Crusades, Jihad, Christianity & Islam

[Bill Cosby]

I was wondering if anyone might be interested in discussing this topic??

& perhaps how these ancient events & the effects are w/ us to this day...

[Bill Cosby]

Well it looks like Merc is hijacking his own thread......

Oh well, maybe someday......lol

[cottonbroker1]

Bill, I'm very weak on this subject...I would like to see some good convo on this. I might learn something here....

[Bill Cosby]

I am hoping to learn a little myself.............

I have read a few books on it a couple years ago & probably two or three prior to that...........

Big Dog has brought it up a few times but I dunno how much he has researched the topic or if he is even interested in discussing it......

Most ppl find discussing history boring, especially the crusades etc........

I have gone to a few history forums & I can see why most ppl don't wanna discuss it- those were some of the most interesting topics I was eager to discuss but they were some of the lamest & most boring ppl I have ever ran across on line....

I couldn't handle a week of them.......:lmao2: :lmao2:

[cottonbroker1]

I am hoping to learn a little myself.............

I have read a few books on it a couple years ago & probably two or three prior to that...........

Big Dog has brought it up a few times but I dunno how much he has researched the topic or if he is even interested in discussing it......

Most ppl find discussing history boring, especially the crusades etc........

I have gone to a few history forums & I can see why most ppl don't wanna discuss it- those were some of the most interesting topics I was eager to discuss but they were some of the lamest & most boring ppl I have ever ran across on line....

I couldn't handle a week of them.......:lmao2: :lmao2:
i love history and I like to learn so it would be good for me and interesting to me just to read the posts and ask questions....

[Bill Cosby]

Well we need players............

[OldMercsRule]

Well it looks like Merc is hijacking his own thread......

Oh well, maybe someday......lol

I did do that didn't I? LOL. :D

When ever discussing Islam vs Christendom in debate where most from the Left use the "moral equivalence" argument, and portray both religions as equally bad/violent/dangerous.......

I like to go back 500 plus years in history and show that One religion modernized, and became less political n' much less violent, (Cortez Spanish Inquisition et al), and one did not. Jesus preached to his flock to obey Rome's law where Islam (submission), is a full meal world dominating deal, with church state all rapped into one..... 24x7 total corntrol of every Muslim individual's time.

Islam has been much more violent over the last 100 years especially. Phillipines, India, Pak, ME, Indonesia; burning cars in Europe, blowing up Trains/Busses in Europe, knocking down buildings in the USA.

History is the only way to have perspective and show real difference in the two, thus always somewhat of a hyjack.

Me overpriced $.02.

[Bill Cosby]

I would be interested in discussing w/in those bounds...

500 years is not that long ago......

A moral equivalency is what you make it..... If one hopes to avoid that I guess he could define it, why one is more moral than the other...

I see that as pretty subjective w/out concrete examples-given the nature of warfare I would think they would be hard to come by.. DunnO!!!

500 some years ago all states were essentially a theocracy in that your faith was not a choice-it was dictated to you & you opposed it @ peril of your life...

As the Italian city states were able to come out from under that-secularism as we know it today was born........ (In a nutshell of course)..........

Commerce lead them to make choices favorable to themselves, not necessarily to the Church.......

It was also that commerce that essentially brought the crusades to an end.... There was better things to do, & more money to be made doing things other than crusading............

[Bill Cosby]

Also I would not agree Islam was anywhere near as violent as the nations of "Christiandom"..................

[OldMercsRule]

I would be interested in discussing w/in those bounds...

500 years is not that long ago......

I wouldn't limit the length of time to 500 years, (that is when the Christian religion modernized and returned to the philosophy of Christ, (the hold of the Catholic Church as a reminant of the Roman Empire was lessened), and became much less violent.

Prior to then both religions were violent, (one from an aggressive original design), one that replied to said aggression by imitating the aggressor to survive. One invaded the other and then conquered a great deal of territory from the formerly Christian domain and then one counter attacked and was largely repulsed. That was the violent phaze of Christianity that changed 500 years ago.

A moral equivalency is what you make it..... If one hopes to avoid that I guess he could define it, why one is more moral than the other...

I see that as pretty subjective w/out concrete examples-given the nature of warfare I would think they would be hard to come by.. DunnO!!!

BIG BILL, I admire yer debate style. Most modern Liberals tend to be very critical of all religion butt: by far the most critical of Christianity, (with 2000 years of cornplex history ta pick and choose their arguments). They are also most critical of their own country and tend to imbrace other competing systems. I hang the termite label fer that very reason.

Christianity has never been a church state religion/political ideoligy by design as Islam, (submission), has been from the very start. That is the biggest difference between the two religions.

Jesus preached to his flock that the laws of Rome should be obeyed. When Rome collapsed the very weak disorganized (formerly Rome dominated Christian teritories), did retain the Roman Church installed by the Roman Empire, which then asserted power over most of the teritory, due largely to power vacuum from the fall of Rome, (until the reformation happened).

Part of the moderization was the eventual securlization as was the original design, butt the church/state combinations were not a result of Christ's philosophy, butt the tendency of power in the Catholic Church to corruptly assert power over weak or failed Gubments, (if you could even call those feudal systems Gubments), in the middle/dark ages.

Christianity initially spread via the werd, (gospel), not the sword, or the Roman lyons would not have been so well fed.

Islam, (submission), was and has always been spread with the sword and if that difference is not appearent then history and Christ's philosophy is not being cornsidered.

Due to this fundamental difference, Islam was far more successful then Christianity as a military world empire building doctrine. Most of the world's technology, (medicine astronomy, mathmatics et al), flourished under Islam until 500 years ago. Constantine adopted Christianity, (and he was not forced to do so via the sword).

That didn't stop the Roman Empire from using the Catholic Church as part of the state's governing power, and once the Empire fell that was all that remained of the power structure. We all know that with man: power corrupts and it did.

500 some years ago all states were essentially a theocracy in that your faith was not a choice-it was dictated to you & you opposed it @ peril of your life...

True, butt: in the case of Islam, (submission), that was by design of the original world dominating military philosophy directly from the Quran.

In the case of Christianity it was due to the fall of Rome and the fact that the Catholic church, (installed by the Roman state- NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND), was the only remaining power in Europe. It is why modern Christianity has been compatible with secular states after Reformation, and only Turkey after WW1, and the end of the Ottoman Empire, has had some success with a somewhat sucular Gubment.

After the fall of Rome, in response to the huge military gains of Islam, Christianity, or rather the Roman Catholic Church did copy Islam in military and state matters in the middle/dark ages n' Crusades up to Reformation, butt: once Reformation occured it swung back to the original philosophy of Christ where the state made laws and the religion co-existed.

To sumarize: Islam is a full meal deal, (and always has been), and always werks toward a militarily imposed world dominating Church with a Caliphate that totally corntrols those who submit 24 x 7.

Christianity was initially spread with werds, (gospel), not swords due to the original philosophy of Christ. Provided food for the Roman lyons until an Emperor adopted the religion and then changed it to be part of the Roman state.

As the Italian city states were able to come out from under that-secularism as we know it today was born........ (In a nutshell of course)..........

Commerce lead them to make choices favorable to themselves, not necessarily to the Church.......

It was also that commerce that essentially brought the crusades to an end.... There was better things to do, & more money to be made doing things other than crusading............

2000 years of history is a long time with very many cornplexities. It is fairly easy for a Liberal/Progressive/Socialist/Commie/Statist termite, (not calling you that: BIG BILL), to exploit said history to make the false claim of moral equivilency.

[OldMercsRule]

Also I would not agree Islam was anywhere near as violent as the nations of "Christiandom"..................

Then ya need to study the original Islamic conquest.

[Darmosiel]

Well it looks like Merc is hijacking his own thread......

Oh well, maybe someday......lol

Threads do sometimes get off point. It's all good as long as people are interested in the discussion. Too bad there's no way to shift part of that thread over to this one.

[Darmosiel]

Then ya need to study the original Islamic conquest.

I'm gonna post the Timeline again in this thread to refer to because it's very complicated for people that aren't as up on the details (like myself) can look it over.

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/imperialism/notes/islamchron.html

[Bill Cosby]

I could do that but as you said, topics do that all the time........

We prefer ppl stay close to the orig topic but after a few pages things go in many directions.........

[Bill Cosby]

Then ya need to study the original Islamic conquest.

Sure Merc............ Now you wanna talk about the original conquest not "the last 100 years". :rolleyes:.........more violent over the last 100 years

It was not the evil mooslums starting world wars, colonial empires etc resulting in the deaths of tens of millions................:thumbsup:

[Darmosiel]

I had heard of Charlemagne but I guess I ether forgot or am fuzzy on the details. I knew the Muslims got to Spain because of the Moorish influence in the architecture. I didn't know Muslims had invaded France.

I posted a comment in the other thread pertaining to the timeline:

641 AD Islam spread into Egypt at the invitation of the Catholic Archbishop to help free Egypt from the Romans. Bill responded.

However, I still find that item curious because why would a Catholic Archbishop request help from Muslims to attack a Roman occupied area?

Wasn't the Roman army Catholic during this time?... hmmm much of this time in history is confusing to me. However as Bill pointed out in his other post so many various fractions of Christianity were fighting among themselves as well.

It seems to me we as a species needs to have a cause to fight for. If we can't find a common enemy then we fight amongst ourselves. :lmao2:

[Bill Cosby]

I wouldn't limit the length of time to 500 years, (that is when the Christian religion modernized and returned to the philosophy of Christ, (the hold of the Catholic Church as a reminant of the Roman Empire was lessened), and became much less violent.

Prior to then both religions were violent, (one from an agressive original design), one that replied to said agression by imitating the agressor to survive. One invaded the other and then conquered a great deal of territory from the formerly Christian domain and then one counter attacked and was largely repulsed. That was the violent phaze of Christianity that changed 500 years ago.



BIG BILL, I admire yer debate style. Most modern Liberals tend to be very critical of all religion butt: by far the most critical of Christianity, (with 2000 years of cornplex history ta pick and choose their arguments). They are also most critical of their own country and tend to imbrace other competing systems. I hang the termite label fer that very reason.

Christianity has never been a church state religion/political ideoligy by design as Islam, (submission), has been from the very start. That is the biggest difference between the two religions.

Jesus preached to his flock that the laws of Rome should be obeyed. When Rome collapsed the very weak disorganized (formerly Rome dominated Christian teritories), did retain the Roman Church insatlled by the Roman Empire, which then asserted power over most of the teritory, due largely to power vacuum from the fall of Rome, (until the reformation happened).

Part of the moderization was the eventual securlization as was the original design, butt the church/state combinations were not a result of Christ's philosophy, butt the tendency of power in the Catholic Church to corruptly assert power over weak or failed Gubments, (if you could even call those feudal systems Gubments), in the middle/dark ages.

Christianity initially spread via the werd, (gospel), not the sword, or the Roman lyons would not have been so well fed.

Islam, (submission), was and has always been spread with the sword and if that difference is not appearent then history and Christ's philosophy is not being cornsidered.

Due to this fundamental difference, Islam was far more successful then Christianity as a military world empire building doctrine. Most of the world's technology, (medicine astronomy, mathmatics et al), flourished under Islam until 500 years ago. Constantine adopted Christianity, (and he was not forced to do so via the sword).

That didn't stop the Roman Empire from using the Catholic Church as part of the state's governing power, and once the Empire fell that was all that remained of the power structure. We all now that with man: power corrupts and it did.



True, butt: in the case of Islam, (submission), that was by design of the original world dominating military philosophy directly from the Quran.

In the case of Christianity it was due to the fall of Rome and the fact that the Catholic church, (installed by the Roman state- NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND), was the only remaining power in Europe. It is why modern Christianity has been compatible with secular states after Reformation, and only Turkey after WW1, and the end of the Ottoman Empire, has had some succes with a somewhat sucular Gubment.

After the fall of Rome, in response to the huge military gains of Islam, Christianity, or rather the Roman Catholic Church did copy Islam in military and state matters in the middle/dark ages n' Crusades up to Reformation, butt: once Reformation occured it swung back to the original philosophy of Christ where the state made laws and the religion co-existed.

To sumarize: Islam is a full meal deal, (and always has been), and always werks toward a militarily imposed world dominating Church with a Caliphate that totally corntrols those who submit 24 x 7.

Christianity was initially spread with werds, (gospel), not swords due to the original philosophy of Christ. Provided food for the Roman lyons until an Emperor adopted the religion and then changed it to be part of the Roman state.



2000 years of history is a long time with very many cornplexities. It is fairly easy for a Liberal/Progressive/Socialist/Commie/Statist termite, (not calling you that: BIG BILL), to exploit said history to make the false claim of moral equivilency.



I dunno what philosophy of Christ means- A term or convenience?? @ no time, @ least IMHO did any of those nations act in a manner anywhere near the teaching of Christ-not even close…..

So we are clear here, neither Islam or Christianity attacked anyone, ppl did. Kings & princess acting on their own behalf-PERIOD..

Perhaps it was not by design, that is opinion…. But it was in fact so….. You mentioned Charlemagne I believe in your thread?? You recall the story of his crowning I assume.. While they did not always act in accordance w/ the pope or popes they notheless owned him something & on fear of excommunication…….

Charlemagne was a conquer the same as the evil Muslims-ask any Saxon….

Wrong, Islam has not always been spread by the sword…… Did Muslim armies conquer Indonesia?? Malaysia?? NO!!!!

Most converted, & for mostly personal reasons such as MONEY!!!!!

Again I totally disagree…….. Islam is essentially holding the same land they have since the crusades, Christianity (supposed Christian nations) took over the rest of the world & they did so by force, & that is the state of the world pretty much to this very day..

I believe you are rewriting history regarding the reformation….. The crusades & the forces driving them had already begun to wane, the reformation did not cause it..

There is no Caliphate now nor has there been one for quite some time, that would seem to undermine your own argument??


I think now we have a general idea of how we view this but for sake of argument I think it would be best to focus on one aspect @ a time or perhaps one chunk of time, or a theme such as theocracy in Islam as opposed to in Christianity…..

Sound good??

[Bill Cosby]

I had heard of Charlemagne but I guess I ether forgot or am fuzzy on the details. I knew the Muslims got to Spain because of the Moorish influence in the architecture. I didn't know Muslims had invaded France.

I posted a comment in the other thread pertaining to the timeline:

641 AD Islam spread into Egypt at the invitation of the Catholic Archbishop to help free Egypt from the Romans. Bill responded.

However, I still find that item curious because why would a Catholic Archbishop request help from Muslims to attack a Roman occupied area?

Wasn't the Roman army Catholic during this time?... hmmm much of this time in history is confusing to me. However as Bill pointed out in his other post so many various fractions of Christianity were fighting among themselves as well.

It seems to me we as a species needs to have a cause to fight for. If we can't find a common enemy then we fight amongst ourselves. :lmao2:


It was not unique to this time........... It is happening even today.......

The kuaiti royal family got their asses saved by infidels they called to help......

The house of saud is protected from other Muslims states & their own ppl by infidels........

Religion is a convenience for kings & princesses & they have no qualms about calling the bad ppl to help them if it furthers their (not necessarily their professed faiths) agenda.....

As I said, often times ppl preferred the yoke of the other faith as opposed to that of their coreligionist how would harass & force them to conform to their version of the faith-not dissimilar to what was happening in Islam a bit latter-shia vs sunni...........

They simply paid their tax & were left alone.......... :dunno:

[Darmosiel]

So we are clear here, neither Islam or Christianity attacked anyone, ppl did. Kings & princess acting on their own behalf-PERIOD..



Excellent point. I suppose that's why many people do an auto turn off when Christians start talking. So many centuries of using Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) to justify war and death. Doing God's work. It was never the religion or even the original teachings of Jesus that killed anyone. It was always men using the banner of God.

The Crusades may have started out with a 'True" purpose in defense of Christian soil. But the Pope(s) used the crusades to their advantage. Send the thugs and zealots out to kill Muslims. Get them off the roads where they preyed on the working and farmers. Do you know that's how Sunday started?

Robbers would lay in wait and prey on farmers and merchants. The Pope decided there needed to be at least one day when people could travel without this worry and proclaimed Sunday as a day of rest. But it was a day of rest for the robbers not the merchants who knew they could travel that one day a week and not be accosted.

[OldMercsRule]

Sure Merc............ Now you wanna talk about the original conquest not "the last 100 years". :rolleyes:.........

Hmmmmm........ In the last 100 years there have been a number of attacks all over the world in the name of Islam, by followers of Islam in the name of Allah.

