The Saudi Legal System

[Moby]

No one seems to address the issue that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi, that OBL is Saudi, that the Saudi's have very close ties with the Bush family and that they refused to take OBL when The Sudan offered him.

Basically they are the country most responsible for the 9/11 attacks and they're best buddies with the Bush family.

Here is another shining example of our wonderful allies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7098480.stm

Saudi gang rape sentence 'unjust'

Saudi women are subject to strict sex segregation laws
A lawyer for a gang-rape victim in Saudi Arabia who was sentenced to 200 lashes and six-months in jail says the punishment contravenes Islamic law.
The woman was initially punished for violating laws on segregation of the sexes - she was in an unrelated man's car at the time of the attack.

When she appealed, judges doubled her sentence, saying she had been trying to use the media to influence them.

Her lawyer has been suspended from the case and faces a disciplinary session.

Abdel Rahman al-Lahem told the BBC Arabic Service that the sentence was in violation of Islamic law:

"My client is the victim of this abhorrent crime. I believe her sentence contravenes the Islamic Sharia law and violates the pertinent international conventions," he said.

"The judicial bodies should have dealt with this girl as the victim rather than the culprit."

The lawyer also said that his client his will appeal against the decision to increase her punishment.


Yes. You read that right. 200 lashes for being gang raped.

[moonman]

The Saudi/Bush ties are kinda old news, no? Scandal will never hurt Bush so long as wimps like Gore & Kerry just roll over for him. I still believe Kerry took Ohio in '04. I mean how can you have more votes for Bush than there were registered voters?

I caught that poor gal's story while channel surfing. I shook my head then and I'm shakin' my head now.

Wonder what Oscar de la Hoya would get in Saudi-land if he were caught in fish net and high heels over there?

[Moby]

Wonder what Oscar de la Hoya would get in Saudi-land if he were caught in fish net and high heels over there?
What about Republican Presidential hopeful Giuliani for dressing in drag? :) There's something to be proud of.

[moonman]

What about Republican Presidential hopeful Giuliani for dressing in drag? :) There's something to be proud of.

'Splains why he's leading in the Republican polls. Gender benders seem to have found a home there.

[Islam Rocks!]

No one seems to address the issue that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi, that OBL is Saudi, that the Saudi's have very close ties with the Bush family and that they refused to take OBL when The Sudan offered him.

Basically they are the country most responsible for the 9/11 attacks and they're best buddies with the Bush family.

Here is another shining example of our wonderful allies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7098480.stm


Yes. You read that right. 200 lashes for being gang raped.You are right. She should have only recieved 100 lashes as the law prescribes.

She must have been a slut to be in an unrelated mans car at night.

She knew the law, and violated it. Now she has to pay the price for her wanton behavior.

[Smurf-Herder]

You are right. She should have only recieved 100 lashes as the law prescribes.

She must have been a slut to be in an unrelated mans car at night.

She knew the law, and violated it. Now she has to pay the price for her wanton behavior.


Why does your faith in general treat women so badly; while in some moslem countries they are leaders?

[Smurf-Herder]

The Saudi/Bush ties are kinda old news, no? Scandal will never hurt Bush so long as wimps like Gore & Kerry just roll over for him. I still believe Kerry took Ohio in '04. I mean how can you have more votes for Bush than there were registered voters?

I caught that poor gal's story while channel surfing. I shook my head then and I'm shakin' my head now.

Wonder what Oscar de la Hoya would get in Saudi-land if he were caught in fish net and high heels over there?

There are many more stories like hers, throughout the moslem world. Honor killings, stoning, hanging, etc.

There are two things at work here. The long-term civil rights of people in moslem countries is part of the overall worldwide civil rights issue. The moslems who are exreme enough to bomb and kill are the immediate threat.

......... in terms of why we treat countries like SA as an ally.

[Islam Rocks!]

Why does your faith in general treat women so badly; while in some moslem countries they are leaders?
SH did you know that in Brazil, a Catholic country, they sill allow honor killings? If your wife/girlfriend dishonors you. You can murder her, and if not apprehended within 24 hours. The man goes free with no prosecution!

I just stated that in to show that whether its a Christian or a Muslim country. Both tradition and culture are thrown into the societys laws and moral codes.

Islam has over 1.1 billion adherents in a couple of dozen countrys all over the world. So uniformity is't going to happen.

I disagree with you statement about women in general being treated badly in Islamic countrys.

In fact, women are treated with more respect and dignity in an Islamic country than in Europe or America.

[Cat slave]

All this is typical of the patriarchal foundations of organized religion.

[Cat slave]

SH did you know that in Brazil, a Catholic country, they sill allow honor killings? If your wife/girlfriend dishonors you. You can murder her, and if not apprehended within 24 hours. The man goes free with no prosecution!

I just stated that in to show that whether its a Christian or a Muslim country. Both tradition and culture are thrown into the societys laws and moral codes.

Islam has over 1.1 billion adherents in a couple of dozen countrys all over the world. So uniformity is't going to happen.

I disagree with you statement about women in general being treated badly in Islamic countrys.

In fact, women are treated with more respect and dignity in an Islamic country than in Europe or America.

Oh good grief! Thats some respect youve got going on there...and dignity?
Yeah right.:talktothehand:

[Islam Rocks!]

All this is typical of the patriarchal foundations of organized religion.

So what?

Men were put on the earth to rule and women to obey their husbands.

Just the natural order of the world.

[Cat slave]

If you consider brute strength the criteria for "rule" I guess that would be right.
Men are really afraid of women. Thats why they try to keep them down with
physical or emotional bondage.

[Cat slave]

Im gonna go pop some popcorn and catch up on the events of the day.
Bah bye.

[Islam Rocks!]

If you consider brute strength the criteria for "rule" I guess that would be right.
Men are really afraid of women. Thats why they try to keep them down with
physical or emotional bondage.I didn't say anything about physical force being used or emotional slavery.

Just commented on the natural order of the world. This is true of humans and animals.

Men don't fear women; just as women shouldn't fear men.

[Moby]

It wasn't that long ago in America when human rights were only for white men. Then white people and finally all people. South Africa changed less then a generation ago.

We look at it as horror now, and it is. I'm just wondering how we justified our own civil rights issues not very long ago.

[Smurf-Herder]

SH did you know that in Brazil, a Catholic country, they sill allow honor killings? If your wife/girlfriend dishonors you. You can murder her, and if not apprehended within 24 hours. The man goes free with no prosecution!

I just stated that in to show that whether its a Christian or a Muslim country. Both tradition and culture are thrown into the societys laws and moral codes.

Islam has over 1.1 billion adherents in a couple of dozen countrys all over the world. So uniformity is't going to happen.

