Romney "Freedom requires religion"

[Moby]

What a disappointment this man has become. It's sad that so many Americans hate our Constitution and make a "religious test" for our leaders but when these future leaders claims that you must have religion, they have to go.

This could be appropriate in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran and many place other places in the world but not in a free society.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/06/romney.speech/index.html

By Kristi Keck
CNN

(CNN) -- White House hopeful Mitt Romney on Thursday articulated his position on the role of religion in America, but avoided details about his personal faith.

Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney said "freedom opens the windows of the soul."

Romney, who hopes to become the first Mormon president, said "religious tolerance would be a shallow principle, indeed, if it were reserved only for faiths with which we agree."

"There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution," the former Massachusetts governor said.

"No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith. For if he becomes president he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths."

CNN contributor Bill Bennett said he wasn't sure Romney addressed the concerns voters might have with Mormonism, but, he added, "I don't think he had to."

"I can see this speech he just gave being given by any of the Republican candidates and most of the Democratic candidates, frankly. I'm not sure he was responding to the concern 'what about this Mormon thing?' " Bennett said. "I think he will probably get more questions on it, not fewer."

Another CNN contributor, Roland Martin, said the setting for the speech was a good one -- "in the heart of the Bible Belt." Watch Bennett and Martin debate the effectiveness of Romney's speech »

Romney spoke at former President George H. W. Bush's presidential library at Texas A&M University before a crowd of about 300 people: a combination of friends, family and religious and conservative leaders.

Don't Miss
Expert: Lip service doesn't translate into tolerant voters
Speech brings Romney, JFK comparisons
Romney: Address won't be a 'JFK speech'
Election Center 2008
"What he is trying to say is 'I am a person of faith. Forget the fact what my faith is, that I am a Mormon. You might be Christian. You might be Jewish. I'm a person of faith. I believe in God,' " Martin said.

Romney said religion is essential to freedom, without pointing to any specific faith.

"Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone," the GOP contender said.

.....

[disrupter]

You have to have someone or something to subordinate your free will too?

Lock this guy up in a mental institution along with all the other religious neurotic psychotics.

[Little Red Dog]

Let me tell you, when Mitt says:

"Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions. Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin."

He's lying through his teeth. Church doctrine teaches that NO law is subservient to God's Law. And the President of the Church, Gordon B. Hinkley is divinely ordained by God to guide the decisions of his chosen people (i.e. Mormons. Everyone else - and I mean everyone - is going to hell.)

Additionally, the Church doctrines are, shall we say, "fluid". They've been known to change their hard-line positions when the economic consequences become unavoidable. This is why they changed their doctrine on polygamy. And why they changed their doctrine on black men holding office, only when they realized Africa was a potentially rich and untapped source of potential converts.

However, as anyone who lives in Utah will tell you, for most of Utah (Salt Lake City and Park City are the exceptions) there is NO separation between Church and State.

Never has been. No matter what the founding fathers of this country intended.

This forked-tongue wonder pandered to voters in MA to get himself elected. Now he's pandering to the Christian Right to get himself elected.

Bastard is shameless.

[disrupter]

Voting for 'Romney requires Gullibility'.

your gullibility.

[Cat slave]

Well, is Huckabee any better????? Hes a dough boy on illegal immigrants and
securing our borders. No way in hell would I vote for him. None, which of
course would be a vote for the other side, but I just couldnt hold my nose
tight enough for that character.

:mad:

[UserName]

This forked-tongue wonder pandered to voters in MA to get himself elected. Now he's pandering to the Christian Right to get himself elected.

Bastard is shameless.

It's hard to believe that any "good" christian would support such a man. The Mormon book, The Pearl of Great Price, claims that all other Christian groups are "corrupt" and are an "abomination" in God's sight (Joseph Smith, 2:19).
Why would any christian support a man who's beliefs are in direct contradiction to their own?

[disrupter]

A little birdie told me Cat Slave is favoring Romney?

Could it have chirped up correctly?

[Moby]

Well, is Huckabee any better????? Hes a dough boy on illegal immigrants and
securing our borders. No way in hell would I vote for him. None, which of
course would be a vote for the other side, but I just couldnt hold my nose
tight enough for that character.

