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Bobs.Lil.Girl
09-29-2007, 08:29 PM
How do the people get what we want when they stack the deck against us? :mad:



The American Conservative

General Petraeus wins a battle in Washington—if not in Baghdad.
http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_09_24/article2.html
by Andrew J. Bacevich

In common parlance, the phrase “political general” is an epithet, the inverse of the warrior or frontline soldier. In any serious war, with big issues at stake, to assign command to a political general is to court disaster—so at least most Americans believe. But in fact, at the highest levels, successful command requires a sophisticated grasp of politics. At the summit, war and politics merge and become inextricably intertwined. A general in chief not fully attuned to the latter will not master the former.

George Washington, U.S. Grant, and Dwight D. Eisenhower were all “political generals” in the very best sense of the term. Their claims to immortality rest not on their battlefield exploits—Washington actually won few battles, and Grant achieved his victories through brute force rather than finesse, while Ike hardly qualifies as a field commander at all—but on the skill they demonstrated in translating military power into political advantage. Each of these three genuinely great soldiers possessed a sophisticated appreciation for war’s political dimension.

David Petraeus is a political general. Yet in presenting his recent assessment of the Iraq War and in describing the “way forward,” Petraeus demonstrated that he is a political general of the worst kind—one who indulges in the politics of accommodation that is Washington’s bread and butter but has thereby deferred a far more urgent political imperative, namely, bringing our military policies into harmony with our political purposes.

From the very beginning of the Iraq War, such harmony has been absent. The war’s military and political aspects have been badly out of synch. (In this regard, the hackneyed comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam are tragically apt.) The failure to plan for an occupation, the wildly inflated expectations of Iraq’s rapid transformation into a liberal democracy, Donald Rumsfeld’s stubborn refusal to acknowledge the insurgency’s existence until long after it had begun, the deeply flawed kick-down-the-door campaign that ensued once Rumsfeld could no longer deny reality: all of these meant that from the outset, the exertions of U.S. troops, however great, tended to be at odds with our stated political intentions. Our actions were counterproductive.

The Petraeus-Crocker hearings found Petraeus in a position to resolve that problem. Over the previous eight months, a discredited president had effectively abdicated responsibility for managing the war. “I trust David Petraeus” became George W. Bush’s mantra, suggesting an astonishing level of presidential deference. Sometime in early 2007, the task of formulating basic strategy for Iraq had effectively migrated from Washington to Baghdad, passing from the office of the commander in chief to the headquarters of the senior field commander. The president made it clear that he intended to takes his cues from his general. Military judgment would inform, even determine, political decisions.

The general has now made his call, and President Bush has endorsed it: the surge having succeeded (so at least we are assured), it will now be curtailed. The war will continue, albeit on a marginally smaller scale. As events develop, it just might become smaller still. Only time will tell.

Petraeus has chosen a middle course, carefully crafted to cause the least amount of consternation among various Washington constituencies he is eager to accommodate. This is the politics of give and take, of horse trading, of putting lipstick on a pig. Ultimately, it is the politics of avoidance.

A political general in the mold of Washington or Grant would have taken a different course, using his moment in the spotlight not to minimize consternation but to stir it up to the maximum extent. He would have capitalized on his status as man of the hour to oblige civilian leaders, both in Congress and in the executive branch, to do what they have not done since the Iraq War began—namely, their jobs. He would have insisted upon the president and the Congress making decisions that wartime summons them—and not military commanders—to make. Instead, Petraeus issued everyone a pass.

* * *

In testifying before House and Senate committees about the current situation in Iraq, Petraeus told no outright lies. He made no blustery promises about “victory,” a word notably absent from his testimony. The tone of the presentation was sober and measured. It contained the requisite references to complexity and challenge. Petraeus acknowledged miscalculation and disappointment. In contrast to his commander in chief, he did not claim that U.S. troops were “kicking ass.”

Yet the essence of his message was this: after four years of futile blundering, the United States has identified the makings of a successful strategy in Iraq. The new doctrine that Petraeus had devised and implemented—the concept of securing the population and thereby fostering conditions conducive to reconstruction and reconciliation—has produced limited but real progress. This gives Petraeus cause for hope that further efforts along these lines may yet enable the United States to create an Iraq that is stable, unified, and not a haven for terrorists. In so many words, Petraeus told Congress that senior U.S. commanders in Iraq had finally found the right roadmap. The way ahead may be long and difficult—indeed, it will be. But Petraeus and his key subordinates know where they are. They know where they need to go. And above all, at long last, they know how to get there.

