80 year old Deacon Arrested 4 wearing Anit-War T-shirt at Mall

[disrupter]

80-year-old [church deacon] arrested after refusing to turn anti-war shirt inside out

An 80-year-old man was arrested Saturday afternoon "after he upset mall patrons by wearing a shirt with graphic anti-war images," Suffolk County, N.Y., police say in a press release.

The statement says security guards at Smith Haven Mall asked Donald Zirkel to stop distributing anti-war pamphlets. They also asked him to turn his shirt inside out because other patrons found it "disturbing," the police department says.

Newsday says the shirt included simulated blood and "had the death tolls of American military personnel and Iraqis - 4,000 and 1 million - and the words 'Dead' and 'Enough.'"

"Zirkel refused to turn the shirt inside out, and mall security told him to leave," police say. "After refusing to leave, mall security placed Zirkel on civilian arrest and called police. When police arrived, Zirkel passively resisted the police attempts to transport him to the police car."

Zirkel was charged with trespassing and resisting arrest. He's free on bail.

"Eighty years, and I have never been arrested before for fighting injustice," he tells Newsday.http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/03/80-year-old-arr.html

What a bunch of gutless ninnies WTF do these people think war is?
WTF do they think their nation is engaged in?

If these people are not ready for adult society & adult responsibility for what their nation is doing they better run home & close the curtains.

Because these terrible things their nation is involved in are going to come back on them & their children.

they should be thanking this man for even a glimpse of the monstrosities that are going on in Iraq.

BTW, what the fuck do they think their kids are watching on video games all day long?

[kres24GT]

80-year-old [church deacon] arrested after refusing to turn anti-war shirt inside out

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/03/80-year-old-arr.html

What a bunch of gutless ninnies WTF do these people think war is?
WTF do they think their nation is engaged in?

If these people are not ready for adult society & adult responsibility for what their nation is doing they better run home & close the curtains.

Because these terrible things their nation is involved in are going to come back on them & their children.

they should be thanking this man for even a glimpse of the monstrosities that are going on in Iraq.

BTW, what the fuck do they think their kids are watching on video games all day long?


If he was wearing a shirt that said "Fuck Niggers" and it bothered people, and he was asked to turn it inside-out, would you object then?

[disrupter]

I am not sure.

With this nation's own constitutional history that has disenfranchised African Americans that might make sense,
Of course i also do believe in free speech.

the war t-shirt is designed to show simulated blood which is a real & objective fact of war,
it enlightens us to something the corporate media has traitorously allowed us to ignore.

simply saying 'fuck niggers' doesn't really have any cogent comment,
it is offense purely for the sake of offending & discriminating against people,
without any content of 'why'.

the war t-shirt attempts however crudely to inform/enlighten people,
the 'fuck niggers' t-shirt attempts to reinforce ignorance.

The anti-war shirt adds to thinking,
the 'fuck niggers' t-shirts diminishes thinking.

I guess to me the important aspect of free speech is free thought.
Enriching & expanding that would generally be a good thing,
diminishing it is not generally a good thing.

[kres24GT]

I am not sure.

With this nation's own constitutional history that has disenfranchised African Americans that might make sense,
Of course i also do believe in free speech.

the war t-shirt is designed to show simulated blood which is a real & objective fact of war,
it enlightens us to something the corporate media has traitorously allowed us to ignore.

simply saying 'fuck niggers' doesn't really have any cogent comment,
it is offense purely for the sake of offending & discriminating against people,
without any content of 'why'.

the war t-shirt attempts however crudely to inform/enlighten people,
the 'fuck niggerss' t-shirt attempts to reinforce ignorance.

The anti-war shirt adds to thinking,
the 'fuck niggers' t-shirts diminishes thinking.

I guess to me the important aspect of free speech is free thought.
Enriching & expanding that would generally be a good thing,
diminishing it is not generally a good thing.



Personally I beleive it is up to the mall. The mall is their property and they have a right to decide who can wear what on their property.

