PDA

View Full Version : War At Any Price


LadyMod at scam.com
12-02-2007, 08:21 AM
And what did we get for our $50,000 per US family? Here, pick one. Did we get:


A better world? Fewer terrorists? Happier Iraqis? Happier Americans? A strong US military? A stronger US economy? A world that respects the US more?
A freer America? A strengthened US Constitution? Better care for our Vets? A more peaceful Middle East? Lower oil prices? A more secure energy future?

IF this is how the Neocons exist, on borrowed money and up to their eyeballs in debt, it's no wonder this war is popular to them.


War At Any Price? (http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2007/Iraq-War-Costs-JEC13nov07.htm)

The Total Economic Costs of the War Beyond the Federal Budget
A Report by the Joint Economic Committee
Majority Staff Chairman, Senator Charles E. Schumer,
Vice Chair, Rep. Carolyn B. Maloney
Nov. 17, 2007


Executive Summary

The long wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have cost the United States in many ways. For the American Armed Forces, the human toll has been profound: as of November 9, 2007, 4,578 American soldiers have lost their lives, and 30,205 have been wounded, many of them gravely. The damage to our international reputation at a time when the United States faces grave security challenges all over the world has also been severe. And the full economic costs of the war to the American taxpayers and the overall U.S. economy go well beyond even the immense federal budget costs already reported. These “hidden costs” of the Iraq war include the ongoing drain on U.S. economic growth created by Iraq-related borrowing, the disruptive effects of the conflict on world oil markets, the future care of our injured veterans, repair costs for the military, and other undisclosed costs.

In this report, the Joint Economic Committee estimates the total costs of the long war in Iraq to the American economy as a whole:

• The total economic costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan so far have been approximately double the total amounts directly requested by the Administration to fight these wars.

• The future economic costs of a prolonged military presence in Iraq would be massive. Even assuming a considerable drawdown in troop levels, total economic costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (with the vast majority of costs a result of in the war Iraq) would amount to $3.5 trillion between 2003 and 2017. This is over $1 trillion higher than the recent Congressional Budget Office (CBO) Federal cost forecast for the same scenario, which counted only direct spending and interest paid on war-related debt resulting from that spending.

• The total economic cost of the war in Iraq to a family of four is a shocking $16,500 from 2002 to 2008. When the war in Afghanistan is included, the burden to the American family rises to $20,900. The future impact on a family of four skyrockets to $36,900 for Iraq and $46,400 for Iraq and Afghanistan when all potential costs from 2002 to 2017 are included. The American people and Democrats in Congress have urged a dramatic change of course in Iraq. This war has cost Americans far too much, in terms of lives, dollars, and our reputation around the world. This report also demonstrates that a change in course would bring substantial economic savings to our country.

Through 2008, the True Cost of the War has been Double the Administration’s Budgeted Cost

To date, the President has requested a total of $607 billion for the Iraq war alone since 2003. This is over ten times higher than the $50 to $60 billion cost estimated by the Administration prior to the start of the war. Costs have increased every year since the start of the war in 2003. The Administration has requested $804 billion for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars combined (CRS 2007, Bumiller 2003).1

To provide some perspective on these figures, just the funds requested for the Iraq war through 2008 would have been sufficient to provide health insurance coverage to all of America’s uninsured for the 2003-2008 period. (There were approximately 45 million uninsured Americans at the start of the war in 2003 and this number rose to 47 million by 2006, which is the latest figure available from the U.S. Census Bureau).

But even beyond these direct fiscal impacts, there are a large number of costs that do not appear directly in Administration funding requests for the Iraq war. The most important of these include the following:

• Borrowed money to finance the Iraq War has displaced productive investment. Since taxes have been cut and other spending has increased since the beginning of the Iraq war, it seems clear that the war has been and continues to be funded using borrowed money. The increase in government borrowing displaces substantial amounts of productive investment by U.S. businesses, thus reducing productivity in the economy over many future years. Interest costs paid by taxpayers are only a subset of these costs.

