Christianity's numbers are falling - Time Magazine

[Bill]

I thought this was interesting.

I've always thought christianity was going to end up losing more than it gained by getting involved in politics. The numbers are starting to tell. "... a rapid increase in the number of people describing themselves as non-christian..."

To paraphrase Ghandi - "What do you think of Christianity?" - "I think it woul be a great idea.".

---

It used to be, says David Kinnaman, that Christianity was both big and beloved in the U.S. — even among its non-adherents. Back in 1996, a poll taken by Kinnaman's organization, the Barna Group, found that 83% of Americans identified themselves as Christians, and that fewer than 20% of non-Christians held an unfavorable view of Christianity. But, as Kinnaman puts it in his new book (co-authored with Gabe Lyons) UnChristian, "That was then."

Barna polls conducted between 2004 and this year, sampling 440 non-Christians (and a similar number of Christians) aged 16 to 29, found that 38% had a "bad impression" of present-day Christianity. "It's not a pretty picture" the authors write. Barna's clientele is made up primarily of evangelical groups.

Kinnaman says non-Christians' biggest complaints about the faith are not immediately theological: Jesus and the Bible get relatively good marks. Rather, he sees resentment as focused on perceived Christian attitudes. Nine out of ten outsiders found Christians too "anti-homosexual," and nearly as many perceived it as "hypocritical" and "judgmental." Seventy-five percent found it "too involved in politics."

Not only has the decline in non-Christians' regard for Christianity been severe, but Barna results also show a rapid increase in the number of people describing themselves as non-Christian. One reason may be that the study used a stricter definition of "Christian" that applied to only 73% of Americans. Still, Kinnaman claims that however defined, the number of non-Christians is growing with each succeeding generation: His study found that 23% of Americans over 61 were non-Christians; 27% among people ages 42-60; and 40% among 16-29 year olds. Younger Christians, he concludes, are therefore likely to live in an environment where two out of every five of their peers is not a Christian.

Churchgoers of the same age share several of the non-Christians' complaints about Christianity. For instance, 80% of the Christians polled picked "anti-homosexual" as a negative adjective describing Christianity today. And the view of 85% of non-Christians aged 16-29 that present day Christianity is "hypocritical — saying one thing doing another," was, in fact, shared by 52% of Christians of the same age. Fifty percent found their own faith "too involved in politics." Forty-four percent found it "confusing."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1667639,00.html?xid=rss-nation

---

[Cat slave]

Or could it be that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and makes
every other religion appear dwindling???
Scary stuff that Sharia Law.

[Linkster]

cat slave - I would think that since those numbers are from inside the US and I dont think the census numbers show a big change in muslim percentages here - so that would be kind of a wrong avenue to go down - now if you maybe took the route that Im sure some rather conservative senators will take in the coming days - and blame it on illegal immigrants from Mexico - you might have a little better leg to stand on :)

[Bill]

Since the survey was of americans, as I understood the article, that seems unlikely.

Altho major changes in demographics have to be taken into account, I wasn't under the impression that muslims were a fast growing demo in the US.

[Bill]

Altho, I suppose it's always possible that the big bad giant muslims are going to wipe out the poor weak little christians.

Then I guess your kitty icon would have to put on one of those head wraps.

[Cat slave]

Guys, get a grip. The statement was to generate discussion not needle
anyone. And isnt my little cat avatar submissive enough without a burqua?
Maybe the big bad muslims will let you share a foot bath.

[Cat slave]

Since the survey was of americans, as I understood the article, that seems unlikely.

Altho major changes in demographics have to be taken into account, I wasn't under the impression that muslims were a fast growing demo in the US.

Have you looked in your phone book lately? Like under the "A"s?

[Linkster]

Well - at least the cat can "carry the water" for those baths :lmao2: - and yes I think we both understand what you were doing :thumbsup:

[Bill]

Yeah, there are a lot more muslims around than there used to be, that's true.

The wiki, if it can be believed, and if I'm interpreting it correctly, says muslims increased by 3/10ths of a percent last decade. Looks like the buddhists grew a bit faster

Wheras non-denominational and non-religious, which would mean people like myself, increased by 1.2% and 6.6%, respectively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Religious_affili ation

But, yeah, there are more muslims. They could be anywhere.

Yet, for some reason, I don't worry much about the shariat.

I like your kitty icon - a beautiful mixing of metaphors.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Not really surprised. More than 90% of Christians don't have a clue how to be a christian anyway so it's no real loss.


Lady Mod

[Cat slave]

Not really surprised. More than 90% of Christians don't have a clue how to be a christian anyway so it's no real loss.


