I dont get it

[Cat slave]

I dont understand why there is a rampant consensus of victimization. ie
the mortgage problems.

When did it actually not count when you needed to .....QUALIFY.. for a loan?????
When did putting down a partial payment up front stop...the debt to
income ratio.....knowing what you are signing and not getting in over your head?
When did people get so greedy that they didnt read the fine print and be
responsible for the decisions that they make?

If someone on the street says I have a bridge Ill sell you for a hundred bucks....
and you give them a hundred dollars and there is no bridge, whos responsibility
is it? Sure the crook is at fault but there would not have been a "fraud" without
the individuals cooperation and blind decision...and stupid too.

We have bought and paid for two homes in our lifetime. Both times we put
down a percentage up front...they ran credit checks...things were written
down in English for all to read and we knew exactly what we were doing
because it was in black and white print!!!!!

Government bail out is inappropriate here as the government has not money
of its own, its my money and your money and why should we pay when some
pie in the sky goes belly up?

Should I or you be bailed out if we over use multiple credit cards...dont pay
and default which raises everyones costs......buy cars that cant be paid for..
where does individual responsibility come in here??????????????
Yes, lenders took advantage, but they couldnt take advantage without the
borrowers request. And yes, everyone wants to own a home, but who pays?
Shouldnt it be them??? If they want a bigger home...who should pay????
Them! Not us!!:banghead:

[kres24GT]

Remember cat, people should never be held responsible for their actions. There is always someone else to blame. Always. Accountability does not exist in America.

[disrupter]

Let me guess, you got both your mortgages when banks were still regulated?

Do you really think the problem would be this huge? [perhaps a Trillion or two]
if rampant abuse by mortgage originators was not involved.

When originators were the same ones to hold the mortgage as an 'asset' they had a selfish interest in making damn sure the person was a decent credit risk and made sure all info about income, liabilities & assets were accurate on the application.

These new mortgage originators didn't give a flying fig about accuracy. They created spring loaded jumps in monthly payments after the first year or even first month. They lied about borrower application info to get the mortgage rammed through.
They endlessly lied to borrowers.
WHY?
Because they didn't give a damn.
They weren't the ones who would be holding the bag.
They just bundled all this garbage together & sold it to unsuspecting [foolish?] banks & investment firms, who wrongly assumed it was anywhere near what traditional banking mortgages were in terms of loan quality.

The people originating the loans are supposed to be the experts.
Low income people who have never had a mortgage before are not experts.
As long as they don't knowingly lie, they are largely the victims and these sharks are the predators.
The funny thing is the predators preyed on the big investment bankers as well,
but the Big Wall Street firms are getting bailed out by the Federal Reserve, at the expense of both investors & taxpayers.

People like the recently dead Ronald Arnall of Ameriquest fraud,
Billionaire, 12 million donor to Bush Cheney, made an Ambassador by Bush,
Made out like bandits,
Billionaire criminal bandits.
The crook base of the GOP.

[disrupter]

are kres & cat being willfully ignorant of the facts in this case?

Is lying to themselves just too comfortable and
Intellectually Lazy an opportunity to miss?

You undermine your own credibility when you so blatantly ignore the actual facts in cases like this.

[kres24GT]

Let me guess, you got both your mortgages when banks were still regulated?

Do you really think the problem would be this huge? [perhaps a Trillion or two]
if rampant abuse by mortgage originators was not involved.

When originators were the same ones to hold the mortgage as an 'asset' they had a selfish interest in making damn sure the person was a decent credit risk and made sure all info about income, liabilities & assets were accurate on the application. They endlessly lied to borrowers.

These new mortgage originators didn't give a flying fig about accuracy. They created spring loaded jumps in monthly payments after the first year or even first month. They lied about borrower info to get the mortgage rammed through.
WHY?
Because they didn't give a damn.
They weren't the ones who would be holding the bag.
They just bundled all this garbage together & sold it to unsuspecting [foolish?] banks & investment firms, who wrongly assumed it was anywhere near what traditional banking mortgages were in terms of loan quality.

