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EldonG
11-24-2011, 11:24 AM
The Occupy movement is taking the protest where it might do the most good:

http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/153202/occupy_homes%3A_will_taking_the_fight_to_foreclose d_houses_unleash_more_police_violence

EldonG
11-24-2011, 07:41 PM
I figured some folks might be interested in this, but hey.

John Galt
11-24-2011, 07:49 PM
Foreclosed homes are private property. If they plan on entering....that's going to make for big problems.

nondual
11-24-2011, 09:02 PM
Foreclosed homes are private property. If they plan on entering....that's going to make for big problems.
Who owns it?

Hudaman
11-24-2011, 11:19 PM
Who owns it?

Not the occupiers. Who the hell cares who's property they are trespassing on. They are trespassing, and if they are forcibly removed, they have no complaint. This is about the stupidest strategy I've heard. What's the point? Let's trespass. Good grief.

Keyser Soze
11-25-2011, 09:09 AM
Who owns it?
In most cases they can't show ownership.

tutonic
11-25-2011, 09:22 AM
In most cases they can't show ownership.

Most? False. And even in cases where the paper was hypothecated and they temporarily can't track the paper trail, you admit the purchaser owes somebody, right?

Pay or GTFO. No free homes.:talktothehand:

tutonic
11-25-2011, 09:25 AM
I figured some folks might be interested in this, but hey.

It's unlawful trespass. The cops will probably do what they are paid to do in such cases. If a group of aristocrats decided to park their Bentleys on my lawn, I'd call the cops. Wouldn't you?

Pointgold
11-25-2011, 10:02 AM
Nice to see the voices of reason are the majority on this thread.

nondual
11-25-2011, 10:09 AM
In most cases they can't show ownership.
Which means that foreclosure cannot go forward.

nondual
11-25-2011, 10:11 AM
Not the occupiers. Who the hell cares who's property they are trespassing on. They are trespassing, and if they are forcibly removed, they have no complaint. This is about the stupidest strategy I've heard. What's the point? Let's trespass. Good grief.
Show ownership, then go forward with foreclosure.

Keyser Soze
11-25-2011, 10:11 AM
Most? False. And even in cases where the paper was hypothecated and they temporarily can't track the paper trail, you admit the purchaser owes somebody, right?

Pay or GTFO. No free homes.:talktothehand:Did you read the OP? It isn't about getting a 'free home' fool.

Keyser Soze
11-25-2011, 10:15 AM
Which means that foreclosure cannot go forward.
But they are, constantly foreclosing and throwing people out of their homes even when there are clear options available that would keep people in their homes.

They (the banks) created this mess and once again are being given free reign to do as they please while the rest of us (the 99%) have to toe the line.

Which is the point.....(I know you're aware of it...this for those who consider themselves 'reasonable')

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 10:43 AM
But they are, constantly foreclosing and throwing people out of their homes even when there are clear options available that would keep people in their homes.

They (the banks) created this mess and once again are being given free reign to do as they please while the rest of us (the 99%) have to toe the line.

Which is the point.....(I know you're aware of it...this for those who consider themselves 'reasonable')

Sorry, that is not the responsibility of the owner of a property. Nor is it good for business or good for the economy. Foreclosure is unfortunate, but I have no sympathy for someone who is losing their home after a cash out refi, or a neg am mortgage, or a ARM reset. If you secured a loan based on the belief that home values were automatically going to go up, then you shouldn't be in the home in the first place. Lots of people are being given the opportunity for short sales. They should be counting their blessings. You see greedy banks foreclosing on poor mistreated homeowners. I see lots of irresponsible individuals who couldn't wait to cash out the equity in their home and spend like drunken sailors.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 10:43 AM
Show ownership, then go forward with foreclosure.

WTF does that have to do with someone squatting on private property? How about this? Pay your fucking mortgage.

nondual
11-25-2011, 10:47 AM
WTF does that have to do with someone squatting on private property? How about this? Pay your fucking mortgage.
Pay to whom?

nondual
11-25-2011, 10:47 AM
AlterNet / By Sarah Jaffe (http://www.alternet.org/authors/5191/)

92% of Foreclosures in New York Lack Proper Documents -- Banks Booting People Without Proof? (http://www.alternet.org/story/152030/92_of_foreclosures_in_new_york_lack_proper_documen ts_--_banks_booting_people_without_proof)

There's a staggering amount of bad paperwork in citywide foreclosures -- not just in New York, but around the country.

August 15, 2011 | Ninety-two percent.

That's how many of the foreclosures on bankrupt families in and around New York City had no proof the creditors had the right to foreclose.

In a three-month investigation, the New York Post (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/house_of_cards_hNdx5fNGt6oOl1U9mTW0HN#ixzz1V7KSkSW R)—a tabloid owned by Rupert Murdoch and usually better known for its salacious headlines than its investigative journalism—found that in nearly all of the foreclosure proceedings, “banks have attempted to steamroll their way over sometimes-outgunned homeowners,” booting them out of their homes even if they didn't have proper documentation that gave them the right to do so.

The Post went through more than 150 Chapter 13 bankruptcy filings from June of last year, pulled a random sample, and:


“...unearthed claims riddled with robosigners, suspicious documents and outrageous fees. And in a stunning 37 out of 40 cases, The Post discovered a broken chain of title from the original lender to the company now making claim against a local family for its home and thousands of dollars in questionable fees.

In other words, the bank or mortgage servicer filing the claim failed to prove it has any right at all to make a claim it was owed the debt or that it could seize the home in question.”

And it's not just New Yorkers who are still struggling.

Eighty-seven-year-old Margery Gunter, of Immokalee, Florida, who has lived in her home for 40 years, is on the verge of losing it to foreclosure by OneWest Bank, Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/19/us-foreclosure-banks-idUSTRE76H5XX20110719) reported last month in an investigation into the continuing problems with mortgage documents. "If they take the house," she told Reuters reporter Scot J. Paltrow, "they'll take me, too."

More here (http://www.alternet.org/story/152030/92_of_foreclosures_in_new_york_lack_proper_documen ts_--_banks_booting_people_without_proof).

nondual
11-25-2011, 10:48 AM
Fiscal Scandals: Goldman Sachs May Have Misled Investors, Banks Investigated for Collusion (http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/559930/fiscal_scandals%3A_goldman_sachs_may_have_misled_i nvestors%2C_banks_investigated_for_collusion/)

At this point, news of big banks engaging in illegal and unethical activities is no real shocker, but that doesn't make it any less infuriating. And today, there are not one but two gems for you to gnaw on, via Daily Beast.

First, a two-year Senate Panel inquiry into Goldman Sachs has shown the firm may have misled both Congress and investors about housing market securities. Senator Carl Levin, D-MI, wants the Justice Department and the SEC to investigate 'whether Goldman Sachs violated the law by misleading clients who bought the complex securities known as collateralized debt obligations without knowing the firm would benefit if they fell in value,' reports Bloomberg. Read more here. (http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/559930/fiscal_scandals%3A_goldman_sachs_may_have_misled_i nvestors%2C_banks_investigated_for_collusion/)

By Julianne Escobedo Shepherd | AlterNet
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011

nondual
11-25-2011, 10:48 AM
America's 50 Attorneys General Have the Power to Stop the Banks from Kicking People Out of Their Homes -- Will They Use It? (http://www.alternet.org/story/149784/)

By Mary Bottari, Bankster USA
Posted on February 2, 2011, Printed on February 4, 2011

Rumor has it that the 50 state attorney general investigation into the Fraudclosure scandal is wrapping up. It's time for a backbone check. Will the state attorneys general just ask the big banks and service providers to turn over a chunk of change from seemingly bottomless pockets? (This strategy was pursued by the Security and Exchange Commission (SEC) with little impact). Or will Iowa Attorney General Tom Miller take the lead in wrestling a real settlement out of the banks so that families hammered by unemployment and underemployment can stay in their homes?


Widespread Criminality

Americans know that the big banks and the mortgage service providers got us into this hole by pursuing an array of financial crimes. The SEC settlements alone have revealed a plethora of illegal, predatory and deceptive lending related to mortgages, securities fraud, accounting fraud, insider trading, brokerage fraud, bribery of government officials, criminal conflict of interest, deception of shareholders and investors, and more.

Now the "robo-signing" scandal is pulling back the curtain on Act II of this white collar crime spree -- revealing a new array of financial crimes by the very same institutions: robo-signing, fake witnesses, fake notaries, fake documents, fake attorneys, not to mention plain old theft as servicers rob consumers of hundreds or thousands of dollars in misapplied fees. There are additional crimes related to the way that banks have failed to correctly transfer promissory notes through the system and efforts to mislead and defraud investors. The short story is that many homeowners were foreclosed upon based on falsified documents by a bank who was not the true holder of the mortgage note. This is a crisis not only for individual homeowners, but investors who bought flaws mortgage-backed securities and for financial system as a whole.


Not a Single Prosecution of a Major Player

Perverse incentives on Wall Street allowed top executives to make more money on flawed loans than boring old 30-year mortgages. Even though there is widespread agreement that Wall Street’s endless appetite for high-interest, high-fees loans to fuel the mortgage securitization machine had a causal role in supercharging the housing bubble, not one mortgage servicer provider or big bank CEO has been put in jail. This compares to over 1,000 successful prosecutions of top officers during the Savings and Loan crisis of the late 1980s.

While the SEC has been churning out fines resulting in a long list of "settlements", Wall Street firms are beginning to set aside money and treat these actions merely as the cost of doing business.

There is nothing more instructive than jail time, but the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) has been hoodwinked by America’s biggest hoodlums, preferring to arrest a string of penny-ante Jersey mobsters than the Mafioso hiding in plain sight at Wall Street and Broadway. The DOJ delights in arresting people like Vinny Carwash" Frogiero, Frank "Meatball" Ballantoni, Anthino "Hootie" Russo. How about Jamie “Pretty Boy” Dimon, Lloyd “Godswork” Blankfein and Vikram “Slumdog“ Pandit?


History is Calling

In the history of the financial crisis, state AGs have so far come out looking pretty good. State AGs were the first in the nation to recognize that the predatory lending practices of firms such as Ameriquest (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Ameriquest) and Countrywide (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Countrywide) were a danger to consumers and to the entire U.S. economy. In 2004, they were radically preempted from taking action against these crimes by Bush-appointed federal regulators at the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency. Now state AGs have another moment to outshine negligent federal prosecutors.

State AGs can take a series of actions that the Feds have failed to take. First of all, they can book the crooks and force top officers to trade pinstripes for jail stripes. Secondly, they can force the banks into settlements with individual homeowners that really take a bite out of their profits, complete with foreclosure redos and damages for harmed homeowners. They can also subject the banks to ongoing independent audits of their foreclosure procedures and they can demand that the banks force principle write downs and other across-the-board measures that will stabilize communities and the economy.


