Obama's Reparations

[chriswallace112]

Barack Obama is the greatest hope for us to finally rise above our past and be able to take our rightful place in society. No other act or event, be it affirmative action or programs for the underprivileged, has come close to evening out the playing field between the races. There is no doubt that the first African-American President will lift our people up and finally give us our due: Reparations for Slavery. Obama understands how our people have struggled, how our people have been oppressed, and how our people have not been able to defeat small-mindedness and racism in America. No other president has ever known our pain and this is our first chance to reverse course.

Of course, Obama cannot simply say that he will compensate African-Americans for centuries of slavery and inhuman treatment because the forces of racism are still running the show. But when Obama speaks of giving back to the people, of giving us hope, and of creating change, he is speaking to his people and we must read between the lines. Obama won’t simply sign checks, but change the entire power structure to finally benefit our people. This includes investing in education in our neighborhoods, taking away ingrained privileges and ingrained racism in government. We will no longer be swept aside when Obama becomes the face of America. We cannot fail him.

Bush may have destroyed confidence in government, but Obama’s rise won’t be very easy. It won’t be easy to turn the tables against the racists that pretend to represent the nation. As president, he will be in the best position to destroy the idea that only the racial majority should be represented. He will combat special interests and small town prejudice that have hijacked government. Obama is not a revolutionary, a Black Panther, a Malcolm X, or a Farrakhan, but he has brought us closer to taking back from history what history took from us. America owes us.

[Hog Trash]

I am a white American as is most my friends, neighbors, and acquaintances. I have known very few white racists in my many years on this planet. White on black crime is almost non-existent. The opportunities to succeed in America are plentiful to all and have no racial boundaries for anyone willing to get an education and work hard. I personally know and know of many very wealthy black Americans. I also know and know of very many poor white Americans. It has been more than five generations since the end of slavery. Even when slavery existed it was not legal in all states. The people who owned slaves were a very small fraction of the population. Even then many white Americans thought slavery was a terrible injustice. 84 years after the United States declared its independence from England a brutal and bloody war was fought and slavery was no more. I have found the white race to be a very loving, caring, generous, and compassionate people. I for one am a little sick of having my race continuously slandered with these false charges of racism. This is in my opinion an excuse for someones failure or a ploy to get something for nothing. Move on!

[bairdi]

I am a white American as is most my friends, neighbors, and acquaintances. I have known very few white racists in my many years on this planet.
You must have lived a very sheltered life.

[Hog Trash]

You must have lived a very sheltered life.

I was born into poverty, raised and schooled in the ghetto. I fought in a war and have traveled most of the United States and much of the World. Does that sound sheltered? Maybe it's you that has been sheltered.

[Moby]

I run into racism and forms of hatred all the time. It's usually born on ignorance and the inability to open one's mind. I too have travelled all over the USA and over 30 different countries. I know that some people travel in a closed manner and others in an open manner.

[chriswallace112]

I'm very sorry if my comments have been taken as disingenuous or as absurd, but lately this is something that I have been thinking about very carefully. I do not dispute that we have made advances in race relations and the treatment of African-Americans over the years. Of course, given the words written on the Declaration of Independence and the spirit of the Constitution, these corrections came much too late.

What did emancipation and civil rights actually do for African-Americans? Basically, it finally gave "equal" opportunities to all Americans regardless of race. I will not get into the "equality" as practice, which is not the same as theory as any black person can attest to. I am not here to discuss every grievance nor to highlight what some think is only a social problem, but that most in the black community think is an institutionalized type of racism that goes by a different name. I will take the question of equal opportunity at face value for the purpose of making my point.

While I agree that in this country hard work and ingenuity can pay off and that immigrants that came to this country haven't been asking for compensation... this view that African-Americans should just get in line like the rest of those who came to the new world is intellectually naive. Like entrepreneurs, immigrants that came to this country were escaping political or economic conditions and taking a big risk, hoping that they could achieve the American dream. They knew what they were getting into and they worked to get here. African slaves had no such luxury. They were forcibly removed from their homelands, bought and traded like mere commodities, had to endure humiliation and forced labor... and now, the nation that enslaved them and denied them this "American Dream" is asking us to get in line like everyone else, to suck it up because we now have opportunity. Is this right?

Immigrants wanted to take a chance and start at zero. African slaves were denied every opportunity and treated as second class citizens. That's a huge difference. And don't think that this is simply asking for a handout, personally I worked hard and do very well in life, but look at the disproportionate representation of blacks in prisons and performance in education. This is a general social problem that... ultimately requires a general social solution. Does that mean penalizing European immigrants who had nothing to do with slavery? I don't think that it should. Does it mean that the nation as a whole must understand that being American is to take responsibility for your brother? I think that the concept of "nation" means that we must consider old sins that are of a national or universal character, than simply saying "I wasn't there... deal with it." I am not spewing hatred or racism... in fact, nowadays people like Rev. Wright are condemned for what's considered "reverse-racism"... which is a slogan that is so often used to censor or silence legitimate (and sometimes illegitimate) grievances from a certain perspective. Come on... we haven't had it easy, why can't we explain what we feel, especially when we attribute family problems, drug problems, crime problems, education problems to these things we view as a continuation of a racist policy aimed against us. I don't think that white or brown or yellow America is as racist as in the past today... but then why should I fear taking a wrong turn in Texas or Mississippi? Americans should feel included in America... and lots of us don't. Basically, reparations, while not necessarily meaning emptying everyone's pockets for the benefit of African-Americans, will show that as a nation we are willing to repair this rift between what continues to be a divided America.

Will Obama be the answer? I hope he can start this dialogue again in America and explain why it’s necessary. He's brilliant. And I couldn't imagine that the first African-American (half white... touché) president would ignore the centuries old original sin of this country... this is what I feel and I wonder what everyone else thinks.. I don't hear too much about this in the MSM.

[Binky]

I'm 61 years old and have been working with the public most of my life in one fashion or another. And I've found that no matter what a persons color is, he or she is going to be an asshole if they choose to be, because it's in their nature. I've known and met thousands of people from all walks of life and color or creed, and I can truthfully say that the thing I enjoy doing the most is bringing a smile to their faces. It doesn't matter what color they are, a smile is a smile.

It really saddens me that in this century we are still having to deal with this. I'm very sorry that such horrendous things happened during the slave era. But remember, and I'm not making any excuses for it, just stating a fact, that in many cases, the parents of slaves sold their own children for a buck. That in itself is heartless and heartbreaking. I would never have been able to do that to my children. And then in other cases, Englishmen kidnapped a lot of them and brought them to America. Many times, evil lives in the hearts of men, and this is why slavery existed here in the first place. If there hadn't been anyone to buy them, then the slave drivers would have gone elsewhere to sell them. I don't know why men felt it necessary to own someone. Or to treat them abusively. I can't speak for them. All I know is that evil existed then as it does now, and I'm sorry we can't seem to get past this. There have been lots of evil men throughout history that have preyed on the weak. Sincerely from my heart, I hope nothing as this ever happens in America again. However, it isn't fair to go through life blaming all white Americans for it. If memory serves me correct, slavery existed in the southern states and not in the north. And it's always easier to blame someone for something rather than taking control of ones own life and making it better. Do yourself a favor and don't let this issue eat you alive. Do you really want to grow old stewing over this? We have so little time on this earth as it is, why spend it dwelling over the past? Have some fun in your life. Get out and meet people. Chat with them. Get to know them. You're life will be that much more enriched.