:mad:
Has any politician since George H Bush stated that religion is required for anything?

Not even Huckabee.

[radioguy]

May I remind all of you, that Romney was elected governor of one of the most liberal states in the union, and did a fine job.

You know, many of you on the left are doing exactly what our founding fathers left Europe to escape, which is the practice of religious persecution.

There has never been a president in the history of this nation that was agnostic or an atheist. They have all had a belief in God and some measure of religious conviction.

It's obvious that this crusade the left has been on in the last few years against religion, Christianity specifically, is the direct result of BDS... Bush Derangement Syndrome.

[disrupter]

Carpetbagger is the GOP base's adjective they apply to Romney.

I must say, i agree with that descriptive.

One very slippery snake with sinisterly sharp switchbacks.

A Venomous Unpredictable Billionaire.

[Smurf-Herder]

Not that I don't believe Mormonism isn't a cult. (I see no evidence a tribe of Jews crossed the Atlantic and built the pyramids in Central America)

But his main point is having a higher value system, based on a higher ideal - the basics. I'm not saying I want to get into a long theological discussion. I'm just saying I understand what he's getting at.

[disrupter]

He's a stinking slithering liar.

That is why Smurf-Herder & radioguy understand him perfectly.

Liars can recognize lies when they hear them.

[Cat slave]

Everyone has a belief system which could be termed a "religion" even if it is
just their theory that there is no higher power....its a belief system.:p

[disrupter]

The question is,
do you have tangible evidence that backs up your ideas.

Science does.
Religion does not.

Magic or reality.
Irrational faith or rational reason.

I don't practice voodoo, i will stick with science.

But most important question to a candidate:
Which matters more to you? Your Religion or your nation?

Anyone who answers the first has no legitimate business in the Whitehouse.

This is the USA not a Bible, Tora or Koran study group.

If your religion matters more than this nation YOU ARE A TRAITOR. PERIOD.

JUST SAY NO TO RELIGIOUS TRAITORS.

[Cat slave]

If your reply was to me....save your energy....I have you on "ignore".

[disrupter]

Yes, ignorance abounds.

Guess i will put you in that camp, Cat Slave.

Slave to ignorance.
I can only guess Freedom was just too much of a bother.

[Islam Rocks!]

If your religion matters more than this nation YOU ARE A TRAITOR. PERIOD.
.
That is absurd. Most Americans believe that God is soverign over their nation.

By your statement, the vast majority of US citizens would fall into the traitor category.

[disrupter]

Exactly, Islam Rocks.

Just why we are in the very sorry state of affairs we are in.

The president is by DOJ findings of the opinion he IS the law.
No different from any monarch.
If people were dutiful to law & the constitution this kind of criminal absurdity would not arise.

game-set-match,

'adjudicator, bring on the next victim'.

[Islam Rocks!]

Exactly, Islam Rocks.

Just why we are in the very sorry state of affairs we are in.

The president is by DOJ findings of the opinion he IS the law.
No different from any monarch.
If people were dutiful to law & the constitution this kind of criminal absurdity would not arise.

game-set-match,

'adjudicator, bring on the next victim'.I am No fan of Bush and agree that he would like to shred the Constitution. (mainly because the words in it are too hard for him to understand)

I also agree that elected people are to be dutiful to the Constitution and it's laws.

There is nothing wrong in a persons belief in a higher power defining their moral compass and approach to their duties.

Just as long as their personal belief system doesn't get in the way of executing their job and duties as an elected official.

[disrupter]

No, sorry, but i absolutely don't agree.

When the crunch times come there must be no question as to one's loyalties.

We don't allow foreign born citizens to hold the office, & this is far more important than that.

if it were a janitorial position or something ok, ultimate loyalty not required.
but for the president of the United States something more is demanded.
A captain is expected to go down with the ship.
A president must be so committed to the job for at least the 4 years he or she holds it that they really do behave selflessly for that period.

They must do everything in their power when their nation is in the balance. & only after everything foreseeable is done can they take a pause from it for themselves.

