Iraq violent death rates 'plunge'

[radioguy]

Iraq violent death rates 'plunge'
BBC

The number of Iraqi civilians killed per month in bombings and shootings has fallen to the lowest level this year, the Iraqi government says.
In September, 884 civilians were killed by violence, less than half the figure for August, the government said.

The BBC's Jon Brain in Baghdad says the figures suggest the so-called surge involving 30,000 extra US troops is having some success.

September also saw the lowest number of US troops killed for more than a year.

There were 62 US military fatalities - the fewest in a single month since July 2006.

The troop surge and accompanying security crackdown is designed to give Iraq's politicians breathing space to achieve reconciliation between the country's rival factions.

However, our correspondent says, the political situation remains deadlocked and there are fears that when the extra troops are withdrawn the violence will escalate again.

Additional figures released by the government indicated that the death toll had fallen by 38% compared with last year's Ramadan, according to the Muslim calendar.

The figures showed 78 members of the Iraqi security forces were killed, down from the 87 killed in August.

The militant death toll was 366, a drop of 106 from the previous month.

[Kinky Jones]

i hope the numbers keep declining yahoo had a good article with a little more detail about the numbers and stuff (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071001/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq)


the surge and putting our troops back into the population is fixing the screw up of pulling out our invasion force too quick, those troops had a great relationship in most of the country with the Iraqis but we pulled them out too soon and everything went to hell

[Smurf-Herder]

Agreed. Rumsfeld tried to pull it off on the cheap; and it failed miserably. But the plan in place now looks extremely promising.

BTW, I just heard on TV that only 41 of the 62 US deaths last month were combat related.

[radioguy]

I agree with both of you.

I hope this trend continues, because it would sure be nice to achieve a victory and be able to pull the majority of our forces out of there soon.

I do wonder however, how much longer it's going to take before both parties get behind the surge and support the troops?

[Linkster]

It sure would be nice if these guys would quote where they get their numbers - thats way below what irb is reporting - they had as of 30 Sept 1280 civilians killed by violence - of course maybe because the reporter qualified it with bombs and shooting that brings the numbers down.

Also noted that the US is now reporting 66 US soldiers for Sept - its a real shame when you look at last year and compare the whole year to this year - some time in the next 10 days we will have gone over the count for the total year last year.

[Smurf-Herder]

I agree with both of you.

I hope this trend continues, because it would sure be nice to achieve a victory and be able to pull the majority of our forces out of there soon.

I do wonder however, how much longer it's going to take before both parties get behind the surge and support the troops?

There is one caveat to Iraq assuming total security for their country - requiring the long stay of about half our forces. Assuming total security does not involve Iraq being able to defend themselves from other countries, just "internal" security. It'll take years to get their airforce and ability to conduct standard mass military operations up to speed.

I think those who don't support it by now never will. On another board I was constantly getting bashed for "confusing" things with THE FACTS. The prevailing sentiment was, everything is a lie; and no source can be believed. So all accusations must be the truth. I actually had to argue the case to a liberal that John Kerry was indeed a Democrat. Any Democrat who agreed with anything was "not really" a Democrat. They eat their own.

[radioguy]

It sure would be nice if these guys would quote where they get their numbers - thats way below what irb is reporting - they had as of 30 Sept 1280 civilians killed by violence - of course maybe because the reporter qualified it with bombs and shooting that brings the numbers down.

Also noted that the US is now reporting 66 US soldiers for Sept - its a real shame when you look at last year and compare the whole year to this year - some time in the next 10 days we will have gone over the count for the total year last year.

Consider the source Linkster. This came from the BBC, and the BBC is well known for their extreme liberal/anti-war bias. They make the NY Times look centrist.

The last thing the BBC would ever do, is publish a story that falsely gives any credit to coalition soldiers, so I wouldn't stress too much on what the source of their numbers was.

[radioguy]

I just turned on the radio and caught the report, which said "the US said 62 soldiers had died in September". I'm not sure, but I think it was ABC radio news.

[radioguy]

Hey Linkster, this is from the Financial Times of London:

"US casualties also declined. Icasualties.org, a website which keeps a tally of US deaths, reported 63 fatalities in September, compared with 84 in August and 126 in May. September’s total is the lowest since July 2006."

[Linkster]

Thats where I just looked and the numbers dont agree with their reporting :thumbsup: - of course like I posted a few days ago - when you get into body counting - the US reports usually lag by 10 days or so - and I see that they added 4 yesterday for Sept that havent had notifications yet - and Im sure they will add a few more

The important thing here - aside from the fact that its just sick to use numbers of dead to show "progress" - is that in fact we have more soldiers dying this year than we did last year - and it looks to be - if the average keeps up even with September - about 200-300 more than last year

I would also kinda disagree that the BBC is even close to liberal - if you had said the Guardian Id buy it

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Thats where I just looked and the numbers dont agree with their reporting :thumbsup: - of course like I posted a few days ago - when you get into body counting - the US reports usually lag by 10 days or so - and I see that they added 4 yesterday for Sept that havent had notifications yet - and Im sure they will add a few more

The important thing here - aside from the fact that its just sick to use numbers of dead to show "progress" - is that in fact we have more soldiers dying this year than we did last year - and it looks to be - if the average keeps up even with September - about 200-300 more than last year

I would also kinda disagree that the BBC is even close to liberal - if you had said the Guardian Id buy it

But the surge is working!?! Look at the number dammit! They are going down, down, down. Listen to FOX. Obey your president, what's his name.