February 3rd National Day of Action

National People's Action and other foreclosure groups area calling for a national day of action to urge the AGs to do the right thing. You can go to BanskterUSA.org (http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/632/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=5656) to email the lead investigator, Iowa AG Tom Miller, and tell him to do the right thing. You can also click here to find your AG's phone number so you can ask him or her directly for meaningful action on foreclosure.

If you are struggling with these issues, think about meeting up with your neighbors. "Mortgage Madness Meetups" are being facilitated by Huffington Post. The next worldwide meetup day (http://www.meetup.com/HuffingtonPost/) is February 8th. Finally, if you are trapped in the snow today check out Dylan Ratigan's special series on the housing crisis "No Way to Live" (http://www.dylanratigan.com/nowaytolive/) on MSNBC.


Mary Bottari is the Director of the Center for Media and Democracy’s Real Economy Project and editor of the www.BanksterUSA.org site for bank busting activists.

© 2011 Bankster USA All rights reserved.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 10:53 AM
Pay to whom?

The people who own the servicing of the loan, stupid.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 11:05 AM
So, take out a bunch of cash and spend like a drunken sailor, then don't pay your mortgage and hope like hell the servicer of the loan can't prove ownership. Great strategy. Small wonder we are in this fucking mess, when people like nondual give a free pass to those whose irresponsibility have cost everyone. It's like Obamaphobia. EVERYTHING is the fault of banks and corporations. Absolute stupidity.

nondual
11-25-2011, 11:06 AM
The people who own the servicing of the loan, stupid.
I would pay ONLY if they can show ownership.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 11:09 AM
I would pay ONLY if they can show ownership.

They don't have to HAVE ownership. If they own the servicing (and they do), you owe them the fucking money. Pay up. Freeloaders like you give honest hardworking people a bad name. Some people need help. You want a free ride.

nondual
11-25-2011, 11:13 AM
They don't have to HAVE ownership. If they own the servicing (and they do), you owe them the fucking money. Pay up. Freeloaders like you give honest hardworking people a bad name. Some people need help. You want a free ride.
Pay even if they can't show any paperwork to prove ownership? Only in La-La Land.

tutonic
11-25-2011, 11:17 AM
Not the occupiers. Who the hell cares who's property they are trespassing on. They are trespassing, and if they are forcibly removed, they have no complaint. This is about the stupidest strategy I've heard. What's the point? Let's trespass. Good grief.


Correct. Either the bank owns it or the evicted persons. Strangers to the transaction have no rights whatsoever.

Keyser Soze
11-25-2011, 11:17 AM
The people who own the servicing of the loan, stupid.
They don't know who owns it...maybe the taxpayers own it...maybe no one owns it...who was the first white man who decided he 'owned' the land? Maybe there's a last one as well...lol

Seriously...that's the point. Read some of the links that have been posted...or don't...whatever.

tutonic
11-25-2011, 11:19 AM
Pay even if they can't show any paperwork to prove ownership? Only in La-La Land.

In that case the moral position would be to tender payment to the party you promised to pay, or whichever assigns you do have notice of, or barring that, file an interpleader action and make payment to the court.

There is no moral framework which can assemble a right to be a thief. It's like the guy who runs a red light doing 100mph and hopes the cop doesn't show up to ct. It may work for you, but don't act like its ethical or that you did not break the law. That's low order human stuff.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 11:20 AM
They don't know who owns it...maybe the taxpayers own it...maybe no one owns it...who was the first white man who decided he 'owned' the land? Maybe there's a last one as well...lol

Seriously...that's the point. Read some of the links that have been posted...or don't...whatever.

Wrong. Servicing is servicing, and the bank that sends you the monthly statement and receives your payments is LEGALLY ENTITLED TO DO SO. Period. The ignorance on this is staggering.

Keyser Soze
11-25-2011, 11:20 AM
In that case the moral position would be to tender payment to the party you promised to pay, or whichever assigns you do have notice of, or barring that, file an interpleader action and make payment to the court.

There is no moral framework which can assemble a right to be a thief.
Tell that to the banks.

nondual
11-25-2011, 11:21 AM
Judge Dismissed $292,500 in Debt Due to Shady Lender Practices -- Wall St. Freaks Out (http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/325710/judge_dismissed_$292,500_in_debt_due_to_shady_lend er_practices_--_wall_st._freaks_out/#paragraph3) :lmao2:

As if the foreclosure crisis wasn't distressing enough, it's come to light that some homeowners have been victim to sloppy and even fraudulent paperwork filed by mortgage companies. Luckily, judges are starting to recognize these instances and rule in favor of the homeowners––a move that has big banks shaking.

Last year, Long Island judge Jeffrey Spinner dismissed a foreclosure case––and $292,500 in debt––because the paperwork was so haphazard, reports the Washington Post. He called the lender's behavior "repugnant" and gave homeowner Diane Yano-Horoski's her house back. The ruling is being appealed by lender OneWest Bank, but if it sets a legal precedent it could have strong implications on the future of foreclosure cases. According to OneWest Bank, "We believe the Yano-Horoski ruling, if allowed to stand, has sweeping and dangerous implications for the entire mortgage lending industry."

[...]

nondual
11-25-2011, 11:21 AM
Fed Creates Hundreds of Billions Out of Thin Air: Have We Launched an Economic War on the Rest of the World? (http://www.alternet.org/story/148774/)


MICHAEL HUDSON: The world is dividing into two currency blocs. And over the last few months, China has gone to Turkey, Malaysia, Thailand, and said, "We want to avoid using the dollar altogether." They’re treating it like a pariah currency. They’re saying, "Well, let’s make a currency swap. We’ll give you our Chinese RMB, you give us your currency, the baht, and we’ll do our trade in our own currency. We are isolating the dollar, so that people are not going to use the dollar anymore." That’s why the dollar is plunging on world foreign exchange markets. The whole world that America created after World War II of open markets is now closing off. And it’s closing off, really, because the United States is trying to rescue the real estate market from all the junk mortgages, all the crooked loans, all of the financial fraud, instead of just letting the fraud go and throwing the guys in jail like other economists have suggested.

nondual
11-25-2011, 11:24 AM
State AGs Sue Bank of America (http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/12/nevada-arizona-foreclosure-bank-of-america?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+Motherjones/mojoblog+(MotherJones.com+|+MoJoBlog))
— By Andy Kroll| Mon Dec. 20, 2010

As officials from all 50 states investigate the causes of the recent "Foreclosure-gate" fiasco, two attorneys general have decided to go after Wall Street on their own. On Friday, Arizona and Nevada's attorneys general slapped Bank of America and its mortgage servicing subsidiary with a blistering lawsuit (PDF). The states say the lender made "false assurances" about modifying homeowners' mortgages while foreclosing on them at the same time and gave "inaccurate and deceptive reasons" for rejecting loan modification requests. "Nevadans who were trying desperately to save their homes were unable to get truthful information in order to make critical life decisions," Nevada attorney general Catherine Masto said in a statement.

The states suing Bank of America are among the hardest hit in the housing meltdown. In the third quarter of 2010, Nevada led the country in foreclosures, with one in every 99 properties in foreclosure—five times the national average. What's more, 54 percent of all home sales in the Silver State were of foreclosed properties, according to RealtyTrac. Arizona had the fourth-highest foreclosure rate.

[...] (http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/12/nevada-arizona-foreclosure-bank-of-america?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+Motherjones/mojoblog+(MotherJones.com+|+MoJoBlog))

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 11:25 AM
Pay even if they can't show any paperwork to prove ownership? Only in La-La Land.

Pay the servicer of the loan, as tutonic has suggested. Servicing of a mortgage is transferred separately from ownership, and you agree to that arrangement when you sign the mortgage. The question of who owns the mortgage itself should never be an issue, if you are paying on time. People are simply looking for a way out of a personal obligation. It's a large part of why we are in this mess. Irresponsible borrowers who are now looking for a way to weasel out of their obligations.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 11:26 AM
Tell that to the banks.

This is why occupy Wall Street is losing me. Advocating irresponsibility and lack of integrity isn't my cup of tea. Sorry.

nondual
11-25-2011, 11:28 AM
This is why occupy Wall Street is losing me. Advocating irresponsibility and lack of integrity isn't my cup of tea. Sorry.
Making Sense of the Foreclosure Mess (http://www.yesmagazine.org/new-economy/making-sense-of-the-foreclosure-mess)

Why are mortgage holders suspending foreclosures? And what does it mean for homeowners?

by Doug Pibel
posted Oct 13, 2010

The attorneys general of all 50 states and Washington, D.C. are launching a joint investigation into foreclosures. Why? Because it’s looking like mortgage holders have been asking courts to hand over people’s homes even if the mortgage holders don’t have the evidence that the law requires. Even if they don’t have the promissory note that establishes the debt, and never have had it. Even if they don’t have any firsthand knowledge that the note ever existed.

[...] (http://www.yesmagazine.org/new-economy/making-sense-of-the-foreclosure-mess)

nondual
11-25-2011, 11:29 AM
Homeowner Beats Bank Of America In Small Claims Court (http://www.alternet.org/rss/breakingnews/423202/homeowner_beats_bank_of_america_in_small_claims_co urt/)

A California homeowner sued Bank of America in small claims court and won $7,595 from the bank after it burned him on a mortgage modification.

"It was a good victory for me and I think for homeowners around the country," Dave Graham told HuffPost.

Graham, who lives in Big Bear City, Calif., applied for a loan modification under the Obama administration's Home Affordable Modification Program, which is supposed to give eligible borrowers a "permanent" five-year modification if they make reduced payments during a three-month trial period.

Read More... (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/04/homeowner-beats-bank-of-a_n_804171.html)

More on Bank Of America (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/bank-of-america/)

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 11:30 AM
Your ability to spam the forums is duly noted. Can you stop now?

I get it nondual. You want people to welch on their mortgages and make the rest of us pay the price.

nondual
11-25-2011, 11:31 AM
In other words, the bank or mortgage servicer filing the claim failed to prove it has any right at all to make a claim it was owed the debt or that it could seize the home in question.”

http://www.alternet.org/story/152030/92_of_foreclosures_in_new_york_lack_proper_documen ts_--_banks_booting_people_without_proof

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 11:36 AM
In other words, the bank or mortgage servicer filing the claim failed to prove it has any right at all to make a claim it was owed the debt or that it could seize the home in question.”

http://www.alternet.org/story/152030/92_of_foreclosures_in_new_york_lack_proper_documen ts_--_banks_booting_people_without_proof

You still don't have a fucking clue, but you keep posting anyway. Please feel free to continue. THEY HAD THE RIGHT TO COLLECT THE DEBT on behalf of the note holder in the form of mortgage payments. It's that fucking simple, but you are too fucking stupid to understand it. Pay your fucking mortgage, freeloader.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 11:44 AM
This argument is a loser. If you pursue it, you will lose any hope of effecting change. You just look like a bunch of freeloaders who lack integrity and personal responsibility. This argument plays right into the hands of those who portray the OWS movement in a negative light.

If you refuse to advocate for integrity, for personal responsibility, why bother? You are no better than the banks you claim are destroying the country.