• Substantial Iraq-related costs have been borrowed from foreigners. The interest payments on this debt constitute a flow of funds from Americans to those foreigners who have bought our debt.

• The war in Iraq has disrupted world oil markets leading to increased prices. The Iraq war has occurred in a context of greatly increasing world demand for oil, as well as declining excess production capacity. Both the direct effect of the war in reducing Iraqi oil production and the indirect effect of creating greater instability in the Middle East can act to increase oil prices. Relatively small increases in oil prices can have substantial economic effects.

• Other economic and budgetary costs have grown due to the Iraq war. These expenditures include the costs of treating the wounded and disabled, lost productivity from those injured, potential future expansions in the size of the military made necessary by the war, the costs of repair and refit for military equipment, increases in recruitment and retention costs for the military, and economic disruptions created by the deployment of the Reserves.

The sum of the costs listed above raises the economic costs of the war from $607 billion in direct funding for the Iraq war to $1.3 trillion. If spending in Afghanistan is included, costs could reach $1.6 trillion by the close of FY 2008.

There are numerous other impacts of these wars that are not listed above and are difficult if not impossible to measure. These include the horrible human cost of the nearly 4,000 U.S. fatalities since the start of military operations in Iraq, the impact on our reputation and credibility throughout the world, and the budgetary and economic costs to other nations besides the U.S. (most notably Iraq). Finally, the debate over the broader national security impacts of the Iraq war, and related costs or benefits, is a complex issue that goes beyond the scope of this report (DoD 2007).

If We Don’t Change Course, the Cost of the War will Balloon to $3.5 Trillion

The costs described above represent only the impacts of the Iraq war through the close of FY 2008 (if the President’s current budget requests are approved in full). Yet at least some spending on the war will continue beyond FY 2008. Assumptions about the future course of the war are necessary to forecast the full eventual fiscal and economic impacts. Because the Administration has not been clear about future plans for U.S. forces in Iraq, these assumptions must be hypothetical.

This study mainly examines potential future costs over a ten year window, up to the year 2017, similar to the budget spending window that the CBO used. The paper focuses on a scenario corresponding to the recent statement by Secretary of Defense Robert Gates that a protracted “Korealike” presence would be required in Iraq. This scenario involves a drawdown in Iraq troop levels of 66 percent by the year 2013, and a smaller drawdown of 33 percent in Afghanistan forces. The scenario also assumes that some active conflict with insurgents continues over the period (CBO 2007a).

In recent testimony, the nonpartisan CBO detailed Federal direct appropriations and interest costs for this scenario (CBO 2007b). These CBO estimates are used as a base for the analysis in this report. Once the full economic costs of the war are added to the approximately $2.4 trillion in Federal spending forecast under the CBO scenario, the total economic cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan rise by over $1 trillion to $3.5 trillion.

Costs could far exceed these projections if the significant drawdown assumed in this scenario does not materialize. This CBO budgetary scenario projects that appropriations for the Iraq war will begin to drop significantly in 2009. But historically appropriations for the Iraq war have increased every year since the invasion, by between 12 and 40 percent annually (CRS 2007).


This report also presents costs for several alternative budgetary scenarios (Appendix A). These include costs for a rapid withdrawal from Iraq while maintaining troops in Afghanistan, and the costs to maintain current (post-surge) troop levels in Iraq for the next decade. These scenarios generate very different economic costs over the next decade. For example, maintaining post-surge troop levels in Iraq over the next ten years would result in costs of $4.5 trillion.

Each state is assumed to bear a share of the total war costs proportional to its share of the total national economy. On this basis, the report presents total state costs accrued through FY 2008, as well as potential future costs through 2017.

Part I: Taxpayer Costs of the War

This section estimates current and future taxpayer expenditures for the war, based on budgetary information from the Congressional Research Service (CRS) and Congressional Budget Office (CBO).