Have some Koolaide, it's good for you.

:lmao2:

[Smurf-Herder]

Thats where I just looked and the numbers dont agree with their reporting :thumbsup: - of course like I posted a few days ago - when you get into body counting - the US reports usually lag by 10 days or so - and I see that they added 4 yesterday for Sept that havent had notifications yet - and Im sure they will add a few more

The important thing here - aside from the fact that its just sick to use numbers of dead to show "progress" - is that in fact we have more soldiers dying this year than we did last year - and it looks to be - if the average keeps up even with September - about 200-300 more than last year

I would also kinda disagree that the BBC is even close to liberal - if you had said the Guardian Id buy it

But you're missing the qualifying point - the strategy has changed since last year. So really, last year's numbers are irrelevant to the current situation. Al-Qaeda and the Iranian-backed Shiites surged during our buildup in the early to late spring - causing death counts to surge. After the buildup was completed in mid-June, we started multiple major offensive operations - resulting in overall death counts falling. So you can't compare last year with this year. It skews any interpretation of how the surge is working.

For example, if twice as many people were killed in the early part of this year than all of last year and we were able to get the death count to zero by the end of the year (for argument's sake); if you just threw all the figures together, an argument could be made that the surge had failed, because we had more deaths this year than last - even though it had in fact succeeded.

[radioguy]

...aside from the fact that its just sick to use numbers of dead to show "progress" - is that in fact we have more soldiers dying this year than we did last year...

That is a false argument Linkster. The troop surge went into full effect June 2007, so why are using the yearly numbers to try and say the troop surge isn't working?

Anyone who says the yearly death totals discredit the effectiveness of the troop surge (which I realize Linkster, you didn't come out and say) is nothing but a partisan liar?

I mean, only a complete fool would use yearly totals to evaluate an operation that has only been in effect less than 4 months... lol How partisan and dishonest does a person have to be to make such a blatantly false assertion?
:lmao2:

[Bill]

But you're missing the qualifying point - the strategy has changed since last year.

By the same logic, this is good news, but, it's just a bit of good news, not a vindication of the war.

Is it worth it, if the united states spends trillions occupying Iraq, serving as a free shia police force, until the infrastructure is rebuilt, then we go home...

And Iran turns Iraq into a fake democracy like what it has, which is really a theocracy.

And sells all it's oil to china and india.

Even if we "win" the occupation, and have a sucessful 20 year occupation, we are still very likely to lose the strategic war.

But, you probably don't care about that. Or think in those terms.

[Linkster]

Well - you suceeded at connecting two different items I posted that had nothing to do with each other

I said that they were sick to use death counts to measure progress

Then I said that the death count is higher this year than last - the two have nothing whatsoever to do with each other - and certainly I wouldnt (although Ive heard a lot of others including that posted article in the first post) connect rates of deaths to a surge that in my opinion has had no effect whatsoever.

Theres no argument there as we both agree that the surge really hasnt produced its intended results anyway - so far its a complete failure from its primary mission (remember the purpose of the surge was to give time to the government to work on fixing themselves - for 6 months)

And troop counts need to stop being used by everyone to try to prove anything other than the fact that we are in a war and we are losing good people - thats all those numbers should mean to anyone

[Bill]

I mean, only a complete fool would use yearly totals to evaluate an operation that has only been in effect less than 4 months... lol How partisan and dishonest does a person have to be to make such a blatantly false assertion?
:lmao2:

So, you are saying that the primary reason this is a good thing is that it vindicates the republicans and increases their power?

How come your perspective is all nicey nice "honest" and Linkster's is partisan?

You can't be all "partisan" this and "partisan" that when your rhetoric is JUST AS FREEKIN PARTISAN.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

I mean, only a complete fool would use yearly totals to evaluate an operation that has only been in effect less than 4 months... lol How partisan and dishonest does a person have to be to make such a blatantly false assertion?
:lmao2:

The same could be said for anyone who uses a monthly total to say the war is a success because the death rate is dropping for one year.

Don't you know "Smoke and Mirrors" when it's in front of your face?


Geez! Wake up and smell the coffee.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

You can't be all "partisan" this and "partisan" that when your rhetoric is JUST AS FREEKIN PARTISAN.

ROFL, in his world maybe you can?


:lmao2:

[Smurf-Herder]

By the same logic, this is good news, but, it's just a bit of good news, not a vindication of the war.

Is it worth it, if the united states spends trillions occupying Iraq, serving as a free shia police force, until the infrastructure is rebuilt, then we go home...

And Iran turns Iraq into a fake democracy like what it has, which is really a theocracy.

And sells all it's oil to china and india.

Even if we "win" the occupation, and have a sucessful 20 year occupation, we are still very likely to lose the strategic war. But, you probably don't care about that. Or think in those terms.

I most certainly do think in those terms.

That's why I have the opinions I do. We don't leave Iraq until the situation with Iran is settled. We're in the region for the duration.

[radioguy]

So, you are saying that the primary reason this is a good thing is that it vindicates the republicans and increases their power?

WHAT!

