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Yirmeyahu
11-02-2007, 10:00 AM
The Framework for Debate on Iran
Existing U.S. policy and its peaceful alternative
August 5, 2007

There is a very narrow and rigidly defined framework within which discussion of U.S. policy towards Iran is confined in political discourse and mainstream media. This framework effectively precludes the possibility that there could be a change of foreign policy which would produce more positive results than the present status quo, policies which at best are counterproductive and at worst could have disastrous consequences both for the U.S. and Iran, with repercussions that could extend throughout the Middle East. An alternative framework is possible, but it requires the dispensation of certain attitudes and myths and a reevaluation of the facts concerning U.S. policy towards Iran.

An article from the July 21 issue of The Economist provides a useful example for analysis in that it contains all the basic elements of the existing framework. The gist of it is by now a familiar story; Iran is ruled by unreasonable madmen intent upon constructing nuclear weapons to use against Israel and the only option, as discomforting and undesirable as it may be, is the use of military force to compel Iran to obey the rules set by the West.[1] The present framework is conducive towards that end while effectively precluding alternative courses of action.

Entitled "The riddle of Iran", the byline reads, "Iran's leaders think a nuclear weapon could rejuvenate their tired revolution. How can they be stopped?" No evidence is provided in the article to support the implication that Iran's leaders are intent upon acquiring a nuclear weapon or that they have voiced such a belief. This is merely assumed, or even attributable to "Iran's leaders" themselves, as though they had publicly declared their intention to acquire the bomb when in fact Iran's government has repeatedly reiterated that its nuclear program is intended only to produce energy.

The article opens with a quote from former Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu describing the Iranian government and then comments that "If he is right the world is teetering on the edge of a terrifying crisis." It's assumed his characterization of Iran as "basically a messianic apocalyptic cult" could be accurate, though Netanyahu's precise meaning is not expounded upon. This characterization of Iran's leaders as being essentially a bunch of crazies sets the tone for the article, and is another common element of framework. One corollary is that not only is Iran working on the bomb, but they would actually be irrational enough to use it.

The article next cites "Israel and some American experts" as predicting "that Iran may have a bomb by the end of 2009" and paraphrases Mohammed ElBaradei, director-general of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), as saying "that if Iran really wants a bomb it could now build one within three to eight years." This is told as though it were the most likely outcome with little to no indication that only a worst-case scenario is being offered. A 2005 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) put Iran at 2015 before being able to manufacture a nuclear weapon; it also regarded claims that Iran is working to do so as merely being credible while noting the lack of specific evidencing to support the assertion.[2] The International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) released a report shortly after which stated that Iran could produce enough material to produce a single weapon by the end of the decade only if we assume its leaders desired a weapon "as quickly as possible without regard for international reaction"—in other words, only if an unrestrained Iran were to defiantly and recklessly push forward at the increased risk of their program being detected).[3] Moreover, Mohammed ElBaradei has noted repeatedly that there is no evidence Iran has diverted nuclear material for weapons. As for the estimate given, this is apparently deduced from the fact that ElBaradei said a couple years ago that Iran was five to ten years from being able to make a bomb. [4] Assuming his projection of Iran's progress was correct, we may therefore attribute to ElBaradei the statement that Iran is now three to five years away. The only trouble is that a more recent 2007 estimate from ElBaradei still puts Iran "at least five to ten years away" from being able to develop a nuclear weapon—in other words, they haven't progressed at all towards that end since his previous worst-case estimate a few years ago.[5]

Another element of the framework is epitomized by The Economist's description of "What Iran is doing at Natanz"—enriching uranium in centrifuges—as being "entirely illegal" because its pronouncements that "its nuclear aims are peaceful" are "disbelieved" and the United Nations has thus ordered the enrichment to stop. A detailed analysis of the relevant UN and IAEA documents is instructive as to deciding the accuracy of this statement.

UN resolutions 1747 and 1737 both basically reiterate 1696, which begins by reaffirming the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and recalling the right of parties to that treaty "to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes without discrimination." The NPT states that "Nothing in this Treaty shall be interpreted as affecting the inalienable right of all the Parties to the Treaty to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes without discrimination and in conformity with Articles I and II of this Treaty", which state essentially that no party to the treaty shall proliferate nuclear weapons. 1696 was enacted under Article 40 of Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, which stipulates that the Security Council may "call upon the parties concerned to comply with such provisional measures as it deems necessary or desirable", but "without prejudice to the rights, claims, or position of the parties concerned."

1696's provisional measures are to call upon Iran to "take the steps required by the IAEA Board of Governors in its resolution GOV/2006/14, which are essential to build confidence" about Iran's intentions. In that document, the IAEA "Underlines that outstanding questions can best be resolved and confidence built in the exclusively peaceful nature of Iran's programme by Iran responding positively to the calls for confidence building measures which the Board has made on Iran and in this context deems it necessary for Iran to...re-establish full and sustained suspension of all enrichment-related and reprocessing activities including research and development...."[6]

This is a reference to Iran's previous suspension of nuclear-related activities under the Paris Agreement. It is commonly implied that Iran has a legal obligation to suspend nuclear activities under this agreement, such as former UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw's statement that "The Paris agreement...sets out very clearly that the suspension of conversion and uranium enrichment processing continues until there is a long term agreement under the Paris agreement."[7] In fact, the Paris Agreement "recognize[s] that this suspension is a voluntary confidence building measure and not a legal obligation."[8]

In short, the UN resolutions which are pointed to as evidence that Iran's continuation of nuclear-related activities is "illegal" are self-contradicting; acting under color of law they demand that Iran continue its voluntary suspension and that Iran surrender its right to continue with research and development while IAEA inspections are ongoing, while at the same time reaffirming that it is Iran's "inalienable right" under the NPT treaty to do so without prejudice. Therefore, the Security Council itself is technically in violation of its own resolutions, as well as the terms of the NPT Treaty and the UN Charter. Iran has not neglected to point this out.

