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View Full Version : New Evidence That Blackwater Guards Took No Fire


LadyMod at scam.com
10-13-2007, 08:23 AM
Man, the plot gets deeper and deeper. I wonder if this case will be used to justify the new draft that will have to be started in order to keeps the number of troops in Iraq?

New Evidence That Blackwater Guards Took No Fire (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/13/world/middleeast/13blackwater.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/10/13/world/13blackwater.600.jpg
The view on Friday of Nisour Square in Baghdad from the roof at the southwest corner. On Sept. 16, Blackwater vehicles were on the south side of the square, at the lower right.

This article was reported by James Glanz, Richard A. Oppel Jr. and Michael Kamber and written by Mr. Glanz.


BAGHDAD, Oct. 12 — Fresh accounts of the Blackwater shooting last month, given by three rooftop witnesses and by American soldiers who arrived shortly after the gunfire ended, cast new doubt Friday on statements by Blackwater guards that they were responding to armed insurgents when Iraqi investigators say 17 Iraqis were killed at a Baghdad intersection.

The three witnesses, Kurds on a rooftop overlooking the scene, said they had observed no gunfire that could have provoked the shooting by Blackwater guards. American soldiers who arrived minutes later found shell casings from guns used normally by American contractors, as well as by the American military.

The Kurdish witnesses are important because they had the advantage of an unobstructed view and because, collectively, they observed the shooting at Nisour Square from start to finish, free from the terror and confusion that might have clouded accounts of witnesses at street level. Moreover, because they are pro-American, their accounts have a credibility not always extended to Iraqi Arabs, who have been more hostile to the American presence.

Their statements, made in interviews with The New York Times, appeared to challenge a State Department account that a Blackwater vehicle had been disabled in the shooting and had to be towed away. Since those initial accounts, Blackwater and the State Department have consistently refused to comment on the substance of the case.

The Kurdish witnesses said that they saw no one firing at the guards at any time during the event, an observation corroborated by the forensic evidence of the shell casings. Two of the witnesses also said all the Blackwater vehicles involved in the shooting drove away under their own power.

The Kurds, who work for a political party whose building looks directly down on the square, said they had looked for any evidence that the American security guards were responding to an attack, but found none.

“I call it a massacre,” said Omar H. Waso, one of the witnesses and a senior official at the party, which is called the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan. “It is illegal. They used the law of the jungle.”

Many of the American soldiers were similarly appalled. While Blackwater has said its guards were attacked by automatic gunfire, the soldiers did not find any casings from the sort of guns typically used by insurgents or by Iraqi security forces, according to an American military official briefed on the findings of the unit that arrived at the scene about 20 minutes after the Blackwater convoy left. That analysis of forensic evidence at the scene was first reported Friday by The Washington Post.

The official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak about the matter, added that soldiers had found clear evidence that the Blackwater guards were not been threatened and also opened fire on civilians who had tried to flee. “The cartridges and casings we found were all associated with coalition forces and contractors,” the official said. “The only brass we found where somebody fired weapons were ones from contractors.”

The case has angered many in the military who believe that the conduct of the security guards makes the troops’ jobs harder. “If our people had done this,” another American military official said, “they would be court-martialed.”

The shooting, on Sept. 16, and the deaths of two Iraqi women in a shooting by a different security company on Tuesday, have provoked anger at politically potent levels of Iraqi society. In the holy cities of Karbala and Najaf, officials affiliated with Iraq’s most revered Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, called for sanctions against the companies.

In Karbala, a spokesman for the ayatollah inveighed against “the cheapening of Iraqi blood” and called for Parliament to take action. In a legacy of orders handed down during post-invasion American rule here, Western contractors essentially have immunity to Iraqi law.

None of the roughly two dozen witnesses previously interviewed by Iraqi investigators said that they saw or heard anyone but the Blackwater guards fire during the shooting, which Iraq says killed 17 and wounded 27. Still, because nearly all of those witnesses were in the field of fire, their accounts could conceivably have been skewed by the terror and confusion of the moment.

The Kurdish witnesses on the rooftop said they had not been interviewed by Iraqi investigators. They said they had been visited by American investigators, but had not been fully interviewed.

PAGE 2 (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/13/world/middleeast/13blackwater.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&th&emc=th)

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Smurf-Herder
10-13-2007, 10:10 AM
I still have to question why there was any shooting in the first place.

