico Circuit for Cell phone tapping.

As the words 'we are not dataming' came from Bush's mouth that was a known & blatant lie by him.

the NSA, Whitehouse, Telecoms & now the congress are all Illegally spying on Americans in violation of the 4th amendment.

UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

This is not a government it is just a gang of criminals pretending.

Smurf-Herder
07-08-2008, 08:41 PM
SeedyROM there has ALWAYS been a legal way of watching over suspected terrorists,

FOLLOWING FISA LAW.

THIS IS OUTLAW SPYING ON EVERY SINGLE CELL & LANDLINE PHONE CALL & INTERNET PACKET OF EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN.

and yes it is all done by super computers.
special hardware had to be installed in AT&T Spy rooms just to funnel all the data.
the software for landlines is Carnivore [aka DCS1000] & Quantico Circuit for Cell phone tapping.

As the words 'we are not dataming' came from Bush's mouth that was a known & blatant lie by him.

the NSA, Whitehouse, Telecoms & now the congress are all Illegally spying on Americans in violation of the 4th amendment.

UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

This is not a government it is just a gang of criminals pretending.

You're mixing your programs.

The NSA program is specifically foreign communications that get routed through the US. Anything else requires a warrant. Carnivore is a domestic FBI program, that requires a warrant for specified wiretapping, if something is flagged by the software.

I believe Carnivore is a domestic extention of Echelon, the international program which has been in existence for decades.

disrupter
07-08-2008, 08:45 PM
I guarantee you it is Carnivore or a program identical to it.
Probably just an updated version with a 'new' name.

the NSA is nothing less than an infection of criminal gangsters deep inside the US government.

Like those parasites that cause the host to commit suicide for their benefit.

Smurf-Herder
07-08-2008, 08:49 PM
I guarantee you it is Carnivore or a program identical to it.
Probably just an updated version with a 'new' name.

the NSA is nothing less than an infection of criminal gangsters deep inside the US government.

Like those parasites that cause the host to commit suicide for their benefit.

Have you checked yourself for parasites lately?

kres24GT
07-08-2008, 10:09 PM
Obama = same ol' crap, you don't say?

Glad to see you are learning Rep/Dem, no difference. Glad to hear you are voting for Nader.

SeedyROM
07-09-2008, 04:01 AM
SeedyROM there has ALWAYS been a legal way of watching over suspected terrorists,

FOLLOWING FISA LAW.

THIS IS OUTLAW SPYING ON EVERY SINGLE CELL & LANDLINE PHONE CALL & INTERNET PACKET OF EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN.

and yes it is all done by super computers.
special hardware had to be installed in AT&T Spy rooms just to funnel all the data.
the software for landlines is Carnivore [aka DCS1000] & Quantico Circuit for Cell phone tapping.

As the words 'we are not dataming' came from Bush's mouth that was a known & blatant lie by him.

the NSA, Whitehouse, Telecoms & now the congress are all Illegally spying on Americans in violation of the 4th amendment.

UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

This is not a government it is just a gang of criminals pretending.

Exactly FISA! Sometimes in the heat of the chase after 9/11 the FBI used loopholes to circumvent and expedite arrests, that's the DC Tango of loopholes and everybodies opinion of the law, crazy shit I know.

Research "Magic Lantern" software, this program is Mad Tyght !! One of the best keystroke loggers to come out of the FBI geek house. Even the antivirus companies have difficulty detecting it. It flows like water over a cliff on the internet.

Clandestine survelliance is okay in my book, we don't see it, hear it or even detect it. The Next Congress will clean up Bush's oversights and lapses in judgement. But the telecoms are innocent, they have no choice, its like they get this sweet $$contract$$ or some other company gets it and they access the phone lines anyway. National security types are spooky by nature as are the forces that be thier bureaucratic and politcal bosses. Plenty of room to clean up the mess Bush left us with but immunity is the only way it will work.

SeedyROM
07-09-2008, 04:08 AM
I guarantee you it is Carnivore or a program identical to it.
Probably just an updated version with a 'new' name.

the NSA is nothing less than an infection of criminal gangsters deep inside the US government.

Like those parasites that cause the host to commit suicide for their benefit.