I have no problem with such a shirt and if it was worn by someone at my house I wouldn't care. If I had children, depending on what was on the shirt, maybe differently.

Of course I am sure you beleive George Bush himself called in the warrant to have the man arrested.


If you came to my house wearing clothing I did not agree with, I'd ask you to remove it or leave. I would afford you, the mall, and anyone else the same respect.

[kres24GT]

Also, you are claiming your views and messages are right, and other people's are wrong. You walk a line dangerously close to fascism, of course Americans usually do.

[disrupter]

This has to do with Americans burying their heads in the sand as to what their government is up to.

Technically a mall is private property.
I can only hope this falls VERY heavily upon them,
that the publicity is rankingly bad & damages business.

I realize this war was designed to be numbingly distant,
no draft,
half the troops are private mercenaries, covering up real US death counts,
deficit spending that robs our children so we adults don't feel it, which is like renting your children out to a pedophile for money.

BUT at some point if the American people are WILLFULLY ignorant, you really DO have to blame them for the next 911 when it happens.

This is the disease of wealth & arrogance that turns into blissful ignorance,
over the long run it will end badly or terribly.

[disrupter]

'Fuck Niggers' is unlikely to be an invitation to have sex with african Americans.
It is most likely just an emotional incendiary without any rational content.

It doesn't include any reason to 'fuck niggers' so it is absent of content.

Blood is a very real part of any war. & certainly the Iraq war.
What is shocking is people's objection to responsibly deal with symbolic blood.
They seek to be ignorant child minds rather than at least try to have some at least intellectual connection with what is going on in their nation's name.
Are they not living here? Not citizens?
Where do they think the resulting anger from US actions will be focused?
on the Antarctic?
These people are derelict in their responsibilities as part of an American democracy.

someone recently said, next to the statue of liberty should be the statue of responsibility.

Free lunches always run out,
one's ignorance means one will have no tools to garner future lunches.

Liberty can not be taken as a never ending free lunch.
These people are free loaders of intellectual responsibility.

[radioguy]

I love that misleading headline the liberal media chose to use. They attempted to turn this into a "freedom of speech" issue, when the story itself states something totally different.

As stated in the forth paragraph, "After refusing to leave, mall security placed Zirkel on civilian arrest and called police". His arrest had nothing to do with the t-shirt. It was his refusal to leave the mall when asked to do so by mall security.

The mall has every right in the world to ask someone causing a disturbance to leave, no matter who the are, or what political cause they are pushing.

[disrupter]

You are lying radioguy.

They told him to change his clothes by turning the t-shirt inside out.

It is ALL about insulating shrill Americans from the FACTS about what their government is up to.

I will bet you they only got a very FEW complaints,
it was the corporate propaganda machine that decided people should be denied the truth.

[radioguy]

You are lying radioguy.

They told him to change his clothes by turning the t-shirt inside out.
`
You are the one lying.

The man was causing a disturbance, so mall security offered that as a remedy to the problem. When the man refused, they were left with no choice but to ask him to leave. His refusal to leave is why the police were called.

It´s right there in the story. All you have to do is read it.

"Zirkel refused to turn the shirt inside out, and mall security told him to leave," police say. "After refusing to leave, mall security placed Zirkel on civilian arrest and called police."

[disrupter]

Dollars to Doughnuts,
the REAL reason he was ousted is Retailers don't want customers who think about things,

if they did they might ask, 'Why the hell am i buying this?'
'Why am i spending credit/money i don't have on it?'

By all means, corporate American does not want people with critical thinking skills.

I bet they had a very few complaints & probably most all of THOSE came from store owners, NOT actual people.

Come on America, quite being willingly injected with mind numbing banality that robs you of awareness of the globe you inhabit.

If you don't pay attention to reality, it will still bite you in the ass.
If you payed attention you might get your ass out of the way of its bite.