Critics have questioned the data that Petraeus offered to substantiate his case. They charge him with relying on dubious statistics, with ignoring facts that he finds inconvenient, and with discovering trends where none exist. They question whether to credit the much-touted progress in Anbar province to American shrewdness or to the vagaries of Iraqi sectarian and tribal politics. They cite the pathetic performance of the corrupt and dysfunctional Iraqi government. They note the disparity between the Petraeus assessment and those offered by the intelligence community, by the Government Accountability Office, and by congressionally appointed blue-ribbon commissions. They point out that other highly qualified and well-informed senior military officers—notably, Gen. George Casey, the army chief of staff, and Adm. William Fallon, commander of United States Central Command—have publicly expressed views notably at odds with those of General Petraeus.

The critics make a good case. Yet let us ignore them. Let us assume instead that Petraeus genuinely believes that he has broken the code in Iraq and that things are improving. Let’s assume further that he is correct in that assessment.

What then should he have recommended to the Congress and the president? That is, if the commitment of a modest increment of additional forces —the 30,000 troops comprising the surge, now employed in accordance with sound counterinsurgency doctrine —has begun to turn things around, then what should the senior field commander be asking for next?

A single word suffices to answer that question: more. More time. More money. And above all, more troops.

It is one of the oldest principles of generalship: when you find an opportunity, exploit it. Where you gain success, reinforce it. When you have your opponent at a disadvantage, pile on. In a letter to the soldiers serving under his command, released just prior to the congressional hearings, Petraeus asserted that coalition forces had “achieved tactical momentum and wrestled the initiative from our enemies.” Does that reflect his actual view of the situation? If so, then surely the imperative of the moment is to redouble the current level of effort so as to preserve that initiative and to deny the enemy the slightest chance to adjust, adapt, or reconstitute.

Yet Petraeus has chosen to do just the opposite. Based on two or three months of (ostensibly) positive indicators, he has advised the president to ease the pressure, withdrawing the increment of troops that had (purportedly) enabled the coalition to seize the initiative in the first place.

This defies logic. It’s as if two weeks into the Wilderness Campaign, Grant had counseled Lincoln to reduce the size of the Army of the Potomac. Or as if once Allied forces had established the beachhead at Normandy, Eisenhower had started rotating divisions back stateside to ease the strain on the U.S. Army.

Petraeus likes to portray himself as a thinking soldier. Having devoted his

Ph.D. dissertation to the lessons of Vietnam, he qualifies as a serious student of counterinsurgencies. He knows that they require lots of troops—many more than the United States has in Iraq relative to the size of the population there. He knows, too, that they require lots of time—on average, nine or ten years by his own publicly expressed estimation. The counter-insurgency manual that Petraeus helped draft prior to taking up command in Baghdad makes these points explicitly.

If Petraeus actually believes that he can salvage something akin to success in Iraq and if he agrees with President Bush about the consequences of failure —genocidal violence, Iraq becoming a launching pad for terrorist attacks directed against the United States, the Middle East descending into chaos that consumes Israel, the oil-dependent global economy shattered beyond repair, all of this culminating in the emergence of a new Caliphate bent on destroying the West—then surely this moment of (supposed) promise is not a time for scrimping. Rather, now is the time to go all out—to insist upon a maximum effort.

* * *

There is only one plausible explanation for Petraeus’s terminating a surge that has (he says) enabled coalition forces, however tentatively, to gain the upper hand. That explanation is politics—of the wrong kind.

Given the current situation as Petraeus describes it, an incremental reduction in U.S. troop strength makes sense only in one regard: it serves to placate each of the various Washington constituencies that Petraeus has a political interest in pleasing.

A modest drawdown responds to the concerns of Petraeus’s fellow four stars, especially the Joint Chiefs, who view the stress being imposed on U.S. forces as intolerable. Ending the surge provides the Army and the Marine Corps with a modicum of relief.

A modest drawdown also comes as welcome news for moderate Republicans in Congress. Nervously eyeing the forthcoming elections, they have wanted to go before the electorate with something to offer other than being identified with Bush’s disastrous war. Now they can point to signs of change—indeed, Petraeus’s proposed withdrawal of one brigade before Christmas coincides precisely with a suggestion made just weeks ago by Sen. John Warner, the influential Republican from Virginia.