Returning to the framework, it typically includes, as a corollary to all of the above, that there are only a very few possibilities. As The Economist puts it, "In one, Iran ends up with nuclear weapons, bringing new instability and a hair-trigger face-off with nuclear Israel into one of the world's least safe neighbourhoods. In another, America or Israel take pre-emptive military action and manage to stop it, even though such an attack would almost certainly have very dangerous consequences of its own. In the third ending, Iran is attacked, and enraged, and retaliates—and still ends up with a bomb anyway."

Of course, we can't do nothing. Therefore, our choice is clear. The existing framework thus leads logically only to one conclusion: even though it won't prevent Iran from developing a bomb we must bomb Iran despite the predicted consequence that this would likely expedite this presumed eventuality by pissing them off. In contrast to Iran's leaders, who are irrational enough to attempt to acquire a bomb under international scrutiny and the threat of violence and who would be just crazy enough to use the bomb and thus bring utter destruction upon itself, leaders in the US and Israel are wise enough to consider attacking Iran. Since this is the only logical course of action, "they are not mad." Iran's use of violence would be insane and evil while our use of violence would be rational and good (another truism of the existing framework).

The article points out further ostensible differences. Unlike Iraq, "there is no question of false intelligence: the world's fears are based on capabilities that Iran itself boasts about openly." So while the U.S. also accused Iraq of having weapons programs, despite not having any credible evidence to support the claim, and invaded upon that false pretense, the case of Iran is different because we know Iran is trying to build a bomb—and we may forget that we, of course, also said the same thing in the case of Iraq and therefore pretend that this is a difference, rather than a similarity, between the two cases.

So an attack on Iran is possible and logical despite being "a huge gamble" because it would further deteriorate "relations with the Muslim world" and because "Iran's leaders would almost certainly hit back" by striking at Israel or American forces in the region or by cutting off tanker traffic in the Gulf, "the world's oil windpipe." Given the likely consequences, it might seem crazy to attack Iran, but we must remember our leaders "are not mad". This forces us to ask the question, "How could any Western leader in his right mind risk initiating such a sequence of events?" Simple. Although "attacking Iran would be bad, an Iran with nuclear weapons would be worse." Once again, we see that, despite potential horrible consequences—including the likelihood that Iran "still ends up with the bomb anyway" (and without even any consideration for the human consequences, such as the death toll that would result)—since we can't very well just sit by and do nothing, bombing Iran is a perfectly reasonable option, and one considered by "most of America's presidential candidates". Actions which would otherwise easily fall under the definition of insane are thusly justified, simply by accepting as axioms that, one, any action is better than no action and, two, our only options are to either take no action or to bomb Iran.

Of course, no discussion of Iran would be complete, in the accepted framework, without mentioning that Iran's President, "the Holocaust-questioning Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, is widely reported to have threatened to 'wipe Israel off the map'." The Economist here strays from the conventional framework and actually acknowledges, albeit disingenuously, that "in fact he may never have uttered those precise words". There is some "ambiguity" about what he said, and he was "vague about whether he means that Iran should destroy Israel or just that he hopes for Israel's disappearance." The standard context applied when Ahmadinejad is quoted as having said those words is that Iran is intent upon building a nuclear bomb, crazy enough to use it, and has openly vowed to "wipe Israel of the map", taken as a virtual call for genocide. This is a radical alteration from the actual context from which the alleged quote was taken, which is neither vague nor ambiguous, as the writers and editors for The Economist must surely know, just as The New York Times defends its frequent use of the phrase while acknowledging that Ahmadinejad never said "Israel", but "occupying regime of Jerusalem", and that he actually used a metaphorical expression with an approximate meaning of "pages of time or history" and not literally "map".[9] The Middle East Media Research Institute translates him as saying, "This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history."[10] As to his intended meaning, the context of his actual speech makes it clear. He was discussing oppressive regimes and the need for the world to rid itself of them. He cited two other examples along with the illegal Israeli occupation: Saddam Hussein's Iraq and the Shah's Iran. His message is perfectly unambiguous: oppressive regimes such as these have got to go. There is nothing in the context of his speech to support the popular claim that his intended meaning was to threaten violence against Israel. This is, simply stated, a fabrication.



The possibility of an alternative to doing nothing or bombing Iran isn't completely dismissed. Occassionally within the framework there is room for questions like, "Is there a way to avoid all of the unhappy endings by finding a peaceful way to stop Iran going nuclear?" But the answer to such questions is invariably, "no". After all, explains The Economist, "The Europeans hoped they had stumbled on such a solution last year, when they at least talked Russia and China into imposing sanctions and George Bush into dangling the prospect of normal relations with Iran once enrichment stopped." However, "the mild sanctions imposed so far are not working" and "a third sanctions resolution, with sharper teeth, needs to be enacted without delay."

The formula isn't dissimilar to that used before the invasion of Iraq, when war was deemed not to be inevitable; all that had to occur for a peaceful alternative to be realized was for Iraq to admit weapons inspectors and surrender all its WMD for destruction. Iraq indeed admitted weapons inspectors, but its failure to surrender WMD it didn't have in the first place was judged to be a rational basis for committing a war of aggression, defined at Nuremberg as "the supreme international crime". Similarly, all that need occur for there to be an alternative to bombing Iran is for Iran to acquiesce to demands from the U.S. and other Western countries to renounce its rights under the NPT treaty to pursue research and development of its nuclear program while monitoring and verification of its application for peaceful purposes only is ongoing. Iran, however, has made clear that it will not be bullied and will not bow to threats of violence. Hence, when war becomes necessary, the only remaining course of action, it will be Iran's decision. Via this propaganda device, Iran will have to accept ultimate responsibility for having made the decision to have the U.S. and/or Israel to bomb Iran; the bombers are vindicated of all responsibility for their own actions and Iran bears total blame.