[chriswallace112]

I personally do not stew over every injustice done to me or even in this macro-scale. But when asked I can say that in good conscience I will not allow a sin to pass, be it mine or anothers', without speaking out against it.

The idea here is what it means to be American... an inclusive phrase that denotes that we are part of a group. We choose to be American, else we can just leave and get citizenship elsewhere. America was built off hard work, some voluntary and some not. For the wrongs of this country to simply be blown off as someone wanting something for nothing is do perpetuate this injustice. The benefits of slavery propped up the entire country's economy, not merely the south but north, east, and west. Is it wrong to ask for compensation simply because generation after generation of asking and petitioning the government, the standard answer has been "no"? Do we say that "you've been denied enough, just accept it, it's too late"?

Though this comparison is rough and not entirely accurate it serves a purpose: should Germans or Italians that lived after the defeat of fascism be exempt from anti-Nazi and anti-fascist laws?? This was an issue affecting entire nations and it took national policies to try to fix what went wrong. Slavery was wrong. The accumulation of wealth and capital by non-blacks simply because of race was wrong. We cannot ignore that black people as a group have suffered simply for being "different"... saying "it's over now" does not help African-American youth reclaim their culture, it does not alleviate issues having to do with crime, it does not help with our education... it's cruel to think it does... to just wash our hands of the past and say "we had nothing to do with that" is just wrong... it seems that the modern solution to racism is indifference.

[Frankg]

Chris

2 questions

How much do you feel that YOU PERSONALLY deserve?

Do you take plastic ?

[Hog Trash]

I run into racism and forms of hatred all the time. It's usually born on ignorance and the inability to open one's mind. I too have travelled all over the USA and over 30 different countries. I know that some people travel in a closed manner and others in an open manner.

You will not force your political correctness upon me to deprive me of my free thought and speech. As Doctor King once suggested, I judge people by the content of their heart and not something so foolish as the color of their skin. Slavery is a non-issue. It has not existed in the US for 144 years. As a member of the white race I feel no guilt and owe no reparations to anyone. Are their still racist? Of course there is. Nazi's, KKK's, Black Panthers, Black Liberation Theologists, Muslim Jihad Extremists, the list is extensive. They have no power. They shout their hatred into the darkness to the empty ears of ignorance. The good will ignore them.

[chriswallace112]

Chris

2 questions

How much do you feel that YOU PERSONALLY deserve?

Do you take plastic ?

I don't want a mere check... I want a solution.. but first it requires a conversation with all Americans who are willing to be responsible for this nation. We must support each other... otherwise we all fall

[Hog Trash]

I personally do not stew over every injustice done to me or even in this macro-scale. But when asked I can say that in good conscience I will not allow a sin to pass, be it mine or anothers', without speaking out against it.

The idea here is what it means to be American... an inclusive phrase that denotes that we are part of a group. We choose to be American, else we can just leave and get citizenship elsewhere. America was built off hard work, some voluntary and some not. For the wrongs of this country to simply be blown off as someone wanting something for nothing is do perpetuate this injustice. The benefits of slavery propped up the entire country's economy, not merely the south but north, east, and west. Is it wrong to ask for compensation simply because generation after generation of asking and petitioning the government, the standard answer has been "no"? Do we say that "you've been denied enough, just accept it, it's too late"?

Though this comparison is rough and not entirely accurate it serves a purpose: should Germans or Italians that lived after the defeat of fascism be exempt from anti-Nazi and anti-fascist laws?? This was an issue affecting entire nations and it took national policies to try to fix what went wrong. Slavery was wrong. The accumulation of wealth and capital by non-blacks simply because of race was wrong. We cannot ignore that black people as a group have suffered simply for being "different"... saying "it's over now" does not help African-American youth reclaim their culture, it does not alleviate issues having to do with crime, it does not help with our education... it's cruel to think it does... to just wash our hands of the past and say "we had nothing to do with that" is just wrong... it seems that the modern solution to racism is indifference.

Can you name me one group of people who have never suffered an injustice? We move on. If you dwell on the past you can't take care of the now or plan for the future. Reparations will never happen unless you make them yourself.

[Binky]

I personally do not stew over every injustice done to me or even in this macro-scale. But when asked I can say that in good conscience I will not allow a sin to pass, be it mine or anothers', without speaking out against it.

The idea here is what it means to be American... an inclusive phrase that denotes that we are part of a group. We choose to be American, else we can just leave and get citizenship elsewhere. America was built off hard work, some voluntary and some not. For the wrongs of this country to simply be blown off as someone wanting something for nothing is do perpetuate this injustice. The benefits of slavery propped up the entire country's economy, not merely the south but north, east, and west. Is it wrong to ask for compensation simply because generation after generation of asking and petitioning the government, the standard answer has been "no"? Do we say that "you've been denied enough, just accept it, it's too late"?

Though this comparison is rough and not entirely accurate it serves a purpose: should Germans or Italians that lived after the defeat of fascism be exempt from anti-Nazi and anti-fascist laws?? This was an issue affecting entire nations and it took national policies to try to fix what went wrong. Slavery was wrong. The accumulation of wealth and capital by non-blacks simply because of race was wrong. We cannot ignore that black people as a group have suffered simply for being "different"... saying "it's over now" does not help African-American youth reclaim their culture, it does not alleviate issues having to do with crime, it does not help with our education... it's cruel to think it does... to just wash our hands of the past and say "we had nothing to do with that" is just wrong... it seems that the modern solution to racism is indifference.


I can see from your post that you don't want to address the fact that the parents of slaves sold their own children into slavery. That's how wonderful blacks were. See, even they were capable of horrific things and I can't even imagine doing that.

All you want to do is blame. After centuries long past, still the blacks, for the most part, haven't lifted a finger to help themselves out of poverty. Unless, of course, it's to lift the property of others and make it their own.

I'm done speaking of this as it's apparent you continue to wallow in self pity and think, "woe is me." So be it!

[Hog Trash]

chriswallace112; I would be interested in knowing your age now and growing up, who provided your food, clothing, housing, medical care, and college tuition and expenses if you are or were a student? You sound young, intelligent and educated. Please be honest, you may realize something important about your self and the world. Keep in mind you're anonymous.

One more question. You mentioned Obama becoming president and making reparations to the descendants of slaves.
If he tries and fails who will you blame? If he does not try will you be angry at him?

[Cat slave]

Read my "signature"....can you seriously find fault with it??????????
I think it pretty well nails the whole issue of reparations.

And if you want to whine about something that happened a long time ago,
we women could match the subservancy and abuse that would far out do
the plight of African slavery.

We used to be treated like farm animals. We could not own property, have
our own money, were kept "in line" by patriarchal religions through all time,
ruled by brute strength, and only in the last century gained the right to vote.

Its not like that anymore so theres no point on dragging it out, whining over
it or making someone pay for things they didnt do to someone who is gone!