I disagree with you statement about women in general being treated badly in Islamic countrys.

In fact, women are treated with more respect and dignity in an Islamic country than in Europe or America.

In most cases, Islamic law treats women as being worth half a man. They don't treat them with more respect and dignity, from what I've seen. More like possessions and second class citizens. We don't have TV talk shows decribing how to beat your wife in the West.

I never heard that about Brazil, btw.

[Smurf-Herder]

So what?

Men were put on the earth to rule and women to obey.

Just the natural order of the world.

@#*&%$!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :noway:

That is so medeaval!

[Islam Rocks!]

In most cases, Islamic law treats women as being worth half a man. They don't treat them with more respect and dignity, from what I've seen. More like possessions and second class citizens. We don't have TV talk shows decribing how to beat your wife in the West.

I never heard that about Brazil, btw.Believe the anti-Islamic media if you want, but it's not the truth.

Women in Islam are the religious equal to men and are not second class citizens.

Women have rights in divorce, child custudy, can own and run their own business, have a seperate bank account from their husbands, can own the home she lives in, etc.

The American media is packed full of lies and half-truths about Islam.

btw, more than one Islamic country has had a Women President.

America...............Zero!

[Smurf-Herder]

Believe the anti-Islamic media if you want, but it's not the truth.

Women in Islam are the religious equal to men and are not second class citizens.

Women have rights in divorce, child custudy, can own and run their own business, have a seperate bank account from their husbands, can own the home she lives in, etc.

The American media is packed full of lies and half-truths about Islam.

btw, more than one Islamic country has had a Women President.

America...............Zero!

I don't buy it.

Way too much info out there on how women are treated in the moslem world. Not the same in every country; but it's enough to show a real problem.

Here's examples from Iran - a country run by Islamic beliefs.

Official Laws Against Women in Iran

© Compiled and distributed by WFAFI - WOMEN'S FORUM AGAINST FUNDUMENTALISM IN IRAN - 2005, for more information please contact info@wfafi.org

Limitations on the lives of women are legalized in laws prohibiting women from the presidency, leadership, judgeship and certain educational fields, as well as by inheritance laws. Firmly rooted in the principle of vali-e-faqih, Iran’s constitution controls both the public and private lives and role of women.
The concept of male surrogate and guardianship of females is one of the main pillars of Islamic Fundamentalism in Iran. Iranian women are not free to choose or control various aspects of their lives. Evidence of such state-sponsor of violence against women is seen in Iran’s constitution.

Article 18 of passport law, married women requires their husband's permission to apply for a passport.

Article 21 of Iran’s Constitution indicates: "The government must ensure the rights of women in all respects, in conformity with Islamic criteria..." This leaves it up to the clergymen to interpret the laws
pertaining to women.

Article 83 of the Penal Code, called the Law of Hodoud, stipulates that the penalty for fornication is flogging, i.e. 100 strokes of the lash, for unmarried male and female offenders.

Article 102 of Iran’s Constitution indicates: "Women who appear on streets and in public without the prescribed ‘Islamic Hejab’ will be condemned to 74 strokes of the lash.”

Article 115 of Iran’s Constitution states the condition for the presidential candidates the law states that:
“The President must come from among the religious and political statesmen (rejal)." The word rejal literally means men of high achievement.

Article 162 of Iran’s Constitution states the condition for the attorney general. "The head of justice department and attorney general must be ‘mojtahed’ [a religious man who is able to issue decree],
honest, and knowledgeable in legal subject matters."

Article 167 of Iran’s Constitution explains: "The Judge is bound to attempt to rule on each case, on the basis of the codified law. In case of the absence of any such law, he has to deliver his judgment on the basis of official Islamic sources and authentic fatwa.”

Article 209 of Iran’s Constitution states that woman's life is valued only half as much as a man's life. A convicted man who has intentionally slain a woman is subject to execution only after the payment of "Deyeh" by the family of the victim. "Deyeh" is defined as a sum of money that the victim's family has to pay to the assailant's family for the physical damages, dismemberment, or death of the assailant.

Article 300 of the Penal code states that the "Deyeh" of a Muslim woman is half of the "Deyeh" of a Muslim man. By law the life of a woman has half the value of a man in Islamic criminal law in Iran. In 1998, Iran’s Parliament overwhelmingly rejected the bill on same inheritance rights for man and
women. They said the proposal was contrary to Islamic law, which stipulates that a woman’s share may only be one half that of a man’s.

Iran’s Parliament adopted a law, in April of 1998, to fully segregate the health care system for women and girls. This law has seriously compromised women’s health because there are not enough trained female physicians and health care professionals to meet the needs of all the women and girls in Iran. The same law also points to another new law of prohibiting the discussion of women’s issues or rights outside the interpretation of Shari’a (Islamic law). Women’s rights can only be discussed by religious male figures in Iran.

Family courts do not provide women any protection from abusive husbands. The plight of the Iranian women is depicted in the story of a woman saying:

"I was married at the age of 12, and I had my first child when I was 13. My husband was unemployed and we fought all the time. We never applied for a divorce because I was afraid of losing my child. Finally one night, he poured a bucket of acid over my body and I was completely burned. When I rushed to the sink to flush my face and body. I realized that he had shut off the main water supply. I was taken to the hospital. My operation was held up pending advance money for the surgery, and permission from my husband to operate on my face. My mother sold all of her valuables and provided the money. My husband said he would only permit my operation if I consented to not seeing my children for the rest of my life. Finally, with hospital's pressure on the family court they allowed me to receive the operation on my face and body. "

Article 105 of the Civil Code "In the relationship between a man and a woman, the man is responsible as head of the family." The Council of Guardians, has decreed, "A woman cannot leave her home without her husband's permission, even to attend her father's funeral".

Article 1117 of the Civil Code states that the husband may ban his wife from any technical profession that conflicts with family life or her character.

Article 1133 of the Civil Code states: A man can divorce his wife whenever he so chooses and does not have to give her advance notice.

Article 102 of the Penal code, states that married offenders (adulterers) are liable to stoning regardless of their gender, but the method laid down for a man stipulates he be buried up to his waist, and a woman up to her neck.

Article 114 of Iran’s Civil codes states: When rajm [stoning] is being administered on a man he must be placed in a pit almost down to his waist, and when administered on a woman she must be placed in a pit almost down to her chest. Such barbaric behavior by the regime includes dictating the style, size and the administration of stoning while differentiating between male vs. female victims. Female victim up to her neck to avoid physical escape, however, even if condemned female victim is able to flee the scene,
authorities are obliged to arrest her and execute her by firing squad. As for the male victims, they are buried up to their waist and if able to escape the scene no further punishment awaits them.