The corollary should be obvious. If the existing framework continues to dominate debate about Iran, there can only be one possible outcome. It's acknowledged that this outcome will be undesirable and counterproductive, but deemed necessary nonetheless because of the lack of alternatives. Alternatives are, however, possible, if we are willing to recognize certain truths, set aside certain assumptions, and dispense with certain falsehoods and misconceptions contained within the accepted framework.

We could, for instance, begin with the alternative assumptions that Iran's leaders are no more or less capable of rational thought than Western leaders, that there should be a burden of proof upon those seeking to justify a resort to violence, that violence and aggression by the U.S. would be just as wrong as violence and aggression by Iran, that the U.S. and other Western countries should, as they demand of Iran, meet their obligations under existing treaties to which they are party, and that there are alternatives to doing nothing or bombing Iran which would be in the best interests of everyone involved.

Present U.S. policy towards Iran, as was the policy towards Iraq, is designed to be self-fulfilling; the U.S. declares that Iran is a threat because it intends to build and perhaps to use nuclear weapons, so it then acts in ways predicted to increase the chances that this will occur. This is a common theme of U.S. foreign policy, just as it was the judgment of the intelligence community that Iraq would not likely use WMD against the U.S. (assuming it had WMD) unless it was attacked. In that case, as here, the U.S. acted not to mitigate the possibility of the very scenario used to justify violence but rather to choose the course which would result in the highest probability that the dreaded scenario will actually occur. The only logical explanation is that the policies do not exist for the claimed purpose of preventing violence but rather as a means to that very end.

The more threatened Iran feels by the U.S. and Israel, the more likely it will be that Iran's leaders truly to begin to feel that they require a nuclear deterrent to outside aggression. Iran is bordered by a nuclear-armed neighbor, Pakistan, which is likewise bordered by a nuclear India. Nuclear-armed U.S. and Israel have openly threatened violence against Iran. The more the U.S. and other Western nations continue to teach Iran the lesson that it's in their best interests to withdraw from the NPT treaty, the more likely it will be that Iran does so. Neither Israel nor Pakistan is party to the NPT treaty, yet the Bush administration lifted sanctions on Pakistan, offered "aid", and made it an ostensible "ally" in the so-called "war on terrorism". While threatening sanctions and even violence against Iran for not being able to prove that its nuclear program is not intended for military purposes, Israel, which has long had a nuclear arsenal and which has long been in defiance of numerous Security Council resolutions, is rewarded with significant financial and military support. The lesson is that Iran is being punished for being a member of the NPT treaty, so the only natural and logical course of action for Iran will be to withdraw from the treaty, which would in turn mean the end of oversight and scrutiny of Iran's nuclear program. This end result of present policies would then be used to ex post facto justify the execution of those same policies to begin with, just as occurred in the case of Iraq.

As with Iraq, the issue is not about weapons of mass destruction or failed obligations under existing treaties, but about ensuring U.S. credibility in its pursuit of global hegemony. There is one rule, which is that the U.S. makes the rules, which the U.S. will enforce under threat of violence. As was the case with Iraq, adherence to international law is not a purpose the present policy towards Iran is intended to ensure, but rather an obstacle to be overcome in its implementation. And as the invasion of Iraq has proved, as predicted, to be catastrophic not only in terms of the human consequences, but in strategic terms as well, so will any violence against Iran have considerable and well recognized catastrophic consequences. The tragic consequences of our present course of action are predictable. They are also avoidable, but only if we discard the existing framework for discussion and adopt a framework more conducive to reason and to achieving the stated policy objective of ensuring peace and stability in the world.

-----------------

[1] "The riddle of Iran", The Economist, July 21-27, 2007

[2] Dafna Linzer, "Iran Is Judged 10 Years From Nuclear Bomb", The Washington Post, August 2, 2005; A01
[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/01/AR2005080101453_pf.html[/url]

[3] Dr. John Chipman, "Iran's Strategic Weapons Programmes", International Institute for Strategic Studies (Press Statement), September 6, 2005
[url]http://www.iiss.org/publications/strategic-dossiers/irans-strategic-weapons-programmes[/url]

Sarah Buckley and Paul Rincon, "Iran' years from nuclear bomb'", BBC, January 12, 2006
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4606356.stm[/url]

[4] "No Evidence Iran Diverted Nuclear Materials: IAEA", UN Radio, November 15, 2004
[url]http://www.un.org/radio/story.asp?NewsID=888[/url]

John Diamond, "U.S. intelligence agencies say Iran is years away from building nukes", USA Today, April 13, 2006
[url]http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-04-14-iran-nukes_x.htm[/url]

"Iran bomb is 10 years away, says ElBaradei", Agence France Presse, February 21, 2007
[url]http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/iran-bomb-is-10-years-away-says-elbaradei/2007/02/20/1171733763563.html[/url]

[5] Daniel Dombey, "FT interview: Mohamed El Baradei", February 19, 2007
[url]http://www.ft.com/cms/s/d229a13c-c056-11db-995a-000b5df10621.html[/url]

[6] UN Resolution 1696, July 31, 2006

UN Resolution 1737, December 23, 2006
[url]http://www.un.org/Docs/sc/unsc_resolutions06.htm[/url]

UN Resolution 1747, March 24, 2007
[url]http://www.un.org/Docs/sc/unsc_resolutions07.htm[/url]

Charter of the United Nations
[url]http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/index.html[/url]

Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty
[url]http://www.un.org/events/npt2005/npttreaty.html[/url]

IAEA Res GOV/2006/13, "Implementation of the NPT Safeguards Agreement in the Islamic Republic of Iran", February 4, 2006
[url]http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Board/2006/gov2006-14.pdf[/url]

[7] "Iran in new nuclear arms pledge", BBC, May 25, 2005
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4577877.stm[/url]

[8] "Paris Agreement" between the Islamic Republic of Iran and France, Germany and the United Kingdom, with the support of the High Representative of the European Union
[url]http://www.armscontrol.org/country/iran/ParisAgreement.asp[/url]

[9] Ehtan Bronner, "Just How Far Did They Go, Those Words Against Israel?", The New York Times, June 11, 2006
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/weekinreview/[/url]
11bronner.html?ex=1307678400&en=efa2bd266224e880&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[10] This is the translation provided by The Middle East Media Research Institute
[url]http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP101305[/url]

LadyMod at scam.com
11-02-2007, 10:28 AM
Wow, that's great Yirme. I'll have to read that a couple more times to take in all of it. But so true.