Here is a list over the last month:

" List of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 1 Month

Date Country City Killed Injured Description
2011.09.17 Afghanistan Faryab 9 1 Five children are among nine civilians ripped to pieces by a Taliban bomb.
2011.09.16 Nigeria Maiduguri 1 0 Boko Haram radicals kill one of their own for holding peace talks.
2011.09.16 Thailand Yala 2 3 Islamists gun down two persons at a mosque.
2011.09.16 Thailand Narathiwat 4 118 Four tourists are killed in a 40-minute bombing spree by Islamic militants.
2011.09.15 Dagestan Kadar 1 0 Muslim radicals enter an imam's home and shoot him 57 times.
2011.09.15 Thailand Pattani 5 1 Islamists set off a landmine under a vehicle, then drag out five injured soldiers and shoot them in the head.
2011.09.15 Pakistan Lower Dir 45 62 A suicide bomber detonates in the middle of a packed funeral, killing at least forty-five mourners.
2011.09.14 Thailand Narathiwat 2 2 A Muslim soldier murders two Buddhists in a suicide attack.
2011.09.14 Iraq Ramadai 6 10 Six Iraqis at an airport are sent to Allah by Jihad bombers.
2011.09.14 Iraq Hillah 17 46 Seventeen people die in a car bomb blast outside a restaurant, including three children.
2011.09.14 Pakistan Tirah 1 0 Islamists behead a civilian.
2011.09.13 Pakistan Khyber 3 3 Three tribal elders are executed by radical Muslims.
2011.09.13 Pakistan Matani 5 19 Sunni militants blast a school bus full of children with machine-gun fire, killing four kids and the driver.
2011.09.13 Afghanistan Kabul 21 31 Over twenty people are killed when a wave of Fedayeen assault the US embassy.
2011.09.13 Iraq Taji 1 9 A Shahid suicide bomber kills a civilian.
2011.09.12 Indonesia Maluku 6 80 Six people are killed when machete-wielding Muslims attack a Christian village on a false rumor.
2011.09.12 Iraq Mosul 1 0 Mujahideen behead a man in his own home.
2011.09.12 Iraq Anbar 22 0 Sunnis stop a bus carrying Shiite pilgrims and and shoot twenty-two of them in the back of the head.
2011.09.12 Nigeria Misau 7 7 A suspected Boko Haram assault on a bank leaves seven dead.
2011.09.12 Nigeria Maiduguri 4 0 Boko Haram Islamists shoot two bar workers and two patrons.
2011.09.11 Afghanistan Wardak 5 94 Children are among the casualties when Fedayeen detonate a truck bomb.
2011.09.11 Iraq Baquba 1 7 A journalist at a cafe bleeds to death following a Mujahid bombing.
2011.09.11 Afghanistan Bermel 6 9 The Taliban take out six civilians, including two women, with a roadside bomb.
2011.09.11 Afghanistan Charkh 6 0 The bodies of six civilian contract workers are found five days after being abducted by Sunni militants.
2011.09.11 Afghanistan Gortepa 5 0 Three children are among five civilians disassembled by a homemade Sunni bomb.
2011.09.10 Nigeria Vwang 14 6 Fourteen Christian villagers from the same family, including a woman in labor, are hacked to death during a midnight Muslim raid.
2011.09.10 Afghanistan Ghazni 1 0 Religious radicals assassinate a police chief.
2011.09.09 Somalia Mogadishu 5 10 An al-Shabaab bomb left on the street sends five souls to Allah.
2011.09.09 Nigeria Kunsen Gashish 3 0 Three Protestant farmers are hacked to death by machete-wielding Muslims.
2011.09.09 Nigeria Barkin Ladi 9 0 A Christian father and his seven young children are among nine shot to death in a Fulani raid on their home.
2011.09.08 Afghanistan Sangin 7 5 A Shahid suicide bomber takes out seven Afghans with a nail-packed car bomb.
2011.09.08 Afghanistan Heart 3 0 Sunni bombers take down an engineer and two other employees at a construction company.
2011.09.07 Pakistan Quetta 26 80 Twin suicide bombers send over two dozen souls to Allah including a woman and three children.
2011.09.07 India New Delhi 15 89 Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami cadres use a suitcase bomb to murder fifteen others outside a packed courtroom.
2011.09.06 Nigeria Zakaleo 4 0 Four Christians are burned alive when militant Muslims set fire to their house.
2011.09.06 Thailand Narathiwat 2 5 A 9-year-old boy is among the victims of two attacks by Muslim gunmen, one at a teahouse.
2011.09.06 Thailand Yala 1 0 Islamists kill a 38-year-old Buddhist teacher, then set his body on fire.
2011.09.05 Pakistan Faisalabad 1 0 Islamic seminary students shoot an innocent member of the Ahmadi sect to death.
2011.09.05 Afghanistan Parwan 2 0 The bodies of two German hikers are found three weeks after they were abducted and shot to death.
2011.09.05 Afghanistan Qaisar 5 0 Sunni militants take out five civilians with a well-placed roadside bomb.
2011.09.05 Pakistan Humrang Beebak 2 0 Two brothers are abducted and murdered by Islamic terrorists.
2011.09.05 Nigeria Tatu 8 0 A Christian family of eight including the parents and six children are hacked to death by Muslim militants in their home.
2011.09.05 Thailand Pattani 2 1 Muslim prisoners target and murder two Buddhist inmates.
2011.09.05 Nigeria Dabwak 4 0 An elderly Christian couple and their two grandchildren are shot to death in their home by Muslim raiders.
2011.09.05 Iraq Kirkuk 2 0 Jihadis shoot a skilled neurologist to death along with his brother.
2011.09.04 Pakistan Mariamabad 1 0 A Catholic pilgrim is kidnapped and murdered while walking to a shrine.
2011.09.04 Afghanistan Kandahar 3 21 A Holy Warrior detonates in the prayer area of a security office, killing three others.
2011.09.04 Iran Ahvaz 3 0 Three people are hung for 'forbidden acts against religion'.
2011.09.04 Nigeria Zannari 1 0 Boko Haram Islamists assassinate a local scholar.
2011.09.04 Pakistan Godhra 5 7 Five people are killed when two rival Islamic groups work out their differences.
2011.09.04 Iraq Mosul 1 1 A man is shot to death in his home by Mujahideen.
2011.09.03 Yemen Aden 3 7 A Shahid suicide bomber kills three local cops.
2011.09.03 Kenya Madera 1 3 Somali Islamists are suspected of a bomb attack that leaves a Kenyan dead.
2011.09.02 Ingushetia Nesterovskaya 1 0 A local religious figure is shot to death by suspected Muslim militants.
2011.09.02 Iraq Baghdad 1 0 A government official is assassinated by Islamic terrorists.
2011.09.01 Pakistan Kurram 7 1 Seven Shias riding a minibus are machine-gunned to death by Sunni rivals.
2011.09.01 Pakistan Lakki Marwat 5 35 Five civilians are crushed under collapsing buildings during by a Fedayeen suicide car bombing.
2011.09.01 Dagestan Khasavyurt 1 3 Women are among the casualties of an Islamist car bombing.
2011.08.31 Iraq Baghdad 5 22 Five shoppers at a mall are taken down by Jihadi bombers.
2011.08.31 Pakistan Quetta 11 22 Children are among the victims of a Sunni suicide blast at a Shia mosque during worship.
2011.08.31 Ingushetia Nazran 2 0 Salafi bomber kill two people with a car bomb.
2011.08.30 Chechnya Grozny 9 22 Three suicide bombers detonate among bustling street crowd, killing nine.
2011.08.29 Israel Tel Aviv 0 8 A Palestinian shouting 'Allah Akbar' stabs eight nearby Israelis.
2011.08.29 Nigeria Jos 2 1 A pastor who preached religious tolerance is hacked to death by Islamic extremists along with his son at their church.
2011.08.29 Iraq Mosul 2 9 A Shahid suicide bomber sends two other souls to Allah.
2011.08.29 Iraq Baqubah 3 2 Three Iraqis are gunned down by Mujahideen.
2011.08.28 Yemen Dofas 17 45 Seventeen local soldiers die during the aftermath of an al-Qaeda ambush.
2011.08.28 Afghanistan Takhar 2 0 A doctor and medical worker are murdered by Taliban bombers.
2011.08.28 Pakistan Punjab 3 6 Sectarian Jihadis take down three rivals.
2011.08.28 Pakistan Faisalabad 0 1 A 64-year-old maid is beaten by madrassah students for hosting a Christian prayer meeting in her home.
2011.08.28 Iraq Baghdad 29 37 A Holy Warrior praises Allah before detonating at a Sunni mosque and laying out two dozen worshippers.
2011.08.28 Thailand Pattani 1 0 Muslim 'rebels' kill a plantation worker with a bomb.
2011.08.28 Iraq Salman Pak 1 4 'Insurgents' shoot a woman to death at a checkpoint.
2011.08.27 Pakistan Kohat 1 0 A retired man is abducted by Muslim radicals and executed.
2011.08.27 Iraq Baghdad 8 15 Sunni bombers take down eight Iraqis in three attacks.
2011.08.27 Pakistan Chitral 32 9 A massive Taliban assault across the border leaves dozens of secuity personnel and civilians dead.
2011.08.27 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 24-year-old civilian is shot to death by Muslim gunmen.
2011.08.27 Somalia Mogadishu 1 1 A woman dies from injuries suffered from an Islamic bomb attack.
2011.08.27 Afghanistan Kandahar 4 19 A suicide bomber manages to kill an Afghan child and three others.
2011.08.27 Afghanistan Lashkar Gah 4 21 Three children are among four civilians torn to shreds by a suicide bombing outside a bank.
2011.08.27 Iraq Fallujah 2 0 Two Sunni leaders are gunned down by Muslim rivals.
2011.08.27 Algeria Ataq 2 3 Two guards at an oil facility are shot to death by al-Qaeda militants.
2011.08.26 Afghanistan Herat 1 10 A woman is blown to bits by a Taliban bomb hidden in a handcart.
2011.08.26 Thailand Narathiwat 5 1 Five rescue workers are blown apart by a bomb placed under their car.
2011.08.26 Nigeria Abuja 23 68 Over two dozen people at a UN building housing humanitarian agencies are crushed to death by a suicide car bomber.
2011.08.26 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Muslim 'insurgents' shoot a Buddhist laborer to death.
2011.08.26 Algeria Cherchell 18 26 Two al-Qaeda suicide bombers murder eighteen soldiers and civilians following the break of daily Ramadan fasting.
2011.08.26 Somalia Mogadishu 2 0 Two young boys are beheaded by Islamic radicals.
2011.08.26 Norway Jaeren 0 1 A Christian convert from Islam is scalded with boiling water and acid at a refugee center.
2011.08.25 Pakistan Nowshera 12 17 A dozen people at a restaurant are sent to Allah by bombers who hid their device on a child's tricycle.
2011.08.25 Nigeria Gombi 16 12 Two banks and a police station are the target of 'Allah Akbar' screaming Islamsts, who leave at least sixteen innocents dead.
2011.08.25 Iraq Fallujah 9 34 A series of Jihad car bombings leaves at least nine dead.
2011.08.25 Thailand Yala 2 9 A 3-year-old girl and her father are shot to death by Holy Warriors.
2011.08.25 Iraq Basra 3 50 Holy Warriors detonate a car bomb outside a rival mosque, killing at least three.
2011.08.25 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 A 19-year-old man is beheaded by al-Shabaab.
2011.08.25 Iraq Jbela 3 1 Islamic militants fire on a vehicle, killing a boy, his father and an uncle.
2011.08.25 India Baramulla 2 15 Two people die from splinter injuries after an Islamist tosses a grenade into a market.
2011.08.24 Thailand Songkhla 2 0 Two security personnel die during an Islamist ambush.
2011.08.24 Iraq Diyala 5 9 A woman and child are among five innocents exterminated by Jihadi bombers.
2011.08.24 Afghanistan Paktia 3 9 Islamists send rockets into a market, taking out at least three patrons, including a child.
2011.08.24 Iraq Ramadi 6 8 A suicide car bomber takes out a half dozen Iraqis.
2011.08.24 India Avdesh 2 0 Two brothers are abducted and murdered by Hizb-ul-Mujahideen.
2011.08.24 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 60-year-old man is shot in the head by Muslim 'insurgents' while walking home.
2011.08.24 Iraq Ramadi 2 7 Sunni snipers fire on a car carrying civilians, killing two.
2011.08.24 Thailand Pattani 1 0 Mujahideen gun down a school guard.
2011.08.23 Afghanistan Balkh 2 3 Sunni radicals kill two cops with a roadside bomb.
2011.08.23 Thailand Pattani 2 14 Buddhist monks are among the casualties of two bombings that claim two lives.
2011.08.23 Algeria Taouarga 1 2 Fundamentalists machine-gun a local soldier to death at a checkpoint.
2011.08.23 Pakistan Datta Khel 1 0 The Taliban shoot a refugee to death.
2011.08.23 Yemen Abyan 8 28 Eight security personnel are killed during an al-Qaeda ambush.
2011.08.23 Nigeria Maiduguri 1 1 Boko Haram gunmen shoot a woman 7-months pregnant to death in her home.
2011.08.22 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A man is shot to death by Muslim terrorists while working a rubber plantation.
2011.08.22 Iraq Mosul 4 3 A car-bombing and separate shooting attack leave four Iraqis dead, including a teenager.
2011.08.22 India Handwara 1 1 A housewife is killed when Muslim terrorists open fire on security forces at a village.
2011.08.22 Pakistan Khyber 2 0 Tahreek-e-Taliban militants kidnap, bind and then shoot two rivals.
2011.08.22 Iraq Baqubah 2 0 A 3-year-old girl and her father are shot to death by Islamic 'insurgents' in their home.
2011.08.22 Afghanistan Gereshk 2 4 A child and a shopowner are successfully killed by Mujahideen bombers at a market.
2011.08.21 Yemen Moudia 4 0 Four people are torn to pieces by an al-Qaeda suicide bomber with a ball-bearing packed belt.
2011.08.21 Yemen Arqoup 9 20 Nine members of a tribal gathering are sent to Allah by a Shahid suicide bomber.
2011.08.21 Pakistan South Waziristan 3 6 Three defenders are killed during an assault by Islamic militants on their police post.
2011.08.21 Nigeria Riyom 6 0 Fulani raiders attack a Christian village, hacking six to death, including women and children.
2011.08.21 Afghanistan Helmand 1 0 Taliban gunmen assassinate a court official on his way to work.
2011.08.21 Dagestan Makhachkala 0 17 Children are among the casualties when Islamic 'separatists' set off two bombs at a grocery store.
2011.08.21 Nigeria Bajju 2 3 Suspected Muslim radicals shoot two Christians to death in their homes, including a 10-year-old boy.
2011.08.21 Afghanistan Trekh Zaber 1 0 Religious extremists murder a 60-year-old Afghan farmer in front of his sons.
2011.08.21 Thailand Yala 1 0 Islamic gunmen murder a 23-year-old man outside a shop.
2011.08.20 Afghanistan Kunar 2 0 Two Afghan soldiers returning home leave are stoned, hanged and shot by the Taliban.
2011.08.20 India Gurez 1 2 A local defender loses his life to an attack by Pakistani-backed militants.
2011.08.20 Israel Beersheba 1 8 Children are among the casualties when Hamas sends rockets into an Israeli town.
2011.08.20 Iraq Hadid 3 0 Three family members are killed by Mujahideen bombers.
2011.08.20 Nigeria Borno 4 0 Islamists burst into a home and murder four people watching television.
2011.08.20 Afghanistan Ghazni 3 2 Religious extremists take out three civilians with a roadside bomb.
2011.08.20 Afghanistan Herat 2 8 Two Afghan security personnel are killed by fundamentalist bombers.
2011.08.19 Israel Ashdod 0 10 Gaza militants send rockets into an Israeli seminary, injuring ten.
2011.08.19 Afghanistan Kabul 9 16 Two Holy Warriors detonate themselves in front of the British council, killing nine innocents.
2011.08.19 Pakistan Jamrud 56 123 A devout Shahid detonates a ball-bearing packed suicide vest at a crowded mosque, slaughtering over fifty others.
2011.08.19 Somalia Mogadishu 7 0 Seven youth are beheaded by al-Shabaab fundamentalists.
2011.08.19 Pakistan Kurram 3 3 A Taliban landmine takes out three locals.
2011.08.19 Thailand Pattani 2 0 Two Buddhist mattress salesmen, father and son, are shot in the head by Muslim 'activists'.
2011.08.18 Egypt Sinai 6 0 Terrorists fire on Egyptian police, killing six.
2011.08.18 Israel Eilat 8 30 Eight Israelis, including four family members, die when Arab snipers open fire on buses and cars.
2011.08.18 Afghanistan Gardez 2 0 A Shahid suicide bomber kills two guards trying to stop him.
2011.08.18 Ingushetia Nazran 1 0 Three Muslim extremists shoot a cop to death in his home.
2011.08.18 Afghanistan Herat 24 9 Seven children are among two dozen bus passengers torn to shreds by Taliban bombers.
2011.08.18 Pakistan Karachi 3 0 Three people are kidnapped, executed and dumped ouside a mosque in a suspected sectarian attack.
2011.08.18 Pakistan Quetta 1 0 A mosque official is gunned down by rivals.
2011.08.18 Pakistan Tirah 1 0 The Taliban behead a man for 'crimes against Islam'.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

Please show me a list of Christians killing/attacking innocents all over the world in the name of Christ ta back up the moral equivelince argument.

It was not the evil mooslums starting world wars, colonial empires etc resulting in the deaths of tens of millions................:thumbsup:

The Godless Commie/Masrxists have been the most productive in terms of murder/killing of humans as in absolute numbers or the percentage of Mankind, and most of that has been since 1917, BIG BILL.

[OldMercsRule]

I dunno what philosophy of Christ means- A term or convenience??

Hmmmmmmmm............ BIG BILL, I guess ya never heard this little ditty then:

" "Render unto Caesar…" is the beginning of a phrase attributed to Jesus in the synoptic gospels, which reads in full, “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (“Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ”) (Matthew 22:21).

This phrase has become a widely quoted summary of the relationship between Christianity and secular authority. The original message, coming in response to a question of whether it was lawful for Jews to pay taxes to Caesar, gives rise to multiple possible interpretations about under what circumstances it is desirable for the Christian to submit to earthly authority."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar...

@ no time, @ least IMHO did any of those nations act in a manner anywhere near the teaching of Christ-not even close…..