That's the problem with those of you on the left, you think this war is nothing but a political game.

It's a gd war, not a fucking game!

The primary reason this is a good thing Bill, is that it shows A.M.E.R.I.C.A is starting to win this war... Not republicans... Not conservatives... AMERICA Bill.


How come your perspective is all nicey nice "honest" and Linkster's is partisan?

I wasn't talking about Linkster, thats why I said what I did in parentheses. I'll give you one guess who I might have been talking about.

You can't be all "partisan" this and "partisan" that when your rhetoric is JUST AS FREEKIN PARTISAN.

What exactly was partisan about this post Bill? Please point it out to me... Thanks.

[radioguy]

The same could be said for anyone who uses a monthly total to say the war is a success because the death rate is dropping for one year.

We incorporated a new strategy in June, so you are wrong!

Don't you know "Smoke and Mirrors" when it's in front of your face?


Geez! Wake up and smell the coffee.

You are just off your rocker!!

The numbers don't lie, but your partisan ass sure does.

[Smurf-Herder]

That's the problem with those of you on the left, you think this war is nothing but a political game.



I think that says it all.

Ever since the 2000 election the Left has become irreversibly deranged. It's nothing but domestic politics to them. For the most part, no matter what they say they care about is really the issue. They'll use anything or anyone as an excuse. But it still all comes down to domestic politics to them. Nothing else exists to them, except in that context.

[Moby]

Let's see if the numbers keep going down and if they do I'll be very happy it.

Every month since June 2004 we've heard that things are improving in Iraq and a few months later we find out that's not the case. It's very easy to fudge the numbers for US soldiers by keeping them in secured zones. That only works for a month or two though.

It's even easier to fudge the numbers about the Iraqis killed since the government stopped releasing that information in the spring.

I'll tip my hat in November if the numbers stay down.

[Moby]

I think that says it all.

Ever since the 2000 election the Left has become irreversibly deranged. It's nothing but domestic politics to them. For the most part, no matter what they say they care about is really the issue. They'll use anything or anyone as an excuse. But it still all comes down to domestic politics to them. Nothing else exists to them, except in that context.
I remember in December 2000, maybe January 2001 a bunch of us were sitting around and predicted that Dubya would start a war around 2003 and declare victory the summer of 2004. He declared victory 2 weeks before summer started but we were close :)

We also predicted $3.00 gas before he left office.

We predicted that the largest debt ever recorded.

We predicted that the only way he could win re-election was through war.

We made many other predictions that came true. My last one to come true is the starting of a new war in December 2008 if a neocon doesn't win the white house.

Maybe I'm deranged but some things seem obvious.

Oh, the economy is going to take a big downward turn around 2008 to 2010 because of our debt and guess who Fox is going to blame for it.

[Moby]

I mean, only a complete fool would use yearly totals to evaluate an operation that has only been in effect less than 4 months... lol How partisan and dishonest does a person have to be to make such a blatantly false assertion?
:lmao2:
Then wouldn't a complete fool use these numbers to make a point when there's no baseline? :lmao2:

[radioguy]

Then wouldn't a complete fool use these numbers to make a point when there's no baseline? :lmao2:

There is a baseline. It's the numbers before the troop surge went into effect.

Nearly every statistic indicates the troop surge is having a positive effect.

Civilian deaths are down...
Violent attacks are down...
Attacks during the Islamic holy month are down...
American troop deaths are down...

You can only make an assessment based on how things were in the months before the surge went into effect, not using yearly comparisons.

[Smurf-Herder]

I remember in December 2000, maybe January 2001 a bunch of us were sitting around and predicted that Dubya would start a war around 2003 and declare victory the summer of 2004. He declared victory 2 weeks before summer started but we were close :)

We also predicted $3.00 gas before he left office.

We predicted that the largest debt ever recorded.

We predicted that the only way he could win re-election was through war.

We made many other predictions that came true. My last one to come true is the starting of a new war in December 2008 if a neocon doesn't win the white house.

Maybe I'm deranged but some things seem obvious.

Oh, the economy is going to take a big downward turn around 2008 to 2010 because of our debt and guess who Fox is going to blame for it.

Yeah, a bunch of you predicted all that before Bush even got in office. :talktothehand:

[Smurf-Herder]

There is a baseline. It's the numbers before the troop surge went into effect.

Nearly every statistic indicates the troop surge is having a positive effect.

Civilian deaths are down...
Violent attacks are down...
Attacks during the Islamic holy month are down...
American troop deaths are down...

You can only make an assessment based on how things were in the months before the surge went into effect, not using yearly comparisons.

It'll do no good. You can clearly identify the people who always have to twist and skew things to make them fit into their little spin on reality. And patting themselves on the back for doing such a good job; while looking like total fools to anyone who is objective.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Down compared to what? The numbers were higher to begin with.

Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors. I'm with Sir Moby, we did predict all these things that DID happen long before they happened.

So far, we haven't been real surprised.

You Neocons go ahead, drink the Koolaide, slap yourselves on the back. Enjoy the delussion, that's ALL it is.


:lmao2:

[LadyMod at scam.com]

We incorporated a new strategy in June, so you are wrong!

pfffft, I'm rarely wrong Cupcake. And I'm not wrong this time either. But keep smokin' that weed.


You are just off your rocker!!