There is one rule, which is that the U.S. makes the rules, which the U.S. will enforce under threat of violence.

And so shameful.

Lady Mod

Yirmeyahu
11-02-2007, 11:52 AM
Thanks, LadyMod.

Moby
11-02-2007, 01:03 PM
Interesting and thoughtful read. When you mention The Economist, stating that Ahmadinejad may never have claimed that we must wipe Israel off the map is interesting. I remember the speech that was repeated a number of times. I have two friends that speak Farsi and both claims that he said something about them needed to leave the home land but nothing about wiping off the planet.

I don't speak Farsi myself so I have no clue what he actually said.

Yirmeyahu
11-02-2007, 11:48 PM
Yeah, a number of observers have pointed out that he never said that, that it is a poor translation into an idiom of our own with a connotation of violence from a Farsi idiom. Juan Cole and others knowledgable in Farsi have made this known since it was first reported.

As I pointed out in my article, the major media are well aware of the fabrication. The NYT defends their use of "wipe Israel off the map" while at the same time acknowledging that he didn't really ever say that.

moonman
11-03-2007, 03:12 AM
Excellant start Yirmeyahu. I would be interested your analysis of Iran's pivotal role among the 4 not-so-super-power econoimc blocs represented by the USA, Russia, China & Europe.

Additionally, from Iran's perspective, we performed 'Shock & Awe" on Iraq that didn't have nukes but we are negotiating with North Korea that does have nukes. Isn't our behavior actually encouraging Iran to view developing nukes as means of forcing us to negotiate?

Smurf-Herder
11-03-2007, 03:16 AM
Yeah, a number of observers have pointed out that he never said that, that it is a poor translation into an idiom of our own with a connotation of violence from a Farsi idiom. Juan Cole and others knowledgable in Farsi have made this known since it was first reported.

As I pointed out in my article, the major media are well aware of the fabrication. The NYT defends their use of "wipe Israel off the map" while at the same time acknowledging that he didn't really ever say that.

I thought it was said - because he was repeating what Ayatollah Komeini said back in 1979. And that's what Khomeini said. He certainly says enoug about israel being destroyed soon. You seem to be concentrating on one speech - out of the dozens he's given over the last two years, where he talks of the US and Israel's demise.

Yirmeyahu
11-03-2007, 04:38 AM
Excellant start Yirmeyahu. I would be interested your analysis of Iran's pivotal role among the 4 not-so-super-power econoimc blocs represented by the USA, Russia, China & Europe.

Thanks. I think Iran is making an effort at not becoming involved in any one "bloc" at all. They are really striving or independence, particularly in the area of energy. I think Iran would love to open relations with the West, but not so long as the US continues with its present policy (understandably so).

Additionally, from Iran's perspective, we performed 'Shock & Awe" on Iraq that didn't have nukes but we are negotiating with North Korea that does have nukes. Isn't our behavior actually encouraging Iran to view developing nukes as means of forcing us to negotiate?

Yes. Obviously, there are other variables, then, besides the nuclear issue. One obvious difference is the economic draw to and interest in Iraq. There are fare fewer economic incentives with North Korea.

Burma provides a case in point. The US has spoken out against the regime for oppressing organized protests and called for countries with economic ties to the regime to use their influence to support the monks and popular movement. This is, of course, the right position, often lauded now in the media.

And, of course, the US has no economic interests in Burma itself which would conflict with the adoption of a moral position. I think we needn't go through the wealth of examples of times where the US has been guilty of what it now criticizes China for, allowing economic interests get in the way of moral principles such as by propping up oppressive regimes.

So the issue isn't really nukes. That's more the side-show. Iraq wasn't about WMD. That was simply the pretext, just as the nuclear issue is the pretext justifying present US policy towards Iran, which is intended to send the message to Iran and other nations seeking sovereignty and independence from the western system that such will not be tolerated.

And, yes, I agree with you as to the end result of the policy. I wrote in another article:

Current U.S. policy towards Iran is designed to create a casus belli for attacking Iran. Then, when it occurs, it will be pointed to as justification for the policy that led to it.

U.S. pressure against Iran through the U.N. Security Council, it's insistence that Iran give up its nuclear program despite being a member of the NPT and despite the enforcement of sanctions, will lead to Iran becoming increasingly defiant until the point they finally decide to withdraw from the NPT treaty (which they have already threatened to do, as predicted) and insist upon the withdrawal of all IAEA personnel. Iran has claimed its nuclear program is intended for peaceful purposes only, but threats of violence against Iran by the U.S. and its Middle East ally, Israel, can only demonstrate to Iran its need for a nuclear weapon to deter aggression from these nuclear powers that have openly declared their intention to bomb should Iran refuse to comply with U.S. demands. This future consequence, too, is well understood, and predictable. U.S. policy towards Iran is self-fulfilling, which is to say that it produces the very result it claims to be trying to prevent.

This was true for U.S. policy towards Iraq, as well. It was well understood that, given the assumption that Iraq actually had weapons of mass destruction (WMD)—a claim for which there was no credible evidence at the time—Saddam Hussein would only be willing to use his WMD against the U.S. or U.S. forces as a final act of desperation in the event that the U.S. invaded Iraq. Iraq had no WMD, of course, and this never occurred, but the fact is that U.S. leaders claimed the policy was designed to prevent such an occurrence while in fact bringing about the very circumstances required to make such an occurrence most likely.

