Iran shelling northern Iraq for over a month

[Smurf-Herder]

KRG condemns Iranian shelling of border areas
http://www.krg.org/articles/detail.asp?lngnr=12&smap=02010100&rnr=223&anr=20405

"During the past few weeks the forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran have been shelling the border areas of the Kurdistan Region in Iraq. This shelling has resulted in the displacement of thousands of villagers, the disruption of their lives, and the destruction of several villages. It has also inflicted great loss and destruction and spread fear among the people of Kurdistan.

The KRG strongly condemns this unjust and unwarranted military action which contravenes international law and disregards neighbourly relations. It is a clear violation of the sovereignty of Iraq and the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) considers it an act of aggression.

The KRG calls upon the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran to immediately end this shelling and its threats. At the same time, the KRG requests that the federal government in Baghdad take a clear position on this violation of Iraq's borders, which is causing disruption and confusion to the lives of the people of the Kurdistan Region.

We also call upon the Multinational Forces in Iraq and the United Nations Security Council to address the issue and stop these unjust attacks.

The KRG restates its commitment to good neighbourly relations on the basis of mutual respect and common interest."

I think we need to deal with this.

[Independent Harry]

uhoh looks like the US war propoganda machine is gearing up again...here we go, please keep all arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times or you may loose them do to heavy IED fire.

[Smurf-Herder]

No. Actually the US hasn't been saying anything about it.

I've been following this story since August; and the Iraqis have been the ones screaming about being shelled by Iran. The Red Crescent and International Red Cross have been housing thousands of refugees in tents, but somehow this isn't being covered much in the MSM press - at least not on TV.

Shelling Near Iranian Border Is Forcing Iraqi Kurds to Flee
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/12/AR2007091202720_3.html

[Linkster]

These are the same rebels that are killing Turkish residents - and they think they have a right to complain when their little separatist group gets shelled - who knows from where - it could be the non-separatist Kurds or even the Turkish Kurds - I hate it when people just pick a side and then blame everything on one other country to inflate thats countrys status

It would be very unusual for the Iranians to shell these guys as these are the same guys that Iran supported against Saddam during the Iran Iraq war - which led to them being gassed during the war

[Smurf-Herder]

These are the same rebels that are killing Turkish residents - and they think they have a right to complain when their little separatist group gets shelled - who knows from where - it could be the non-separatist Kurds or even the Turkish Kurds - I hate it when people just pick a side and then blame everything on one other country to inflate thats countrys status

It would be very unusual for the Iranians to shell these guys as these are the same guys that Iran supported against Saddam during the Iran Iraq war - which led to them being gassed during the war

We're talking about entire villages, being shelled by Iran.

Iraqi foreign minister demands that Iran stop shelling of Kurdish area in north
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/04/africa/04shelling.php

[Bill]

All the middle east hates the kurds.

The kurds have been hated for several thousand years, as I understand it.

The kurds are hated way more than the shia.

[Linkster]

I dont understand why this is all of a sudden new "news" - heck Iran was shooting missles at this part of Iraq before we ever invaded - back in 2001 they shot 70 missles into that area - they are tryinhg to destry the MKO terrorist group that works and trains in the Kurdish areas and then goes on raids into Iran - I believe the missle attack back in 2001 was a response to when the Kurdish supported MKO went into Tehran and set off grenade launchers into buildings - sounds like they are only responding the same way the US would if it had a terrorist attack

[Smurf-Herder]

I dont understand why this is all of a sudden new "news" - heck Iran was shooting missles at this part of Iraq before we ever invaded - back in 2001 they shot 70 missles into that area - they are tryinhg to destry the MKO terrorist group that works and trains in the Kurdish areas and then goes on raids into Iran - I believe the missle attack back in 2001 was a response to when the Kurdish supported MKO went into Tehran and set off grenade launchers into buildings - sounds like they are only responding the same way the US would if it had a terrorist attack

First of all, under the same premise we should be attacking Iraqi Shiite militia training camps in Iran.

Secondly, that was 2001. We are now assisting the new Iraqi government; and are responsible for securing their territorial integrity. We have to prevent attacks on Iran by the Kurdish groups, but also defend Iraq.

[Linkster]

I totally agree that we should be attacking the shia training camps - thats why in the other threads I have been maintaining that we dont have enough soldiers on the ground (and in the air) to do the job correctly.