If your commitment to reality is not complete you are free to leave.
If your commitment to the Nation as the president of it is not the very first & foremost thing you have no business in that office. PERIOD.

We should expect a president to rise above our commonality, not wallow around in it & beneath it.

The president is not 'our buddy' or 'friend', he is the steward of the nation.
Both to us and all the things that make it livable for us & future Americans.

If we don't hold the presidency & those who occupy the office to those standards we have no business having a nation.

Either you commit to reality or you relegate yourself to lesser beinghood.

Patriotism is about commitment.
Commitment to subtle, sometimes indeterminate things.
Not to flags or other icons, but to both humane & inspired ideals.

The president is the captain that must guide the ship of state through & to the best & most promising realms of possibilities.
Both vigilance & commitment are required.

if you can't measure up, don't apply.

[Islam Rocks!]

All of the Founding Fathers were very religious men who felt guided by a higher power.

They were in "reality".

Your statement that a belief in a diety somehow makes you not 100% in reality is bogus.

[mwillman]

Islam why dont you go back to the madrasa and teach children about the 40 virgins they will get when they die for your religion.

You have stated in another post that you are a wahabbi and most intelligent people know that that school is one of the most corupt and evil schools of islam there is.

Teach lies try to inforce your freaking beleifs on the rest of us and kill people if they dont agree. Everyone of the the 911 terrorist was wahabbi and most moderate Muslins fear you more then christians.

[Islam Rocks!]

Islam why dont you go back to the madrasa and teach children about the 40 virgins they will get when they die for your religion.

You have stated in another post that you are a wahabbi and most intelligent people know that that school is one of the most corupt and evil schools of islam there is.

Teach lies try to inforce your freaking beleifs on the rest of us and kill people if they dont agree. Everyone of the the 911 terrorist was wahabbi and most moderate Muslins fear you more then christians.I really wish people would get the number correct. It's 72!!!

I don't want to get short changed. 72!!!!

[mwillman]

HaHa laugh at the the horrid lies that you teach to children that drive them to do evil for your sick beliefs.

[disrupter]

It puts one's commitment to reality in doubt to say the least.

When those beliefs about it include some paranormal 'explanation', beyond scrutiny or examination it is an open invitation to either fraud, foolishness or both.

We can not risk this nation or globe on potential [likely?] fraud or foolishness,
We must contain it within the realms of certain, if growing, knowledge & the inspired applications of that knowledge base.

I accept that risk is inherent, but recklessness must be avoided.

Adrift in a chaotic abyss, we must be & construct our own 'center' & 'frame of reference'.

Like the ants we must build the 'house of human reality' with ourselves, our souls, our beings. Anything less & humanity likely becomes a stagnant dead end [probable extinction] of life & evolution.

We have the powers of gods & the corruption of the demons at hand & must take careful, scrupulous measures of each that maintain the stable balance of our existence.

We construct something ordered from the noise of chaos. All we have is what we ourselves construct & the inheritance from our forebears.
We build it strong to withstand pressures & strains.

Let us make music to pierce the din.
Ignite the light to piece the fog.
& grasp insight to pierce the ignorance.

apologies, i like to wax on a bit.
I do think there are bits of value there, buried in the froth.
mmm, froth.

[Islam Rocks!]

Disrupter did you take a couple of tokes since your last post?!?!

That's out there Dude!!!!!!!!!!

[disrupter]

did you find anything discreditably non-rational in my presentation?
issues with or questions about it?

or worst, not worth reading?
oh well, i tried.

[Islam Rocks!]

HaHa laugh at the the horrid lies that you teach to children that drive them to do evil for your sick beliefs.I have absolutely No idea what evil or lies you are talking about.

As far as children go, I encourage mine to go to school and seek the highest education they can aspire to. Then get married, have children, and build a life.

[Islam Rocks!]

did you find anything discreditably non-rational in my presentation?
issues with or questions about it?

or worst, not worth reading?
oh well, i tried.I just have a totally different belief system and view of life disrupter.

[stefan segal]

islamrocks...are you saying you got nothing from Disruptors piece?