In addition, the war was ostensibly fought to secure and destroy alleged stockpiles of WMD to prevent them from winding up in the hands of terrorists while actually exponentially increasing the chances that this very thing would happen, as a result of the chaos and looting that would occur as a result of destabilizing the government and the resulting foreseeable breakdown of law and order. Had Iraq had WMD, it is quite possible that the weapons would have ended up in the hands of terrorists not in spite of but as a result of the U.S. invasion.

http://www.yirmeyahureview.com/articles/2007/path_towards_war_with_iran.htm

Yirmeyahu
11-03-2007, 04:40 AM
I thought it was said - because he was repeating what Ayatollah Komeini said back in 1979. And that's what Khomeini said. He certainly says enoug about israel being destroyed soon. You seem to be concentrating on one speech - out of the dozens he's given over the last two years, where he talks of the US and Israel's demise.

I was referring specifically to the "wipe Israel from the map" speech, yes.

As for talk of Israel's "demise" interpreting this as opposition to a criminal regime is one thing, interpreting it as a threat of violence is another entirely. The former is correct, the latter a misrepresentation of the words.

moonman
11-03-2007, 11:06 AM
Yirmeyahu, I infer that you view Iran as generally benign and ambivalent about extending its power. Is this because you don't view Iran as seeking to re-establish the Ottoman Empire and/or the Persian Empire?

Smurf-Herder
11-03-2007, 11:25 AM
I was referring specifically to the "wipe Israel from the map" speech, yes.

As for talk of Israel's "demise" interpreting this as opposition to a criminal regime is one thing, interpreting it as a threat of violence is another entirely. The former is correct, the latter a misrepresentation of the words.

I'm logically not looking at this as if his Israel rhetoric is happening in a vacuum. But looking at the big picture of everything presently involving Iran. You can't compartmentalize his statements on Israel.

moonman
11-03-2007, 11:39 AM
I'm logically not looking at this as if his Israel rhetoric is happening in a vacuum. But looking at the big picture of everything presently involving Iran. You can't compartmentalize his statements on Israel.

If Iran and it's Mullah led regime is comitted to wiping Israel off the map, how is it that Jews are able to live in Iran in relative peace?

Smurf-Herder
11-03-2007, 11:53 AM
If Iran and it's Mullah led regime is comitted to wiping Israel off the map, how is it that Jews are able to live in Iran in relative peace?

Because they aren't a separate country being an impediment to Iran controlling the region. And they're good for propaganda purposes right where they are.

Frankg
11-03-2007, 05:08 PM
] Moreover, Mohammed ElBaradei has noted repeatedly that there is no evidence Iran has diverted nuclear material for weapons. As for the estimate given, this is apparently deduced from the fact that ElBaradei said a couple years ago that Iran was five to ten years from being able to make a bomb.
I stupid , I work at Walmart and I live in a trailor BUT I think have enough common sense to know that you don't put a dude named MOHAMMED in charge of overseeing a terrorist supporting nation, like IRAN , to make sure they don't develope newcular weapons !!!!

GeeJuzz-H-Christ !!!

Frankg
11-03-2007, 05:24 PM
In short, the UN resolutions which are pointed to as evidence that Iran's continuation of nuclear-related activities is "illegal" are self-contradicting; acting under color of law they demand that Iran continue its voluntary suspension and that Iran surrender its right to continue with research and development while IAEA inspections are ongoing, while at the same time reaffirming that it is Iran's "inalienable right" under the NPT treaty to do so without prejudice. Therefore, the Security Council itself is technically in violation of its own resolutions, as well as the terms of the NPT Treaty and the UN Charter. Iran has not neglected to point this out
YY

Can you please explain here , I don't understand this at all , how is the UN Security Council in violation of its own resolutions ?

thanks

Frankg
11-03-2007, 05:35 PM
, "In one, Iran ends up with nuclear weapons, bringing new instability and a hair-trigger face-off with nuclear Israel into one of the world's least safe neighbourhoods. In another, America or Israel take pre-emptive military action and manage to stop it, even though such an attack would almost certainly have very dangerous consequences of its own. In the third ending, Iran is attacked, and enraged, and retaliates—and still ends up with a bomb anyway."

How about a fourth, Amajeeadahd gets assassinatined , overthrown or just plain kicked out by the moolah's and we all live happily ever after

Yirmeyahu
11-03-2007, 11:40 PM
Yirmeyahu, I infer that you view Iran as generally benign and ambivalent about extending its power. Is this because you don't view Iran as seeking to re-establish the Ottoman Empire and/or the Persian Empire?

Well, like I said, Iran is seeking independence, particularly in energy. That's sensible. Of course Iran would like to have more influence in the region. The Iraq war is a blessing for them in that regard in that it precipitated the rise of a Shia dominated government.

As for military conquest, no, I don't perceive any threat from Iran whatsoever. They are certainly not seeking to re-establish the Ottoman or Persian Empire.

Smurf-Herder
11-03-2007, 11:44 PM
Well, like I said, Iran is seeking independence, particularly in energy. That's sensible. Of course Iran would like to have more influence in the region. The Iraq war is a blessing for them in that regard in that it precipitated the rise of a Shia dominated government.

As for military conquest, no, I don't perceive any threat from Iran whatsoever. They are certainly not seeking to re-establish the Ottoman or Persian Empire.


Then you apparently are ignoring their intentions involving Hamas and Hezbollah; and their plan to deploy medium-range missiles in Syria and Sudan.

Yirmeyahu
11-03-2007, 11:52 PM
I'm logically not looking at this as if his Israel rhetoric is happening in a vacuum. But looking at the big picture of everything presently involving Iran. You can't compartmentalize his statements on Israel.


I'm not sure what you mean. It's quite often suggested that Iran intends to attack Israel, and the quote most often used to support this assertion is the one I addressed.

If Iran and it's Mullah led regime is comitted to wiping Israel off the map, how is it that Jews are able to live in Iran in relative peace?Because they aren't a separate country being an impediment to Iran controlling the region. And they're good for propaganda purposes right where they are.

The assumption is incorrect. Iran is "committed to wiping Israel off the map" only in the sense that it wants regime change. Iran has no intention of violence or use of military force against Israel.