What nations?

So we are clear here, neither Islam or Christianity attacked anyone, ppl did. Kings & princess acting on their own behalf-PERIOD..

Hmmmmmm........ that's one way to moral equivelance eh? I specifically said in the name of their God, BIG BILL. That is the way to draw distinctions fer this debate. Otherwise humans fighting and killing humans have always happened so all things are equivelant.

Perhaps it was not by design, that is opinion…. But it was in fact so….. You mentioned Charlemagne I believe in your thread?? You recall the story of his crowning I assume.. While they did not always act in accordance w/ the pope or popes they notheless owned him something & on fear of excommunication…….

My reference to Charlemage was about the fact that he and his father, and many others stopped the advance of Islamo hordes advancing in France and drove them back.

Charlemagne was a conquer the same as the evil Muslims-ask any Saxon….

The Left can always seem to find and concentrate or emphasize the negatives within Western or later: American history.

Most leaders from the past used violence to advance their objectives.

I admit that human beings are violent and have a violent history. That said: I for one, (maybe the only one of a likely few on this forum), feel blessed that Charlemagne and other Christians from the middle ages stopped the conquest of Europe by Islamo hordes.

Wrong, Islam has not always been spread by the sword…… Did Muslim armies conquer Indonesia?? Malaysia?? NO!!!!

Most converted, & for mostly personal reasons such as MONEY!!!!!

This would be a possible exception where trade not violence spread Islam. The history of Indonesia, and specifically the introduction of Islam there is not well documented. Islam is very violent now in modern times within Indonesia, however.

Again I totally disagree…….. Islam is essentially holding the same land they have since the crusades, Christianity (supposed Christian nations) took over the rest of the world & they did so by force, & that is the state of the world pretty much to this very day..

Hmmmmmm......... Europeans colonized the world for reasources, not religion: BIG BILL. Nowhere can I find a teaching by Jesus Christ to follow that path. Christian missionaries usually are interested in speading the gospel, where Cortez may have been Christian, butt: gold n' plunder was what he really wanted.

I will agree that European powers were violent in the way they colonized, (as were Americans when North America was absorbed), butt: that is the aggresive nature of mankind not Jesus Christ.

I believe you are rewriting history regarding the reformation….. The crusades & the forces driving them had already begun to wane,

"Begun to wane", eh? LOL

The last crusade was over when last Christian post in Syria, fell in 1291 A.D.

Martin Luthur kick started the Reformation in 1517 and it was mostly over in 1648. How did I "rewright history"?

the reformation did not cause it..

Cause what? I claimed the Reformation "modernized Christianity". Do you dispute that?

There is no Caliphate now nor has there been one for quite some time, that would seem to undermine your own argument??

Why does that undermine my argument? Islam and Christianity are not morally equivilent. Islam is no "Religion of Peace". Islam is still stuck in the seventh century and Islamo Facists are angry over the Spanish Inquisition, (according to OBL and his bunch), bent on revenge against unbelievers and infidels.

I think now we have a general idea of how we view this but for sake of argument I think it would be best to focus on one aspect @ a time or perhaps one chunk of time, or a theme such as theocracy in Islam as opposed to in Christianity…..

Sound good??

Sounds good to me BIG BILL, butt: I tend to reply to posters in the direction they take the discussion. That makes it difficult not to have threads travel in a number of ways, expecially when discussing very old religions.

It is a pleasure to debate you, my friend.

[Darmosiel]

Please show me a list of Christians killing/attacking innocents all over the world in the name of Christ ta back up the moral equivelince argument.



You will need to scroll down the site to the area titled: Western Wars, Tyrants, Rebellions and Massacres (800-1700 CE) and click on links because the body counts are only estimates but it does cite actual events.
It stops at 1700 CE so I'm certain it doesn't include all the Jews killed during the 2nd WW by Hilter's team. He was a good Christian..right?

Moral equivalence:

http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm

[OldMercsRule]

You will need to scroll down the site to the area titled: Western Wars, Tyrants, Rebellions and Massacres (800-1700 CE) and click on links because the body counts are only estimates but it does cite actual events.
It stops at 1700 so I'm certain it doesn't include all the Jews killed during the 2nd WW by Hilter's team. He was a good Christin..right?

Hitler was a Godless Athiest. (As were Godless Commies Uncle Joe and Chairman Mao) who I'm sure you also think were bible thumping Christians). You need to hit the books Dear.

Did you get you secondary education from cracker jack U?

Moral equivalence:

http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm


I'm not gonna search for a list of Christians commiting murders bombings and acts of terror in the name of Jesus, because it doesn't exist, (in modern times).

If you think you can disprove my statement please produce the list as the linc you gave didn't.

[Darmosiel]

More modern estimates of Muslims killed in the last 30 years is estimated ay over 288,000.

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/11/30/why_they_hate_us_ii_how_many_muslims_has_the_us_ki lled_in_the_past_30_years

I realize most of these are from the war(s) but that is the point Bill was making. It's not religion per se that kills. It's people and generally politics and religion are oftentimes inter-meshed. Certainly historically it was.

[Darmosiel]

Hitler was a Godless Athiest. (

Not so. He considered himself a very good Christian and had connections to the Vatican.

Hitler's religious beliefs and fanaticism

(Selected quotes from Mein Kampf)

compiled by Jim Walker

Originated: 28 Nov. 1996
Additions made: 07 July 2001

People often make the claim that Adolph Hitler adhered to Atheism, Humanism or some ancient Nordic pagan mythology. None of these fanciful and wrong ideas hold. Although one of Hitler's henchmen, Alfred Rosenberg, did undertake a campaign of Nordic mythological propaganda, Hitler and most of his henchmen did not believe in it .

Many American books, television documentaries, and Sunday sermons that preach of Hitler's "evil" have eliminated Hitler's god for their Christian audiences, but one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler's God equals the same God of the Christian Bible. Hitler held many hysterical beliefs which not only include, God and Providence but also Fate, and ideological politics. He spoke, unashamedly, about God, fanaticism, idealism, dogma, and the power of propaganda. Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible's God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many have questioned Hitler's stand on Christianity. Although he fought against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various reasons; this does not necessarily make one against one's own Christian beliefs. Nor did the Vatican's Pope & bishops ever disown him; in fact they blessed him! As evidence to his claimed Christianity, he said:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)


I notice when someone proves you wrong you resort to insults and name calling. How childish. The only difference between the filth you posted as a serial vid on the Muslims in another thread and how Hitler looked at the Jews is it's a different religion.

[OldMercsRule]

More modern estimates of Muslims killed in the last 30 years is estimated ay over 288,000.

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/11/30/why_they_hate_us_ii_how_many_muslims_has_the_us_ki lled_in_the_past_30_years

I realize most of these are from the war(s) but that is the point Bill was making. It's not religion per se that kills. It's people and generally politics and religion are oftentimes inter-meshed. Certainly historically it was.

I don't find this worth a response. Sorry.

[OldMercsRule]

Not so. He considered himself a very good Christian and had connections to the Vatican.

Hitler's religious beliefs and fanaticism

(Selected quotes from Mein Kampf)

compiled by Jim Walker

Originated: 28 Nov. 1996
Additions made: 07 July 2001

People often make the claim that Adolph Hitler adhered to Atheism, Humanism or some ancient Nordic pagan mythology. None of these fanciful and wrong ideas hold. Although one of Hitler's henchmen, Alfred Rosenberg, did undertake a campaign of Nordic mythological propaganda, Hitler and most of his henchmen did not believe in it .

Many American books, television documentaries, and Sunday sermons that preach of Hitler's "evil" have eliminated Hitler's god for their Christian audiences, but one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler's God equals the same God of the Christian Bible. Hitler held many hysterical beliefs which not only include, God and Providence but also Fate, and ideological politics. He spoke, unashamedly, about God, fanaticism, idealism, dogma, and the power of propaganda. Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible's God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many have questioned Hitler's stand on Christianity. Although he fought against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various reasons; this does not necessarily make one against one's own Christian beliefs. Nor did the Vatican's Pope & bishops ever disown him; in fact they blessed him! As evidence to his claimed Christianity, he said:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)


I notice when someone proves you wrong you resort to insults and name calling. How childish.

I'm sorry, I don't find this worth any further reply. Carry on.

[Bill Cosby]

Excellent point. I suppose that's why many people do an auto turn off when Christians start talking. So many centuries of using Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) to justify war and death. Doing God's work. It was never the religion or even the original teachings of Jesus that killed anyone. It was always men using the banner of God.

The Crusades may have started out with a 'True" purpose in defense of Christian soil. But the Pope(s) used the crusades to their advantage. Send the thugs and zealots out to kill Muslims. Get them off the roads where they preyed on the working and farmers. Do you know that's how Sunday started?

.

I believe it is questionable....... I think @ best it could be said there was a dual purpose?? Remember the holy land had been in Muslim hands for a long time prior to the first crusade being preached & that was @ least in part a result of continuous requests from the east.....

I am sure some grabbed their pitchfork & followed their lord on foot to the holyland but I can't honestly that I believe most of the died for some higher purpose... :dunno:

[cottonbroker1]

thanks darm, bc and old merc for what you are putting into this thread....ive learned a lot from it so far....i dont want to inject questions and disturb the process as im simply taking it all in at this time but i did wanna say thanks for the education...

[Bill Cosby]

Hmmmmm........ In the last 100 years there have been a number of attacks all over the world in the name of Islam, by followers of Islam in the name of Allah.

Here is a list over the last month:

