Minimum Wage and Estate Tax

[SirMoby]

The democrats wants to raise the minimum wage which hasn't been increased in 15 years (the longest time since it was created). However, the republicans agreed but only by adding the removal of the estate tax to the bill.

Basically if you vote to raise minimum wage on America's poorest earners you also have to vote on cutting taxes for America's richest families.

A lot of money has been spent on cutting taxes for approximately 7,500 families. How can congress spend so much time focusing just on these 7,500 families and still keep their jobs?

[amadman]

Sounds like a good trade off to me. Throw them a bone. There are plenty of wolves when someone dies.

[NobleSavage]

How can congress spend so much time focusing just on these 7,500 families and still keep their jobs?

Because it is part of the American mythos, the Horatio Alger ideology, that in America if you work hard one day you can be rich too.

A good read: The rich, the poor and the growing gap between them. (http://www.economist.com/world/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7055911)

[NobleSavage]

The democrats wants to raise the minimum wage which hasn't been increased in 15 years

It's interesting to compare that fact to the Congresional salaries which have more than doubled in the same time period.

http://www.thecapitol.net/FAQ/payandperqs.htm

[Tommy]

I say lets tie the Minimum wage to the salarys and benifits of Congress

they get a 2% raise the minumim wage goes up 2%

or maybe we should just pay congress the Minumim wage

[SirMoby]

I say lets tie the Minimum wage to the salarys and benifits of Congress

they get a 2% raise the minumim wage goes up 2%

or maybe we should just pay congress the Minumim wage
Then it would double every few years. :)

[Tommy]

This is one of the issues that make me hate the republicians

I grew up very poor a couple dollars was a big deal

rich greedy pricks that dont know what its like to do without

and then they are so shocked that women want to get abortions

Gee.... I wonder why they would choose abortion when they are making 5.15 an hour

at 5.15 an hour they must have put some money away to live on when they can no longer work for 2 or 3 months

never mind that the medicial bills are gonna run around 25k

[SirMoby]

Tommy, they are being lead by a higher power. God told George Dubya Bush that before he helped the poorest in America he should first ensure that those born into financial wealth should keep it for all eternity.

[Kinky Jones]

hey man if you wanna get yours I gots ta get mine too... don't worry our rich friends, we are just "shifting" the money around, you aren't gonna lose any :thumbsup:

[SirMoby]

Looks like bill got shot down in the Senate. About 250,000 Americans over the age of 25 could have used the increase in wages but I only if the 7,500 richest families get a tax cut.

I can understand not passing the minimum wage bill for those that believe people will loose jobs. How can you possibly combine these two issues with a clear conscience? Are the Republicans really the followers of Jesus?

[docholly]

7500 loaves and fishes will feed the 250K that would have been affected by the change.. :lmao2:

Nevada is one of the few states that still adheres to the federal minimum wage.. i think there are 14 all together. Amazingly enough in Nov of 2004, the voting public voted down an increase. All the major employers here ran ad campaigns saying that if minimum wage was raised it would affect the tips of servers, valets, dealers etc .. all who make minimum wage and rely on tips.

Well its coming up for a vote again this november and once again they are rolling out those ads. While yes the biggest employers here in Nevada are the casinos, for every 1 job created by a casino.. 10 other jobs are created outside the gaming industry --mainly service postions.

So you'd think these sheeple would realize that 36 other states have job growth and a raised minimum wage. but no they continue to listen to tho doomsday forcasters who say tourists will no longer come to Vegas if we raise minimum wage. :lmao2:

[Tommy]

I am allways shocked by the stupidity of the americian people

[dana]

This is one of the issues that make me hate the republicians


...that one of the greatest expansions of the US economy was after WWII and during the 1950's when the top bracket of the Estate Tax was somewhere around 91% and union membership was around 30%. During that time, the US middle class was created by labor, not wealth. In fact, wealth comes from labor, not assets and bottom up wealth creation lifts everybody, including the rich.

In those jurisdictions where the minimum wage is higher, the economy expands and jobs are created. The glut of labor in the US is intentional as is the forced decline of the unions, both of which lower wages and increase unearned income, not just profits.

Those currently in this administration leading the charge against the entire middle class are NOT Republicans. Reid, Clinton (either one), Biden, Leiberman, and many other so called "Centrists" are Republicans, as are the other members of the DLC. The illegitimate man-child and his cabal occupying the WH are by-the-book Fascists, who Mussolini said should be more properly called Corporatists.

