So Israel Feels its OK to Kill UN Observers?

[Linkster]

Since we now know this wasnt a mistake and that the blue helmet peacekeepers from China, Finland, Canada, and Austria that were killed were deliberately targetted using satellite tracking systems provided to Israel by the US - is this just a repeat of what Israel did to the US in 1967?
For those of you too young to remember - google the USS Liberty - although youll probably find a bunch of BS - the real story out there is that the US had a ship monitoring Israel comms during the war in 1967(the Navy uses NSA spooks occasionally to do this) - and we intercepted communications that Israel had just massacred all of their Egyptian POWs instead of following the Geneva conventions and inprisoning them - they didnt feel that they had to follow that convention (sound familiar?) so they just killed them all instead while they were captives.
Getting back to the USS Liberty - Israel found out we had intercepted their comms about that and sent jets to attack the USS Liberty - after the first wave of attacks the ship raised a large US flag so that the pilots could see it plainly - the pilots turned around and attacked a second time - when the survivors were in the water (both Navy and NSA personnel) the pilots turned for a third time and came back and used machine guns to try to mow down the American sailors.

[Mr. Blue]

So what's the reason? I'm asking because I often inject the "commonsense factor" in an action and it doesn't seem like it would be in the best interest for Israel to deliberately attack the UN Observers.


Israel is getting beaten up in the media - to a large extent unfairly.
Hezbollah is basically spinning the media - civilian casualties, sure there's going to be civilian casualties because they're a terrorist organization hiding amongst the civilians
Hezzy is more or less a terrorist arm of the Iranian / Syrian Governments.
The UN is already pissed at Israel with that worthless Koffi Annan leading the way
There will probably be even more scrutiny now...so it's not like killing a few observers will stop the UN and it definitely won't stop the media.


Now, I find it difficult to believe that Israel would want to piss people off further by diliberately attacking UN troops. It just flies in the face of commonsense. I'm open-minded though...so if you can give me a good "Why would they do it and how would it benefit them?" I'd be more than happy to consider the possibilities.

As of now I just don't see any benefits for Israel by deliberately attacking UN observers.

[Linkster]

The only viable reason that comes to mind - and has been reported in the non-mainstream non-US press - is that the UN post that was attacked was relaying information back to the UN in New York about some atrocities that were occuring in attacks by Israel on civilians (non-Hezbolli types) - the deliberateness is just what the head of the UN has labelled it.

Some side info (in case you were not aware of it) our representative at the UN (Bolton) is trying his best to get the US out of the UN and has gone so far as to openly proclaim that the top 10 floors of the UN building ought to be destroyed.(note he is actually not a permanent assignment - the Senate has a few problems with him and he's in hearings again to see if they will let him continue)

[Kinky Jones]

2 captured soldiers is the equivalent to 9/11 in Isreal I guess... they are acting like we did after 9/11... I was with them against palestine but they are going way overboard IMO in Lebanon... just like we jumped ship from Afghanistan and went after after Iraq full tilt instead

[docholly]

- and has been reported in the non-mainstream non-US press -

Let's not forget that we are also still living with 2 generations (mine and the one before me) that lived in a "restricted" society and there are still people who would like to, for whatever their reasons, like to see both Israel and the Jews eliminated. The spin is on and i'm not saying that your sources are doing that Linkster, I just can remember going to Miami with my friend charlene and she wasn't allowed to attend a cocktail party at La Gorce in Miami because it was a "restricted" country club cirra 1977.

The fact remains, just like in Iraq, Bosnia, Vietnam, etc.. that war is not healthy to children and all other living creatures..blue hats or not.

And my now ex husband--a gps programmer for the navy--is sitting on a ship off the coast of Haifa, programming coordinates. It's probably his fault.. (i kidded him when our 'payload' went wrong and we hit that civilian bridge in Bosnia) he hates the color blue.

[Mr. Blue]

The only viable reason that comes to mind - and has been reported in the non-mainstream non-US press - is that the UN post that was attacked was relaying information back to the UN in New York about some atrocities that were occuring in attacks by Israel on civilians (non-Hezbolli types) - the deliberateness is just what the head of the UN has labelled it.

