One for Discussion on Free Speech

[Linkster]

http://carryabigsticker.com/bush_lied_shirt.htm#history

Basically the guys sell a t-shirt thats got the names of the fallen soldiers in real tiny writing allover the shirt (yep all of the names) and then in big letters - BUSH LIED on the front - THEY DIED on the back
Two states have already made it illegal to sell this shirt and now congress (Dems sponsoring) are getting ready to make it illegal to sell this t-shirt - as well as any product with a fallen servicemans name on it

Kind of weird if you remember the cartoon in the Atlanta paper that was made up of 2000 of the names - and they sell reproductions of it for around $300 a piece with no repercussion

More importantly though - I see this as a clampdown on free speech as there is no guarantee anywhere that I remember that someones name cannot be published - they have been on every commercial cable tv news program, heck I remember little walls of "remembrence" and those companies are definitely "for profit"

What do you think? Remember I dont care a damn about whether its the "patriotic" thing to do or the politically correct thing to do - I want to know from a free speech slant as those things have nothing to do with free speech as far as Im concerned

[Abnormalia]

Major clamp down on free speech. This is utter bullshit.

He even admits he doesn't make much if any of a profit.

[stefan segal]

Linkster...sending a kid home from school for his T-shirt saying "peace" on it, is in the same league as this shirt.

Since the loss of habeous corpus and the instituting of a quasi martial law, I believe those in control are anxious for law cases that if lost, would not adversely effect them, but if won, would define some new "legal" area of counter-constitutional control, thus far ill defined.

In other words, offer up some outrageous law challenging the first amendment, go through the challenges,, and if the public outrage is not too much...do the victim name T-shirt law to suppress all mention in print of any critique whichalso includes a named fead soldier...either in the printed news or published book...all writers-cum-perps, risking unknown jepardy.

On the bright side ( we always like to include a little sunlight into the gloom), if you come-to in a puddle of your own blood, to dicover your front door kicked in, your dog shot dead, your computer carried off, and the pressing need for dental reconstructive surgery...you can rest easy in the confidence that those protecting us from terror aren't going to "disappear you"...in other words, you don't account for much more than an irretant in their view, and not worth the shipping and feeding in one of their prison work camps.

Stefan



Atefan

[Betty Blowtorch]

It's ridiculous that lawmakers are outlawing
this shirt. Clearly the message on this shirt
is protected political speech.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6254/bushliedresizesmallermr4.gif


The picture below shows a close-up of Bush's face
made of hundreds of portraits of dead US soldiers.
This picture has been on the internet for a couple
of years. I don't think it's been outlawed.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/861/bringemmonkeyyu5.jpg


Lots of people have been wearing the
"Worst President Ever" T-shirt.
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6247/wpenikkidp6.jpg

Wearing clothing with political messages is protected under
the US Supreme Court decision, Cohen v. California (1971)
which ruled that it was constitutionally protected speech
for a guy to walk into a courthouse wearing a jacket with
the words "Fuck the Draft" on it.

[Moby]

It seems that such a ban is a direct attack on free speech. Selling the shirt and wearing it in a public area would seem to be a Constitutional Right. I don't think I agree about sending a kid home from public school for wearing something with a political statement on it though.

I purchased a shirt. I don't think I'll ever wear it but I'll save for history sake. 20 years from now after PNAC has taken over this country and I'm living in a free land, probably in the ex-soviet block, I'll make sure that my daughter sees the shirt and understands why free speech is so important.

[Betty Blowtorch]

I purchased a shirt. I don't think I'll ever wear it
but I'll save for history sake.
You should wear it out in public, Moby. You might be surprised
at the positive responses you receive. I wouldn't recommend
wearing it to a redneck bar, however. You don't want to get
into any altercations with drunken Rush Limbaugh fans.

Wear it for a day and tell us what responses you got.

[Moby]

You should wear it out in public, Moby. You might be surprised
at the positive responses you receive. I wouldn't recommend
wearing it to a redneck bar, however. You don't want to get
into any altercations with drunken Rush Limbaugh fans.

Wear it for a day and tell us what responses you got.
I live in an area where they want to stop teaching science and start teaching Intelligent Design. People around here actually believe that God talks to people and tells them to amass huge amounts of wealth instead of helping the poor. They think that Jesus would approve of war and that a member of the Bush family could actually follow the teachings of the son of God.

They're very far right and that means don't educate yourself, fear God and hate everything that you don't understand.

I'll wear it the next time I visit my friends in Washington, DC but not here.