I noted you averred to a few tokes...you must have gotten something beyond your rote existence...maybe the feeling of personal responsibility in a sea of inchoate energies?

Porbably not...if you were equipped to think on your own you wouldn't be a wahabi intent upon twisting the young minds within your grasp.

Don't you question your responsibility in feeding such crap to your own children? I find christianity or even some parts of judism not benificial to a child's formative years, because they don't have the history to balance the really violent parts of those old time religions...of which yours is a particularly sick example.

Just a thought...and while meandering.,..it occurs to me that homosexuals don't strap on the explosive vests...because "who wants 72 virgins"...or did your all seeing allah provide 72 virgin boys ...like vanilla or chocolate?

Another thought before you strap your child into his vest...consider how expensive, loud and demanding 72 virgins can be...do you really want to saddle you son with such yoke ?

Stefan

[disrupter]

Islam Rocks!
genuine question,
are you in fact islamic/muslim in your beliefs?
i haven't picked that up distinctly per se your posts.
As an atheist/agnostic i am not very sensitive to [aware of] religious subtleties.

Am i correct, thinking your are relatively young & perhaps a bit more informal about whatever religious beliefs you have?
Your 'name' sort of makes me think that.

[Islam Rocks!]

Islam Rocks!
genuine question,
are you in fact islamic/muslim in your beliefs?
i haven't picked that up distinctly per se your posts.
As an atheist/agnostic i am not very sensitive to [aware of] religious subtleties.

Am i correct, thinking your are relatively young & perhaps a bit more informal about whatever religious beliefs you have?
Your 'name' sort of makes me think that.I am an American Muslim. Converted to Islam almost 7 years ago.

I was born a Catholic, married into the Baptist Church, and much later attended several non-denominational churches. But I found my home when I discovered Islam.

Islam meets all of my personal beliefs of spiritually, morals, social norms, politics, etc.

Actually, I am in my 50s. I guess I was feeling extra spunky the day I chose my username. Yes it does sound kind of juvinile.

[Moby]

May I remind all of you, that Romney was elected governor of one of the most liberal states in the union, and did a fine job.
Yes he did. Now he wants to take a different approach on many issues if his his first approach was fine then doing 180 would be not fine. Right or more like Bush right? :lmao2:

[Islam Rocks!]

islamrocks...are you saying you got nothing from Disruptors piece?

I noted you averred to a few tokes...you must have gotten something beyond your rote existence...maybe the feeling of personal responsibility in a sea of inchoate energies?

Porbably not...if you were equipped to think on your own you wouldn't be a wahabi intent upon twisting the young minds within your grasp.

Don't you question your responsibility in feeding such crap to your own children? I find christianity or even some parts of judism not benificial to a child's formative years, because they don't have the history to balance the really violent parts of those old time religions...of which yours is a particularly sick example.

Just a thought...and while meandering.,..it occurs to me that homosexuals don't strap on the explosive vests...because "who wants 72 virgins"...or did your all seeing allah provide 72 virgin boys ...like vanilla or chocolate?

Another thought before you strap your child into his vest...consider how expensive, loud and demanding 72 virgins can be...do you really want to saddle you son with such yoke ?

StefanI hope you realize that the 72 virgins is just a metaphor discribing how wonderful paradise will be for the believer. But if it does turn out to be literal, then so much the better!

Absolutely "No" homosexuals will be granted admission into heaven. They will all be burning in Hell for their sick lifestyle and disobediance to God.

Teaching Islamic theology to children is one of the highest callings for a Muslim man or woman. It will make a childs life easier when they know the truth and how to apply it in their daily lives.

[Smurf-Herder]

Yes, ignorance abounds.

Guess i will put you in that camp, Cat Slave.

Slave to ignorance.
I can only guess Freedom was just too much of a bother.


IMO, you are filled with such primal hatred, you're completely unable to judge any subject objectively. You're just plain blinded by hate.

[disrupter]

oh no, Smurf said i am full of hate.
Islam Rocks! says i, a homosexual will be emphatically excluded from 'his' heaven.

What can i say?

KISS MY ASS!

lol

yeah close, just a little to the left Smurfy,
oh that it, just right there.