The people originating the loans are supposed to be the experts.
Low income people who have never had a mortgage before are not experts.
As long as they don't knowingly lie, they are largely the victims and these sharks are the predators.
The funny thing is the predators preyed on the big investment bankers as well,
but they are getting bailed out by the Federal Reserve, at the expense of both investors & taxpayers.

People like the recently dead Ronald Arnall of Ameriquest fraud,
Billionaire, 12 million donor to Bush Cheney, made an Ambassador by Bush,
Made out like bandits,
Billionaire criminal bandits.
The crook base of the GOP.

More partisan nonsense. Both parties have been screaming since the early 90's to get mortgages to people who don't qualify them. I got my mortgage in 2005 FYI. You have to be incredibly stupid or a flat out sheep to say this is a GOP thing. It's not even debatable it was a bipartisan effort.

Like I said, no one should be held responsible for their actions, it should ALWAYS be blamed on someone else. People can accomplish nothing with out big government. All freedoms, including freedom to fail should be relieved from the people.

Your way is winning disrupter. American will be a totalitarian state where everything is regulated, including diet, education, your job, etc. I would stop crying so much, you are going to get your way. People who love freedom, they are the one s who should be whining.

[disrupter]

Willfully, intentionally lying & cheating people should not be a crime, kres?

I guess you believe in anarchy, don't you.

How is it those naive Wall Street Bankers who got defrauded are getting a bail out?

But those Horrible POOR people who got lied to by mortgage originators don't deserve ANY HELP WHATSOEVER?

Honestly, you & cat are just twisted.

If i ever wanted help from someone like you i will expect a knife in the back.

but then cat supports torturing people in Gitmo the US government has found to be completely innocent is ok.

just sick.

[kres24GT]

Willfully, intentionally lying & cheating people should not be a crime, kres?

I guess you believe in anarchy, don't you.

How is it those naive Wall Street Bankers who got defrauded are getting a bail out?

But those Horrible POOR people who got lied to by mortgage originators don't deserve ANY HELP WHATSOEVER?

Honestly, you & cat are just twisted.

If i ever wanted help from someone like you i will expect a knife in the back.


The bail out for the lenders is just as disgusting as it for those who borrowed money. For those who committed fraud, charge them as such. For those who just entered into stupid loans, they should be held responsible for their actions.

As I said disrupter, your totalitarian state will soon be a reality, don't sweat it. Freedom is all but dead in this country.

[disrupter]

Why then is your rhetoric against victimize poor people so ACID,
while you & cat DON'T EVEN BOTHER TO SAY A DAMN WORD ABOUT BEAR STEARNS OR OTHERS.

Um, excuse me your actions run counter to your ACTUAL WORDS & POSTS.

I can't believe how inhumane & dishonest some supposed Americans can be.

I guess you show how deeply our species can be inclined to treachery.

You can lie with words, but your actions show your true intent.

[Moby]

I'm not a big fan of bailing out people that made bad choices. Unfortunately we've already bailed out one investment institution and we're going to bail out the rest. While we all knew in 2000 that there would be some kind of bailout and it would probably be 2 to 3 times the S&L bailout I don't think anyone knew that we'd see this. Even Saudi Arabia is helping bail us out.

We might see bank losses of $600 to $800 Billion before it's all over.

The problem is that fall out from just letting them all fail. Imagine having nearly a $trillion dollars pulled out of the US economy. Borrowing money is the only thing that has helped our economy grow the past few years. It would be a disaster of Great Depression type failure.

The tax payers are going to bail out the banks no matter what. Even if we just allow Saudi Arabia and china to buy them out it's still all money that we gave them.

On the other side is the home owner. If we suddenly have 1,000,000 homes hit foreclosure at the same time then prices will drop drastically. Since our economy is based on borrowing and the borrowing has been backed by home values then the economy would take a massive hit as well.