Some side info (in case you were not aware of it) our representative at the UN (Bolton) is trying his best to get the US out of the UN and has gone so far as to openly proclaim that the top 10 floors of the UN building ought to be destroyed.(note he is actually not a permanent assignment - the Senate has a few problems with him and he's in hearings again to see if they will let him continue)

Now, I don't buy that because the mainstream media has been pretty much eating out of Hezbollah's hand when it comes to showing the terrorist side of the equation and the civilian casualties. There's reporters basically all over the area, I'm surprised none of them have gotten killed by accident, but I seriously doubt that Israel is causing atrocities without it being noticed. So, I'm sticking with the fact that there's a big commonsense type error in the equations that Israel did it on purpose.

Secondly, I hate to say this, but I agree with Bolton, The UN has more or less been a worthless organization for the past decade and I'm not really sure what benefit the U.S. is getting by being part of it and by paying the lion's share of it's operating expenses.

[Mr. Blue]

2 captured soldiers is the equivalent to 9/11 in Isreal I guess... they are acting like we did after 9/11... I was with them against palestine but they are going way overboard IMO in Lebanon... just like we jumped ship from Afghanistan and went after after Iraq full tilt instead

If the U.S. responded like the Israeli responded on a few occassions, 9/11 might not have happened. Don't forgot the embassy bombings in Africa. Our big response back then was blowing up a pharmacy. Then again, at the time the media and the Reps, were too wrapped up in whether or not Bubba was getting some action from an intern.

[Linkster]

OK - Ill try to make this as nice as possible - the mainstream media eating out of Hezbollahs hands - not a chance - they are reporting what the White House staff puts together as allowable news - and what Lebanon allows to be reported

Go back to the initial incident to see what really happened by knowing a little history - two soldiers from Israel go into Lebanon and get captured - happens all the time and the normal response by Lebanon over the last 10 years has always been the same - they offer a trade of the soldiers to Israel and Israel gives something in return. They did the same thing this time, however Israel responded a little different - they sent a tank in to "negotiate the release"
That tank hit a land mine accidently and killed all 4 Israeli soldiers on board - however Israel was of the impression (or had planned in advance) that their response now would be to do the same thing they did back in 1978 trying to get rid of the PLO by invading Lebanon and driving out the Shiite Muslims - of course this has the Shiites in Syria, Iran and Iraq up in arms and I wouldnt be surprised to see it escalate considerably - actually the militias that were being trained by the US in Iraq have already started leaving to join Hezbollah

This has been a constant battle that has been going back and forth since 1948 when Arabs first invaded Israel during its formation to prevent the loss of Palestine - and its not going to stop as long as Israel exists - just a fact.

[Linkster]

Some other things you might not remember - when a US barracks was bombed in Beirut in 1983 - that was Hezbollah - not Al-Qaeda as the news media would have you believe - it was a good talking point right after 9/11 but factually incorrect. This was when Hezbollah was formed right after the loss of the PLO hold on Lebanons southern border areas - and is the same Shiite population that has been fighting against the Lebanese Christians all along(since they formed in 1982). The Hezbollah also are a part of the Lebanese government with elected officials from their party - just as the PLO was at one time after their eviction from Jordan.

[MikeP]

Linkster good points, as always the US and Israel believe they are above the rules set for by every other nation they do this when it is convient and hold these same rules up when other countries violate them as atrocities. How long do you feel it will be before other countries stop holding these rules to be rules, and start behaving as badly as the US has behaved to them, think Chili.

[Kinky Jones]

If the U.S. responded like the Israeli responded on a few occassions, 9/11 might not have happened. Don't forgot the embassy bombings in Africa. Our big response back then was blowing up a pharmacy. Then again, at the time the media and the Reps, were too wrapped up in whether or not Bubba was getting some action from an intern.

Clinton wasn't exactly an anti-terrorist expert by any means, but he just got the ball rolling to start the game... we are dealing with guys with AK47s and RPGs in the desert, it took them a few years to punch back... bush completely ignored terrorism until after 9/11 and and is somehow seen by millions as a great leader.... blows my mind... but I was supportive of action to hunt down the ones responsiblefor 9/11, instead we gave a severely half-assed effort and jumped to Iraq... my brother was supposed to go to Afghanistan and last minute got sent to Iraq... that switch has almost ruined his life, the longer he has been home the angrier he has gotten... it breaks my heart and he refuses to seek help because he is a marine... and if even ONE person in dubya's cabinet would have taken the "Bin Laden might be Planning to Attack US Homeland Targets With Airplanes" (http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/phoenix-memo/) seriously then 9/11 shouldn't have happened and most of the shit in the middle east would not be happening :( sorry to ramble off-topic