I understand the need to defend the overall Iraqi government - but I think we are putting ourselves in bad predicament when we try to help out the Kurds as they basically already have their federal government set up - and are now trying to gain more territory by attacking outside their boundaries in Turkey and Iran - something they have done historically for as long as theyve been around.
Remember these are the same tribes and states that Churchill finally had to use poisonous gas on to bring under control back in the 1920s (or at least he attempted to)

[Smurf-Herder]

I totally agree that we should be attacking the shia training camps - thats why in the other threads I have been maintaining that we dont have enough soldiers on the ground (and in the air) to do the job correctly.

I understand the need to defend the overall Iraqi government - but I think we are putting ourselves in bad predicament when we try to help out the Kurds as they basically already have their federal government set up - and are now trying to gain more territory by attacking outside their boundaries in Turkey and Iran - something they have done historically for as long as theyve been around.
Remember these are the same tribes and states that Churchill finally had to use poisonous gas on to bring under control back in the 1920s (or at least he attempted to)

But Iran doesn't appear to be targeting terrorist camps. They're causing ethnic cleansing of the border area; attacking whole villages of innocent civilians. We have a responsibility to protect Iraqi citizens. All Kurds are not responsible; and this is considered an act of aggression by the government of Iraq.

[Linkster]

I thought this was the KRG (which is the Kurds own federal government) not the overall Iraqi governement that was making all of these accusations - I hadnt heard it out of the baghdad centralized government yet - so made the assumption it was just a continuation of history of the Kurds :thumbsup:

[Smurf-Herder]

I thought this was the KRG (which is the Kurds own federal government) not the overall Iraqi governement that was making all of these accusations - I hadnt heard it out of the baghdad centralized government yet - so made the assumption it was just a continuation of history of the Kurds :thumbsup:

I posted a link to the story earlier of the Iraqi Foreign Minister demanding that Iran stop the shelling.

[Linkster]

Yep - I saw that and these statements were just reminders - at least to me - of things that have been going on up there since 20 years ago:

He said the Iranian foreign minister, Manouchehr Mottaki, described the shelling as Iran's response to guerrilla attacks against it by a group that is opposed to the Iranian government and is believed to have bases on the Iraqi side of the border.

Members of that group, Pezak, have claimed responsibility for attacks inside Iran, and they are believed to have shot down at least one Iranian helicopter in recent months. But Zebari said the shelling of the villages was indiscriminate and was achieving little against Pezak positions, and he made clear that Iraqi patience was wearing thin with the bombardment, which has taken place intermittently for about two weeks.

"In a normal relationship between two countries, this amounts to an act of aggression," Zebari said.

Although Zebari conceded in the interview that the conflict in Iraq made this time far from ordinary, his words were likely to be sobering against the backdrop of the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s, during which millions died.

In a news briefing during President George W. Bush's visit to Iraq on Monday, Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki also discussed the situation in the north and suggested that Turkey too was shelling across the border into Iraq.

Before Turkish elections last month, Turkey's military staged an enormous troop buildup on its border and by some accounts was on the verge of a major attack, citing incursions by Kurdish armed groups from Iraq into Turkey. Some of those groups are believed to favor an independent Kurdish nation that would include parts of Kurd-dominated southern Turkey.


This crap is a distraction really as it really is nothing new and shouldnt be associated with some attempt by iran to "attack Iraq" and definitely shouldnt be played in the media that way

[Smurf-Herder]

Yep - I saw that and these statements were just reminders - at least to me - of things that have been going on up there since 20 years ago:

He said the Iranian foreign minister, Manouchehr Mottaki, described the shelling as Iran's response to guerrilla attacks against it by a group that is opposed to the Iranian government and is believed to have bases on the Iraqi side of the border.

Members of that group, Pezak, have claimed responsibility for attacks inside Iran, and they are believed to have shot down at least one Iranian helicopter in recent months. But Zebari said the shelling of the villages was indiscriminate and was achieving little against Pezak positions, and he made clear that Iraqi patience was wearing thin with the bombardment, which has taken place intermittently for about two weeks.

"In a normal relationship between two countries, this amounts to an act of aggression," Zebari said.

Although Zebari conceded in the interview that the conflict in Iraq made this time far from ordinary, his words were likely to be sobering against the backdrop of the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s, during which millions died.