Just imagine if people no longer had money to spend. Our economy would come to grinding halt.

I'm not for bailing out people out that made bad choices. However, I am for protecting the economy and when you look at the big picture, we have to keep it going. We don't have anything else.

We knew this was going top happen before the 2004 election. We knew that our fiscal policy of borrowing and spending would put us in a bad spot right about now. We voted for it any way. Now we have to pay for it.

Unless you're ready for another great depression, you're going to have to pay. Maybe this time we'll learn from this mistake.

[kres24GT]

I'm not a big fan of bailing out people that made bad choices. Unfortunately we've already bailed out one investment institution and we're going to bail out the rest. While we all knew in 2000 that there would be some kind of bailout and it would probably be 2 to 3 times the S&L bailout I don't think anyone knew that we'd see this. Even Saudi Arabia is helping bail us out.

We might see bank losses of $600 to $800 Billion before it's all over.

The problem is that fall out from just letting them all fail. Imagine having nearly a $trillion dollars pulled out of the US economy. Borrowing money is the only thing that has helped our economy grow the past few years. It would be a disaster of Great Depression type failure.

The tax payers are going to bail out the banks no matter what. Even if we just allow Saudi Arabia and china to buy them out it's still all money that we gave them.

On the other side is the home owner. If we suddenly have 1,000,000 homes hit foreclosure at the same time then prices will drop drastically. Since our economy is based on borrowing and the borrowing has been backed by home values then the economy would take a massive hit as well.

Just imagine if people no longer had money to spend. Our economy would come to grinding halt.

I'm not for bailing out people out that made bad choices. However, I am for protecting the economy and when you look at the big picture, we have to keep it going. We don't have anything else.

We knew this was going top happen before the 2004 election. We knew that our fiscal policy of borrowing and spending would put us in a bad spot right about now. We voted for it any way. Now we have to pay for it.

Unless you're ready for another great depression, you're going to have to pay. Maybe this time we'll learn from this mistake.


Continuing to let government bail us out over and over again is going to have drastic effects. At some point we have to take our lumps, the longer government delays these lumps, the worse it is going to be. The only way to stop this is vote both parties out of office. Yet anotehr example that party politics are more important than what's best for the country. Any sane person knows continuing to vote for these two parties will destroy the country.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

The problem is that fall out from just letting them all fail. Imagine having nearly a $trillion dollars pulled out of the US economy. Borrowing money is the only thing that has helped our economy grow the past few years. It would be a disaster of Great Depression type failure.

I'm no fan of another Depression, great or otherwise but frankly, that is what is going to need to happen to really get back on track.

On the other side is the home owner. If we suddenly have 1,000,000 homes hit foreclosure at the same time then prices will drop drastically. Since our economy is based on borrowing and the borrowing has been backed by home values then the economy would take a massive hit as well.

Only for those who want to sell their property. The rest of us won't be clobbered that hard.

Just imagine if people no longer had money to spend. Our economy would come to grinding halt.

Credit is NOT having money to spend.

Maybe this time we'll learn from this mistake.


Not bloody likely until we have another depression. It's not the tax payers who made the mistakes.


Lady Mod

[disrupter]

What the criminal elite are doing is driving the average american into poverty & despair.

they undermine honest working people by glutting the market with illegals.
they let people who got loans in good faith to be screwed over & bankrupted by loan sharks.
they make bankruptcy more difficult for average people swamped by medical catastrophe, but make it EASIER for TRUMP types to declare Billion dollar bankruptcies.
They raise your taxes, while corps offshore & duck theirs.
They are robbing your children even before they have a political voice or awareness of it.
Deficit spending is Economic Pedophilia.

The criminal elite is trying to turn middle class Americans into serfs,
desperate impoverishment they can herd around like cattle & slaves.

