PDA

View Full Version : I agree with Rangel - we need to start a draft immediately.



Bill
11-20-2006, 08:00 PM
He's right, you know. Everything he's sayin'.

We wanted this war, we need the soldiers, the only fair way to get them is to start drafting.

With absolutely no exceptions. No college, no medical, no nothing. If you got a hernia you can serve in logistics.

Even if we get out of Iraq, we should start a draft again, so that everyone fairly takes the chance of being selected to defend the country.

If they serve, they should get money for college or other education.

Moby
11-20-2006, 08:19 PM
There are many reasons why a draft is a good thing. The 2 main reasons are that people are a little more cautious with war when their own sons and daughters may have to go and you get a better selection of soldiers.

We're also running our troops pretty thin right now and we need to rotate those soldiers out of their and gear up for another needless war that Cheney will get us into.

The reps are out but PNAC still holds the purse strings.

Betty Blowtorch
11-21-2006, 12:05 AM
There are many reasons why a draft is a good thing.
The 2 main reasons are that people are a little more
cautious with war when their own sons and daughters
may have to go...
I've seen no evidence that a draft makes a hawkish regime
more cautious about getting involved in a war.

Just the opposite. It provides more soldiers for the cause
and more meat for the meatgrinder.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7530/militarycemetery2lb0.jpg

The draft resulted in 56,000 U.S. deaths in Vietnam.
Would you like to see an equal number of deaths in
Iraq or Iran or any other country Bush and Cheney
want to invade?

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/4513/militaryfuneral2ny4.jpg

If you like seeing lots of flag-draped caskets,
the draft is the perfect way to achieve it.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2043/militaryfuneraluy8.png




We're also running our troops pretty thin right now
and we need to rotate those soldiers out of there
and gear up for another needless war that Cheney
will get us into.
Instead of gearing up for another needless war,
why don't we NOT?

The only thing holding back Bush and Cheney from
further military misadventures is the lack of troops.
A draft would give them the ability to cause more
deaths and do more damage.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2627/militaryfuneral3cr0.jpg

Here's a simple test to determine if the draft is
really a good idea: anyone who advocates the draft
should be willing to stand first in line to be shipped off
to Iraq or Iran or wherever Bush and Cheney want to
send them.

If you're not willing to pick up an M-16 and go to Iraq,
then you're just volunteering other people to be forced
to go there against their will.

Rangel is an idiot. The last time he introduced a bill
to institute a draft, it was massacred 402 to 2.
He should do something better with his time.

Linkster
11-21-2006, 01:03 AM
Interesting - although it would be different to see the immediate uprising and revolt as families realize that women will be drafted as well as men if it were instituted - Im sure there are a good percentage of moms and dads out there that would do the same thing a bunch of them did back in the 60s - and finally speak out if they can find the remote to turn off the tv for a few minutes

Kinky Jones
11-21-2006, 05:04 AM
Rangel is an idiot. The last time he introduced a bill
to institute a draft, it was massacred 402 to 2.
He should do something better with his time.

he is far from an idiot, he is compelling the slow acting American citizens to start thinking and voicing their opinions about the war... mention "the draft" and the average citizen that doesn't give two shits about what is going on in Iraq (and most of them don't unless they or someone close to them has been involved in the current or a prior conflict) starts to think a bit more, maybe they or their family might be the one to die next, and if you start forcing people to die they get mighty angry mighty fast, you can try to sway American thinking but if you force it on us we will not take it....

the facts that are coming out about just how small our modern quick and fast acting military really is is pretty scary to me (someody will jump in and blame the Blues for our low all around troop levels but it is the Reds and Rummy's idea to use a smaller, faster force in the modern age, and don't forget that the Reds controlled Congress in the Clinton era)... without looking up and posting the numbers right now but pulling them from short term memory:

1.4 million active?
500k combat trained ground forces
390k of those already accounted for (IE not available not matter what unless the mainland is under attack buy a true military force)

so basically we have a revolving door of roughly the same troop level, we cannot sustain any more than we are (20k bump up coming? and that is the max we can get anytime soon)

we are running pretty thin on ground troops, we have been staying the course becuase our only other option would be to leave... and the rhetoric they are still spewing that our troop level is fine and our recruiting and re-enlist numbers are off the charts really doesn't hold water, even with the extremely lax standards we now have in place for new recruits, so what else can we do? and when you factor in that alot of our brave men and women will be going back for a second and third tour, and alot more are being held there above and beyond their call of duty we really need to find a way to take the burden off our troops already doing their best :-(