FACTS and FIGURES

- Tens of thousands of women have been executed in Iran since 1979, when the mullahs took power. They were executed on political grounds, for their opposition to the policies of the ruling government. Among those executed were tens of pregnant women.

- The worst kinds of torture are inflicted on woman prisoners who oppose the regime. These include repeated sexual assaults, amputation of body parts and...

- Women played a very active role in the 40,000 teachers' demonstrations outside the Majlis on January 12, 2002. In these series of demonstrations, a number of women were arrested and imprisoned on charges of just participating in a demonstration.

- At least 22 women have been sentenced to stoning or stoned to death during Khatami's tenure Girls between ages 10 to 17 are the prime victims of sexual slavery in Iran. In Tehran alone, 4000 street girls roam the city on daily basis and are subjected to sexual and physical violence. Reports indicate that 90% of the runaway girls end up in prostitution or sold in Persian Gulf human trafficking market. Women and girls bare the brunt of Iran's poor economic conditions. 700,000 children, aged 10 to 14, work in black labor market in Iran. The latest statistics released by Iran's rganization of Management and Planning shows that 51% of the country's population live below the poverty line. Iran’s deputy Health Minister, Ali Akbar Sayari, admits that 20% of Iranian people go hungry daily. 67% of the students deprived of education are girls between 11 and 16 years old. Only 11% of Iranian women
are employed. The rate of mental and psychological problems among women is almost 26%. In the western and southern regions of the country, suicides are mostly self-immolations among women, which rates more than 6 in every 100,000 women. In a western province of Iran, deputy of governor on women's affairs, Heyran Pournajaf, reports "About 70% of those who commit suicide in Ilam are women.” The director general of social affairs of the governor reports that "90% of these women were between 17 and 35 years old. The real number of suicides is much higher than what we have." The World Health Organization has placed Iran on the top 3rd ranking country on death by suicide.

http://www.geocities.com/realitywithbite/lawsiran.htm

[Islam Rocks!]

As I have stated before, Iran is the only Shia (Shiite) country in the world.

All other Islamic countrys are Sunni Islam.

Shia Islam is a cult version of Islam and is considred heretical by all other Muslims.

But you have an anti-Islamic agenda, so I am sure that you don't care about misrepresenting over a billion people.

Really, I should post about the Aryan Nation as a representation of Christianity. After all, they claim to be Christians.
Better yet, the poison drinking, snake handling, fundamentalist church in Tennessee.
Now there's a true Bible believing church to judge Christians by!

[Smurf-Herder]

As I have stated before, Iran is the only Shia (Shiite) country in the world.

All other Islamic countrys are Sunni Islam.

Shia Islam is a cult version of Islam and is considred heretical by all other Muslims.

But you have an anti-Islamic agenda, so I am sure that you don't care about misrepresenting over a billion people.

Really, I should post about the Aryan Nation as a representation of Christianity. After all, they claim to be Christians.
Better yet, the poison drinking, snake handling, fundamentalist church in Tennessee.
Now there's a true Bible believing church to judge Christians by!

True. Iranian law is medeaval. But this thread did start on a story about Saudi Arabia. I'm not against Islam. I'm against a strict interpretation of Sharia law; and social norms based on it. I'm for a pluralistic, free society in all countries.

And none of the groups you mentioned are a government body, who codifies religious edicts into law.

[Smurf-Herder]

I greatly admire this woman:

http://www.myspace.com/irshadmanji

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1083918,00.html

http://www.irshadmanji.com/

[Islam Rocks!]

True. Iranian law is medeaval. But this thread did start on a story about Saudi Arabia. I'm not against Islam. I'm against a strict interpretation of Sharia law; and social norms based on it. I'm for a pluralistic, free society in all countries.

And none of the groups you mentioned are a government body, who codifies religious edicts into law.Don't get me wrong. I am all for Sharia Law, as are all true Muslims. We all wish to have Sharia Law as the legal system that we can live under.

Sharia Law is in sync with the natural order of people in the world. And was given by God for everyone to live by. It is based on logic and common sense. Not the capricious whims of politicians and selfish people.

Of course not all nations currently see the benefit of living under Islamic Law. But some day it will be viewed as the best legal system for all of mankind.

[Cat slave]

Well said SH!

And IR, strength matters. Women most always cannot defend themselves
against a man and they are too, afraid of women. You dont try to suppress
anyone unless they are a perceived opponent and not an equal. If you
represent such a progressive representation of Islam, why are you not
trying to change the others and show them a better way...a more humane
and appropriate way? I would think that that would be your duty as a good
Muslim.

It is despicable that our country wallows with the Saudis and their human rights
or rather the lack thereof in the way they treat women. We continue to boycott Cuba because they are communist but dance freely with China which is
much worse and all because some are reaping the financial benefits with the
dance with the devil!

[Cat slave]

Don't get me wrong. I am all for Sharia Law, as are all true Muslims. We all wish to have Sharia Law as the legal system that we can live under.

Sharia Law is in sync with the natural order of people in the world. And was given by God for everyone to live by. It is based on logic and common sense. Not the capricious whims of politicians and selfish people.

Of course not all nations currently see the benefit of living under Islamic Law. But some day it will be viewed as the best legal system for all of mankind.

I guess that you would be happy to be a woman under Sharia Law then?
Let the women vote on it.....before they are stoned to death at the polls.

[moonman]

I challenge every legal system that purports any person has half the value of another.

[Smurf-Herder]

Strict Sharia Law is sexist, antiquated; and is anathema to the basic principles of a free individual.

Islam is still where the Christians were during the infamous Spanish Inquisition. Islamic holy books are being interpreted to establish authoritarianism by way of mosque. Islam needs it's Reformation, to reach it's Enlightenment to embrace a more modern and free culture; as the Christians had long ago.

[Islam Rocks!]

Strict Sharia Law is sexist, antiquated; and is anathema to the basic principles of a free individual.

Islam is still where the Christians were during the infamous Spanish Inquisition. Islamic holy books are being interpreted to establish authoritarianism by way of mosque. Islam needs it's Reformation, to reach it's Enlightenment to embrace a more modern and free culture; as the Christians had long ago.

Yea, and look where Cristianity is now. A neutered religious system ignored by most people. Where nothing is sinfully any more and hell fire is never talked about.

Europe and America were based on Christianity. Now Christianity is marginalized and America is a sick secularized nation.

Where half of the marriages end in divorce.

50% of all babys are now born to single mothers. (90% in some urban areas).

Teenage pregancy is the norm.

Drugs abuse is rampant and gang scontrol the streets in major cities.

Alchololism treatment centers are everywhere and many, many people are on prozac.

Young teenage girls walk around the mall dressed like hookers used to dress.