John Galt
11-25-2011, 11:58 AM
In other words, the bank or mortgage servicer filing the claim failed to prove it has any right at all to make a claim it was owed the debt or that it could seize the home in question.”

http://www.alternet.org/story/152030/92_of_foreclosures_in_new_york_lack_proper_documen ts_--_banks_booting_people_without_proof
What does this, or any other post you've made in this thread have to do with the OP?

The Occupy movement is vandalizing private property.

That's a bad idea.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:08 PM
This is a bizarre strategy, IMHO. The fact that the servicer of a loan can't establish who holds the note doesn't change the fact that there IS a note, and the person who borrowed the money is obligated to pay it back. The debt does not vanish, nor does the obligation to pay the servicer of that debt. It's utter rubbish. Maybe the servicer doesn't know who holds the note, but the one thing we are certain of is that OWS does NOT hold it.

hd79
11-25-2011, 12:10 PM
There were some financial institutions, such as Wells Fargo, that were found guilty in court of pushing bad loans and misrepresenting the financial statements of those applying for loans, and that firm in particular has been ordered to make reparations to those affected by those practices.

Lord knows I am hardly going to defend the big banks and investment firms that were pushing loans off on people and then making hedges and bets against the very loans they themselves were issuing.

The above being said however, I do not condone those who defaulted on their payments, or complete strangers who have absolutely no claim to the property, attempting to occupy the property.

nondual
11-25-2011, 12:11 PM
What does this, or any other post you've made in this thread have to do with the OP?

The Occupy movement is vandalizing private property.

That's a bad idea.
Private? Who owns it?

Prove ownership, then claim it as private property, that's the way it works in America.

Also, take into account that many of those home occupations are taking place with the owners' blessings.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:13 PM
Private? Who owns it?

Prove ownership, then claim it as private property, that's the way it works in America.

Also, take into account that many of those home occupations are taking place with the owners' blessings.

:confused:

So, I can break into your house and take up residence, and it is YOUR obligation to prove to ME that you own the house.

AWESOME. I wonder what mansion I should start with?

God, you are one stupid SOB.

nondual
11-25-2011, 12:14 PM
This is a bizarre strategy, IMHO. The fact that the servicer of a loan can't establish who holds the note doesn't change the fact that there IS a note, and the person who borrowed the money is obligated to pay it back. The debt does not vanish, nor does the obligation to pay the servicer of that debt. It's utter rubbish. Maybe the servicer doesn't know who holds the note, but the one thing we are certain of is that OWS does NOT hold it.
Good! Now, stop the foreclosures until they have proof of ownership!

Also, throw the perps in jail!

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:15 PM
There were some financial institutions, such as Wells Fargo, that were found guilty in court of pushing bad loans and misrepresenting the financial statements of those applying for loans, and that firm in particular has been ordered to make reparations to those affected by those practices.

Lord knows I am hardly going to defend the big banks and investment firms that were pushing loans off on people and then making hedges and bets against the very loans they themselves were issuing.

The above being said however, I do not condone those who defaulted on their payments, or complete strangers who have absolutely no claim to the property, attempting to occupy the property.

Good post. I agree, although I don't fault anyone for making hedges. Everyone does it, it's called insurance. Insurance is just a hedge bet against an unexpected occurance.

nondual
11-25-2011, 12:15 PM
:confused:

So, I can break into your house and take up residence, and it is YOUR obligation to prove to ME that you own the house.

AWESOME. I wonder what mansion I should start with?

God, you are one stupid SOB.
:crazzy:

Not what's going on at all.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:15 PM
Good! Now, stop the foreclosures until they have proof of ownership!

Also, throw the perps in jail!

Not the issue. You claimed you are not obligated to pay your mortgage until the servicer can prove who holds the note.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:16 PM
:crazzy:

Not what's going on at all.

You were the one who claimed I have that right, stupid. And actually, that's EXACTLY what's going on.

nondual
11-25-2011, 12:19 PM
You were the one who claimed I have that right, stupid. And actually, that's EXACTLY what's going on.
Go read the OP.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:24 PM
Go read the OP.

Are you fucking serious?


We have occupied a bank-owned house in the northeast suitable to house 30 to 40 people (and encourage others to do the same)" they wrote on a flyer left at the house

It's called trespassing on private property. You claim they have that right until the bank can show ownership. You claim this is how it works in America. Great, I'll just head out to the Hamptons, find an unoccupied summer home, move in 30 or 40 people, and then demand someone prove who owns it before I leave. I'm well within my rights according to you.

What a dumbass.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:26 PM
There is now, apparently an orchestrated effort by OWS to occupy foreclosed homes on a large scale on December 6th. They've completely lost me.

nondual
11-25-2011, 12:27 PM
Investigation finds GMAC falsified paperwork to pursue foreclosure (http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/40721)

July 27, 2011 06:30PM

Nationwide mortgage servicer GMAC, which was the beneficiary of a taxpayer bailout in 2008, submitted false documentation to foreclose on homeowners for whom it lacked original lending paperwork, according to information obtained by ProPublica.

In one case, GMAC wanted to foreclose on a New York City homeowner, but couldn't sign documents in the name of the original lender as is customary because the company, Ameriquest, had gone out of business. So GMAC allegedly filed a document dated July 2010, three years after Ameriquest folded, that said it had been assigned the loan in 2005. It was signed by a GMAC executive claiming to be a "Limited Signing Officer" for Ameriquest, the paperwork says.

"This assignment of mortgage has all of the markings of GMAC finding that it lacked a needed mortgage assignment in order to foreclose, and [was] just making it up," said Thomas Cox, a Maine foreclosure defense attorney. Another attorney called it outright fraud. But GMAC continues to pursue foreclosure in the New York case.

This is different from the practice known as robo-signing where lenders claim a more intimate knowledge of the underlying mortgage than they actually have. The ProPublica investigation shows GMAC was producing false documents and likely submitted hundreds of them to government agencies across the country. [ProPublica (http://www.propublica.org/article/gmac-mortgage-whistleblower-foreclosure)]

---------

Fuck the thieves! Give Americans due process.

hd79
11-25-2011, 12:28 PM
Good post. I agree, although I don't fault anyone for making hedges. Everyone does it, it's called insurance. Insurance is just a hedge bet against an unexpected occurance.
Let's just say that I am not entirely convinced that the financial institutions were hedging against an "unexpected occurrence". I belevie many of them either knew or had reasonable expectations that many of the loans were bad or would be going to default, and that the "bubble" was going to burst very soon.

Nevertheless, I expect any publicity over this strategy of the OWS movement to garner negative publicity and may very well turn the tide of public opinion against them.

nondual
11-25-2011, 12:29 PM
Are you fucking serious?



It's called trespassing on private property. You claim they have that right until the bank can show ownership. You claim this is how it works in America. Great, I'll just head out to the Hamptons, find an unoccupied summer home, move in 30 or 40 people, and then demand someone prove who owns it before I leave. I'm well within my rights according to you.

What a dumbass.
http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/153202/occupy_homes%3A_will_taking_the_fight_to_foreclose d_houses_unleash_more_police_violence


The group has been successful in getting speedy foreclosures and evictions a second look. They help elderly people who may have been preyed upon by the big banks, raising hell on their lawns until the media show up. If enough media attention lands on the case, a local politician will occasionally get involved and personally oversee negotiations between residents and banks.

Rameau says that although the actions often lead to arrests, police are generally mindful of the optics of manhandling octogenarians in the age of cell phone cameras. However, he believes that if the tactics of "occupying" property continue to grow, in part thanks to actions taken by the Occupy movement, we'd likely see more extreme efforts by law enforcement to shut them down.

"We expect as we take back land, and it grows in number and size, and the impact on banks becomes bigger ... the finance industry to push the government to crack down." The government, he argues, is likely to oblige. "We are fully expecting a crackdown to come."

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:30 PM
Let's just say that I am not entirely convinced that the financial institutions were hedging against an "unexpected occurrence". I belevie many of them either knew or had reasonable expectations that many of the loans were bad or would be going to default, and that the "bubble" was going to burst very soon.

Nevertheless, I expect any publicity over this strategy of the OWS movement to garner negative publicity and may very well turn the tide of public opinion against them.

Yes, they did. However, I think they were banking on a continued cycle of rising home prices and refinances. No pun intended.

nondual
11-25-2011, 12:32 PM
Let's just say that I am not entirely convinced that the financial institutions were hedging against an "unexpected occurrence". I belevie many of them either knew or had reasonable expectations that many of the loans were bad or would be going to default, and that the "bubble" was going to burst very soon.

Nevertheless, I expect any publicity over this strategy of the OWS movement to garner negative publicity and may very well turn the tide of public opinion against them.
I hate thieves!

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:32 PM
http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/153202/occupy_homes%3A_will_taking_the_fight_to_foreclose d_houses_unleash_more_police_violence

What group? OWS? They just started, and the articles you are posting are from over a year ago. Good God, get a clue. OWS is engaging in criminal behavior by trespassing, and they should be treated as criminals. Period.

nondual
11-25-2011, 12:35 PM
What group? OWS? They just started, and the articles you are posting are from over a year ago. Good God, get a clue. OWS is engaging in criminal behavior by trespassing, and they should be treated as criminals. Period.
Fuck the fucking thieves!

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:36 PM
Fuck the fucking thieves!

I guess criminal behavior by those you agree with is okay though, right?

nondual
11-25-2011, 12:39 PM
I guess criminal behavior by those you agree with is okay though, right?
The banks are the criminals and you know it.

nondual
11-25-2011, 12:40 PM
Take the property or burn it down to the ground! Fuck the banksters!

hd79
11-25-2011, 12:40 PM
I hate thieves!
Well as stated previously, I am hardly going to defend big banks and investment firms, as my view is much of the financial crises were the result of deregulation and they were hardly effective at "policing their own", thus much of it is the big banks and investment firms fault, imo.

However, I do believe this strategy and tactic by OWS will only result in them losing public support.

We no longer live in the days of the wild west and vigilantism, and I do not condone any others breaking the law merely because "others" did and may have gotten away with it.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:41 PM
The banks are the criminals and you know it.

I guess criminal behavior by those you agree with is okay, right?

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:41 PM
Take the property or burn it down to the ground! Fuck the banksters!

Enjoy your time in jail.

nondual
11-25-2011, 12:42 PM
I guess criminal behavior by those you agree with is okay, right?
It is you who agrees with the banks, not me. :taunt:

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:44 PM
Well as stated previously, I am hardly going to defend big banks and investment firms, as my view is much of the financial crises were the result of deregulation and they were hardly effective at "policing their own", thus much of it is the big banks and investment firms fault, imo.

However, I do believe this strategy and tactic by OWS will only result in them losing public support.

We no longer live in the days of the wild west and vigilantism, and I do not condone any others breaking the law merely because "others" did and may have gotten away with it.

Yep, this is not the way to gain support. It is trespassing, and it proves nothing. There was a case here in Minneapolis where some protesters occupied a home that was seized by US bank. The homeowner had bought the home with an ARM, and couldn't make the payments after the ARM reset. Whose fault is that??? Hello???