[Betty Blowtorch]

I live in an area where they want to stop teaching science
and start teaching Intelligent Design. People around here
actually believe that God talks to people and tells them to
amass huge amounts of wealth instead of helping the poor.
They think that Jesus would approve of war and that a member
of the Bush family could actually follow the teachings of the
son of God.

They're very far right and that means don't educate yourself,
fear God and hate everything that you don't understand.
Wow. What the hell is going on in this country? We're so advanced
in many areas, but so backward in other ways.

I noticed that you repeatedly mentioned religion in your post. I can't
help but wonder if religion is causing more harm than good. During the
Dark Ages, religion was a powerful force holding back the advance of
science, knowledge and tolerance of other people's differing beliefs.
Sounds like the same shit is still happening right here in the U.S.
in the 21st century.

It's a shame.

[Moby]

My shirt came in. It's actually beautiful and the detail is impressive. I'm putting it away for safe keeping.

[Caskey_91]

http://carryabigsticker.com/bush_lied_shirt.htm#history

Basically the guys sell a t-shirt thats got the names of the fallen soldiers in real tiny writing allover the shirt (yep all of the names) and then in big letters - BUSH LIED on the front - THEY DIED on the back
Two states have already made it illegal to sell this shirt and now congress (Dems sponsoring) are getting ready to make it illegal to sell this t-shirt - as well as any product with a fallen servicemans name on it

Kind of weird if you remember the cartoon in the Atlanta paper that was made up of 2000 of the names - and they sell reproductions of it for around $300 a piece with no repercussion

More importantly though - I see this as a clampdown on free speech as there is no guarantee anywhere that I remember that someones name cannot be published - they have been on every commercial cable tv news program, heck I remember little walls of "remembrence" and those companies are definitely "for profit"

What do you think? Remember I dont care a damn about whether its the "patriotic" thing to do or the politically correct thing to do - I want to know from a free speech slant as those things have nothing to do with free speech as far as Im concerned

The Constitution states that you have the freedom to speak and say what you want unless it damages a person's reputation. I don't think it was wise to produce that T-Shirt because the whole event is a controversial issue and a very touchy one when it comes to the fallen. If anything they should at least try and get a familys consent before doing this. They can be opening themselves to a ton of lawsuits.

[kres24GT]

Yet more proof Americans don't want to be free.

Get used to it, we are moving closer to closer to a statist government, and are going to have a statist presidential candidate in 08 in Hillary.

[Mr. Blue]

Yep it is an attack on freedom of speech, but I wonder how many people really support the full spirit of that freedom.

It's been my experience that most people have a selective application when it comes to freedom of speech. Some will support freedom of speech only when it's a topic near and dear to them, but are more than willing to jump ship when the freedom is applied to an odious topic. It's this type of selective free speech that will slowly erode the power of that freedom.

[kres24GT]

Yep it is an attack on freedom of speech, but I wonder how many people really support the full spirit of that freedom.

It's been my experience that most people have a selective application when it comes to freedom of speech. Some will support freedom of speech only when it's a topic near and dear to them, but are more than willing to jump ship when the freedom is applied to an odious topic. It's this type of selective free speech that will slowly erode the power of that freedom.


Most people have selective application of all freedom. When they agree someone should be free to do something, they are in favor of freedom. When they don't agree, they oppose freedom and claim best interest overrides freedom.

[Caskey_91]

Yet more proof Americans don't want to be free.

Get used to it, we are moving closer to closer to a statist government, and are going to have a statist presidential candidate in 08 in Hillary.

Oh don't get me wrong I want to be free. I enjoy and take most of my freedoms for advantage. It's just in some cases like this it just seems morally wrong. I mean say if you where one of these fallen servicemen would you want your name paraded along to make an example of how bad a president Bush is.

I sure as hell wouldn't be. Freedom of speech is a very open ended and loaded statement.

[Mr. Blue]

Oh don't get me wrong I want to be free. I enjoy and take most of my freedoms for advantage. It's just in some cases like this it just seems morally wrong. I mean say if you where one of these fallen servicemen would you want your name paraded along to make an example of how bad a president Bush is.

I sure as hell wouldn't be. Freedom of speech is a very open ended and loaded statement.

Well, Freedom of Speech has to be open ended. I agree, personally I find this tasteless and as an individual I'd not buy a t-shirt like this because I do try to empathize with the families.

Still, Free speech has to be unfettered. Let's say the KKK made up a t-shirt that was of a provocative nature. A lot of people would be jumping up and down to have that shirt pulled and it would have very few supporters complaining that it was a case of free speech. However, it is a case of free speech and even though I find the KKK repugnant, I'd still support their right to free speech.

