A topic needing debate

[stefan segal]

The question is bush's requirement of winning the Iraq conflict as the sole acceptable outcome...I believe needs serious consideration of what that actually means on the gorund.

Winning is a zero sum game in bush parlence. We win...they loose.

To "win" when the fight is idiological, is a position that must be continually enforced...else one must fight the same war again and again.

To win therefore, is not aimed at an end game, but rather at a more effective occupation that can manage to intimidate opposition (whose position is not altered by momentary defeat), to keep their mouths shut an their heads down.

What is shocking to me is that clown can speak publically about his intentions to win the war...when it is obvious that to "win" the war, all Iraqis must be either killed or threatened into submission.

No american who can rightfully claim the distinction, would vote in favor of perenial occupation of Iraq...at least thats the level of my present delusional state.

What is your take on it...lipstick on a pig...bang out the stars and strips forever???

Is there another way to look at this situation?

My belief is that this thing can be settled only by rebuilding their infrastructure and their faith in the security of law and order, and sitting down to hash out their problems with us...other than the obvious...yanqui go home.

Stefan

[Linkster]

Stefan - I hope you dont really believe that he means to win the war in Iraq - he is just equating "war" with "evil" and that is done to appeal to the conservative christian base in the good vs evil scenario that they can identify with
He's already been told he cant win in Iraq and he has no intention of doing that - he's just keeping it going till he can get the heck out of dodge

[stefan segal]

Linkster...what you are saying is a sane assessment of the situation, but we are dealing with bush...would you bet your or anyone else's kid's life on bush's sanity?

I'm not so glib as to brush what he says aside...you know he's on a part-time mission from god ( full time for carlylse ) and his motives aren't for the good of this country...he may dream, while sitting on the toilet fondling himself, of the glory days of the apocholypse [I need a spell checker...bad!].

Stefan

[Tickler]

Wanna win? Turn the middle east into a parking lot.:taunt:

[Linkster]

stefan - nope - Im simply saying that he has no power over the military thank goodness and fortunately we have some military generals that have at least a good head on their shoulders that will keep butting up against Rumsfeld until he gives in - just like vietnam worked out - just had to get past one very stubborn general first

[stefan segal]

Linkster...from you mouth to god's rear...I hope you're right...we'll just have to bet our life on it.

On another note, you were talking about a now November surprise...how are the surprise options in this scenerio? Maybe cheney for president of a wholly hand picked set of conspirators right out of haliburton?

Stefan

http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/post911/secretgov/cbs030202.html

'Shadow Government' News To Congress
CBS News
March 2, 2002



WASHINGTON- Key congressional leaders say they didn’t know President Bush had established a “shadow government,” moving dozens of senior civilian managers to secret underground locations outside Washington to ensure that the federal government could survive a devastating terrorist attack on the nation's capital, The Washington Post says in its Saturday editions.

Senate Majority Leader Thomas A. Daschle (D-S.D.) told the Post he had not been informed by the White House about the role, location or even the existence of the shadow government that the administration began to deploy the morning of the Sept. 11 hijackings.

An aide to House Minority Leader Richard A. Gephardt (D-Mo.) said he was also unaware of the administration's move.

Among Congress's GOP leadership, aides to House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (Ill.), second in line to succeed the president if he became incapacitated, and to Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott (Miss.) said they were not sure whether they knew.

Aides to Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D-W. Va.) said he had not been told. As Senate president pro tempore, he is in line to become president after the House speaker.

Mr. Bush acknowledged yesterday that the administration had taken extensive measures to guarantee "the continuity of government," adding, “This is serious business.”

Such an operation was conceived as a Cold War precaution against nuclear attack during the Eisenhower administration but never used until now. It went into effect in the first hours after the terror attacks and has evolved over time, said senior government officials who provided details of the plan.

Without confirming details of the government-in-waiting, Mr. Bush told reporters in Iowa: "We take the continuity of government issue seriously because our nation was under attack. And I still take the threats we receive from al Qaeda killers and terrorists very seriously."