As for Iran's problem with Israel, it is not that Israel is some sort of obstacle to Iran having more influence in the region, it is that it is an oppressive regime illegally occupying Palestinian land and openly threatening Iran.

I stupid , I work at Walmart and I live in a trailor BUT I think have enough common sense to know that you don't put a dude named MOHAMMED in charge of overseeing a terrorist supporting nation, like IRAN , to make sure they don't develope newcular weapons !!!!

GeeJuzz-H-Christ !!!

He's highly competent, and I find that to be a rather racist statement.

Can you please explain here , I don't understand this at all , how is the UN Security Council in violation of its own resolutions ?

Well, I explained that quite thoroughly in the article. Shall I cut and paste?

UN resolutions 1747 and 1737 both basically reiterate 1696, which begins by reaffirming the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and recalling the right of parties to that treaty "to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes without discrimination." The NPT states that "Nothing in this Treaty shall be interpreted as affecting the inalienable right of all the Parties to the Treaty to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes without discrimination and in conformity with Articles I and II of this Treaty", which state essentially that no party to the treaty shall proliferate nuclear weapons. 1696 was enacted under Article 40 of Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, which stipulates that the Security Council may "call upon the parties concerned to comply with such provisional measures as it deems necessary or desirable", but "without prejudice to the rights, claims, or position of the parties concerned."

1696's provisional measures are to call upon Iran to "take the steps required by the IAEA Board of Governors in its resolution GOV/2006/14, which are essential to build confidence" about Iran's intentions. In that document, the IAEA "Underlines that outstanding questions can best be resolved and confidence built in the exclusively peaceful nature of Iran's programme by Iran responding positively to the calls for confidence building measures which the Board has made on Iran and in this context deems it necessary for Iran to...re-establish full and sustained suspension of all enrichment-related and reprocessing activities including research and development...."[6]


This is a reference to Iran's previous suspension of nuclear-related activities under the Paris Agreement. It is commonly implied that Iran has a legal obligation to suspend nuclear activities under this agreement, such as former UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw's statement that "The Paris agreement...sets out very clearly that the suspension of conversion and uranium enrichment processing continues until there is a long term agreement under the Paris agreement."[7] In fact, the Paris Agreement "recognize[s] that this suspension is a voluntary confidence building measure and not a legal obligation."[8]


In short, the UN resolutions which are pointed to as evidence that Iran's continuation of nuclear-related activities is "illegal" are self-contradicting; acting under color of law they demand that Iran continue its voluntary suspension and that Iran surrender its right to continue with research and development while IAEA inspections are ongoing, while at the same time reaffirming that it is Iran's "inalienable right" under the NPT treaty to do so without prejudice. Therefore, the Security Council itself is technically in violation of its own resolutions, as well as the terms of the NPT Treaty and the UN Charter. Iran has not neglected to point this out.

Yirmeyahu
11-04-2007, 12:01 AM
Then you apparently are ignoring their intentions involving Hamas and Hezbollah; and their plan to deploy medium-range missiles in Syria and Sudan.

Any support Iran may give Hezbollah is not some sort of attempt to rebuild the Ottoman or Persian empires. Frankly, that suggestion is ridiculous and should hardly merit any further response. Iran views Hezbollah as legitimately liberating themselves from Israeli occupation and defending Lebanon against Israeli aggression. Whatever else one may think of Hezbollah, and I am highly critical of the group, that is a correct view.

Smurf-Herder
11-04-2007, 01:32 AM
Any support Iran may give Hezbollah is not some sort of attempt to rebuild the Ottoman or Persian empires. Frankly, that suggestion is ridiculous and should hardly merit any further response. Iran views Hezbollah as legitimately liberating themselves from Israeli occupation and defending Lebanon against Israeli aggression. Whatever else one may think of Hezbollah, and I am highly critical of the group, that is a correct view.

Between that and this:

"Iran is "committed to wiping Israel off the map" only in the sense that it wants regime change."

You leave me speechless.

You're lost in apologetics, from what I can make of you.

Yirmeyahu
11-04-2007, 01:29 AM
What about either statement leaves you speechless? There's nothing contradictory there. What, precisely, do you disagree with or find shocking?

Smurf-Herder
11-04-2007, 11:51 AM
What about either statement leaves you speechless? There's nothing contradictory there. What, precisely, do you disagree with or find shocking?

Your perspective on this appears to be focused on defending Iran, as opposed to objectively evaluating the entire situation.

And I find your statement on Iran wanting only regime change in Israel ludicrous. In everything I've read, I've never seen anything that suggests this type of rhetoric on their part as being anything more than deflecting attention from their true motives, for people who have their sympathies with Iran and only want to find fault with Israel.

moonman
11-04-2007, 12:05 PM
Because they aren't a separate country being an impediment to Iran controlling the region. And they're good for propaganda purposes right where they are.

And you know this because the Mullah's have you on speed dial?

Smurf-Herder
11-04-2007, 01:07 PM
And you know this because the Mullah's have you on speed dial?

And you know the opposite to be true, because you have a speed dial to the Mullahs?

Yirmeyahu
11-04-2007, 10:32 PM
Your perspective on this appears to be focused on defending Iran, as opposed to objectively evaluating the entire situation.

And I find your statement on Iran wanting only regime change in Israel ludicrous. In everything I've read, I've never seen anything that suggests this type of rhetoric on their part as being anything more than deflecting attention from their true motives, for people who have their sympathies with Iran and only want to find fault with Israel.

I don't wish to discuss your opinion of me or my views. I wish to discuss the facts about Iran.

I've stated what the facts are and based my judgment upon those facts. If you disagree with any facts I've presented, or any conclusion I've made, you're welcome to point out any error in fact or logic, and we can discuss it.

As it is, I stand by what I said before. I needn't repeat it.

moonman
11-04-2007, 10:37 PM
And you know the opposite to be true, because you have a speed dial to the Mullahs?