[Bill]

Sounds like a sweet old guy.

it's nice to see a christian in the news in a positive context, fighting the way the old school christians did, for peace and justice.

[radioguy]

Sounds like a sweet old guy.

it's nice to see a christian in the news in a positive context, fighting the way the old school christians did, for peace and justice.

Sounds like a typical liberal to me.

No respect for private property, other peoples feelings or the law.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

A halfway decent lawyer will get the charges removed and lots of press coverage.

He wasn't breaking any laws. Not a single one.


They should get a group together to show up at the mall and wearing the same t-shirts. LOL.



Lady Mod

[kres24GT]

A halfway decent lawyer will get the charges removed and lots of press coverage.

He wasn't breaking any laws. Not a single one.


They should get a group together to show up at the mall and wearing the same t-shirts. LOL.



Lady Mod


He was asked to leave and did not, at that point he is trespassing. Trespassing is against the law. Just become someone agrees with your POV doesn't give them the right to disturb other people at people's places of business.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

He was asked to leave and did not, at that point he is trespassing. Trespassing is against the law. Just become someone agrees with your POV doesn't give them the right to disturb other people at people's places of business.

Up until that point he wasn't breaking any laws. He wasn't even trespassing. Were there signs saying no anti war shirts allowed? No old men allowed? Gosh, don't pick your nose because we might ask you to leave if someone grosses out.

A good lawyer will get him off.


He wasn't disturbing anyone Cupcake, he was wearing an anti-war t-shirt, not holding a ralley. If anything his rights were violated first.


Lady Mod

[kres24GT]

Up until that point he wasn't breaking any laws. He wasn't even trespassing. Were there signs saying no anti war shirts allowed? No old men allowed? Gosh, don't pick your nose because we might ask you to leave if someone grosses out.

A good lawyer will get him off.


He wasn't disturbing anyone Cupcake, he was wearing an anti-war t-shirt, not holding a ralley. If anything his rights were violated first.


Lady Mod


I agree a good lawyer will get him off, and I also agree we don't know the full story I am sure. However if he was asked to lave and refuse, he is breaking the law at that point.

Private property rights are a necessity to deter a totalitarian state. Businesses have a right, and a duty to their customers, to remove people causing a nuisance (yes, this is a subjective term).

I am not saying some pro-war person had him removed just for spite, but it is really irrelevant. The mall asked him to leave, he refused. At this point it is a legal matter.

The alternative is letting people physically remove, or even shoot, people who refuse to remove themselves form premises by the owners or managers. Would you prefer this?

[bigfootzx]

This is a prime example of liberals going to far and thinking they have a right to do or say whatever they want irrespective of public decency, parents, children and private property owner rights as well as public complaints. Free speech is fine so long as it does not offend people, the mall employees have a right to toss the guy, I'd boot him too. Same as they would boot a public drunk, we have standards in this country. Media morons got this one wrong, no suprise.

Turn the shirt inside out or leave, at the point of refusal, I'd throw this asshole out too. No blood and gore!! Common people, this is not about free speech it about what is socially acceptable in public places. Screw this guy, I hope they fine him for being a clueless rebel. Maybe he cares about our soldiers and I happen to agree with the agument partially, but no blood.

They don't allow rap music t-shirts with blood on them either!!!!!!!!!!

"Contrary to media reports, there were other circumstances that contributed to the arrest of Mr. Zirkel that extended well beyond his claims, including his insistence on continuing to rally inside Smith Haven Mall by handing out pamphlets and interacting with patrons in the mall’s food court, despite being asked to cease and desist these activities. ... In keeping with our Code of Conduct, it is our corporate policy not to allow protests or demonstrations of any kind to take place on mall property regardless of the topic."

[LadyMod at scam.com]

This is a prime example of liberals going to far and thinking they have a right to do or say whatever they want irrespective of public decency, parents, children and private property owner rights as well as public complaints. Free speech is fine so long as it does not offend people, the mall employees have a right to toss the guy, I'd boot him too. Same as they would boot a public drunk, we have standards in this country. Media morons got this one wrong, no suprise.