[Little Red Dog]

All of the Founding Fathers were very religious men who felt guided by a higher power.

They were in "reality".

Your statement that a belief in a diety somehow makes you not 100% in reality is bogus.

The Founding Fathers were Diests. They believed in a Higher Power, but not in "religon". And they were vehement in their repudiation of the integration of Church and State. This is well documented in their writings.

The Founding Fathers on Religion (http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6177)

As the quotes on this page illustrate, the claim that America was founded on Christianity is a myth. Many of the Founding Fathers and Revolutionary War leaders were Deists, and upheld a firm separation of church and state.

Webster's New World Dictionary -- Third College Edition

Deism: (1) The belief in the existence of a God on purely rational grounds without reliance on revelation or authority; especially in the 17th and 18th centuries. (2) The doctrine that God created the world and its natural laws, but takes no further part in its functioning.

United States Constitution

The First Amendment
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

Article VI, Section 3
"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."


John Adams (the second President of the United States)

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.'"

From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

Additional quotes from John Adams:
"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

"The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."


Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States)

Jefferson's interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

From Jefferson's biography:
"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'"

Jefferson's "The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom":
"Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry....The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

From Thomas Jefferson's Bible:
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Jefferson's Notes on Virginia:
"Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these free inquiry must be indulged; how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse ourselves? But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. No two, say I, have established the same. Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments?"

Additional quotes from Thomas Jefferson:
"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."

"They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition of their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the alter of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

"In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear....Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you."

"Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

"...that our civil rights have no dependence on religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics and geometry."


James Madison (the fourth President of the United States)

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

Additional quote from James Madison:
"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."


Benjamin Franklin

From Franklin's autobiography, p. 66:
"My parents had given me betimes religious impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself."

From Franklin's autobiography, p. 66:
"...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."


Thomas Paine

From The Age of Reason, pp. 89:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all."

From The Age of Reason:
"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

From The Age of Reason:
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."

From The Age of Reason:
"What is it the Bible teaches us? -- rapine, cruelty, and murder."

From The Age of Reason:
"Loving of enemies is another dogma of feigned morality, and has beside no meaning....Those who preach the doctrine of loving their enemies are in general the greatest prosecutors, and they act consistently by so doing; for the doctrine is hypocritical, and it is natural that hypocrisy should act the reverse of what it preaches."

From The Age of Reason:
"The Bible was established altogether by the sword, and that in the worst use of it -- not to terrify but to extirpate."

Additional quote from Thomas Paine:
"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."


Ethan Allen
From Religion of the American Enlightenment:
"Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."

[Little Red Dog]

That is absurd. Most Americans believe that God is soverign over their nation.

By your statement, the vast majority of US citizens would fall into the traitor category.

I have to dispute this claim. I would say that most Americans believe that their religon should be sovreign in their personal lives - not in their government.

If a Christian President decided to convert to Judaism (of the type that believes that no one should be Muslim), would you be quite so supportive of having a President's religous convictions be sovreign over your nation?

The government of America should serve all Americans, regardless of what religous convictions they hold, or if they hold none at all. Our Constitution is what gave you the right to choose your religon. Why should the same privilege not be extended to all?

Just as long as their personal belief system doesn't get in the way of executing their job and duties as an elected official.

Agreed. And the Oath of Office which they take obligates them to uphold the Constitution - which is designed to protect ALL of America's citizens. Not just the ones they agree with.

[Cat slave]

Yes he did. Now he wants to take a different approach on many issues if his his first approach was fine then doing 180 would be not fine. Right or more like Bush right? :lmao2:

Is flexibility not a good thing??

(Not a Mitt supporter, just wanted to argue!):D

[disrupter]

Taking a stance that you don't initially believe in is good intellectual exercise.
In so doing you really can gain new & real insight into other perspectives.

You may not be won to an alternative point of view, but at least you may understand & offer ameliorations that might address their objections to your view or stance.

Your mind is deepened in the process.

[Islam Rocks!]

oh no, Smurf said i am full of hate.
Islam Rocks! says i, a homosexual will be emphatically excluded from 'his' heaven.

What can i say?