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:45 PM
It is you who agrees with the banks, not me. :taunt:

No, I don't. I have not ONCE supported or advocated a criminal behavior. You have. Speaks volumes.

nondual
11-25-2011, 12:45 PM
Well as stated previously, I am hardly going to defend big banks and investment firms, as my view is much of the financial crises were the result of deregulation and they were hardly effective at "policing their own", thus much of it is the big banks and investment firms fault, imo.

However, I do believe this strategy and tactic by OWS will only result in them losing public support.

We no longer live in the days of the wild west and vigilantism, and I do not condone any others breaking the law merely because "others" did and may have gotten away with it.
The whole legal process at our disposition is a farce, why abide by it?

nondual
11-25-2011, 12:46 PM
No, I don't. I have not ONCE supported or advocated a criminal behavior. You have. Speaks volumes.
I know, you just defend it. :hi:

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:47 PM
I know, you just defend it. :hi:

No, I don't. I guess lying is yet another of your moral failures.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 12:48 PM
The whole legal process at our disposition is a farce, why abide by it?

Good luck with that.

:hi:

EldonG
11-25-2011, 03:18 PM
Wait...it's criminal behavior to stop an illegal foreclosure?

Did everyone read the *whole* article?

In some cases, the banks have renegotiated.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 03:21 PM
Wait...it's criminal behavior to stop an illegal foreclosure?

Did everyone read the *whole* article?

In some cases, the banks have renegotiated.

Yes, it is criminal behavior to stop an 'illegal' foreclosure by unilaterally occupying the foreclosed property when you have no interest in it. There are remedies, and their are interested parties. OWS has no business interjecting themselves into a legal dispute between two parties. They have no interest. If the foreclosure is illegal, it won't take place.

EldonG
11-25-2011, 03:27 PM
Yes, it is criminal behavior to stop an 'illegal' foreclosure by unilaterally occupying the foreclosed property when you have no interest in it. There are remedies, and their are interested parties. OWS has no business interjecting themselves into a legal dispute between two parties. They have no interest. If the foreclosure is illegal, it won't take place.
That's all well and good, in theory.

I'm sorry, if a 'homeowner' (someone buying their home from the bank, as MOST in this country are) invites you to stay on their property, unless there are codes against camping, that's all legal.

The banks are nose-deep involved in fraud, nowadays. Are you claiming we have no right to put an end to it?

So, to hell with all those families being put on the street.

nondual
11-25-2011, 03:31 PM
That's all well and good, in theory.

I'm sorry, if a 'homeowner' (someone buying their home from the bank, as MOST in this country are) invites you to stay on their property, unless there are codes against camping, that's all legal.

The banks are nose-deep involved in fraud, nowadays. Are you claiming we have no right to put an end to it?

So, to hell with all those families being put on the street.
Maybe he has skin in the game. :dunno:

hd79
11-25-2011, 04:03 PM
Wait...it's criminal behavior to stop an illegal foreclosure?

Did everyone read the *whole* article?

In some cases, the banks have renegotiated. The article's opening paragraph stated 15 OWS protesters "occupied" a vacant foreclosed house. From that statement, it seems as though none of those occupying the house were the home owners, nor were they invited on the property by the homeowners.

Later on, the article talks about occupying the home of family's facing eviction, which is a far different matter than the situation presented in the opening paragraph.

As stated previously, I am hardly going to defend big banks and investment firms, but I truly do believe this tactic of wanton disobeying of the law is only going to hurt the movement, in the long run.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 04:05 PM
That's all well and good, in theory.

I'm sorry, if a 'homeowner' (someone buying their home from the bank, as MOST in this country are) invites you to stay on their property, unless there are codes against camping, that's all legal.

The banks are nose-deep involved in fraud, nowadays. Are you claiming we have no right to put an end to it?

So, to hell with all those families being put on the street.

It's not their property if the bank has foreclosed on it. They are no longer homeowners. If the bank has foreclosed, then by definition, the BANK is the homeowner. These are not properties in the process of being foreclosed on. These are vacant properties in which the homeowner has moved out and the bank has taken possession.

Once again, there are two sides to every story. I have no sympathy for those who chose to take out all of the equity in their home by securing a cash out refi for 100% of value or more so they could buy a flat screen TV, a new boat, a Caribbean cruise. At least half of all subprime loans that given out in the early 2000's were cash out refi's. Are the banks innocent? Of course not, but let's stop this horseshit about the these poor homeowners with their white hats and lily white motivations being tossed to the curb by evil bankers. THEY AREN'T PAYING THEIR MORTGAGE.

John Galt
11-25-2011, 04:05 PM
Wait...it's criminal behavior to stop an illegal foreclosure?

Did everyone read the *whole* article?

In some cases, the banks have renegotiated.
Being invited onto private property is not the same.

And, the banks didn't renegotiate the loan. They put off the eviction for a month or so.

Do these occupations draw attention to the issue? Yes.

When someone is about to be evicted, it helps to get an individual's story in the press.

When 40 people choose to vandalize an empty house to spread a 'screw the banks' message, that's very different.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 04:08 PM
Maybe he has skin in the game. :dunno:

Damn right I have skin in the game. The value of my house is down 250K as a result of this irresponsible behavior, and it will remain down as long as we have all these foreclosures in the pipeline. Every single person here has skin in the game. Did the banks screw us? Yep. But so did all these irresponsible people who took out those loans and are now refusing to pay the money back. They cost the rest of us trillions of dollars, and they sure as hell don't get a free pass from me. Sorry.

nondual
11-25-2011, 04:23 PM
Damn right I have skin in the game. The value of my house is down 250K as a result of this irresponsible behavior, and it will remain down as long as we have all these foreclosures in the pipeline. Every single person here has skin in the game. Did the banks screw us? Yep. But so did all these irresponsible people who took out those loans and are now refusing to pay the money back. They cost the rest of us trillions of dollars, and they sure as hell don't get a free pass from me. Sorry.
In 2009, there were more than 300 realtors convicted for fraud, how many homeowners were convicted of fraud? Look at Goldman Sachs, who recently agreed to pay a $550 million settlement for misleading investors in subprime mortgage products.

http://static.globalgrind.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/article_images_540/images/2011_november/enhanced-buzz-wide-4164-1321990716-21.jpg

Banks got bailed out, we got sold out!

tutonic
11-25-2011, 04:26 PM
Tell that to the banks.

Your tell it to the banks in court, or stand down!:D

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 04:28 PM
In 2009, there were more than 300 realtors convicted for fraud, how many homeowners were convicted of fraud? Look at Goldman Sachs, who recently agreed to pay a $550 million settlement for misleading investors in subprime mortgage products.

http://static.globalgrind.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/article_images_540/images/2011_november/enhanced-buzz-wide-4164-1321990716-21.jpg

Banks got bailed out, we got sold out!

So what? I have not held the banks harmless. Each party is responsible for their own actions. It's about time you and your ilk were held accountable as well. You've ripped us off as much as the banks have.

nondual
11-25-2011, 04:36 PM
So what? I have not held the banks harmless. Each party is responsible for their own actions. It's about time you and your ilk were held accountable as well. You've ripped us off as much as the banks have.
Me? My ilk? :crazzy:

You are clearly a snob, and I'm sorry to tell you you will have to adapt, like it or not. Big changes are coming, just look at the Middle East, and now Europe, it is a chain reaction, starting from the weakest, all the way up, to the strongest. So, start making the necessary changes, before it's too late. Changes are coming so fast, Congress won't even see it coming... they, as always, are totally disconnected from reality.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 04:38 PM
Me? My ilk? :crazzy:

You are clearly a snob, and I'm sorry to tell you you will have to adapt, like it or not. Big changes are coming, just look at the Middle East, and now Europe, it is a chain reaction, starting from the weakest, all the way up, to the strongest. So, start making the necessary changes, before it's too late. Changes are coming so fast, Congress won't even see it coming... they, as always, are totally disconnected from reality.

:lmao2: :lmao2:

I'll make sure I have the gates to the mansion locked and the scope calibrated. You are a joke.

Big Dog
11-25-2011, 04:39 PM
In 2009, there were more than 300 realtors convicted for fraud, how many homeowners were convicted of fraud? Look at Goldman Sachs, who recently agreed to pay a $550 million settlement for misleading investors in subprime mortgage products.



Banks got bailed out, we got sold out!


YOU supported the bank bailout, so WTF are you squealing about.

:crazzy:

.


.

John Galt
11-25-2011, 04:39 PM
In 2009, there were more than 300 realtors convicted for fraud, how many homeowners were convicted of fraud? Look at Goldman Sachs, who recently agreed to pay a $550 million settlement for misleading investors in subprime mortgage products.

http://static.globalgrind.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/article_images_540/images/2011_november/enhanced-buzz-wide-4164-1321990716-21.jpg

Banks got bailed out, we got sold out!
I remember talking with newbies to the mortgage industry during the boom. The lenders were hiring anyone who walked through the door, as they simply couldn't write mortgages fast enough to satisfy Wall St's demand.

This pencil pusher was trying to give me the rap about getting an ARM, and using the savings to invest in the market.

Then, when the rate adjusted, I'd have truckloads of money to apply toward principal, and refinance.

Anyone who fell for bullshit sales pitches like this, probably deserves to be homeless.

Are you saying that the people who 'fell' for the bogus terms of their contracts, have no liability in their own failure?

Were they forced to sign the paperwork?


Just because a person may be guilty of theft, doesn't mean they're responsible for murder, if someone commits suicide as a result of poor decisions.

Likewise, you cannot blame the banking system for every aspect of the foreclosure debacle.

Someone had to agree to really shitty terms, and now they're unhappy?

Warden
11-25-2011, 04:42 PM
:lmao2: :lmao2:

I'll make sure I have the gates to the mansion locked and the scope calibrated. You are a joke.

WOW, personal threats of violence is allowed here? really?,

you are one piece of shit dude, I truly hope you get the chance to put your money where you mouth is. :talktothehand:

Talk about being paid to protest, or to anti protest, what a great example of that right here.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 04:43 PM
I remember talking with newbies to the mortgage industry during the boom. The lenders were hiring anyone who walked through the door, as they simply couldn't write mortgages fast enough to satisfy Wall St's demand.

This pencil pusher was trying to give me the rap about getting an ARM, and using the savings to invest in the market.

Then, when the rate adjusted, I'd have truckloads of money to apply toward principal, and refinance.

Anyone who fell for bullshit sales pitches like this, probably deserves to be homeless.

Are you saying that the people who 'fell' for the bogus terms of their contracts, have no liability in their own failure?

Were they forced to sign the paperwork?


Just because a person may be guilty of theft, doesn't mean they're responsible for murder, if someone commits suicide as a result of poor decisions.

Likewise, you cannot blame the banking system for every aspect of the foreclosure debacle.

Someone had to agree to really shitty terms, and now they're unhappy?

You are so seldom right, I had to acknowledge it here.