The numbers don't lie, but your partisan ass sure does.

Tsk tsk. Getting hot under the collar again? You always do when you have to defend your lies.

:lmao2:

[Smurf-Herder]

Down compared to what? The numbers were higher to begin with.

Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors. I'm with Sir Moby, we did predict all these things that DID happen long before they happened.

So far, we haven't been real surprised.

You Neocons go ahead, drink the Koolaide, slap yourselves on the back. Enjoy the delussion, that's ALL it is.


:lmao2:

Down compared to the higher numbers, Lady.

And the predictions are a little too conveniently exact for me, after the fact.

You're the ones not dealing with reality.

[Smurf-Herder]

pfffft, I'm rarely wrong Cupcake. And I'm not wrong this time either. But keep smokin' that weed.




Tsk tsk. Getting hot under the collar again? You always do when you have to defend your lies.

:lmao2:

When in doubt, taunt. Right?

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Down compared to the higher numbers, Lady.

And the predictions are a little too conveniently exact for me, after the fact.

You're the ones not dealing with reality.

Well Woooo wooo! :woohoo:

"We had very high number ladies and gentlemen. After 5 years of war the numbers were at an all time high but now they are coming down. This is proof that our ill planning and sacrifice of over 3,000 of our finest men and women is working with the onset of the surge."


Bullshit! You may be peddling it but I ain't in the market to buy it. :talktothehand:


Lady Mod

[LadyMod at scam.com]

When in doubt, taunt. Right?

No, when he wants to start with the names I'm game and more than able to meet that challenge.


Lady Mod

[Smurf-Herder]

Well Woooo wooo! :woohoo:

"We had very high number ladies and gentlemen. After 5 years of war the numbers were at an all time high but now they are coming down. This is proof that our ill planning and sacrifice of over 3,000 of our finest men and women is working with the onset of the surge."


Bullshit! You may be peddling it but I ain't in the market to buy it. :talktothehand:


Lady Mod

Because you refuse to deal with the facts. The strategy changed this year; and it's making a difference.

[Smurf-Herder]

No, when he wants to start with the names I'm game and more than able to meet that challenge.


Lady Mod


Take it out in the schoolyard at recess.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Because you refuse to deal with the facts. The strategy changed this year; and it's making a difference.

Frickin strategy changes every year, sometimes more often. Big deal. I'm waiting for the new one to be announced January 1st.



Lady Mod

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Take it out in the schoolyard at recess.

Bite me!

I've been calling him Cupcake for two years. He's practically immune to it now. If you are jealous I figure out something for you too.

What are you? His mother?


Lady Mod

[Smurf-Herder]

Frickin strategy changes every year, sometimes more often. Big deal. I'm waiting for the new one to be announced January 1st.



Lady Mod

Bullshit!

We had the same strategy that everybody was bitching about until Bush replaced Rumsfeld with Gates. Now the strategy is working; and you and others like you are saying anything you can to distort that.

[Smurf-Herder]

Bite me!

I've been calling him Cupcake for two years. He's practically immune to it now. If you are jealous I figure out something for you too.

What are you? His mother?


Lady Mod

You don't sound appetizing enough.

I didn't know he liked to be called a desert food.

I'm only jealous if you're a hottie.

Otherwise, I don't like being referred to as a quickie snackfood.

And I remember years of being the only conservative on another board. That's why I jump in.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

You don't sound appetizing enough.

I didn't know he liked to be called a desert food.

I'm only jealous if you're a hottie.

Otherwise, I don't like being referred to as a quickie snackfood.

You know? When you are funny, you are very charming. LOL


I don't think he likes it or dislikes the nickname. He tolerates it. Just like I tolerate all the names he calls me. Except racist. I'm not and he has proven himself to be. So that is a bit hypocritical. He can be one, I don't care. Just don't share the joy with me.

I'm pretty sure he prefers desert food to Rapunzel. :winkwink:


Lady Mod

[Bill]

That's the problem with those of you on the left, you think this war is nothing but a political game.

It's a gd war, not a fucking game!

The primary reason this is a good thing Bill, is that it shows A.M.E.R.I.C.A is starting to win this war... Not republicans... Not conservatives... AMERICA Bill.


I see it very differently.

I see it as a republican war, one they treated like a damn game and screwed up beyond all recognition.

Foisted on us by fools, started with lies, conducted by incompetents and crooks, and the greatest shame america has brought upon herself in my lifetime.

And I see completely thru your rhetoric. You are desperately trying to hold onto power, to justify the mistakes your bosses made, so you wear blinders, which keeps you from seeing the things we see.

Then you accuse we who think this war is a travesty of being dishonest.

Well, brother, there's plenty of dishonesty to go around.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Bullshit!

We had the same strategy that everybody was bitching about until Bush replaced Rumsfeld with Gates. Now the strategy is working; and you and others like you are saying anything you can to distort that.

Crash and burn? Great strategy! Was slightly less effective than New way forward or whatever it is this week.

I'm not distorting anything. I call it what it is. A big giant failure. If you sleep better at night believing a fantasy, so be it. When the big blue bubble bursts I'll laugh my ass off and try real hard not to rub it in. But I'm human, don't count on too much charity out of me. God knows, you Neocons haven't shown much towards anyone else.

