Bush Defends Mukasey Over Waterboarding

[LadyMod at scam.com]

You know? That's a scary picture.


Bush Defends Mukasey Over Waterboarding (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/01/washington/01cnd-mukasey.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2007-11-01-bushmuk.jpg


Paper: Hedging On Torture Is Meant To Protect Bush Officials From Criminal Charges

WASHINGTON, Nov. 1 — President Bush went on the offensive today to salvage the nomination of Michael B. Mukasey to be attorney general, declaring that Mr. Mukasey is being mistreated by some senators and that his service is urgently needed while the nation is “at war.”

“Judge Mukasey is not being treated fairly,” the president said, after taking the extraordinary step of inviting a group of reporters into the Oval Office to vent his feelings. Sitting behind his desk and leaning back in his chair, Mr. Bush said he was concerned that some people may have “lost sight of the fact that we’re at war.”

It is highly unusual, if not unprecedented, for Mr. Bush to usher a small group of journalists into the Oval Office. The venue, in addition to the intensity of the president’s words, gave a strong signal that Mr. Bush thinks the nomination of Mr. Mukasey, once seen as a sure thing, is in trouble over his responses to questions about what constitutes illegal torture. A crucial Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the nomination is set for Tuesday.

“It is time to get his nomination to the floor so the Senate can vote him up or down,” Mr. Bush said. Democrats have a 10-to-9 advantage on the judiciary committee, and in the event that a party-line vote goes against the nominee it is by no means certain that Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Senate majority leader, would allow the nomination to go to the Senate floor.

Mr. Mukasey has adamantly refused to declare waterboarding, a technique that simulates drowning, illegal. In doing so, he has been steering clear of a potential legal quagmire for the Bush administration: criminal prosecution or lawsuits against Central Intelligence Agency officers who used the harsh interrogation practice and those who authorized it, legal experts say.

[disrupter]

indefensible

[Smurf-Herder]

Just to frame this in perspective:

Hillary flip-flops, contradicts Bill - & herself - in N.H. debate
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/2007/09/26/2007-09-26_hillary_flipflops_contradicts_bill___her.html

" Sen. Hillary Clinton scored with a Democratic audience last night by contradicting her husband's belief that a terrorist could be tortured to foil an imminent plot - but what observers didn't know is she was contradicting herself, too."

"Last October, Clinton told the Daily News: "If we're going to bepreparing for the kind of improbable but possible eventuality, then it has to be done within the rule of law."

She said then the "ticking time bomb" scenario represents a narrow exception to her opposition to torture as morally wrong, ineffective and dangerous to American soldiers.

"In the event we were ever confronted with having to interrogate a detainee with knowledge of an imminent threat to millions of Americans, then the decision to depart from standard international practices must be made by the President, and the President must be held accountable," she said."

[disrupter]

It must be illegal.
Then if someone sees the need they break the law, but not without price.

Otherwise it just turns into unaccountable torture, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT WE HAVE GOTTEN,
torture 24/7, because we are all doing a 'good' thing torturing SUSPECTS.

You can't know that someone has information unless you already know what they know. If so there is no need to torture, because you already know. It is a logic conundrum.
You ARE torturing people you suspect of knowing something, & probability means you will torture far more people than ones who have ANY real info.
More often people will confess to just about anything, even making up elaborate scenarios & have you chasing a string of bogus clues, wasting resources.

The whole thing just goes off wildly, degeneratively in the WRONG direction.

Meanwhile it undermines every iota of moral superiority you ever hoped to claim.

It is illogical.

The beauty of the universe is that it is logical & if you don't discover & use its logic, you lose.

It makes you dependent on having people to torture.
dependent on the people being tortured.
And as we see with the Neocrooks it makes their whole political rational dependent on terrorists & terrorism. And i guarantee you if there weren't already terrorists, they can, have & will create them.

it is all circular logic.

we need demonstrable terrorists & terrorism to validate our project against them.

The REAL truth of the matter is we need them psychologically & dramatically to validate & give a rationale for our existences.

People are stupid & unworthy.

[Cat slave]

Oh for gawds sake!!! And that moral superiority will get us what pray tell.