In a news briefing during President George W. Bush's visit to Iraq on Monday, Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki also discussed the situation in the north and suggested that Turkey too was shelling across the border into Iraq.

Before Turkish elections last month, Turkey's military staged an enormous troop buildup on its border and by some accounts was on the verge of a major attack, citing incursions by Kurdish armed groups from Iraq into Turkey. Some of those groups are believed to favor an independent Kurdish nation that would include parts of Kurd-dominated southern Turkey.


This crap is a distraction really as it really is nothing new and shouldnt be associated with some attempt by iran to "attack Iraq" and definitely shouldnt be played in the media that way

Considering all that's going on with Iran, that can't be taken for granted.

And may I quote a section of what you quoted?:

"But Zebari said the shelling of the villages was indiscriminate and was achieving little against Pezak positions, and he made clear that Iraqi patience was wearing thin with the bombardment, which has taken place intermittently for about two weeks.

"In a normal relationship between two countries, this amounts to an act of aggression," Zebari said."

And there are talks going on with Turkey about their Kurd problem.

There have been other instances with Iran crossing the border, where it didn't involve the Kurds:

Attack Iran, US chief ordered British
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/06/30/wiran30.xml

A Deadly U.S.-Iran Firefight
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1605487,00.html

Iranian forces crossed Iraqi border: report
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070625232254.etwt6z5u&show_article=1

[Linkster]

Sure - I was just quoting from the link you posted :)

I guess my point and something that US citizens just arent really aware of - and unfortunately gets pulled kinda out of context - is that these types of skirmishes and border fighting have been going on since the 1920s - its nothing new - but Im afraid that some will try to make more out of them than really exists there

[Smurf-Herder]

Sure - I was just quoting from the link you posted :)

I guess my point and something that US citizens just arent really aware of - and unfortunately gets pulled kinda out of context - is that these types of skirmishes and border fighting have been going on since the 1920s - its nothing new - but Im afraid that some will try to make more out of them than really exists there

What border skirmishes?

They're shelling civilian villages, with thousands homeless.

I think you're making less out of it than exists there; taking it out of context. In context to me, I see a new government, that we are responsible for protecting, being shelled by the same country who provides weapons and training to local Shiites to kill our troops. My son almost being one of them, twice.

IMO, saying this is nothing different than in the past is taking it out of context.

[Linkster]

Sorry if it sounded like I was minimizing it - it is a problem - however - I think that you are putting the overall government of Iraq as who is being attacked, and as far as I know and have seen from the Kurds - they just barely consider themselves Iraqis - they have their own Federal government that runs their own "country" and have been having border disputes with Turkey and Iran (as well as even Iraq) for a long time. The problem that really exists - and has for ages - is that the Kurds have been split into anywhere from 3 to 5 different countries over the last 100 years - the part that you are referring to in your links is the part that became a virtual independant state from Iraq in 1991 although 4 years later they almost collapsed due to infighting - which occured at the same time as the Kurds occupying the Turkish part of their country got involved in a civil war in Turkey.

To say that it is a part of the Iraqi government really is a pipedream that the US would like to believe - while they will have a representative in the government like they always have - they run their own affairs and fight their own battles - The US just doesnt seem to understand that yet.

[Smurf-Herder]

Sorry if it sounded like I was minimizing it - it is a problem - however - I think that you are putting the overall government of Iraq as who is being attacked, and as far as I know and have seen from the Kurds - they just barely consider themselves Iraqis - they have their own Federal government that runs their own "country" and have been having border disputes with Turkey and Iran (as well as even Iraq) for a long time. The problem that really exists - and has for ages - is that the Kurds have been split into anywhere from 3 to 5 different countries over the last 100 years - the part that you are referring to in your links is the part that became a virtual independant state from Iraq in 1991 although 4 years later they almost collapsed due to infighting - which occured at the same time as the Kurds occupying the Turkish part of their country got involved in a civil war in Turkey.

To say that it is a part of the Iraqi government really is a pipedream that the US would like to believe - while they will have a representative in the government like they always have - they run their own affairs and fight their own battles - The US just doesnt seem to understand that yet.

It's the principle involved.

They are citizens of the new Iraq. They have to work with the present government. We invaded and set up that new government. And one of our obligations is to protect the sovereignty of the current government and the lives of it's people as much as possible. Past history is irrelevant under these circumstances.