2 The taxpayer costs can be divided into direct appropriations for the war and interest costs for Iraq-related debt. (These interest costs are a subset of the wider economic costs calculated in this report).

DIRECT APPROPRIATIONS FOR THE WAR

Prior to the start of the Iraq war in 2003, the Bush administration estimated the total cost of the war at between $50 to $60 billion (Bumiller 2003).

The President has now requested over ten times this initial estimate just in direct appropriations for the war between FY 2003 and 2008. If the President’s latest request for supplemental funding is approved, the direct expenditures authorized specifically for the Iraq war from FY 2003 to FY 2008 will total some $607 billion (CRS 2007; JEC estimates). This includes $450 billion already authorized by Congress between FY 2003 and FY 2007, plus an estimated $158 billion for Iraq from the supplemental request that the administration has made for FY 2008.3

Estimates of budgetary costs after 2008 depend on assumptions about the future course of the war. Appendix A of this report outlines costs for a variety of alternative scenarios, ranging from a rapid drawdown of troops to a continuation of post-surge funding and troop levels through the foreseeable future.

In the main body of this report, we focus on the CBO “considerable drawdown” scenario, which corresponds to the “Korea-like presence” recently predicted by Secretary of Defense Robert Gates. Following the war in Korea, force levels dropped to a level of between 50,000 and 60,000 troops throughout the 1960s and 1970s (Kane 2004). This scenario assumes that force levels in Iraq drop from their current level of 180,000 troops down to 55,000 by 2013, and are maintained at this level through 2017.

This level of drawdown implies that beginning in FY 2009 funding levels for Iraq will begin to drop for the first time in the history of the war. The scenario predicts direct appropriations for the war drop from $135 billion in FY 2007 to less than $60 billion in FY 2013. For these reasons, the scenario should be seen as a conservative one. This CBO scenario implies an additional $690 billion in Iraq war spending through 2017 (CBO 2007a).



MORE (http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2007/Iraq-War-Costs-JEC13nov07.htm)

.

Jesse Hemingway
12-02-2007, 08:33 AM
LadyMod at scam.com they lost this escapade the minute the Karlyle group took down the WTC and sponsored 9/11. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

disrupter
12-02-2007, 09:41 AM
We got MORE terrorists,
We got higher oil prices,
we lost US respect for both our competence AND our ideals,
Torture there & elsewhere has undermined what it means to even be an American,
We fed hundreds of billions to looting, criminal contractors & corporations,
The pentagon INTENTIONALLY lost [stole?] 9 billion in cold, hard, Federal Reserve currency by the pallet load.
We have 70,000 wounded vets,
Who the Neocrooks refuse to take care of,
3800+ dead soldiers
& caused the deaths of a Million additional Iraqis
& created chaos & havoc, with no resolve anywhere in the foreseeable future.
For the war profiting corporations, maybe this was a calculated [pre-planned] thing.

America has lost the war,
Because America has lost it way.

Now the only question is
Has America lost its mind altogether?

It makes me not want to be an American,
especially the irresponsible way an out-of-control government has been allowed to do these things.
It is sickening & revolting. Disgusting.

Moby
12-02-2007, 11:40 AM
It's really sad that most supporters have never stopped to do the math. I've given the numbers to some pretty smart supporters and they were shocked at the real numbers. They were busy being fed what Fox presents them and didn't know the half of it.

Krome
12-02-2007, 12:18 PM
I've decided to remove some of these pics - Bill
http://www.butterbach.net/child2003baghdad.jpg

Krome
12-02-2007, 12:19 PM
http://i20.tinypic.com/2dce9s8.jpg
http://i23.tinypic.com/2uf6bea.jpg
http://i21.tinypic.com/168brlc.jpg
http://i23.tinypic.com/66ae5k.jpg

Krome
12-02-2007, 12:20 PM
The next time an event like 9-11 happens which cant be that soon now just remember, America asked for it.