We need people to be educated, not just with academic niceties, but in the skeptical arms length scrutiny of people making sweet sounding promises.
Both in business & politics, sweet words are easy,
lower your expectations to something that seems reasonably practically accomplishable.

If you teach your children one thing,
teach them that words & promises are separate & distinct from implementing actions.
not all words are lies, but lying is incredibly easy,
so they should never accept something without some actual real evidence to back it up, & even then they should intermittently check back on it now & again.

Skepticism, skepticism, skepticism.
That is the education they need.

[kres24GT]

What the criminal elite are doing is driving the average american into poverty & despair.

they undermine honest working people by glutting the market with illegals.
they let people who got loans in good faith to be screwed over & bankrupted by loan sharks.
they make bankruptcy more difficult for average people swamped by medical catastrophe, but make it EASIER for TRUMP types to declare Billion dollar bankruptcies.
They raise your taxes, while corps offshore & duck theirs.
They are robbing your children even before they have a political voice or awareness of it, economic pedophilia.

The criminal elite is trying to turn middle class Americans into serfs,
desperate impoverishment they can herd around like cattle & slaves.

We need people to be educated, not just with academic niceties, but in the skeptical arms length scrutiny of people making sweet sounding promises.
Both in business & politics, sweet words are easy,
lower your expectations to something that seems reasonably practically accomplishable.

If you teach your children one thing,
teach them that words & promises are separate & distinct from implementing actions.
not all words are lies, but lying is incredibly easy,
so they should never accept something without some actual real evidence to back it up, & even then they should intermittently check back on it now & again.

Skepticism, skepticism, skepticism.
That is the education they need.


How about just teaching your kids how to be fiscally responsible?

You are contradicting yourself. You are upset that the rich control so much of the government, yet you want to give them more power. The onyl way to get rid of the power of the rich, is to take power away form the politcians they control. Right now the Dem and Repub parties ,as well as practically all of their politcians are bought and paid for. Increase their power, you increase the power of the wealthy.

[disrupter]

No i am just talking about hitting the problem from both ends,

Teaching children, people, Americans, skepticism, scrutiny & critical thinking.
That is something one should do in any event,
under ANY circumstances.

It just makes being a liar SO much more difficult that it leaves many dying on the vine. It alone has a good effect on the marketplace & society.
it helps weed out myths & superstitions, for those things that retain some credibility.

But to expect that in a world with 6.5 billion people you are going to have anything but a disaster without some kind of reciprocal government on the other, big side of things is madness.

Both work towards a center of an optimal world.
They never achieve perfection & that is probably a good thing since the definition of 'perfection' is in constant flux.

the government has to have strong overarching structure.
It should not be defining people's lives, but it gives a great framework upon which they can build, increasing their variety & potential.
That same structure should try not to be over burdensome itself,
light & strong is the ideal, like efficient bridge building.

Right now the government has been overrun by completely selfish maggots,
who not only are ruthlessly, criminally selfish, but proclaim it loudly like it is a virtue.

Capitalism is a race to the lowest common denominator,
its ONLY virtue is ruthless, reckless efficiency.
Rape & Capitalism are synonyms.

I guess the one thing the GOP has done is tie God & capitalism together,
they are both equally fraudulent, corrupt & evil.

Democracy is inherently COMMUNAL in nature.
it is the COLLECTIVE decision making process.

If you believe in democracy you have at least a little communism in your soul.

[bigfootzx]

We can thank Congress Bill Clinton and Bush for failing to understand why the Glass Stegal Act was written in the first place. Repealing such a law opened the gates of hell and allowed the devils to rape the wealth and another group of devils bailed them out. Hope they made enough money to erase the guilt and help them forget about their crimes.

Fortunatley the FBI are investigating the corporate scumbags. I bet there are some politicians and bureaucrats who were paid to look the other way while the fraud continued. Excusing the crimes with crap like they wanted to give people a chance to own a home is bullshit. The majority would have qualified anyway, but they would have qualified for a smaller loan. If they wanted a bigger home they should have been encouraged to save the money.