President Bush Announces Combat Operations in Iraq Have Ended

President George W. Bush
USS Abraham Lincoln
At Sea Off the Coast of San Diego, California
May 1, 2003

http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rm/20203.htm


http://www.famouspictures.org/mag/images/2/26/Mission_Accomplished.jpg

[Smurf-Herder]

You know? When you are funny, you are very charming. LOL


I don't think he likes it or dislikes the nickname. He tolerates it. Just like I tolerate all the names he calls me. Except racist. I'm not and he has proven himself to be. So that is a bit hypocritical. He can be one, I don't care. Just don't share the joy with me.

I'm pretty sure he prefers desert food to Rapunzel. :winkwink:


Lady Mod

Well, thankyou.

You have no idea how charming I can be.

But I only like Nazis when they're in tight corsets.

Just don't do the nickname thing with me, unless I know you under friskier circumstances.

[Bill]

We had the same strategy that everybody was bitching about until Bush replaced Rumsfeld with Gates. Now the strategy is working; .

The iraqis have switched to algerian style tactics of assassination of moderates and collaboraters, according to what I've been reading. They're following classic doctrines, and if they continue to follow them, it will take many years to build enough of an investigative police agency in iraq to put an end to them.

All it would take would be one campaign by the iraqis to reverse the trend and bump the numbers, so it's premature to say it's "working", in the sense that the surge is fixing the problems. You can legitimately claim is that it does look like there's been an increase in security recently.

Which is a very good thing. But winning the occupation requires a lot more than that.

[Smurf-Herder]

Crash and burn? Great strategy! Was slightly less effective than New way forward or whatever it is this week.

I'm not distorting anything. I call it what it is. A big giant failure. If you sleep better at night believing a fantasy, so be it. When the big blue bubble bursts I'll laugh my ass off and try real hard not to rub it in. But I'm human, don't count on too much charity out of me. God knows, you Neocons haven't shown much towards anyone else.

President Bush Announces Combat Operations in Iraq Have Ended

President George W. Bush
USS Abraham Lincoln
At Sea Off the Coast of San Diego, California
May 1, 2003

http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rm/20203.htm


http://www.famouspictures.org/mag/images/2/26/Mission_Accomplished.jpg

That is such an old ploy. Combat operations were over - with the remnants of Saddam's army. The mission of removing Saddam was accomplished. We are in a different phase now - we established a democratic government and we're seeing it through it's growth to full independence.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Just don't do the nickname thing with me, unless I know you under friskier circumstances.

Never happen. I have higher standards that your kind. Charming or not. I don't play in slums.

:)

[Smurf-Herder]

The iraqis have switched to algerian style tactics of assassination of moderates and collaboraters, according to what I've been reading. They're following classic doctrines, and if they continue to follow them, it will take many years to build enough of an investigative police agency in iraq to put an end to them.

All it would take would be one campaign by the iraqis to reverse the trend and bump the numbers, so it's premature to say it's "working", in the sense that the surge is fixing the problems. You can legitimately claim is that it does look like there's been an increase in security recently.

Which is a very good thing. But winning the occupation requires a lot more than that.

That's my point. Security has increased and the pressure is being kept up against insurgents getting any kind of organized foundation restarted. The political end is up to the Iraqis.

[radioguy]

I see it very differently.

I see it as a republican war, one they treated like a damn game and screwed up beyond all recognition.

Foisted on us by fools, started with lies, conducted by incompetents and crooks, and the greatest shame america has brought upon herself in my lifetime.

And I see completely thru your rhetoric. You are desperately trying to hold onto power, to justify the mistakes your bosses made, so you wear blinders, which keeps you from seeing the things we see.

Then you accuse we who think this war is a travesty of being dishonest.

Well, brother, there's plenty of dishonesty to go around.

Bill, you need to get a grip old man.

The figures I posted are real. They show positive progress for the United States Military in Iraq, not the conservative army. These improvements mean nothing in the political realm, because Bush isn't running for office.

Can't you all on the left bring yourselves to support America in this war? Is that so hard to do? You people are still Americans, right? Or do you put your political ideology ahead of your nationality?

Replies like yours Bill, demonstrate why the often heard line "When America wins, the democrats lose... And when America loses, the democrats win" is so painfully true. How else can you explain why those of you on the left can look at the reality of how this conflict has turned dramatically in our favor, and still proclaim we are either losing or have already lost?

Get with the program and put your country ahead of you politics.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

That is such an old ploy. Combat operations were over - with the remnants of Saddam's army. The mission of removing Saddam was accomplished. We are in a different phase now - we established a democratic government and we're seeing it through it's growth to full independence.

My my, he only made THAT distinction when the war was decidedly NOT over.

You are such a jokester.


Much as I would like to stay and play, I must get up to go to work in a few hours. Not all of us are old :oldman: and retired.


Ciao!

Lady Mod

[Smurf-Herder]

Never happen. I have higher standards that your kind. Charming or not. I don't play in slums.

:)

Slums?

Well, I have high standards too.

And you're a little too Nurse Cratchit-ish for me.

[Smurf-Herder]

My my, he only made THAT distinction when the war was decidedly NOT over.

You are such a jokester.


Much as I would like to stay and play, I must get up to go to work in a few hours. Not all of us are old :oldman: and retired.


Ciao!

Lady Mod

No, Cheney even made that distinction back then.