[Mr. Blue]

OK - Ill try to make this as nice as possible - the mainstream media eating out of Hezbollahs hands - not a chance - they are reporting what the White House staff puts together as allowable news - and what Lebanon allows to be reported

So, The White House is controlling all the media that's coming out of The Middle East / Israel / Lebanon? If that's the case they've done some miserable job controlling the reports coming out of Iraq, especially the Abu Ghraib incident.

So you're saying the UN observers were killed because they would report the truth of some horrific atrocities Israel is committing? It seems more than a little far fetched.

Go back to the initial incident to see what really happened by knowing a little history - two soldiers from Israel go into Lebanon and get captured - happens all the time and the normal response by Lebanon over the last 10 years has always been the same - they offer a trade of the soldiers to Israel and Israel gives something in return. They did the same thing this time, however Israel responded a little different - they sent a tank in to "negotiate the release"
That tank hit a land mine accidently and killed all 4 Israeli soldiers on board - however Israel was of the impression (or had planned in advance) that their response now would be to do the same thing they did back in 1978 trying to get rid of the PLO by invading Lebanon and driving out the Shiite Muslims - of course this has the Shiites in Syria, Iran and Iraq up in arms and I wouldnt be surprised to see it escalate considerably - actually the militias that were being trained by the US in Iraq have already started leaving to join Hezbollah

This has been a constant battle that has been going back and forth since 1948 when Arabs first invaded Israel during its formation to prevent the loss of Palestine - and its not going to stop as long as Israel exists - just a fact.

Well, lets see, Hezbollah is basically an extention of Iran. The new Iranian leader has pretty much said the Holocaust was a myth, he doesn't exactly have good vibes for Israel, and he's developing nukes. Don't you think it's kind of understandable that Israel would respond with much greater force this time?

Personally it's completely understandable to me...create a buffer zone, knee cap Hezbollah for a bit, and no Middle East country is going to step up and outright declare war on Israel. Why should they? They can run terrorist campaigns, mix the terrorists in with the civilian population, and get the world media to cover how evil Israel is for attacking civilian targets.

You say as long as Israel exists there will be conflict. I'll say that as long as fundamentalist religions that teach violent intolerance there will be conflict. If there was no Israel tomorrow, do you think it would stop fundamentalist factions from continuing terrorism? I certainly believe that it would be alive and well and just picking on a new region to focus their attention on.

[Linkster]

1.So, The White House is controlling all the media that's coming out of The Middle East / Israel / Lebanon?
2.So you're saying the UN observers were killed because they would report the truth of some horrific atrocities Israel is committing? It seems more than a little far fetched.
3.Well, lets see, Hezbollah is basically an extention of Iran.
4.You say as long as Israel exists there will be conflict.
If there was no Israel tomorrow, do you think it would stop fundamentalist factions from continuing terrorism?

Ill take these in order -
1. I didnt say the WH was controlling the middle east media - I said in this case (Hezbollah/Lebanon) they are - and that has been referred to by many reporters already - although it also did happen during the beginning phases in Iraq as well according to the imbedded reporters. As far as the prison thing - that was a story that just scratched the surface of atrcities the US is committing in the name of terrorist war - Im not gonna preach - just remember what I said in 5 years :)
2. There are some of us that know what Israels plan is overall - Ive talked about it another thread - and this little incursion is just a small part of the plan that was developed in 1996 - there are also some of us (not conspiracy theorist at all) that believe Israel hired and paid for 9/11 to occur to incite the US (if they werent complicit in it) into the middle east on purpose.
Having lived through the 1960s and 70s when israel was doing much worse things - I have probably a much different perspective than most younger Americans these days
3. Hezbollah is not and never has been an extension of Iran - for that matter they only recently realized they would have to give up their hate of Iranians in order to try to recruit some Shiites from Iraqs military brigades we are training to come fight alongside Hezbollah - otherwise they hated each other for years
4. If you dont understand that all of this (even the attacks against the US) is totally because Israel exists and claims holy lands that the Palestinians feel is thier holy land - then you have missed the big picture - this isnt a little terrorist payback for something that happened recently - this goes back top 1948 when Israel was first formed, then invaded by Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria and Jordan - and plays out to everything Israel has done since then killing millions of Arabs in their bombing attacks on Arab nations - if they didnt exist - the fundamentalists would no longer have a cause - they didnt start hating the US because we were a democracy - they hated us because we gave weapons and nuclear technology to Israel and we continue to - the answer is YES - the terrorism would stop immediately if there was no Israel and no support by the US of Israel