Lady Mod

Personally I swore off Christians a long time ago and Im sure that is the %
that you address. Major, huge turnoff!! And I was raised a Baptist, church
twice on Sunday, every Wed night, and every night of every revival there
ever was. I started having questions when I was in elementary school and
the questions have never stopped. Not to question and have faith blindly
doesnt get for me.

I respect anyones religion as long as they dont try to cram it down my throat.
Im sure you and I live far more "Christian" lives than that 90% you mention.
They usually dont do anything for anyone unless it is noticed by others and
they can feel superior.

Whatever.....just not for me.

[Moby]

The percentage of Christians south of our border is much higher then in the USA and they tend to follow the teachings more closely. Could this be one of the major reasons why the administration has tried to get as many people from Mexico as possible? It's certainly a good thing for the religious leaders.

[Moby]

Do any of you know a true follower of the Christian religion? Not someone that goes to church every Sunday but someone who actually follows the teachings of Jesus. Someone that tries to be thy neighbors keeper, doesn't lie, doesn't work on Sundays, doesn't harbor anger ...

I know of one couple that I think follow those teachings.

[Leeguana]

Do any of you know a true follower of the Christian religion? Not someone that goes to church every Sunday but someone who actually follows the teachings of Jesus. Someone that tries to be thy neighbors keeper, doesn't lie, doesn't work on Sundays, doesn't harbor anger ...

I know of one couple that I think follow those teachings.
I've met many that claim to do those things, but never met anyone who actually does. Go figure . . .

[asroc]

doesn't work on Sundays

In all his infinite wisdom, the good lord didn't forsee the telecommute.

[disrupter]

All muslims, & i suspect it is a minority, are not believers in sharia law.

Some people use religion to find some kind of center in their lives,

but in the public arena most dogmatic religion is used as cover for unethical, inhumane & even monstrous behavior under the false cover of 'morality'.

As if murder rape & robbery are legitimized if you do it in the name of your god or religion. It is used to de-humanize other people.

People who parade their religion around stridently, especially in politics, are generally truly wicked & deceiving people. Their zeal blinds them to all the human beings & all the life around them. They are as bulls in china shops, not knowing what they destroy in their callous ignorance.

A religion without any mystery is kind of static & dead. Zealots act like something in the final death-throes, thrashing & attempting to claw into anything & drag everyone else down with them.

If it gives you guidance in your own life, fine, if you want to force your agenda on others, sounds like time to send you on to your maker.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

In all his infinite wisdom, the good lord didn't forsee the telecommute.


Well, you have to go through the Valley of Death.

Some speculate it might have been a person crossing Death Valley to get to California and the Hills of Gold. :confused:

[radioguy]

Christianity's numbers are falling - Time Magazine

BREAK OUT THE CHAMPAGNE!

The Muslim extremists, Communists, socialist dictators, Democrats in Washington and the American liberal will be celebrating tonight...

[Linkster]

Something I didnt realize - there used to be (under Saddam) over 1 million christians in Iraq - most evidently in Baghdad - and had 100 churches there. Seems with the ethnic cleansing two thirds have fled Iraq The Bishops have gone to Europe to find help with what they percieve to be a humanitarian crisis - isnt it ironic that a born-again christian has done more to stifle christianity in Iraq than anyone in their 1500 years of living in that region


http://www.azzaman.com/english/index.asp?fname=news%5C2007-10-02%5Ckurd.htm

[Leeguana]

Christianity's numbers are falling - Time Magazine

BREAK OUT THE CHAMPAGNE!

The Muslim extremists, Communists, socialist dictators, Democrats in Washington and the American liberal will be celebrating tonight...
Where's the party?!?!

I think you should add atheists to that string as well. Just to make me feel better. That way I can say I'm part of two of the groups on your list.:D

[Leeguana]

Something I didnt realize - there used to be (under Saddam) over 1 million christians in Iraq - most evidently in Baghdad - and had 100 churches there. Seems with the ethnic cleansing two thirds have fled Iraq The Bishops have gone to Europe to find help with what they percieve to be a humanitarian crisis - isnt it ironic that a born-again christian has done more to stifle christianity in Iraq than anyone in their 1500 years of living in that region


http://www.azzaman.com/english/index.asp?fname=news%5C2007-10-02%5Ckurd.htmIronic? Yes.

Surprising? Not in the least.

[Kinky Jones]

Do any of you know a true follower of the Christian religion? Not someone that goes to church every Sunday but someone who actually follows the teachings of Jesus. Someone that tries to be thy neighbors keeper, doesn't lie, doesn't work on Sundays, doesn't harbor anger ...