The are some actual Democrats in Congress, Dingle, Conyers, Kennedy, Murry, and Leahy come to mind but there are several others. As for real Republicans, Hagel, Snowe, Warner, including a few others, but not many. Shows one how far the US has moved to the Right.

If average people don't pay attention to those they elect, on any level, those same elected will become corrupt, period. Good person or not, just the way we elect our "leaders" is itself corrupting. The amount of money available to these people would corrupt most of us to one degree or another.

[Tommy]

Hi Dana
welcome to the board and thank you for posting :)

I have read your post a few times and am having trouble understanding it

the economy took off after WWII for a hundred reasons
Americans had an enormous amount of faith in their country and the dollar

are you saying Bush isn't a real Republican ??

[SirMoby]

are you saying Bush isn't a real Republican ??
He certianly doesn't hold many true Republican values. The Reps still compain about democratic spending and big government but no dem in history has done what Dubya has done.

[dana]

Hi Dana
welcome to the board and thank you for posting :)

Thank you.

I have read your post a few times and am having trouble understanding it

the economy took off after WWII for a hundred reasons
Americans had an enormous amount of faith in their country and the dollar

What's not to understand? The economy did not take off for a hundred reasons. It just took off. It was an educated labor pool and living wages which fed the economy. It wasn't faith in the dollar either, this country had leadership which cared and was effective for all the people. From Roosevelt to Kennedy, our leaders helped the bottom up creation of wealth I spoke of. Social programs, although not perfect, helped to lift millions out of poverty and into a viable workforce. Business became a partner with labor and both shared in that wealth creation. Together they created a national marketplace filled with people with disposable income and willing to spend it to move themselves into a better life.

are you saying Bush isn't a real Republican ??

Yes.

I repeat:

Those currently in this administration leading the charge against the entire middle class are NOT Republicans. Reid, Clinton (either one), Biden, Leiberman, and many other so called "Centrists" are Republicans, as are the other members of the DLC. The illegitimate man-child and his cabal occupying the WH are by-the-book Fascists, who Mussolini said should be more properly called Corporatists.

[boortzland]

The democrats wants to raise the minimum wage which hasn't been increased in 15 years (the longest time since it was created). However, the republicans agreed but only by adding the removal of the estate tax to the bill.

Basically if you vote to raise minimum wage on America's poorest earners you also have to vote on cutting taxes for America's richest families.

A lot of money has been spent on cutting taxes for approximately 7,500 families. How can congress spend so much time focusing just on these 7,500 families and still keep their jobs?

It is not a proper function of our government to interfere with the employer/ employee relationship as it relates to wages.

They call it minimum wage because it requires the minimum skill, minimum commitment, minimum dependability, and the vast majority of minimum wage earners are high school teens. The minimum wage is not meant to be able to support a household. As free Americans, it is our responsibility to work on our skills, education, how we present ourselves to prospective employers, etc, so that we can work our way up.

Wages are as much a result of suppply and demand , as are gas prices. There is a greater supply of people who can cook french fries and take out the trash, but how many people can run a multi-national corporation.

As for those class warfare folks, "The rich keep doing the things that made them Rich, and the poor keep doing what made them poor".

[SirMoby]

It is not a proper function of our government to interfere with the employer/ employee relationship as it relates to wages.
Doesn't history show different?

Minimum wage might be based on supply and demand if this administration was enforcing immigration laws and the laws involving employers hiring illegal aliens and not paying taxes.

In the past the USA government has always needed to make laws involving the employer/employee relationship. Why would that change today?

While sometimes the poor just seem to stay poor many don't have the options that you think. What about the poeple that have to quit school in order to care for sick relatives? What about those that just don't have high mental capacities. What about the elderly?

[Lunatic Fringe]

The problem is, is that we have "only" a two party system. They both are sucking us dry. I vote in every election possible, from fed to my freakin' city block. I don't have any say, because I vote for the "least" miserable bastard on the ballot. All he/she gives a shit about is getting elected. Once that happens, constituents are nothing but flys that needed swat. How about we have at the very least, 7 more parties?