"Girls Gone Wild" is one of the top selling videos on TV. ( I bet alot of fathers are proud when they see their daughters featured on that show!)

Every major city has a half-naked Gay Pride Parade for children to see.

And pedaphiles freely stalk the streets because there aren't enough police to keep up with the vast numbers in the community.

That's exactly why we don't want your so called "Reformation".

We are happy without all of the misery the West has brought on itself.

You have a SICK society but are in denial.

And then you have the audacity to call this state of affairs "Enlightenment".

Get real!!!!!

Islam is just fine like it is. You are the ones who needs fixing.

[moonman]

Yea, and look where Cristianity is now. A neutered religious system ignored by most people. Where nothing is sinfully any more and hell fire is never talked about.

Europe and America were based on Christianity. Now Christianity is marginalized and America is a sick secularized nation.

Where half of the marriages end in divorce.

50% of all babys are now born to single mothers. (90% in some urban areas).

Teenage pregancy is the norm.

Drugs abuse is rampant and gang scontrol the streets in major cities.

Alchololism treatment centers are everywhere and many, many people are on prozac.

Young teenage girls walk around the mall dressed like hookers used to dress.

"Girls Gone Wild" is one of the top selling videos on TV. ( I bet alot of fathers are proud when they see their daughters featured on that show!)

Every major city has a half-naked Gay Pride Parade for children to see.

And pedaphiles freely stalk the streets because there aren't enough police to keep up with the vast numbers in the community.

That's exactly why we don't want your so called "Reformation".

We are happy without all of the misery the West has brought on itself.

You have a SICK society but are in denial.

And then you have the audacity to call this state of affairs "Enlightenment".

Get real!!!!!

Islam is just fine like it is. You are the ones who needs fixing.

So why are you here and not there?

[Islam Rocks!]

I was born here in America. My ancestry goes back to before the Civil War. I am a Vietnam Era vet. All of my 6 children, two grandchildren, and other relatives live here. I only speak English.

So where would I go?

Seriously, I want to see America turn around and get better.
Right now we are in the grip of the Bush Crime Family.
The War in Iraq is draging us and the economy down, down, down.
Where flooded with illegal alliens.
Political Correctness is putting a strangle hold on everyone and everything.
And personal morals are a thing of the past.

Yes, there is alot that need to be fixed.

One thing I know is that Americans are resourceful.

We are lazy and self indulged. True

But when we need to, we can pull together and make things right.

So I plan on staying here in America and try to do my part to help this nation.

[moonman]

And you will somehow make America better by amending the Constitution such that Islamic Law will prevail?

[UserName]

Thank goodness we in America have become more civilized and have discarded most of these Religious beliefs that made women second class citizens.
About a hundred years ago women in America did not have a vote and were considered possessions. We have certainly progressed a long way from the backwards beliefs of Islam and Christianity.

[Islam Rocks!]

And you will somehow make America better by amending the Constitution such that Islamic Law will prevail?There is Nothing in the Constitution that would have to be amended or modified or changed, in order for Sharia Law to become the legal law of the land.

[Islam Rocks!]

I greatly admire this woman:

http://www.myspace.com/irshadmanji

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1083918,00.html

http://www.irshadmanji.com/I'm sure you do. The only thing Muslim about her is that she was born in an Islamic country.

The West loves her, but to Muslims she is just a bad joke. She will make up lies just to fill her pockets with money from guilible people buying her books.

Dresses like a slut----totally un-Islamic
Has her hair cut like a man----totally un-Islamic
Doesn't cover her hair----totally un-Islamic
Had a child out of wedlock----totally un-Islamic
Admitted lesbian----totally un-Islamic
Trying to modify the religion for personal gain----totally un-Islamic

Like I said; the West loves her because she is a traitor to Islam.

And all Muslims hate her because she is a traitor to Islam.

May she roast in Hell forever!!!

[Smurf-Herder]

I'm sure you do. The only thing Muslim about her is that she was born in an Islamic country.

The West loves her, but to Muslims she is just a bad joke. She will make up lies just to fill her pockets with money from guilible people buying her books.

Dresses like a slut----totally un-Islamic
Has her hair cut like a man----totally un-Islamic
Doesn't cover her hair----totally un-Islamic
Had a child out of wedlock----totally un-Islamic
Admitted lesbian----totally un-Islamic
Trying to modify the religion for personal gain----totally un-Islamic

Like I said; the West loves her because she is a traitor to Islam.

And all Muslims hate her because she is a traitor to Islam.

May she roast in Hell forever!!!

Well, that woman is a scholar who has used Islam to make her case, that the religion's text is being cherry-picked to promote the more authoritarian and militant aspects, diverting away from everything that shows Islam as a religion of peace.

Modern militant Islam is another example of man perverting the whole concept of an individual's relationship with a god, whatever he conceives of him to be; and turning it into an ideological tool to control his fellow man. With anyone dissenting or questioning an edict being accused of insulting Islam, punishable by death - Salmon Rushdie for example ........... or rioting and killing people over cartoons. The Islamic religion has been turned into a totalitarian political ideology.

[Islam Rocks!]

Well, that woman is a scholar who has used Islam to make her case, that the religion's text is being cherry-picked to promote the more authoritarian and militant aspects, diverting away from everything that shows Islam as a religion of peace.

Modern militant Islam is another example of man perverting the whole concept of an individual's relationship with a god, whatever he conceives of him to be; and turning it into an ideological tool to control his fellow man. With anyone dissenting or questioning an edict being accused of insulting Islam, punishable by death - Salmon Rushdie for example ........... or rioting and killing people over cartoons. The Islamic religion has been turned into a totalitarian political ideology.
She is the one who is cherry picking the Islamic texts to make herself alot of money from people who believe her non-sense.

She is Not an Islamic scholar as you state. I looked her up. She has No Islamic Scholar degrees. This cheap journalist slut just wrote a couple of books attacking Islam. Some scholar!

If you want to know what a real Americam Muslim woman thinks about Islam.
Then google Ingrid Matson PhD. She is a true degreed Islamic scholar at a recognized University where she heads the Islamic Studies department.

She is also the President of the ISNA (Islamic Society of North America) the largest Islamic organization in North America. And has given speeches at the White House and other government agencys including the FBI and the Pentagon.

Plus, Ingrid Matson dresses and acts like a proper Muslim woman. And is recognized by all Muslims as a leader in the Islamic community.

Unlike this fake supposed muslim woman Irshad Manji.

[moonman]

There is Nothing in the Constitution that would have to be amended or modified or changed, in order for Sharia Law to become the legal law of the land.