"I have an obligation as the president and my administration has an obligation to the American people to put measures in place that should somebody be successful in attacking Washington there is an ongoing government," Mr. Bush said. "That is one reason why the vice president was going to undisclosed locations. This is serious business. And we take it seriously."

[TijuanaPat]

Hey stefan segal I just read the last paragraph in that link you posted and my gut dropped below my balls.

“The two sites of the shadow government make use of local geological features to render them highly secure, the Post said. They are well stocked with food, water, medicine and other consumable supplies, and are capable of generating their own power.”

[stefan segal]

Pat...it's worse than I thought...you mess with cheney and the game's over...that is one paranoid dude.

When I was writing a daily piece, I noticed a small article about cheney's neighbors complaining about the noise and the tremors shaking their houses into the night...it seems cheney dug down into his basement very deep, because they were blasting for at least two months, to make a bunker like his mentor adolf...he's under the impression that a lot of people would like to see him have a stroke or whatever...and it makes him paranoid...and a most dangerous man.

He does have a clear assessment of the situation...I guess that's why he's a leader...who has to hide in a bunker fearful for his life.

Stefan

[Moby]

Linkster is right. Dubya has never had a plan for winning the war in Iraq. As I've been saying since he got elected, he would go to war and base his presidency off the war. He will make grotesque amounts of money during this time.

He's already stated that it is not up to him to get us out of Iraq. That is for the next President. He may make a play to stay on for another term so that he can get out us out of Iraq but I don't think so. He's raped the American people badly, someone needs to heal the wounds and his brother can run in 2012 or 2016.

There is no winning Iraq unless we install an all powerful dictator like the guy we removed. There was never a plan to win. He has avoided even defining our goals and objectives. According to him the mission was accomplished when Saddam was gone and friends of PNAC could take over the oil. Nothing more.

If the next President is going to win in Iraq they will either have to split it up (yes that means Iran gets some) or install a powerful dictator.

They're going to bail and let the dems try to fix the mess that Dubya has made. It will be difficult and once we're on the painful road of healing they will blame the dems for trying to stabilize out debt and Iraq. That's when the final Bush takes office and that's when you're going to wish there wasn't a fence to keep you from running into Mexico.

[Abnormalia]

Political figures being placed in secure locations in case of an attack/massively destructive event? Naawwwww.

Why does this seem so unusual? For crying out loud, then even stocked those bunkers with food?? And water?? MY HEAVENS!

Nice 4 1/2 year old article there.

At the very least it begs the question: Are those bunkers resistant to the bunker buster bombs that our country has developed?

I wish I was as paranoid as you folks somedays, really! It gives you that same feeling of being in the basement during a tornado warning, all safe and snug, feeling a part of something larger, bigger. I miss feeling like the world was anything but the ordinary mess it now appears to be.

[Moby]

Political figures being placed in secure locations in case of an attack/massively destructive event? Naawwwww.

Why does this seem so unusual? For crying out loud, then even stocked those bunkers with food?? And water?? MY HEAVENS!

Nice 4 1/2 year old article there.

At the very least it begs the question: Are those bunkers resistant to the bunker buster bombs that our country has developed?

I wish I was as paranoid as you folks somedays, really! It gives you that same feeling of being in the basement during a tornado warning, all safe and snug, feeling a part of something larger, bigger. I miss feeling like the world was anything but the ordinary mess it now appears to be.
Just because you don't fully understand what you read, does that mean that no one understands it?

Is it that you don't have enough mental capacity to discuss issues like a rational adult or just not enough experience in the real world?

The issue isn't that a shadow government is being setup. If you read the article again maybe you'll understand the issue. Never mind, I don't think you can so here's the summary.

Bush is picking and choosing the people without any input from other branches of congress. Basically he's bypassing the checks and balances and selecting the government for us. He can then declare a state of emergency and install his own government made up of family, friends and financial supporters.

[Linkster]

Ya know - Ive been thinking a little about this lately - instead of the big massive terror attack or other "surprise" that Rove is always relied upon to push the election to Reps - Im wondering if there isnt something a little more subtle going on - seems weird that no one from the administration is voicing opposition to the voting machine problems like you would expect them to
Almost like they are letting that problem fester in the publics mind - which would be a great setup for a declaration of loss of confidence in the voting process leading to a perfectly legal basis for a 25th amendment attempt at Bush by Cheney - the talk of a huge split in the administration has been festering for weeks - and someone is going to be tossed out - but from which side???