[Mr. Blue]

I have a question:

How does America compete with countries like China, India, etc, when their labor is so cheap? We can't even compete now against them with the minimum wage set at 5.15

Now, if a company finds themselves suddenly paying more per worker...wouldn't outsourcing be the next logical step? You look at most telemarketing has been outsourced to Indian. The textile industry is pretty much dead in the U.S. because of cheap labor abroad. The Auto Industry, because they really got screwed on some labor contracts, are basically floundering.

How do we prevent companies from outsourcing and dumping the minimum wage workers here for factories abroad? Tariffs? Government subsidies? It's not an easy call as both those things will have a cause and effect type response.

[docholly]

are you saying Bush isn't a real Republican ??

He is absolutely NOT a real Republican..ok not a real republican as the party was based on. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Republican_Party) is a pretty interesting read from Wiki regarding the history of the party and how it evolved over the last 150 years.

[Tommy]

The problem is, is that we have "only" a two party system. They both are sucking us dry. I vote in every election possible, from fed to my freakin' city block. I don't have any say, because I vote for the "least" miserable bastard on the ballot. All he/she gives a shit about is getting elected. Once that happens, constituents are nothing but flys that needed swat. How about we have at the very least, 7 more parties?

Hi Lunatic Fringe
Welcome to the board :)

I was thinking about this just just last night

if we had 4 big party's it might remove the constant partisan BS
and attacks

and competition always favors the consumer

I started thinking maybe this is the fault of the American
Voters. They see these politicians playing games, attack ads, false campaign promises, spinning information etc etc and they keep voting for them

I always hear people saying the little guy never catches a break
maybe that's because the little guy never gives a break

he always votes for someone from the big money Republican or Democrat party, never giving somebody from one the smaller party's the time of day

we run to best buy and walmart for stuff never even considering a little store like Murphy and Sons appliances

I always thought this country's problems are the politicians fault
the Republicans or the Democrats, the Lobbyists

but ya know what, its the voters fault, Mine and yours

[Kinky Jones]

I always thought this country's problems are the politicians fault
the Republicans or the Democrats, the Lobbyists

but ya know what, its the voters fault, Mine and yours

yeah the voice of the American people is pretty silent lately, you could almost hear it if you listened close when the ports deal got nixoned but it has grown quiet again... i'm pretty much ignoring everything going on in politics until after the elections coming up to see what America is gonna do, vote party lines or vote for themselves :confused:

[Kinky Jones]

if we had 4 big party's it might remove the constant partisan BS
and attacks

and competition always favors the consumer

I think we need to get rid of all parties... as long as you have at least two different "sides" for people to take then you are always gonna have the constant fighting and BS... politics has been made into a giant game where each team lie there asses off to get elected and then do whatever the hell they want once in office...

but that is never ever gonna happen so... I think we need some fresh options in the political party scene... the two big players are the worst two options right now and the smaller options all have too much stink on them from both of the big parties making sure they fail miserably in getting their message out...

somebody needs to found a new party and bring the focus back to taking care of real issues that affect everyday Amercian citizens and making them the forefront of the party, where what is best for the party is also amazingly best for the people... run on the thoery of bettering the world thru bettering America instead of whatever you wanna call what we are doing now, and bring the focus of homeland American politics back to the real issues we need to solve at home... like gay marriage, abortion, and voting themselves pay raises :lmao2:

[boortzland]

Kinky, I actually agree with most of your last post. The problem is, we genearlly gravitate towards folks who agree with our views. There will always be opposing views, and no matter what they call the parties, there will always be at least 2 groups. Folks move to the larger groups because the smaller groups cant get their word out. I'm sure now, the internet can influence that.

I know the Founding Fathers set up this system anticipating the conflicts. And when there is a stalemate, nothing gets done...but that in itself can be good.
My only disappointment with 'W' is he talked about reducing the size of government. He gave us the Tax Cut he promised, but didnt follow up with any reduction in the size of government. He cant do that on his own, but the Republicans, got in, and now they are spending like drunken sailors, just like the Dems.
We just have to turn them out on their ears each election until they get the message, but again, we have to have enough like minded folks voting with us to get anything done.

[Kinky Jones]

Kinky, I actually agree with most of your last post. The problem is, we genearlly gravitate towards folks who agree with our views. There will always be opposing views, and no matter what they call the parties, there will always be at least 2 groups. Folks move to the larger groups because the smaller groups cant get their word out. I'm sure now, the internet can influence that.