[Moby]

I'm no fan of another Depression, great or otherwise but frankly, that is what is going to need to happen to really get back on track.

Only for those who want to sell their property. The rest of us won't be clobbered that hard.

Credit is NOT having money to spend.


Not bloody likely until we have another depression. It's not the tax payers who made the mistakes.

Lady Mod
You may be right and we're coming very close to depression like times. A number of indicators are at historical down turns. Unfortunately we've borrowed our way into a corner.

The longer we wait the harder we fall but Americans just want the Republicans to keep borrowing.

What's really sad is that most people haven't taken any time to understand this situation. They're more concerned with Oberman's ratings, American Idol and black religious leaders :(

[kres24GT]

Amazing people can't it get through their heads this is bipartisan effort to destroy America. Sad that when the future's scholars look back on American civilization they will see that too many Americans being party sheep is what destroyed what could have been the greatest civilization ever.

Can you imagine looking back on a past civilization and seeing that the people knowingly voted for their own destruction?

[disrupter]

bigfootzx,
The FBI was complicit covering up the Franklin Child Abuse scandal,

you REALLY expect them to 'do the right thing' here?

Don't bet anything you weren't already going to throw away on it.

kres, either you vote, you revolt or you do nothing.
my guess: you are doing nothing?
that is what you equate with better than voting?

note: problem with electronic voting is that it doesn't allow write-in votes which have been traditionally included.
It needs to be updated to include that option.
that helps in a tiny way to break the two party monopoly.

[bigfootzx]

disrupter, we'll see what the FBI uncovers or if they are bullied into dropping the investigation. The FBI should use their hand cuffs more often.

We have electronic voting that allows write in's in GA

Maybe we need a 3rd majority party, ehhh it would never work, the corruption would ensue in the 3rd party plus many dems and reps would run under a new party ticket so the infestation of ignorance and corruption would continue.

[kres24GT]

bigfootzx,
The FBI was complicit covering up the Franklin Child Abuse scandal,

you REALLY expect them to 'do the right thing' here?

Don't bet anything you weren't already going to throw away on it.

kres, either you vote, you revolt or you do nothing.
my guess: you are doing nothing?
that is what you equate with better than voting?

note: problem with electronic voting is that it doesn't allow write-in votes which have been traditionally included.
It needs to be updated to include that option.
that helps in a tiny way to break the two party monopoly.


I voted electronically in 06 and write ins were allowed.

I vote every election, just not for Reps and Dems.

[kres24GT]

disrupter, we'll see what the FBI uncovers or if they are bullied into dropping the investigation. The FBI should use their hand cuffs more often.

We have electronic voting that allows write in's in GA

Maybe we need a 3rd majority party, ehhh it would never work, the corruption would ensue in the 3rd party plus many dems and reps would run under a new party ticket so the infestation of ignorance and corruption would continue.


We need multiple parties, 4 or 5. The more the better. Allowing two to run things is killing us.

[disrupter]

How did you do write-ins?
didn't you have touch screens?

[disrupter]

The FBI fired Sibel Edmonds when she reported that the FBI translators cheered the WTC tower collapse on 911. She got fired & legally silenced.

What does THAT tell you?

[AVG_JOE]

If you want to know who is responsible, figure out who stood the most to gain...

Who had complete control over the money supply during the ramp up to this crisis?

Who is about to thank Mr. Bush for granting them almost complete control over the American economy?

The Federal Reserve, that’s who.

Don’t let anyone tell you that those old farts aren’t smart enough to arrange this kind of coup, they’ve been at it a while now.

A private corporation that you and I don't vote for and can't buy stock in no matter what kind of cash we have to work with. Why in the HELL have they been in control of our money supply since 1913?