Turn the shirt inside out or leave, at the point of refusal, I'd throw this asshole out too. No blood and gore!! Common people, this is not about free speech it about what is socially acceptable in public places. Screw this guy, I hope they fine him for being a clueless rebel. Maybe he cares about our soldiers and I happen to agree with the agument partially, but no blood.

They don't allow rap music t-shirts with blood on them either!!!!!!!!!!

"Contrary to media reports, there were other circumstances that contributed to the arrest of Mr. Zirkel that extended well beyond his claims, including his insistence on continuing to rally inside Smith Haven Mall by handing out pamphlets and interacting with patrons in the mall’s food court, despite being asked to cease and desist these activities. ... In keeping with our Code of Conduct, it is our corporate policy not to allow protests or demonstrations of any kind to take place on mall property regardless of the topic."

So???? Don't look at the shirts. It's not like the guy was following people around making a spectacle of himself.


I think half naked women should cover up. Is anyone going to tell those girls to put some more clothes on or leave the mall?

Not in a million years. Skimpy clothes are acceptable, tshirts with bloody pictures isn't. What hypocrisy.


Lady Mod

[kres24GT]

So???? Don't look at the shirts. It's not like the guy was following people around making a spectacle of himself.


I think half naked women should cover up. Is anyone going to tell those girls to put some more clothes on or leave the mall?

Not in a million years. Skimpy clothes are acceptable, tshirts with bloody pictures isn't. What hypocrisy.


Lady Mod


You decide what is appropriate on your porperty, let the mall do the same. If you don't agree with the mall's decision, don't go there.

You want people who share your views to have free reign to say and do whatever they want.

[bigfootzx]

So???? Don't look at the shirts. It's not like the guy was following people around making a spectacle of himself.

I think half naked women should cover up. Is anyone going to tell those girls to put some more clothes on or leave the mall?

Not in a million years. Skimpy clothes are acceptable, tshirts with bloody pictures isn't. What hypocrisy.

Lady Mod

When other people complain and the mall rules say no, no means no.
Your wrong to think we should allow anything that comes to mind.
Remove the blood, no problem. Funny how you're okay with rappers too
or are you turning a blind eye to their blood a gore desires too?

Never seen a half naked woman at the mall, but its not bad idea, might get more men to shop, ROFL!!
Half naked means topless, right, lol!! Low cut jeans and half shirts, not like were seeing bush or anything, blame it on MTV, Britney and Paris Hilton.

There's a major difference between skimpy clothes and bloody shirt pics, no hypocrisy, just common sense and social standards, something some liberals are clueless about. You do realize media libs were okay with Victoria Secret ads on TV? Talk about low cut, meow!!! And the double standard, now that's hypocrisy!!! But they don't want their kids doing it!!!

[LadyMod at scam.com]

When other people complain and the mall rules say no, no means no.
Your wrong to think we should allow anything that comes to mind.
Remove the blood, no problem. Funny how you're okay with rappers too
or are you turning a blind eye to their blood a gore desires too?

You have rappers walking around performing their shows in your mall? What part of the planet do you live on?

Never seen a half naked woman at the mall, but its not bad idea, might get more men to shop, ROFL!!
Half naked means topless, right, lol!! Low cut jeans and half shirts, not like were seeing bush or anything, blame it on MTV, Britney and Paris Hilton.

There's a major difference between skimpy clothes and bloody shirt pics, no hypocrisy, just common sense and social standards, something some liberals are clueless about.

What's the difference? There are laws against indecent exposure and half exposed breasts, ass cracks showing or butt cheeks might be some people's idea of indecent. Whereas, shirts with pictures of blood and anti war protests don't rate a second glance, much less getting one kicked out of a mall. Yet an old man with such a tshirt is discriminated against. And that's OK with you?