Oh really, 100 lashes for indulging the right to travel, is not cruel and unusual?

or 'bout these ten reasons why Sharia Law is unconstitutional in the USA; (Note: I confirmed the references to the Qu'ran and Hadith are accurate. I don not subscribe to the assertions of the author that Biblical Law is better. IMHO, the wall between Church & State cannot be high, deep or extend far enough.)

10. Islam commands that drinkers and gamblers should be whipped.

In 2001, Iranian officials sentenced three men to flogging not only for illicit sex (see reason no. nine), but also for drinking alcohol.

In 2005, in Nigeria a sharia court ordered that a drinker should be caned eighty strokes.

In 2005, in the Indonesian province of Aceh, fifteen men were caned in front of a mosque for gambling. This was done publicly so all could see and fear. Eleven others are scheduled to undergo the same penalty for gambling.

After going through two previous confusing stages before coming down hard on drinkers and gamblers, the Quran finally prohibits alcohol and gambling in Sura 5:90—91; they do not prescribe the punishment of flogging, but the hadith does. A poor 'criminal' was brought to Muhammad who became angry:

The Prophet felt it hard (was angry) and ordered all those who were present in the house, to beat him [the drinker dragged into Muhammad's presence]. (Bukhari, Punishments, nos. 6774—6775)

Thus, we see no offer of help for the alcoholic when he is dragged before Muhammad and his followers. Why does Muhammad not offer rehabilitation? Why does he immediately go to corporal punishment?

The later classical legal rulings follow the Quran and the hadith, so we do not need to examine them here.

It is sometimes argued that Islamic countries are pure, whereas the West is decadent. No one can argue with this latter claim, but are Islamic countries pure? The Supplemental Material, below, demonstrates that Islamic countries still have drinking and gambling in them.

Here is the article that supports this tenth point and that analyzes the confusing Quranic verses on drinking and gambling. It analyzes the hadith and later legal rulings.

9. Islam allows husbands to hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives.

In 2004, Rania al—Baz, who had been beaten by her husband, made her ordeal public to raise awareness about violence suffered by women in the home in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi television aired a talk show that discussed this issue. Scrolling three—fourths of the way down the link, the readers can see an Islamic scholar holding up sample rods that husbands may use to hit their wives.

The Quran says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (MAS Abdel Haleem, the Qur'an, Oxford UP, 2004)

The hadith says that Muslim women in the time of Muhammad were suffering from domestic violence in the context of confusing marriage laws:

Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az—Zubair Al—Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" (Bukhari)

This hadith shows Muhammad hitting his girl—bride, Aisha, daughter of Abu Bakr: Muslim no. 2127:

'He [Muhammad] struck me [Aisha] on the chest which caused me pain.'

It is claimed that Islamic societies have fewer incidents of fornication and adultery because of strict laws or customs, for example, women wearing veils over their faces or keeping separate from men in social settings. But these results of fewer incidents of sexual 'crimes' may have unanticipated negative effects in other areas, such as the oppression of women. Generally, sharia restricts women's social mobility and rights, the more closely sharia is followed. For example, in conservative Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to drive cars. In Iran, the law oppresses women. For example, women's testimony counts half that of men, and far more women than men are stoned to death for adultery.

Here is the supporting article for the ninth point. It has a long list of different translations of Sura 4:34, in order to resolve confusion over this verse, circulating around the web. This longer article has many links that demonstrate the oppression of women under Islamic law (scroll down to 'Further discussion').

8. Islam allows an injured plaintiff to exact legal revenge—physical eye for physical eye.

In 2003, in Saudi Arabia a man had two teeth extracted under the law of retaliation.

In 2003, a court in Pakistan sentenced a man to be blinded by acid after he carried out a similar attack on his fianc�e.

In 2005, an Iranian court orders a man's eye to be removed for throwing acid on another man and blinding him in both eyes.

The Quran says:

5:45 And We ordained therein for them: Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth and wounds equal for equal. But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which Allah has revealed, such are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers . . .). (Hilali and Khan, The Noble Qur'an, Riyadh: Darussalam, 1996)

This passage allows for an indemnity or compensation instead of imposing the literal punishment of eye for an eye. No one should have a quarrel with this option. According to the hadith, the plaintiff also has the option to forgive, and this is legitimate, provided a judge oversees the process. The problem is the literal law of retaliation.

The hadith and later legal rulings demonstrate that this excessive option was actually carried out, as do the three modern examples linked above.

Please go here for the supporting article that cites the hadith and later legal rulings.

Islamic law calls all of humanity to march backwards 1,400 years BC and to re—impose the old law of retaliation—literally, and the evidence suggest that the Torah never intended the law to be carried out literally, as the supporting article demonstrates.

7. Islam commands that a male and female thief must have a hand cut off.

Warning! This short article has photos of severed hands. The reader should never lose sight of the fact that this punishment is prescribed in the Quran, the eternal word of Allah. It does not exist only in the fevered imagination of a violent and sick radical regime like the Taliban, which once ruled in Afghanistan.

A Saudi cleric justifies chopping off hands here.

The Quran says:

5:38 Cut off the hands of thieves, whether they are male or female, as punishment for what they have done—a deterrent from God: God is almighty and wise. 39 But if anyone repents after his wrongdoing and makes amends, God will accept his repentance: God is most forgiving and merciful. (Haleem)

At first glance, verse 39 seems to accept repentance before the thief's hand is cut off. But the hadith states emphatically that repentance is acceptable only after mutilation. Muhammad himself says that even if his own daughter, Fatima, were to steal and then intercede that her hand should not be cut off, he would still have to cut it off (Bukhari, Punishments, no. 6788)

If the reader would like to see more hadith passages, modern defenses of this indefensible punishment (and a refutation of them), and the Biblical solution to theft, they should click on this long supporting article or this shorter one.

6. Islam commands that highway robbers should be crucified or mutilated.

In September 2003, Scotsman Sandy Mitchell faced crucifixion in Saudi Arabia. He was beaten and tortured until he confessed to a crime he did not commit: a bomb plot masterminded by the British embassy. The article says of this punishment that it is the worst kind of execution and that two have been carried out in the last twenty years.

In 2002 Amnesty International reports that even though Saudi Arabia ratified the Convention against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (Convention against Torture) in October 1997, amputation is prescribed under both Hudud (punishments) and Qisas (law of retaliation). AI has recorded thirty—three amputations and nine cross—amputations where the alternate hand or foot is mutilated.