Krome
12-02-2007, 12:22 PM
http://i24.tinypic.com/neahl1.jpg
Before
http://i22.tinypic.com/2j5c7cp.jpg
After
http://i20.tinypic.com/28ixkk3.jpg
pic removed - the point was made

Krome
12-02-2007, 12:33 PM
IED
pic removed, point made

Hey look what the President gave him. He got a T-Shirt "You went to war, I wasnt that fucking stupid to go"
http://i8.tinypic.com/6sgqg6o.jpg
http://www.michaelmoore.com/_media/images/special/the_war_president_hires.jpg

Krome
12-02-2007, 12:37 PM
http://www.pariswerlin.com/images/photos/nigel/holocaust.jpg

60 years later, a 9 year old victim of the Israeli airforce.

http://i2.tinypic.com/821cuu0.jpg

insurgency victim in iraq and inquisitive bystander- its the fact that the kids are less horrified thn interested that gets me - clearly the sight of dead bodies is nothing new to them


http://michaelgreenwell.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/iraq-children.jpg

Krome
12-02-2007, 12:40 PM
http://ancapistan.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/eugenearmstrong.jpg

A 12 year old beheads someone in Iraq. It must be easy for him to do it without having any feelings after his parents and family were murdered by American bombs. Americans dont call in murder, it is colateral damage. Basically America is helping to create the next generation of terrorist by making them itself.

Krome
12-02-2007, 12:47 PM
Dont worry the terrorists are being killed.

http://i8.tinypic.com/828ix5z.jpg

The terrorists fight back

http://i5.tinypic.com/6tcvygp.jpg

Krome
12-02-2007, 12:48 PM
One dead American

http://i10.tinypic.com/855e9z9.jpg

Two, three and four dead Americans

http://i14.tinypic.com/71xlbsy.jpg

Dont worry you got the nasty terrorist with their WMDs

Krome
12-02-2007, 12:51 PM
http://i3.tinypic.com/7ynmyhf.jpg

Krome
12-02-2007, 12:52 PM
http://i5.tinypic.com/726xu84.jpg
http://i17.tinypic.com/6lwqs0n.jpg
http://i5.tinypic.com/71rmfyh.jpg
http://i19.tinypic.com/6ww49j5.jpg

Moby
12-02-2007, 02:14 PM
Krome, if you have something to say then I'll ask that you say it.

This isn't a picture exchange. If more then one picture isn't enough to get your point across then are 1,000 really needed?

This could have been a good thread with good discussion.

Krome
12-02-2007, 02:25 PM
Krome, if you have something to say then I'll ask that you say it.

This isn't a picture exchange. If more then one picture isn't enough to get your point across then are 1,000 really needed?

This could have been a good thread with good discussion.

A picture says a thousand words and I wanted to say thousands of words.

I think ever picture in this thread is relevant. Personally I dont think I posted enough.
All I am trying to do is show exactly what has happened due to the war.

Jesse Hemingway
12-02-2007, 08:14 PM
A picture says a thousand words and I wanted to say thousands of words.

I think ever picture in this thread is relevant. Personally I dont think I posted enough.
All I am trying to do is show exactly what has happened due to the war.

Well we could not get into Iraq fast enough just remeber, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) is the gift that keeps giving.

LadyMod at scam.com
12-02-2007, 08:25 PM
A picture says a thousand words and I wanted to say thousands of words.

I think ever picture in this thread is relevant. Personally I dont think I posted enough.
All I am trying to do is show exactly what has happened due to the war.

While I agree with you most of the way, it would have been better to spread them out over the length of a longer thread. And not one shocker after another. Which the masses only become numb to, so it loses it's value.

All you managed to do was kill any discussion.