Waterboarding hasnt been used in years and used a total of 3 times following
9-11. Yes, its frightening, thats the idea but its better than having someones
head dirlled with a drill or numerous hideous things Ive heard about as the
other side conjures up for "real torture"!!!!

Can we all look past the flurry of words and get to whats really going on?

[Moby]

What's concerning is that Mukasey claims to not understand the issue. Either he does and he's not telling the truth in which case he's not fit for the position or he really is telling the truth and he's clueless. Either way, it's scary to have him in office.

While this is of concern what's most concerning is his support of the belief that the President is above the law. That may be the case in communist China, in North Korea or even Iran but it is NOT the case in any free democratic society.

[bassmaster]

To touture someone makes no sense. When you touture someone they will say anything just to be left alone. Besides our goverment has no more of a right to touture someone, then i do to go out and hurt someone. Republicans are all mixed up.


Bassmater:thumbsup:

[disrupter]

Cat Slave won't mind if we waterboard him, yes?

It comes from the Spanish Inquisition.

Are there more monsterous things possible, yes.

I & many others, unlike Cat Slave, don't want to be picking & choosing degrees of monstrosity as US policy.

How much shit is too much shit in your morning oatmeal?

I will opt for none.

[Smurf-Herder]

BTW, all our air force fighter and bomber pilots and crews undergo waterboarding in their training; as it's expected, if they are shot down and captured.

[Moby]

BTW, all our air force fighter and bomber pilots and crews undergo waterboarding in their training; as it's expected, if they are shot down and captured.
Then is it really something that could get quality information from them?

I've never been tortured and I've never had information worthy of torture so I'm just not sure what's up. It just seems that a well trained pilot, spy or terrorist would not be effected by it that much and people like you and I would go nuts.

[Smurf-Herder]

Then is it really something that could get quality information from them?

I've never been tortured and I've never had information worthy of torture so I'm just not sure what's up. It just seems that a well trained pilot, spy or terrorist would not be effected by it that much and people like you and I would go nuts.

From everything I've heard, the Al-Qaeda masterminds aren't as tough as their brainwashed foot-soldiers. They don't expect to do much more than send other people to die for their plans.

KSM caved, bigtime. And connected at lot of the dots of sparse info from other intelligence sources.

[disrupter]

Smurf-Herder:From everything I've heard, the Al-Qaeda masterminds aren't as tough as their brainwashed foot-soldiers.

sounds just like the chickenhawk neocrooks.

soldiers die so Bechtel, Halliburton & Blackwater can profit.

[Cat slave]

Cat Slave won't mind if we waterboard him, yes?

It comes from the Spanish Inquisition.

Are there more monsterous things possible, yes.

I & many others, unlike Cat Slave, don't want to be picking & choosing degrees of monstrosity as US policy.

How much shit is too much shit in your morning oatmeal?

I will opt for none.

Just FYI, Im a "her" not a "him"!

[Cat slave]

Well, then why is a national issue when someone uses an unpleasant word?
Are there no degrees in words or degrees of fear or degrees of pain? Funny,
when you go to the ER they ask you on a scale of 1-10 how bad is the pain?
Yes, there are different degrees of everything.

[disrupter]

You give government an inch they take a mile.
You argue exactly that when it comes to taxes or regulations,

but when it comes to torturing people it is 'bring it on'

I guess that is what America is good for,
torturing people?

So which is it Cat Slave? Government will torture responsibly while it is incapable of taxing or regulating responsibly.

Is it ok if i think that is crazy?

Remember Abu Ghraib?

Yup, time for my state to secede from this bizarre union.

[Jesse Hemingway]

Can you say mossad

Mukasey and his [adopted] lawyer son, Marc, are closely connected with GOP presidential hopeful Rudy Giuliani - both serving on his judicial advisory committee. Marc Saroff Mukasey was a 26-year-old enforcement lawyer at the Securities and Exchange Commission in New York in March 1994 when he married Nancy Eve Rothenberg.


Marc is a partner with Bracewell & Giuliani LLP. In 2005, former New York City mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani joined the firm as a senior partner.
http://www.bollyn.com/index/?id=10619



The Blotter: 1,245 Secret CIA Flights Revealed by European ...