The Quran says:

5:33 Those who wage war against God and His Messenger and strive to spread corruption in the land should be punished by death, crucifixion, the amputation of an alternate hand and foot or banishment from the land: a disgrace for them in this world, and then a terrible punishment in the Hereafter, 34 unless they repent before you overpower them: in that case bear in mind that God is forgiving and merciful. (Haleem)

It may be difficult to accept, but the hadith says that Muhammad tortured these next people before he executed them. This scenario provides the historical context of Sura 5:33—34. The explanations in parentheses have been added by the translator:

Narrated Anas: Some people . . . came to the Prophet and embraced Islam . . . [T]hey turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away . . . The Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they died. (Bukhari, Punishments, no. 6802)

The next hadith reports that the renegades died from bleeding to death because Muhammad refused to cauterize their amputated limbs. Then the hadith after that one reports that the renegades were not given water, so they died of thirst. They probably died of both causes: thirst and loss of blood.

See this short article for details on another example of Muhammad's use of torture.

Islamic law says that these punishments are imposed for highway robbery, and in some cases crucifixion does not need a murder before it is imposed.

For more information on Muhammad's brutality and the barbaric laws that flow out of it, go to the back—up article.

5. Islam commands that homosexuals must be executed.

In February 1998, the Taliban, who once ruled in Afghanistan, ordered a stone wall to be pushed over three men convicted of sodomy. Their lives were to be spared if they survived for 30 minutes and were still alive when the stones were removed.

In its 1991 Constitution, in Articles 108—113, Iran adopted the punishment of execution for sodomy.

In April 2005, a Kuwaiti cleric says homosexuals should be thrown off a mountain or stoned to death.

On April 7, 2005, it was reported that Saudi Arabia sentenced more than 100 men to prison or flogging for 'gay conduct.'

These homosexuals were lucky. Early Islam would have executed them, as these hadith demonstrate.

Ibn Abbas, Muhammad's cousin and highly reliable transmitter of hadith, reports the following about early Islam and Muhammad's punishment of homosexuals: . . .

'If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done' (Abu Dawud no. 4447).

This hadith passage says that homosexuals should be burned alive or have wall pushed on them:

Ibn Abbas and Abu Huraira reported God's messenger as saying, 'Accursed is he who does what Lot's people did.' In a version . . . on the authority of Ibn Abbas it says that Ali [Muhammad's cousin and son—in—law] had two people burned and that Abu Bakr [Muhammad's chief companion] had a wall thrown down on them. (Mishkat, vol. 1, p. 765, Prescribed Punishments)

Though this punishment of a wall being toppled on them is extreme, the Taliban were merely following the origins of their religion.

If the reader would like to see the confusion in the Quran on the matter of homosexuality, the severity in the hadith, and excessive rulings of classical fiqh, they should see the supporting article. This longer one has links to many discussions on Islamic punishments of homosexuals (scroll down to 'Supplemental material').

4. Islam orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death.

Fornication:

In 2001, Iranian officials sentenced three men to flogging for illicit sex.

The Quran says:

24:2 The fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. [This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime (illegal sex), but if married persons commit it (illegal sex), the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allah's law]. (Hilali and Khan).

The additions in the brackets, though not original to the Arabic, have the support of the hadith. These command flogging only of unmarried fornicators: Bukhari, Punishments, nos. 6831 and 6833.

The classical legal rulings follow the Quran and the hadith closely, so we do not need to analyze them here.

According to this report, in Iran a teenage boy broke his Ramadan fast, so a judge sentenced him to be lashed with eighty—five stripes. He died from the punishment. Though his sad case does not deal with fornication, it is cited here because it shows that lashing can be fatal.

Adultery:

In December 2004, Amnesty International reports:

An Iranian woman charged with adultery faces death by stoning in the next five days after her death sentence was upheld by the Supreme Court last month. Her unnamed co—defendant is at risk of imminent execution by hanging. Amnesty International members are now writing urgent appeals to the Iranian authorities, calling for the execution to be stopped.

She is to be buried up to her chest and stoned to death.

This gruesome hadith passage reports that a woman was buried up to her chest and stoned to death:

And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al—Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on his face he cursed her . . . (Muslim no. 4206)

The Prophet prayed over her dead body and then buried her. Truthfully, though, how effective was the prayer when Muhammad and his community murdered her in cold blood? The rest of the hadith says that Muhammad told Khalid not to be too harsh, but the Prophet's words drip with irony. Perhaps Muhammad meant that Khalid should not have cursed her. However, if they really did not want to be harsh, they should have forgiven her and let her go to raise her child.

Later Islamic legal rulings follow the Quran and the hadith closely, so we do not need to analyze them here.

Here is the back—up article that supports this fourth reason.

3. Islam orders death for Muslim and possible death for non—Muslim critics of Muhammad and the Quran and even sharia itself.

In 1989, Iran's Supreme Leader issued a fatwa (legal decree) to assassinate Salman Rushdie, a novelist, who wrote Satanic Verses, which includes questions about the angel Gabriel's role in inspiring the Quran. Now the extremists in the highest levels in Iran have recently renewed the fatwa.

In 2005, The Muslim Council of Victoria, Australia, brought a lawsuit against two pastors for holding a conference and posting articles critiquing Islam. Three Muslims attended the conference and felt offended. The two pastors have been convicted based on Australia's vilification law. While on trial, one of them wanted to read from the Quran on domestic violence (see 9, above), but the lawyer representing the Council would not allow it. The pastors are appealing their conviction.

In 2005, British Muslims have been campaigning to pass a religious hate speech law in England's parliament. They have succeeded. Their ability to propagandize has not been curtailed. Opponents of the law say that it stifles free speech that may criticize Muhammad, the Quran, and Islam.

Here are the classical legal rulings.

First, the Muslim deserves death for doing any of the following (Reliance of the Traveler pp. 597—98, o8.7):

(1) Reviling Allah or his Messenger; (2) being sarcastic about 'Allah's name, His command, His interdiction, His promise, or His threat'; (3) denying any verse of the Quran or 'anything which by scholarly consensus belongs to it, or to add a verse that does not belong to it'; (4) holding that 'any of Allah's messengers or prophets are liars, or to deny their being sent'; (5) reviling the religion of Islam; (6) being sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law; (7) denying that Allah intended 'the Prophet's message . . . to be the religion followed by the entire world.'

It is no wonder that critical investigation of the truth claims of Islam can never prevail in Islamic lands when the sword of Muhammad hangs over the scholars' head.

The non—Muslims living under Islamic rule are not allowed to do the following (p. 609, o11.10(1)—(5)):

(1) Commit adultery with a Muslim woman or marry her; (2) conceal spies of hostile forces; (3) lead a Muslim away from Islam; (4) mention something impermissible about Allah, the Prophet . . . or Islam.

According to the discretion of the caliph or his representative, the punishments for violating these rules are as follows: (1) death, (2) enslavement, (3) release without paying anything, and (4) ransoming in exchange for money. These punishments also execute free speech—even repulsive speech—and freedom of religion or conscience.