I know the Founding Fathers set up this system anticipating the conflicts. And when there is a stalemate, nothing gets done...but that in itself can be good.
My only disappointment with 'W' is he talked about reducing the size of government. He gave us the Tax Cut he promised, but didnt follow up with any reduction in the size of government. He cant do that on his own, but the Republicans, got in, and now they are spending like drunken sailors, just like the Dems.
We just have to turn them out on their ears each election until they get the message, but again, we have to have enough like minded folks voting with us to get anything done.

I would much rather have folks gravitate towards the politicians they are electing, not the party they are affiliated with...

do you really think that the founding fathers had any idea whatsoever of what the world is like right now? our sytem is archaic and needs a complete overhaul to ever be affective

I am simply amazed that you can honestly say that is your only gripe with dubya?? and that those tax cuts did anything to help the average family for more than a month?? they give even more money to the wealthy and a tiny bit to you and you are happy? people are still buying into the trickle down stuff? and how about the "war on terror"? that is going swimmingly also? peace in the middle east is going good also then right? how about trying to change the US Constitution into a message of hate against gay citizens?? not a problem but if I say the "F" word you question my credibility? :D

[boortzland]

I would much rather have folks gravitate towards the politicians they are electing, not the party they are affiliated with...

do you really think that the founding fathers had any idea whatsoever of what the world is like right now? our sytem is archaic and needs a complete overhaul to ever be affective

I am simply amazed that you can honestly say that is your only gripe with dubya?? and that those tax cuts did anything to help the average family for more than a month?? they give even more money to the wealthy and a tiny bit to you and you are happy? people are still buying into the trickle down stuff? and how about the "war on terror"? that is going swimmingly also? peace in the middle east is going good also then right? how about trying to change the US Constitution into a message of hate against gay citizens?? not a problem but if I say the "F" word you question my credibility? :D

You could just move!

Yes i have a problem with any tax system that punishes acheivement. Thats why I continue to support The FairTax plan. The problem with wealth envy is that people always say "You're giving tax cuts to the rich", but the problem with that premise is, the money is ours, not the governments to decide who can keep more or less of their own money, reguardless of their income, class, status, or any other designation.

[Kinky Jones]

You could just move!

Yes i have a problem with any tax system that punishes acheivement. Thats why I continue to support The FairTax plan. The problem with wealth envy is that people always say "You're giving tax cuts to the rich", but the problem with that premise is, the money is ours, not the governments to decide who can keep more or less of their own money, reguardless of their income, class, status, or any other designation.

way to not answer one single question i asked you :thumbsup:

and I really hate to burst you bubble with your Fair Tax idea, it has been tried over and over for years with many different names and there still isnt a chance in hell it will happen because it WOULD give Americans contol over their own money. You will have to remove 90% of our current politicians if you ever want a chance at it. I believe you said bush would look at it? LOL he is wayyy too busy promoting freedom and democracy thru war to worry about actually giving the people some things that will be good for us. You can't seriously think that with an 11 trillion dollar national debt that the gov't is gonna give up all that money?


havent you ever heard of the flat tax ideas? that were all laughed off the political playing feild over and over? by the Dems and the Reps both

[boortzland]

The flat tax is nothing like the Fairtax, and the difference is the Fairtax is growing from the "grassroots" and will eventually get passed. You need to check it out.

Since the Fairtax would generate the same amount of revenue the government is recieving now, the deficit & national debt are non-issues.

Besides, when people start getting their gross check, they will spend more, thus generating even more revenue.

[Kinky Jones]

I hope your right and it does get passed but I don't share your optimism when it comes to the gov't giving me any more money...

so what are the differences between all the old flat tax proposals and the fair tax? they seem to me to look the same from the outside but I have not looked into it, i will go and check out the info you posted :thumbsup:

edit: i'll answer my own question here is a handy danday pdf file comparison (http://pafairtax.org/resrcs/FlatTaxFairTaxComparison.pdf)

[boortzland]

I'm glad you found that. I went to a rally 5 years ago when that chart you posted was presented. John Linder, Dick Armey, Billy Touzan, Neal Boortz, Newt Gingrich. It was the rally that really got the ball rolling for public support. When you exlain it to folks..without adding any political spin..or telling them who proposed it, most folks want to know more. I'm out there blogging to help promote the plan. No one asked me to, I just think it would make all of our lives better, and keep uncle Sam happy too, except for those who want to use tax policy to buy votes or reward and/or punish segments of society.
I'll get any info you guys need. If you have not seen the discussion, look for the string called "Get your whole paycheck with no tax"

[SirMoby]

edit: i'll answer my own question here is a handy danday pdf file comparison (http://pafairtax.org/resrcs/FlatTaxFairTaxComparison.pdf)
Looking at that chart makes it painfully obvious that this idea has a snow cone's chance in hell of government approval.