Didn't this all start with a car bombing a couple blocks away? That's what I read in the initial account. And that's something that can be easily verified.

From what I've seen of interviews, all Blackwater escort security are former US military, who have received honorable discharges and been given thorough background checks; along with a 120 day procedural training course in their specific duties. I just can't see a whole bunch of them going nuts, on a lark.

disrupter
10-13-2007, 11:01 AM
so in Cat-herder's world the fact that there was a bomb blocks away validates wanton murder of unarmed civilians?

Wow, so if your next door neighbor shoots at you & you decide to drive a couple of blocks away & start random murder of people that makes sense?

Oh, i forgot, EVERYTHING, EVERY wanton act in conflict zone is excusable. My bad. every theft of the US treasury & fraudulent re-construction contract is ok.

reason #4272 why you don't go to war without a damn good reason.

Smurf-Herder
10-13-2007, 11:04 AM
so in Cat-herder's world the fact that there was a bomb blocks away validates wanton murder of unarmed civilians?

Wow, so if your next door neighbor shoots at you & you decide to drive a couple of blocks away & start random murder of people that makes sense?

Oh, i forgot, EVERYTHING, EVERY wanton act in conflict zone is excusable. My bad. every theft of the US treasury & fraudulent re-construction contract is ok.

reason #4272 why you don't go to war without a damn good reason.

As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on all the facts.

Nobody just shoots for no reason.

disrupter
10-13-2007, 11:22 AM
If children are brought up without any repercussions for negative acts they degenerate into [often highly privileged] animals.

If the male preponderance for violence is unchecked for years running as it has been for all the contractors in iraq they degenerate into wanton killers.

note: there was a blackwater guard to tried to get his fellow guards to stop shooting. obviously he was mostly unsuccessful.

Spare the rod, spoil the child.
Spare any discipline, create outlaw killers.

Smurf-Herder
10-13-2007, 11:35 AM
If children are brought up without any repercussions for negative acts they degenerate into [often highly privileged] animals.

If the male preponderance for violence is unchecked for years running as it has been for all the contractors in iraq they degenerate into wanton killers.

note: there was a blackwater guard to tried to get his fellow guards to stop shooting. obviously he was mostly unsuccessful.

Spare the rod, spoil the child.
Spare any discipline, create outlaw killers.

Life is one big conspiracy to you, isn't it?

disrupter
10-13-2007, 11:40 AM
No, there are rational logical trains of cause & effect.

Cause: Bush Administration demand that contractors have NO legal repercussions in Iraq.

Result: Shocking Outlaw behavior by contractors in Iraq.

Smurf-Herder
10-13-2007, 11:42 AM
No, there are rational logical trains of cause & effect.

Cause: Bush Administration demand that contractors have NO legal repercussions in Iraq.

Result: Shocking Outlaw behavior by contractors in Iraq.

Look, I'll say it again.

There is no logical reason to just start shooting, for no reason.

disrupter
10-13-2007, 11:49 AM
How about sadistic gleeful pleasure, combined with adrenaline anxiety rush because of the bomb?

Ya think those smiling guards at Abu Ghraib were FAKING those smiles?

It is lawless war.
What is rational about lawless, needless, counterproductive war?

you are attempting to excuse the inexcusable,
but you have been doing that for Bush for 6 years running.

Most human actions are probably irrational at their base.
When was the last time you sat down & questioned the deepest base of your thought process & checked out the ideas they might be based on for rationality, for credible evidence that supports them?
Or did you take it on faith?

Smurf-Herder
10-13-2007, 11:51 AM
How about sadistic gleeful pleasure, combined with adrenaline anxiety rush because of the bomb?

Ya think those smiling guards at Abu Ghraib were FAKING those smiles?

It is lawless war.
What is rational about lawless, needless, counterproductive war?

you are attempting to excuse the inexcusable,
but you have been doing that for Bush for 6 years running.

That's your extremely biased opinion.

disrupter
10-13-2007, 11:53 AM
Biased by observations of human beings, not excluding myself.

It plays well to pretend people operate rationally, but for the most part they don't. It is a common, pleasant self-delusion.