:lmao2: :lmao2:

There were people who were victimized by unscrupulous real estate brokers, who were, btw, about a dime a dozen back in the heyday. But may people were looking for an excuse, any excuse, to be told it was okay to be handed a big pile of cash. Many of these people didn't WANT to know. They are friends and neighbors of mine. They aren't in a rush to give back the boat, or knock down the giant deck they put in, or the new bathroom, or new car. Funny how that works.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 04:44 PM
WOW, personal threats of violence is allowed here? really?,

you are one piece of shit dude, I truly hope you get the chance to put your money where you mouth is. :talktothehand:

Talk about being paid to protest, or to anti protest, what a great example of that right here.

Oh, no, poor baby, are you going to report me?

:lmao2:

Warden
11-25-2011, 04:47 PM
Oh, no, poor baby, are you going to report me?

:lmao2:

No, I think its funny, you just gave the one to Nondual clearly showing the last grasp of a failed argument and resorted to violence.

Awww, whats da matter hugsman? you wittle feeweings getting hurt. :hi:

You fucking dipshit. :lmao2:

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 04:50 PM
No, I think its funny, you just gave the one to Nondual clearly showing the last grasp of a failed argument and resorted to violence.

Awww, whats da matter hugsman? you wittle feeweings getting hurt. :hi:

You fucking dipshit. :lmao2:

You should try sending flowers if you want my attention this badly, troll. I was responding to his post in which he stated a) I was a snob, and b) I needed to be prepared for the changes that were coming, Middle East style. I'll be ready if the OWS people decide they want to occupy my home, as nondual suggests is their right. If you think that's a threat of violence, perhaps a change of diaper and a warm bottle is in order.

Big Dog
11-25-2011, 04:54 PM
WOW, personal threats of violence is allowed here? really?,

you are one piece of shit dude, I truly hope you get the chance to put your money where you mouth is. :talktothehand:

Talk about being paid to protest, or to anti protest, what a great example of that right here.

You oughta see the shit Hamill says. Hell, he expressed his hope that one of our female posters be raped.

There's no doubt that ND made the violent threat first. Many on the Left are calling for armed revolution. Of course for the Leftwing that's code for rioting, looting, and raping with a few murders thrown in for good measure.

All Hudaman did was warn the knucklehead that he will defend himself.

.

.

Warden
11-25-2011, 05:06 PM
You should try sending flowers if you want my attention this badly, troll. I was responding to his post in which he stated a) I was a snob, and b) I needed to be prepared for the changes that were coming, Middle East style. I'll be ready if the OWS people decide they want to occupy my home, as nondual suggests is their right. If you think that's a threat of violence, perhaps a change of diaper and a warm bottle is in order.

This is what you said.


I'll make sure I have the gates to the mansion locked and the scope calibrated. You are a joke.

and you are a snob, (I say a shitbag) changes could mean anything, He didnt say Middle east, he said Middle east OR Europe, doesn't have to mean violence, stop being a pussy. Occupy homes? That is this thread, empty homes, dumb dumb. Now you're just back peddling because you know you wrong.

:talktothehand:

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 05:07 PM
This is what you said.



and you are a snob, (I say a shitbag) changes could mean anything, He didnt say Middle east, he said Middle east OR Europe, doesn't have to mean violence, stop being a pussy. Occupy homes? That is this thread, empty homes, dumb dumb. Now you're just back peddling because you know you wrong.

:talktothehand:

I don't feel threatened, but if you want to whine some more, the bottle is almost ready for you. Is it the dirty diaper that's making cranky?

Warden
11-25-2011, 05:08 PM
You oughta see the shit Hamill says. Hell, he expressed his hope that one of our female posters be raped.

There's no doubt that ND made the violent threat first. Many on the Left are calling for armed revolution. Of course for the Leftwing that's code for rioting, looting, and raping with a few murders thrown in for good measure.

All Hudaman did was warn the knucklehead that he will defend himself.

.

.

Yeah, well shitbag said "scope calibrated" there is no other meaning for that.

That is pretty sad though if those kinds of statements are being made either way.

I guess I should dust off my rocket launcher then and get ready for battle, jesus...:disbelief:

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:08 PM
:lmao2: :lmao2:

I'll make sure I have the gates to the mansion locked and the scope calibrated. You are a joke.
How are your stupid guns going to help you when your nearest ATM machine stops working?

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 05:10 PM
How are your stupid guns going to help you when your nearest ATM machine stops working?

:lmao2: :lmao2:

I'm not too worried about that. Gonna shut down the banks are you? Too funny.

Big Dog
11-25-2011, 05:11 PM
Yeah, well shitbag said "scope calibrated" there is no other meaning for that.

That is pretty sad though if those kinds of statements are being made either way.

I guess I should dust off my rocket launcher then and get ready for battle, jesus...:disbelief:


LOL, the moderators, i.e. Bill Cosby mostly, and Cotton, do an excellent job in permitting free speech. They know these fights typically end on their own. They'll step in if it goes on for too long.


.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 05:12 PM
Yeah, well shitbag said "scope calibrated" there is no other meaning for that.

That is pretty sad though if those kinds of statements are being made either way.

I guess I should dust off my rocket launcher then and get ready for battle, jesus...:disbelief:

The only one that seems to be pissing all over himself is you.

:hi:

John Galt
11-25-2011, 05:13 PM
You are so seldom right, I had to acknowledge it here.

:lmao2: :lmao2:

Hmm....blind squirrel/nut scenario?


There were people who were victimized by unscrupulous real estate brokers, who were, btw, about a dime a dozen back in the heyday. But may people were looking for an excuse, any excuse, to be told it was okay to be handed a big pile of cash. Many of these people didn't WANT to know. They are friends and neighbors of mine. They aren't in a rush to give back the boat, or knock down the giant deck they put in, or the new bathroom, or new car. Funny how that works.
I remember you mentioning that. Even the refi agents were happy to give money away. They cited tax breaks as one excuse to take the wad of cash.

I guess any paper was moving back then.

Funny how we don't specifically hear about these cases. The OP made mention of a woman who was 2 weeks delinquent on a payment, and the bank was foreclosing...

I don't believe that for one second.

I could see if she had a terrible payment history, and was on her last chance to make good with the bank, but many of these sob stories sound ridiculous.

I'm betting that a good number of people simply lost their jobs unexpectedly. For those people, I feel bad. When the economy was destroyed by the Wall St. crooks, the ripple effect was devastating.

Couple that with the 'small govt.' wave in '10, and you have thousands of public sector employees that are out of work.

These folks deserve some sort of help, but that ship already sailed. I'd rather have seen the bailout go to them, but I've laid out that plan already.


They accepted whatever terms they were presented with, because it worked within their budget.

I wonder how many thousands of people were literally jobless overnight?

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:13 PM
YOU supported the bank bailout, so WTF are you squealing about.

:crazzy:

I was hoping for a Main Street bailout right after Wall Street's. Also, we found out about the subprime mortgage fraud after the bailouts.

Warden
11-25-2011, 05:19 PM
The only one that seems to be pissing all over himself is you.

:hi:

Not hardly, just had to point out how you resorted to violence with nondual, sure sign he was "getting to you".....:lmao2:

I know you have a HUGE ego to feed, so go ahead and have the "last word" shitbag because I'm done here........:hi:

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:19 PM
Were they forced to sign the paperwork?
Most were tricked into signing, it's called predatory lending. They trusted the banks, as most people do. Their ignorance doesn't give you a right to exploit them.

Big Dog
11-25-2011, 05:19 PM
I was hoping for a Main Street bailout right after Wall Street's. Also, we found out about the subprime mortgage fraud after the bailouts.

I'm not talking about ancient history, bud. You claimed you STILL supported the bank bailouts within the last two months here.

If you're STILL buying that hopey changey bullshit, you are a moron.



.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 05:20 PM
Hmm....blind squirrel/nut scenario?


I remember you mentioning that. Even the refi agents were happy to give money away. They cited tax breaks as one excuse to take the wad of cash.

I guess any paper was moving back then.

Funny how we don't specifically hear about these cases. The OP made mention of a woman who was 2 weeks delinquent on a payment, and the bank was foreclosing...

I don't believe that for one second.

I could see if she had a terrible payment history, and was on her last chance to make good with the bank, but many of these sob stories sound ridiculous.

I'm betting that a good number of people simply lost their jobs unexpectedly. For those people, I feel bad. When the economy was destroyed by the Wall St. crooks, the ripple effect was devastating.

Couple that with the 'small govt.' wave in '10, and you have thousands of public sector employees that are out of work.

These folks deserve some sort of help, but that ship already sailed. I'd rather have seen the bailout go to them, but I've laid out that plan already.


They accepted whatever terms they were presented with, because it worked within their budget.

I wonder how many thousands of people were literally jobless overnight?

Here's what I think.. If you are out of a job, you should get first priority for 'relief'. People who are losing their homes because they lost their jobs deserve support and compassion. Next up, those people who bought first home, might have been more subject to influences, and got in over their head. I'm not a lawyer, but I believe there is a principle in law that makes accommodations for a persons ability to understand a contract. Maybe tutonic can chime in.

The last category simply needs to lose their homes so we can end this years long housing price slide. I saw the story of a guy who was basically justifying his irresponsibility by claiming he was doing it for his family, and therefore it was somehow morally justified. Really? So, your have stopped making payments on your half million dollar house so the kids can still have the ski vacation in Vail? What a wonderful papa. The bank ended up taking a 200 K hit, and the guy told the story as if he was some kind of hero. He's not. He took out a loan at 125% of equity. The bank was stupid for offering it, he was stupid for accepting. the failure to take any kind of responsibility is, to me, very troubling, and I see that kind of militant attitude here, and the it's completely lost on me.

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:21 PM
WOW, personal threats of violence is allowed here? really?,

you are one piece of shit dude, I truly hope you get the chance to put your money where you mouth is. :talktothehand:

Talk about being paid to protest, or to anti protest, what a great example of that right here.
He will need his guns to go after the banksters, just watch.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 05:22 PM
Most were tricked into signing, it's called predatory lending. They trusted the banks, as most people do. Their ignorance doesn't give you a right to exploit them.

Nope, it doesn't, nor does it give them a pass from their personal responsibility. The banks should take a hit for those practices. And the people should have to give the house back or the money back.

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:22 PM
You are so seldom right, I had to acknowledge it here.

:lmao2: :lmao2:

There were people who were victimized by unscrupulous real estate brokers, who were, btw, about a dime a dozen back in the heyday. But may people were looking for an excuse, any excuse, to be told it was okay to be handed a big pile of cash. Many of these people didn't WANT to know. They are friends and neighbors of mine. They aren't in a rush to give back the boat, or knock down the giant deck they put in, or the new bathroom, or new car. Funny how that works.
Nothing to say about variable rates and how they are misused by banks?

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:24 PM
There's no doubt that ND made the violent threat first.
:crazzy: Show me.

Warden
11-25-2011, 05:24 PM
I was hoping for a Main Street bailout right after Wall Street's. Also, we found out about the subprime mortgage fraud after the bailouts.