Although they won’t say so openly, a modest drawdown comes as good news to Democrats as well. Accused with considerable justification of having done nothing to end the war since taking control of the Congress in January, they can now point to the drawdown as evidence that they are making headway. As Newsweek’s Michael Hirsch observed, Petraeus “delivered an early Christmas present” to congressional Democrats.

Above all, a modest drawdown pleases President Bush. It gives him breathing room to continue the conflict in which he has so much invested. It all but guarantees that Iraq will be the principal gift that Bush bestows upon his successor when he leaves office in January 2009. Bush’s war will outlive Bush: for reasons difficult to fathom, this has become an important goal for the president and his dwindling band of loyalists.

Granted, no one is completely happy. Yet neither does anyone go away empty-handed. The Petraeus plan offers a little something for everyone, not least of all for Petraeus himself, who takes back to Baghdad a smidgen of additional time (his next report is not due for another six months), lots more money (at least $3 billion per week), and assurances that his tenure in command has been extended.

This outcome reflects the handiwork of someone skilled in the ways of Washington. Yet the ultimate result is to allow the contradiction between our military efforts in Iraq and our professed political purposes there to persist.

* * *

Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli is one officer keen to confront rather than ignore that contradiction. In an article appearing in the current issue of the journal Military Review, General Chiarelli writes:

The U.S. as a Nation—and indeed most of the U.S. Government—has not gone to war since 9/11. Instead the departments of Defense and State (as much as their modern capabilities allow) and the Central Intelligence Agency are at war while the American people and most the other institutions of national power have largely gone about their normal business.

Chiarelli is correct. His statement goes directly to the heart of the matter. After the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, to sustained bipartisan applause, President Bush committed the United States to an open-ended global war on terror. Having made that fundamental decision, the president and Congress sent American soldiers off to fight that war while urging the American people to distract themselves with other pursuits. The American people have done as they were asked.

The result, six years later, is a massive and growing gap between the resources required to sustain that global war, in Iraq and elsewhere, and the resources actually available to do so. President Bush, with the Joint Chiefs of Staff serving as enablers, has papered over that gap by sending soldiers back for a third or fourth combat tour and, most recently, by extending the length of those tours. In a country with a population that exceeds 300 million, one-half of one percent of our fellow citizens bear the burden of this global war. The other 99.5 percent of us have decided to chill out.

The president has made no serious effort to mobilize the wherewithal that his wars in Iraq and Afghanistan require. The Congress, liberal Democrats voting aye, has made itself complicit in this shameful policy by obligingly appropriating whatever sums of money the president has requested, all, of course, in the name of “supporting the troops.”

Petraeus has now given this charade a further lease on life. In effect, he is allowing the president and the Congress to continue dodging the main issue, which comes down to this: if the civilian leadership wants to wage a global war on terror and if that war entails pacifying Iraq, then let’s get serious about providing what’s needed to complete the mission—starting with lots more soldiers. Rather than curtailing the ostensibly successful surge, Petraeus should broaden and deepen it. That means sending more troops to Iraq, not bringing them home. And that probably implies doubling or tripling the size of the United States Army on a crash basis.

If the civilian leadership is unwilling to provide what’s needed, then all of the talk about waging a global war on terror—talk heard not only from the president but from most of those jockeying to replace him—amounts to so much hot air. Critics who think the concept of the global war on terror is fundamentally flawed will see this as a positive development. Once we recognize the global war on terror for the fraudulent enterprise that it has become, then we can get serious about designing a strategy to address the threat that we actually face, which is not terrorism but violent Islamic radicalism. The antidote to Islamic radicalism, if there is one, won’t involve invading and occupying places like Iraq.

This defines Petraeus’s failure. Instead of obliging the president and the Congress to confront this fundamental contradiction—are we or are we not at war?—he chose instead to let them off the hook.

Of course, if he had done otherwise—if he had asked, say, to expand the surge by adding yet another 50,000 troops—he would have distressed just about everyone back in Washington. He might have paid a considerable price career-wise. Certainly, he would have angered the JCS, antiwar Democrats, and waffling Republicans who want the war to go away. Even the president, Petraeus’s number-one fan, would have been surprised and embarrassed by such a request.

Yet the anger and embarrassment would have been salutary. A great political general doesn’t tell his masters what they want to hear. He tells them what they need to hear, thereby nudging them to make decisions that must be made if the nation’s interests are to be served. In this instance, Petraeus provided cover for them to evade their responsibilities.