" List of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 1 Month

Date Country City Killed Injured Description
2011.09.17 Afghanistan Faryab 9 1 Five children are among nine civilians ripped to pieces by a Taliban bomb.
2011.09.16 Nigeria Maiduguri 1 0 Boko Haram radicals kill one of their own for holding peace talks.
2011.09.16 Thailand Yala 2 3 Islamists gun down two persons at a mosque.
2011.09.16 Thailand Narathiwat 4 118 Four tourists are killed in a 40-minute bombing spree by Islamic militants.
2011.09.15 Dagestan Kadar 1 0 Muslim radicals enter an imam's home and shoot him 57 times.
2011.09.15 Thailand Pattani 5 1 Islamists set off a landmine under a vehicle, then drag out five injured soldiers and shoot them in the head.
2011.09.15 Pakistan Lower Dir 45 62 A suicide bomber detonates in the middle of a packed funeral, killing at least forty-five mourners.
2011.09.14 Thailand Narathiwat 2 2 A Muslim soldier murders two Buddhists in a suicide attack.
2011.09.14 Iraq Ramadai 6 10 Six Iraqis at an airport are sent to Allah by Jihad bombers.
2011.09.14 Iraq Hillah 17 46 Seventeen people die in a car bomb blast outside a restaurant, including three children.
2011.09.14 Pakistan Tirah 1 0 Islamists behead a civilian.
2011.09.13 Pakistan Khyber 3 3 Three tribal elders are executed by radical Muslims.
2011.09.13 Pakistan Matani 5 19 Sunni militants blast a school bus full of children with machine-gun fire, killing four kids and the driver.
2011.09.13 Afghanistan Kabul 21 31 Over twenty people are killed when a wave of Fedayeen assault the US embassy.
2011.09.13 Iraq Taji 1 9 A Shahid suicide bomber kills a civilian.
2011.09.12 Indonesia Maluku 6 80 Six people are killed when machete-wielding Muslims attack a Christian village on a false rumor.
2011.09.12 Iraq Mosul 1 0 Mujahideen behead a man in his own home.
2011.09.12 Iraq Anbar 22 0 Sunnis stop a bus carrying Shiite pilgrims and and shoot twenty-two of them in the back of the head.
2011.09.12 Nigeria Misau 7 7 A suspected Boko Haram assault on a bank leaves seven dead.
2011.09.12 Nigeria Maiduguri 4 0 Boko Haram Islamists shoot two bar workers and two patrons.
2011.09.11 Afghanistan Wardak 5 94 Children are among the casualties when Fedayeen detonate a truck bomb.
2011.09.11 Iraq Baquba 1 7 A journalist at a cafe bleeds to death following a Mujahid bombing.
2011.09.11 Afghanistan Bermel 6 9 The Taliban take out six civilians, including two women, with a roadside bomb.
2011.09.11 Afghanistan Charkh 6 0 The bodies of six civilian contract workers are found five days after being abducted by Sunni militants.
2011.09.11 Afghanistan Gortepa 5 0 Three children are among five civilians disassembled by a homemade Sunni bomb.
2011.09.10 Nigeria Vwang 14 6 Fourteen Christian villagers from the same family, including a woman in labor, are hacked to death during a midnight Muslim raid.
2011.09.10 Afghanistan Ghazni 1 0 Religious radicals assassinate a police chief.
2011.09.09 Somalia Mogadishu 5 10 An al-Shabaab bomb left on the street sends five souls to Allah.
2011.09.09 Nigeria Kunsen Gashish 3 0 Three Protestant farmers are hacked to death by machete-wielding Muslims.
2011.09.09 Nigeria Barkin Ladi 9 0 A Christian father and his seven young children are among nine shot to death in a Fulani raid on their home.
2011.09.08 Afghanistan Sangin 7 5 A Shahid suicide bomber takes out seven Afghans with a nail-packed car bomb.
2011.09.08 Afghanistan Heart 3 0 Sunni bombers take down an engineer and two other employees at a construction company.
2011.09.07 Pakistan Quetta 26 80 Twin suicide bombers send over two dozen souls to Allah including a woman and three children.
2011.09.07 India New Delhi 15 89 Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami cadres use a suitcase bomb to murder fifteen others outside a packed courtroom.
2011.09.06 Nigeria Zakaleo 4 0 Four Christians are burned alive when militant Muslims set fire to their house.
2011.09.06 Thailand Narathiwat 2 5 A 9-year-old boy is among the victims of two attacks by Muslim gunmen, one at a teahouse.
2011.09.06 Thailand Yala 1 0 Islamists kill a 38-year-old Buddhist teacher, then set his body on fire.
2011.09.05 Pakistan Faisalabad 1 0 Islamic seminary students shoot an innocent member of the Ahmadi sect to death.
2011.09.05 Afghanistan Parwan 2 0 The bodies of two German hikers are found three weeks after they were abducted and shot to death.
2011.09.05 Afghanistan Qaisar 5 0 Sunni militants take out five civilians with a well-placed roadside bomb.
2011.09.05 Pakistan Humrang Beebak 2 0 Two brothers are abducted and murdered by Islamic terrorists.
2011.09.05 Nigeria Tatu 8 0 A Christian family of eight including the parents and six children are hacked to death by Muslim militants in their home.
2011.09.05 Thailand Pattani 2 1 Muslim prisoners target and murder two Buddhist inmates.
2011.09.05 Nigeria Dabwak 4 0 An elderly Christian couple and their two grandchildren are shot to death in their home by Muslim raiders.
2011.09.05 Iraq Kirkuk 2 0 Jihadis shoot a skilled neurologist to death along with his brother.
2011.09.04 Pakistan Mariamabad 1 0 A Catholic pilgrim is kidnapped and murdered while walking to a shrine.
2011.09.04 Afghanistan Kandahar 3 21 A Holy Warrior detonates in the prayer area of a security office, killing three others.
2011.09.04 Iran Ahvaz 3 0 Three people are hung for 'forbidden acts against religion'.
2011.09.04 Nigeria Zannari 1 0 Boko Haram Islamists assassinate a local scholar.
2011.09.04 Pakistan Godhra 5 7 Five people are killed when two rival Islamic groups work out their differences.
2011.09.04 Iraq Mosul 1 1 A man is shot to death in his home by Mujahideen.
2011.09.03 Yemen Aden 3 7 A Shahid suicide bomber kills three local cops.
2011.09.03 Kenya Madera 1 3 Somali Islamists are suspected of a bomb attack that leaves a Kenyan dead.
2011.09.02 Ingushetia Nesterovskaya 1 0 A local religious figure is shot to death by suspected Muslim militants.
2011.09.02 Iraq Baghdad 1 0 A government official is assassinated by Islamic terrorists.
2011.09.01 Pakistan Kurram 7 1 Seven Shias riding a minibus are machine-gunned to death by Sunni rivals.
2011.09.01 Pakistan Lakki Marwat 5 35 Five civilians are crushed under collapsing buildings during by a Fedayeen suicide car bombing.
2011.09.01 Dagestan Khasavyurt 1 3 Women are among the casualties of an Islamist car bombing.
2011.08.31 Iraq Baghdad 5 22 Five shoppers at a mall are taken down by Jihadi bombers.
2011.08.31 Pakistan Quetta 11 22 Children are among the victims of a Sunni suicide blast at a Shia mosque during worship.
2011.08.31 Ingushetia Nazran 2 0 Salafi bomber kill two people with a car bomb.
2011.08.30 Chechnya Grozny 9 22 Three suicide bombers detonate among bustling street crowd, killing nine.
2011.08.29 Israel Tel Aviv 0 8 A Palestinian shouting 'Allah Akbar' stabs eight nearby Israelis.
2011.08.29 Nigeria Jos 2 1 A pastor who preached religious tolerance is hacked to death by Islamic extremists along with his son at their church.
2011.08.29 Iraq Mosul 2 9 A Shahid suicide bomber sends two other souls to Allah.
2011.08.29 Iraq Baqubah 3 2 Three Iraqis are gunned down by Mujahideen.
2011.08.28 Yemen Dofas 17 45 Seventeen local soldiers die during the aftermath of an al-Qaeda ambush.
2011.08.28 Afghanistan Takhar 2 0 A doctor and medical worker are murdered by Taliban bombers.
2011.08.28 Pakistan Punjab 3 6 Sectarian Jihadis take down three rivals.
2011.08.28 Pakistan Faisalabad 0 1 A 64-year-old maid is beaten by madrassah students for hosting a Christian prayer meeting in her home.
2011.08.28 Iraq Baghdad 29 37 A Holy Warrior praises Allah before detonating at a Sunni mosque and laying out two dozen worshippers.
2011.08.28 Thailand Pattani 1 0 Muslim 'rebels' kill a plantation worker with a bomb.
2011.08.28 Iraq Salman Pak 1 4 'Insurgents' shoot a woman to death at a checkpoint.
2011.08.27 Pakistan Kohat 1 0 A retired man is abducted by Muslim radicals and executed.
2011.08.27 Iraq Baghdad 8 15 Sunni bombers take down eight Iraqis in three attacks.
2011.08.27 Pakistan Chitral 32 9 A massive Taliban assault across the border leaves dozens of secuity personnel and civilians dead.
2011.08.27 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 24-year-old civilian is shot to death by Muslim gunmen.
2011.08.27 Somalia Mogadishu 1 1 A woman dies from injuries suffered from an Islamic bomb attack.
2011.08.27 Afghanistan Kandahar 4 19 A suicide bomber manages to kill an Afghan child and three others.
2011.08.27 Afghanistan Lashkar Gah 4 21 Three children are among four civilians torn to shreds by a suicide bombing outside a bank.
2011.08.27 Iraq Fallujah 2 0 Two Sunni leaders are gunned down by Muslim rivals.
2011.08.27 Algeria Ataq 2 3 Two guards at an oil facility are shot to death by al-Qaeda militants.
2011.08.26 Afghanistan Herat 1 10 A woman is blown to bits by a Taliban bomb hidden in a handcart.
2011.08.26 Thailand Narathiwat 5 1 Five rescue workers are blown apart by a bomb placed under their car.
2011.08.26 Nigeria Abuja 23 68 Over two dozen people at a UN building housing humanitarian agencies are crushed to death by a suicide car bomber.
2011.08.26 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Muslim 'insurgents' shoot a Buddhist laborer to death.
2011.08.26 Algeria Cherchell 18 26 Two al-Qaeda suicide bombers murder eighteen soldiers and civilians following the break of daily Ramadan fasting.
2011.08.26 Somalia Mogadishu 2 0 Two young boys are beheaded by Islamic radicals.
2011.08.26 Norway Jaeren 0 1 A Christian convert from Islam is scalded with boiling water and acid at a refugee center.
2011.08.25 Pakistan Nowshera 12 17 A dozen people at a restaurant are sent to Allah by bombers who hid their device on a child's tricycle.
2011.08.25 Nigeria Gombi 16 12 Two banks and a police station are the target of 'Allah Akbar' screaming Islamsts, who leave at least sixteen innocents dead.
2011.08.25 Iraq Fallujah 9 34 A series of Jihad car bombings leaves at least nine dead.
2011.08.25 Thailand Yala 2 9 A 3-year-old girl and her father are shot to death by Holy Warriors.
2011.08.25 Iraq Basra 3 50 Holy Warriors detonate a car bomb outside a rival mosque, killing at least three.
2011.08.25 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 A 19-year-old man is beheaded by al-Shabaab.
2011.08.25 Iraq Jbela 3 1 Islamic militants fire on a vehicle, killing a boy, his father and an uncle.
2011.08.25 India Baramulla 2 15 Two people die from splinter injuries after an Islamist tosses a grenade into a market.
2011.08.24 Thailand Songkhla 2 0 Two security personnel die during an Islamist ambush.
2011.08.24 Iraq Diyala 5 9 A woman and child are among five innocents exterminated by Jihadi bombers.
2011.08.24 Afghanistan Paktia 3 9 Islamists send rockets into a market, taking out at least three patrons, including a child.
2011.08.24 Iraq Ramadi 6 8 A suicide car bomber takes out a half dozen Iraqis.
2011.08.24 India Avdesh 2 0 Two brothers are abducted and murdered by Hizb-ul-Mujahideen.
2011.08.24 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 60-year-old man is shot in the head by Muslim 'insurgents' while walking home.
2011.08.24 Iraq Ramadi 2 7 Sunni snipers fire on a car carrying civilians, killing two.
2011.08.24 Thailand Pattani 1 0 Mujahideen gun down a school guard.
2011.08.23 Afghanistan Balkh 2 3 Sunni radicals kill two cops with a roadside bomb.
2011.08.23 Thailand Pattani 2 14 Buddhist monks are among the casualties of two bombings that claim two lives.
2011.08.23 Algeria Taouarga 1 2 Fundamentalists machine-gun a local soldier to death at a checkpoint.
2011.08.23 Pakistan Datta Khel 1 0 The Taliban shoot a refugee to death.
2011.08.23 Yemen Abyan 8 28 Eight security personnel are killed during an al-Qaeda ambush.
2011.08.23 Nigeria Maiduguri 1 1 Boko Haram gunmen shoot a woman 7-months pregnant to death in her home.
2011.08.22 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A man is shot to death by Muslim terrorists while working a rubber plantation.
2011.08.22 Iraq Mosul 4 3 A car-bombing and separate shooting attack leave four Iraqis dead, including a teenager.
2011.08.22 India Handwara 1 1 A housewife is killed when Muslim terrorists open fire on security forces at a village.
2011.08.22 Pakistan Khyber 2 0 Tahreek-e-Taliban militants kidnap, bind and then shoot two rivals.
2011.08.22 Iraq Baqubah 2 0 A 3-year-old girl and her father are shot to death by Islamic 'insurgents' in their home.
2011.08.22 Afghanistan Gereshk 2 4 A child and a shopowner are successfully killed by Mujahideen bombers at a market.
2011.08.21 Yemen Moudia 4 0 Four people are torn to pieces by an al-Qaeda suicide bomber with a ball-bearing packed belt.
2011.08.21 Yemen Arqoup 9 20 Nine members of a tribal gathering are sent to Allah by a Shahid suicide bomber.
2011.08.21 Pakistan South Waziristan 3 6 Three defenders are killed during an assault by Islamic militants on their police post.
2011.08.21 Nigeria Riyom 6 0 Fulani raiders attack a Christian village, hacking six to death, including women and children.
2011.08.21 Afghanistan Helmand 1 0 Taliban gunmen assassinate a court official on his way to work.
2011.08.21 Dagestan Makhachkala 0 17 Children are among the casualties when Islamic 'separatists' set off two bombs at a grocery store.
2011.08.21 Nigeria Bajju 2 3 Suspected Muslim radicals shoot two Christians to death in their homes, including a 10-year-old boy.
2011.08.21 Afghanistan Trekh Zaber 1 0 Religious extremists murder a 60-year-old Afghan farmer in front of his sons.
2011.08.21 Thailand Yala 1 0 Islamic gunmen murder a 23-year-old man outside a shop.
2011.08.20 Afghanistan Kunar 2 0 Two Afghan soldiers returning home leave are stoned, hanged and shot by the Taliban.
2011.08.20 India Gurez 1 2 A local defender loses his life to an attack by Pakistani-backed militants.
2011.08.20 Israel Beersheba 1 8 Children are among the casualties when Hamas sends rockets into an Israeli town.
2011.08.20 Iraq Hadid 3 0 Three family members are killed by Mujahideen bombers.
2011.08.20 Nigeria Borno 4 0 Islamists burst into a home and murder four people watching television.
2011.08.20 Afghanistan Ghazni 3 2 Religious extremists take out three civilians with a roadside bomb.
2011.08.20 Afghanistan Herat 2 8 Two Afghan security personnel are killed by fundamentalist bombers.
2011.08.19 Israel Ashdod 0 10 Gaza militants send rockets into an Israeli seminary, injuring ten.
2011.08.19 Afghanistan Kabul 9 16 Two Holy Warriors detonate themselves in front of the British council, killing nine innocents.
2011.08.19 Pakistan Jamrud 56 123 A devout Shahid detonates a ball-bearing packed suicide vest at a crowded mosque, slaughtering over fifty others.
2011.08.19 Somalia Mogadishu 7 0 Seven youth are beheaded by al-Shabaab fundamentalists.
2011.08.19 Pakistan Kurram 3 3 A Taliban landmine takes out three locals.
2011.08.19 Thailand Pattani 2 0 Two Buddhist mattress salesmen, father and son, are shot in the head by Muslim 'activists'.
2011.08.18 Egypt Sinai 6 0 Terrorists fire on Egyptian police, killing six.
2011.08.18 Israel Eilat 8 30 Eight Israelis, including four family members, die when Arab snipers open fire on buses and cars.
2011.08.18 Afghanistan Gardez 2 0 A Shahid suicide bomber kills two guards trying to stop him.
2011.08.18 Ingushetia Nazran 1 0 Three Muslim extremists shoot a cop to death in his home.
2011.08.18 Afghanistan Herat 24 9 Seven children are among two dozen bus passengers torn to shreds by Taliban bombers.
2011.08.18 Pakistan Karachi 3 0 Three people are kidnapped, executed and dumped ouside a mosque in a suspected sectarian attack.
2011.08.18 Pakistan Quetta 1 0 A mosque official is gunned down by rivals.
2011.08.18 Pakistan Tirah 1 0 The Taliban behead a man for 'crimes against Islam'.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

Please show me a list of Christians killing/attacking innocents all over the world in the name of Christ ta back up the moral equivelince argument.



The Godless Commie/Masrxists have been the most productive in terms of murder/killing of humans as in absolute numbers or the percentage of Mankind, and most of that has been since 1917, BIG BILL.


I asked in my post- lets set some things up we wish to discuss, not toss shit out & see what sticks............ Also I am not interested in a cut & paste war, I don't waste my time w/ that........

I will say this- You add all the deaths up from that & see if they surpass the slave trade to the new world(the christian one), see if that total comes anywhere near the total of deaths & devastation in either of the world wars.......:thumbsup:

[Bill Cosby]

Hmmmmmmmm............ BIG BILL, I guess ya never heard this little ditty then:

" "Render unto Caesar…" is the beginning of a phrase attributed to Jesus in the synoptic gospels, which reads in full, “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (“Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ”) (Matthew 22:21).

This phrase has become a widely quoted summary of the relationship between Christianity and secular authority. The original message, coming in response to a question of whether it was lawful for Jews to pay taxes to Caesar, gives rise to multiple possible interpretations about under what circumstances it is desirable for the Christian to submit to earthly authority."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar...



What nations?



Hmmmmmm........ that's one way to moral equivelance eh? I specifically said in the name of their God, BIG BILL. That is the way to draw distinctions fer this debate. Otherwise humans fighting and killing humans have always happened so all things are equivelant.



My reference to Charlemage was about the fact that he and his father, and many others stopped the advance of Islamo hordes advancing in France and drove them back.



The Left can always seem to find and concentrate or emphasize the negatives within Western or later: American history.

Most leaders from the past used violence to advance their objectives.

I admit that human beings are violent and have a violent history. That said: I for one, (maybe the only one of a likely few on this forum), feel blessed that Charlemagne and other Christians from the middle ages stopped the conquest of Europe by Islamo hordes.



This would be a possible exception where trade not violence spread Islam. The history of Indonesia, and specifically the introduction of Islam there is not well documented. Islam is very violent now in modern times within Indonesia, however.



Hmmmmmm......... Europeans colonized the world for reasources, not religion: BIG BILL. Nowhere can I find a teaching by Jesus Christ to follow that path. Christian missionaries usually are interested in speading the gospel, where Cortez may have been Christian, butt: gold n' plunder was what he really wanted.

I will agree that European powers were violent in the way they colonized, (as were Americans when North America was absorbed), butt: that is the aggresive nature of mankind not Jesus Christ.



"Begun to wane", eh? LOL

The last crusade was over when last Christian post in Syria, fell in 1291 A.D.

Martin Luthur kick started the Reformation in 1517 and it was mostly over in 1648. How did I "rewright history"?



Cause what? I claimed the Reformation "modernized Christianity". Do you dispute that?



Why does that undermine my argument? Islam and Christianity are not morally equivilent. Islam is no "Religion of Peace". Islam is still stuck in the seventh century and Islamo Facists are angry over the Spanish Inquisition, (according to OBL and his bunch), bent on revenge against unbelievers and infidels.



Sounds good to me BIG BILL, butt: I tend to reply to posters in the direction they take the discussion. That makes it difficult not to have threads travel in a number of ways, expecially when discussing very old religions.

It is a pleasure to debate you, my friend.

You need to pick what you want to talk about- I have read the bible lots of times........... I was not planning on talking about theology, were you??

What nation?? NO nation has,,,,,,,,,,,

& that is all you said about him-& that is why I reminded you of his Saxons:thumbsup:

I never said it was christ-if you read what I said I said his followers-PERIOD I HAVE NEVER SAID OTHERWISE

Anyway you let me know specifically what you wish to discuss- I am not going to reply to any of this as I said........

[Bill Cosby]

You will need to scroll down the site to the area titled: Western Wars, Tyrants, Rebellions and Massacres (800-1700 CE) and click on links because the body counts are only estimates but it does cite actual events.
It stops at 1700 CE so I'm certain it doesn't include all the Jews killed during the 2nd WW by Hilter's team. He was a good Christian..right?

Moral equivalence:

http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm

I would say he was a nominal Catholic @ best, in his younger days but he got into lots of other shit & paid little lips service even to the church....

Since Napoleon most major wars were not fought about religion, although god was on everyone's side.....:o

As an example the second world war resulted in the deaths of well over 20 million ppl, many of whom were Christians & almost all were killed by ppl professing that same faith......... Period, that is not even debatable IMHO..

This moral relativism is a joke............ Islam has not killed 20+ million in the last 100 years if in 1,000............ It is the epitome of hypocrisy to point @ the crimes of the followers of Islam when the world is still soaking in the blood spilt by supposedly chiristian nations............:o :o

[OldMercsRule]

I asked in my post- lets set some things up we wish to discuss, not toss shit out & see what sticks............ Also I am not interested in a cut & paste war, I don't waste my time w/ that........

I will say this- You add all the deaths up from that & see if they surpass the slave trade to the new world(the christian one), see if that total comes anywhere near the total of deaths & devastation in either of the world wars.......:thumbsup:

That's how I read yer Challange: BIG BILL.

I corntend that modern post Reformation Christianity is not morally equivalent to modern Islam, butt: it is a complex debate covering 2000 years of Christianity and 1400 years of Islam.

You then asked me to name specific points of difference (which needed the historical origins n' methods of initial growth of the two religions), and you replied with a comment about world wars, ('Nations") n' such over the past 100 years.

I then replied with the 30 day toll of Islamo Facist attacks, to make a point that seems to have been lost on both you and Darmosiel, (and prolly most of the Christian hating members of this forum).

THE POINT IS: Every one of those attacks of innocent people were done by Muslims in the name of Allah within the last thirty days.

I could provide a similar list going back to 2001 in the same manor.

I do not accept the position that devout Christians, (or the religion of Christianity) are responsible for slavery. That was an economic issue, and Christians in England and here put a stop to it at a huge cost in lives in the 1860's.

I also don't accept what I think is yer position that "Nations" that colonized the Americas, Africa, Asia, Austrailia and ocean islands were doing that in the name of Jesus or for religious purposes. That also was an economic issue. The fact that the populations of many Euopean Countries were Christian or the respective Monarchs were Christian was not the determining factor in those past economic exploitations. They did it for economic power and resources, NOT JESUS.

The Muslims were initially defeated and their advance in Europe stopped by Charlemagne and his corntemporaries, or there likely would have been very little of Christianity that would have survived. The tactics used by those Christians were every bit as brutal as the Muslims of that period used, so at that time there was little difference in the violence of the two respective religions up to the end of the thirty year war in 1648.

Since that time Christianity has reverted to co-existing with modern States who have grown increasingly secular.

Neither World War was religious, and Darmosiel's corntention that Hitler was a bible thumping Christian killing 20-30 Million folks in the name of Christ isn't even worth comment.

[OldMercsRule]

You need to pick what you want to talk about- I have read the bible lots of times........... I was not planning on talking about theology, were you??

No, butt: I responded to this challange from you:

Originally Posted by Bill Cosby
I dunno what philosophy of Christ means- A term or convenience??

Which I think was yer reply to a portion of my earlier post that you highlighted in bold:

Christianity has never been a church state religion/political ideoligy by design as Islam, (submission), has been from the very start. That is the biggest difference between the two religions

I ment no insult, I was making a point of a profound primary philosophical difference in Islam (submission), and Christianity. That is why modern Christianity easily co-exists within Secular States where Islam does not.

What nation?? NO nation has,,,,,,,,,,,

& that is all you said about him-& that is why I reminded you of his Saxons:thumbsup:

I don't corncede any point to you BIG BILL. I have admitted both religions were very violent from the seventh to the seventeenth centuries. One was primarily advancing and one was defending and counter attacking.

I never said it was christ-if you read what I said I said his followers-PERIOD I HAVE NEVER SAID OTHERWISE

Christians can do bad things BIG BILL. They haven't done things in the name of Jesus for a long time. Muslims are killing in the name of Allah nearly every day.

Anyway you let me know specifically what you wish to discuss- I am not going to reply to any of this as I said........

We can leave this lay. I've made the points I wanted to make, and they speak fer themselves. I'm sure no-one has changed their mind, and that is the way things werk on political forums anyhooooo. I enjoyed the interplay. We shall have to agree to dissagree. I'd luv to have an adult beverage with you some day if we ever cross paths.