To say otherwise could be drawn out to say Iran has a right to outright invade, as long as they only invade the Kurdistan region. Do you think letting thousands of Kurds be driven from their homes by an aggressive neighbor will help us win hearts and minds? I think it opens the door for others to question who we'll leave hanging next.

[Linkster]

I guess the reason that I seem to protest this a little is that I really still have a question in my mind as to whether they consider themselves a part of the "new government" - I do understand what you are saying, I just keep thinking of their history and even things they have posted on their current government website. from things like they have their own president, prime minister and parliment - and their office of foreign affairs has a representative (ambassador) to the Iraq government.

[Smurf-Herder]

I guess the reason that I seem to protest this a little is that I really still have a question in my mind as to whether they consider themselves a part of the "new government" - I do understand what you are saying, I just keep thinking of their history and even things they have posted on their current government website. from things like they have their own president, prime minister and parliment - and their office of foreign affairs has a representative (ambassador) to the Iraq government.

Unless they officially split, they are legally still part of Iraq.

[Frankg]

Oh , so NOW the Turks want to invade Iraq !!!??

Where were the Turks 4 years ago ?

They wouldnt even let us use thier country as a staging area that why we had to come all the all up from Kuwait

Srcrew the Turks , we should defend Kurdish people , they were probably our closest allies during the invasion

[Linkster]

well - and thats kind of the problem - Iraqi Kurdistan since 1991 has been an independant country - has its own flag and national anthem etc - they were given autonomy by Saddam after he withdrew his troops when the Kurds rebelled back then - and have conducted their own government ever since - they did agree to have representation in the overall Iraqi government - primarily to make sure they got their slice of the money pie - since they own a lot of oil fields.
There was a row recently when they went out on their own and cut a deal with Hunt Oil out of Texas and have not backed away from that - they basically told the Baghdad government to stick it.

[Smurf-Herder]

well - and thats kind of the problem - Iraqi Kurdistan since 1991 has been an independant country - has its own flag and national anthem etc - they were given autonomy by Saddam after he withdrew his troops when the Kurds rebelled back then - and have conducted their own government ever since - they did agree to have representation in the overall Iraqi government - primarily to make sure they got their slice of the money pie - since they own a lot of oil fields.
There was a row recently when they went out on their own and cut a deal with Hunt Oil out of Texas and have not backed away from that - they basically told the Baghdad government to stick it.

Hunt really made a mess of things. Aren't they the ones who artificially inflated the Silver market years ago, to make a killing financially?

[Smurf-Herder]

Oh , so NOW the Turks want to invade Iraq !!!??

Where were the Turks 4 years ago ?

They wouldnt even let us use thier country as a staging area that why we had to come all the all up from Kuwait

Srcrew the Turks , we should defend Kurdish people , they were probably our closest allies during the invasion

The damned Turks left us hanging, with half our troops tied up in the north; in the end not being able to come down for a pincer movement. Many Iraqi generals and others were able to get out of Iraq before we closed in.

[Linkster]

Hunt really made a mess of things. Aren't they the ones who artificially inflated the Silver market years ago, to make a killing financially?

Not sure about that - the only memories I seem to remember are told in this little clip from another biography:

Madeleine Brown later gave an interview on the television show, A Current Affair where she claimed that on the 21st November, 1963, she was at the home of Clint Murchison. Others at the meeting included Hunt, J. Edgar Hoover, Clyde Tolson, John J. McCloy and Richard Nixon. At the end of the evening Lyndon B. Johnson arrived. Brown said in this interview: "Tension filled the room upon his arrival. The group immediately went behind closed doors. A short time later Lyndon, anxious and red-faced, reappeared. I knew how secretly Lyndon operated. Therefore I said nothing... not even that I was happy to see him. Squeezing my hand so hard, it felt crushed from the pressure, he spoke with a grating whisper, a quiet growl, into my ear, not a love message, but one I'll always remember: "After tomorrow those goddamn Kennedys will never embarrass me again - that's no threat - that's a promise."

Brown's account was supported by former CIA agent Robert D. Morrow who wrote in the book, First Hand Knowledge: How I participated in the CIA-Murder of President Kennedy, "On the eve of the assassination, Hoover and Nixon attended a meeting together at the Dallas home of oil baron Clint Murchison. Among the subjects discussed at this meeting were the political futures of Hoover and Nixon in the event President Kennedy was assassinated."