LOL, really? :disbelief:

I'm not going to knock the idea, but it just isnt going to happen. while for the money spent so far, every person in the country could have gotten almost 20k each, crazy when you think of it like that.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 05:25 PM
Nothing to say about variable rates and how they are misused by banks?

Misused? It's right there in writing, idiot. It isn't in the fine print. You get an ARM, you know exactly what you're getting. Take some responsibility for your actions.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 05:26 PM
I was hoping for a Main Street bailout right after Wall Street's. Also, we found out about the subprime mortgage fraud after the bailouts.

:saywhat: :lmao2:

Are you aware of why the bailout was necessary?

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:34 PM
:lmao2: :lmao2:

I'm not too worried about that. Gonna shut down the banks are you? Too funny.
Look at Syria, Libya, Egypt, Yemen... who do you think is worried the most? The banks, no one else. And due to work force replacement by machines, unemployment is only going to get worse.

Not funny at all.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 05:36 PM
Look at Syria, Libya, Egypt, Yemen... who do you think is worried the most? The banks, no one else. And due to work force replacement by machines, unemployment is only going to get worse.

Not funny at all.

We are not Syria, Libya, Egypt or Yemen. The banks are not going to fail. If you want to riot, or you want to try and occupy someone's private priority, the police will throw your sorry ass in jail. What a great country we live in.

:thumbsup:

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:37 PM
I'm not talking about ancient history, bud. You claimed you STILL supported the bank bailouts within the last two months here.

If you're STILL buying that hopey changey bullshit, you are a moron.
Show me, liar.

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:40 PM
Nope, it doesn't, nor does it give them a pass from their personal responsibility. The banks should take a hit for those practices. And the people should have to give the house back or the money back.
Agreed, but before we do that, things need to be sorted out, and that's what banks are fighting tooth and nail. Sorting this whole debacle could take years. :D

Warden
11-25-2011, 05:42 PM
Look at Syria, Libya, Egypt, Yemen... who do you think is worried the most? The banks, no one else. And due to work force replacement by machines, unemployment is only going to get worse.

Not funny at all.

you forgot about these co called "free trade" agreements which is really managed trade and is actually destroying our National Sovereignty. We now have in place open borders with Canada, and Mexico for commerce, trucking companies can now travel freely insides the US unimpeded to any and all destinations for trucking.

I believe Hamill is a trucker, no? So am I, now dispatching. Labor jobs we weren't able to export, we can now import through the free trade deals. The first US/Mexican trucking permit was just given last month.

The North American Union was a 50 year overall plan, under Clinton, and its being brokered under the US chamber of commerce. Its in full swing, just part of the "globalist" vision.

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:42 PM
Misused? It's right there in writing, idiot. It isn't in the fine print. You get an ARM, you know exactly what you're getting. Take some responsibility for your actions.
Why were all those realtors sent to jail? How many people who own a mortgage are being sent to jail?

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:43 PM
We are not Syria, Libya, Egypt or Yemen. The banks are not going to fail.
It's all interconnected, like it or not. :dunno:

Gary
11-25-2011, 05:44 PM
Agreed, but before we do that, things need to be sorted out, and that's what banks are fighting tooth and nail. Sorting this whole debacle could take years. :D

Occupy this, Motherfuckers! Get your worthless asses out there and do it!

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 05:45 PM
It's all interconnected, like it or not. :dunno:

Some things are, some things aren't. I don't believe Yemen has an FDIC, do they?

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 05:45 PM
Why were all those realtors sent to jail? How many people who own a mortgage are being sent to jail?

What realtors? Jesus Christ, can you stick to one topic? A realtor is not a bank, dumbshit. And you don't use a realtor for a cash out refi. Reading your posts is like shoving needles into my brain, you are just SO FUCKING STUPID. God, it's painful to watch.

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:49 PM
Many in the G20 are talking about no longer using the dollar. Imagine what's going to happen to your bank when the Saudis say they no longer take dollars.

Warden
11-25-2011, 05:49 PM
Here's what I think.. If you are out of a job, you should get first priority for 'relief'. People who are losing their homes because they lost their jobs deserve support and compassion. Next up, those people who bought first home, might have been more subject to influences, and got in over their head. I'm not a lawyer, but I believe there is a principle in law that makes accommodations for a persons ability to understand a contract. Maybe tutonic can chime in.

The last category simply needs to lose their homes so we can end this years long housing price slide. I saw the story of a guy who was basically justifying his irresponsibility by claiming he was doing it for his family, and therefore it was somehow morally justified. Really? So, your have stopped making payments on your half million dollar house so the kids can still have the ski vacation in Vail? What a wonderful papa. The bank ended up taking a 200 K hit, and the guy told the story as if he was some kind of hero. He's not. He took out a loan at 125% of equity. The bank was stupid for offering it, he was stupid for accepting. the failure to take any kind of responsibility is, to me, very troubling, and I see that kind of militant attitude here, and the it's completely lost on me.

You're such a douche bag, and I'm probably going to regret agreeing with you but I agree with you here, but this example isn't the norm anymore. This was the predatory lending practices from back in 08 if I'm not mistaken?

today people are losing theirs homes from 30 years fixed loans from just losing their jobs from long term employment, not frivolous home loans like in your reply here.

But I agree, in this example, taking a loan on 125% of equity? Must be nice. WTF?

but this also goes back to the F&F Govt regulated lending practices which made banks make these loans, and then guaranteed them under then FDIC insurance so when these loans failed, which of course they would put the losses on the US tax payer.

Now, I know I fucked up something in there, so go ahead, pick it apart....lol

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:51 PM
What realtors? Jesus Christ, can you stick to one topic? A realtor is not a bank, dumbshit. And you don't use a realtor for a cash out refi. Reading your posts is like shoving needles into my brain, you are just SO FUCKING STUPID. God, it's painful to watch.
Realtors, mortgage bankers, Goldman Sachs... all convicted for crimes against home buyers. How many home buyers convicted for fraud? ZERO!

Warden
11-25-2011, 05:52 PM
Many in the G20 are talking about no longer using the dollar. Imagine what's going to happen to your bank when the Saudis say they no longer take dollars.

Well, dont you know by now?, that's when they are a "threat" to National Security and we bomb the piss out of them. Happened in Iraq, and Libya, the Middle East knows better then to say anything that stupid.

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:54 PM
Well, dont you know by now?, that's when they are a "threat" to National Security and we bomb the piss out of them. Happened in Iraq, and Libya, the Middle East knows better then to say anything that stupid.
Imagine the economy at $500 a barrel... imagine the riots.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 05:55 PM
You're such a douche bag, and I'm probably going to regret agreeing with you but I agree with you here, but this example isn't the norm anymore. This was the predatory lending practices from back in 08 if I'm not mistaken?

today people are losing theirs homes from 30 years fixed loans from just losing their jobs from long term employment, not frivolous home loans like in your reply here.

But I agree, in this example, taking a loan on 125% of equity? Must be nice. WTF?

but this also goes back to the F&F Govt regulated lending practices which made banks make these loans, and then guaranteed them under then FDIC insurance so when these loans failed, which of course they would put the losses on the US tax payer.

Now, I know I fucked up something in there, so go ahead, pick it apart....lol

Taking out loans for 125% of equity, or neg am loans, or 'pick a payment' loans were common practice from 2004-2006. To your point though (because you have one here), more conventional loans are being caught in the net because a) people have lost their jobs and b) the value of peoples homes has plummeted. I'll say this though, if you took out a 30 year fixed loan and put 20%, you are probably in pretty decent shape, I doubt too many of those failed. The subprime market was a bigger problem, and most subprime loans were a lot more than 80% LTV. Exotic subprime loans with outrageously high LTVs were the catalyst to this.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 05:56 PM
Realtors, mortgage bankers, Goldman Sachs... all convicted for crimes against home buyers. How many home buyers convicted for fraud? ZERO!

Do you have a point? Stupidity is not a crime. Defaulting on your loan is not a crime.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 05:57 PM
Many in the G20 are talking about no longer using the dollar. Imagine what's going to happen to your bank when the Saudis say they no longer take dollars.

Nothing.

nondual
11-25-2011, 05:58 PM
Do you have a point? Stupidity is not a crime. Defaulting on your loan is not a crime.
Of course I have a point, the criminals are in Wall Street, not Main Street!

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 06:00 PM
Of course I have a point, the criminals are in Wall Street, not Main Street!

Wow, and bread is made from wheat. Which has nothing to do with anything in this thread.

nondual
11-25-2011, 06:02 PM
Wow, and bread is made from wheat. Which has nothing to do with anything in this thread.
Then, why are you asking?

:crazzy:

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 06:03 PM
Then, why are you asking?

:crazzy:

You are like a two year old. I need a break. Alcohol is going to be involved. Maybe you'll make more sense after I've had about 14 cocktails.

John Galt
11-25-2011, 06:09 PM
Realtors, mortgage bankers, Goldman Sachs... all convicted for crimes against home buyers. How many home buyers convicted for fraud? ZERO!
The home buyers didn't break any laws.

But...they still have to vacate the premises.

If they couldn't pay their mortgage, then they probably couldn't pay their property taxes. In NY, that's as much as some people's mortgage payment every month. Either way, they were moving out.
What exactly is your point?

Are you saying that you think someone deserves a free dwelling?

Does someone deserve to stop paying rent, because the banks devalued his 401k?

And....what's wrong with an ARM? Banks offer a variety of products, just as car companies offer a variety of vehicles.

The 'crime', is that lenders were pushing products on people, that didn't suit anyone but Wall St's purpose.

ARM's are typically a great product for speculation...whether you're into sweat equity, or just buying/flipping.

They're even better, when interest rates are trending down. Either way, it's accepted at signing, that this is a short term plan, with a DEMAND for capital after a few years.

There should be no surprises when you're putting your name and reputation on the line.


You make is sound like everyone was deceived. I can't really buy that theory.

Where the hell were their lawyers to advise about the terms? You don't think these people had ANY advocates?

Do you believe that speculators who got caught with their collective pants down, also deserve to keep their properties?

nondual
11-25-2011, 06:22 PM
The home buyers didn't break any laws.

But...they still have to vacate the premises.

If they couldn't pay their mortgage, then they probably couldn't pay their property taxes. In NY, that's as much as some people's mortgage payment every month. Either way, they were moving out.
What exactly is your point?

Are you saying that you think someone deserves a free dwelling?

Does someone deserve to stop paying rent, because the banks devalued his 401k?

And....what's wrong with an ARM? Banks offer a variety of products, just as car companies offer a variety of vehicles.

The 'crime', is that lenders were pushing products on people, that didn't suit anyone but Wall St's purpose.

ARM's are typically a great product for speculation...whether you're into sweat equity, or just buying/flipping.

They're even better, when interest rates are trending down. Either way, it's accepted at signing, that this is a short term plan, with a DEMAND for capital after a few years.

There should be no surprises when you're putting your name and reputation on the line.