[Darmosiel]

I don't find this worth a response. Sorry.

No shocker there. When confronted with the proof you ask for you just deflect and ignore. If you are looking for an itemized list of names and exact time, the body count is too high to list here of those that have died at the hands of Christians all doing God's work.

[Darmosiel]

You need to pick what you want to talk about- I have read the bible lots of times........... I was not planning on talking about theology, were you??

What nation?? NO nation has,,,,,,,,,,,

& that is all you said about him-& that is why I reminded you of his Saxons:thumbsup:

I never said it was christ-if you read what I said I said his followers-PERIOD I HAVE NEVER SAID OTHERWISE

Anyway you let me know specifically what you wish to discuss- I am not going to reply to any of this as I said........

Agreed. I thought this was more of a historical thread rather than a theological one. It always seems to crumble down to the same arguments but... well, carry on.

[Darmosiel]

I would say he was a nominal Catholic @ best, in his younger days but he got into lots of other shit & paid little lips service even to the church....


Hitler wanted to become a priest when he was younger. In his book he uses the bible to justify his cause and the acts of genocide against the Jewish people and homosexuals. Of course the man was mad. Does it make any sense when leaders used religion to further their cause? Not to me. But it has happened time and time again throughout history. And now again.

I am certain there is much about the Muslim faith we do not understand. It is a completely different culture. Does that mean we as a nation should eradicate every culture from the face of the planet because we do not agree with it?

Does that mean there aren't any good Muslims? I find it not acceptable to paint all Muslims with the same brush because of what the radical fringe does. Just as I find it unacceptable to paint all Christians with the same brush because of the radical fringe.

We use God time and time again to murder. And it is somehow alright.

[Bill Cosby]

That's how I read yer Challange: BIG BILL.

I corntend that modern post Reformation Christianity is not morally equivalent to modern Islam, butt: it is a complex debate covering 2000 years of Christianity and 1400 years of Islam.

You then asked me to name specific points of difference (which needed the historical origins n' methods of initial growth of the two religions), and you replied with a comment about world wars, ('Nations") n' such over the past 100 years.

I then replied with the 30 day toll of Islamo Facist attacks, to make a point that seems to have been lost on both you and Darmosiel, (and prolly most of the Christian hating members of this forum).

THE POINT IS: Every one of those attacks of innocent people were done by Muslims in the name of Allah within the last thirty days.

I could provide a similar list going back to 2001 in the same manor.

I do not accept the position that devout Christians, (or the religion of Christianity) are responsible for slavery. That was an economic issue, and Christians in England and here put a stop to it at a huge cost in lives in the 1860's.

I also don't accept what I think is yer position that "Nations" that colonized the Americas, Africa, Asia, Austrailia and ocean islands were doing that in the name of Jesus or for religious purposes. That also was an economic issue. The fact that the populations of many Euopean Countries were Christian or the respective Monarchs were Christian was not the determining factor in those past economic exploitations. They did it for economic power and resources, NOT JESUS.

The Muslims were initially defeated and their advance in Europe stopped by Charlemagne and his corntemporaries, or there likely would have been very little of Christianity that would have survived. The tactics used by those Christians were every bit as brutal as the Muslims of that period used, so at that time there was little difference in the violence of the two respective religions up to the end of the thirty year war in 1648.

Since that time Christianity has reverted to co-existing with modern States who have grown increasingly secular.

Neither World War was religious, and Darmosiel's corntention that Hitler was a bible thumping Christian killing 20-30 Million folks in the name of Christ isn't even worth comment.

Cool.............

BuTT I think we need to have a topic, a specific issue to deal w/ not all over the lot like this.......

I see you are sincere & passionate about the issue which is great but dear brotha' I think we need to focus more on a one or two issues if we hope to have a rational discussion........

As I said, I am not interested in one sentence vs one sentence, there are plenty of others here that like that........

Since "Moral equivalence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_equivalence)" is so important, lets start there...:thumbsup:

Personally I never use this term or care much about it but I will say this.....

I see a couple different aspects in play here-one is the theology aspect- Christian good-Muslim bad... I am not interested in that debate although maybe we can engage that @ some time........

The other aspect is a practical one......... That is not based on professed beliefs & all that, but simply on actions........ So as far as I am concerned if a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu or Buddhist kill someone it is still killing someone, regardless of their theological justifications for doing so...

These actions are carried out by men, not gods, regardless of their claims.. Those actions IMHO must be judged on their merits, not "intentions".........

[Bill Cosby]

Agreed. I thought this was more of a historical thread rather than a theological one. It always seems to crumble down to the same arguments but... well, carry on.

One of the reasons I thought it best to put this in the blog zone as opposed to another is to focus on particular aspects & to discuss it, not argue...

I was specifically interested in having Big Dog discuss the issue as we have tapped on it many times.......

I am not opposed to discussing the theological aspects but as you noted it needs to be clear that is what the discussion is about.......... That was not my intent......

I think if what is good/moral etc can be defined (not theology) then this is rather simple- we just apply it to all sides & see how they acted......

I can kill in anyone's name-but it will be me, not they that go to jail for it..:thumbsup:

[Bill Cosby]

Hitler wanted to become a priest when he was younger. In his book he uses the bible to justify his cause and the acts of genocide against the Jewish people and homosexuals. Of course the man was mad. Does it make any sense when leaders used religion to further their cause? Not to me. But it has happened time and time again throughout history. And now again.

I am certain there is much about the Muslim faith we do not understand. It is a completely different culture. Does that mean we as a nation should eradicate every culture from the face of the planet because we do not agree with it?

Does that mean there aren't any good Muslims? I find it not acceptable to paint all Muslims with the same brush because of what the radical fringe does. Just as I find it unacceptable to paint all Christians with the same brush because of the radical fringe.

We use God time and time again to murder. And it is somehow alright.

Yes, but ppl change as they age.......... Pol Pot went to Buddhist school as a kid, but he killed as a atheist.........:thumbsup:

I think that "we use" is very important....... Men have acted horrendously towards each other in the name of their god........ But for their own enrichment, power, prestige etc........

Religion is & has been a very useful tool to manipulate men to act.... Religion, like rape etc stir emotions in ppl which over ride their common sense & perhaps their sense of decency etc...

[Darmosiel]

One of the reasons I thought it best to put this in the blog zone as opposed to another is to focus on particular aspects & to discuss it, not argue...

I was specifically interested in having Big Dog discuss the issue as we have tapped on it many times.......

I am not opposed to discussing the theological aspects but as you noted it needs to be clear that is what the discussion is about.......... That was not my intent......

I think if what is good/moral etc can be defined (not theology) then this is rather simple- we just apply it to all sides & see how they acted......

I can kill in anyone's name-but it will be me, not they that go to jail for it..:thumbsup:

I'm sorry I missed the previous thread on this topic. :( I can understand how some of the more seasoned posters don't want to cover the same ground. I get a lot more from people actually debating and discussing than the name calling. Kinda wish we could all be in a pub somewhere talking on these topics. It would be more civilized. :D Even though we all feel strongly and are good people it's far too easy to be rude and throw the topic off.

[OldMercsRule]

No shocker there. When confronted with the proof you ask for you just deflect and ignore. If you are looking for an itemized list of names and exact time, the body count is too high to list here of those that have died at the hands of Christians all doing God's work.


If yer education at cracker jack U didn't instil critical thinking skills I can't help ya Darlin'. :laugh:

No matter what Commie C & P from anti-American anti-Christian propagandists say, I have a knowledge of history, and the availibiliy of one engaged functional brain cell, which you seem to lack.

Hitler was no Christian, and that is well documented. He was an Athiest, (although not the same as classical Liberal modern Athiests) as he was an evil megalomaniac, (like Uncle Joe Stalin, a Godless Commie).

He believed in the superiority of the Aryan humans, (who he thought were the top o' the food chain).

Sorry, butt: truth is truth.

[OldMercsRule]

Cool.............

BuTT I think we need to have a topic, a specific issue to deal w/ not all over the lot like this.......

Methinks a subject, (thread title) that covers two millenia is gonna wander BIG BILL. Maybe it's that pesky functional brain cell of mine. :D

I see you are sincere & passionate about the issue which is great but dear brotha' I think we need to focus more on a one or two issues if we hope to have a rational discussion........

One issue in a 2000 year discussion of history and significant seventh century East mind set vs modern classical Liberal West mindset? I dunno how: BIG BILL. :confused:

As I said, I am not interested in one sentence vs one sentence, there are plenty of others here that like that........

I'm not usually a one sentance guy, (unless I'm pounding a nasty Lib or Cornservative troll): BIG BILL. :D

Since "Moral equivalence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_equivalence)" is so important, lets start there...:thumbsup:

That is what I've been debatin' re: Islam vs Christ.

Personally I never use this term or care much about it but I will say this.....

I see a couple different aspects in play here-one is the theology aspect- Christian good-Muslim bad... I am not interested in that debate although maybe we can engage that @ some time........

Not good Chrstian bad Muslim.... BIG BILL; negative Islam/submission, (that needs to be modernized by Muslims).... positive Christianity.

The other aspect is a practical one......... That is not based on professed beliefs & all that, but simply on actions........ So as far as I am concerned if a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu or Buddhist kill someone it is still killing someone, regardless of their theological justifications for doing so...

If their justifications are theological: THEN BURN 'EM DOWN, n' show 'em no quarter, as yer never gonna rehabilitate that kinda mindset, IM not so HO. Their God can sort out matters in the afterlife.

These actions are carried out by men, not gods, regardless of their claims.. Those actions IMHO must be judged on their merits, not "intentions".........

Intention is what is used to gauge the cornsequences of bad actions in our society: BIG BILL.

[Bill Cosby]

Are you talking to me or past me??

You talking to me or some other audience???

Define moral relevency as you understand it........ I said what I feel about it.......

Comparing the actions of men professing Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduesm or no ISM is the same w/ me.............

I don't care what their professed intentions are.....

[OldMercsRule]

Are you talking to me or past me??

Not tryin' too, butt: our styles of debate are very different. We both know history, (I many times don't even use google/bing), which is why my dates maybe a little upside down from time to time.

You talking to me or some other audience???

Both. I know others do read some of me carp. Many prolly have me on ignore. T-Puzzy luvs ta read me posts n' then cum in and nit pick me to death.

Define moral relevency as you understand it........ I said what I feel about it.......

Moral "relevency" is not terms, or term I have used: BIG BILL, (nor am I interested in using them).

Moral "equivalency" is the terms I have used, and is germane to the debate strategy you and others have used on this forum.

Rather then define these terms from scratch which entails over forty five years of a blame and hate Ameica (and Christianity) position used by the Left in this Country and Europe, (and would entail a lengthy post with histoirical examples n' such), let me offer a 2005 American Spectatar position piece that defines and gives examples of this decades old debate strategy of the Left:

"Moral Equivalence Rides Again
By Brandon Crocker on 6.14.05 @ 12:06AM

Left-wing modernity at its most consistent.
Back when I was in college in the 1980s, the American and European left propounded a belief known as "Moral Equivalence" which essentially said that America was every bit as bad as the Soviet Union. The argument ran something like: "Sure, Stalin, utilizing the powers of a totalitarian state, executed millions of his own citizens, but the United States interned Japanese-Americans during World War II; the Soviets enslaved eastern Europe, but the U.S. supported dictators like the Shah of Iran." The point was that the world was made up of two "morally equivalent" superpowers that were both doing nasty things (though somehow the Soviet's actions were more "understandable" or even "defensive") in a struggle for world domination and that America, the leader of the "so-called" Free World, had no moral standing to object to the Soviet empire.

Apparently, the doctrine of Moral Equivalence did not die along with the Soviet Union. The left has just substituted a new evil to which the United States is supposedly morally equivalent.

Senator Ted Kennedy showed himself in the forefront of this revival with his venomous spewing on Abu Ghraib. On the floor of the Senate Mr. Kennedy proclaimed: "Shamefully, we now learn that Saddam's torture chambers reopened under new management: U.S. management." Saddam filled mass graves with hundreds of thousands of people, and tortured (by which I mean raped, cut off hands and tongues, electrocuted, conducted beatings with steel rods) hundreds of thousands more. Obviously this is the moral equivalent of a handful of degenerate guards making naked Iraqi prisoners form human pyramids or wear underwear on their heads.

And now Amnesty International writes that the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay is "the gulag of our times." I wonder what that makes North Korea. At Amnesty International they still can't resist comparing the United States to the Soviet Union and in ways as ludicrous as ever. Amnesty International would have us believe that there is no difference between Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and an al-Qaeda fighter; no difference between sleep deprivation in order to get information from terrorists and hard labor, exposure to the deadly Siberian winters, and malnutrition to "reeducate" political dissidents.

In the old days, many leftists promoted "moral equivalence" not just because they disliked the capitalist United States but also because they sympathized with Soviet Communism. The new moral equivalence arguments are just as silly. Those who make them, however, do so not out of any sympathy for Saddam Hussein or militant Islam, but simply out of a dislike of the United States (or, in the case of Senator Kennedy, a dislike of George W. Bush and the belief that engaging in disgusting calumnies against the United States is perfectly "patriotic" as long as there is a Republican in the White House).

The new moral equivalency, however, does not just deal with the United States, per se, but with Christian Western Civilization as well. Robert Reich, for instance, has written several articles and a book (Reason: Why Liberals Will Win the Battle for America) expounding the idea that "[t]he great conflict of the 21st century will not be between the West and terrorism....The true battle will be between modern civilization and the anti-modernists; between those who believe in the primacy of the individual and those who believe that human beings owe their allegiance and identity to a higher authority;...between those who believe in science, reason, and logic and those who believe that truth is revealed through Scripture and religious dogma. Terrorism will disrupt and destroy lives. But terrorism itself is not the greatest danger we face."

Pope John Paul II, Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, Muqtada al-Sadr, Osama bin Laden -- all cut from the same cloth, so to speak.

This was the popular notion echoed by Ridley Scott in his film Kingdom of Heaven in which the real dangerous troublemakers in the world are the religious -- be they Christian or Muslim. Compare for instance the Christian world's reaction to Palestinian gunmen killing a caretaker and taking over the Church of the Nativity, and the Muslim world's reaction to false reports about a Koran being flushed down a toilet at Guantanamo Bay, or the Christian reaction to writers and filmmakers who produce works critical of Christianity and the Muslim reaction to a filmmaker like Theo Van Gogh or a writer like Salman Rushdie. Pretty much the same, right?

Well, not exactly. But that's what the left wants us to believe. Sure, we currently have a problem with radical Islam, but Christianity and Judaism, are really just as bad, just as dangerous. And the problems we are having with militant Islam should be reminding us that we need to be more frightened by Christianity, and particularly by Christians who think they have the right to cast votes based on their moral values. According to much of the left, we should regard anyone who has genuine religious convictions as a would-be member of the Taliban. Beware the coming theocracy headed by John Ashcroft and George W. Bush.

The tactic of arguing moral equivalence is to focus attention away from the obvious evil -- Soviet Communism or militant Islam -- and to refocus attention on the rather less obvious supposed evils of what the left sees as the more immediate impediment to the achievement of its goals -- America, with its heritage and value system that promotes capitalism and individual liberty, and Christianity which promotes an unacceptable moral code and the idea that there are things greater than the State.

The comparisons made by the proponents of moral equivalence have always been transparently absurd. Yet those that give voice to these arguments think their grotesque hyperbole is justified in order to make their point -- though they are often deceptive about what, exactly, that point is. But just as during the days of the Soviet empire, today's proponents of "moral equivalence" merely demonstrate their own moral -- and intellectual -- bankruptcy."

http://spectator.org/archives/2005/06/14/moral-equivalence-rides-again

I know ya don't like C & P BIG BILL, butt I thought this corncept was very well known in political circles. The Wiki cite, (I think you cited), is the concept from a Left point of view and I don't accept it as the Left defines it.

Darmosiel used this same tactic on this thread when she took the whacky position from internet C & P that Hitler was a Christian on the flimsy evidence of his childhood and political speeches in the early 1920's. Hitler as a pol looking fer support was just as disingenuous and deceitful as any pol can be. His speeches in the 1940s (when he was no longer looking for political support as he was the absolute power), show he hated both Christianity and Judaism.

If you accept Darmosiel's position, (which you don't seem to), then the deaths piled up under a devout Christian Hitler could be used to offset anything Islamo Facists do.

Even though you seem to reject that argument about Hitler, (as do I), you like to talk about "Nations" that have made war and the causalties from said war is somehow on the hands of Christians.

The fact is that Islam has had very little success for 500 years or so, (which is a bit of a surprize), if you look at the golden age of Islam where most advances in mathmatics, astronomy, medicine n' such were Islamic and Christians were bogged down in the middle/dark ages. Since Western nations have enjoyed significantly more success over the last 500 years, military disputes have been initiated and won by nations with Christian populations.

I still do not buy the Moral equivelancy with attacks on innocent cavilians by Islamo facists that take palce all over the world on a daily basis,

I also don't find unintentional civilian deaths in war morally equivenant to 9-11 either.

Comparing the actions of men professing Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduesm or no ISM is the same w/ me.............

I don't care what their professed intentions are.....

One of the major tenants of moral equivelency is to ignore intent BIG BILL. 9-11 was not an accident, (nor was it the US Gubmnet plot), as the majority on this forum seem to feel.