Lady Mod

Jesse Hemingway
12-02-2007, 09:14 PM
The reality of war is vastly different then pretending my father was in World War II and did not talk much about. He did say everyone should be shot in the buttocks just to get the feeling. This country under this administration has made great mistakes by trivializing war the way it has and it made the world a very dangerous place from now on out. There where smarter ways to handle it, and I am from the school that 9/11 was an inside job so each event builds on the next from day one it was a plan. The plan was for surely a strategic and economics reasons if my logic is correct then Iran will have to get invaded before this administration leaves office. Unless by April of 2008 Hillary has it locked then they may hold off. The Clintons are cut from the same cloth as the bushs or the same puppets. Now if someone else from the democratic side has it locked up by April then it will be Katie bar the doors they will have to destroy this country because they will have to hide their tracks by leaving it totally wrecked. So that’s were I am coming from some freak in a cave could have not made this happen and still be alive today no way.

radioguy
12-02-2007, 11:05 PM
I want to say this at the outset. I am not trying to derail this thread, change the subject, or posting as a means to insult or anger. The reason I'm writing this post is because of a discussion I had with Lady mod this morning, that touched on the issue of the slant that exists (or doesn't exist) from the various sources we choose to copy and paste to this board from.


*****

Lady mod gets this article from a website called "Mindfully.org". I decided to see what they were all about and was quite impressed with how they described themselves and their political outlook on things in the first few paragraphs of their "About" page:


The goal of mindfully.org is to provide useful information to people who would not obtain this information otherwise. Mindfully.org is to be used as a nonprofit research tool. Our opinion is indeed biased — because it seems to us that the "balanced news" of today's journalism is accomplished by blending fact with fiction. Each article on this website is far from the final word on any subject and one can only get an overall view by viewing a lot of it. In other words, don't base your opinions on one file or even a few files from Mindfully.org. As for our political affiliation, we have none — not conservative or liberal. We see liberals and progressives as kind-hearted conservatives who can only add to the downward spiral of society in the US. We live in a world of contradictions where conservatives are willing to bring on Armageddon, while liberals resist change at all costs. In other words, conservatives are liberal and liberals are conservative.


I thought to myself, "Not too bad", but then I made the mistake of reading more. Here are some of the highlights from this site that claims to have no political preference or agenda:



Democrat and Republican approval ratings are bottoming out and are about equal to that of our buffoon-called-president.


They are anti-Bush... Check



And contrary to published reports on the economy, there is a steady decline in quality in all areas of life in the U.S.A., especially truth and justice from our elected representatives...

...The disparity of income is also at a high point. Health benefits and pensions are rapidly disappearing. And wages have stagnated and not kept pace with inflation.


Liberal "Gloom and doom" outlook on the economy... Check



The war on terrorism, as it is being fought, will not be won — by anyone. The money being spent on it is only increasing the wealth of those who invest in it...

...The need for this (military) technology is motivated more by politics and greed than anything else. And the outcome of its use will be that little is accomplished towards "winning" it. This war will be lost many times over to the negative effects on all people involved...

...will make a few people very wealthy, but it will not win the war on terrorism. For every $1 a "terrorist" spends, the USA must spend $1 million, making it a very profitable war for its suppliers.


Embraces the democrats "We can't win/We have already lost" view of Iraq... Check
Subscribes to the liberals "the war is only to benefit war profiteers" angle... Check



However, at this rate, the (military) suppliers will need to find a new country because the USA will be taken down in much the same manner as the USSR.


Spouts the far Lefts vision of the demise of the United States... Check



As a journalistic issue, the destruction of the World Trade Center and Pentagon on 9/11 has gone the way of the Kennedy assassinations. One who discusses either is considered a conspiracy theorist or paranoid, as if that is bad. Make no mistake about 911 being an inside job.

Subscribes to the liberal kook theory that "9/11 was an inside job"... Check



Technology's effects on the environment, which can be seen as one step forward and many steps backwards...

...Too many people consuming far too much energy and resources have overburdened the earth for thousands of years. It is all well beyond anything it can withstand. We don't need technology to save energy. We just need to stop doing whatever uses energy, including the computer. It is an arrogant delusion to think that it is a right to live such lives.