You make is sound like everyone was deceived. I can't really buy that theory.

Where the hell were their lawyers to advise about the terms? You don't think these people had ANY advocates?

Do you believe that speculators who got caught with their collective pants down, also deserve to keep their properties?
Put some bankers in jail or in the street, then we can talk about crime and punishment.

John Galt
11-25-2011, 06:36 PM
Put some bankers in jail or in the street, then we can talk about crime and punishment.
Did I say something about crime and punishment?

Did your kid find your password tonight?

nondual
11-25-2011, 06:44 PM
Did I say something about crime and punishment?
Yes, you did.

nondual
11-25-2011, 08:34 PM
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee485/cyberdyno2/309611_10150378213325942_175868780941_8785870_4027 97095_n.jpg

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 08:37 PM
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee485/cyberdyno2/309611_10150378213325942_175868780941_8785870_4027 97095_n.jpg

What bad law? That you have to repay money you borrow?

:lmao2: :lmao2:

Warden
11-25-2011, 08:46 PM
How about financing 125% equity loans? or the like.?

:D

nondual
11-25-2011, 08:47 PM
What bad law? That you have to repay money you borrow?

:lmao2: :lmao2:
No tonto, the laws that lead to banks making millions betting against their own customers, causing an economic crisis, then getting rewarded while there isn't even a foreclosure moratorium. People are pissed, and rightly so. When the system doesn't work, you work from the outside.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 09:04 PM
No tonto, the laws that lead to banks making millions betting against their own customers, causing an economic crisis, then getting rewarded while there isn't even a foreclosure moratorium. People are pissed, and rightly so. When the system doesn't work, you work from the outside.

And how are YOU going to disobey that law?

:hi: :hi:

Would you like a dunce cap to wear with that court jester outfit?

John Galt
11-25-2011, 09:30 PM
Yes, you did.


Can you point that out for me?

Thus far, I've refused to grant you idiot status.

Do you like it when others call you names?

Or does turkey make you a moron?

ksec
11-25-2011, 09:39 PM
People got bamboozled into voodoo loans that corrupted loan companies misled them with/ Mental midgets ignore corruption because they havent been affected by it ...yet.

nondual
11-25-2011, 09:48 PM
And how are YOU going to disobey that law?

:hi: :hi:

Would you like a dunce cap to wear with that court jester outfit?
What law?

ksec
11-25-2011, 09:51 PM
What law?

Actually Clinton and the boys dismantled most of the laws that these bastards broke. Deregulation made crime legal..but they didnt do away with fraud. Fraud was committed repeatedly.

Hudaman
11-25-2011, 11:33 PM
What law?

Ah, whatever 'bad law' you think you are going to disobey? Your post, not mine.

cottonbroker1
11-25-2011, 11:46 PM
People got bamboozled into voodoo loans that corrupted loan companies misled them with/ Mental midgets ignore corruption because they havent been affected by it ...yet.That seems to be among the most popular excuses for people who borrowed money and then welched on thier debt. For a person to borrow money they cant repay pay or wont repay is certainly not the fault of the lender.

EldonG
11-26-2011, 05:03 AM
The article's opening paragraph stated 15 OWS protesters "occupied" a vacant foreclosed house. From that statement, it seems as though none of those occupying the house were the home owners, nor were they invited on the property by the homeowners.

Later on, the article talks about occupying the home of family's facing eviction, which is a far different matter than the situation presented in the opening paragraph.

As stated previously, I am hardly going to defend big banks and investment firms, but I truly do believe this tactic of wanton disobeying of the law is only going to hurt the movement, in the long run.
This. ^^

Simply occupying a foreclosed home wasn't what I feel has meaning...but stopping the foreclosure that dump families in the streets, just because a fat and self-important banker can? Different story.

EldonG
11-26-2011, 05:04 AM
Being invited onto private property is not the same.

And, the banks didn't renegotiate the loan. They put off the eviction for a month or so.

Do these occupations draw attention to the issue? Yes.

When someone is about to be evicted, it helps to get an individual's story in the press.

When 40 people choose to vandalize an empty house to spread a 'screw the banks' message, that's very different.
Agreed.

Actually, one bank did, from my understanding.

EldonG
11-26-2011, 05:07 AM
I remember talking with newbies to the mortgage industry during the boom. The lenders were hiring anyone who walked through the door, as they simply couldn't write mortgages fast enough to satisfy Wall St's demand.

This pencil pusher was trying to give me the rap about getting an ARM, and using the savings to invest in the market.

Then, when the rate adjusted, I'd have truckloads of money to apply toward principal, and refinance.

Anyone who fell for bullshit sales pitches like this, probably deserves to be homeless.

Are you saying that the people who 'fell' for the bogus terms of their contracts, have no liability in their own failure?

Were they forced to sign the paperwork?


Just because a person may be guilty of theft, doesn't mean they're responsible for murder, if someone commits suicide as a result of poor decisions.

Likewise, you cannot blame the banking system for every aspect of the foreclosure debacle.

Someone had to agree to really shitty terms, and now they're unhappy?
The kids don't.

John Galt
11-26-2011, 06:36 AM
The kids don't.
Kids don't deserve to suffer the mistakes many parents make.

Alcohol, gambling, violence....they're all worse than bad borrowing decisions.

Because Nondual had too much turkey and froze his brain, I'll ask you the same question he, and others in this thread choose to ignore:

Do you believe anyone 'deserves' free housing?

Does anyone who suffered at the hands of the banks/investors deserve to stop paying rent?

This isn't a matter of 'who owns the paper?'.

It's a matter of not paying a loan, and looking for people to tell you that you can still reside in a dwelling.

Do speculators who got caught holding the bag, deserve to keep the properties they no longer pay toward?

If not....what's the difference?

nondual
11-26-2011, 08:00 AM
Kids don't deserve to suffer the mistakes many parents make.

Alcohol, gambling, violence....they're all worse than bad borrowing decisions.

Because Nondual had too much turkey and froze his brain, I'll ask you the same question he, and others in this thread choose to ignore:

Do you believe anyone 'deserves' free housing?

Does anyone who suffered at the hands of the banks/investors deserve to stop paying rent?

This isn't a matter of 'who owns the paper?'.

It's a matter of not paying a loan, and looking for people to tell you that you can still reside in a dwelling.

Do speculators who got caught holding the bag, deserve to keep the properties they no longer pay toward?

If not....what's the difference?
I believe in replacing this monetary system for a resource based system. So, yes, housing should be free, just as many other things. But you already knew that. :dunno:

John Galt
11-26-2011, 09:10 AM
I believe in replacing this monetary system for a resource based system. So, yes, housing should be free, just as many other things. But you already knew that. :dunno:
This thread isn't about fantasies.

It's about OWS....more specifically, an offshoot of same, that doesn't have anything to do with OWS, trespassing, and vandalizing private property.

If you want to discuss the reasons you feel some in this society deserve a free dwelling, you are welcome to make you case.

Your fantasy holds the same merit that Libertarianism holds.....zilch.

mrmeangenes
11-26-2011, 09:23 AM
Let me add a further bit of "reason": When a home is foreclosed, the bank/mtge. company puts it up for sale; and-once in a while (tougher these days) realizes enough from the sale to pay off the original mortgage -and (rarer still) put a few bucks in the former owner's pockets.

If the property is "occupied" - no matter no "noble" the intent - it sure as hell ain't gonna sell ! (Can you say "deficiency judgment" ? No ? Never heard of it ?? Perhaps you were (Ahem !) "Pre- Occupied" ???)

nondual
11-26-2011, 09:23 AM
This thread isn't about fantasies.

It's about OWS....more specifically, an offshoot of same, that doesn't have anything to do with OWS, trespassing, and vandalizing private property.

If you want to discuss the reasons you feel some in this society deserve a free dwelling, you are welcome to make you case.

Your fantasy holds the same merit that Libertarianism holds.....zilch.
My fantasy holds more merits than your obsolete and now failing capitalism. :D

John Galt
11-26-2011, 10:17 AM
My fantasy holds more merits than your obsolete and now failing capitalism. :D
Perhaps, but this isn't the thread to discuss it.

So far, you've avoided every question put forth to you.

If you have nothing to say about the OP, that's fine.

Hudaman
11-26-2011, 10:26 AM
Reality check here. There are lots of classes of homeowners who took it in the shorts. They did so because the value of everyone's homes took a plunge. That plunge was largely due to unsustainable prices resulting from speculation by investors, and by a very high default rate among subprime loans. Here are the classes:

Anyone who bought their homes in the mid to late nineties or before, and refinanced without taking any money out of their equity. This class includes me. If you did this, your payment became less than what it was previously, there is absolutely no chance you are underwater right now, and no one at the banks 'screwed' you. But, you lost a ton of equity due to the irresponsibility of others. This class lost big, IMHO.

Anyone who bought their homes prior to 2000, and used them like an ATM. Half of the subprime loans issued in 2004-2007 were cash out refis. People were told they could have CASH, CASH, CASH!!!! And they took it and spent it. In many cases, they were paying down credit cards from their previous excesses, and/or buying lots of stuff. I watched many of my neighbors do this. It was common practice. People would borrow up to 125% of equity with exotic loans, neg am loans, interest only loans, 'pick a payment' loans. This class is underwater, and very likely cannot make their mortgage payment, which is now way higher than it was previously. Many of them are walking away from their homes, abandoning them completely. This is a group that many people feel sorry for. I am not among them. I think they won HUGE. They got to keep all that money, and they essentially were handed tha money for free. Even after foreclosure and sale, the banks are taking a bath on these loans. Actually, it's not the banks, but the investors, and the rest of us. OWS of course will tell you these people are being badly mistreated by the evil banks. Too funny. WINNER.

People who were led to believe they could afford to buy a home, but ended up in over their head. This group truly was preyed upon by unscrupulous mortgage brokers to feed the voracious appetite for new loans. These people should be receiving help, and those who steered them into those loans should be held accountable. It is not anywhere near a majority of those who are facing foreclosure. LOSER

Investors who were simply flipping houses. Enough said, tough shit. Pay your damn mortgage(s) WINNER

Those who have lost their jobs. Another group that needs help, for obvious reasons. LOSER/

That's the reality here. It is a very small minority that truly got screwed by the banks. Alot of people willingly took advantage of the foolishness of the banks, who had a ready supply of purchasers for those loans. I feel absolutely no sympathy for that group.

Here is one guys story. It made me sick. He's just a an opportunist who found an excuse for his irresponsible behavior. Cost to the economy? 200K. I'd say he hit the jackpot. All you OWS guys are putting the white hat on those guys. I'm sure he's thankful for the support.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/business/how-a-financial-pro-lost-his-house.html?pagewanted=all

nondual
11-26-2011, 10:44 AM
Reality check here. There are lots of classes of homeowners who took it in the shorts. They did so because the value of everyone's homes took a plunge. That plunge was largely due to unsustainable prices resulting from speculation by investors, and by a very high default rate among subprime loans. Here are the classes:

Anyone who bought their homes in the mid to late nineties or before, and refinanced without taking any money out of their equity. This class includes me. If you did this, your payment became less than what it was previously, there is absolutely no chance you are underwater right now, and no one at the banks 'screwed' you. But, you lost a ton of equity due to the irresponsibility of others. This class lost big, IMHO.