I believe that most history texts refer to private controllers of national economies as “Your Majesty”…

Back in the spring of '63 President Kennedy remarked that it was probably better for the American People if their money supply was not in the hands of a private company. He was shot the next November...

Coincidence? Perhaps...

-Joe

[mwillman]

You know none of this would have been a problem if the banks had not jacked up the interest rates.

The people that got the morgages could pay the cost at the original interest rates. It wasnt until the banks started jumping them up to 3 and 4 times there orginal rate that people started foreclosing. This is of course generally speaking.

The second reason it became such a problem is becuase they had sold and resold the morgages so many times no one know who owned what. Massive deregulation created a free for all with the money manipulators.

Of course if the banks had lost thier shirts it might have snow balled into a much nastier situation so the government stepped in and tried to aleviate it a bit.

There is enough blame to go around the banks the goverment speculators and some of the buyers. I tend to put most of the blame on the people that gave the loans then jacked up the interest rates. I mean they had seen the peoples financials they knew alot of people would not be able to pay the higher interest rates but they did it anyways.

[kres24GT]

How did you do write-ins?
didn't you have touch screens?


You type it in.

[Cat slave]

I'm not a big fan of bailing out people that made bad choices. Unfortunately we've already bailed out one investment institution and we're going to bail out the rest. While we all knew in 2000 that there would be some kind of bailout and it would probably be 2 to 3 times the S&L bailout I don't think anyone knew that we'd see this. Even Saudi Arabia is helping bail us out.

We might see bank losses of $600 to $800 Billion before it's all over.

The problem is that fall out from just letting them all fail. Imagine having nearly a $trillion dollars pulled out of the US economy. Borrowing money is the only thing that has helped our economy grow the past few years. It would be a disaster of Great Depression type failure.

The tax payers are going to bail out the banks no matter what. Even if we just allow Saudi Arabia and china to buy them out it's still all money that we gave them.

On the other side is the home owner. If we suddenly have 1,000,000 homes hit foreclosure at the same time then prices will drop drastically. Since our economy is based on borrowing and the borrowing has been backed by home values then the economy would take a massive hit as well.

Just imagine if people no longer had money to spend. Our economy would come to grinding halt.

I'm not for bailing out people out that made bad choices. However, I am for protecting the economy and when you look at the big picture, we have to keep it going. We don't have anything else.

We knew this was going top happen before the 2004 election. We knew that our fiscal policy of borrowing and spending would put us in a bad spot right about now. We voted for it any way. Now we have to pay for it.

Unless you're ready for another great depression, you're going to have to pay. Maybe this time we'll learn from this mistake.

Not very fair to the majority of people who are making their mortgage payments and monthly bills on time. I wouldnt blame them if the just
figured "why bother"?

[Cat slave]

You know none of this would have been a problem if the banks had not jacked up the interest rates.

The people that got the morgages could pay the cost at the original interest rates. It wasnt until the banks started jumping them up to 3 and 4 times there orginal rate that people started foreclosing. This is of course generally speaking.

The second reason it became such a problem is becuase they had sold and resold the morgages so many times no one know who owned what. Massive deregulation created a free for all with the money manipulators.

Of course if the banks had lost thier shirts it might have snow balled into a much nastier situation so the government stepped in and tried to aleviate it a bit.

There is enough blame to go around the banks the goverment speculators and some of the buyers. I tend to put most of the blame on the people that gave the loans then jacked up the interest rates. I mean they had seen the peoples financials they knew alot of people would not be able to pay the higher interest rates but they did it anyways.

But isnt that part of a variable rate...balloon or whatever they call it?
Not a fixed rate.

[Cat slave]

Remember cat, people should never be held responsible for their actions. There is always someone else to blame. Always. Accountability does not exist in America.


The basis of my thread....you got it.:thumbsup:

[mwillman]

It is but the banks could have frozen the rates and still made a profit.