[stefan segal]

Linkster...I've had that same feeling...but I don't think rove is involved...I think it's all cheney. I think cheney is feeding our imbecile president to the grinder of public opinion without his cloak of invisabliity...allowing butch to be viewed powered by his own IQ so he will be removed for mental health reasons leaving cheney defacto president, leading his government from his undisclosed location...ie the rat hole he spends half his time in training his government in anger management to prepare them for prime time...
[Moby...you have the patience of a saint...]

Read this (partial) artical...it's really spooky...when you remember he's got his finger on the button.

Stefan

http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/2006/110206CARMICHAEL.html

Rogue President
by MICHAEL CARMICHAEL
While America has suffered through rogue presidencies in its past— Pierce, Polk, Buchanan, Grant, McKinley, Harding, Coolidge, Hoover, Nixon and Reagan—it has never suffered quite as horribly; quite as tragically; quite as fatefully or quite as expensively as it is now suffering under the presidency of George W. Bush.

OCTOBER 25, 2006--The president seems confused. After making a curious remark observing that the war in Iraq was placing a strain on the psyche of America, President Bush has become the primary focus of concerns about a strained psyche.

Last week, the president uttered more than one oracular pronouncement. First he acquiesced to the analogy that has been on everyone’s lips since well before the launch of the Iraq War—Does Iraq resemble Vietnam?

In an interview with George Stephanopoulos, President Bush agreed that the Ramadan offensive in Iraq smacks of the Tet offensive of 1968.

Later, in another interview, President Bush stunned America with his pronouncement that he had never said that the US would “stay the course” in Iraq.

After recovering several verbatim transcripts of the president’s use of the exact phraseology that he now believes he never uttered, American pundits are puzzled by this expanding enigma enveloping the president’s personal discourse. What will he say next?

That question was answered today, when President Bush addressed a small group at the White House with fifteen minutes of remarks during which he admitted he was now “dissatisfied” with American progress in Iraq.

Apparently, the President is dissatisfied that no weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) were discovered in Iraq.

The loss of nearly 3,000 American lives and the disturbing growth in the insurgency now appear to be factors adding to the president’s dissatisfaction.

From that point in his White House talk, the President veered off into a rambling statement that quite simply defies definition.

President Bush said that he would stay in Iraq until the “job is done” and “we cannot allow our dissatisfaction to turn into disillusionment about our purpose in this war,” followed by an order aimed at the American people to disbelieve what he described as “enemy propaganda.”

From that mystifying turn of phrase, President Bush assured his audience in the White House, “I know the American people understand the stakes in Iraq.

They want to win. They will support the war as long as they see a clear path to victory.”

Why is the president allowed to blather on and on about facts that fly in the face of reality?

From this melange of mystification, it is now perfectly clear that President Bush has not read the newspapers for the past seven days—neither is he aware of the latest polls from America’s heartland.

The American people have lost confidence in his rogue presidency. Now, two out of three Americans believe that his presidency is a rapidly mushrooming disaster. By a two-to-one margin, American voters believe that the Democrats are better suited to deal with national security issues and terrorism than the Republicans.

Why has nobody in the White House told the President that his policies in general—and his war in particular—are now unacceptable to the American people? Why is the president allowed to blather on and on about facts that fly in the face of reality?

[Abnormalia]

No, i'm making fun of your paranoia about a "V for Vendetta" sort of world that awaits us.

Current events still scare the hell out of me, but I take them with a grain of salt. The worst enemy of a corrupt government can be itself. The other enemy is public opinion.

It just 'feels' like something big is happening. Something big is happening- the election is coming up, and Bush is backpedaling on things he has said over and over. How funny would it be to see Bush have a real mental breakdown while in office? The first president to commit suicide? Funny? No, but not impossible. That's my 'conspiracy possibility' for now.

This "All Powerful Government" thing is simply not true. I say this a lot, but not online: I'm glad to be alive in such interesting times.