Takes an extreme far left stance on the environment... Check

*******

I would have to say that after reviewing their stand on the environment, the economy, their beliefs about why we're in Iraq, their view on the progress in Iraq, their predictions on the outcome in Iraq, their summary of the events of 9/11, their feelings toward the president, and their outlook on America's future, that this website just might lean ever so slightly to the left (Like a full 90 degrees) and their claim of not being conservative or liberal, might not be completely true (more like half true... The "not being conservative" part I don't doubt one bit) .

So much for the source of this article...

disrupter
12-02-2007, 11:45 PM
If America had seen 5% of the violence directly inflicted on Iraqis by US troops & security firms like Blackwater & the flag draped corpses of US service persons on their TV screens they would have been in outrage, demanding that we either get something useful accomplished or more likely get the hell out of this mess we unleashed.

But this is all about stealth, deceptions, misdirections & lies.

it is a purely criminal inspired enterprise & the pentagon was right at the forefront.

The pentagon intentionally hired a criminal firm without a single accountant to be in charge of the theft & loss of 9 Billion in cold hard cash from the Federal reserve.

Sorry radioguy, but you are siding with a bunch of outlaw, war criminal, deceivers & thieves.

Oh & include perverts, gleefully torturing & sodomizing detainees at Abu Ghraib.

You are either criminally negligently implicitly conspiring with these monstrous crooks & murderers or you are one of their paid distorters of the cold hard, extremely ugly facts.

Either through intent or negligence you are betraying this nation.

LadyMod at scam.com
12-03-2007, 12:58 AM
I want to say this at the outset. I am not trying to derail this thread, change the subject, or posting as a means to insult or anger. The reason I'm writing this post is because of a discussion I had with Lady mod this morning, that touched on the issue of the slant that exists (or doesn't exist) from the various sources we choose to copy and paste to this board from.


*****

Lady mod gets this article from a website called "Mindfully.org". I decided to see what they were all about and was quite impressed with how they described themselves and their political outlook on things in the first few paragraphs of their "About" page:


LOL, who gives a rip what mindfully org are "all about" when the report is just that?

A report.



The Total Economic Costs of the War Beyond the Federal Budget
A Report by the Joint Economic Committee
Majority Staff Chairman, Senator Charles E. Schumer,
Vice Chair, Rep. Carolyn B. Maloney
Nov. 17, 2007

.


Here it is again Cupcake:

http://jec.senate.gov/Documents/Reports/11.13.07IraqEconomicCostsReport.pdf


http://maloney.house.gov/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1497&Itemid=61


I got it in my email. Since we have to link things here I did a search and grabbed the first site it was posted on. And a simple search would have REVEALED to you the same thing if you had bothered to rub two brain cells together to make a spark. You are about as dumb as dirt sometimes RG. And about as clever.


But you aren't trying to derail the topic. Sure you aren't. :lmao2:



Lady Mod

LadyMod at scam.com
12-03-2007, 12:32 PM
Sir Moby offered to let us start this thread over again and close this one so we can have a discussion, not a pictorial, when I asked, but maybe we can just continue from here and hope Krome will not flood it with his pictures anymore? :)


Lady Mod

LadyMod at scam.com
12-03-2007, 03:52 PM
Cat got your tongue RG?

Here it is again Cupcake:

http://jec.senate.gov/Documents/Repo...ostsReport.pdf


http://maloney.house.gov/index.php?o...97&Itemid= 61


Aren't you always saying you are the first to apologize when you're wrong?


Lady Mod

UserName
12-03-2007, 05:50 PM
For what we are about to receive, may god make us truly thankful.
In Jesus name.

Amen

LadyMod at scam.com
12-03-2007, 08:57 PM
For what we are about to receive, may god make us truly thankful.
In Jesus name.

Amen

ROFL....

:lmao2:

LadyMod at scam.com
12-03-2007, 11:16 PM
Well, I'm going to pull an RG here and call you a Liar, Radio Guy. You've ignored this all day. Typical of you though.



You are nothing but a hypocrite. Next time, spare us all the sanctimonious speeches.