Real Issues

Tax evasion has been a great way to go after drug dealers.

It also removes many incentives that can be used to help fledgling industries and promote new technologies through tax breaks. Maybe cutting taxes on the purchase of some new things. Like cars that get 40+ MPG can be purchased at a lower tax rate then 12 MPG guzzlers.

Corruption Issues

The IRS has been used as a tool since the Nixon administration to attack political opponents.

This would make the size of the US government smaller, something that the current administration is strongly against. They created big government now they're not going to let it go easily.

It removes pork and no time in our history has pork been such a massive business.

The largest corporations such as Walmart make huge profits from moving manufacturing over seas and then taking advantage of imports. They will be happy to spend $ Billions to make sure that those jobs do NOT come back to American workers. They basically own the current administration and that's not going to change any time soon.

[boortzland]

Looking at that chart makes it painfully obvious that this idea has a snow cone's chance in hell of government approval.

Real Issues

Tax evasion has been a great way to go after drug dealers.

It also removes many incentives that can be used to help fledgling industries and promote new technologies through tax breaks. Maybe cutting taxes on the purchase of some new things. Like cars that get 40+ MPG can be purchased at a lower tax rate then 12 MPG guzzlers.

Corruption Issues

The IRS has been used as a tool since the Nixon administration to attack political opponents.

This would make the size of the US government smaller, something that the current administration is strongly against. They created big government now they're not going to let it go easily.

It removes pork and no time in our history has pork been such a massive business.

The largest corporations such as Walmart make huge profits from moving manufacturing over seas and then taking advantage of imports. They will be happy to spend $ Billions to make sure that those jobs do NOT come back to American workers. They basically own the current administration and that's not going to change any time soon.

If it passes, it would be the single largest transfer of power from the government to the people in history. It is worth fighting for, even if it taxs a while to get done.

[SirMoby]

If it passes, it would be the single largest transfer of power from the government to the people in history. It is worth fighting for, even if it taxs a while to get done.
I can't argue with you on that but I think it would require a complete rework of government. In order for politicians to give up this huge source of wealth we would need to find another source of wealth for them. Unfortunately, greed would only make them want to keep both sources.

[boortzland]

I can't argue with you on that but I think it would require a complete rework of government. In order for politicians to give up this huge source of wealth we would need to find another source of wealth for them. Unfortunately, greed would only make them want to keep both sources.

You mentioned Walmart. Walmart has already said that if the FairTax is passed the will lower their prices by 23% across the board. That would force the hand of their competitors to follow suit or give up market share.

Walmart has one philosophy, sell good products at the cheapest price. And, if you build it they will come. One of the biggest problems we have in competing American products and services is the labor unions. The price of American Labor has driven our product prices so high that WE wont even buy them. Thats why the foreign cars, electronics, and other things do so well here. They come in with superior products at cheaper prices, and we buy them.
I dont pretend to have all of the solutions, but I do know that unions have done more damage in the last 50 years than good. Sure, its been good for the toothless alcoholics than can run a welder, or glue a windsheild. (I speak from experience. My dad was a union goon for UAW / AFLCIO at GM for 40 years). But with the over inflated paychecks & benefits, come higher prices that the average American can and will not pay.

I always swore I would always buy American out of some sense of loyalty, but, for the 1st time in 2005 i bought a Honda CRV. It was $4500 cheaper than the Ford Escape, and the 4cly had more power than the Ford V6. It didnt help that Ford would not work with me on my trade value like Honda did. Also, i did some back ground investigating and over 3-4 year periods the Honda maintained much more resale value than did the Ford.

Supply and demand should set wages, and prices, not unions or government regulations. When we interfere with the free market, we become more vulnerable to the foreign competition.