KISS MY ASS!

lol

yeah close, just a little to the left Smurfy,
oh that it, just right there.I for one don't Hate homosexuals. But I don't have any use for them either.

The Christian Bible also says that homosexuals will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

[mwillman]

Save me from religious idiots.

You might not hate them Islam but by saying you have no use for them you are expressing dislike.
The funny thing is you have probably had use for them many times you just didnt know they were gay.

By the way The bible doesnt say that get your quotes right.

[disrupter]

Thank God i'm an atheist, and notions of the oxymoronic 'after-life' don't concern me much.

I am condemned as useless by IslamRocks.

Interestingly he reinforces his position using the Christian Bible.
Are you 'cross referencing' your morality?
Is that the 'back up' justification? rationalization?

lol, sorry, but as a gay person i just have to call you on that.

Where is all that absolute certainty of 'faith'?
The condemnation of the infidels?

As a rational adult who has always survived beyond the social support of popular religion, what can i say.

Your dependencies are not mine.

Free will demands that we enlighten ourselves.
There may be intermittent shelters & supports, but ultimately we have to stand on our own two feet, stretch our spines & look to the far vistas.

If the internal diorama of your world description prevents you from being sufficiently constructive or excessively destructive in greater reality, survival may demand that be held to account.

The sometimes harsh & brutal circumstances of the Universe do not always allow for personal or collective indulgences when reality's load capacity is exceeded.

sometimes the deadwood must be sawed off.

[Islam Rocks!]

Save me from religious idiots.

You might not hate them Islam but by saying you have no use for them you are expressing dislike.
The funny thing is you have probably had use for them many times you just didnt know they were gay.

By the way The bible doesnt say that get your quotes right.

Book of Revelations

22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city (heaven).
22:15 For outside are dogs (homosexuals), and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

[Islam Rocks!]

There are many more in the Bible besides these verses



Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:31-32 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Cor 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

1 Tim 1:8-10 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

2 Tim 3:2-4 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

[Little Red Dog]

I for one don't Hate homosexuals. But I don't have any use for them either.

The Christian Bible also says that homosexuals will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

IR - Approximately 3 - 6% of Americans self-identify as "gay". Do you seriously believe you do not encounter/work with gays in your daily life?

[disrupter]

You keep your bibles, k?

I will stick with physics & science texts, k?

[sung to the tune of 'Bonnie Banks O'loch Lomond']
You take the voodoo & ill take the science, & i'll have a nuker afore ye.
For me & my physics will always kick yer arse,
On the bonnie bonnie banks of more Intellect.

[mwillman]

I always find it hilarious that people quote the Old testiment and act like thats christianity. They then talk all kinds of shit about jews.

The old Testiment is the Torah and should not be used to define Christianity. Its the new Testiment that expresses the words of Christ not the old.

Its like so many Muslims they dont follow the Koran they follow all the subjective analysis of the Koran.

[Little Red Dog]

Islam Rocks also appears to be ignoring the fact that the Crusaders waged genocide against Muslims while waving their current version of the Bible.

Ironic that he should use the very book that calls for the extermination of his religon and its followers, to prove his point.

[Islam Rocks!]

I always find it hilarious that people quote the Old testiment and act like thats christianity. They then talk all kinds of shit about jews.

The old Testiment is the Torah and should not be used to define Christianity. Its the new Testiment that expresses the words of Christ not the old.

Its like so many Muslims they dont follow the Koran they follow all the subjective analysis of the Koran.

All of these verses are from the New Testament


.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:31-32 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Cor 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

1 Tim 1:8-10 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

2 Tim 3:2-4 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

[Islam Rocks!]

Islam Rocks also appears to be ignoring the fact that the Crusaders waged genocide against Muslims while waving their current version of the Bible.

Ironic that he should use the very book that calls for the extermination of his religon and its followers, to prove his point.
In Islam we believe 100% in the Torah (Old Testament) and in the Gospel (New Testament).

Both books are considered Holy and contain revelations from God to his origional chosen people the Jews.

Obviously you were not aware of this fact.

[mwillman]

Really so you treat your nieghbors like you wish to be treated.

You must like being treated like shit.