Note my signature, please, and tell me how it is not right.

[Cat slave]

You will not force your political correctness upon me to deprive me of my free thought and speech. As Doctor King once suggested, I judge people by the content of their heart and not something so foolish as the color of their skin. Slavery is a non-issue. It has not existed in the US for 144 years. As a member of the white race I feel no guilt and owe no reparations to anyone. Are their still racist? Of course there is. Nazi's, KKK's, Black Panthers, Black Liberation Theologists, Muslim Jihad Extremists, the list is extensive. They have no power. They shout their hatred into the darkness to the empty ears of ignorance. The good will ignore them.

Racism is not all white and America did not invent slavery...not even the
south is guilty of inventing it. And....its still going on today over the world.
Would not energy be better utilized in freeing the slaves of the 21st century
in backward and war torn nations and not cling to something that has been
decades long past...gone!

[chriswallace112]

chriswallace112; I would be interested in knowing your age now and growing up, who provided your food, clothing, housing, medical care, and college tuition and expenses if you are or were a student? You sound young, intelligent and educated. Please be honest, you may realize something important about your self and the world. Keep in mind you're anonymous.

One more question. You mentioned Obama becoming president and making reparations to the descendants of slaves.
If he tries and fails who will you blame? If he does not try will you be angry at him?

I'm in my late twenties and my family provided me with necessities. The government helped with college tuition, medical care, etc. As is afforded to all Americans of similar economic standing.

About Obama, if he tries and fails, which I somewhat expect... I believe that he will make it possible to discuss this in a public forum without being smeared as an extremist or a black nationalist. He must address this topic if he is to be taken seriously as a new kind of politician who is not afraid to tackle problems large or small. He can talk to Iran about nukes but not to Americans about race? Of course he will.

I am not an angry black man... this is a device used to scare people... I simply believe that we can have a conversation about reparations without descending into the same-old arguments. Only Obama can make reparations a real issue... and not a fringe one. I think that he must. I think that he should.

[Hog Trash]

I'm in my late twenties and my family provided me with necessities. The government helped with college tuition, medical care, etc. As is afforded to all Americans of similar economic standing.

About Obama, if he tries and fails, which I somewhat expect... I believe that he will make it possible to discuss this in a public forum without being smeared as an extremist or a black nationalist. He must address this topic if he is to be taken seriously as a new kind of politician who is not afraid to tackle problems large or small. He can talk to Iran about nukes but not to Americans about race? Of course he will.

I am not an angry black man... this is a device used to scare people... I simply believe that we can have a conversation about reparations without descending into the same-old arguments. Only Obama can make reparations a real issue... and not a fringe one. I think that he must. I think that he should.

Your family provided your economic needs and government money "which is the earnings of American workers, payed in taxes" took up the slack of your needs. It sounds like your parents were not deprived of economic opportunity and the people you say are racist were there in your time of needed assistance. Not everyone makes it to the top rung of the ladder, including white folks.

I saw a statistic that 90+ % of black voters are pro-Obama. This is sad. It tells me they will vote for him simply because he is black. This is just as bad as whites who would not vote for him because he's black. You say he will push for financial reparations for blacks. This is just one more of many good reasons to not vote for Obama of which race has nothing to do with it. This would be a very decisive move. Americans are already financially stressed and this would be the proverbial straw. I know for a fact "reparations" will never happen for the simple reason it would be political suicide for most politicians who love their cushy jobs. You sound like an intelligent young man. get the best education you possibly can, work hard to to build a reputation for reliability, honesty and a good, hard work ethic and you will prosper. Abandon any quest for a free ride as it is detrimental to success. Good luck.

[bairdi]

I saw a statistic that 90+ % of black voters are pro-Obama. This is sad. It tells me they will vote for him simply because he is black. This is just as bad as whites who would not vote for him because he's black.
94% of black voters voted for Lyndon Johnson. 88% of black voters voted for Al Gore. No Republican has gotten more than 15% of the black vote since the 1965 Voters Act was signed. Every candidate in the general election had white skin. Your conclusions are wrong.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/when_did_blacks_start_voting_democratic.html

[chriswallace112]

Your family provided your economic needs and government money "which is the earnings of American workers, payed in taxes" took up the slack of your needs. It sounds like your parents were not deprived of economic opportunity and the people you say are racist were there in your time of needed assistance. Not everyone makes it to the top rung of the ladder, including white folks.

... You sound like an intelligent young man. get the best education you possibly can, work hard to to build a reputation for reliability, honesty and a good, hard work ethic and you will prosper. Abandon any quest for a free ride as it is detrimental to success. Good luck.

Absolutely, I do not dispute that social programs exist to help those at the lower end of the economic ladder... but that assistance is universal, afforded to all Americans. Personally, I was not directly deprived of economic opportunity, though some of my peers would say otherwise. I am referring to a group injury, maybe I'm being overly philosophical, but I am reacting to a very real situation in this country.

When the color of one's skin becomes the basis of acceptance in society for an extended period of time, the net loss to that community is devastating. If you would like... I'll forgo reparations since I don't think I need it, though it would make me think that this country truly does care about it's history and the legacy of hatred it created. Essentially, it would be a nice gesture. To others, it would turn their lives around and put an end to the entire victim mentality that we are accused of sometimes. If reparations are given, and the black community agrees, then there's no reason to keep demanding justice (justice has been done).

While not everyone makes it to the top... everyone isn't forced to stay on the bottom until the mid-1900's. As a person, I will continue to grow... but as a citizen of a nation, I must help the nation heal, which will help the nation grow. Thanks for your good personal advice... but you are not dealing with a tormented soul who shakes his fist at the sky because of some old crimes against people who kind of looked like me. I truly believe that it just takes someone to bring up in the public arena the argument that national sins require national solutions and that justice is never too late. The only person who I think can transcend all of that and who is one of the greatest communicators of our time is Obama. He may not accomplish it.. but he has the best chance of starting an honest and open dialogue about it.

[Cat slave]

I'm in my late twenties and my family provided me with necessities. The government helped with college tuition, medical care, etc. As is afforded to all Americans of similar economic standing.

About Obama, if he tries and fails, which I somewhat expect... I believe that he will make it possible to discuss this in a public forum without being smeared as an extremist or a black nationalist. He must address this topic if he is to be taken seriously as a new kind of politician who is not afraid to tackle problems large or small. He can talk to Iran about nukes but not to Americans about race? Of course he will.

I am not an angry black man... this is a device used to scare people... I simply believe that we can have a conversation about reparations without descending into the same-old arguments. Only Obama can make reparations a real issue... and not a fringe one. I think that he must. I think that he should.

And just how many decades are we supposed to address this part of history?

[Cat slave]

Perhaps we should spring for reparations! And in return for the one time
mass entitlement it would end affirmative action, quotas and every single
benefit that has been created to aid anyone of any certain color, gender,
age or political persuasion or religion or lack thereof. That should cover
most things!!!
The subject would be closed. Done. No more. Gone. Think about it.