Politically, it qualifies as a brilliant maneuver. The general’s relationships with official Washington remain intact. Yet he has broken faith with the soldiers he commands and the Army to which he has devoted his life. He has failed his country. History will not judge him kindly.
__________________________________________

Andrew J. Bacevich is professor of history and international relations at Boston University.

Bill
09-29-2007, 10:20 PM
I also believe history will not judge him kindly.

However, I also think that the oil in Iraq is such a critical strategic prize, that while he will be seen as the ultimate "political general", staying in Iraq may be viewed by history as important to US power and survival thru the 21st century.

It's a crazy situation. The monkey trap - we've grabbed the bait, and we can't let go.

Are you familiar with the idea of a monkey trap? It's a coconut with a hole drilled in it just the size of a monkeys wrist. bait, like dried fruit, is put inside.

The monkey reaches in, grabs the bait, but can't pull his hand out without letting go of the bait.

When he's got the bait, a man can run up and club him to death, because he can't decide to let go of the bait.

"Charming", you're thinking. But, the monkey trap is the perfect metaphor for many situations in life.

Frankg
09-30-2007, 07:29 AM
The president made it clear that he intended to takes his cues from his general. Military judgment would inform, even determine, political decisions.



This is the way its been since the begining of the war LadyM....uh...I mean Bobslilgirl. The political goal and the military goal are the same, to eliminate the threat from Saddam Hussein and help establish some kind of rational government in Iraq and if Patreaus is a political general , then it would follow that all the generals under his command would have be political also , yes ?

Kind of a tough thing to accomplish

disrupter
09-30-2007, 07:44 AM
Especially tough if you are stupid.

Neocons are stupid.

Smurf-Herder
09-30-2007, 09:30 AM
Especially tough if you are stupid.

Neocons are stupid.

And the paranoid Radical Liberals the extremist propaganda plays off of are Useful Idiots.

disrupter
09-30-2007, 10:25 AM
And you are allied with the extremist propaganda.

in a land of liars the truth is a radical thing.

put me on the side of radical truths.

Smurf-Herder
09-30-2007, 10:32 AM
And you are allied with the extremist propaganda.

in a land of liars the truth is a radical thing.

put me on the side of radical truths.

From what I've seen you post, you seem to believe the most extreme propaganda imaginable.

disrupter
09-30-2007, 10:37 AM
propaganda is that which is presented in the media.

my ideas come from my own mind, my own thinking from observations.

btw, how can something be both propaganda AND radical?
isn't that an oxymoron?
propaganda is inherently establishment,
radical is inherently distinct from the center of gravity/mass.

Smurf-Herder
09-30-2007, 10:43 AM
propaganda is that which is presented in the media.

my ideas come from my own mind, my own thinking from observations.

btw, how can something be both propaganda AND radical?
isn't that an oxymoron?
propaganda is inherently establishment,
radical is inherently distinct from the center of gravity/mass.

"propaganda is inherently establishment"

Where did you get that little gem?

Propaganda is propaganda. It doesn't follow that it can only come from a single type of source. What about Al-Qaeda propaganda. Is Al-Qaeda the establishment.

I think your entire POV originates from being "anti-establishment", without regard to anything else.

disrupter
09-30-2007, 10:50 AM
propaganda requires resources, broad resources.

broad resources require some kind of structure, an establishment.

Al Qaeda is an established organization.
Persistent through time, identifiable leaders, semi-identifiable missions/goals.

I do like being anti-establishment

i would like to be a part of the anti-establishment establisment.

Smurf-Herder
09-30-2007, 10:59 AM
propaganda requires resources, broad resources.

broad resources require some kind of structure, an establishment.

Al Qaeda is an established organization.
Persistent through time, identifiable leaders, semi-identifiable missions/goals.

I do like being anti-establishment

i would like to be a part of the anti-establishment establisment.

So by your reasoning, there is an anti-establishment establishment. Therefore they are capable of propaganda.

disrupter
09-30-2007, 11:14 AM
no they don't exist,
i or others will have to create the anti-establishment establishment.

i would imagine it to be more of a wildly vibrant debate, discussion, arguments about ideas & tactics & then a tense calm as a unified front is presented.

Smurf-Herder
09-30-2007, 11:30 AM
no they don't exist,
i or others will have to create the anti-establishment establishment.

i would imagine it to be more of a wildly vibrant debate, discussion, arguments about ideas & tactics & then a tense calm as a unified front is presented.

Of course they do.

George Soros is behind Media Matters, Code Oink, MoveOn and a few others.

disrupter
09-30-2007, 11:33 AM
no they are still outside the main establishment,

but luckily they are finally starting to gain support & credibility.