Carnivore is ancient, DARPA developed something new called
TIA "Total Information Awareness" program

not much data on how it works, just the general stuff that is free, people in th eloop go to jail if they talk about these programs without permission.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Awareness_Office

Carnivore has been replaced by who knows what, the FBI is sitting on the details. A canned program, aka 3rd party software. It wouldn't suprise me if Carnvore is still cruzin the net too.:D

disrupter
07-09-2008, 05:40 AM
I am not sure, but there may be one small advantage with low-band width dial up,
When they start trying to use heavy data suck up programs it would probably be noticeable.
With broad band you probably wouldn't even notice that they are spying on anything or everything you are doing.

Magic Lantern sounds like a store keyboard intercept program.
Alternately with a mouse click record system you would have to also do a screen capture which i am pretty sure would require sizable data streaming, especially if it has to abstract what kind of display layout/system you are using. It might have to abstract what some response windows were associated with, although with constant streaming, in most cases that might be pretty apparent.

I wonder if you could cause them trouble by regularly changing the screen pixelation/granularity? Of course the screen layout must be implicit in recording mouse clicks by the operating system as well as spyware.

I do wonder that people with high bandwidth may have all sorts of unknown stuff going on to & from their machine which is almost undetectable.

Our government is loaded with creeps.
Lying cheating, criminal creeps.

And a few of them are so wildly psychotic they would shock the average American if they only knew.
People really don't want to believe that other people, especially 'their own' Americans in government & the military are capable of that kind of treachery & evil.

soldiers are demoralized close to bags of skin, that the military can then fill with any shape or configuration of shit it may want.

And since there is little or no real civilian oversight it generally goes from bad to worse. The military must be constantly reminded that acting against the constitution is a crime for them as well as everyone else. Some of them will care enough about their nation to at least help mitigate the completely cynical, criminal minds who really care about absolutely nothing but themselves, & sometimes not even that.

the reason they may not want gays in the military or other exclusively [predominantly] male institutions is because they will pose questions. Have perspectives that will attempt to view a larger, grander scheme of things.
And without any oversight i am certain there are unimaginably gross violations of anything decent or legal that go on.

SeedyROM
07-09-2008, 03:34 PM
I am not sure, but there may be one small advantage with low-band width dial up,
When they start trying to use heavy data suck up programs it would probably be noticeable.
With broad band you probably wouldn't even notice that they are spying on anything or everything you are doing.

Magic Lantern sounds like a store keyboard intercept program.
Alternately with a mouse click record system you would have to also do a screen capture which i am pretty sure would require sizable data streaming, especially if it has to abstract what kind of display layout/system you are using. It might have to abstract what some response windows were associated with, although with constant streaming, in most cases that might be pretty apparent.

I wonder if you could cause them trouble by regularly changing the screen pixelation/granularity? Of course the screen layout must be implicit in recording mouse clicks by the operating system as well as spyware.

I do wonder that people with high bandwidth may have all sorts of unknown stuff going on to & from their machine which is almost undetectable.

Our government is loaded with creeps.
Lying cheating, criminal creeps.

And a few of them are so wildly psychotic they would shock the average American if they only knew.
People really don't want to believe that other people, especially 'their own' Americans in government & the military are capable of that kind of treachery & evil.

soldiers are demoralized close to bags of skin, that the military can then fill with any shape or configuration of shit it may want.

And since there is little or no real civilian oversight it generally goes from bad to worse. The military must be constantly reminded that acting against the constitution is a crime for them as well as everyone else. Some of them will care enough about their nation to at least help mitigate the completely cynical, criminal minds who really care about absolutely nothing but themselves, & sometimes not even that.

the reason they may not want gays in the military or other exclusively [predominantly] male institutions is because they will pose questions. Have perspectives that will attempt to view a larger, grander scheme of things.
And without any oversight i am certain there are unimaginably gross violations of anything decent or legal that go on.

From what I understand, speed is not a factor, high speed or low they see what they want to see if the program becomes interested in someone online. One key is to go low tech with older PC (older pc, older software) with a 500Mhz or lower processor and use a VPN Tunnel or a Socks 5 Proxy server from a 3rd party company that masks the users identity online. They can penetrate the majority of those systems. Hackers and other privacy sensative surfers know what works and who offers the best protection against govt. snooping.

In my opinon Microsoft has made it easier to penetrate a pc with all the update software that phones home to check for upgrades. Plenty of back doors and open ports to sneak in on and send out data at will.