The interesting thing about America though, even now with an assault on our freedoms...compared to the rest of the world our freedom of speech is one of the most liberal. If you look at freedom of speech in other countries you'd be surprised just how free we are in comparison.

[kres24GT]

Oh don't get me wrong I want to be free. I enjoy and take most of my freedoms for advantage. It's just in some cases like this it just seems morally wrong. I mean say if you where one of these fallen servicemen would you want your name paraded along to make an example of how bad a president Bush is.

I sure as hell wouldn't be. Freedom of speech is a very open ended and loaded statement.


I cam home alive, but what I want is irrelevant. I don't think my personal wishes should contradict other people's freedoms.

[exarmyranger]

Worth more to some:punchballs:than others:help:! Yep it is an attack on freedom of speech, but I wonder how many people really support the full spirit of that freedom.

It's been my experience that most people have a selective application when it comes to freedom of speech. Some will support freedom of speech only when it's a topic near and dear to them, but are more than willing to jump ship when the freedom is applied to an odious topic. It's this type of selective free speech that will slowly erode the power of that freedom.Yo Mr.Blue,I concour with you,unfortunalty that "just ignore it and it will probably go away"attitude is correct when applied to our freedom,and personal
libertys...The fact that the men who signed the Constitution,had risked thier fortune's,and thier live's,to gain independence,hoped this document,along with The Bill of Rights.Would keep the spirit/will,they poccessed for Liberty,alive in the generations yet to come.A true Patriot George Washington,when he suggested a (maximum two terms as President) must have sensed the growing complacentcy of the people,towards,government and must have thought a two term limit would slow if not stop the gleaning of the constitution by thier lected leader(s).But proposed revision's to both documents ,Were not met with much,if any opposistion,or demands for explanations as to why this,or that need's to be amended...The peoples complacent posture,allowed,The Rape of the mother of democracy to begin.Still,Peoples apathetic attitude seemed to grow,as individual libertys,promised within the constitution were amended/revized to the point where thier intended meaning(s)were lost...But rather than speak...,or act...if not heard.As is suggested within the Constitution it's self (2nd amendment;article ?)the people remained silent.An apathetic complacent population was clearing the path for more assaults on our nations guarantee of Liberty...In less than twenty years.The son's of our founding fathers,son's...those who were endowed with the resourses,social, financial,to attain political post's within executive/legislative branch's of gov.Followed in thier footsteps,rewording/rephraising oringinal text(s)as well as the ommition of text deemed by the gov.as being without merit,or coverd under some recent legislative act.(in a more concise manner...of course!)Hell Mr.Blue the government(and the powerfull men within the public eye,and those who whisper to them from behind the curtain's main(only for some)goal is to gather more,(more power,more dollars,more influence,ect.)Not to insure the rights,freedoms,or libertys,of the silent majority,why should they when we have (as a whole) made it clear to them we have lost any of the passion,bravery,that was/is needed to resist,further attempts to obstruct us in our Pursuit of Happiness.We have taken our hard won independence,and the freedoms that our forefathers envisioned for granted,for far too long...We have given away/abandond our rights to many individual libertys...They were not stolen!What change's would occur,if the people did unite,and somehow successfully overthrew the executive/legislative/judiscial,branches of our government,and the militarys high command.think our troubles will disappear,the only result would be chaos.The propoganda catch phrase could be."ANARCHIST's UNITE" an oxymoron perhap's,but so is "MILITARY INTELLEGINCE"...T/C EX.

[exarmyranger]

:thumbsup: Well, Freedom of Speech has to be open ended. I agree, personally I find this tasteless and as an individual I'd not buy a t-shirt like this because I do try to empathize with the families.

Still, Free speech has to be unfettered. Let's say the KKK made up a t-shirt that was of a provocative nature. A lot of people would be jumping up and down to have that shirt pulled and it would have very few supporters complaining that it was a case of free speech. However, it is a case of free speech and even though I find the KKK repugnant, I'd still support their right to free speech.

The interesting thing about America though, even now with an assault on our freedoms...compared to the rest of the world our freedom of speech is one of the most liberal. If you look at freedom of speech in other countries you'd be surprised just how free we are in comparison.:thumbsup: Too bad we could'nt have freedom drills.. like take away all the independent radio,tv,newspapers,and put only approved by the government programs/world news reports FOR ONE WEEK!Maybe then a few will get the point...ex