Anyone who bought their homes prior to 2000, and used them like an ATM. Half of the subprime loans issued in 2004-2007 were cash out refis. People were told they could have CASH, CASH, CASH!!!! And they took it and spent it. In many cases, they were paying down credit cards from their previous excesses, and/or buying lots of stuff. I watched many of my neighbors do this. It was common practice. People would borrow up to 125% of equity with exotic loans, neg am loans, interest only loans, 'pick a payment' loans. This class is underwater, and very likely cannot make their mortgage payment, which is now way higher than it was previously. Many of them are walking away from their homes, abandoning them completely. This is a group that many people feel sorry for. I am not among them. I think they won HUGE. They got to keep all that money, and they essentially were handed tha money for free. Even after foreclosure and sale, the banks are taking a bath on these loans. Actually, it's not the banks, but the investors, and the rest of us. OWS of course will tell you these people are being badly mistreated by the evil banks. Too funny. WINNER.

People who were led to believe they could afford to buy a home, but ended up in over their head. This group truly was preyed upon by unscrupulous mortgage brokers to feed the voracious appetite for new loans. These people should be receiving help, and those who steered them into those loans should be held accountable. It is not anywhere near a majority of those who are facing foreclosure. LOSER

Investors who were simply flipping houses. Enough said, tough shit. Pay your damn mortgage(s) WINNER

Those who have lost their jobs. Another group that needs help, for obvious reasons. LOSER/

That's the reality here. It is a very small minority that truly got screwed by the banks. Alot of people willingly took advantage of the foolishness of the banks, who had a ready supply of purchasers for those loans. I feel absolutely no sympathy for that group.

Here is one guys story. It made me sick. He's just a an opportunist who found an excuse for his irresponsible behavior. Cost to the economy? 200K. I'd say he hit the jackpot. All you OWS guys are putting the white hat on those guys. I'm sure he's thankful for the support.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/business/how-a-financial-pro-lost-his-house.html?pagewanted=all
WHY did mortgage payments, in a matter of months, went from 1,200@month, to 2,000@month, for so many? :dunno:

Hudaman
11-26-2011, 10:49 AM
WHY did mortgage payments, in a matter of months, went from 1,200@month, to 2,000@month, for so many? :dunno:

Because that's the kind of loan they willingly signed up for. It's their fault, not the banks fault. In some cases, yes, they were sold a bill of goods, but in most instances, it was a case of instant gratification gone bad. If you truly don't understand this, then there isn't much hope you'll ever get a grasp on why we arrived at where we are. Just keep repeating your worn out slogans, that'll solve the problem.

My loan payment didn't go up. Get a clue.

EldonG
11-26-2011, 10:52 AM
Kids don't deserve to suffer the mistakes many parents make.

Alcohol, gambling, violence....they're all worse than bad borrowing decisions.

Because Nondual had too much turkey and froze his brain, I'll ask you the same question he, and others in this thread choose to ignore:

Do you believe anyone 'deserves' free housing?

Does anyone who suffered at the hands of the banks/investors deserve to stop paying rent?

This isn't a matter of 'who owns the paper?'.

It's a matter of not paying a loan, and looking for people to tell you that you can still reside in a dwelling.

Do speculators who got caught holding the bag, deserve to keep the properties they no longer pay toward?

If not....what's the difference?
That statement wasn't intended to state disagreement with the basic principle, but rather to evoke a little empathy. The banks can easily afford to allow a bit of flexibility where kids come into the picture, and I, for one, have no qualms in judging them harshly when they don't.

Foreclosing on a man who got himself in too deep is one thing. Foreclosing on a family with kids the first time they have trouble making the payment is something else, entirely, and there are all sorts of grays in-between.

Does that family have the 'right' to stay in that house?

No.

Do banks have the 'right' to taxpayer money to bail them out?

Hell no.

If they take that money, take home big profits, and then evict that family, I say throw them over the figurative cliff. Fuck that noise.

EldonG
11-26-2011, 10:53 AM
Because that's the kind of loan they willingly signed up for. It's their fault, not the banks fault. In some cases, yes, they were sold a bill of goods, but in most instances, it was a case of instant gratification gone bad. If you truly don't understand this, then there isn't much hope you'll ever get a grasp on why we arrived at where we are. Just keep repeating your worn out slogans, that'll solve the problem.

My loan payment didn't go up. Get a clue.
Yeah, and it's the guy who plays the shell game's fault for betting, but the guy running it is still a con man.

nondual
11-26-2011, 10:59 AM
Perhaps, but this isn't the thread to discuss it.

So far, you've avoided every question put forth to you.

If you have nothing to say about the OP, that's fine.
I will tell you what Glenn Greenwald is telling us, that this is a two tiered system where the law is used to destroy equality and protect the powerful. And that that's what OWS is all about, about challenging a failed judicial system. This isn't about stealing property, as some shallow minded people seem to believe, this is about making a statement to the crooks running the system, a statement that says - we don't trust you, get the fuck out of government! - Get it?

nondual
11-26-2011, 11:02 AM
Because that's the kind of loan they willingly signed up for. It's their fault, not the banks fault. In some cases, yes, they were sold a bill of goods, but in most instances, it was a case of instant gratification gone bad. If you truly don't understand this, then there isn't much hope you'll ever get a grasp on why we arrived at where we are. Just keep repeating your worn out slogans, that'll solve the problem.

My loan payment didn't go up. Get a clue.
Most people, me included, don't even read the fine print, they just trust banks. :dunno: They lied to their customers, now is payback time.

Hudaman
11-26-2011, 11:05 AM
Yeah, and it's the guy who plays the shell game's fault for betting, but the guy running it is still a con man.

I agree, and I did mention that there is a class of people out there that is deserving of help, and there are people that should go to jail. But the reality is, the front line guys, the real con men? They are gone, vanished like a fart in the wind. I knew a couple. I remember one guy had his half million dollar home because he was screwing people. He had no experience, he had been a car salesman. He lost his house. Payback is a bitch. There was no federal regulation on mortgage brokers, and they were able to steer people into loans with ZERO skin in the game. They were the ones that did most of the screwing. The banks looked the other way.

nondual
11-26-2011, 11:06 AM
Because that's the kind of loan they willingly signed up for. It's their fault, not the banks fault. In some cases, yes, they were sold a bill of goods, but in most instances, it was a case of instant gratification gone bad. If you truly don't understand this, then there isn't much hope you'll ever get a grasp on why we arrived at where we are. Just keep repeating your worn out slogans, that'll solve the problem.

My loan payment didn't go up. Get a clue.
There are millions of families, who weren't playing any shell games, nor using their homes as ATM machines. They just blindly trusted the banks.

Hudaman
11-26-2011, 11:09 AM
Most people, me included, don't even read the fine print, they just trust banks. :dunno: They lied to their customers, now is payback time.

Get real, dual. An ARM is an ADJUSTABLE RATE MORTGAGE. Fine print? It's in the name of the fucking loan for God's sake. There is nothing deceptive about an ARM loan. Stop whining and pay your bills. Man up.

Hudaman
11-26-2011, 11:09 AM
There are millions of families, who weren't playing any shell games, nor using their homes as ATM machines. They just blindly trusted the banks.

Bullshit.

John Galt
11-26-2011, 11:11 AM
Most people, me included, don't even read the fine print, they just trust banks. :dunno: They lied to their customers, now is payback time.
Yes...payback time for you.

Maybe next time, you'll pay attention to the 'terms of contract.'

If this stuff is too confusing for you to understand, then you should hire outside counsel next time.

Whining about monthly payments going up....on schedule no less... illustrates your inability to understand the basics of lending.

Now, why is that anyone's problem but your own?

It isn't hidden in the fine print.

There is no fine print, if you know how to read.

nondual
11-26-2011, 11:57 AM
Yes...payback time for you.

Maybe next time, you'll pay attention to the 'terms of contract.'

If this stuff is too confusing for you to understand, then you should hire outside counsel next time.

Whining about monthly payments going up....on schedule no less... illustrates your inability to understand the basics of lending.

Now, why is that anyone's problem but your own?

It isn't hidden in the fine print.

There is no fine print, if you know how to read.
I don't care about the basics of lending, never cared about money either, that's my nature. Money and private property were always a hard concepts for me to understand. :dunno: But I'm an expert at Quantum Mechanics. :)

Hudaman
11-26-2011, 12:15 PM
I don't care about the basics of lending, never cared about money either, that's my nature. Money and private property were always a hard concepts for me to understand. :dunno: But I'm an expert at Quantum Mechanics. :)

Well, then I would suggest you hire a lawyer. Because the rest of us aren't giving you a free house because you didn't understand the terms of the contract that you signed. It's beginning to sound like you ARE exactly what the right claims OWS is. Looking for a handout, blaming all your problems on corporations and big banks, and taking absolutely no accountability for anything you do.

Mason66
11-26-2011, 12:18 PM
Yes...payback time for you.

Maybe next time, you'll pay attention to the 'terms of contract.'

If this stuff is too confusing for you to understand, then you should hire outside counsel next time.

Whining about monthly payments going up....on schedule no less... illustrates your inability to understand the basics of lending.

Now, why is that anyone's problem but your own?

It isn't hidden in the fine print.

There is no fine print, if you know how to read.

I think people like Nondual here see an opportunity to get out of a loan they knowingly got into, with this movement. That is why he is fighting so hard for this movement.

He admits to not reading the documents he signed. I hope he has never bought a car or has even one credit card because those contracts also have fine print, especially credit card contracts. I wonder if he has a cell phone plan. Small print galore.

Hey Nondual, if you never cared about money, why are you complaining so much that your payment went up. Just pay it. It is only money.

nondual
11-26-2011, 01:16 PM
Well, then I would suggest you hire a lawyer. Because the rest of us aren't giving you a free house because you didn't understand the terms of the contract that you signed. It's beginning to sound like you ARE exactly what the right claims OWS is. Looking for a handout, blaming all your problems on corporations and big banks, and taking absolutely no accountability for anything you do.
Don't need a free house. I'm fighting for America and its citizens. Understand that?

nondual
11-26-2011, 01:17 PM
I think people like Nondual here see an opportunity to get out of a loan they knowingly got into, with this movement. That is why he is fighting so hard for this movement.

He admits to not reading the documents he signed. I hope he has never bought a car or has even one credit card because those contracts also have fine print, especially credit card contracts. I wonder if he has a cell phone plan. Small print galore.

Hey Nondual, if you never cared about money, why are you complaining so much that your payment went up. Just pay it. It is only money.
Never had a mortgage to pay. :taunt:

Mason66
11-26-2011, 02:51 PM
Never had a mortgage to pay. :taunt:

If you never had a mortgage tro pay then you lied.