BTW, I'm 47. Not too old and retired.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Slums?

Well, I have high standards too.

And you're a little too Nurse Cratchit-ish for me.

Alrighty then....whatever you say Hoss!

http://oldhorsetailsnake.blogspot.com/2005/02/lets-operate.html


Cutworm: "I need you to drop your drawers so's we can get a look at your w**g. After we take out your prostitute we need to put a catheter in your weenie so your bladder will have a way of getting rid of your piss and vinegar. So drop 'em."

Hoss drops drawers.

Nurse Cratchit: "My God that's tiny. My c**t is bigger than your w**g. Wanna see it?"

Cutworm: "This presents a problem. We don't have any tubing that small. Maybe I can drill a hole into some 6-pound-test fishing line..."

:lmao2:

[Smurf-Herder]

Alrighty then....whatever you say Hoss!

http://oldhorsetailsnake.blogspot.com/2005/02/lets-operate.html



:lmao2:

Funny.

Just out of curiosity, how old are you?

[Bill]

Hey, what the fuck, you scam guys?

What part of "some personal attacks are accepted but don't make a pattern of it" are you having a hard time getting?

here's the formal ban warning.

no patterns of bickering, no endless gratuitous insults, I do not have enough time in my freekin goddam day to police this shit.

I will ban like a powercrazed weasel if I have to start worrying about the fucking slander and libel on this fucking board.

[Smurf-Herder]

Sorry.

I just started sticking up for radioguy and the conversation took off. I don't know any of these people and never heard of the scam board before I came here.

[Independent Harry]

There is a baseline. It's the numbers before the troop surge went into effect.

Nearly every statistic indicates the troop surge is having a positive effect.

Civilian deaths are down...
Violent attacks are down...
Attacks during the Islamic holy month are down...
American troop deaths are down...

You can only make an assessment based on how things were in the months before the surge went into effect, not using yearly comparisons.

It woudl be great if this worked and if we got a president that was intent on continuing the war and we were able to get out soon because of it. But here's the questions i have, if the stopped releasing the cilvilian death rates, how do we know they are down?

[radioguy]

Hey, what the fuck, you scam guys?

What part of "some personal attacks are accepted but don't make a pattern of it" are you having a hard time getting?

here's the formal ban warning.

no patterns of bickering, no endless gratuitous insults, I do not have enough time in my freekin goddam day to police this shit.

I will ban like a powercrazed weasel if I have to start worrying about the fucking slander and libel on this fucking board.

You wasn't talking to me were ya Bill? She has been baiting me, but I have refrained from confronting her.

If you were talking to Smurf Bill, he's not from scam.

[Bill]

If you were talking to Smurf Bill, he's not from scam.

My misunderstanding - yes, in this case I meant the back and forth between smurf and lady, so the scam reference doesn't apply.

Sorry about the mistaken reference, but please, everyone, keep in mind the idea of avoiding patterns of personal attacks.

It things get heated, try to relax and take a break.

[Moby]

Yeah, a bunch of you predicted all that before Bush even got in office. :talktothehand:
Yup. You can search the Internet and find my old posts on a few boards dating back to 2002 if you really care. That is if the boards kept those talks.

Some people look at a people's history before they vote.

[Smurf-Herder]

My misunderstanding - yes, in this case I meant the back and forth between smurf and lady, so the scam reference doesn't apply.

Sorry about the mistaken reference, but please, everyone, keep in mind the idea of avoiding patterns of personal attacks.

It things get heated, try to relax and take a break.

I was actually trying to flirt with her, in a political confrontational way.

I know, it sounds weird.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Hey, what the fuck, you scam guys?

What part of "some personal attacks are accepted but don't make a pattern of it" are you having a hard time getting?

here's the formal ban warning.

no patterns of bickering, no endless gratuitous insults, I do not have enough time in my freekin goddam day to police this shit.

I will ban like a powercrazed weasel if I have to start worrying about the fucking slander and libel on this fucking board.

Smurf and I are flirting. We aren't attacking. We are having a great time.

Can't you see chemistry at work when it's working?

The black leather references should have given it away Bill.


Lady Mod

[LadyMod at scam.com]

I was actually trying to flirt with her, in a political confrontational way.

I know, it sounds weird.

LOL, me too. I guess they don't get it.

.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Funny.

Just out of curiosity, how old are you?

48. respect your slightly older elders. ;)

[LadyMod at scam.com]

You wasn't talking to me were ya Bill? She has been baiting me, but I have refrained from confronting her.

If you were talking to Smurf Bill, he's not from scam.

Go puke in a toilet would you? When are you going to start debating grim?

That's what the baiting is all about. Stop whining and start debating. I can't bite you here. :kiss:

Geez!

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Yup. You can search the Internet and find my old posts on a few boards dating back to 2002 if you really care. That is if the boards kept those talks.

Some people look at a people's history before they vote.

LOL, you should try mine. sojustask

Pages and pages. AND pages.

[Smurf-Herder]

LOL, me too. I guess they don't get it.

.

Yeah, I could tell right off you can be a naughty little vixen ;)


And even though I disargee on the politics, I can still appreciate your enthusiasm. A good debate means nothing without dedication on both sides.

[Smurf-Herder]

48. respect your slightly older elders. ;)

I had a feeling you were in my age group.