[Cat slave]

94% of black voters voted for Lyndon Johnson. 88% of black voters voted for Al Gore. No Republican has gotten more than 15% of the black vote since the 1965 Voters Act was signed. Every candidate in the general election had white skin. Your conclusions are wrong.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/when_did_blacks_start_voting_democratic.html


So, whats your point. Most black people are democrats. They fail to remember
the Pubs who supported them in the civil rights movement. Al Gores parental
unit voted against the civil rights bill. And who was Lincoln?

[bairdi]

So, whats your point. Most black people are democrats. They fail to remember
the Pubs who supported them in the civil rights movement. Al Gores parental
unit voted against the civil rights bill. And who was Lincoln?
The point is that blacks are not supporting Obama just because of the color of his skin as Hog claims. I thought my comments were pretty self explanatory.

[Cat slave]

But they are and that doesnt exclude whites supporting him. Once everyone
gets over Hitlary failing they will flock to Obama en mass. Guess they forgot
about their other "first black president" and need a new one.

[Hog Trash]

94% of black voters voted for Lyndon Johnson. 88% of black voters voted for Al Gore. No Republican has gotten more than 15% of the black vote since the 1965 Voters Act was signed. Every candidate in the general election had white skin. Your conclusions are wrong.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/when_did_blacks_start_voting_democratic.html

I was referring to his bid for the Democratic Presidential Nomination against

Clinton, Edwards, and the rest of those clowns. No Republicans clowns involved.

[bairdi]

I was referring to his bid for the Democratic Presidential Nomination against

Clinton, Edwards, and the rest of those clowns. No Republicans clowns involved.
That is not what your post said and nowhere was it implied.

[bairdi]

But they are and that doesnt exclude whites supporting him. Once everyone
gets over Hitlary failing they will flock to Obama en mass. Guess they forgot
about their other "first black president" and need a new one.
That's great! I hope he gets 90% of the white, hispanic, asian, red, yellow, blue, green, orange, flesh colored, and tanned vote too.

[Hog Trash]

Absolutely, I doof acceptance in society for an extended period of time, the net loss to that community is devastating. If you would like... I'll forgo reparations since I don't think I need it, though it would make me think that this country truly does care about it's history and the legacy of hatred it created. Essentially, it would be a nice gesture. To others, it would turn their lives around and put an end to the entire victim mentality that we are accused of sometimes. If reparations are given, and the black community agrees, then there's no reason to keep demanding justice (justice has been done).

Americans are not like the Muslims who deny the Holocaust. Nearly all Americans acknowledge slavery once existed in the US and much of the world 144 years ago. Many people and races were victims for many centuries in most every nation or empire. In Africa some tribes were slave victims to other tribes. White Americans do not feel responsiblie for Americas history of slavery or a misguided legacy of hatred against them. They've never seen a slave or known a slave owner no more than they've ever seen a dinosaur. They work for today and plan for tomorrow. They have no plan to pay there hard earned money to victims who no longer exist of victimizers who no longer exist. They laugh at the obserdity of such a proposal. It will never happen. You have to except that as reality and move on.

[Hog Trash]

That is not what your post said and nowhere was it implied.

OK, you got me. I do have a tendancy to exclude the obvious for some dumb reason. I will strive to keep you in mind from now on.

[Hog Trash]

You want to talk about black voting. Mayor Marion Barry of Washington DC. Busted smoking crack with a "prostitute" in a cheap dive motel, tried, convicted served jail time and re-elected as Mayor after serving his jail time. Why? Because he was black. I can't link this but you go ahead and believe what ever you want. This was a sad day for our Capital.

[bairdi]

OK, you got me. I do have a tendancy to exclude the obvious for some dumb reason. I will strive to keep you in mind from now on.
The obvious is that you are wrong again there big guy. The conclusion you were drawing concerning black support for Obama was wrong. Just admit it. It's easy.

In a national survey by CNN/Opinion Research Corp., 59 percent of black Democrats backed Obama, an Illinois Democrat, for their party's presidential nomination, with 31 percent supporting Clinton, the senator from New York.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/18/poll.2008/index.html

The 90% figure came from polling on the general election.


Obama's Candidacy Underscores Crosscurrents of Race and Politics
Poll Finds Four in 10 Think Obama's Candidacy Will Improve Race Relations

BLACK VOTE – Blacks, meanwhile, remain fairly monolithic in terms of presidential preferences – not because there's a black candidate, but because they're the single most loyal Democratic voting bloc. Ninety percent of blacks support Obama, just as 88 percent backed Kerry in 2004 and 90 percent voted for Gore in 2000.

http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/Politics/Story?id=5202366&page=3

[Hog Trash]

The obvious is that you are wrong again there big guy. The conclusion you were drawing concerning black support for Obama was wrong. Just admit it. It's easy.

In a national survey by CNN/Opinion Research Corp., 59 percent of black Democrats backed Obama, an Illinois Democrat, for their party's presidential nomination, with 31 percent supporting Clinton, the senator from New York.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/18/poll.2008/index.html

The 90% figure came from polling on the general election.


Obama's Candidacy Underscores Crosscurrents of Race and Politics
Poll Finds Four in 10 Think Obama's Candidacy Will Improve Race Relations

BLACK VOTE – Blacks, meanwhile, remain fairly monolithic in terms of presidential preferences – not because there's a black candidate, but because they're the single most loyal Democratic voting bloc. Ninety percent of blacks support Obama, just as 88 percent backed Kerry in 2004 and 90 percent voted for Gore in 2000.

http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/Politics/Story?id=5202366&page=3

Polls varied depending on who, when and where they were conducted. And I realy don't think you're so stupid as to believe I'm wrong about the criteria of many black voters. You're just to PC to admit it.

[Betty Blowtorch]

Reparations for the descendants of slaves is a ridiculous idea.
Obama would be a self-destructive idiot to go anywhere near
this issue. It's political suicide. Please don't push this issue.
We want Obama to win. If Obama even remotely hinted that
he wants to pay reparations, he would be ripped to shreds
by the right wing, and lose the election. It's a dumb idea.

A more appropriate solution would be to provide educational
and employment opportunities for low-income people so they
can pull themselves up and achieve their full potential if they
are willing to work and study and improve their lives.

A cash payment to the descendants of slaves is a dumb idea.
It brings up the old saying: "If you give a man a fish, he will
eat for one day. If you teach him how to fish, he will eat for
a lifetime."

Education and job opportunities are the way to go.
Not a cash payment.

[Binky]

Chris.......

I still don't see a reply about the parents of slaves selling their own children. For someone so outspoken on the subject of slavery it seems you want to be quiet now. Nothing to comment on it, eh?

That's what I thought! Your silence says it all!

[chriswallace112]

Reparations for the descendants of slaves is a ridiculous idea.
Obama would be a self-destructive idiot to go anywhere near
this issue. It's political suicide. Please don't push this issue.
We want Obama to win. If Obama even remotely hinted that
he wants to pay reparations, he would be ripped to shreds
by the right wing, and lose the election. It's a dumb idea.

A more appropriate solution would be to provide educational
and employment opportunities for low-income people so they
can pull themselves up and achieve their full potential if they
are willing to work and study and improve their lives.

A cash payment to the descendants of slaves is a dumb idea.
It brings up the old saying: "If you give a man a fish, he will
eat for one day. If you teach him how to fish, he will eat for
a lifetime."