Ultimately, censorship testifies to a lack of confidence in one's position and message. If the message of Islam were truly superior, one could trust in the power of truth. As it stands, sharia with its prescribed punishments for questioning Muhammad, the Quran, and sharia itself testifies to their weakness since sharia threatens those who dare to differ.

How confident was Muhammad (and today's Muslims) in his message that he had to rely on violence and force to protect his message, besides reason and persuasive argumentation?

For the supporting article that analyzes the Quran and the hadith, both of which orders death to critics, click here.

2. Islam orders apostates to be killed.

In Iran an academic was condemned to death for criticizing clerical rule in Iran. The rulers assert that he was insulting Muhammad and Shi'ite laws. He was charged with apostasy.

This analysis tracks the application of apostasy laws around the world, citing many examples.

Apostates are those who leave Islam, like Salman Rushdie (see the linked article in no. three, above), whether they become atheists or convert to another religion. They are supposed to be killed according to the Quran, the hadith, and later legal rulings.

See the previous point no. three for acts that entail leaving Islam according to Islamic law.

Here are the articles that support reason no. two.

This is a short, but full article on apostasy, citing Quranic verses and hadith passages.

Sayyid Maududi, a respected Islamic scholar, in this booklet argues that Sura 9:11—12 refers to apostates and that they should be put to death (scroll down to 'The Proof in the Quran for the Commandment to Execute Apostates').

This Muslim website has an overview of Islam on apostates. They should be given time to repent, but if they refuse, they must be killed.

And the number one reason why sharia is bad for all societies . . .

1. Islam commands offensive and aggressive and unjust jihad.

Muhammad is foundational to Islam, and he set the genetic code for Islam, waging war. In the ten years that he lived in Medina from his Hijrah (Emigration) from Mecca in AD 622 to his death of a fever in AD 632, he either sent out or went out on seventy—four raids, expeditions, or full—scale wars. They range from small assassination hit squads to kill anyone who insulted him, to the Tabuk Crusades in late AD 630 against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a rumor that an army was mobilizing to invade Arabia, but the rumor was false, so his 30,000 jihadists returned home, but not before imposing a jizya tax on northern Christians and Jews.

Money flowed into the Islamic treasury. So why would Muhammad get a revelation to dry up this money flow?

What are some of the legalized rules of jihad found in the Quran, hadith, and classical legal opinions?

(1) Women and children are enslaved. They can either be sold, or the Muslims may 'marry' the women, since their marriages are automatically annulled upon their capture. (2) Jihadists may have sex with slave women. Ali, Muhammad's cousin and son—in—law, did this. (3) Women and children must not be killed during war, unless this happens in a nighttime raid when visibility was low. (4) Old men and monks could be killed. (5) A captured enemy of war could be killed, enslaved, ransomed for money or an exchange, freely released, or beaten. One time Muhammad even tortured a citizen of the city of Khaybar in order to extract information about where the wealth of the city was hidden. (6) Enemy men who converted could keep their property and small children. This law is so excessive that it amounts to forced conversion. Only the strongest of the strong could resist this coercion and remain a non—Muslim. (7) Civilian property may be confiscated. (8) Civilian homes may be destroyed. (9) Civilian fruit trees may be destroyed. (10) Pagan Arabs had to convert or die. This does not allow for the freedom of religion or conscience. (11) People of the Book (Jews and Christians) had three options (Sura 9:29): fight and die; convert and pay a forced 'charity' or zakat tax; or keep their Biblical faith and pay a jizya or poll tax. The last two options mean that money flows into the Islamic treasury, so why would Muhammad receive a revelation to dry up this money flow?

In short IR, Sharia Law is repugnant to each of ten enumerated rights and also to our inalienable rights.

[Islam Rocks!]

Apparently Moonman you have no idea what the Constitution say or is about.

The Constitution is a political statement dealing with states rights and the relationship between the 3 branches of government. This leads to Constitional Law.

The broad topic of constitutional law deals with the interpretation and implementation of the United States Constitution As the Constitution is the foundation of the United States, constitutional law deals with some of the fundamental relationships within our society. This includes relationships among the states, the states and the federal government, the three branches (The Executive, Legislature, Judiciary) of the federal government, and the rights of the individual in relation to both federal and state government.

I stand by my statement Moonman: The Constution would Not have to be amended, changed, or modified, if Islamic Law became the law of the land.


So your long convoluted post of all kind of mixed accusations against Islamic Law and culture has nothing to do with the subject.

But it makes it obvious that besides Not having a clue as to what the Constitution is about or what is says.

You really even know less about Islam and Sharia Law.

(btw Moonman; The Bill of Rights and various Amendments deal with the rights of individuals.)

[moonman]

Apparently Moonman you have no idea what the Constitution say or is about.

The Constitution is a political statement dealing with states rights and the relationship between the 3 branches of government. This leads to Constitional Law.

The broad topic of constitutional law deals with the interpretation and implementation of the United States Constitution As the Constitution is the foundation of the United States, constitutional law deals with some of the fundamental relationships within our society. This includes relationships among the states, the states and the federal government, the three branches (The Executive, Legislature, Judiciary) of the federal government, and the rights of the individual in relation to both federal and state government.

I stand by my statement Moonman: The Constution would Not have to be ammended, changed, or modified, if Islamic Law became the law of the land.


So your long convoluted post of all kind of mixed accusations against Islamic Law and culture has nothing to do with the subject.

But it makes it obvious that besides Not having a clue as to what the Constitution is about or what is says.

You really even know less about Islam and Sharia Law.

(btw Moonman; The Bill of Rights and various Ammendments deal with the rights of individuals.)

I noticed you don't refute one cite from the Quran or the Haddith because you can't, the cites are accurate.

As for my understanding of the Constitution? Your post doesn't pass the laugh test.

[Islam Rocks!]

I noticed you don't refute one cite from the Quran or the Haddith because you can't, the cites are accurate.

As for my understanding of the Constitution? Your post doesn't pass the laugh test.I really just barely scaned over the long mixed up post you copyed and pasted from some anti-Islamic site.

It had nothing to do with the original statement of mine dealing with the Constitution. Which makes me think you don't have a clue as to reading or understanding of the Constitution. In fact, so far you have Not made a single fact or point about the Constitution or Constitional Law.

If you really wanted to address the issue you would have listed exactly what differences or conflicts there would be between the Constitution and Sharia Law. And then listed them point by point.

After you do this Moonman. I would be happy to go over each and every one of the Islamic Law rulings that you want to bring up. But only one or two at a time. Not a whole laundry list like you recently posted.

Fair enough............?

[moonman]

I really just barely scaned over the long mixed up post you copyed and pasted from some anti-Islamic site.