I know of one couple that I think follow those teachings.

both sides of my family actually, and alot of others too... the problem with religion is that the far right religious wing is greatly exageratted in their numbers, because really good hearted but gullible folks like my family think that the money they offer to jesus every sunday goes to help the less fortunate, and a big part of it is actually funneled up the religious chain to "family values" outlets who funnel it to the politicians who promise to bring god to all of us like good christian sheep, err soldiers i mean

RELIGION: THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL SINCE THE BEGINNING OF HUMAN COMMUNICATION.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

both sides of my family actually, and alot of others too... the problem with religion is that the far right religious wing is greatly exageratted in their numbers, because really good hearted but gullible folks like my family think that the money they offer to jesus every sunday goes to help the less fortunate, and a big part of it is actually funneled up the religious chain to "family values" outlets who funnel it to the politicians who promise to bring god to all of us like good christian sheep, err soldiers i mean

RELIGION: THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL SINCE THE BEGINNING OF HUMAN COMMUNICATION.

Good grief, what denomination does your family belong to? In the Fundamental Baptist Church, monies collected every week pay the running costs of the church, salaries (which the men vote on as a whole) and incidentals required to keep the place running. Any monies designated to missionaries goes to the missionaries, period. Not a middle man not a percentage, all of it.

It's not religion that is the root of all evil. It's the love of Religion over the love of God that is the root. Religion itself is just the outgrowth.

Lady Mod

[Bill]

Christianity's numbers are falling - Time Magazine

BREAK OUT THE CHAMPAGNE!

Damn straight - I'll drink to that!

I look forward to a rebirth of christianity, cleansed of all this victorian prudishness and covert hatreds.

I believe christians can do it. The best parts of christianity are hauntingly beautiful.

[Kinky Jones]

Good grief, what denomination does your family belong to? In the Fundamental Baptist Church, monies collected every week pay the running costs of the church, salaries (which the men vote on as a whole) and incidentals required to keep the place running. Any monies designated to missionaries goes to the missionaries, period. Not a middle man not a percentage, all of it.

It's not religion that is the root of all evil. It's the love of Religion over the love of God that is the root. Religion itself is just the outgrowth.

Lady Mod

yes because all religious donations are carefully accounted for Lady :disbelief:

i just watched a documentary on religon that was made this year and it is scary that these people are fooled so handily by religion, and where their money goes... the church i went to as a kid is now on a million dollar piece of land built into the side of a mountain, good use of all that donated money, the more people you can pack in the more money you make... and yes, it is religion that is the problem, you seem to believe that your god is the one and only god? you see people have been fighting over this god fellow since the beginning of man because they all believe the stories they have been told are the right and true stories.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

yes because all religious donations are carefully accounted for Lady :disbelief:

i just watched a documentary on religon that was made this year and it is scary that these people are fooled so handily by religion, and where their money goes... the church i went to as a kid is now on a million dollar piece of land built into the side of a mountain, good use of all that donated money, the more people you can pack in the more money you make... and yes, it is religion that is the problem, you seem to believe that your god is the one and only god? you see people have been fighting over this god fellow since the beginning of man because they all believe the stories they have been told are the right and true stories.

Well, maybe I just generalized it too much. That is how it's set up in the Fundamental Baptist Church. All of them. But some do have their crooks. I also have to concede that the church I belonged to 20 years ago is not the same character as churches today.

The Fudamental Baptist churches do not answer to the southern baptist convention or any big committee. They answer only unto themselves. That makes how they are set up unique in the religious realm.

But now other denominations and different baptist churches, they may easily for all I know, do what you say they do. It wouldn't surprise me one bit.

I don't darken the doors of today's churches unless there is a funeral or wedding I must attend. Or I'm doing business with them. In which case, I'm usually saving them money, LOL.

Lady Mod

[Kinky Jones]

Well, maybe I just generalized it too much. That is how it's set up in the Fundamental Baptist Church. All of them. But some do have their crooks. I also have to concede that the church I belonged to 20 years ago is not the same character as churches today.

The Fudamental Baptist churches do not answer to the southern baptist convention or any big committee. They answer only unto themselves. That makes how they are set up unique in the religious realm.

But now other denominations and different baptist churches, they may easily for all I know, do what you say they do. It wouldn't surprise me one bit.

I don't darken the doors of today's churches unless there is a funeral or wedding I must attend. Or I'm doing business with them. In which case, I'm usually saving them money, LOL.