Education and job opportunities are the way to go.
Not a cash payment.

Well finally... all I care for is a discussion about possible solutions to the problem. I definitely think that signing checks is something that not only will fall short of addressing the social ills that before the African-American community, but also are somewhat offensive to African-Americans. No check could truly encompass the racism we've experienced. Now, about education and job opportunities, this Obama has referred to (education specifically). In that they can repair race relation and inequalities we can reframe the mainstream view of reparations as being taking money from one group and giving to another to being real reparation. It would be impossible to talk about reparation without including education, something Obama has said would go much farther than tax breaks or monetary compensation. The problem is that education funding in this country has been moving away from one that includes everyone to one that allows for private schools to proliferate. School vouchers have been threatening public education in general... but to truly influence change in education, investment should be made in neighborhoods that have traditionally low income levels, where local "sub-cultures" do not emphasize getting a degree. This will repair part of the problem, the education problem, and include African-American communities that are suffering from inattention without excluding other minority or even majority communities.

In terms of job opportunities, this is much more difficult to achieve. It requires regulation of industries and reeks of racism I admit. But we must undertand that while federally, employers are required not to discriminate for any reason, they often do. Possibly, as an incentive, grants to minority businesses should a) be offered in greater numbers and b) be easier to find and attain. Furthermore, until minority small businesses are able to become more successful they should be afforded tax breaks... as soon as they attain levels that are competitive with larger companies they may be put on equal footing.

Of course, tax and monetary incentives should be limited to an agreed upon time table, otherwise our intended fairness may overreach and the practice of reparation is not to create another state of racial disparity. I never truly thought out ideas like these before this post... though somewhat antagonistic toward the reparations idea... I think it's more antagonistic towards the strict definition of reparations as being immediate monetary compensation, which I understand.

[chriswallace112]

Chris.......

I still don't see a reply about the parents of slaves selling their own children. For someone so outspoken on the subject of slavery it seems you want to be quiet now. Nothing to comment on it, eh?

That's what I thought! Your silence says it all!

Now, it's somewhat silly to suggest that one group profiting from the illegal or immoral actions of another group absolves the former of all wrongs. Yes there have been cases where parents have surrendered their children... but surrendering your children does not deny their humanity, it does not turn them into property like they eventually became at the hands of slave-owners. And I'm very sorry I cannot give automatic-rifle responses to everything, I actually work (imagine that, I'm black) and must devote most of my time to building my life as mr. Hog suggested.

I wonder Mr. Hog, is your aversion to the topic of reparations a result of believing that as a person who respects the rights of all today you have trouble reconciling that with historical injuries against groups and communities? Many libertarian friends of mine, white, black and otherwise, tend to defend their positions on the fact that we forget history and move on respecting everyone not inferfering or violating... I find this view intrguing, but cannot morally or intellectually reconcile that with the visible scars of history.

[Cat slave]

That's great! I hope he gets 90% of the white, hispanic, asian, red, yellow, blue, green, orange, flesh colored, and tanned vote too.


Be careful what you wish for!:D

[PhoneMistress]

It is pointless to discuss race issues with a generation whose time has passed. Chris, you are trying to have an intelligent conversation about an issue that only stirs emotions. They don’t get it and they never will.

Obama doesn’t have the political capital to try the current administration and that needs to happen in order for the country to heal. I doubt Obama is going to address the issue of reparations because that would be political suicide. The issue of reparations IS being addressed within the court system.
_____

I can see from your post that you don't want to address the fact that the parents of slaves sold their own children into slavery. That's how wonderful blacks were. See, even they were capable of horrific things and I can't even imagine doing that.

You have said something like this before. 1619-1865. 246 years. New African slaves were not brought into the country after 1809. Name a “black” parent who sold their child into slavery. Don’t confuse Africans with Black Americans. Note it would have to be a freed black because slaves didn’t own property. 3.5 million slaves were freed in 1865. What percentage were sold into slavery by their parents? Hint 0%. Your “fact” is misleading and has nothing to do with the issue of reparations. Quote your source.

Most of the posters here are sharing their personal opinion over a matter that Abraham Lincoln stated would have to be addressed at a later date because the country was too raw to do it in 1865.

It’s 143 years later and the best you can do is say “get over it” and “not my fault”. No matter how hardworking an individual may be everything s/he have is based on the system and the system helps some and disadvantages others. No man is an island.

Some of you seem to forget that from 1865-1965 was a period of Jim Crow. So don’t you dare take comfort in the fact that slavery ended 143 years ago. Know your history. Jim Crow ended 43 years ago.

There has never in the history of the world existed a slave society whereby a slave’s children and their children’s children were to forever be slaves.

A free ride? 13 generations of unpaid labor. Nothing about that is free.

[Binky]

You want to talk about black voting. Mayor Marion Barry of Washington DC. Busted smoking crack with a "prostitute" in a cheap dive motel, tried, convicted served jail time and re-elected as Mayor after serving his jail time. Why? Because he was black. I can't link this but you go ahead and believe what ever you want. This was a sad day for our Capital.



Oh yes! Didn't that happen in the 90's? I recall that story. Another person of power bringing a scandal to the American people. It's becoming the norm.

[Binky]

Now, it's somewhat silly to suggest that one group profiting from the illegal or immoral actions of another group absolves the former of all wrongs. Yes there have been cases where parents have surrendered their children... but surrendering your children does not deny their humanity, it does not turn them into property like they eventually became at the hands of slave-owners. And I'm very sorry I cannot give automatic-rifle responses to everything, I actually work (imagine that, I'm black) and must devote most of my time to building my life as mr. Hog suggested.

I wonder Mr. Hog, is your aversion to the topic of reparations a result of believing that as a person who respects the rights of all today you have trouble reconciling that with historical injuries against groups and communities? Many libertarian friends of mine, white, black and otherwise, tend to defend their positions on the fact that we forget history and move on respecting everyone not inferfering or violating... I find this view intrguing, but cannot morally or intellectually reconcile that with the visible scars of history.


I beg to differ. They did not "surrender their children," as you put it. But rather, they profited by "selling them." There's a HUGE difference. Well, I'm glad you are a working stiff and see the value of earning a buck. Maybe then you'll understand the reasoning behind some children being sold to slave drivers.

And speaking of slavery, women have been oppressed and used as slaves since the beginning of time all throughout the world. And in America, it's only been in the last 60 years that we've been able to "get the vote." Men were born with that right, while women had to scratch and claw to get it. Men didn't think we were smart enough to think for ourselves and make a decision to vote. It's always been about the men. Today, in various countries, women are still treated as bags of shit. Some have to "follow behind" their men. Some get only to speak when spoken to. And millions of young girls in the mid east are being vaginally mutilated and stitched closed because of men and their religous beliefs. American slavery? Please, women have been slaves centuries longer than negroes have and all we asked for was our freedom and the right to vote. Give me a freakin' break! Grow up and get some life experiences behind you.

Anyway, thanks for replying back to me. I had forgotten that you were prob'ly working. My apologies!

[Hog Trash]

It is pointless to discuss race issues with a generation whose time has passed. Chris, you are trying to have an intelligent conversation about an issue that only stirs emotions. They don’t get it and they never will.