Still thinking about that tight corset :cool:

[asroc]

It doesn't really do any good to celebrate this until you know it's actually a trend instead of a one/two month change. This coming off the heels of the bloodiest summer in the entire war is all the more reason to view this cautiously instead of trumpeting it as directly caused by policy.

[radioguy]

Go puke in a toilet would you? When are you going to start debating grim?

That's what the baiting is all about. Stop whining and start debating. I can't bite you here. :kiss:

Geez!

FUCK YOU BITCH!!

Get off my back you cunt!

[LadyMod at scam.com]

FUCK YOU BITCH!!

Get off my back you cunt!

So much for not cussing. LOL.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

It doesn't really do any good to celebrate this until you know it's actually a trend instead of a one/two month change. This coming off the heels of the bloodiest summer in the entire war is all the more reason to view this cautiously instead of trumpeting it as directly caused by policy.

If you like you should listen to Paul Harvey today. His comment on the fewer numbers was a gem.

We increased our troops by 30,000 more people there to receive only 65 fewer deaths in the month of September.

www.paulharvey.com


Lady Mod

[Moby]

It doesn't really do any good to celebrate this until you know it's actually a trend instead of a one/two month change. This coming off the heels of the bloodiest summer in the entire war is all the more reason to view this cautiously instead of trumpeting it as directly caused by policy.
After 4 years of, "Oh, we told you things were getting better but they're actually worse" a single month of good news is the best that the admin could possibly hope for.

I do hope the trend continues but this is the first time anything positive has happened.

[Kinky Jones]

Bill, you need to get a grip old man.

The figures I posted are real. They show positive progress for the United States Military in Iraq, not the conservative army. These improvements mean nothing in the political realm, because Bush isn't running for office.

Can't you all on the left bring yourselves to support America in this war? Is that so hard to do? You people are still Americans, right? Or do you put your political ideology ahead of your nationality?

Replies like yours Bill, demonstrate why the often heard line "When America wins, the democrats lose... And when America loses, the democrats win" is so painfully true. How else can you explain why those of you on the left can look at the reality of how this conflict has turned dramatically in our favor, and still proclaim we are either losing or have already lost?

Get with the program and put your country ahead of you politics.

put human lives ahead of your politics, rummy and his idiots sat around as Iraq went to shit and didnt do anything, dubya had to boot him and revamp the entire structure of the war and it took the dems gaining a tiny check back to force the republicans to change tactics and whadya know it might be working, too bad they didnt do it 3 years ago a lot of lives on both sides would have been saved :(

the dems had no say in this war once they got bamboozled into giving bush war powers by being gullible fucktards with no spines, now that the reps are forced to work with dems things are changing, they are changing because people are clinging to their political careers by the skin of their teeth on one side, wonder which one it is??? the one that had to be forced to change by the American voters

apply some common sense to the situation: we went in and won hearts and minds by riddiing them of a dickhead dictator, then pulled out the people who actually won them ASAP and disbanded the entire country not just the dickhead, bunkered down in the green zone and policed the violence with quick reaction forces coming to the rescue of whoever cried for it which in turn pissed of both sides of the Iraqi population... we are now back out in the population winning the hearts and minds, the beginning of the surge the numbers went up, now hopefully it's working and it isn't numbers fudging by the people who know they might be out on their asses come election time, one good month of numbers and people are happy with this war? :disbelief:

[Bill]

FUCK YOU BITCH!!

Get off my back you cunt!

Radioguy, I'd like you to stop doing this kind of thing.

I don't mind the "fuck you" or "get off my back".

But, when you throw in words like cunt, you're going over the line.

These aren't political slurs, they are purely personal, and sexual. If you said stuff like this on the job, you could easily get fired, because it creates a threatening and harassing environment.

As things stand now, I support your right to use an attack like "racist", because it has polical content, and can be debated reasonably.

If I'm going to give myself the right to call people fascists and racists, I have to allow the other side the right to use those same political slurs.

But you're an adult male, you should know not to use personal sexual slurs against women in public space, no matter how attacked you feel.

Is it one hundred percent fair? No, maybe not, because a woman can get away with calling a man a dick more easily than a man can get away with calling a woman a cunt.

But, the "reasonable man" standard applies, and sexual derogations are held to threaten women more than they threaten men in today's society.

[Smurf-Herder]

It doesn't really do any good to celebrate this until you know it's actually a trend instead of a one/two month change. This coming off the heels of the bloodiest summer in the entire war is all the more reason to view this cautiously instead of trumpeting it as directly caused by policy.

Of course, we have to keep up with it. But it does look promising. The bloodiest summer did involve offensives on both sides. And just looking at it objectively, since our offensives, which followed insurgent activity increases, the trend looks good so far.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Of course, we have to keep up with it. But it does look promising. The bloodiest summer did involve offensives on both sides. And just looking at it objectively, since our offensives, which followed insurgent activity increases, the trend looks good so far.

After sending 30,000 more soldiers and bombing the hell out of the enemy it should.

Would have been real surprised if the numbers hadn't come down from the 3 months. It still doesn't make this a trend.


:taunt:

[Americanadian]

FUCK YOU BITCH!!

Get off my back you cunt!