[Darmosiel]

Hitler was no Christian, and that is well documented. He was an Athiest, (although not the same as classical Liberal modern Athiests) as he was an evil megalomaniac, (like Uncle Joe Stalin, a Godless Commie).


No argument Hitler doesn't fit what you think of as Christan. Don't fret. It's not the first time a leader used religion as justification to kill and didn't really believe.

<snip from Wiki>

Public statements

In public statements, especially at the beginning of his rule, Hitler frequently spoke positively about the Christian German culture, and his belief in the "Aryan" Christ. In a proclamation to the German Nation February 1, 1933 Hitler stated, "The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."

Historian Joachim Fest wrote, "Hitler knew, through the constant invocation of the God the Lord (German: Herrgott) or of providence (German: Vorsehung), to make the impression of a godly way of thought."

He used his "ability to simulate, even to potentially critical Church leaders, an image of a leader keen to uphold and protect Christianity," according to biographer Ian Kershaw. Kershaw adds that Hitler's ability also succeeded in appeasing possible Church resistance to anti-Christian Nazi Party radicals.

For example, on March 23, 1933, he addressed the Reichstag: "The National Government regards the two Christian confessions (i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism) as factors essential to the soul of the German people. ... We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the German people."[14]

According to Hitler's chief architect Albert Speer, Hitler remained a formal member of the Catholic Church until his death, although it was Speer's opinion that "he had no real attachment to it." According to biographer John Toland, Hitler was still "a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite his detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within himself its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God — so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty."

However, Hitler's own words from Mein Kampf seem to conflict with the idea that his antisemitism was religiously motivated. From childhood onward, Hitler seems to have continued to reject antisemitism or anti-Judaism based on religious arguments like the deicide claim:

[Bill Cosby]

Not tryin' too, butt: our styles of debate are very different. We both know history, (I many times don't even use google/bing), which is why my dates maybe a little upside down from time to time.



Both. I know others do read some of me carp. Many prolly have me on ignore. T-Puzzy luvs ta read me posts n' then cum in and nit pick me to death.



Moral "relevency" is not terms, or term I have used: BIG BILL, (nor am I interested in using them).

Moral "equivalency" is the terms I have used, and is germane to the debate strategy you and others have used on this forum.

Rather then define these terms from scratch which entails over forty five years of a blame and hate Ameica (and Christianity) position used by the Left in this Country and Europe, (and would entail a lengthy post with histoirical examples n' such), let me offer a 2005 American Spectatar position piece that defines and gives examples of this decades old debate strategy of the Left:

"Moral Equivalence Rides Again
By Brandon Crocker on 6.14.05 @ 12:06AM

Left-wing modernity at its most consistent.
Back when I was in college in the 1980s, the American and European left propounded a belief known as "Moral Equivalence" which essentially said that America was every bit as bad as the Soviet Union. The argument ran something like: "Sure, Stalin, utilizing the powers of a totalitarian state, executed millions of his own citizens, but the United States interned Japanese-Americans during World War II; the Soviets enslaved eastern Europe, but the U.S. supported dictators like the Shah of Iran." The point was that the world was made up of two "morally equivalent" superpowers that were both doing nasty things (though somehow the Soviet's actions were more "understandable" or even "defensive") in a struggle for world domination and that America, the leader of the "so-called" Free World, had no moral standing to object to the Soviet empire.

Apparently, the doctrine of Moral Equivalence did not die along with the Soviet Union. The left has just substituted a new evil to which the United States is supposedly morally equivalent.

Senator Ted Kennedy showed himself in the forefront of this revival with his venomous spewing on Abu Ghraib. On the floor of the Senate Mr. Kennedy proclaimed: "Shamefully, we now learn that Saddam's torture chambers reopened under new management: U.S. management." Saddam filled mass graves with hundreds of thousands of people, and tortured (by which I mean raped, cut off hands and tongues, electrocuted, conducted beatings with steel rods) hundreds of thousands more. Obviously this is the moral equivalent of a handful of degenerate guards making naked Iraqi prisoners form human pyramids or wear underwear on their heads.

And now Amnesty International writes that the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay is "the gulag of our times." I wonder what that makes North Korea. At Amnesty International they still can't resist comparing the United States to the Soviet Union and in ways as ludicrous as ever. Amnesty International would have us believe that there is no difference between Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and an al-Qaeda fighter; no difference between sleep deprivation in order to get information from terrorists and hard labor, exposure to the deadly Siberian winters, and malnutrition to "reeducate" political dissidents.

In the old days, many leftists promoted "moral equivalence" not just because they disliked the capitalist United States but also because they sympathized with Soviet Communism. The new moral equivalence arguments are just as silly. Those who make them, however, do so not out of any sympathy for Saddam Hussein or militant Islam, but simply out of a dislike of the United States (or, in the case of Senator Kennedy, a dislike of George W. Bush and the belief that engaging in disgusting calumnies against the United States is perfectly "patriotic" as long as there is a Republican in the White House).

The new moral equivalency, however, does not just deal with the United States, per se, but with Christian Western Civilization as well. Robert Reich, for instance, has written several articles and a book (Reason: Why Liberals Will Win the Battle for America) expounding the idea that "[t]he great conflict of the 21st century will not be between the West and terrorism....The true battle will be between modern civilization and the anti-modernists; between those who believe in the primacy of the individual and those who believe that human beings owe their allegiance and identity to a higher authority;...between those who believe in science, reason, and logic and those who believe that truth is revealed through Scripture and religious dogma. Terrorism will disrupt and destroy lives. But terrorism itself is not the greatest danger we face."

Pope John Paul II, Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, Muqtada al-Sadr, Osama bin Laden -- all cut from the same cloth, so to speak.

This was the popular notion echoed by Ridley Scott in his film Kingdom of Heaven in which the real dangerous troublemakers in the world are the religious -- be they Christian or Muslim. Compare for instance the Christian world's reaction to Palestinian gunmen killing a caretaker and taking over the Church of the Nativity, and the Muslim world's reaction to false reports about a Koran being flushed down a toilet at Guantanamo Bay, or the Christian reaction to writers and filmmakers who produce works critical of Christianity and the Muslim reaction to a filmmaker like Theo Van Gogh or a writer like Salman Rushdie. Pretty much the same, right?

Well, not exactly. But that's what the left wants us to believe. Sure, we currently have a problem with radical Islam, but Christianity and Judaism, are really just as bad, just as dangerous. And the problems we are having with militant Islam should be reminding us that we need to be more frightened by Christianity, and particularly by Christians who think they have the right to cast votes based on their moral values. According to much of the left, we should regard anyone who has genuine religious convictions as a would-be member of the Taliban. Beware the coming theocracy headed by John Ashcroft and George W. Bush.

The tactic of arguing moral equivalence is to focus attention away from the obvious evil -- Soviet Communism or militant Islam -- and to refocus attention on the rather less obvious supposed evils of what the left sees as the more immediate impediment to the achievement of its goals -- America, with its heritage and value system that promotes capitalism and individual liberty, and Christianity which promotes an unacceptable moral code and the idea that there are things greater than the State.

The comparisons made by the proponents of moral equivalence have always been transparently absurd. Yet those that give voice to these arguments think their grotesque hyperbole is justified in order to make their point -- though they are often deceptive about what, exactly, that point is. But just as during the days of the Soviet empire, today's proponents of "moral equivalence" merely demonstrate their own moral -- and intellectual -- bankruptcy."

http://spectator.org/archives/2005/06/14/moral-equivalence-rides-again

I know ya don't like C & P BIG BILL, butt I thought this corncept was very well known in political circles. The Wiki cite, (I think you cited), is the concept from a Left point of view and I don't accept it as the Left defines it.

Darmosiel used this same tactic on this thread when she took the whacky position from internet C & P that Hitler was a Christian on the flimsy evidence of his childhood and political speeches in the early 1920's. Hitler as a pol looking fer support was just as disingenuous and deceitful as any pol can be. His speeches in the 1940s (when he was no longer looking for political support as he was the absolute power), show he hated both Christianity and Judaism.

If you accept Darmosiel's position, (which you don't seem to), then the deaths piled up under a devout Christian Hitler could be used to offset anything Islamo Facists do.

Even though you seem to reject that argument about Hitler, (as do I), you like to talk about "Nations" that have made war and the causalties from said war is somehow on the hands of Christians.

The fact is that Islam has had very little success for 500 years or so, (which is a bit of a surprize), if you look at the golden age of Islam where most advances in mathmatics, astronomy, medicine n' such were Islamic and Christians were bogged down in the middle/dark ages. Since Western nations have enjoyed significantly more success over the last 500 years, military disputes have been initiated and won by nations with Christian populations.

I still do not buy the Moral equivelancy with attacks on innocent cavilians by Islamo facists that take palce all over the world on a daily basis,

I also don't find unintentional civilian deaths in war morally equivenant to 9-11 either.



One of the major tenants of moral equivelency is to ignore intent BIG BILL. 9-11 was not an accident, (nor was it the US Gubmnet plot), as the majority on this forum seem to feel.

I don't ignore intent, I just don't care about what ppl profess their intent is.... They all have good ones you know, & you know what road those intentions will get you on.........:thumbsup:

So then I guess you/we have nothing further to carry on about here then....

Hopefully someone else more to our liking will come along.....

One of the greatest teachings IMHO & I am sure you will recognize it.........

If you can't see that I don't think you will find much to talk about regarding your faith or the actions taken in the name of it........

Noam Chomsky states that[3]
“ ... we adopt the principle of universality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_universalism): if an action is right (or wrong) for others, it is right (or wrong) for us. Those who do not rise to the minimal moral level of applying to themselves the standards they apply to others -- more stringent ones, in fact -- plainly cannot be taken seriously when they speak of appropriateness of response; or of right and wrong, good and evil.
In fact, one of the, maybe the most, elementary of moral principles is that of universality, that is, If something's right for me, it's right for you; if it's wrong for you, it's wrong for me. Any moral code that is even worth looking at has that at its core somehow.

[OldMercsRule]

No argument Hitler doesn't fit what you think of as Christan.

Darlin', how do ya know "what I think of" as a Christian? I may be a slow hillbilly with only one functional brain cell, butt: ya really can't read minds.

I actually am a Christian, (not much into organized religion, so I rarely go to church). That gives me an actual basis to understand what cornstitutes bein' a Christian.

Are you Christian?

Ya kinda sound a wee bit "new age" ta me, (n' I'm not tryin' ta insult ya).

Don't fret. It's not the first time a leader used religion as justification to kill and didn't really believe.


Hitler never used religion as a "justification to kill" EVER, he killed because of the "religion of the people" that he wanted to kill to purify the race of humans he had cornstructed in his screwed up brain, many of which were Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians as well as the Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

As a pol in the 1920s n' early 1930s he has many things in common with other pols: he will say what he thinks people like to hear to gain their support.

His anti Christian statements in the early 1940s and his actions from the mid 1930s on prove beyond any doubt if ya have any knowledge of history, that he was not a Christian, and was an Athiest who felt "Aryan" humans, (the Aryan stuff he talked about was also more then a wee bit whacky), were the top of the ol' food chain.

Christians believe in a higher power: Darlin', n' that's a fact.

Hitler did not acknowledge a higher power with actions (or werds) once he had power.

I'm not gonna debate this silly stuff anymore sorry.

You carry on now. ;)

[OldMercsRule]

I don't ignore intent, I just don't care about what ppl profess their intent is....

Hmmmmmm....... so yer an ace mind reader too? Shocking I tell ya.

I tend ta take OBL at face value when he claims his attacks are payback fer the Spanish Inquisition. Butt I know I can't read minds: BIG BILL, so I have no choice butt to believe a bad feller's own werds.

They all have good ones you know, & you know what road those intentions will get you on.........:thumbsup:

Nope, I don't please share. :)

So then I guess you/we have nothing further to carry on about here then....

Sniff..... sniff..... does that mean yer gonna put me on ignore or some such: BIG BILL? :D

Hopefully someone else more to our liking will come along.....

One of the greatest teachings IMHO & I am sure you will recognize it.........

If you can't see that I don't think you will find much to talk about regarding your faith or the actions taken in the name of it........

Noam Chomsky states that[3]
“ ... we adopt the principle of universality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_universalism): if an action is right (or wrong) for others, it is right (or wrong) for us. Those who do not rise to the minimal moral level of applying to themselves the standards they apply to others -- more stringent ones, in fact -- plainly cannot be taken seriously when they speak of appropriateness of response; or of right and wrong, good and evil.
In fact, one of the, maybe the most, elementary of moral principles is that of universality, that is, If something's right for me, it's right for you; if it's wrong for you, it's wrong for me. Any moral code that is even worth looking at has that at its core somehow.

Hmmmm...... Good ol' Noam Chomsky alrighty the Mother the whole club of hate n' blame America Lefties: BIG BILL..... How wonderful.

I know ya qoute that hairball quite a bit, so I assume you've read his books n' phamphlets n' such and will recognize some of these little quips from good ol' Noam.

This is from a speech just after 9-11: Noam Chomsky says:

"During these years [i.e., between 1812 and 1941], the U.S. annihilated the indigenous population (millions of people), conquered half of Mexico, intervened violently in the surrounding region, conquered Hawaii and the Philippines (killing hundreds of thousands of Filipinos), and in the past half century particularly, extended its resort to force throughout much of the world. The number of victims is colossal. For the first time, the guns have been directed the other way. That is a dramatic change."

Nice eh? Here is an earlier little gem ya gotta luv:

"the major policy goal of the U.S. has been to maximize repression and suffering in the countries that were devastated by our violence. The degree of the cruelty is quite astonishing."

Sweet eh? Here is an even earlier little morsel of luv:

"a 'secret army' under U.S.-Nazi auspices that sought to provide agents and military supplies to armies that had been established by Hitler and which were still operating inside the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe through the early 1950s."

MMM...mmm...mmm N' then there is this little ditti:

"the United States was picking up where the Nazis had left off."

Yowza: BIG BILL, ya gotta luv that guy!! Here is a reeeeeel sweet one:

"the pretext for Washington's terrorist wars [i.e., in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Guatemala, Iraq, etc.] was self-defense, the standard official justification for just about any monstrous act, even the Nazi Holocaust."

N' good ol' Noam is bipartisan feller too. A lot of these poisonous comments are about Democrat POTUSes Johnson and Kennedy. Here is another that'll make ya reeeeeeel proud:

"legally speaking, there's a very solid case for impeaching every American president since the Second World War. They've all been either outright war criminals or involved in serious war crimes."

Yesssssssireeeeeee sir that feller Chomsky really luvs anybody who is our enemy, eh: BIG BILL? N' ya gotta luv this toooooooo:

"Of course, the end of the Cold War brings its problems too. Notably, the technique for controlling the domestic population has to had to shift ... New enemies have to be invented. It becomes hard to disguise the fact that the real enemy has always been 'the poor who seek to plunder the rich' -- in particular, Third World miscreants who seek to break out of the service role."

Noam is such a sunny uplifting feller, eh? N' remember this little 1986 pamphlet?

"What Uncle Sam Really Wants":

"The people of the Third World need our sympathetic understanding and, much more than that, they need our help. We can provide them with a margin of survival by internal disruption in the United States. Whether they can succeed against the kind of brutality we impose on them depends in large part on what happens here."

Nice... I bet ya think I really like n' respect ol' Noam n' what he says eh: BIG BILL? NOT.

I think he is a clown of the first Order. Do ya think ol' Noam wants us ta nuke ourselves: BIG BILL? :p

http://www.salon.com/news/col/horo/2001/09/26/treason

[Bill Cosby]

Hmmmmmm....... so yer an ace mind reader too? Shocking I tell ya.

I tend ta take OBL at face value when he claims his attacks are payback fer the Spanish Inquisition. Butt I know I can't read minds: BIG BILL, so I have no choice butt to believe a bad feller's own werds.

I dunno why you keep telling everyone they think they are a mind reader... It might just be you & not everyone else......???

I never heard that OBL claimed any such thing......



Hmmmm...... Good ol' Noam Chomsky alrighty the Mother the whole club of hate n' blame America Lefties: BIG BILL..... How wonderful.

I know ya qoute that hairball quite a bit, so I assume you've read his books n' phamphlets n' such and will recognize some of these little quips from good ol' Noam.

This is from a speech just after 9-11: Noam Chomsky says:

"During these years [i.e., between 1812 and 1941], the U.S. annihilated the indigenous population (millions of people), conquered half of Mexico, intervened violently in the surrounding region, conquered Hawaii and the Philippines (killing hundreds of thousands of Filipinos), and in the past half century particularly, extended its resort to force throughout much of the world. The number of victims is colossal. For the first time, the guns have been directed the other way. That is a dramatic change."

Nice eh? Here is an earlier little gem ya gotta luv:

"the major policy goal of the U.S. has been to maximize repression and suffering in the countries that were devastated by our violence. The degree of the cruelty is quite astonishing."

Sweet eh? Here is an even earlier little morsel of luv:

"a 'secret army' under U.S.-Nazi auspices that sought to provide agents and military supplies to armies that had been established by Hitler and which were still operating inside the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe through the early 1950s."

MMM...mmm...mmm N' then there is this little ditti:

"the United States was picking up where the Nazis had left off."

Yowza: BIG BILL, ya gotta luv that guy!! Here is a reeeeeel sweet one:

"the pretext for Washington's terrorist wars [i.e., in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Guatemala, Iraq, etc.] was self-defense, the standard official justification for just about any monstrous act, even the Nazi Holocaust."