They still could but they make more money by being able to sell a house 2 or 3 times to buyers that can pay for a few years and then cant when the banks jack up the rates. Alot of these people are not the best financially but all they want to do is have a house for thier kids.

In the 50s you could buy a house for 12 grand, now its closer to 300 grand.
So alot of people take the loan not realizing how high the payments will get or just hoping they can keep up.

Its not the smartest thing to do in the world but the system is built to profit off of thier failure.

The problem is the get rich scheme got to big with people jumping into the game from all over and then the forclosures got to be to many to fast and the bottom dropped out of the market.

Now Bush and congress are bailing out the financial companies becuase they have thier fingers in so many pieces of the pie that if they fail it can cause a snow ball effect and really hurt the economy.

But in the end its the people lossing thier houses and the ability to get another that are being hurt the worst. The rich business men that work in the banks all have nice houses and big cars.

[Cat slave]

Most people are making their mortgage payments though. I guess if you are
one of the ones that arent then its catastrophic of course but not the majority.
Not you persoanlly of course.

[Cat slave]

Actually, I wonder how much of this is smoke to distract us from the monumental loss of jobs and manufacturing. To me that is a much worse
problem. Everyday you see companies moving off shore and people being
left high and dry with no jobs....and it just keeps on happening and no
attention is paid to it.

[AVG_JOE]

Actually, I wonder how much of this is smoke to distract us from the monumental loss of jobs and manufacturing. To me that is a much worse
problem. Everyday you see companies moving off shore and people being
left high and dry with no jobs....and it just keeps on happening and no
attention is paid to it.

Bingo!

Can you say "Resource controlling wealthy families" and "Federal Reserve"?

I knew you could!

-Joe

[Cat slave]

In other words, a two class system with wealthy, powerful elitists at the top
and the rest of us on the bottom as little worker bees with what wealth(!) the
middle class has accumulated redistributed to the lower class to make sure there
is a level playing field of dependent workers. Gotta be fair, the elites say.:mad:

[Moby]

In other words, a two class system with wealthy, powerful elitists at the top
and the rest of us on the bottom as little worker bees with what wealth(!) the
middle class has accumulated redistributed to the lower class to make sure there
is a level playing field of dependent workers. Gotta be fair, the elites say.:mad:
Now you understand the PNAC a little better. I'm sure that you will continue to vote for them but at least you know what they're doing.

[bigfootzx]

How did you do write-ins?
didn't you have touch screens?

In GA to write in a vote, choose the Other and select write in ballot choice.
You have to type out the name with the touch screen keypad.

[Cat slave]

Now you understand the PNAC a little better. I'm sure that you will continue to vote for them but at least you know what they're doing.


Excuse me? Im a conservative independent and hardly follow any partys lines
nor vote blindly...sometimes not well, but thats another story.:D

[Moby]

Excuse me? Im a conservative independent and hardly follow any partys lines
nor vote blindly...sometimes not well, but thats another story.:D
Who do you think would have been handling Romney or Fred? It's the same group of people that are handling Bush now. A federalism, fascism, whatever you want to call it but it's not just for America, the PNAC wants to control the world as a two class, single party system.

It appears that McCain can't win without the PNAC so he will owe them big time. However, he's old, doesn't need $Billion and has gone against the PNAC before.

[disrupter]

kres & cat should be held responsible when they get robbed at gunpoint.

How's that for 'responsibility'?

[bigfootzx]

Who do you think would have been handling Romney or Fred? It's the same group of people that are handling Bush now. A federalism, fascism, whatever you want to call it but it's not just for America, the PNAC wants to control the world as a two class, single party system.

It appears that McCain can't win without the PNAC so he will owe them big time. However, he's old, doesn't need $Billion and has gone against the PNAC before.

Don't forget the closet dems aka socialists aka neo libs.
Collusive groups are working both sides of the isles, the dem bad guys
are in the closet pretending to be something else. HIllary is a prime
example, Romney too, Romney just changed his color from blue to red.