Rangel is right that we as a nation, a nation in which a majority supported this war, must take responsibility for it, not just listen to the Reds that everything is going just fine like we have had to do for the last few years... it is the Blues job to stir up shit and come up with different things to try, if they weren't doing it they would be just as bad as the Reds on the war issues

stefan segal
11-22-2006, 01:03 PM
Kinky Jones....My hat is off to you...very astute take on the situation

Stefan

Abnormalia
11-22-2006, 01:38 PM
If I get drafted I hope they at least make me a sniper.


I'm all fired up again. When do we vote on this draft thing? Tomorrow I hope!

Tommy
11-22-2006, 02:35 PM
are you guys freakin nuts ??? :disbelief:

has anyone thought about the downsides of having more troops in iraq ???


more troops cost more money

double the troops and you can double what we are spending on this war

double the troops in Iraq and you will double the body count
maybe more then double it

double the arms and legs blown off
double the money for haliburton

Bill
11-22-2006, 03:35 PM
America wanted war.

If you want war, you gotta pay the piper.

And way worse wars than this are coming this century - we half ruined our military with iraq, but all the problems are far worse now than before the invasions of the last five years.

We're a toothless tiger now. The best we can do is threaten to use nukes, or maybe do a little "shock and awe" that is showy but militarily useless.

America wanted this war, they were behind bushie by an overwhelming 80%.

If we want to stay on top of an increasingly pissed off world, we need to rebuild our military.

Either that, or give up, and let asia rule the planet.

Moby
11-22-2006, 05:30 PM
I don't want a draft to increase the number of troops in Iraq. I want a draft so that the average American has a stake in the war.

Right now most of the troops come from poor homes without much influence in the political system.

You get a couple of Fox News executives with family members in Iraq and I bet the news will change.

You get a couple of lawyers with off spring in Iraq and I bet you get more calls for Haliburton to stop serving spoiled food and tainted water.

You get a few church leaders with friends and family in Iraq and they'll start preaching Jesus's words of peace again.

I want the draft so that every American can actually have something to loose by going to war. I want it so that people will be more cautious the next time someone wants to go to war when the world says "NO".

We need to swap out the troops in Iraq now. They've been there too long but we have no reserves to call up. Right now if a real threat hot America we could not respond with ground troops because we don't have any.

Linkster
11-22-2006, 05:45 PM
Tommy - the spending isnt gonna stop - we've already spent more than we did in the whole vietnam war (adjusted for inflation of course) - and are well on our way to what we spent in WWII.
The contractors arent going away and they are the real cost - soldiers barely cost anything - a few tens of thousands in training and theyre good to go.

I totally agree that the draft needs to come in although based on what happened back during Vietnam - its not going to change the demographics of who gets called up - back then it was still the poor and middle classes that ended up over there - the rich folk got waivers from their political friends - remember Pres Bush?

Bill
11-22-2006, 08:31 PM
the rich folk got waivers from their political friends - remember Pres Bush?

That's why I said it should be a "no exceptions" draft.

It might be naive to think america could create a fair draft, but in theory it should be possible. Just make it transparent. Make sure it's not done privately. Intense and continuous oversight.

I don't beleive we will do it, that is, a draft, america has no guts anymore, it's all fake terror and anger and running around like sitcom girls. It's safer to pay the poor the same amount we pay the lowest level of government clerks to pretend to be "professional soldiers".

Another possibility is paying better, but that will take longer.

Now, maybe my basic assumption, which is that our army in now in pretty bad shape, is wrong, and we don't need to repair anything thru something as harsh as a draft.

Suppose the Sauds were overthrown? Would we have a military that could prevent our largest oil ally with a working oil infrastructure from becoming a Sunni Iran, a Theo-state that hated the US?

I don't think we could do a thing but threaten to use nukes. And nukes are useless in 4th generation war.

Tommy
11-23-2006, 11:10 AM
we could make Iraq the 51st state

that would solve some problems and create a bunch more

it would piss off alqaida

stefan segal
11-23-2006, 03:42 PM
I don't want a draft to increase the number of troops in Iraq. I want a draft so that the average American has a stake in the war.