Alleged Iranian 'Front' Represented by Mukasey Law Firm ... by a covert CIA/Mossad operation while the entire USAF / defense department sat ...
blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/11/1245_secret_cia.ht... blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/11/1245_secret_cia.html
More Results from blogs.abcnews.com

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/11/1245_secret_cia.html

[Smurf-Herder]

You give government an inch they take a mile.
You argue exactly that when it comes to taxes or regulations,

but when it comes to torturing people it is 'bring it on'

I guess that is what America is good for,
torturing people?

So which is it Cat Slave? Government will torture responsibly while it is incapable of taxing or regulating responsibly.

Is it ok if i think that is crazy?

Remember Abu Ghraib?

Yup, time for my state to secede from this bizarre union.

Abu Ghraib was the brainchild of two out of control CACI contractors and easily led redneck prison guards.

[Cat slave]

And everyone kept their heads and lived to tell about it.:p

[disrupter]

NO.

Rumsfeld shipped Geoffrey Miller to Abu Ghraib specifically so he could implement the same torture there that he was inflicting at Gitmo.

Rumsfeld is the one who requested DOJ legal cover for torture. So he could get that mystic conspiracy of Iraqi insurgents. Talk about a conspiracy theory, the dumb fucker couldn't figure out that they all shared a hate of arrogant foreign invaders.

Sorry, babers, but no BS sales today.

This one is in Rumsfeld's court.
The French got this one spot on & Karpinsky is willing to testify against the traitor & war criminal, Rumsfeld.

[disrupter]

No cat slave did you not see the body on ice that the guards had killed in all their playful torture?

Have you not heard about the Afghani cab driver who knew nothing, had nothing to do with anything & the guards knew it, but they PULPED his legs while his wrists were strung to the cell ceiling & he died.

Have you not heard about the Iraqi general who was stuffed head first into a sleeping bag & chest sat on until he suffocated? And the shit who did it to him got off with a slap on the wrist.

You are monsters. & you want my nation to become monsters with you.
well sorry, not interested.

[Cat slave]

You give government an inch they take a mile.
You argue exactly that when it comes to taxes or regulations,

but when it comes to torturing people it is 'bring it on'

I guess that is what America is good for,
torturing people?

So which is it Cat Slave? Government will torture responsibly while it is incapable of taxing or regulating responsibly.

Is it ok if i think that is crazy?

Remember Abu Ghraib?

Yup, time for my state to secede from this bizarre union.

No one but you said "bring it on". We are talking about a method to extract
information in order to prevent further catastrophe and loss of life...American
lives and they matter more to me than some nut case with ties to the worst
disaster in the history of our country.

[Cat slave]

Funny how when a country suffers a disaster who is it that steps up to the
plate with huge amounts of assistance... humanitarian relief they call it!
Count the countries with their hands out to the USA and gets them filled.
Dont want to be a part of that, hey, whatever floats your boat.:p

[disrupter]

And how much information did we get out of Abu Ghraib?
About the VAST insurgent conspiracy?

With a credibility gap that huge, the only answer is no.

You may be comfortable being a monster, i am not.

[disrupter]

The country getting the biggest US foreign aid is fucking rich fucking israel.

It is all bullshit. Do you realize how forked your tongue is on this?

And PS that is a fucking rationalization.
NOT a justification.

[Cat slave]

Get a grip dissy. You really hate America dont you?

Oh well, you cant win 'em all. Nighty night dissy.

[disrupter]

No i love the america i was brought up to believe in.

Not the distorted monstrosity, warped sick people are creating.

[Smurf-Herder]

NO.

Rumsfeld shipped Geoffrey Miller to Abu Ghraib specifically so he could implement the same torture there that he was inflicting at Gitmo.

Rumsfeld is the one who requested DOJ legal cover for torture. So he could get that mystic conspiracy of Iraqi insurgents. Talk about a conspiracy theory, the dumb fucker couldn't figure out that they all shared a hate of arrogant foreign invaders.

Sorry, babers, but no BS sales today.

This one is in Rumsfeld's court.
The French got this one spot on & Karpinsky is willing to testify against the traitor & war criminal, Rumsfeld.