Smurf-Herder
09-30-2007, 12:07 PM
no they are still outside the main establishment,

but luckily they are finally starting to gain support & credibility.

Because of their propaganda.

Case closed.

disrupter
09-30-2007, 12:10 PM
because the stances they took long ago are turning out to be true.

Or are you saying reality is propaganda?

The Universe is on the side of the liberals?

hmm, sounds kind of ominous & not optimistic for you & yours cat-herder.

Smurf-Herder
09-30-2007, 02:27 PM
because the stances they took long ago are turning out to be true.

Or are you saying reality is propaganda?

The Universe is on the side of the liberals?

hmm, sounds kind of ominous & not optimistic for you & yours cat-herder.

You're fucking nuts.

Linkster
09-30-2007, 08:49 PM
I just found this - and have got to say something - if moveon and code pink and george soros (whoever he is) are the best the left wing can come up with - then the whole anti-war cause has a real problem - these groups are nothing but a bunch of pansies just as the right-wingers are - we need some good weathermen/SDS style anti-establishment to show up - but Im afraid the kids in that age bracket are too hung up on themselves or their new Halo 3 to worry about it

asroc
09-30-2007, 08:54 PM
The problem with the left anti-war, of which I am a part, is that they're nowhere near as good at organizing and solidarity as the Republicans are. The Democrats, they're just complete pussies basically. I'm referring to people who are anti-war and completely disenfranchised by the two parties in America.

One reason is that the left all have wildly different views on all kinds of issues, it's a huge tent. The Republicans are more likely to sacrifice their actual views to tow the party line.

Linkster
09-30-2007, 09:09 PM
I just have vivid memories of the 60s in Wash DC - especially one day (May day) when the whole city was closed down by anti-war groups by spreading tacks across all the bridges and parking trucks on the bridges. I remember also seeing the machine gun nest set up on the capital steps - only twice do I ever remember that happening - the other was the riots right after MLK was shot but then we had soldiers stationed just about every 10 feet on the main streets enforcing the lockdowns.

Smurf-Herder
09-30-2007, 09:24 PM
I just found this - and have got to say something - if moveon and code pink and george soros (whoever he is) are the best the left wing can come up with - then the whole anti-war cause has a real problem - these groups are nothing but a bunch of pansies just as the right-wingers are - we need some good weathermen/SDS style anti-establishment to show up - but Im afraid the kids in that age bracket are too hung up on themselves or their new Halo 3 to worry about it

George Soros is a billionaire who has caused economic troubles in other countries and finances the main organizations of the Left.

http://www.texasrainmaker.com/2007/09/26/political-parties-a-buyers-guide-by-george-soros/

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={8B525A27-6995-471D-8C8B-A354651C8856}

http://www.redstate.com/blogs/pagar/2007/sep/28/seiu_connected_to_george_soros_and_the_shadow_demo cratic_party

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=977

"Soros and his foundations have had a hand in funding a host of leftist organizations, including the Tides Foundation; the Tides Center; the National Organization for Women; Feminist Majority; the American Civil Liberties Union; People for the American Way; Alliance for Justice; NARAL Pro-Choice America; America Coming Together; the Center for American Progress; Campaign for America's Future; Amnesty International; the Sentencing Project; the Center for Community Change; the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Legal Defense and Educational Fund; Human Rights Watch; the Prison Moratorium Project; the Malcolm X Grassroots Movement; the National Lawyers Guild; the Center for Constitutional Rights; the Coalition for an International Criminal Court; The American Prospect; MoveOn.org; Planned Parenthood; the Nation Institute; the Brennan Center for Justice; the Ms. Foundation for Women; the National Security Archive Fund; the Pacifica Foundation; Physicians for Human Rights; the Proteus Fund; the Public Citizen Foundation; the Urban Institute; the American Friends Service Committee; Catholics for a Free Choice; Human Rights First; the Independent Media Institute; MADRE; the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund; the Immigrant Legal Resource Center; the National Immigration Law Center; the National Immigration Forum; the National Council of La Raza; the American Immigration Law Foundation; the Lynne Stewart Defense Committee; and the Peace and Security Funders Group."

Linkster
09-30-2007, 09:33 PM
I remember him now - I actually agree with one of his viewpoints - that we are going about this whole terrorism threat the wrong way - and that calling that into question shouldnt be labelled "unpatriotic" - as a matter of fact I would agree that questioning why we arent defending our borders and really going after ALL of the terrorist cells across the world is a really good question - and one that shouldnt be put down by the administration as something we shouldnt talk about.