Lady Mod

i caught the documentary 1/3 of the way thru and it was 2 am so i forgot the name but ive been trying to find it again to see if it is online, but it mostly deals with the southern christian movement where people are being taught that voting democrat is a mortal sin, lots of the falwell followers who believe that they are doing god's work and therefore dont see a problem with sending the money to the wrong places :(

it is disturbing to hear that some people have already "declared war to take their country back" and that they "are willing to fight to do it"

then they showed grown men teaching very young kids that dinosaurs were used by man like ox, to pull around wooden carts and so forth, now that is seriously demented fact forgetting if ou ask me



off subject but nice link in your sig Lady, these days the little things like that can make a difference :-)

[LadyMod at scam.com]

i caught the documentary 1/3 of the way thru and it was 2 am so i forgot the name but ive been trying to find it again to see if it is online, but it mostly deals with the southern christian movement where people are being taught that voting democrat is a mortal sin, lots of the falwell followers who believe that they are doing god's work and therefore dont see a problem with sending the money to the wrong places :(

Did you try youtube? maybe under a search of "southern christian movement"

They might even have a documentary section.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Hey KJ, is this the documentary?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vS5GPKcUDbY


Lady Mod

[Kinky Jones]

well i found a trailer, it turns out that it was done by the daughter of Nancy Pelosi, and it is/was playing on HBO, titled Friends of God

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BQg7Unh7iU8

and it was me adding the southern part in because that is where the "movement" has its roots, the documentary is just Pelosi with a camera letting people talk in their own words

no Lady, but that trailer is disturbing as well


funny litttle side story, anybody remeber the blasphemy challenge Bill posted awhile back? i bought the documnetary for shits and giggles to watch with some friends on a boring night, when it got here i read the back of the DVD cover and it says:

Bowling for Combine did it for the gun culture.

Super Size me did it to fast food.

Now The God Who Wasn't There does it to religion.

i didnt even bother to take the shrink wrap off it lol

[Jennifer]

Hmm, a lower amount of people following an organized religion that mandates ethics and morality that seems to correlate to an increased amount of rape, murder and other violent crimes around the world.

Maybe there's something to this religion thing after all.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Hmm, a lower amount of people following an organized religion that mandates ethics and morality that seems to correlate to an increased amount of rape, murder and other violent crimes around the world.

Maybe there's something to this religion thing after all.

Yep, those that claim it aren't living it.

[Bill]

correlate to an increased amount of rape, murder and other violent crimes around the world.

Maybe there's something to this religion thing after all.

Yep, must be the nonreligious doing all that killin.

Surely it couldn't be all the war and greed and fear.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Yep, must be the nonreligious doing all that killin.

Surely it couldn't be all the war and greed and fear.

NO the religious are doing the killing. They are just getting fewer recruits into their ranks.


:D

[Jennifer]

"Before we start trashing religion, we should recognize that religion down through history has been misused by lots of people in terrible ways. But it's also done some profoundly good things. What has atheism done to help people? The worst examples of human carnage in the 20th century came from the atheist regimes of Stalin and Mao. The principles of faith are generally altruistic, gently and loving. The problem is when someone takes those principles and twists them to suit their own purposes - that was the Inquisition, and that is Terrorism." Francis Collins (The head of the Human Genome Project)

[Linkster]

Wow - since when did the top 2 communist leaders not have religion - as far as I remember communism is a religion - and has nothing to do with atheism - just replaces all other religions with its own.

But at least you got the Inquisition in there - thats good - lest we forget the catholics, christians, jews, muslims and all the other religions that have been warring for 3500 years - and have killed way more people than communism ever did

[asroc]

As an empiricist I am prevented from taking any claim of a deity or higher power seriously until something resembling evidence or proof is presented.

To date, I have been presented nothing.

And yet, I am altruistic and feel no urge to destroy everything around me.

Go figure.

[disrupter]

Bush being a proud, vocal 'born again' Christian, probably has a lot of sane Christians doing a double check.

Inspiration is original & personal, it is not a product of design or mass-production.

Spirituality is inherently unique, it bridges that which is codifiable to that which is not. And your bridges are yours alone. Bridges enable movement in both directions.

Are your values something you are informed of, pressured to, or something you have to discover for yourself? If they are not self-discovered how can you rightly call them 'yours'? If they are not 'yours' how can they ever come from your heart?

Is anything more uninspired, unspiritual than organized religion?
The imitation of zeal under social approval rather than discovery adding to the total of human experience.

The inhuman experience instead of the human experience.