:taunt:

moonman
12-04-2007, 04:03 AM
With reference to the poll it is another way of asking Kerry's '04 question, "Are you safer now because of Operation Iraqi Freedom?" Thus far the poll result is unaminous. Not surprising really.

I really thought krome's pictorial essay made the point all too real. It gave me a queezy stomach rather numb me. In fact looking at the pictures it brings me back to my protest days in the 60's. I look at those pic's and ask, how can it be worth this price? Especially the children.

When is that kind of destruction and abuse worth it? It hasn't helped us catch Osama.

LadyMod at scam.com
12-04-2007, 07:31 AM
With reference to the poll it is another way of asking Kerry's '04 question, "Are you safer now because of Operation Iraqi Freedom?" Thus far the poll result is unaminous. Not surprising really.

Since only one Neocon responded to the thread, I'm curious how he can still be a Bush admirer and yet vote the war didn't gain us a damned thing? It sure cost us and the Iraqi's a lot and both countries will be paying for it for a long, long time.

I really thought krome's pictorial essay made the point all too real. It gave me a queezy stomach rather numb me. In fact looking at the pictures it brings me back to my protest days in the 60's. I look at those pic's and ask, how can it be worth this price? Especially the children.

When is that kind of destruction and abuse worth it? It hasn't helped us catch Osama.

Personally, I think it should be set to music, something patriotic or religious, since the war had it's roots in both false idealogies. I see the pictures and my heart breaks and I wonder if there is a loving God/Allah why the hell can't he make his children get along?

As parents we would never allow our kids to fight like this. But some grown men apparently have no problem with it. Either the leaders in our world are rich spoiled brats who were never told "No" or they were all raised in hell and are acting out.


Lady Mod

Gazza
12-04-2007, 08:58 AM
I see the pictures and my heart breaks and I wonder if there is a loving God/Allah why the hell can't he make his children get along?
It is the ideal of God/Allah that makes people perform such atrocities.

A loving God/Allah is an oxymoron.


(btw, the poll is a loaded question)

LadyMod at scam.com
12-04-2007, 10:44 AM
(btw, the poll is a loaded question)


How so? We either gained something from going to war or we didn't. And there are 8 choices to choose from to make a claim of gain and only one to choose if we didn't.


Lady Mod

Bill
12-11-2007, 03:44 PM
I've decided to remove some of the pictures in this thread.

Not because they were not relevant, they were. But, the point was made, war is about the most horrific kind of killing.

War means death.

anybody got any complaints?

Krome
12-11-2007, 03:49 PM
I've decided to remove some of the pictures in this thread.

Not because they were not relevant, they were. But, the point was made, war is about the most horrific kind of killing.

War means death.

anybody got any complaints?

Sorry I did go a bit over the top.

I jsut sometimes think that when people use numbers about war they seems to forget the actuall reality.

LadyMod at scam.com
12-11-2007, 04:29 PM
Sorry I did go a bit over the top.

I jsut sometimes think that when people use numbers about war they seems to forget the actuall reality.


They do. But there is "reminders" and then there is "totally overwhelming them".

In this day and age, it seems more effective to remind rather than overwhelm.

Namaskar,

Lady Mod

LadyMod at scam.com
12-11-2007, 04:32 PM
And on the flip side, it must be true. The war gained us nothing. Not freedom, not safety, not lower oil costs, more respect or profit.

If it had, then RG, HDM or frankie would have been quick to tell us all so.


LOL

disrupter
12-11-2007, 04:42 PM
How can the true blood & gore not be 'relevant'.

That troubles me so much.

We aren't taxed, we aren't drafted & we don't even see the real gore of what this nation is doing. Not even flag draped coffins.

You have to be crazy to allow yourselves to be this 'detached'.

This is something that at the very least will haunt this nation or come around to bite us on the ass with real terrorist attack & global hate & resentment.

Unadult.

INEXCUSABLE!