I hate it when I hear these goody two shoes defending the administration who love to talk tough - but when it comes to taking action cant figure out where to start. If someone comes along and criticizes them for it they just gather up like a turtle in his shell and spout out that we are in a war on terror and we shouldnt be criticizing them - jebuszzz - I could give them credit if they really had done something - but so far all Ive seen is a bunch more heroin on the market and a bunch of Americans pissed off at all politicians

Smurf-Herder
09-30-2007, 09:43 PM
I remember him now - I actually agree with one of his viewpoints - that we are going about this whole terrorism threat the wrong way - and that calling that into question shouldnt be labelled "unpatriotic" - as a matter of fact I would agree that questioning why we arent defending our borders and really going after ALL of the terrorist cells across the world is a really good question - and one that shouldnt be put down by the administration as something we shouldnt talk about.

I hate it when I hear these goody two shoes defending the administration who love to talk tough - but when it comes to taking action cant figure out where to start. If someone comes along and criticizes them for it they just gather up like a turtle in his shell and spout out that we are in a war on terror and we shouldnt be criticizing them - jebuszzz - I could give them credit if they really had done something - but so far all Ive seen is a bunch more heroin on the market and a bunch of Americans pissed off at all politicians

As to other countries and terror cells, every country is a unique case; and we have to deal differently with each, within the limits of their cooperation.

As to our border - that's a real sore spot with me - with the Democrats and Republicans, who apparently have this North American Union idea. And that includes Bush. My support "literally" stops at the border (issue). I no longer trust some whom I used to because of their stance on the border/immigration bill that failed.

LadyMod at scam.com
09-30-2007, 09:57 PM
As to our border - that's a real sore spot with me - with the Democrats and Republicans, who apparently have this North American Union idea. And that includes Bush. My support "literally" stops at the border (issue). I no longer trust some whom I used to because of their stance on the border/immigration bill that failed.

I don't get this whole North American Union thing. Whose not so brilliant idea was that?


Lady Mod

Smurf-Herder
09-30-2007, 10:06 PM
I don't get this whole North American Union thing. Whose not so brilliant idea was that?


Lady Mod

Apparently Bush's expansion of Clinton's NAFTA.

It's based on a long-term idea similar to the EU, for economic reasons.

All the agreements are being downplayed to the public.

http://www.spp.gov/

LadyMod at scam.com
09-30-2007, 10:09 PM
Apparently Bush's expansion of Clinton's NAFTA.

It's based on a long-term idea similar to the EU, for economic reasons.

Ahhhh! And they want to keep the dinasty going by putting another Clinton in office.


Not good for the U.S. of A.

:(

Smurf-Herder
09-30-2007, 10:17 PM
Ahhhh! And they want to keep the dinasty going by putting another Clinton in office.


Not good for the U.S. of A.

:(

I sure as hell hope not. We're all screwed then.

Same with Rudy. He's connected through a law firm he works with.

Linkster
09-30-2007, 10:20 PM
I think Rudy just lost out anyway - the base christian coalitions had a "secret meeting" and decided they are pulling support for him

LadyMod at scam.com
09-30-2007, 10:23 PM
I sure as hell hope not. We're all screwed then.

Same with Rudy. He's connected through a law firm he works with.

I don't know Smurf, she's leading the pack and gaining momentum.

Ugh! What a disaster it will be.

Who is running on the independent ticket?

LadyMod at scam.com
09-30-2007, 10:24 PM
I think Rudy just lost out anyway - the base christian coalitions had a "secret meeting" and decided they are pulling support for him

I really didn't see him having much of a chance. There was something really smarmy about him and I just didn't see him being in office.

Lady Mod

Smurf-Herder
09-30-2007, 10:35 PM
I don't know Smurf, she's leading the pack and gaining momentum.

Ugh! What a disaster it will be.

Who is running on the independent ticket?

I don't think an Independent would do anything but take votes away from her competition.

And frankly, I'd be really surprised if Hillary were able to win the general election. She's way to polarizing.

LadyMod at scam.com
10-01-2007, 07:27 AM
I don't think an Independent would do anything but take votes away from her competition.

And frankly, I'd be really surprised if Hillary were able to win the general election. She's way to polarizing.

She could if the count is fixed or the Supreme court hands it to her like they did the current prez.

And I think it would depend on who she runs against too.


Lady Mod