It had nothing to do with the original statement of mine dealing with the Constitution. Which makes me think you don't have a clue as to reading or understanding of the Constitution. In fact, so far you have Not made a single fact or point about the Constitution or Constitional Law.

If you really wanted to address the issue you would have listed exactly what differences or conflicts there would be between the Constitution and Sharia Law. And then listed them point by point.

After you do this Moonman. I would be happy to go over each and every one of the Islamic Law rulings that you want to bring up. But only one or two at a time. Not a whole laundry list like you recently posted.

Fair enough............?

Not nearly fair enuf'. I won't indulge a lunatic who claims to be American born and living in Boston and disputes that the Bill of Rights and Amendments are not part of the Constitution.

Sharia Law is as repugnant to our Constitution as is the Christian Book of Leviticus found in the Bible. Yer a really sick fuck IR, as are all zealots, and I hope you get some counseling and maybe deprogramming.

[Islam Rocks!]

Not nearly fair enuf'. I won't indulge a lunatic who claims to be American born and living in Boston and disputes that the Bill of Rights and Amendments are not part of the Constitution.

Sharia Law is as repugnant to our Constitution as is the Christian Book of Leviticus found in the Bible. Yer a really sick fuck IR, as are all zealots, and I hope you get some counseling and maybe deprogramming.The Bill of Rights and the Amendments are not part of the orginal Contitution.

Look it up and read the document

Every 6th grade child is taught this in school.

Moonman you know I am right, but are just too ashamed to admitt that you are wrong. That's why you have reverted to personal attacks and name calling.

[moonman]

Not true IR. I lose all respect for anyone who lacks integrity.

In post #33 of this thread you wrote, "There is Nothing in the Constitution that would have to be amended or modified or changed, in order for Sharia Law to become the legal law of the land." (Emphasis added)

I post #38, you wrote, "I stand by my statement Moonman: The Constution would Not have to be amended, changed, or modified, if Islamic Law became the law of the land." (Empahsis added)

In post #40 you wrote, "It had nothing to do with the original statement of mine dealing with the Constitution. Which makes me think you don't have a clue as to reading or understanding of the Constitution. In fact, so far you have Not made a single fact or point about the Constitution or Constitional Law." (Emphasis added)

And finally, you attempt to clarify your meaning with the alegedly winning argument by referencing a document you identify as the original constitution.

Now you have displayed both intelectual dishonesty by instead of defending your orignal statement as promised you changed your statement. One cannot debate such a dishonorable person, honorably.

To suggest as you do that the 26 Amendments to the Constitution are not part the Constitution is either stupidity in the extreme or total lack of good character and honor on your part.

Puh-LEEZE explain by what law or rule an AMENDMENT is not then part of that which is amended. SHEESH, I can believe what some morons try to pass off as intelligent. First Islam Rocks fails to walk his own talk, then displays a total lack of intellectual integrity AND has the gall to demand respect?

I pity you. You are exhibiting symptoms consistant with cult members. You may have the last word, unless of course you can;

1. Prove one cite, in the ten point refutation incorrect.
2. Establish by fact not rhetoric, an Amendment is not part of the whole.

In other words display some integrity as opposed to dime store gamesmanship and stupidy.

[Betty Blowtorch]

Men were put on the earth to rule
and women to obey their husbands.

Just the natural order of the world.
Oh my lord! http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/2681/nun1xz8.gif


What are you gonna do http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/6302/hillaryvengeanceuv1.jpg
when Hillary wins the election and becomes the leader of the free world?


It'll turn your penis-dominated natural order http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/8665/headupassir0.jpg
upside down and inside out.

[moonman]

Oh my lord! http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/2681/nun1xz8.gif


What are you gonna do http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/6302/hillaryvengeanceuv1.jpg
when Hillary wins the election and becomes the leader of the free world?


It'll turn your penis-dominated natural order http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/8665/headupassir0.jpg
upside down and inside out.

Oh that's 2phunny Betty.

It might be worth electing Hillary just to pucker their 7th Century asses.

[Islam Rocks!]

Oh that's 2phunny Betty.

It might be worth electing Hillary just to pucker their 7th Century asses.Miss Betty and Moonman you really don't have a clue, but I will enlighten you both.

Muslims have absolutely No problem with having a woman President.

In fact several Muslim countrys have had women Presidents and rulers.

Mrs. Butto who is in the news lately, is a former President of Pakistain, and hopes to be President again. Pakistain is one of the largest Islamic countrys in the world. And btw is a Democracy with Sharia Law as the law of the land.

Pakistain has only been a nation for around 50 years and has already had a woman elected President.

The United States is well over 200 years old and has elected how many women President????........................like Zero/None//Nada!!!!!

Now who is more progressive and open minded................Muslims by far!!!

[Islam Rocks!]

Not true IR. I lose all respect for anyone who lacks integrity.

In post #33 of this thread you wrote, "There is Nothing in the Constitution that would have to be amended or modified or changed, in order for Sharia Law to become the legal law of the land." (Emphasis added)

I post #38, you wrote, "I stand by my statement Moonman: The Constution would Not have to be amended, changed, or modified, if Islamic Law became the law of the land." (Empahsis added)

In post #40 you wrote, "It had nothing to do with the original statement of mine dealing with the Constitution. Which makes me think you don't have a clue as to reading or understanding of the Constitution. In fact, so far you have Not made a single fact or point about the Constitution or Constitional Law." (Emphasis added)

And finally, you attempt to clarify your meaning with the alegedly winning argument by referencing a document you identify as the original constitution.

Now you have displayed both intelectual dishonesty by instead of defending your orignal statement as promised you changed your statement. One cannot debate such a dishonorable person, honorably.

To suggest as you do that the 26 Amendments to the Constitution are not part the Constitution is either stupidity in the extreme or total lack of good character and honor on your part.

Puh-LEEZE explain by what law or rule an AMENDMENT is not then part of that which is amended. SHEESH, I can believe what some morons try to pass off as intelligent. First Islam Rocks fails to walk his own talk, then displays a total lack of intellectual integrity AND has the gall to demand respect?

I pity you. You are exhibiting symptoms consistant with cult members. You may have the last word, unless of course you can;

1. Prove one cite, in the ten point refutation incorrect.
2. Establish by fact not rhetoric, an Amendment is not part of the whole.

In other words display some integrity as opposed to dime store gamesmanship and stupidy.
Moonman....try to focus

You have yet to answer my statement: "The Constitution would Not have to be amended, or changed, or modified, for Sharia Law to become the law of the land."

It don't matter whether we are talking about the origional Constitution or the Constitution as it has been amended today. ---O.K.

You keep dancing all around the question and haven't answered it yet.

Please show me where there is incompatibily between the two; You say there is, so show me. Please.

Otherwise, just admitt that you were wrong. Thanks!