LadyMod at scam.com
12-11-2007, 04:45 PM
How can the true blood & gore not be 'relevant'.

That troubles me so much.

We aren't taxed, we aren't drafted & we don't even see the real gore of what this nation is doing. Not even flag draped coffins.

You have to be crazy to allow yourselves to be this 'detached'.

This is something that at the very least will haunt this nation or come around to bite us on the ass with real terrorist attack & global hate & resentment.

Unadult.

INEXCUSABLE!

Go back to page one and two, Bill left most of the pictures and they do have blood and gore and look pretty relevant to me.


Lady Mod

disrupter
12-12-2007, 05:46 AM
Thank You Bill.

We must be honest with ourselves if with no one else.

We don't have to torture ourselves, but we must at least scratch or scrape ourselves with the swords & knives we wield.

Even if it were insane to be consistently moral & decent the fact that people have memories builds in a logic to support it,

purely on rational grounds.

The reason you are decent, fair & considerate is because people have memories. It makes good business sense over the long term.
If you kill someone or treat them shabby they have a family.
Even if you kill a family even neutral observers will see what you have done & attribute it to you.

People have eyes & ears & minds with memories.

They even have some ability to calculate that which they have not directly seen.

If one thinks one can get away with endless unmitigated deceit it underestimates human intelligence.

If an alien does something we may not be able to spot it,
but we are filtered to spot human deceit when we see it.

Our nation is being overrun by alien invaders,
Our government is largely run by corporate crooks,
We are losing the core of our nation,
The value of our currency is dropping,
But what pains what's left of my heart is i can't even say with any kind of conviction we don't deserve it.

So i guess i will toughen my heart a little bit more,
live defensively as i can figure,
& hedge my bets for America.

The entrance to hell is reputed to read
Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here,
Well if this place goes to hell, let it not be because of our irresponsibilities.

If we die, we die with peace of mind.
We did everything reasonable we could to live constructively,
we had a some fun when that made some sense,
And if there is anything that can't understand that,
kill it, with my blessings.

Frankg
12-12-2007, 06:56 AM
Go back to page one and two, Bill left most of the pictures and they do have blood and gore and look pretty relevant to me.


Lady Mod

Well of course they're relevant, its a known fact, the only time US soldiers matter anything to the leftists is when they need to promote thier twisted beliefs

If you wackadoodles cared anything about this country you wouldn't have a post dedicated to celebrating the deaths of US Soldiers

disrupter
12-12-2007, 07:15 AM
It isn't a celebration.
Nothing i would like better than a technologically progressive, kumbya world.
We all work hard during the day & have happy recreational sing-a-longs each night.

No dead US soldiers, No dead Iraqis [or anyone else].

But an adult accounting means we MUST be at least peripherally aware of what goes on.

Intellectual integrity demands it. btw that 'integrity' is not some moralistic slur, it is the rational articulation of mind, where measure & proportion matter.

Being cocaine numb or blind about what is going on is illogically dangerous except under very special, knowing, circumstances.

You are a real insult to human intelligence Frankg.
A danger in a voting democracy.
Don't know if you intend it, but you really don't measure up.
Maybe some people really are slated to be cannon fodder,
really aren't capable of intelligent democracy.

Feel free to prove me wrong.
I will be waiting.

LadyMod at scam.com
12-12-2007, 10:00 AM
Well of course they're relevant, its a known fact, the only time US soldiers matter anything to the leftists is when they need to promote thier twisted beliefs

If you wackadoodles cared anything about this country you wouldn't have a post dedicated to celebrating the deaths of US Soldiers

We don't. As usual you put your own vile spin on things. Yet we all know that you do not respect the Constitution, preferring a cloth emblem to a historical document.

You do not care if American rights are constantly taken away. Your preference being a "Police State" with Bush in charge.

And you haven't bothered to personally help a soldier since the war started. That's very apparent.

And you say WE don't care anything about our country? If it were up to you we would be living in the United States of Communist Russia. You, Traitor.




Lady Mod