Obama doesn’t have the political capital to try the current administration and that needs to happen in order for the country to heal. I doubt Obama is going to address the issue of reparations because that would be political suicide. The issue of reparations IS being addressed within the court system.
_____


You have said something like this before. 1619-1865. 246 years. New African slaves were not brought into the country after 1809. Name a “black” parent who sold their child into slavery. Don’t confuse Africans with Black Americans. Note it would have to be a freed black because slaves didn’t own property. 3.5 million slaves were freed in 1865. What percentage were sold into slavery by their parents? Hint 0%. Your “fact” is misleading and has nothing to do with the issue of reparations. Quote your source.

Most of the posters here are sharing their personal opinion over a matter that Abraham Lincoln stated would have to be addressed at a later date because the country was too raw to do it in 1865.

It’s 143 years later and the best you can do is say “get over it” and “not my fault”. No matter how hardworking an individual may be everything s/he have is based on the system and the system helps some and disadvantages others. No man is an island.

Some of you seem to forget that from 1865-1965 was a period of Jim Crow. So don’t you dare take comfort in the fact that slavery ended 143 years ago. Know your history. Jim Crow ended 43 years ago.

There has never in the history of the world existed a slave society whereby a slave’s children and their children’s children were to forever be slaves.

A free ride? 13 generations of unpaid labor. Nothing about that is free.

If by some miracle there was slaves still living I would not be responsible for compensating them for any past unpaid labor as they performed no labor for me so I damn sure am not going to compensate someone who did not perform said unpaid labor. I pay my bills but I damn sure ain't gonna pay someone elses. I would declare war first.

White people can not and will not be held responsible for the sins of someone else for no other reason than the color of our skin. Nor did we stand idly by and allow slavery to happen. WE WERN'T ALIVE 144 YEARS AGO. What part of that can you not grasp?

And one More thing, my generation abolished Jim Crow. What have you done lately?
We solved problems and accomplished things.

The only thing your generation seems to do is whine, bitch and cry
and your only concern is who's the cutest contestant on "American Idle".

[Cat slave]

The point is that blacks are not supporting Obama just because of the color of his skin as Hog claims. I thought my comments were pretty self explanatory.

And how do you know this?

[Cat slave]

Thats some good posting there Binky and HT! Im so glad to see others
unwilling to roll over and play dead!

[PhoneMistress]

You don’t speak for White America. And here’s a tip, there isn’t a White America.

If by some miracle there was slaves still living…

But their descendants are and they have not been reimbursed for the work that EVERY American benefited from. Do you not understand the concept of systemic? Are you not an American? And don’t give me any bull that your family arrived after 1865. They didn’t need to come if black people could own property, open a bank account, etc. How many former slaves benefited from the Homesteaders Act? Outside of Oklahoma no one. And you know what happened to that property. Tulsa? 1921? A slave does not need to walk into your house and do labor for you in order for you to benefit. You need to understand your history. Every day you walk on the backs of these Americans and tell their descendants you aren’t going to give a penny to right a wrong that was promised to be righted 143 years ago.

America has a debt that needs to be paid because the interest is unaffordable.

And one More thing, my generation abolished Jim Crow. What have you done lately? We solved problems and accomplished things.

And now you are the face of the Baby Boom Generation? Because you were born in the 1940s don’t take credit for something that people fought and died over long before you were a figment of your mother’s imagination. What have YOU done lately? What race-related issues have YOU solved? What have YOU accomplished as it concerns this interest that America pays daily?

Exactly.

This is not something that interests you personally so like most people you have done nothing. But way to take credit for your generation.

Listen friend, I don’t watch American Idol, I don’t have a lot of time for BS and I vehemently disagree with your OPINION on this matter. The difference is you’re talking and I’m doing.

[bairdi]

And how do you know this?
If skin color were the only reason that blacks support bi-racial Obama, then
your man Alan Keyes would have received much more support from the black community. How many white candidates have white people supported because of the person's skin color? The idea of preference because of skin color that you and "Hog" are trying to advance is absurd.

[Cat slave]

Oh puhleeze! THAT is absurd!

And I wish to gawd that Alan Keyes had got some traction and he doesnt get
support from his race because he is strictly by the book...by the constitution
which guarantees no one anything but the opportunity to be free and to better
oneself. Not the "right" to anyone elses money, property, job,or anything...just
the opportunity and the guarantee of freedom. Its all got a bit bastardized
and thats the trouble with much in todays world.

Guess that pretty well rules me out as a racist....Alan Keyes is the best....he
just doesnt pander and thats what gets votes. That should scare the ****
out of anyone!

[Cat slave]

You don’t speak for White America. And here’s a tip, there isn’t a White America.



But their descendants are and they have not been reimbursed for the work that EVERY American benefited from. Do you not understand the concept of systemic? Are you not an American? And don’t give me any bull that your family arrived after 1865. They didn’t need to come if black people could own property, open a bank account, etc. How many former slaves benefited from the Homesteaders Act? Outside of Oklahoma no one. And you know what happened to that property. Tulsa? 1921? A slave does not need to walk into your house and do labor for you in order for you to benefit. You need to understand your history. Every day you walk on the backs of these Americans and tell their descendants you aren’t going to give a penny to right a wrong that was promised to be righted 143 years ago.

America has a debt that needs to be paid because the interest is unaffordable.



And now you are the face of the Baby Boom Generation? Because you were born in the 1940s don’t take credit for something that people fought and died over long before you were a figment of your mother’s imagination. What have YOU done lately? What race-related issues have YOU solved? What have YOU accomplished as it concerns this interest that America pays daily?

Exactly.

This is not something that interests you personally so like most people you have done nothing. But way to take credit for your generation.

Listen friend, I don’t watch American Idol, I don’t have a lot of time for BS and I vehemently disagree with your OPINION on this matter. The difference is you’re talking and I’m doing.

This will come as a shock to most people but there really is something besides
race!!

[Hog Trash]

Because you were born in the 1940s don’t take credit for something that people fought and died over long before you were a figment of your mother’s imagination.

Exactly.

You say I cant take "credit" for something that happened before I was alive but expect me to be responsible for a debt from before my time. Not gonna happen miss PC.

My tree goes back to at least as far as the Revolutionary War and I will tell you that me nor any family member of mine has never benefited from slavery. You have bought into somebodies twisted rationale. If anything slavery hurt poor white southerners by increasing unemployment. Their were few jobs available in cotton, the number one industry and many other jobs in the southern states. Most southerners were poor and did not own land and needed jobs to survive. Many whites suffered because of slavery. Slavery benefited wealthy slave owners and no one else. Don't be fooled.

[Binky]

Oh puhleeze! THAT is absurd!

And I wish to gawd that Alan Keyes had got some traction and he doesnt get
support from his race because he is strictly by the book...by the constitution
which guarantees no one anything but the opportunity to be free and to better
oneself. Not the "right" to anyone elses money, property, job,or anything...just
the opportunity and the guarantee of freedom. Its all got a bit bastardized
and thats the trouble with much in todays world.

Guess that pretty well rules me out as a racist....Alan Keyes is the best....he
just doesnt pander and thats what gets votes. That should scare the ****
out of anyone!