Right now most of the troops come from poor homes without much influence in the political system.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moby, I agree with you as far as the above, but I don't agree with an open draft as we historically understand it.

I think all those draft age kids from homes suffering from overwhelming debt, like mortages (by % of yearly income)student loans, ongoing medical costs, families supporting physically and mentally infirmed, etc. should all recieve an autimatic hardship deferrment.

Tip the scales with gusto...just the way repugs have shown us in their precluding dem voters from the polls.

If this were done...I would bet better than even money, there wouldn't be on american left in Iraq...viola....no draft necessary.

Stefan

Caskey_91
02-14-2007, 07:23 PM
He's right, you know. Everything he's sayin'.

We wanted this war, we need the soldiers, the only fair way to get them is to start drafting.

With absolutely no exceptions. No college, no medical, no nothing. If you got a hernia you can serve in logistics.

Even if we get out of Iraq, we should start a draft again, so that everyone fairly takes the chance of being selected to defend the country.

If they serve, they should get money for college or other education.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment. Not exactly everyone wanted this war. I sure as hell didn't want it and i'd wish we'd get the hell out of it. It's just another Vietnam that's all it is.

Also whever you serve the Armed Forces you are given money for schooling no matter what due to the G.I Bill. That is the big thing that the recruiters at the High School try to nail us, that and the new singing bonuses they now offer.

Also with the medical, say someone has a very severe medical issue should they still serve?

Mr. Blue
02-15-2007, 12:59 PM
He's right, you know. Everything he's sayin'.

We wanted this war, we need the soldiers, the only fair way to get them is to start drafting

The only fair way? The soldiers of the U.S. military volunteered, they chose it as a career, and at times I wonder why everyone makes it like they were forced into the military.

Secondly, people that make it like we wouldn't go to war just because of the draft is just making a ridiculous assumption. The draft would be the perfect way to create a military state with an over zealot president.

The only thing I can say for sure is that if the current American culture was juxtaposed with Americans during WWII...All of Europe would be speaking German. We've lost our backbone for war and that's not necessarily a bad thing, but we probably should take our toys and go home. Let the rest of the world deal with global problems for a bit.

Caskey_91
02-15-2007, 05:53 PM
The only fair way? The soldiers of the U.S. military volunteered, they chose it as a career, and at times I wonder why everyone makes it like they were forced into the military.

Secondly, people that make it like we wouldn't go to war just because of the draft is just making a ridiculous assumption. The draft would be the perfect way to create a military state with an over zealot president.

The only thing I can say for sure is that if the current American culture was juxtaposed with Americans during WWII...All of Europe would be speaking German. We've lost our backbone for war and that's not necessarily a bad thing, but we probably should take our toys and go home. Let the rest of the world deal with global problems for a bit.

I don't mind us dipping our hands into global problems, but sometimes you just need to count your losses and go home, Bush way to much pride to just leave Iraq and quit. The Middle East will never change.

Hell the reason these people hate us so much is we try to force democracy when they don't want it at all.

I strongly disagree with reinsating the draft and most of America and congress would greatly agree.

Mr. Blue
02-15-2007, 06:56 PM
I don't mind us dipping our hands into global problems, but sometimes you just need to count your losses and go home, Bush way to much pride to just leave Iraq and quit. The Middle East will never change.

Hell the reason these people hate us so much is we try to force democracy when they don't want it at all.

I strongly disagree with reinsating the draft and most of America and congress would greatly agree.

I happen to be a strict isolationist. America would benefit greatly if we looked inwardly to improve our situation than constantly looking globally and dealing with politically unstable areas. During the 70's fuel crisis, if we invested heavily in alternative energy, invested in fuel efficient vehicles, and pushed an agenda of self-reliance...would we even care about the middle east now? Nope...wouldn't care one bit.

The Middle East is dictated by religious ideals that don't entirely mesh with a Western secularism. That's fine, more power to them, but let's stop kidding ourselves that we'll ever see eye to eye on any topic.