So the best you can do is play, "I know you are but what am I." Yawn.

Islam Rocks!
11-04-2007, 10:47 PM
Any support Iran may give Hezbollah is not some sort of attempt to rebuild the Ottoman or Persian empires. Frankly, that suggestion is ridiculous and should hardly merit any further response. Iran views Hezbollah as legitimately liberating themselves from Israeli occupation and defending Lebanon against Israeli aggression. Whatever else one may think of Hezbollah, and I am highly critical of the group, that is a correct view.
You have only stated the Truth, but several people here don't want to hear the Truth!

moonman
11-04-2007, 11:03 PM
I don't wish to discuss your opinion of me or my views. I wish to discuss the facts about Iran.

I've stated what the facts are and based my judgment upon those facts. If you disagree with any facts I've presented, or any conclusion I've made, you're welcome to point out any error in fact or logic, and we can discuss it.

As it is, I stand by what I said before. I needn't repeat it.

Well the one thing about facts Yirmeyahu is that everybody interprets them through their own POV.

Without getting overly personal, I think you dismiss Iranian nationalism without recognizing the importance that Iranian nationalsim plays in the local politics. All the players, from the Shah to the current ruling Mullahs come to power promising to restore Iran's greatness and acquire once again Iran's true place as a leader among nations.

Rallying the masses on the selling point that, "We were great and we will be great once more" is both flattering and delivers the only thing politicians have to sell, which is hope.

So I'm unable to agree with you entirely unless and until you would stipulate that Iranian nationalism is indeed a powerful force in Iranian politics. To a very real extent Iranian nationalism, as does all nationalism, has negative effects, such that Iranians may be flattered in believing they can restore an empire. So there :taunt:

Yirmeyahu
11-05-2007, 01:35 AM
Well the one thing about facts Yirmeyahu is that everybody interprets them through their own POV.

Sure. Some things are open to interpretation. Others are not. There is such a thing as objective fact. Not everything is subjective. The key is to build from a foundation we can all agree upon and go from there.

Without getting overly personal, I think you dismiss Iranian nationalism without recognizing the importance that Iranian nationalsim plays in the local politics. All the players, from the Shah to the current ruling Mullahs come to power promising to restore Iran's greatness and acquire once again Iran's true place as a leader among nations.

Sure. I fully recognize that and am not sure why you think otherwise, unless you drew that conclusion from my stating that Iran does not intend to reconquer through war what was once the Persian Empire.

Recognizing the strong sense of Iranian nationalism and claiming some whimsical hypothetical from the figments of our imaginations are worlds apart, and you make an enormous leap to conclude from my remark that I don't recognize the importance of Iranian nationalism in Iranian politics.

To a very real extent Iranian nationalism, as does all nationalism, has negative effects, such that Iranians may be flattered in believing they can restore an empire.

That would certainly be very self-flattering, if Iranians actually had any such intention, which is an assertion I find, frankly, ridiculous.

Of course Iran wants to be strong and increase its influence. Iran seeks independence and wishes to be properous. Again, there's a huge leap from recognizing this simple truth to saying Iran seeks to "restore an empire" long dead.

moonman
11-05-2007, 01:47 AM
We are into a subjective area in attempting to gauge the degree to which Iran seeks hegemony. To suggest, as you do, Iranians are somehow different from the rest of humankind and milenia of human behavior doesn't apply to them, I suggest, and I won't be so rude as use your term, 'ridiculous' but rather, naive in the extreme.

I infer you suggest there are limits to Iranian hegemony. What and where, in your opinion, are those limits?

Yirmeyahu
11-05-2007, 01:58 AM
We are into a subjective area in attempting to gauge the degree to which Iran seeks hegemony. To suggest, as you do, Iranians are somehow different from the rest of humankind and milenia of human behavior doesn't apply to them, I suggest, and I won't be so rude as use your term, 'ridiculous' but rather, naive in the extreme.

I infer you suggest there are limits to Iranian hegemony. What and where, in your opinion, are those limits?

I would argue with your assumption that to seek hegemony over an empire is an innate aspect of humankind.

Take the current state of affairs in the US. What percentage of Americans wants the US to seek global hegemony? I'd be willing to bet the numbers are very few, that most Americans espouse the position that the US should seek good relations with other countries in trade and diplomacy while respecting their independence and right to self-determination.

Governments, of course, don't always act in accordance with the mass will of the people. There's no correlation whatsoever between the actions of a government or empire and the will of the people. Unless, of course, one was to argue that there was a reverse corrleation. That would be a hypothesis I might be willing to hear out.

Yirmeyahu
11-05-2007, 02:02 AM
Getting back to Iran, we may of course attribute to its government whatever motives and intentions we so desire to attribute to them. But doing so is meaningless unless there is a logical and rational basis for forming such a judgment.

In the case of Iran, what I have said is that the basis for claiming that Iran wants to attack Israel is nothing more than propaganda. There is no logical and rational basis for forming such a judgment, and every statement I've seen attributed to Iranian leaders as supporting evidence for the assertion have ranged from grossly miscontextualized to outright fabricated.

moonman
11-05-2007, 02:43 AM
As to your suggestion that a majority of people want peace, I quite agree. However people want with one hand and crap into the other quickly learn which hand fills up first. The fact remains that milenia of human history suggests enough of the people quickly sell their wants and desires and buy into the crap that fills them with pride and puts food in their bellies, so as to thwart the stated wants of the majority.

As wonderful as the Iranian people may be, they are not exempt from the frailty of human nature.

The extent to which you understand Iranian hegemony is it stops short of a desire to attack Israel directly. How do explain Iran's support for groups that do attack, or in the least, retaliate against Israel?

While I agree with your suggestion that Iran recognizes a direct upon Israel is not in Iran's best interest, do you not agree that Iran's policy toward Israel is less than peaceful and benign? Is the support for groups that do attack and/or retaliate against Israel is Iran using proxies or mercenaries to accomplish that which it cannot?