N' good ol' Noam is bipartisan feller too. A lot of these poisonous comments are about Democrat POTUSes Johnson and Kennedy. Here is another that'll make ya reeeeeeel proud:

"legally speaking, there's a very solid case for impeaching every American president since the Second World War. They've all been either outright war criminals or involved in serious war crimes."

Yesssssssireeeeeee sir that feller Chomsky really luvs anybody who is our enemy, eh: BIG BILL? N' ya gotta luv this toooooooo:

"Of course, the end of the Cold War brings its problems too. Notably, the technique for controlling the domestic population has to had to shift ... New enemies have to be invented. It becomes hard to disguise the fact that the real enemy has always been 'the poor who seek to plunder the rich' -- in particular, Third World miscreants who seek to break out of the service role."

Noam is such a sunny uplifting feller, eh? N' remember this little 1986 pamphlet?

"What Uncle Sam Really Wants":

"The people of the Third World need our sympathetic understanding and, much more than that, they need our help. We can provide them with a margin of survival by internal disruption in the United States. Whether they can succeed against the kind of brutality we impose on them depends in large part on what happens here."

Nice... I bet ya think I really like n' respect ol' Noam n' what he says eh: BIG BILL? NOT.

I think he is a clown of the first Order. Do ya think ol' Noam wants us ta nuke ourselves: BIG BILL? :p

http://www.salon.com/news/col/horo/2001/09/26/treason

WOW!!!! You missed that one didn't yea dear brotha'...............

That is simply do unto others as you would have them do unto you......... :banghead:

You have a problem w/ that???????????????

You can spend hours goggling attacks on Noam for that, it will not make your case.......

You have made a stipulation, one that I & most will not accept- that is you judge the actions of others differently than you do your own ppl-SelF-Proclaimed Christians......

I have already addressed the reason why............

So if @ some point you wish to consider the actions of all parties involved, not their "good intentions" then we will have something to talk about........

You have a fun day.........:thumbsup:

[OldMercsRule]

I dunno why you keep telling everyone they think they are a mind reader... It might just be you & not everyone else......???

Hmmmmmm........ What does it mean when ya think you can ignore someone's own werds n' devine their intent then? Remember what ya said: BIG BILL? (See below)

I don't ignore intent, I just don't care about what ppl profess their intent is....

Yer hero, (I assume due to the number of times ya quote him): ol' Noam; the mother of hate n' blame America..... does that very thing.... all the time, BIG BILL.

I never heard that OBL claimed any such thing......

Don't have a direct quote of OBL available butt: I have a quote from one of his henchmen:

A group said to be close to bin Laden's al-Qaeda, the Brigade of Abu Hafs al-Masri, sent a message to a London-based Arabic newspaper saying: "This is part of settling old accounts with Spain, the crusader and America's ally in its war against Islam."

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/000171.html

Yer a purdy informed dude: BIG BILL, I'm surprized ya never read that^^^^^^^^.

WOW!!!! You missed that one didn't yea dear brotha'...............

That is simply do unto others as you would have them do unto you.........

Nope, not at all, I didn't miss chit, BIG BILL.

I have read quite a bit of the mother of hate n' blame America BIG BILL. He is a real bright feller n' luvs ta twist classic rhetoric (even primary Christian philosophy) as part of his hate n' blame America Liberal/Progressive/Socialist/Commie/Statist termite propaganda that flavors the Commie Kool aid hate n' blame modern Liberals cornsume.

I do what I can ta understand why self loathing modern Liberals say what they say. Is Dr. Michael Weiner correct: BIG BILL? Is Liberalism a mental disorder? :D

BTW ya didn't reply to me challenge: BIG BILL; does ol' Noam think we should jus' Nuke ourselves? I've never seen positives about this Country cum from ol' Noam's writings, have you?

You have a problem w/ that???????????????

'Course not, you live n' breath Chomsky, n' as you pointed out: some of the folks on this forum who may not know Chomsky as well as you and I may gain some insight from the corntext that Noam cums from when he twists classic phrases n' primary Christian philosophy. N' when ya quote me they can see me comments even if I'm on ignore. :thumbsup:

You can spend hours goggling attacks on Noam for that, it will not make your case.......

Who says I spent hours BIG BILL? I knew David Horowitz's article was there as I remember readin' it n' thinkin' how spot on it was. Methinks I did use Google that time n' it may have taken .28 seconds or some such. (Sometimes me Comcast is kinda slow). :D

You have made a stipulation, one that I & most will not accept- that is you judge the actions of others differently than you do your own ppl-SelF-Proclaimed Christians......

Show me where I ever said that.
Ya really can't read the mind of a simpleton with only one functional brain cell, so I'd give it up, n' stick to readin' what people actually say n' then allign that with actions ya know about.

I don't accept Hitler as a Christian: BIG BILL, based on both his OWN werds n' his actions.

I have already addressed the reason why............

So if @ some point you wish to consider the actions of all parties involved, not their "good intentions" then we will have something to talk about........

I lack the mind readin' skills you n' Noam Chomsky think you have, so I'm limited to the werds of people that I can align with their known actions: BIG BILL.

You have a fun day.........

You too my friend! :thumbsup:

[Bill Cosby]

Why don't you show me all the times I quoted Chomsky on this or any board...

You said osama, now you wanna justify it w/ someone else & ask me why I didn't know it???:lmao2:

Look, I can't take you seriously if you wish to try petty stuff like that, that aint going to work w/ me.....

You ramble on all you like about Noam, I did notice you did not mention Jesus, the one I quoted about doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.......

I don't blame you though, I would not wanna quote/talk about what he said as someone might expect his followers to do the same, lest they be judged by the same measure they judge...........:disbelief:

Enjoy your day........:)

[OldMercsRule]

Why don't you show me all the times I quoted Chomsky on this or any board...

I only read yer posts here: BIG BILL. Ya quote the man fairly frequently, n here is a few I found off the top:

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showthread.php?t=23932&highlight=Noam+Chomsky

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showthread.php?t=21728&highlight=Noam+Chomsky

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showthread.php?t=21910&highlight=Noam+Chomsky

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showthread.php?t=20390&highlight=Noam+Chomsky

If ya weren't me friend I woulda said: 'yer not my momma': BIG BILL. :lmao2:

If ya think Noam is a big fat hate n' blame America clown of the first magnitude, (as I do), then I appologize fer miss-readin' what I took fer admiration on yer part.

You said osama, now you wanna justify it w/ someone else & ask me why I didn't know it???

I didn't bing the quote before I made the statement: BIG BILL. T-Puzzy catches me single functional brain cell farts from time to time as well. That was big news at the time if I recall correctly.

Look, I can't take you seriously if you wish to try petty stuff like that, that aint going to work w/ me.....

You don't have ta take me seriously if ya don't wanna BIG BILL, I'm a big boy.

You ramble on all you like about Noam, I did notice you did not mention Jesus, the one I quoted about doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.......

I thought "primary Christian philosophy" came from Jesus: BIG BILL, my=bad.

We have very different debate styles n' that can cause some miss-understanding.

I have assumed ya admired Noam Chomsky due ta quotin' him, (certianly more then once). ya coulda quoted Christ directly if that is the impression ya wanted made.

I don't blame you though, I would not wanna quote/talk about what he said as someone might expect his followers to do the same, lest they be judged by the same measure they judge...........

Glad ya don't blame me BIG BILL.

America is a secular state with a population majority of Christians.

This Country has never acted in a warlike manner in the name of CHRIST: BIG BILL.

I jus' don't buy yer moral equivelince argument where ya blame Christians fer the acts of sovereign nations. Sorry if it makes ya butt hurt n' all that stuff. :D

Enjoy your day........

You have a great day as well: me friend. :thumbsup:

[Bill Cosby]

4 posts > 23,751 on this board alone...... If I post about him a fraction of 1% it would be what exactly????

That is him in my avatar....... It originally had Howard Zinn there as well, another great man of truth & peace I respect..........

Did you wanna now make this about him???

Why not address what I quoted Jesus saying?? Shouldn't the good ppl do unto them bad ppl as they would have them bad ppl do to them???

Christian nations my ass....... NONE OF THEM HAS EVER ACTED IN SUCH A MANNER.......... Yet you wish to hold the evil nations of Islam to a higher standard than you are to your own.............:o

If you are not willing to do that, I have nothing further to discuss w/ you on it............

I judge the nations of Christiandom, Islam, communism or whatever exactly the same........... & it will be based solely on their actions, nothing more, nothing less-their professed good intentions are like banging gongs to my ears..

[OldMercsRule]

4 posts > 23,751 on this board alone...... If I post about him a fraction of 1% it would be what exactly????

BIG BILL....... yer an Internet friend of mine..... not my momma. Those four posts..... plus this one are all since May of 2011, and there could be many more in that period as I did a quick surface search. Did ya really think I went over all the 23,751 posts? I didn't.

That is him in my avatar....... It originally had Howard Zinn there as well, another great man of truth & peace I respect..........

Did you wanna now make this about him???

Why would I wanna talk about Zinn? I guess I was correct about hairball clown Chomsky bein' yer hero then eh: BIG BILL? :D

Why not address what I quoted Jesus saying??

Because ya didn't quote Christ, ya quoted Chomsky: BIG BILL.

Shouldn't the good ppl do unto them bad ppl as they would have them bad ppl do to them???

Yer gonna have to make a debatable point or statement: BIG BILL. I thought ya didn't like "one liners". I don't buy modern day Sovereign States, (NATIONS) bein' synonymous with Jesus Christ in any way shape or form. So if that is yer point, which you have stated more then once, please make it clear what you mean n' I will ponder if I wanna challange yer thoughts on the matter..... (not Zinn's or Chomsky's).

Christian nations my ass....... NONE OF THEM HAS EVER ACTED IN SUCH A MANNER.......... Yet you wish to hold the evil nations of Islam to a higher standard than you are to your own.............

What Islamic "Nations" did I say I wanted held to a higher standard? You see things I have never said: BIG BILL.

If you are not willing to do that, I have nothing further to discuss w/ you on it............

If you can't flesh out a debatable subject that I wish to partake in I'm not interested either: BIG BILL. I reject the moral equivienence of modern Islam and modern Christianity I hope that is real clear.

I judge the nations of Christiandom,

Please name them as I don't like to have to assume a debate with you. Yer position is not clear at all. I don't know of many modern Christian nations: BIG BILL. Please educate me as to who these evil players are.

Islam,

Please name these. Since Islam, (submission), is a political philosophy of world domination, and 24 x 7 corntrol of adherants, I may be able ta agree with yer list, butt: maybe not. Name the list BIG BILL.

communism or whatever exactly the same...........

I need a specific list BIG BILL. Our perceptions are likely 180 degrees apart.

& it will be based solely on their actions, nothing more, nothing less-

You also need to read the minds n' state their positions from such a mind read. I always pay attention to stated intentions and match same with their actions.

their professed good intentions are like banging gongs to my ears..

I don't want ya to have a gong in yer ears BIG BILL! :D

[Libertarian94]

If yer education at cracker jack U didn't instil critical thinking skills I can't help ya Darlin'.

Being literate is important when attempting to make a point; just a tip.

No matter what Commie C & P from anti-American anti-Christian propagandists say, I have a knowledge of history, and the availibiliy of one engaged functional brain cell, which you seem to lack.


Not a single brain cell more it seems...

Hitler was no Christian, and that is well documented. He was an Athiest, (although not the same as classical Liberal modern Athiests) as he was an evil megalomaniac, (like Uncle Joe Stalin, a Godless Commie).
You fail on two fronts Stalin's policies are inconsistent with true communism and no communism isn't any ideology you have been told to disagree with.

Secondly Hitler an Atheist?:lmao2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_mit_uns

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."
~Hitler, Mein Kampf

fail...

He believed in the superirity[sic] of the Arian[sic] humans, (who he thought were the top o' the food chain).

And?

Sorry, butt: truth is truth.

The truth is the truth but you wouldn't know the truth is if it came by and slapped you in face.

[OldMercsRule]

Being literate is important when attempting to make a point; just a tip.

Hit the books then dummy.

Not a single brain cell more it seems...

All I need to crush you dummy.

You fail on two fronts Stalin's policies are inconsistent with true communism and no communism isn't any ideology you have been told to disagree with.

What is "true" Communism, eh: fruit loop? Jus' what do you define as "true" Communism? Are you a Commie: fruit loop?

Secondly Hitler an Atheist?

Yuppers he surely was an Atheist alrighty. I kinda thought you Commie kool aid drinkers would take that up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_mit_uns

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."
~Hitler, Mein Kampf

fail...

Fail, eh: fruit loop? I guess you have never seen any pol lie. Here is what he said once he had absolute power:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:


National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:


Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:


The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:


The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:


Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:


Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)


14th December, 1941, midday:


Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:


There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:


It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

http://www.answers.org/apologetics/Hitquote.html

Christians don't cornsider themselves to be the top o' the food chain: fruit loop. Hitler n' his goofy Aryans cornsidered themselves the top n' acted accordingly.

You an Athiest: fruit loop?

And?

And what: fruit loop?

The truth is the truth but you wouldn't know the truth is if it came by and slapped you in face.

I know the truth: fruit loop; sorry you don't.



:lmao2: :banana: :happy: :yay:

[Bill Cosby]

I reject the moral equivienence of modern Islam and modern Christianity I hope that is real clear.




Then you can call it something else.......... No one that I know of is going to give you a by on this....... Actions result in consequences, regardless of their professed faith..

Anyway my friend you have a nice evening............:thumbsup:

[Darmosiel]

Not a single brain cell more it seems...



MERC is under the impression whatever Hitler my have said later in life pertaining to Christianity it somehow nullifies everything he said prior.

Typical denial approach.

[OldMercsRule]

Then you can call it something else..........

Nope: BIG BILL the two great religions are not morally equivelant.

The Roman State did adopt and pervert the Christian State religion, which became the only remaining Europe wide power after Rome fell.

Both religions used similar tactics as the Islamic hordes invaded the Middle East, Africa n' then Europe, butt: Martin Luthur started a 150 year reform of Chistianity, that cost lots of blood n' modernized my religion along the lines that the original Christians who were fed ta Roman lyons professed.

No one that I know of is going to give you a by on this.......

Not on a forum populated by Godless Liberal/Progressive/Socialist/Commie/ Statist termites that hate Christianity: BIG BILL.

Actions result in consequences, regardless of their professed faith..

Very true. When Islamo Facists knocked down a couple o' buildings it got our undivided attention, (fer a few weeks)....... anyhooooo.

If they nuke Seattle, or more likley Paris or London there is gonna be hell ta pay.

Anyway my friend you have a nice evening............:thumbsup:

You tooooooo BIG BILL! :thumbsup:

[OldMercsRule]

MERC is under the impression whatever Hitler my have said later in life pertaining to Christianity it somehow nullifies everything he said prior.

Typical denial approach.


No Darlin'. I understand what it means to be a Christian, and I also understand what pols do to gain power.

[Libertarian94]

Hit the books then dummy.

Clearly I am outmatched by your amazingly witty insults.



All I need to crush you dummy
First did you really just admit you only had a single functioning brain cell?Second really "dummy" is that the best you could do? I know kids in primary school that are more creative with their insults.


What is "true" Communism, eh: fruit loop? Jus' what do you define as "true" Communism?
What I define it as is irrelevant but here is the accepted definition.

"Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, and the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism


Are you a Commie: fruit loop?
Yes clarifying facts makes me a commie and a sugary breakfast cereal.. You got me.


Yuppers he surely was an Atheist alrighty. I kinda thought you Commie kool aid drinkers would take that up.

You do realize I pimp slapped that assertion

Fail, eh: fruit loop? I guess you have never seen any pol lie. Here is what he said once he had absolute power:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:


National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:


Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:


The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:


The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:


Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:


Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)


14th December, 1941, midday:


Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:


There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:


It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

http://www.answers.org/apologetics/Hitquote.html

Can you cite the primary source of any of this.

Christians don't cornsider themselves to be the top o' the food chain: fruit loop. Hitler n' his goofy Aryans cornsidered themselves the top n' acted accordingly.
You do realize Christians view themselves as being made in the image of a God right? You do realize Christian dogma placed us in the centre of the universe and arrested the man who suggested we were not. You do realize Christians view non-christians as base creature worthy of eternal torment.

You an Athiest: fruit loop?

Again with the cereal...

[OldMercsRule]

Clearly I am outmatched by your amazingly witty insults.

Yuppers, you are.

First did you really just admit you only had a single functioning brain cell?

Yuppers.

Second really "dummy" is that the best you could do?

I prolly coulda done more..... I like ta temper messef.

I know kids in primary school that are more creative with their insults.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the ol' shed.

What I define it as is irrelevant but here is the accepted definition.

"Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, and the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism



Accepted by who, the tooth fairy? Stateless me arse.... Yer wiki cite doesn't require stateless, dummy.

Yes clarifying facts makes me a commie and a sugary breakfast cereal.. You got me.

Fruit loop is yer nick name.... so ya are a Commie then.

You do realize I pimp slapped that assertion

Not even close, fruit loop.

Can you cite the primary source of any of this.

I cited the source I took it from.

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Secret-Conversations-1941-1944-Hitler/dp/B000CBOR6K

Yer local library may have a copy.

You do realize Christians view themselves as being made in the image of a God right?

So it says..... that make ya butt hurt or some such, fruit loop?

You do realize Christian dogma placed us in the centre of the universe and arrested the man who suggested we were not.

The Roman Cotholic Church has some not so good history. Does that make yer butt hurt even more?

You do realize Christians view non-christians as base creature worthy of eternal torment.

Not at all every soul is worth saving....

Again with the cereal...