The problem is we didn't seek other viable energy sources, we didn't work on fuel efficiency, we didn't do the things we needed to do to make America self-sufficient. So, we can't extricate ourselves from Iraq, because of oil, because of Iran, and the Democrats and Republicans both know this, yet they posture themselves for the media so their poll numbers don't get effected.

exarmyranger
02-17-2007, 10:55 PM
Truthfully;my comments reguarding the pro.vrs.con.and the reasoning that led to my posistion on the Draft question,will most likely be contrary to a large % of posters.But frankly I do'nt give a shit...The draft should be revised.several country's make it mandatory for men 18-25 to spend a min.2yrs.of military service.The Swiss require two yrs of military service from thier young men,and they have'nt had any armed conflict,in the defence of thier borders,nor have they gotten involved in,or taken up arms in disputes between other nations,since WWII,Hitler tryed to annex them along with Bavaria,Austria,ect.but decided to leave them alone as long as they remained neutral...Yeah right,whatever you say Adolf !It was'nt worth the trouble,or they did'nt run away and hide,they ran straight at the pride of the 3rd riecht.and beat the shit out of them till they withdrew from within the Swiss borders.Mandatory military service for all men aged 18-25,(unless found to be phsically/mentally unfit).I am the last person to use phrazes like "they'll make a man out of him,or they'll fix his attitude,get his head staight,teach him something about respect,blah,blah.I'm not in favour of sending boys with 2or3 months of rudimentory training into combat against a nation which poses no real threat to our nation,or defending one country,(Democratic or not)against an aggressor)...Mandatory service would make it possible to train reg. ground forces/infantry,what to expect,and when to expect it to happen.How to react or not react when it does.Basic phraze recongnition,and responces.advanced combat techniques(urban,open field,desert,jungle,mountain,ect.)basic load,aim,and fire skills for S.L.M.s,and light to heavy guns,thiers as well as ours.In less than five years the "Don't Tread on Me"would be taken the way it was meant to be taken,not as a catchy slogan!Or a warning!But as a promised threat to kill any/all who offer resistance... Carry-On,ex.

Caskey_91
03-01-2007, 10:34 PM
Truthfully;my comments reguarding the pro.vrs.con.and the reasoning that led to my posistion on the Draft question,will most likely be contrary to a large % of posters.But frankly I do'nt give a shit...The draft should be revised.several country's make it mandatory for men 18-25 to spend a min.2yrs.of military service.The Swiss require two yrs of military service from thier young men,and they have'nt had any armed conflict,in the defence of thier borders,nor have they gotten involved in,or taken up arms in disputes between other nations,since WWII.


Thing is there is a HUGE diffrence between the Swiss and the US 0f A.

The Swiss don't stick their nose in everyones buisness, we do which gets us into conflict and then into war. We can't seem to go 2 decades w/ out being in some type of war now. And we are begining to get our asses kicked too.

exarmyranger
03-02-2007, 12:40 AM
Thing is there is a HUGE diffrence between the Swiss and the US 0f A. No argument there,viva le diffronce.:woohoo:when in France;do as the French do...
The Swiss don't stick their nose in everyones buisness, we do which gets us into conflict and then into war. We can't seem to go 2 decades w/ out being in some type of war now. And we are begining to get our asses kicked too.:saywhat: Out of the mouths of babe's.Two decades,in a row,twenty years. Hmm,I'm 55,must have been before my time...What 2 decades?In what century did that occour?Begining to get our asses kicked... The U.S. still had the selective service,after WW11,with all those,D-DAY,V.E.DAY,V.J.DAY'S UNDER OUR BELT'S...and 5 or 6 years after that two of the world war winner(s)the U.S.,U.S.S.R.(ok, some of the allied command to)were tense...what with the Cold War getting a bit hotter every day.Then the damn Chairman Mao Se Tong,Red China's#1 commie prick,tells his pet dog's on Chinas southern border you go get those cousins in the south and beat the democracy out of them,do'nt worry we got your back!North Korea invaded the South Korean Democracy,and us being anti-communist,said Hey,No Fair, two against one we better go even the odds.We got our asses kicked,Same shit different time and place(not by much)North Vietnam,Cambodia,Laos...We killed 15 to 20 for every 1 U.S.Service personel,and still lost,Nixon ended the lottery in 73.or 74,:doh:since 1975,the Military has been without a draft,and unless your talking Grenada,we get %$#^everytime we play cowboys & indians at somebody elses house.(Black ops)a little coup there,and a little coup over there,that stuff dos'nt count,because... "WE WERE NOT THERE".:cool: Drafted,or enlisted,when your ass is hanging in the wind,you will fight,or you will die.Or both...ex