Moby
10-13-2007, 12:09 PM
From what I've seen of interviews, all Blackwater escort security are former US military, who have received honorable discharges and been given thorough background checks; along with a 120 day procedural training course in their specific duties. I just can't see a whole bunch of them going nuts, on a lark.
According to their web site.
http://www.blackwaterusa.com/employment/contract.asp

General Contract Requirements:
Must be willing and able to deploy for 6 months.
Must be a U.S. Citizen, proof of citizenship is required.
Weight must be proportionate to height.
Must maintain a neat and clean appearance.
Must be in good health and pass a physical test.
Most positions require ability to obtain/maintain a secret or higher clearance.
No history of major illness or mental disorder.
Must have an Honorable Discharge and DD-214.
No felony, violent crimes, spouse or child abuse convictions(NO WAIVERS)
No personal bankruptcy or significant credit problems with past seven (7) years.
It appears that they at least try to find people with a good background. Most companies when needing to hire lots of people allow these things to slip but still this looks pretty good.

The main thing to remember is that most of that many of these security people have not been in combat and if they were it was in a desert and not a city street. Tensions are high and people are walking around every where carry things. Even with proper training anyone can get scared in this situation, yell at a civilian to stop, the civilian gets scared and runs then one person shoots. The next thing you know everyone else joins in.

It's a pretty simple concept and it's human nature. How can you not understand this?

disrupter
10-13-2007, 12:20 PM
civil order rests on a delicate threshold,
especially in a place where violent disorder is as much the norm.

the first bullet, scares people into thinking some exchange is occurring even though it is actually one sided against the unarmed. Additional guards pile on.

Unrestrained power in action.

Absolute power corrupts absolute.
A natural, documentable, chain progression.

Smurf-Herder
10-13-2007, 02:29 PM
According to their web site.
http://www.blackwaterusa.com/employment/contract.asp


It appears that they at least try to find people with a good background. Most companies when needing to hire lots of people allow these things to slip but still this looks pretty good.

The main thing to remember is that most of that many of these security people have not been in combat and if they were it was in a desert and not a city street. Tensions are high and people are walking around every where carry things. Even with proper training anyone can get scared in this situation, yell at a civilian to stop, the civilian gets scared and runs then one person shoots. The next thing you know everyone else joins in.

It's a pretty simple concept and it's human nature. How can you not understand this?

Thankyou for posting that, btw.

I can understand how something can get out of hand. My contention is that they're not crazed, irresponsible killers, as Disrupter thinks.

Independent Harry
10-13-2007, 03:50 PM
Who says crazed irresponsible killers, how about idiots with guns. Why the hell do we even allow a private company to own a mercenary force. Imagine, blackwater, has 15,000 troops total. They could march on the US capital and take control of the government without anyone standing int here way...

Smurf-Herder
10-13-2007, 07:08 PM
Who says crazed irresponsible killers, how about idiots with guns. Why the hell do we even allow a private company to own a mercenary force. Imagine, blackwater, has 15,000 troops total. They could march on the US capital and take control of the government without anyone standing int here way...

They're highly trained security teams, mostly guarding officials; contracted by the State Department, among others.

Moby
10-14-2007, 12:57 AM
I can understand how somethingMy contention is that they're not crazed, irresponsible killers, as Disrupter thinks.
Dude, his name is "Disrupter" and that would lead you to believe that he is here to ahh.... never mind. Any further comment on this issue is pointless, except for noting that he got you to respond.

We know that they're hiring people that quit the military. Now we have to wonder why. We should also question why Cheney suggested America outsource the military when he was leaving the government and followed though when he got back in after making millions.

Smurf-Herder
10-14-2007, 10:07 AM
Dude, his name is "Disrupter" and that would lead you to believe that he is here to ahh.... never mind. Any further comment on this issue is pointless, except for noting that he got you to respond.

We know that they're hiring people that quit the military. Now we have to wonder why. We should also question why Cheney suggested America outsource the military when he was leaving the government and followed though when he got back in after making millions.


Yeah, I know. He's pretty obvious. But sometimes he needs to be put down.

Outsourcing can be cheaper, considering you have a dozen adminstrative and support people behind every US soldier that has to do a job.

Bush picked Cheney because he had previous experience in the cabinet. At the time it seemed a logical choice. BTW, I'm not a Cheney fan; I'm just not paranoid of him.

Also, a note on Blackwater: They became a government contractor under Clinton.