I've read up on Alan Keyes and I like what I read. He doesn't seem to have a flurry of contraversy swirling around him either.

[Binky]

Thats some good posting there Binky and HT! Im so glad to see others
unwilling to roll over and play dead!


I'll be dead soon enough and I ain't rollin' over for anyone. :woohoo:

[Cat slave]

No, hes squeaky clean! A lot of people are turned off by his "delivery" and
I find it very appropriate for the gravity of the subject matter.

Hey, hes the only politician I ever donated to. First and last.
Keyes rocks!

[Cat slave]

Binky, I was talking to you....forgot to do the quote thing.

[Binky]

Binky, I was talking to you....forgot to do the quote thing.


Yep, I realized that once I began reading it. I had been snooping the net trying to find other candidates I could check out when I came across his name. He rules by comparison. I think he could handle the job and pull us out of this mess we've gotten ourselves into. He prob'ly won't win, but so far as I'm concerned, he's the best person for the job. I think he has enough experience to handle foreign affairs with tack and diplomacy, and all that involves. And all the other issues he'd be confronted with such as the economy. I bet he could get our country back on the right track.

Anyway, Alan Keyes is the one I plan on voting for. I'd rather toss my vote to a lesser candidate than to give it to one of those blockheads.

I'm 61 years old and I'd like to see someone become president that will actually straighten out our country, before I croak.

[Hog Trash]

Anyway, Alan Keyes is the one I plan on voting for. I'd rather toss my vote to a lesser candidate than to give it to one of those blockheads.

I'm 61 years old and I'd like to see someone become president that will actually straighten out our country, before I kick off and croak.

I believe Alan Keyes to be an honest man who's concern for America is sincere. The fact that he attempts to be nominated as a Republican presidential candidate is disturbing but the fact that they keep rejecting him helps to confirm my belief in his honesty. He is an extremely articulate speaker and his passion for America is contagious. If he ever ran as a third party or independent candidate I would definitely consider him.

[Binky]

I believe Alan Keyes to be an honest man who's concern for America is sincere. The fact that he attempts to be nominated as a Republican presidential candidate is disturbing but the fact that they keep rejecting him helps to confirm my belief in his honesty. He is an extremely articulate speaker and his passion for America is contagious. If he ever ran as a third party or independent candidate I would definitely consider him.


Hog Trash, he is running on the Constitution Party ticket. I've posted a link. Go check out all the info on him. There's a lot on his site, so it will take time to get through it.

[Binky]

Chris.....please go and check the link I've posted on Alan Keyes. I think you may like him as well.

[bairdi]

I believe Alan Keyes to be an honest man who's concern for America is sincere. The fact that he attempts to be nominated as a Republican presidential candidate is disturbing but the fact that they keep rejecting him helps to confirm my belief in his honesty. He is an extremely articulate speaker and his passion for America is contagious. If he ever ran as a third party or independent candidate I would definitely consider him.
So this is the big solution to the status quo??? Quit it. You guys are killing me. LMAO :lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2:

[Hog Trash]

So this is the big solution to the status quo??? Quit it. You guys are killing me. LMAO :lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2:

And your solution is to keep doing what you've always done hoping for a different outcome. Who's killing who Einstein?

[Binky]

Oh puhleeze! THAT is absurd!

And I wish to gawd that Alan Keyes had got some traction and he doesnt get
support from his race because he is strictly by the book...by the constitution
which guarantees no one anything but the opportunity to be free and to better
oneself. Not the "right" to anyone elses money, property, job,or anything...just
the opportunity and the guarantee of freedom. Its all got a bit bastardized
and thats the trouble with much in todays world.

Guess that pretty well rules me out as a racist....Alan Keyes is the best....he
just doesnt pander and thats what gets votes. That should scare the ****
out of anyone!


Yehaw! You are absolutely correct! The dems jumped on Obamas choo choo very quickly because he rolled over and said what they wanted to hear. :gossip:

[chriswallace112]

Chris.....please go and check the link I've posted on Alan Keyes. I think you may like him as well.

I've been out of town... I will check him out, though some people that I know say that he has some ideas that a tax-break as a form of reparations which is not necessarily what I have in mind. I saw him in one debate and he seems intelligent, but then again he tries to hog the spotlight a bit too much and that's something that the black community doesn't need any more of... we have enough Jacksons and Sharptons.

[chriswallace112]

Oh puhleeze! THAT is absurd!

And I wish to gawd that Alan Keyes had got some traction and he doesnt get
support from his race because he is strictly by the book...by the constitution
which guarantees no one anything but the opportunity to be free and to better
oneself. Not the "right" to anyone elses money, property, job,or anything...just
the opportunity and the guarantee of freedom. Its all got a bit bastardized
and thats the trouble with much in todays world.

Guess that pretty well rules me out as a racist....Alan Keyes is the best....he
just doesnt pander and thats what gets votes. That should scare the ****
out of anyone!

The problem with the this line of thinking is that many who want to be strictly by the book are trying to address new problems with old solutions. Some have worked, and I believe that the constitution gives us a good framework... but some are inherent to the society that we live in and only through out-of-the-box thinking and action can these problems be solved. Hence "opportunity" can be exploited, as in my opinion it has been, both in practice historically and rhetorically to deny that certain old crimes need to be addressed. If everyone had started with the same opportunity, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Furthermore, the Constitution can be amended and therefore "by the book" seems less important than by the will of the people. The trick is to balance the majority will, the diverse minority wills, and the best interest of the nation.

[Binky]

I've been out of town... I will check him out, though some people that I know say that he has some ideas that a tax-break as a form of reparations which is not necessarily what I have in mind. I saw him in one debate and he seems intelligent, but then again he tries to hog the spotlight a bit too much and that's something that the black community doesn't need any more of... we have enough Jacksons and Sharptons.




we have enough Jacksons and Sharptons.


Now that's funny! :lmao2: Well, we have our Gores and Bushes to put up with. LOL! Idiots come in all colors and creeds. Anyway, I just wanted you to glance through the info. I haven't even checked out all of it as yet because there's just so much there. I haven't read the part you mentioned as yet about the taxes. And how much does it matter whether or not we happen to agree with everything about a candidate? is it possible to agree on absolutely everything? I don't know. But judging from being in here posting all the time, I'd have to say "No." LOL!

[Cat slave]

The problem with the this line of thinking is that many who want to be strictly by the book are trying to address new problems with old solutions. Some have worked, and I believe that the constitution gives us a good framework... but some are inherent to the society that we live in and only through out-of-the-box thinking and action can these problems be solved. Hence "opportunity" can be exploited, as in my opinion it has been, both in practice historically and rhetorically to deny that certain old crimes need to be addressed. If everyone had started with the same opportunity, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Furthermore, the Constitution can be amended and therefore "by the book" seems less important than by the will of the people. The trick is to balance the majority will, the diverse minority wills, and the best interest of the nation.

I keep going back to womens issues. We were chattels far longer than black
people were owned as slaves. It all started in the "garden of eden" when
we were branded to be under the domination of males. Now I dont believe
in the "garden of eden" but a lot of people do. We were traded like farm
animals, denied property or wealth of our own and had no say in anything.
We only got the vote in the last century.