[Mr. Blue]

Ill take these in order -
1. I didnt say the WH was controlling the middle east media - I said in this case (Hezbollah/Lebanon) they are....
2. There are some of us that know what Israels plan is overall....
3. Hezbollah is not and never has been an extension of Iran....
4. If you dont understand that all of this (even the attacks against the US) is totally because Israel exists and claims holy lands that the Palestinians feel is thier holy land - then you have missed the big picture....

Okay, I'll do it by points as well :)

1. Whether atrocities are occurring or not the media in it's lust for ratings would report it. Washington has been ineffectual in covering up anything, if they couldn't control the media in Iraq, they sure as hell wouldn't be able to control it for long in this situation. Again, intentionally killing the UN Observers brings unwanted publicity and now Bush / Blair have called for an International UN lead force to be placed in the region.

If Israel really wanted to get rid of the UN observers, don't you think they could have found a more surgical way of doing it? Like, say, shooting a Hezbollah style rocket at the outpost or doing a better cloak and dagger type coverup? Come now, if you're going to say Israel planned 9/11 then you have to give them some points for creativity and that they would do a better job of eliminating some UN observers.

2. A President allows a foreign power to attack the U.S. so he can go to war. He sets up camps to hold American citizens in prison. He stifles the media, not allowing them to report freely. Am I talking about George Bush or FDR? Actually, in this case, I'm talking about FDR. As long as people have been in power there's been conspiracy theories of all shapes and sizes. I'm sure if I read a lot about the Illumanati I'd be convinced that every leader is part of a big organization to control the world, but I'd rather just watch a movie and get my fiction that way.

3. Hezbollah is currently being supplied by the Iranians and Syrians. Both governments found a way to wage war without having to declare war. If they actually declared war they'd pretty much be handled within a few weeks.

4. Now, I think you might be missing part of the big picture, because you oversimplify the creation of the Israeli state in 1948 and disregard the history of the region and the problems of fundamentalist religions. Here we go:

a) Israel has a long history in the region. It's not like they threw a dart on the map and said, oh cool, let's move to this sandy worthless piece of land. Jews have been in the region for thousands of years. Roman's who got tired of the revolts of the Jews trying to fight for freedom finally removed them from the region. Yes, the got the boot.

b) Much is made of 1948, but Jewish settlers started arriving in the region again around 1890. Now, these first Jewish settlers didn't forceably take the land, they bought the land. Now, citizens of this region, they owned the land they were on, but throughout the 1900-1940 they were being attacked by Arabs. The Jewish population decided that they needed to protect themselves and that got the ball rolling :)

Now, is it fair in your estimation that people should be attacked because they purchased some land and the arabs in the area didn't like it? If arabs were hell bent on keeping the jews out, they shouldn't have sold the land to them. Granted the creation of the Israel state in 1948 certainly didn't help the situation, but at this point I almost view the Israeli situation as much the same as what happened in Texas. Basically it mimics what happened in Texas independence nicely, only difference is, the opposition hasn't given up their fight because of blind hatred taught in their religion (see point c)

c) Ha, you thought I was done. Now you say that Israel is the only reason Fundamentalist Muslims are up in arms. Well, let's look at the Muslim faith by taking some direct quotes from the Koran:


"Jews are the greediest of all humankind."
"Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations."
"Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes."
"For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom."
"Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous."
"Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them."
"Jews and Christians are evil-livers"
Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low."


Those are just the "I hate Jews" quotes...here's a few more:


"War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not."
"Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars."
"Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil."

There's more, but I think you get the point. Now tell me again, if Israel is gone tomorrow...do you honestly think a fundamentalist religion would stop it's terrorist ways? I don't. Religion is the bane of civilized man and will be the undoing of us all. If Israel didn't exist a new goal would be found...one only need to look towards the slums of France to see the seeds of new dissension.