My my, the chosen one fell out of his cage today. Would someone please help this noble and civilized monkey make it back to his cage so he can resume his former pose? It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

http://www.animals.vaty.net/uploaded_images/funny_baby_monkey-783867.jpg

[LadyMod at scam.com]

FUCK YOU BITCH!!

Get off my back you cunt!

My my, the chosen one fell out of his cage today. Would someone please help this noble and civilized monkey make it back to his cage so he can resume his former pose? It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

http://www.angelfire.com/oh/Monkeys2/images/stick.jpg

Be careful with that stick Grimey. We wouldn't want you to induce an enema prematurely.

Don't lower yourself to his level. I want to remember you as a real man, not a slavering mongrel.

:winkwink:

[Smurf-Herder]

After sending 30,000 more soldiers and bombing the hell out of the enemy it should.

Would have been real surprised if the numbers hadn't come down from the 3 months. It still doesn't make this a trend.


:taunt:


But a trend is still a trend. Whatever period of time it's plotted over, it's still a trend for that time period.

So, your point boils down to not judging without seeing what the trend is over a longer period of time?

(this is not 1984 ....... any longer :) ... the word "trend" still means what it says)

[Americanadian]

Don't lower yourself to his level. I want to remember you as a real man, not a slavering mongrel.

:winkwink:

Heh..heh..:D

I was feeling a little generous and complimentary this evening. Make note of the "Noble" and "Civilized" comment. It's a challenge to his subconscious in that black hole in his cranium he would refer to as a brain. :winkwink:
He can elevate his status in the animal kingdom with some effort. All he gotta do is try. :winkwink:

[Americanadian]

Don't lower yourself to his level. I want to remember you as a real man, not a slavering mongrel.

:winkwink:

Hmm...I had to edit my post since the website photo disappeared. Oh well. The new one is more applicable. :D

[LadyMod at scam.com]

But a trend is still a trend. Whatever period of time it's plotted over, it's still a trend for that time period.

So, your point boils down to not judging without seeing what the trend is over a longer period of time?

(this is not 1984 ....... any longer :) ... the word "trend" still means what it says)

Oh yippee! A 2 month trend. Let's break out the confetti and wine and celebrate. The surge is working.

I wasn't aware that this was comparable to the fashion season. In this month and out the next.

6 months of continuous improvement and downward and I would say we might be in a trend worth gloating over. But I think Al Qaeda is just regroupping.


Time will tell.

Lady Mod

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Hmm...I had to edit my post since the website photo disappeared. Oh well. The new one is more applicable. :D

It's a lot funnier. :lmao2:

[Smurf-Herder]

Oh yippee! A 2 month trend. Let's break out the confetti and wine and celebrate. The surge is working.

I wasn't aware that this was comparable to the fashion season. In this month and out the next.

6 months of continuous improvement and downward and I would say we might be in a trend worth gloating over. But I think Al Qaeda is just regroupping.


Time will tell.

Lady Mod

I'm sure they are.

Iran supposedly has an agreement with Iraq to stop supplying, training and arming Shiite militias. And now we're talking with Al-Sadr's people. But that could be a fake-out. We have to be prepared for anything.


BTW, the main idea of why the surge is working is, we're occupying areas wherever Al-Qaeda concentrates so they can't come back; and hitting them everytime we see them trying to regroup, taking that area and holding it; until they have nowhere to go. We have over 350,000 trained Iraqis to help now.

The 30,000 extra troops added roughly 33% to our actual combat forces in Iraq, giving us the greater ability to maneuver and launch offensive operations.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

The 30,000 extra troops added roughly 33% to our actual combat forces in Iraq, giving us the greater ability to maneuver and launch offensive operations.

But they are reaching the ends of their tours and then it's home for a year.


AlQaeda could be regrouping someplace else. Just keeping us busy enough in Iraq to distract us.

They are very good at that. It's worked every time.


Lady Mod

[Americanadian]

I'm sure they are.

Iran supposedly has an agreement with Iraq to stop supplying, training and arming Shiite militias. And now we're talking with Al-Sadr's people. But that could be a fake-out. We have to be prepared for anything.


BTW, the main idea of why the surge is working is, we're occupying areas wherever Al-Qaeda concentrates so they can't come back; and hitting them everytime we see them trying to regroup, taking that area and holding it; until they have nowhere to go. We have over 350,000 trained Iraqis to help now.

The 30,000 extra troops added roughly 33% to our actual combat forces in Iraq, giving us the greater ability to maneuver and launch offensive operations.

Why wouldn't Iran want to prolong the American occupation/calamity in Iraq? It may very well result in no confrontation staged against Iran if it continues to be a disaster. Iran isn't the pushover that Iraq was.

[Smurf-Herder]

But they are reaching the ends of their tours and then it's home for a year.


AlQaeda could be regrouping someplace else. Just keeping us busy enough in Iraq to distract us.

They are very good at that. It's worked every time.


Lady Mod


Ah, but there will be an additional 30,000 Iraqis fully trained by the time they come home. And it goes up from there, every year. So the same overall force strength can be maintained.

[Smurf-Herder]

Why wouldn't Iran want to prolong the American occupation/calamity in Iraq? It may very well result in no confrontation staged against Iran if it continues to be a disaster. Iran isn't the pushover that Iraq was.

They want us out.

No, of course not. Iran's more dangerous.