Point. There are thousands of years of abuse of women and how long and
who should pay? No one. No one needs to apologize from the floor of the
senate, pew or anywhere else. Its over. Its done. Many suffered but it
is not like that now by a long shot and will never be that way again....unless
the religion of Islam takes over in its most fundamental and extreme form.

There comes a time to get on with it and not repeat history but not foul
the present with things long done and past. I think we have a lot more on
our plates in this time of financial, economic, and political crisis.

As a women I dont want to whine endlessly about past injustices. I refuse
to be a victim or be manipulated by anyone as a pawn in a huge chess game.
But, if I wanted to, there is certainly an endless history to draw upon
beginning when the first cave man or Adam drug Eve or the first cave woman
by the hair of the head, screaming into the land of eternal subjugation.

Do you see? We need to be people working together and not clinging to
shadows of the past with the finger of blame always pointing outward.
Lets just do it!

As a woman I say it is certainly to get over it and get on with it

[Binky]

I keep going back to womens issues. We were chattels far longer than black
people were owned as slaves. It all started in the "garden of eden" when
we were branded to be under the domination of males. Now I dont believe
in the "garden of eden" but a lot of people do. We were traded like farm
animals, denied property or wealth of our own and had no say in anything.
We only got the vote in the last century.

Point. There are thousands of years of abuse of women and how long and
who should pay? No one. No one needs to apologize from the floor of the
senate, pew or anywhere else. Its over. Its done. Many suffered but it
is not like that now by a long shot and will never be that way again....unless
the religion of Islam takes over in its most fundamental and extreme form.

There comes a time to get on with it and not repeat history but not foul
the present with things long done and past. I think we have a lot more on
our plates in this time of financial, economic, and political crisis.

As a women I dont want to whine endlessly about past injustices. I refuse
to be a victim or be manipulated by anyone as a pawn in a huge chess game.
But, if I wanted to, there is certainly an endless history to draw upon
beginning when the first cave man or Adam drug Eve or the first cave woman
by the hair of the head, screaming into the land of eternal subjugation.

Do you see? We need to be people working together and not clinging to
shadows of the past with the finger of blame always pointing outward.
Lets just do it!

As a woman I say it is certainly to get over it and get on with it


I agree with you on this. Women have certainly been oppressed and abused centuries before blacks were slaves. Even tho' we've gotten the vote we are still looked upon by a lot of men as second class citizens. We're constantly trying to prove that we can compete with men in the work force.

I think far too much time is wasted on the past. It's over and done with. But most people are comforted by hanging around and taking up residence in it. Not me! I'd much rather move on and learn other things and do my best to maintain a positive attitude. But when so much negativity is tossed about like a basketball, it's difficult to do so.

I'm afraid this something that will never end.

[Cat slave]

Well, you know how they say "all good things come to an end"?
Guess this isnt one of them!

I dont know how anyone, race, gender or religion can hold a grudge for so long.
They are letting the distant past color their present and future. Personally
it takes energy to hold a grudge and I dont have energy to waste on someone
elses agenda....I have my own, things that are here and now and these things
will create my future and my causes, which are animals and politics, family,
community and helping people who need some help like little old people (older
than me:D ) who need help to get by.

It accomplishes nothing to dwell on the past and let it form your present and
future. Its just so far down the list I dont know if its even on there now!

[chriswallace112]

I keep going back to womens issues. We were chattels far longer than black
people were owned as slaves. It all started in the "garden of eden" when
we were branded to be under the domination of males. Now I dont believe
in the "garden of eden" but a lot of people do. We were traded like farm
animals, denied property or wealth of our own and had no say in anything.
We only got the vote in the last century.

Point. There are thousands of years of abuse of women and how long and
who should pay? No one. No one needs to apologize from the floor of the
senate, pew or anywhere else. Its over. Its done. Many suffered but it
is not like that now by a long shot and will never be that way again....unless
the religion of Islam takes over in its most fundamental and extreme form.

There comes a time to get on with it and not repeat history but not foul
the present with things long done and past. I think we have a lot more on
our plates in this time of financial, economic, and political crisis.

As a women I dont want to whine endlessly about past injustices. I refuse
to be a victim or be manipulated by anyone as a pawn in a huge chess game.
But, if I wanted to, there is certainly an endless history to draw upon
beginning when the first cave man or Adam drug Eve or the first cave woman
by the hair of the head, screaming into the land of eternal subjugation.

Do you see? We need to be people working together and not clinging to
shadows of the past with the finger of blame always pointing outward.
Lets just do it!

As a woman I say it is certainly to get over it and get on with it

Given that I am not as acquainted with women's struggles as I am about African-American movements, I try to limit my commentary on the injustices perpetrated against women. Personally, I was taught to respect everyone as individuals, men and women alike... after fighting for our rights for so long, we can't just turn around and discriminate against anyone.

On that note, here goes: it seems that men are the historical oppressors of women. How to right this wrong? My argument for reparations is different from this problem because the oppressors were not a government, but in fact were some/all men. How do we address women's suffrage? I think in the same way I approach African-American suffrage: get our rights and move forward. The vote itself is the weapon we can use to destroy past injustices by making sure that the old regimes that produced this power structure never come to power again.

In terms of economic standing, it gets trickier for women... while blacks were completely excluded from reaping any benefits... many married women would enjoy residual benefits from men's income... of course, women had obstacles in setting up their own businesses and being treated as equals. These conditions make me think that reparations in the same form as blacks should receive don't apply to the women's issue. It seems to be more of a social problem in the modern day...

Of course I am overlooking older societies that did treat women as property, some still do in fact, but I want to focus on this country. I think the question comes down to the sons... as a son, knowing that your father, grandfather, etc. all abused and oppressed your mother, grandmother, etc. what should you do? I think the first step is respect women and the second is include them more fully as equals in society... a son can share his wealth with his family. These are just thoughts of mine... don't know if I'm right or wrong... but this seems trickier than the whole reparations issue... I guess because it's an older problem

[Cat slave]

This shouldnt be a case of who suffered the longest or the worst and how
that should be addressed by we who are here versus those who are gone.

I think the "residual benefits" that women enjoyed or experienced is not
understood clearly. Women have been dominated since time began due
to the sheer strength of males. Size has always mattered. It was necessary
to have a "provider" to insure the survival of the species and that was best
fulfilled by the male. The difference in physical strength also set up the
pattern of domination. Well, I wander from the thread dont I?

OK, I still say what is no more should not impact the present or future.
We are supposed to learn and progress and that has taken place in both
the womens and black movements.

Guilt is a useless emotion and serves no one. Many libruls:D embrace
"guilt" for reasons of the claim that they "care more", are more enlightened
and that is a crock! I see no reason for guilt as I had no control over what
anyone did many decades ago. You as a man should feel no guilt regarding
the way women have been treated....in the past. It only matters now
and in the future. That is all that anyone can change or do anything
about.

We are not going to see eye to eye on this but I do appreciate your
civilized responses......that is frequently absent in forums that are usually
filled with condescension and name calling when differences of opinion
arise.

This has been interesting.