P.S. how much for your daughter I want to make her my bitch and since your such a believer in the Old testiment
that shouldnt be an issue.

By the way do you carry your pooper scooper around with you becuase if not then you need to go live as a hermit away from civilized people.

[Islam Rocks!]

IR - Approximately 3 - 6% of Americans self-identify as "gay". Do you seriously believe you do not encounter/work with gays in your daily life?There is a certain % of pedaphiles in America. Do you believe that you do not encounter/work with some of them in your daily life?

So what's your point?

[Little Red Dog]

That you don't know who you're dealing with in your day to day life. You encounter and "use" all kinds of people.

If you want to encounter tolerance, you should be willing to extend it.

[Little Red Dog]

In Islam we believe 100% in the Torah (Old Testament) and in the Gospel (New Testament).

Both books are considered Holy and contain revelations from God to his origional chosen people the Jews.

Obviously you were not aware of this fact.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there a whole lot of Muslims trying to kill God's original chosen people?

Wouldn't murdering God's chosen people kinda tick Him off?

[Islam Rocks!]

That you don't know who you're dealing with in your day to day life. You encounter and "use" all kinds of people.

If you want to encounter tolerance, you should be willing to extend it.
Good point LRD.

I am sure that I have encountered gays who were sales people and such.

I personally handle it this way. If the sales person is flamboyantly gay acting. I will just tell them that I am just looking and wait untill a normal straight sales person comes along.

I don't point out the gay or make an issue of it. They just don't get my business.

[mwillman]

So you admit that your a bigot?

Not giving someone your business is just a passive agressive form of bigotry.
Has that person harmed you or insulted you or in any way done anything towards you that could be construed as rude? I think not, there fore you are basing you judgement on nothing other then your own prejudice.

By that reasoning Americans should be able to blackball anyone. Hell, that mean forced segragation should be OK and that not letting muslims eat in resturants should be fine as well. Your behavior is nothing more then the continuation of hate and ignorance.

[Islam Rocks!]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there a whole lot of Muslims trying to kill God's original chosen people?

Wouldn't murdering God's chosen people kinda tick Him off?As I have stated before we are not againt the Jews. We are against the Zionist fascists who are brutalizing and killing Muslims on a daily basis in Israel.

Most Zionists are secular and not religious.

If you read your history you will see that the Muslims and Jews usually lived around each other with very little conflict untill modern times.

[Islam Rocks!]

So you admit that your a bigot?

Not giving someone your business is just a passive agressive form of bigotry.
Has that person harmed you or insulted you or in any way done anything towards you that could be construed as rude? I think not, there fore you are basing you judgement on nothing other then your own prejudice.

By that reasoning Americans should be able to blackball anyone. Hell, that mean forced segragation should be OK and that not letting muslims eat in resturants should be fine as well. Your behavior is nothing more then the continuation of hate and ignorance.
You really go off on a tangent don't you.

As a consumer it is up to me what I buy and who I buy it from.

The rest of your post is way out there nonsense.

Blackballing, hate, forced segragation...............You got all of that because I prefer one sales person over another!!!!!

Get a grip numb nuts!!!!!!!

[mwillman]

No, I got that from your statement that you wont give them your business.

I know what you are Islam, and it doesnt matter what religion you choose you will still be the same kind of barbaric misogynistic self rightious patriarchal dinosaur that has ruined the lives of others through out history.

[stefan segal]

In Islam we believe 100% in the Torah (Old Testament) and in the Gospel (New Testament).

Both books are considered Holy and contain revelations from God to his origional chosen people the Jews.

Obviously you were not aware of this fact.

islamrock...The 'torah' is not the old testiment. My brother attempted to explain it to you...apparently you didn't get it. I will differentiate them for you.

The 'torah' is like the minutes recording debates about old testement events that lend themselves to alternate interpretations. These debates took place in study centers where Jews studied their religion. The torah is a compendium of such arguments spaning hundreds of years and is utilized as a learning tool.

The old testement, as you know is a history of the Jews from the beginning of time.

Aside from that...both the old and new testements are truely handbooks for barbarians....which is alright for the time they covered...but with today's close interaction and plethera of bodies everywhere you step, it should be banned as harmful and vicious behavior.