Does Iranian hegemony extend to Iraq? If not, are you able to refute the body of evidence that suggests otherwise?

Does Iranian hegemony extend to Syria and Lebanon? If not how do you explain the numerous reports suggesting it does?

I quite agree with you that Iran poses no threat to us with this caveat; if we attack Iran the cost in terms of people and money will be at least 4x as great as we have spent in Iraq. Such folly would bankrupt this nation.

Before and if you respond, consider you are responding to one who refers to Bush' "War On Terrorism" as the "War Among Terrorists." In other words, there are no clean hands, merely competing interests embroiled in asymetrical conflict.

Yirmeyahu
11-05-2007, 03:22 AM
How do explain Iran's support for groups that do attack, or in the least, retaliate against Israel?

As I said before, the comment of mine Islam Rocks! quoted:

Any support Iran may give Hezbollah is not some sort of attempt to rebuild the Ottoman or Persian empires. Frankly, that suggestion is ridiculous and should hardly merit any further response. Iran views Hezbollah as legitimately liberating themselves from Israeli occupation and defending Lebanon against Israeli aggression. Whatever else one may think of Hezbollah, and I am highly critical of the group, that is a correct view.

Does Iranian hegemony extend to Iraq? If not, are you able to refute the body of evidence that suggests otherwise?

I'm not sure which "body of evidence" you're referring to. Certainly, the fact that Iraq and Iran are both majority Shia nations and that Iraq's Shia population was repressed under the Hussein regime means that Iran has some influence in Iraq. Iran has nothing like "hegemony" in Iraq, though.

I quite agree with you that Iran poses no threat to us with this caveat; if we attack Iran the cost in terms of people and money will be at least 4x as great as we have spent in Iraq. Such folly would bankrupt this nation.

It would be a catastrophe, yes. That doesn't mean it won't occur, though.

moonman
11-05-2007, 04:05 AM
Okay last post tonight my friend. I'll pick it up again tomrrow. My response is in italics.

Originally Posted by moonman
How do explain Iran's support for groups that do attack, or in the least, retaliate against Israel?


As I said before, the comment of mine Islam Rocks! quoted:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yirmeyahu
Any support Iran may give Hezbollah is not some sort of attempt to rebuild the Ottoman or Persian empires. Frankly, that suggestion is ridiculous and should hardly merit any further response. Iran views Hezbollah as legitimately liberating themselves from Israeli occupation and defending Lebanon against Israeli aggression. Whatever else one may think of Hezbollah, and I am highly critical of the group, that is a correct view.

Ah yes. Islam rocks or merely one flavor of monotheist bigotry.

As for, "Iran views Hezbollah as legitimately liberating themselves from Israeli occupation and defending Lebanon against Israeli aggression." One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Thanks for proving my point that this is a War Among Terrorists.

Ridiculous? Currently Turkey is mobilizing on Iraqs northern border. If Turkey expands its territroy to include Northern Iraq, how long before Iran acquieses to reunification? The only debate could well be wether to locate the capitol in Instanbul or Tehran. Yer welcome to label this a 'ridicuous scenario' though stranger things have happenned in the M.E.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonman
Does Iranian hegemony extend to Iraq? If not, are you able to refute the body of evidence that suggests otherwise?


I'm not sure which "body of evidence" you're referring to. Certainly, the fact that Iraq and Iran are both majority Shia nations and that Iraq's Shia population was repressed under the Hussein regime means that Iran has some influence in Iraq. Iran has nothing like "hegemony" in Iraq, though.

I figured you take the bait. Meriam-Websters defines hegemony as influence. I obviously correctly identified you as one to full of himself to recognize that which you don't know

Aside to Frankg, radioguy & Smurf-herder, I hope you morons are payin' attention to this. You might learn something. naw, what am I thinkin' that either of them could learn? whoa, my bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonman
I quite agree with you that Iran poses no threat to us with this caveat; if we attack Iran the cost in terms of people and money will be at least 4x as great as we have spent in Iraq. Such folly would bankrupt this nation.


It would be a catastrophe, yes. That doesn't mean it won't occur, though.

Exactly and such a castrophe is my fear.

moonman
11-05-2007, 04:12 AM
Another aside to Frankg, radioguy & Smurf-herder: If after reading the above you ever challenge my patriotism again for disagreeing with our moronic administration, you're even dumber than I think you are, which is dumber than a box of rocks.

Yirmeyahu
11-05-2007, 04:15 AM
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Certainly.

Ridiculous? Currently Turkey is mobilizing on Iraqs northern border. If Turkey expands its territroy to include Northern Iraq, how long before Iran acquieses to reunification?

With Turkey? I'm sorry, moonman, you're operating on a whole different framework here. I don't know how to comment because I just don't see what you're seeing.

I think the notion of Iran seeking to re-establish either the Ottoman or the Persian empire is ridiculous. I won't dissuade you from trying, but I doubt you'll be able to persuade me otherwise.

I figured you take the bait. Meriam-Websters defines hegemony as influence. I obviously correctly identified you as one to full of himself to recognize that which you don't know

Sorry, moonman, you lost me. I'm well aware what the word "hegemony" means, and it doesn't mean just "influence", but "preponderant influence". Moreover, the context was having to do with the notion of an Iranian empire. As I said, certainly, Iran has influence over its neighbor, but nothing approaching what I would regard as "hegemony".

Exactly and such a castrophe is my fear.

Mine as well, which is why I seek to dispel with so much of the propaganda being put out there leading us down that road.

moonman
11-05-2007, 10:56 PM
Apparently you don't know what hegemony means. What you describe as "preponderant influence" is merely the degree to which one has influence or hegemony over another.

Yes we do disagree on the subject of Iran's policy of seeking hegemony in the region. While I agree with you Iran poses minimal threat to us, Iran can and does threaten our allies in the region. Iran's strategy of attack is very much akin to our chickenhawk Republicans, who avoid service but are the first to send others to do their fighting. No honor in that, though it may be clever tactic, it remains a tactic absent honor.