Very hypocritical. No matter how you slice it.


You do realize media libs were okay with Victoria Secret ads on TV? Talk about low cut, meow!!! And the double standard, now that's hypocrisy!!! But they don't want their kids doing it!!!

It wasn't a lib kicking the guy out of the mall. Nor was the guy protesting Victoria Secret ads on television.


Lady Mod

[bigfootzx]

Did I say anything about concerts in the malls? Several have been seen in gangsta grafiti shirts. Go research gansta rappers and killer rappers, let us know when you come back to earth??


What's the difference? There are laws against indecent exposure and half exposed breasts, ass cracks showing or butt cheeks might be some people's idea of indecent. Whereas, shirts with pictures of blood and anti war protests don't rate a second glance, much less getting one kicked out of a mall. Yet an old man with such a tshirt is discriminated against. And that's OK with you?

Tell it to the girls parents, if they let it happen and the mall patron do not complain, then there is no problem. Big difference, cleavage versus blood/n gore. Some cities are telling kids to pull up their pants and no more showing underwear, so some are making progress. Apples and oranges arguement, well actually your end is more like koolaid.

It's not discrimination when he violates building rules and patrons complain, then the guy makes a fuss which is creating a public disturbance, passing out literature violates city codes and building rules. The man went to far so its okay by me if the city and the mall want people to have a pleasant shopping experience rather than be robbed of thier happiness. Should parents have to explain to kids what the shirt means, no, when they are older they'll understand and be able to process the information better.

You are more hypocritcal than me, maybe you like to break the law and violate/offend the public in public places. Or would you prefer others do it while you sit back and let them demonsrate, aka the ole double standard.

It wasn't a lib kicking the guy out of the mall. Nor was the guy protesting Victoria Secret ads on television.

So you know which party they belong too? Psychic LadyMod
Libs run many TV networks, they approved VS ads, I don't mind them
hell I can name a 5 models on sight, but parents object, yet the ads roll
on..................... and on.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Did I say anything about concerts in the malls? Several have been seen in gangsta grafiti shirts. Go research gansta rappers and killer rappers, let us know when you come back to earth??


What's the difference? There are laws against indecent exposure and half exposed breasts, ass cracks showing or butt cheeks might be some people's idea of indecent. Whereas, shirts with pictures of blood and anti war protests don't rate a second glance, much less getting one kicked out of a mall. Yet an old man with such a tshirt is discriminated against. And that's OK with you?

Tell it to the girls parents, if they let it happen and the mall patron do not complain, then there is no problem. Big difference, cleavage versus blood/n gore. Some cities are telling kids to pull up their pants and no more showing underwear, so some are making progress. Apples and oranges arguement, well actually your end is more like koolaid.

It's not discrimination when he violates building rules and patrons complain, then the guy makes a fuss which is creating a public disturbance, passing out literature violates city codes and building rules. The man went to far so its okay by me if the city and the mall want people to have a pleasant shopping experience rather than be robbed of thier happiness. Should parents have to explain to kids what the shirt means, no, when they are older they'll understand and be able to process the information better.

You are more hypocritcal than me, maybe you like to break the law and violate/offend the public in public places. Or would you prefer others do it while you sit back and let them demonsrate, aka the ole double standard.

It wasn't a lib kicking the guy out of the mall. Nor was the guy protesting Victoria Secret ads on television.

So you know which party they belong too? Psychic LadyMod
Libs run many TV networks, they approved VS ads, I don't mind them
hell I can name a 5 models on sight, but parents object, yet the ads roll
on..................... and on.

Bigfoot. Go take some meds. You draw parallels where none exist and then try to start fights about it.

The thread wasn't about rappers either. It was an old man wearing a graphic war protest t-shirt, whom the mall decided to censor. God forbid that anyone be reminded of a senseless war that we have sacrificed 4,000 and counting of our young people to, millions of innocent Iraqi citizens to, and the respect the United States once had on this planet to. God forbid anyone quietly wears a tshirt reminding us of our failure and cost in Iraq. :rolleyes:

He'll get off if he get's a decent lawyer. This is nothing more than pure censorship by the sheeple.