Well, I can't say I have first-hand knowledge of who gave what orders; but my ex's boyfriend worked for CACI, with a high security clearance. And he knows people involved. And the specific tactics used were the ideas of two guys in his organization who were fired because of it.

[disrupter]

And you believe it Smurf.

Now run along and play with the other kiddies.

[Smurf-Herder]

And you believe it Smurf.

Now run along and play with the other kiddies.

I know it.

http://www.examiner.com/a-1026722~Va__Dems_sued_for__1M_for_ad_.html

"The ad in question said, “Tim Hugo’s lobbying firm represents the ones who were responsible for torture abuses at Abu Ghraib.”

The Livingston Group said it formally represented CACI International, which provided civilian interrogators to assist military personnel at the notorious Iraqi prison. The firm said CACI hired Livingston to lobby Congress on a different issue and has not been a client since 2004, a year before Hugo joined the lobbying shop.

“The Livingston Group was extremely upset that anyone would link them to companies involved in the Abu Ghraib incident,” said Ben DiMuro, a Livingston attorney."

[disrupter]

Abu Ghraib Tactics Were First Used at Guantanamo

By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, July 14, 2005; Page A01

Interrogators at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, forced a stubborn detainee to wear women's underwear on his head, confronted him with snarling military working dogs and attached a leash to his chains, according to a newly released military investigation that shows the tactics were employed there months before military police used them on detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

The techniques, approved by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld for use in interrogating Mohamed Qahtani -- the alleged "20th hijacker" in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks -- were used at Guantanamo Bay in late 2002 as part of a special interrogation plan aimed at breaking down the silent detainee.
. . . .
A central figure in the investigation, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who commanded the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay and later helped set up U.S. operations at Abu Ghraib, was accused of failing to properly supervise Qahtani's interrogation plan and was recommended for reprimand by investigators. Miller would have been the highest-ranking officer to face discipline for detainee abuses so far, but Gen. Bantz Craddock, head of the U.S. Southern Command, declined to follow the recommendation.

Miller traveled to Iraq in September 2003 to assist in Abu Ghraib's startup, and he later sent in "Tiger Teams" of Guantanamo Bay interrogators and analysts as advisers and trainers. Within weeks of his departure from Abu Ghraib, military working dogs were being used in interrogations, and naked detainees were humiliated and abused by military police soldiers working the night shift.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302380.html

now keep in mind it was Rumsfeld himself who asked the DOJ to give him legal cover for torture.

In August 2003, Miller was sent to Iraq by the Department of Defense to help get more information out of Iraqi prisoners. In September, Miller submitted a report that recommended "GTMO-ising" their approach - combining the detention and interrogation units at Abu Ghraib into the Theater Joint Interrogation and Detention Center. Specifically, Miller suggested that prison guards be used to "soften up" prisoners for interrogations.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Miller_(general)

[Smurf-Herder]

Abu Ghraib Tactics Were First Used at Guantanamo

By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, July 14, 2005; Page A01

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302380.html

now keep in mind it was Rumsfeld himself who asked the DOJ to give him legal cover for torture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Miller_(general)

I never said Rumsfeld was in the clear. Only that the extensive abuses, humiliations, etc., in Iraq were devised and reinforced by the guys from CACI. At Gitmo, you only had dogs and underwear on somebody's head from what I know of.

And btw, this doesn't seem to cover the waterboarding, which from what I understand was a CIA thing.

[Cat slave]

I think that a point has been missed in the discussion of panties on the heads
and all that dreadful torturing. A lot of the guys that have been released from
Gitmo want to stay. If it is a concentration camp or the like why is that
pray tell.:p

[Smurf-Herder]

I think that a point has been missed in the discussion of panties on the heads
and all that dreadful torturing. A lot of the guys that have been released from
Gitmo want to stay. If it is a concentration camp or the like why is that
pray tell.:p

If they get released back to their own countries, they get severely tortured on a regular basis, with no chance of civil rights. Gitmo is a vacation, compared to foreign prisons. Air Conditioning, good food, etc. In fact, a report last year cited abuse by over-feeding them (lol). They were gaining too much weight. And actually, some countries refuse to take their people back. They want to pawn them off on us, so they don't have to deal with them.

[disrupter]

Great, America's new slogan:

'We aren't any worse than the worst.'