Any attempt toward fundamentalist behavior guided by either old, new or especially the koran as guides to thought or behavior, need mental help...maybe an extended vacation in palestine just to have their flaws mirrored...big time.

ir...why don't you teach kids sociology instead religion...then maybe you could learn somthing too.

Stefan

[jordan]

Hes a dough boy on illegal immigrants and
securing our borders. No way in hell would I vote for him. None, which of
course would be a vote for the other side, but I just couldnt hold my nose
tight enough for that character.

[Islam Rocks!]

The 'torah' is like the minutes recording debates about old testement events that lend themselves to alternate interpretations. These debates took place in study centers where Jews studied their religion. The torah is a compendium of such arguments spaning hundreds of years and is utilized as a learning tool.


StefanWhat you are describing squid brain is the Talmud.

I was referring to the Torah (first 5 books of the Old Testament)

Every Jew should know this! It's Jew 101

To have me a gentile explain this to you is beyond comprehension.

No wonder G-D has abandonded the Jewish people.

They have rejected his laws and where they come from.

Sad............................................

[stefan segal]

What you are describing squid brain is the Talmud.

I was referring to the Torah (first 5 books of the Old Testament)

Every Jew should know this! It's Jew 101

To have me a gentile explain this to you is beyond comprehension.

No wonder G-D has abandonded the Jewish people.

They have rejected his laws and where they come from.

Sad............................................

isrock...You are right...I'm hell on names...it's not so much an age thing (although age is magnafying it), it's a llifetime thing having to do with being ambidextrous .

Sorry for my impertenance :)


Stefan

[mwillman]

You dont need to appologies to Islam he is not the kind of person you want to take religious advice from.

He thinks love thy neighbor means kill the infidel.

[disrupter]

Don't you just love it?

'How many angels will fit on the head of a pin?'

This is better than lilliputians, they were at least staunchly petty & trival,
this is actually imaginary.
The war of the phantoms.
My phantom is better than your phantom.
My mythology is better than your mythology.

While arguably string theory is not yet substantially better, they are getting closer to potentially testable ideas & evidence about that.

And interestingly it has the elegance of fine math about it,
Rather than the luxuriant hog wallow of religious beliefs.

My pig wallow is better than your pig wallow.
I would be troubled by the fact that it is a caged pig wallow, but that is just silly me.

My god is better than your god because he eats "Kennel ration."

Your debate is delightful,
lol,
the atheist thanks you for a bit of entertainment.

now back to the serious topics for the adults in the room.

[stefan segal]

To return to adult discussion, the crux of this string is the couplet gov. needs religion/ religion needs gov.

I will ask what religion uniquely provides that gives this statement any credence?

I believe that it can't be god's blood on the cross...or virginal birth or even miracles like turning people to salt for attempting to see...the only real thing left to offer then is morality.

If this "morality" is the great gift that no government can function without, then the religions must have a lock on all morality...an easily disproved assumption.

I wouldn't wonder that religiosos might claim to be the progenator of such morality, but again their over reaching is historically illuminated.

If anything, technology which enables the spread of wealth, is the progenator of morality.

Lets face it..morality is not a neccessary means required for an assembly of people...it is a luxury assumed by those who all agree to allow their fellows boundaries of their personal existence. One's neighbor must not be hungry if the safety of their pig is assured. (this is a fact that a lot of our congrssmen and senators have not yet discovered...and each one of them will loudly claim their religion...what happened?)

To face the obvious nut of this question, it is not the logic...which doesn't exist and is against our Constitutional law), but the unified lieing mouth of a sizeable voting block. If it weren't for these numbers, we all (mostly) would have had our laugh and gone onto things of more importance...which is mostly everything else.

Stefan

[Islam Rocks!]

isrock...You are right...I'm hell on names...it's not so much an age thing (although age is magnafying it), it's a llifetime thing having to do with being ambidextrous .

Sorry for my impertenance :)


StefanNo problem. I figured that you had made an honest mistake.

I am not ambidextrous. Wish I was.

With me, it's just age. :)