That's yer nick name, fruit loop.



:lmao2: :banana: :happy: :yay:

[Bill Cosby]

This is the last book I read dealing w/ the crusades.... It is a bit dated but what the hell I am to.......:lmao2:

Has anyone else read it & care to "discuss it"????


Era of the Crusades
Taught By Professor Kenneth W. Harl, Ph.D., Yale University,
Tulane University
(http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/Course_Detail.aspx?cid=390)
Average Customer Rating: 4.4 out of 5
22 of 26(85%)customers would recommend the course to a friend.
Read reviews Write a review
Course Lecture Titles

36 Lectures
30 minutes / lecture

The Heirs of Rome (info)
Byzantine Orthodox Civilization (info)
Byzantine Zenith in the Macedonian Age (info)
The Failure of the Heirs of Basil II (info)
Abbasid Baghdad and Fatimid Egypt (info)
The Coming of the Seljuk Turks (info)
The Recovery of Western Europe (info)
Kings and Princes of Western Europe (info)
Warfare in Western Europe (info)
The Papacy and Religious Reform (info)
Piety and Pilgrimage (info)
Christian Offensives in Spain and Sicily (info)
Alexius I and the First Crusade (info)
From Clermont to Jerusalem (info)
Conquest and Defense of Outremer (info)
Frankish Settlement of Outremer (info)
Comnenian Emperors and Crusader Princes (info)
The Second Crusade (info)
The Empire at Bay (info)
The Rise of Saladin (info)
Byzantine Recovery under the Comnenians (info)
A Renaissance of Byzantine Letters and Arts (info)
Trade and Currency in the Mediterranean (info)
Cultural Exchange in Gothic Europe (info)
The Horns of Hattin (info)
The Third Crusade (info)
From Jerusalem to Constantinople (info)
The Sack of Constantinople (info)
The World of Frankish Greece (info)
Splinter Empires and Orthodox Princes (info)
Ayyubid Egypt and Seljuk Anatolia (info)
Crusader Cyprus and the Levant (info)
Venice and Genoa (info)
The Mongols and the Legend of Prester John (info)
The Royal Crusaders (info)
The Passing of the Crusades (info)
The Crusades have been hailed as the driving force that brought Western Europe out of the Middle Ages—and condemned as the beginning of European imperialism in the Muslim Near East.

But what really were the Crusades?

What were the forces that led to one of history’s most protracted and legendary periods of conflict? How did they affect the three great civilizations that participated in them? And, ultimately, why did they end and what did they accomplish?

A Crucial Chapter in the Story of Western Civilization

In The Era of the Crusades, Professor Kenneth W. Harl looks at the "big picture" of the Crusades as an ongoing period of conflict involving Western Christendom (we would now call it Western Europe), the Byzantine Empire, and the Muslim world. From this perspective, you will study the complex but absorbing causes of the Crusades, which include the many political, cultural, and economic changes in Western Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire.

In addition, Professor Harl presents the Crusades in terms of the specific military campaigns—the eight "canonical" Crusades that took place from 1095–1291—proclaimed to retake Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim hands and return them to Christendom. You will consider the immediate circumstances—the leaders, purposes, key battles, and degrees of success or failure—surrounding these often-monumental expeditions (they could number as many as 100,000 soldiers and religious pilgrims).

This course is an opportunity to appreciate fully how Western Civilization changed in many profound ways during the Crusading era. You will understand how the Byzantine Empire collapsed; how Western Europe began its rise to global political, economic, and cultural power; and how the Middle East became a majority Muslim world.

You will also explore a wide variety of misperceptions and long-debated questions about the Crusades. Did the popes preach the Crusades as a way to increase their personal power and authority? Were the Crusader armies made up of zealous and brutal religious fanatics or of highly disciplined soldiers—heirs to a sophisticated Western European military tradition? Why did the members of the Fourth Crusade decide to sack Constantinople, turning the Crusades from Christian against "infidel" to Christian against Christian?

An Era of Adventure, Chivalry, and Legend

This three-part, 36-lecture course is as sweeping in scope as were the Crusades themselves. Professor Harl delves into fascinating aspects of history, all related to the Crusades, that make each lecture a new adventure. These include advances in shipbuilding that were spurred by the Crusades, the types of weapons and military tactics used in battle, and the legend of "Prester John," a mysterious eastern king with whom the popes hoped to form an alliance against the Muslims.

You will appreciate the opulence of the "Queen of Cities," the Byzantine capital of Constantinople, a city that conveyed a sense of awe-inspiring ceremony and splendor to the Crusaders and other visitors. Attending Mass in the city’s cathedral, the Hagia Sophia (now a mosque), was said to be so stirring that a number of Russians converted to Christianity out of the simple conviction that God must dwell in such a magnificent church.

You will examine the organization and purpose of the Hospitallers and the Templars: the Knights of the Hospital and the Knights of the Temple. These "soldiers for Christ," a unique mixture of clergy and warrior, played an instrumental role in defending the Holy Land and in operating its banking system.

What makes the Crusades so attractive to study is that they are like a great novel. This is a time in history that is the source of many of our notions of adventure and chivalry and that is peopled with colorful and renowned figures. Those you will meet include:

Odo of Bayeux, a churchman who fought in the Crusades but still maintained his beliefs against shedding blood. Instead of a sword, he used a mace to simply hit his opponents in the head and give them a concussion.
Louis VII of France, the pious and monkish king who slept on a bare stone floor, worried constantly about his sins, and viewed the Second Crusade as a means to personal redemption.
Eleanor of Aquitane, one of the most brilliant and engaging women in history, whose adventuresome nature led her to join the Second Crusade, accompanied by a personal court that included maidens dressed as Amazons.
Saladin, the great Kurdish-Muslim conqueror whose victory at the Battle of Hattin in 1187 ended the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem. Through his gallantry and generosity toward his enemies, Saladin, a Muslim, ironically came to be seen as the epitome of Christian chivalry.
Richard the Lion-hearted, the son of Eleanor of Aquitane and heir to a family tradition of participation in Crusades. Considered "the perfect knight," handsome and with a fondness for gambling, jousting, and tournaments, Richard fought Saladin to a stalemate in a relationship of mutual respect and admiration.
A Masterful Teacher

Professor Harl’s presentation of this intricate story makes it easy to see why he has become one of The Teaching Company’s most popular professors. He seems to have all of the many facts about the Crusades at his fingertips, from key dates to royal lineages to how major battles played out.

Professor Harl has won eight teaching awards at Tulane, including the coveted Sheldon H. Hackney Award (twice voted by faculty and students). In addition, he was the Fall 2001 recipient of the prestigious nationwide Robert Foster Cherry Award for Great Teachers from Baylor University. Dr. Harl also teaches the popular Teaching Company courses Great Ancient Civilizations of Asia Minor and The World of Byzantium.

[Darmosiel]

I would... but I can't handle MERCs line by line responses. I've been avoiding this thread because he's camping in it.

:lmao2:

[Bill Cosby]

I would... but I can't handle MERCs line by line responses. I've been avoiding this thread because he's camping in it.

:lmao2:

He & Lib94 like that & can have fun w/ it...........

Have you read the book?? THoughts??

[OldMercsRule]

I would... but I can't handle MERCs line by line responses.

Yuppers it makes it more difficult ta spin n' weave silly modern Liberal blame n' hate horse poop when ya know there is gonna be some fire in the crushing replies from a Cornservative feller with an engaged brain cell eh: Darlin'? ;)

I've been avoiding this thread because he's camping in it.

Does that mean ya don't luv me Darlin'? I'm not too popular on this forum of termite blame n' hate circle jerkers..... sniff...... sniff...... :D

sigh..... OK I'll take a vacation fer a few days, maybe more..... so ya can say all the false silly chit ya wanna say without challange from me at least. :disbelief:

Carry on.... :p

[Bill Cosby]

Yuppers it makes it more difficult ta spin n' weave silly modern Liberal blame n' hate horse poop when ya know there is gonna be some fire in the crushing replies from a Cornservative feller with an engaged brain cell eh: Darlin'? ;)



Does that mean ya don't luv me Darlin'? I'm not too popular on this forum of termite blame n' hate circle jerkers..... sniff...... sniff...... :D

sigh..... OK I'll take a vacation fer a few days, maybe more..... so ya can say all the false silly chit ya wanna say without challange from me at least. :disbelief:

Carry on....

Lib 94 will miss you........:banghead:

we will miss you........

[Darmosiel]

[sigh..... OK I'll take a vacation fer a few days, maybe more..... so ya can say all the false silly chit ya wanna say without challange from me at least.

Carry on.... :p

No reason to get your feathers in a fluff. Some actually like to banter with you. Go figure. :disbelief:

[Libertarian94]

He & Lib94 like that & can have fun w/ it...........

Have you read the book?? THoughts??

Im done with it, I require a certain level of honesty and intellect for drawn out conversations. He has gotten a couple posts out of me I have no intention of giving him another.

[Darmosiel]

He & Lib94 like that & can have fun w/ it...........

Have you read the book?? THoughts??

I can't recall having read that specific book on the Crusades, or at least having browsed though it. Is there some particular point the book raises that makes you want to focus on that particular book or is it the one you happen to have on your book shelves?

Even if I had read it at some point in my life, my recall isn't that of a idiot savant that I would be able to quote page and line.

:confused:

[Bill Cosby]

I can't recall having read that specific book on the Crusades, or at least having browsed though it. Is there some particular point the book raises that makes you want to focus on that particular book or is it the one you happen to have on your book shelves?

Even if I had read it at some point in my life, my recall isn't that of a idiot savant that I would be able to quote page and line.

:confused:

I don't wish to focus on this book, but rather offer it as something to discuss related to the topic........

I like the book as it provided a unique (for me) perspective of these events, the political/theological background & as well the players involved......

Most that I have read previously was from a vantage point of the west/Christiandom or Arab/Islam..... His specialty is Byzantium...

If you even read the reviews of the book you instantly get a fresh sense of the events & some of the motivations behind them........

Also I found interesting the various relationships & the paradox........ Kinda like today...... You have "the great satan" as the protector of the mecca's self proclaimed royal family......

[Darmosiel]

I don't wish to focus on this book, but rather offer it as something to discuss related to the topic........

I like the book as it provided a unique (for me) perspective of these events, the political/theological background & as well the players involved......

Most that I have read previously was from a vantage point of the west/Christiandom or Arab/Islam..... His specialty is Byzantium...

If you even read the reviews of the book you instantly get a fresh sense of the events & some of the motivations behind them........

Also I found interesting the various relationships & the paradox........ Kinda like today...... You have "the great satan" as the protector of the mecca's self proclaimed royal family......

Hmm ok. I'll look for it next time I wander around Barnes and Noble. Always looking for new material. Thanks for the suggestion. :)

[Bill Cosby]

Hmm ok. I'll look for it next time I wander around Barnes and Noble. Always looking for new material. Thanks for the suggestion. :)

There are various reviews on it.... Also you could get the audio on like rapidshare to listen on your MP3 player....


Anyway, what do you see as the root causes of the crusades??

[Darmosiel]

There are various reviews on it.... Also you could get the audio on like rapidshare to listen on your MP3 player....


Anyway, what do you see as the root causes of the crusades??

Like most wars... there were political and religious causes/reasons. It would help to narrow down which wave... to identify exactly what was going on historically.

[Bill Cosby]

Well the Turks, (not Arabs) were making inroads in the east, encroaching on Byzantium controlled real estate & interfering in the tourist trade to the holy lands..... Also they allied themselves w/ the branch of Islam in Baghdad & against The Fatimid rulers of Egypt.......

So, like almost all wars I believe that it began for economic & political reasons, not religious..........

Most of those fools were more than willing to work against coreligionist if they believed it would further their own cause.........

[Darmosiel]

It's been a while since I've read this material. I'll need to brush up. Yes, political and economic trade routes were in play. There was also the hysterical religious fractions concerned with finding the 'True Cross" and other religious artifacts. The Grail Legend is based on this notion.

[Bill Cosby]

It's been a while since I've read this material. I'll need to brush up. Yes, political and economic trade routes were in play. There was also the hysterical religious fractions concerned with finding the 'True Cross" and other religious artifacts. The Grail Legend is based on this notion.

Yes, there was no shortage of wacky schemes & legends on all sides........

The Christians even assumed the Mongols were the legendary Pester John's ppl coming in to save Christianity from the evil guys.....:lmao2: :lmao2:

Toss in the black plague & fratricide & you got a real freaking mess......:lmao2:

[OldMercsRule]

No reason to get your feathers in a fluff.

Me feathers weren't in any fluff: I was givin' ya some space ta shine on this thread: Darlin'.....

Some actually like to banter with you. Go figure.

Hmmmmmmm........ ya think?


Not likely......

[OldMercsRule]

Im done with it, I require a certain level of honesty and intellect for drawn out conversations. He has gotten a couple posts out of me I have no intention of giving him another.

OH NOOOOOOOOOO not the ignore tactic........


That's what Liberal/Progressive/Socialist/Commie/Statist termites usually do when they get badly spanked by a feller with only one functional brain cell.




:lmao2: :banana: :happy: :yay:

[Bill Cosby]

Welcome back Merc............ Hope you enjoyed your vacation..........

The Turks were really a driving force before, during & after the crusades & are again exerting their influence in the region.........

You see any connection??

[OldMercsRule]

Welcome back Merc............ Hope you enjoyed your vacation..........

The Turks were really a driving force before, during & after the crusades & are again exerting their influence in the region.........

You see any connection??


Thanks BIG BILL, I did.

Not to this particular thread, unless ya jus' wanna get lost in their very cornplex and long and important, (to the whole world), history.

The Turks' rich history does in fact straddle the period we were discussing, and as you state their rich culture predates Christianity and the Roman/Byzantine empires and due to their ability to adapt to major historical developments, the birth and spread of Islam, invasion of the Mongols ta name a couple and to survive such, n' they ultimately were able to establish the greatest Eastern empire since the Persian Empires that lived up to the end of WW1.

I don't find it ironic that the Ottomans experimented with a cornstitutional form of republic (after the North American example), or that Turkey, (the modern country), is the only valid example of a modern secular state/republic in the Islamic world.

Many scholars have hoped that Islam could find a path to modernization through the Republic of Turkey's leadership, although the tide has turned against such path since 1979 and the emergence of the Islamic state of Iran.

The recent breach with Israel is a huge set back in Eastern/Western relations.

Methinks that you could start 10 or more threads to discuss the various aspects of this great culture, if there were such an interest.

[Bill Cosby]

Great. DO anything in or one the water??

I think this is good for the middle east-

They are rather western, Islamic, powerful w/ a rich history & providing another path other than that offered by the west & subservience to western/Israeli domination.....

This path can perhaps offer alternatives to western dominance that does not lead to radicalization.....

[OldMercsRule]

Great. DO anything in or one the water??

I didn't get this one BIG BILL ^^^^^; whatcha tryin' ta say? :D

I think this is good for the middle east-

Many people in the world would prolly rejoice if Israel went away. Ya like that idea?

They are rather western, Islamic, powerful w/ a rich history & providing another path other than that offered by the west & subservience to western/Israeli domination.....

Anything ta crush Israel n' the United States would make ya happy then: BIG BILL?

This path can perhaps offer alternatives to western dominance that does not lead to radicalization.....

I view the Western British/American world dominance as relatively benign: BIG BILL. I guess you would like ta experiment with some Islamo Facist dominance? I guess we could all have multiple wives n' such eh?

The Islamic factions within Turkey are getting much stronger over the last 30 years. Ya may get what ya wish for if ya don't look out.

[Bill Cosby]

I meant like sking, boating etc........

I think the ppl there need to accept Israel being there, & I think they do, but that is no reason to do many of the things they are doing....... One day the USA/west will not be there & this might come back to haunt them.......

SO I guess you are now calling the Turks IslamO fascist when a couple posts ago you seemed to be praising them.....

[OldMercsRule]

I meant like sking, boating etc........

OH..... I didn't take a real vacation: BIG BILL, (jus' gave you folks a break from the blue type).

I did go up ta RR island n' tinkered with me 25 hp Merc. I don't like the smaller more modern Mercs anymore, (I've had three of 'em). One of me 25 hp engines got ripped off earlier this year and I'm gonna buy a 25 hp Johnnyrude or a Yammadinger this winter.

Me inline6 Mercs run very sweet butt: those darn 25s don't seem nearly as reliable as me old 1974 25HP Johnson was, (wish I hadn't sold it).

I think the ppl there need to accept Israel being there, & I think they do, but that is no reason to do many of the things they are doing....... One day the USA/west will not be there & this might come back to haunt them.......

I don't think many with the Islamo Facist seventh century mindset accept Israel being there: BIG BILL. Bernard Lewis thinks that is up to 10% of the population, (a very big number). They seem to have greater influence on Islam, (which is ME politics as Islam is a political philosophy), since the Iranian change ol' Jimmy Carter helped to make happen.

SO I guess you are now calling the Turks IslamO fascist when a couple posts ago you seemed to be praising them.....

It is hard for any country with a majority of Muslims not to have some seventh century Islamo Facist influence BIG BILL.

I still view modern Turkey in very positive terms even though the last 30 years has seen them moving backward.

I do not view Turkey as Islamo Facist, (although the influence is clearly there), and the break with Israel over the floatilla plays into Islamo Facist hands. I hope they find a way to mend fences as those are the two best countries (from a human rights perspective) in the Middle East, IMHO.

Modernization of Islam is likely gonna be from within Turkey, (if it ever happens), IMHO.