Lady Mod


.

[disrupter]

bigfootzx,
the truth about a war our nation is engaged in & people are being shielded from by the corporate press is going too far?

Maybe telling the truth, 'there are no WMDs in Iraq' is going too far too?

War is serious,
Get fucking real.

These are the same people who will be killed in any resulting attack against America,
If they are so moronic they want to live in a bubble,
maybe we, with half a mind, should not be surprised when that bubble gets violently burst.

I for one do not want to be just another idiot American.

There is no constitutional amendment guaranteeing the 'right to be an idiot'.

[bigfootzx]

Bigfoot. Go take some meds. You draw parallels where none exist and then try to start fights about it.

The thread wasn't about rappers either. It was an old man wearing a graphic war protest t-shirt, whom the mall decided to censor. God forbid that anyone be reminded of a senseless war that we have sacrificed 4,000 and counting of our young people to, millions of innocent Iraqi citizens to, and the respect the United States once had on this planet to. God forbid anyone quietly wears a tshirt reminding us of our failure and cost in Iraq. :rolleyes:

He'll get off if he get's a decent lawyer. This is nothing more than pure censorship by the sheeple.


Lady Mod


.


No, not a fight, a debate you disagree with. Go buy a T-shirt and print some brochures and take a trip to the mall. Will they allow solicting ? Or ask you to leave ? Maybe if they throw you out and make a scene, then you hire a civil rights lawyer ??


I think half naked women should cover up. Is anyone going to tell those girls to put some more clothes on or leave the mall?

Not in a million years. Skimpy clothes are acceptable, tshirts with bloody pictures isn't. What hypocrisy.

Lady Mod

I can draw parallels, you opened the door to parallels, not me! Check the facts. Skimpy clothes = parallel Want to borrow some MEDS!! You need'um more than me. Buy a shirt, get thrown out, then call the ACLU! Maybe you could sing a rap song about the war? j/k

[LadyMod at scam.com]

No, not a fight, a debate you disagree with. Go buy a T-shirt and print some brochures and take a trip to the mall. Will they allow solicting ? Or ask you to leave ? Maybe if they throw you out and make a scene, then you hire a civil rights lawyer ??

The article said he stopped distributing the brochures, which was wrong without permission. However, he got called on for the t-shirt. Excuse me but, the mall has no right to tell someone their clothing is unacceptable unless it's states someplace publicly that wearing such articles is unacceptable. Usually it's worded "No shoes, no shirt allowed."


I can draw parallels, you opened the door to parallels, not me! Check the facts. Skimpy clothes = parallel Want to borrow some MEDS!! You need'um more than me. Buy a shirt, get thrown out, then call the ACLU! Maybe you could sing a rap song about the war? j/k


Yes, but I didn't run with it. And I don't need the ACLU to defend my civil rights. I do that just fine on my own. But if you can find what his shirt looked like I'll gladly get one of my own and parade it all over the mall for ya.


Lady Mod

[bigfootzx]

The article said he stopped distributing the brochures, which was wrong without permission. However, he got called on for the t-shirt. Excuse me but, the mall has no right to tell someone their clothing is unacceptable unless it's states someplace publicly that wearing such articles is unacceptable. Usually it's worded "No shoes, no shirt allowed."


Yes, but I didn't run with it. And I don't need the ACLU to defend my civil rights. I do that just fine on my own. But if you can find what his shirt looked like I'll gladly get one of my own and parade it all over the mall for ya.


Lady Mod

You know I wondered about the shirt too, the media censored it. To sell or solicit in malls you have to get permission first, I bet he walked in assuming it was okay. Out on the street I don't have a problem with with him. Buy a shirt, get thrown out, go to court, win and go buy a Rolls Royce!!:happy: