Glenn Beck Rally Attracts Estimated 87,000

[nondual]

August 28, 2010 6:32 PM


An estimated 87,000 people attended a rally organized by talk-radio host and Fox News commentator Glenn Beck Saturday in Washington, according to a crowd estimate commissioned by CBS News.

The company AirPhotosLive.com based the attendance on aerial pictures it took over the rally, which stretched from in front of the Lincoln Memorial along the Reflecting Pool to the Washington Monument. Beck and former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin spoke at the rally.

[...]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20014993-503544.html?tag=strip

[2T]

actually, those are better photos than I've seen so far, there's WAAAAY more green space than I had thought, half that field is much more open,,, probably 20 sqft per person needs to be alotted for half the space. It would clearly be 3 square on about the 1st 5th of the crowd but then it really opens up

[John Galt]

actually, those are better photos than I've seen so far, there's WAAAAY more green space than I had thought, half that field is much more open,,, probably 20 sqft per person needs to be alotted for half the space. It would clearly be 3 square on about the 1st 5th of the crowd but then it really opens up
Prob. because the conservative Jews couldn't make it.

Beck was careful not to have it on Sunday, because it was 'the sabbath'.


Yep...that's a real mixed bag he's got there.

[Trinnity]

NBC news said 300,000. The Park Service won't release a number.
Wonder why. ---> cuz the admin doesn't want it to.

Most corrupt admin evuh. Must spin and control everything. Good plan. :crazzy:

[John Galt]

Interestingly CBS is estimating the crowd at 87,000. NBC quoted the National Parks service which put it at 300,000.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/how-many-people-were-at-glenn-becks-rally-heres-a-really-big-slideshow/



Crowd estimates used to be provided by the National Park Service, but the agency stopped counting crowds in 1997 after being accused of underestimating the size of the Million Man March in 1995.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20014993-503544.html?tag=strip








NBC quoted the NPS....



Sure they did

[Smurf-Herder]

http://www.mediaite.com/online/how-many-people-were-at-glenn-becks-rally-heres-a-really-big-slideshow/



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20014993-503544.html?tag=strip


NBC quoted the NPS....



Sure they did

So NBC is lying, in favor of Beck?

Does that make any sense?

[2T]

NBC news said 300,000. The Park Service won't release a number.
Wonder why. ---> cuz the admin doesn't want it to.

Most corrupt admin evuh. Must spin and control everything. Good plan. :crazzy:


actually you can find where the park service has been banned by congress from estimating crowds since the 1995 when it was almost sued by the millionmanmarch organizers. In the 13 yrs since it has made an estimate once after being asked by this admin to do so for the inaugeration.


nice try though, should read some news or do some kind of research

[Trinnity]

From your link:
http://www.mediaite.com/online/how-many-people-were-at-glenn-becks-rally-heres-a-really-big-slideshow/
Thus far, the big question following yesterday’s event appears to be how many people attended. Answer from the ground: a lot. Interestingly CBS is estimating the crowd at 87,000. NBC quoted the National Parks service which put it at 300,000. Based solely on my perspective from the ground and the fact I was in Washington for the Inauguration I would err on the side of NBC and the National Parks. But the discrepancy begs the question: how do you lose 200,000 people?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Good. Everything is so perfect in DC.
Libs will minimize the crowd, supporters may do the opposite. We have no reliable count.
What a crock of shit it all is. Don't we all deserve to have a reliable count for ALL events? YES.

All this hoo-ha on political chat sites. The event got a big turnout and libs just hate it. You have to put up with us, and we with you.

The big "count" is in NOvember. Kiss your collectivist, utopian-dreams g'bye - deep down you progressives know you're done.
And, way cool !! ---> We'll save a fortune on Pelosi's liquor bills and drunken cocktail parties where she greases up house dems right before floor votes. :hammer: ---> :banana:

Dems had the House, Senate, WH, and blew it. You wonder why people are SO pissed. Payback is coming. :thumbsup:

[Smurf-Herder]

actually you can find where the park service has been banned by congress from estimating crowds since the 1995 when it was almost sued by the millionmanmarch organizers. In the 13 yrs since it has made an estimate once after being asked by this admin to do so for the inaugeration.


nice try though, should read some news or do some kind of research

So come on man, which is it?

Is NBC lying about the park service giving them the figures, in favor of Beck?

Or, is the New York Times lying about NBC saying they got the figures from the park service, in favor of Beck?

Either way, you're saying one of them lied - in favor of Beck.

[2T]

I have not. I've not said anything about NBC or NYT... I haven't implied any favoring of anyone, for any reason.

If the national parks service has reversed its position and made an estimate, quote someone from the NPS doing so

[Smurf-Herder]

I have not. I've not said anything about NBC or NYT... I haven't implied any favoring of anyone, for any reason.

If the national parks service has reversed its position and made an estimate, quote someone from the NPS doing so

I never said that NBC got their figure from the park service. Others did.

[2T]

I never said that NBC got their figure from the park service. Others did.

and that means you should target me specifically to prove or disprove your assertion, that was based on what "others said" ?

[MintJulep]

All this hoo-ha on political chat sites. The event got a big turnout and libs just hate it. That's it in a nutshell and why I'm lovin' it. :thumbsup:

[Smurf-Herder]

and that means you should target me specifically to prove or disprove your assertion, that was based on what "others said" ?


Consider it an open question for anyone to answer.

Sorry, I just responded to the first reply after I thought about it.

[doctordog]

I heard in the restaurant this morning the number was closer to 500k

[dsolo802]

I heard in the restaurant this morning the number was closer to 500kPeg "the Waitress" told you? And she heard it from Fox the "news organization"?

[doctordog]

Peg "the Waitress" told you? And she heard it from Fox the "news organization"?

Nope, heard it from a state representative, none the less dsolo it is waste of time to tell you as you never see outside your radical leftist ideas.

[2T]

:lmao2: "I heard in a restaurant..." I'm impressed

[doctordog]

:lmao2: "I heard in a restaurant..." I'm impressed

Since you are a fan of a team the let go of the BABE and had such as Bill Buckner, I am sure you are.:lmao2:

[BlueSpoon]

actually, those are better photos than I've seen so far, there's WAAAAY more green space than I had thought, half that field is much more open,,, probably 20 sqft per person needs to be alotted for half the space. It would clearly be 3 square on about the 1st 5th of the crowd but then it really opens up



At what point in the rally was that taken? No one seems to want to answer that question.

[dsolo802]

Nope, heard it from a state representative, none the less dsolo it is waste of time to tell you as you never see outside your radical leftist ideas.My ideas are more conservative than yours, Rush's, Beck's, Hannity's - and those of the so-called loyal opposition.

Those guys talk a good game about opportunity for hard working American men and women, they pontificate about support for the troops, and they talk endlessly about fiscal discipline. But that is all hot bologna.

Genuine opportunity for the middle class? That is the last thing those rich boys want. They glad hand the working man while never missing an opportunity to piss on him from on high.

They talk about support for the troops, but send them to elective wars without giving them the armor they need and the tools to the job, and throw them away when they come back bruised and broken.

Fiscal discipline? the very people who killed the golden goose with the most irresponsible spending every seen by any administration bar none - now actively resisting the very measures that have prevented a horrible recession from becoming another depression - in the name of fiscal discipline.

I'm very sorry to tell you, Wayers, there is no honor, or truth or conservative values motivating the boys you want to win the day. In the name of freedom, they are fronting for the firesale of America itself - one large piece at a time. Wave bye bye Wayers, it is nearly going, going gone.

[John Galt]

At what point in the rally was that taken? No one seems to want to answer that question.
If you took the time to read, you'd know that it was noon.

[MintJulep]

My ideas are more conservative than yours, Rush's, Beck's, Hannity's - and those of the so-called loyal opposition.

Those guys talk a good game about opportunity for hard working American men and women, they pontificate about support for the troops, and they talk endlessly about fiscal discipline. But that is all hot bologna.

Genuine opportunity for the middle class? That is the last thing those rich boys want. They glad hand the working man while never missing an opportunity to piss on him from on high.

They talk about support for the troops, but send them to elective wars without giving them the armor they need and the tools to the job, and throw them away when they come back bruised and broken.

Fiscal discipline? the very people who killed the golden goose with the most irresponsible spending every seen by any administration bar none - now actively resisting the very measures that have prevented a horrible recession from becoming another depression - in the name of fiscal discipline.

I'm very sorry to tell you, Wayers, there is no honor, or truth or conservative values motivating the boys you want to win the day. In the name of freedom, they are fronting for the firesale of America itself - one large piece at a time. Wave bye bye Wayers, it is nearly going, going gone.And you will have this to thank for it.

[doctordog]

My ideas are more conservative than yours, Rush's, Beck's, Hannity's - and those of the so-called loyal opposition.

Those guys talk a good game about opportunity for hard working American men and women, they pontificate about support for the troops, and they talk endlessly about fiscal discipline. But that is all hot bologna.

Genuine opportunity for the middle class? That is the last thing those rich boys want. They glad hand the working man while never missing an opportunity to piss on him from on high.

They talk about support for the troops, but send them to elective wars without giving them the armor they need and the tools to the job, and throw them away when they come back bruised and broken.

Fiscal discipline? the very people who killed the golden goose with the most irresponsible spending every seen by any administration bar none - now actively resisting the very measures that have prevented a horrible recession from becoming another depression - in the name of fiscal discipline.

I'm very sorry to tell you, Wayers, there is no honor, or truth or conservative values motivating the boys you want to win the day. In the name of freedom, they are fronting for the firesale of America itself - one large piece at a time. Wave bye bye Wayers, it is nearly going, going gone.

You are no where near as conservative as me as you choose to support theft from the middle class to support the lower classes that don't give a fuck about their future to begin with. Clinton was the one responsible for cutting the DOD so you can thank him for letting America's armor go to hell in a handbasket. Clinton effectively put the sign in out yard with the signing of NAFTA.

[BlueSpoon]

If you took the time to read, you'd know that it was noon.
Obviously I didn't take the time. The statement that there were only 87,000 was a complete turn off. Anyone who can count can see there were more than that.

[2T]

really? what is your experience in estimating crowds, Blue?

[Fulltimer]

Sure are a lot of threads here about Beck's "Return to America's Honor? Heritage?" or whatever.

It appears to me it is Beck's and Palin's goal to return to Richard Nixon's "Southern Strategy".

As Republican adviser Kevin Phillips described it "Baiting the White Negrophobes" to win southern states.

The honor that the wingnutz want to return America to includes blacks and poor folks "Knowing their place".

It may work.

We will wait to see if Beck/Palin can succeed in turning America back 60 years.

[doctordog]

Sure are a lot of threads here about Beck's "Return to America's Honor? Heritage?" or whatever.

It appears to me it is Beck's and Palin's goal to return to Richard Nixon's "Southern Strategy".

As Republican adviser Kevin Phillips described it "Baiting the White Negrophobes" to win southern states.

The honor that the wingnutz want to return America to includes blacks and poor folks "Knowing their place".

It may work.

We will wait to see if Beck/Palin can succeed in turning America back 60 years.

We know you prefer to go back 81 years.

[dsolo802]

You are no where near as conservative as me as you choose to support theft from the middle class The middle class does not benefit from having a perpetual underclass - only the richest one percent benefits from that. You and I are already paying welfare for all of the poor and struggling middle class people who get their health care from Emergency rooms - the most expensive health care possible. The rich club doesn't want you know or think about that. There is less "theft" with Health Care Reform than there is without it.

to support the lower classes that don't give a fuck about their future to begin with.That's just an ignorant statement. You assume the humans don't have natural human feelings. No one wants for their families to live in poor health, in squalor and in misery. And This is not our father's America, Wayers. The mobility that once made America great has been packed off to China and India. Bye, bye bye.

Clinton was the one responsible for cutting the DOD so you can thank him for letting America's armor go to hell in a handbasket.No I have to blame the Commander-in-Chief at the time the men and women were packed to off to fight the war of that President's choosing. Only Bush was in a position to properly equip them, and he chose not to do that. And it was Bush who refused to properly fund the VA Administration. To say that his administration's support for the VA was miserly is to be charitable.

Clinton effectively put the sign in out yard with the signing of NAFTA.I do blame Clinton for this, and for the end of Glass-Steagall. But Clinton did not do either of these things alone. It was a Republican Congress that pushed Glass-Steagall repeal to Clinton's desk. I blame Clinton for signing it.

Clinton joined hands with the GOP - and all past Presidents including Reagan, Ford, Nixon and Carter - in urging the passage of NAFTA. Working families across the political spectrum should unite with each other standing in opposition to the Dem and Repub money whores in an effort to end the charade we call "the Global Economy."

We are outsourcing the very means of livelihood of future generations.

[doctordog]

The middle class does not benefit from having a perpetual underclass - only the richest one percent benefits from that. You and I are already paying welfare for all of the poor and struggling middle class people who get their health care from Emergency rooms - the most expensive health care possible. The rich club doesn't want you know or think about that. There is less "theft" with Health Care Reform than there is without it.


Taxing people that pay for their healthcare plans another high percentage for living resposibility creates an even larger poorer class. There is not advantage to creating a 2 class system which is where this elitist is taking us.

[dsolo802]

And you will have this to thank for it.Yes, Beck is leading the charge to sell this country out. I couldn't agree more!

[slowhand]

Since you are a fan of a team the let go of the BABE and had such as Bill Buckner, I am sure you are.:lmao2:

Another guy who wants english to be the national language, and he cant even speak it himself

You are fluent in broken english though..I'll give you that :lmao2:

[doctordog]

Another guy who wants english to be the national language, and he cant even speak it himself

You are fluent in broken english though..I'll give you that :lmao2:

Are you still here after posting that suck up apology to Eric? What he turned you down after wiping the spit off?:lmao2:

[dsolo802]

Taxing people that pay for their healthcare plans another high percentage for living resposibility creates an even larger poorer class. The taxes have not gone up on the middle class, Wayers.

There is not advantage to creating a 2 class system which is where this elitist is taking us.He is restoring fairness to a tax system that worked best - for decades - when we made those who benefited the most contribute more.

[Bill Cosby]

I heard in the restaurant this morning the number was closer to 500k


Really???

I heard that the mormans are saying it was exactly 144,000...... Gee I wonder were I heard that # before???? :crazzy:

[slowhand]

Are you still here after posting that suck up apology to Eric? What he turned you down after wiping the spit off?:lmao2:

Do you make apologies for this guy too?

You do a lousy job of impersonating people

http://www.dcjunkies.com/member.php?u=707

[doctordog]

Do you make apologies for this guy too?

You do a lousy job of impersonating people

http://www.dcjunkies.com/member.php?u=707

I am not impersonating anyone, I don't have to. Man up or shut up whiny:taunt:

[doctordog]

The taxes have not gone up on the middle class, Wayers.

He is restoring fairness to a tax system that worked best - for decades - when we made those who benefited the most contribute more.

In order to pay for healthcare Obama intends to tax those with healthplans. SO yes taxes do go up on the middle class. These new energy laws for renewable sources in utility companies create a higher cost for electricity so again taxes increase to cover those cost. Obama is killing the middle class, you know it, or if you don't you are not aware of what extra cost in industry means to the consumer or end user.

[2T]

Taxing people that pay for their healthcare plans another high percentage for living resposibility creates an even larger poorer class. There is not advantage to creating a 2 class system which is where this elitist is taking us.


actually, those of us who pay for our own healthplans, do so with taxed income. Those who recieve health insurance as a benefit (re income) are going to be taxed on that income now. seems fair to me, seeing as it won't be necessary to bait people into getting insurance through work

[doctordog]

actually, those of us who pay for our own healthplans, do so with taxed income. Those who recieve health insurance as a benefit (re income) are going to be taxed on that income now. seems fair to me, seeing as it won't be necessary to bait people into getting insurance through work

As usual another lazy fuck supports taxing the working for the non working.:banghead:

[nondual]

As usual another lazy fuck supports taxing the working for the non working.:banghead:
You don't want to pay taxes, and you don't want the government to stimulate the economy.

How do you expect America to survive? Or, are you trying to destroy America?

[nondual]

actually, those of us who pay for our own healthplans, do so with taxed income. Those who recieve health insurance as a benefit (re income) are going to be taxed on that income now. seems fair to me, seeing as it won't be necessary to bait people into getting insurance through work
Good. We need to end employer based health insurance.

[slowhand]

I am not impersonating anyone, I don't have to. Man up or shut up whiny:taunt:

Bullshit asshole..You registered that account

[MintJulep]

Bullshit asshole..You registered that accountProve it.............

[doctordog]

Bullshit asshole..You registered that account

I didn't, but I think it is funny just the same, squirm some more loser.:taunt:

[doctordog]

You don't want to pay taxes, and you don't want the government to stimulate the economy.

How do you expect America to survive? Or, are you trying to destroy America?

taxes on insurance I already pay from money that I pay taxes on? How many times should working America be fucked out of their money to support the fuckups that only want their next high, drunk, or food stamps?

[slowhand]

Prove it.............

As a dog returns to his doody, so does a fool to his folly

[Mike D.]

How can spending like a drunken sailor fix the problem? At least when drunken sailors spend all their money it's their money.

When I am broke I do not go out and max out my credit cards, too. Obama's medicine for the economy is "Kill the patient and cure the disease."

God, November can't get here fast enough.

[doctordog]

As a dog returns to his doody, so does a fool to his folly

so who's pecker was your other hand on? Deeez or Ksoggy?:lmao2:

[doctordog]

How can spending like a drunken sailor fix the problem? At least when drunken sailors spend all their money it's their money.

When I am broke I do not go out and max out my credit cards, too. Obama's medicine for the economy is "Kill the patient and cure the disease."

God, November can't get here fast enough.

Just a few more months, really, how much more lame duck legislation will they make us suffer?

[2T]

oh hey, Wayers... you are totally wrong btw (I should have known you were repeating a viral email)
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jun/10/chain-email/w-2-tax-forms-hr-3590-health-insurance-pay-taxes/

The chain e-mail is correct that employers will be required to start listing the cost of insurance. The requirement starts for the tax year 2011, so employees will see it on the W-2s they receive in 2012.

But that amount will not be taxed. Current law excludes health insurance from taxable income, and there's nothing in the health care law that changes that.

Several experts on health care benefits and the workplace confirmed that. "It will not affect your taxable income under the new law," said Dallas Salisbury of the Employee Benefit Research Institute in an e-mail interview.

[slowhand]

I didn't, but I think it is funny just the same, squirm some more loser.:taunt:

Whats funny about it?..It's your style asswipe

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showpost.php?p=52497&postcount=12

[doctordog]

oh hey, Wayers... you are totally wrong btw (I should have known you were repeating a viral email)
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jun/10/chain-email/w-2-tax-forms-hr-3590-health-insurance-pay-taxes/

I should have known an idiot would associate what I was referring to to that above, it is not. Obama's bill will tax insurance that many of us have as part of our compensation packages calling them cadillac plans even thought we have premiums and copays.

Next time get the facts.:thumbsup:

[2T]

As usual another lazy fuck supports taxing the working for the non working.:banghead:



you might want to look at facts, 1st, I'm not a lazy fuck, 2nd there is no new tax on health benes in the reform bill afterall.

and I am for removing all the loopholes that allow anyone to skip out on their true tax debt

[2T]

I should have known an idiot would associate what I was referring to to that above, it is not. Obama's bill will tax insurance that many of us have as part of our compensation packages calling them cadillac plans even thought we have premiums and copays.

Next time get the facts.:thumbsup:

quote it and prove it

[nondual]

taxes on insurance I already pay from money that I pay taxes on? How many times should working America be fucked out of their money to support the fuckups that only want their next high, drunk, or food stamps?
You think everyone on welfare is a drug addict gaming the system? Even the disabled and the elderly?

See how dumb you are?

[doctordog]

Whats funny about it?..It's your style asswipe

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showpost.php?p=52497&postcount=12

what's funny is post like the one above are yours, whine, whine, whine

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showpost.php?p=132485&postcount=1178

[doctordog]

You think everyone on welfare is a drug addict gaming the system? Even the disabled and the elderly?

See how dumb you are?

We already have medicare and medicaid for those people, see how dumb you are. You want to change a system that works for the 85% that have insurance for 15% of those that do not.:taunt:

[doctordog]

quote it and prove it

It was covered long ago here, look for it, lazy.

[slowhand]

what's funny is post like the one above are yours, whine, whine, whine

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showpost.php?p=132485&postcount=1178

Dont change the subject asswipe..Anyone who reads through that account who knows Irrp, and knows you, will know that you registered that account, and not him

[nondual]

We already have medicare and medicaid for those people, see how dumb you are. You want to change a system that works for the 85% that have insurance for 15% of those that do not.:taunt:
:lmao2: Really? Medicare and Medicaid send them checks to cover for their rent, food and utilities? I didn't know that! :dunno:

[doctordog]

Dont change the subject asswipe..Anyone who reads through that account who knows Irrp, and knows you, will know that you registered that account, and not him

the subject is your constant whining and how everyone from people behind message board identities (me, Eric, Mint, others) fucked you over to politicians like Bush and Cheney. When was the last time you ever took responsibility for anything that happened to you?

who's fault was all that boozing?:taunt:

[doctordog]

:lmao2: Really? Medicare and Medicaid send them checks to cover for their rent, food and utilities? I didn't know that! :dunno:

healthcare, are you deflecting yet again? how many more times will you do that tonight?:lmao2:

[nondual]

the subject is your constant whining and how everyone from people behind message board identities (me, Eric, Mint, others) fucked you over to politicians like Bush and Cheney. When was the last time you ever took responsibility for anything that happened to you?

who's fault was all that boozing?:taunt:
Wayers, if you take that photo and divide it into 87 squares fitting 1,000 people each, do you think they would fit in that area? I seriously doubt it. :dunno:

[nondual]

healthcare, are you deflecting yet again? how many more times will you do that tonight?:lmao2:
You were the one who mentioned welfare and food stamps. :dunno:

[doctordog]

Wayers, if you take that photo and divide it into 87 squares fitting 1,000 people each, do you think they would fit in that area? I seriously doubt it. :dunno:

no, you would have to get with the rally organizers to get the numbers off of maps for certain areas around the memorial.:lmao2:

[slowhand]

the subject is your constant whining and how everyone from people behind message board identities (me, Eric, Mint, others) fucked you over to politicians like Bush and Cheney. When was the last time you ever took responsibility for anything that happened to you?

who's fault was all that boozing?:taunt:

I havent had a drink in 20 years, more than you can say for yourself

[doctordog]

I havent had a drink in 20 years, more than you can say for yourself

You are correct, I had 8 beers yesterday, none today and probably will not have anymore until next week. Fortunately I do not have and addictive personlaity.

[slowhand]

You are correct, I had 8 beers yesterday, none today and probably will not have anymore until next week. Fortunately I do not have and addictive personlaity.

Thats too bad..It would be an improvement

[doctordog]

Thats too bad..It would be an improvement

maybe so, but so would an end to your constant whining and hissy fits.:thumbsup:

[slowhand]

maybe so, but so would an end to your constant whining and hissy fits.:thumbsup:

Pardon me if I have a low tolerance for assholes

[doctordog]

Pardon me if I have a low tolerance for assholes

So are you lying (you clearly align with assholes) or are just admitting you are one of the biggest cry babies on the boards?

[Trinnity]

Since you are a fan of a team the let go of the BABE and had such as Bill Buckner, I am sure you are.
Another guy who wants english to be the national language, and he cant even speak it himself

You are fluent in broken english though..I'll give you that :lmao2:

Pardon me for pointing out an "inconvenient truth", slow-guy, but if you're going to nit-pick about someone typing "the" instead of "that", check your own text for accuracy before you post it.

"English" should have been capitalized, and you needed a period at the end of both of your sentences.

Oh, and people here aren't "speaking"; they're posting typed comments. Or are you hearing voices in your head?
Grow up.

A debate is just going nowhere when it gets down to parsing text. It's rarely a good idea to do so.

[slowhand]

Pardon me for pointing out an "inconvenient truth", slow-guy, but if you're going to nit-pick about someone typing "the" instead of "that", check your own text for accuracy before you post it.

English should have been capitalized, and you needed a period at the end of both of your sentences.

Oh, and people here aren't "speaking"; they're posting typed comments. Or are you hearing voices in your head?
Grow up.

A debate is just going nowhere when it gets down to parsing text. It's rarely a good idea to do so.

Mind your own fucking business

[Trinnity]

Ouch!!

Sorry.
I'm entitled to post as I see fit, and you may not censor me.

Get your own house in order before you see fit to curse at me.

(See, you DO need to grow up. Thanks for proving the point.)

:lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: :hi:

[slowhand]

Ouch!!

Sorry.
I'm entitled to post as I see fit, and you may not censor me.

Get your own house in order before you see fit to curse at me.

(See, you DO need to grow up. Thanks for proving the point.)

:lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: :hi:

You're welcome..Now beat it

[John Galt]

I should have known an idiot would associate what I was referring to to that above, it is not. Obama's bill will tax insurance that many of us have as part of our compensation packages calling them cadillac plans even thought we have premiums and copays.

Next time get the facts.:thumbsup:
You aren't paying with post tax dollars.

If it's income, it should be taxed.

You aren't entitled to it.

[CosmicRocker]

^ I dunno.
My sister has to go to the Mayo Clinic, she can't get well from her gallbladder operation -she has bloated up ( and is a former aerobics instructor), can't stay out of the can, and is prolly malnourished.

She's been to every specialist local.
Because she VP of saftey co-ordination at Disneyworld, she has a cadillac plan.
She EARNED it -routinely puts in 12 hour days.

Why should she be taxed on it? she pays high income tax, as she makes a lot of money, but has numerous awards, and was at a dinner hosted by Barbara Walters for achievement.

given all than - shouldn't she be able to keep her health plan without taxing it?

Of course Single Pay would eliminate all these disparities, but it ain't happening..

[John Galt]

^ I dunno.
My sister has to go to the Mayo Clinic, she can't get well from her gallbladder operation -she has bloated up ( and is a former aerobics instructor), can't stay out of the can, and is prolly malnourished.

She's been to every specialist local.
Because she VP of saftey co-ordination at Disneyworld, she has a cadillac plan.
She EARNED it -routinely puts in 12 hour days.

Why should she be taxed on it? she pays high income tax, as she makes a lot of money, but has numerous awards, and was at a dinner hosted by Barbara Walters for achievement.

given all than - shouldn't she be able to keep her health plan without taxing it?

Of course Single Pay would eliminate all these disparities, but it ain't happening..
Why?

It's income. If she got a $12,000.00/yr raise, are you saying that she shouldn't be taxed on it, because she earned it?


Why should the taxpayers pay for Wayers' insurance, but not everyone elses?

[2T]

Exactly! why are expensive insurance plans a tax sheltor?

Hey Wayers, what makes you a special class that gets a loophole on income tax? So what you pay premiums and deductibles, add it all up on your tax forms and get your deduction like the rest of us! oh wait, I PAY the 12,000 for my plan with my post taxed dollars - you should write a book and call it...

The Audacity to Whine

[CosmicRocker]

Why?

It's income. If she got a $12,000.00/yr raise, are you saying that she shouldn't be taxed on it, because she earned it?


Why should the taxpayers pay for Wayers' insurance, but not everyone elses?
It's a benefit, it's not income -she can't spend it.
it's only useable if she needs to use it for health purposes.

This is the problem with not having SP - we need money for the uninsured covered under the Obama HC - but taxing it ( she would have to PAY out of her income) for a benefit she earned that is non-monetary is not right.

I know we need to cover the uninsured - suppose she DIDN"T use it -but had to pay taxes on it?
Then your taxing her for something she cannot spend ( no-one uses insurance unless they have to).

Obama's plan is incomplete, it's the worst of both worlds.
Get a PO at least in there/ only SP makes any real sense.

[2T]

Cosmic, benefits are INCOME, they are the output by the company in exchange for the worker's effort on the company's behalf. They are goods with value, they have worth.

[2T]

It's a benefit, it's not income -she can't spend it.
it's only useable if she needs to use it for health purposes.

This is the problem with not having SP - we need money for the uninsured covered under the Obama HC - but taxing it ( she would have to PAY out of her income) for a benefit she earned that is non-monetary is not right.

I know we need to cover the uninsured - suppose she DIDN"T use it -but had to pay taxes on it?
Then your taxing her for something she cannot spend ( no-one uses insurance unless they have to).

Obama's plan is incomplete, it's the worst of both worlds.
Get a PO at least in there/ only SP makes any real sense.


how is that any different than anyone else buying insurance? health insurance is a risk racket, you buy and have no guarentee that you'll need or use it, same as car insurance, home owners insurance.

Your point has no validity.

[MintJulep]

Why?

It's income. If she got a $12,000.00/yr raise, are you saying that she shouldn't be taxed on it, because she earned it?


Why should the taxpayers pay for Wayers' insurance, but not everyone elses?Then why do the SEIU thugs get an exemption?

[MintJulep]

Cosmic, benefits are INCOME, they are the output by the company in exchange for the worker's effort on the company's behalf. They are goods with value, they have worth.Benefits provided to union thugs are also income. Why are they the only group exempted from taxation?

[CosmicRocker]

Cosmic, benefits are INCOME, they are the output by the company in exchange for the worker's effort on the company's behalf. They are goods with value, they have worth.
They are not income, because they are not fungible, unlike every other asset/income.

Only if she uses them do "they have worth" to use your words.

I would have no problem taxing the USE of HC bennies - but not simply taxing them as a source of income

[CosmicRocker]

how is that any different than anyone else buying insurance? health insurance is a risk racket, you buy and have no guarentee that you'll need or use it, same as car insurance, home owners insurance.

Your point has no validity.
But you don't pay taxes on these, you purchase them, maybe pay a sales tax, but not income tax.

[Trinnity]

Slowhand, you prolly beat it all day long. Maybe it's keeping you distracted.
There's gotta be a reason why you can't think "straight".:lmao2:

[2T]

But you don't pay taxes on these, you purchase them, maybe pay a sales tax, but not income tax.


I am not provided with health insurance as a benefit. It is purchased with my take home pay, after taxes

[2T]

Then why do the SEIU thugs get an exemption?

prove it
http://factcheck.org/2010/02/cadillac-plans-and-unions-correlation-minimal/

http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/healthcare/excise_tax10.pdf

[2T]

They are not income, because they are not fungible, unlike every other asset/income.

Only if she uses them do "they have worth" to use your words.

I would have no problem taxing the USE of HC bennies - but not simply taxing them as a source of income


you made a mistake early on - you said she earned it. its income and it has worth

[MintJulep]

prove it
http://factcheck.org/2010/02/cadillac-plans-and-unions-correlation-minimal/

http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/healthcare/excise_tax10.pdf

So emerging from their backrooms, Democrats have agreed to extend a special exemption from the Cadillac tax to any health plan that is part of a collective-bargaining agreement, plus state and local workers, many of whom are unionized. Everyone else with a higher-end plan will start to be taxed in 2013, but union members will get a free pass until 2018.

Ponder that one for a moment. Two workers who are identical in every respect—wages, job, health plan—will be treated differently by the tax system, based solely on union membership. http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB1000142405274870365760457500499241062 1692.html

Why should union thugs be exempt?

[2T]

:lmao2: I'm pondering the date on the article


There's also a tax on the so-called "Cadillac" or "gold-plated" health insurance policies, which are policies that cost significantly more than the national average. The W-2 reporting will allow the IRS to more easily collect the tax. We should also emphasize that the Cadillac tax doesn't go into effect until 2018, and it will apply to health insurance plans that cost more than $10,200 for individual coverage and $27,500 for family coverage, with some exceptions for people in high-risk categories. Most people will not be affected by the tax; analysts expect it to hit fewer than 20 percent of all policies.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jun/10/chain-email/w-2-tax-forms-hr-3590-health-insurance-pay-taxes/

fact is the lobbying by the union thugs to increase the threshold for the tax, benefits more non union than union workers


from my earlier link that you must have missed... (oh the one linked in your quote of me, there)


When the White House and congressional Democrats agreed last month to scale back a Senate-passed tax on high-value health plans, it was widely portrayed as a giveaway to labor unions. For example, the New York Post reported that it was a "sweetheart deal" that would save union members $60 billion, and on its editorial page called it a "bribe" and a "big, fat wet kiss for labor unions," a view quickly echoed by Republican leaders.

Now a new analysis challenges that view with some pertinent facts. It turns out, the Senate-passed tax would affect mainly nonunion workers, and by a wide margin. The study found that under the compromise version of the tax, 17 percent of those affected in 2019 would be union workers and 83 percent would not. It also projects that 71 percent of the dollar savings from the supposed "wet kiss for labor" would actually go to nonunion workers. So the chief beneficiaries of the "sweetheart deal" are not union members at all.

[CosmicRocker]

you made a mistake early on - you said she earned it. its income and it has worth
don't resort to facile word games, address the idea. Please we got enough "gotcha' around here.
She "earned it" as in she earned the rights to useage.

But it is NOT income has NO real worth unless used.
Further it is not transferable (fungible in case you didn't catch my word), nor does it have any marketplace worth unless used.

She could have $3 million ( pick any number) in HC bennies - but she could not buy anything with it.
It also does not increase her net wealth -again unless used.
It's like monopoly money, it's not real unless you are playing on the health care board.

My idea is to tax it ONLY if used, where it does have market value. Then tax it.
Address this point please. show me where I'm wrong

[MintJulep]

:lmao2: I'm pondering the date on the article




http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jun/10/chain-email/w-2-tax-forms-hr-3590-health-insurance-pay-taxes/

fact is the lobbying by the union thugs to increase the threshold for the tax, benefits more non union than union workers


from my earlier link that you must have missed... (oh the one linked in your quote of me, there)What is the reason anyone is exempt -- at all -- from the taxation? Besides a payoff for votes, that is....

[2T]

actually, she can buy healthcare with them

your set of paremeters for determining worth is flawed. the very basis of protection has worth and need not be transferrable to prove it.

[MintJulep]

actually, she can buy healthcare with them

your set of paremeters for determining worth is flawed. the very basis of protection has worth and need not be transferrable to prove it.Insurance is part of a benefits package but hasn't been taxed in the past and shouldn't be since you don't "take home" any money from it.

Just call it what it is, more money to fill the endless pit know as the gubbmint coffers.

[CosmicRocker]

actually, she can buy healthcare with them

your set of paremeters for determining worth is flawed. the very basis of protection has worth and need not be transferrable to prove it.
"The basis of protection has worth?" perhaps -i'll buy that point. OK

But it doesn't have MARKET worth, only in a very limited scenario.
still she is being taxed (income tax) as if it is real income.

It is not, it is not fungible, not transferable, it's insurance, but unlike whole life has no instrinsict value.

Suppose you buy HC insurance -it's sitting there -whether you buy it or your employer pays for it
would you want to pay income tax on your policies limits?

Yet you're asking her to do that.

[MintJulep]

"The basis of protection has worth?" perhaps -i'll buy that point. OK

But it doesn't have MARKET worth, only in a very limited scenario.
still she is being taxed (income tax) as if it is real income.

It is not, it is not fungible, not transferable, it's insurance, but unlike whole life has no instrinsict value.

Suppose you buy HC insurance -it's sitting there -whether you buy it or your employer pays for it
would you want to pay income tax on your policies limits?

Yet you're asking her to do that.Cosmic, give it up. These Obamatrons would defend a tax on the air you breath. Reasoning never enters the equation.

[dsolo802]

don't resort to facile word games, address the idea. Please we got enough "gotcha' around here.
She "earned it" as in she earned the rights to useage.

But it is NOT income has NO real worth unless used.
Further it is not transferable (fungible in case you didn't catch my word), nor does it have any marketplace worth unless used.

She could have $3 million ( pick any number) in HC bennies - but she could not buy anything with it.
It also does not increase her net wealth -again unless used.
It's like monopoly money, it's not real unless you are playing on the health care board.

My idea is to tax it ONLY if used, where it does have market value. Then tax it.
Address this point please. show me where I'm wrongFirst you could have fooled Corporate America: Health Care Benefits are counted as part of total compensation packages paid out by virtually every company in America that offer Health Care to compete for the best workers.

Second and most importantly, Health Care coverage has real present value as evidenced by the money that Private Health Care Insurance Companies charge in the form of premiums, and the coverage they provide for medical claims because they have accepted those premiums. The right to health care under a valid Insurance contract is fully vested.

[dsolo802]

Cosmic, give it up. Cosmic does what you steadfastly refuse to do - engage in actual debate on the merits. With you, it is only about name calling.

[CosmicRocker]

Cosmic, give it up. These Obamatrons would defend a tax on the air you breath. Reasoning never enters the equation.
If we were just honest about it, and say "the weathy have the means" ( even though HC is not real wealth) and for the good of society, must be taxed.

I'd at least say "OK" then we could have a philosophical discussion.

I support Single Pay just for that reason, I see HC as a right - or at least a moral obligation for all Americans - this is where I deviate from the conservatives.

But don't sit there and tell me it's "income" -it is not, it only has worth if it's used, you cannot bank it, buy with it, nor transfer it's value.
all other assets are fungible , not HC policies.

[dsolo802]

If we were just honest about it, and say "the weathy have the means" ( even though HC is not real wealth) and for the good of society, must be taxed.

I'd at least say "OK" then we could have a philosophical discussion.

I support Single Pay just for that reason, I see HC as a right - or at least a moral obligation for all Americans - this is where I deviate from the conservatives.

But don't sit there and tell me it's "income" -it is not, it only has worth if it's used, you cannot bank it, buy with it, nor transfer it's value.
all other assets are fungible , not HC policies.Your vested right to health care paid for in whole or in part by an employer or anyone else, which right is not transferable, has real monetary value to you, and represents taxable income to the extent that value exceeds what you paid for it.

[2T]

What is the reason anyone is exempt -- at all -- from the taxation? Besides a payoff for votes, that is....

who is exempt? people receiving polcies under a certain number (value) because its a progressive tax system.
I know thats your crux, I saw early that you've bitten onto the flat tax mythology. The numbers don't pan out and it would be anything but fair :talktothehand:

[2T]

If we were just honest about it, and say "the weathy have the means" ( even though HC is not real wealth) and for the good of society, must be taxed.

I'd at least say "OK" then we could have a philosophical discussion.

I support Single Pay just for that reason, I see HC as a right - or at least a moral obligation for all Americans - this is where I deviate from the conservatives.

But don't sit there and tell me it's "income" -it is not, it only has worth if it's used, you cannot bank it, buy with it, nor transfer it's value.
all other assets are fungible , not HC policies.

Its already a progressive tax system, I'm not being put in a position argueing that. It is what we've always had

[gOd]

Cosmic does what you steadfastly refuse to do - engage in actual debate on the merits. With you, it is only about name calling.
It's not only name calling. It's also hyperbole and ad hominem.

[doctordog]

Why?

It's income. If she got a $12,000.00/yr raise, are you saying that she shouldn't be taxed on it, because she earned it?


Why should the taxpayers pay for Wayers' insurance, but not everyone elses?

Taxpayers aren't paying for my insurance, I pay a small percentage and the company pays the rest.

Under Obama's plan even thought I have insurance I have to pay for everyone else's that doesn't have it.

[Fulltimer]

Taxpayers aren't paying for my insurance. The company I retireed from pays the whole bill on my health insurance, dental insurance, prescription insurance, and legal insurance. I get taxed on a small amount that is called the implied value of my legal insurance.

It has been the GOP's position since Richard Nixon that worker's negotiated benefits should be taxed as income. I am confused about when the GOP decided to reverse their position on this issue.




don

[CosmicRocker]

Your vested right to health care paid for in whole or in part by an employer or anyone else, which right is not transferable, has real monetary value to you, and represents taxable income to the extent that value exceeds what you paid for it.
the only monetary value is for useage, unlike a true asset, it is not transferable, or money specie.
Only if used is of worth, otherewsie it exists only on paper a "potential" asset.

If I don't get sick, or go to a dr. it has no value.
I don't agree it has "real monetary value" - perhaps on a balance sheet, or in theory, but what good is it for anything outside of HC?

That's why I called it Monopoy money - it's not real usless used for HC.

It should not be taxed, since it has no intrinsict worth.
If I use it, then it's an exchanged for goods and services.

So I could go along with taxing it, but only at the point of purchase.

[CosmicRocker]

I'm not a big fan of Obama's health care plan .I think it's a ''gimme'' to the insurance industry.I would have liked across the board,single payer for everyone..

But,you've ALWAYS been paying for the unisured..Who do you think picks up the tab for the over 50,000,000 million uninsured people in our country? If you said, ''$500 for Taxpayers Alex"" you'd be correct..
Which is why only Single Pay, is the most cost effective, it eliminates the middleman, and is universal. Obama has no cost controls on the current plan.
It would be paid for just like progressive income tax, the more you make more you pay.

[doctordog]

I'm not a big fan of Obama's health care plan .I think it's a ''gimme'' to the insurance industry.I would have liked across the board,single payer for everyone..

But,you've ALWAYS been paying for the unisured..Who do you think picks up the tab for the over 50,000,000 million uninsured people in our country? If you said, ''$500 for Taxpayers Alex"" you'd be correct..

Correct, but under Obama's plan people that are responsible in obtaining insurance will pay more than anyone else.

[2T]

who is not reasonsible for obtaining insurance?

[John Galt]

Which is why only Single Pay, is the most cost effective, it eliminates the middleman, and is universal. Obama has no cost controls on the current plan.
It would be paid for just like progressive income tax, the more you make more you pay.
You aren't taking in the wide perspective here.

Wayers, Fulltimer, and everyone else that get employee based health insurance, is doing so at taxpayer expense.

In Fulltimer's case, we're losing twice, because retiree based hc is currently 'double dipped' by employers, as an incentive to give same. I believe most companies pay 27%, and get to take that twice. I remember that from the John Deere/Caterpillar threads, but that may have only been their agreed upon deal.

When a company 'gives' healthcare, they claim it as a tax deduction. Whatever pittance Wayers contributes, he does so with pre tax dollars.

Yet, you, 2T or anyone else must pay with post tax dollars...although I'm lucky to have my own little tax deductions for my out of pocket expenses.

So yes...the taxpayer IS paying for healthcare.

A tax deduction reduces tax liability on a company. You do the math.

[dsolo802]

It's not only name calling. It's also hyperbole and ad hominem.Definitely -- exposing either an unwillingness or inability to discuss the actual issues.

[doctordog]

You aren't taking in the wide perspective here.

Wayers, Fulltimer, and everyone else that get employee based health insurance, is doing so at taxpayer expense.

In Fulltimer's case, we're losing twice, because retiree based hc is currently 'double dipped' by employers, as an incentive to give same. I believe most companies pay 27%, and get to take that twice. I remember that from the John Deere/Caterpillar threads, but that may have only been their agreed upon deal.

When a company 'gives' healthcare, they claim it as a tax deduction. Whatever pittance Wayers contributes, he does so with pre tax dollars.

Yet, you, 2T or anyone else must pay with post tax dollars...although I'm lucky to have my own little tax deductions for my out of pocket expenses.

So yes...the taxpayer IS paying for healthcare.

A tax deduction reduces tax liability on a company. You do the math.

Why must they pay with post tax dollars? They choose.

[CosmicRocker]

You aren't taking in the wide perspective here.

Wayers, Fulltimer, and everyone else that get employee based health insurance, is doing so at taxpayer expense.

In Fulltimer's case, we're losing twice, because retiree based hc is currently 'double dipped' by employers, as an incentive to give same. I believe most companies pay 27%, and get to take that twice. I remember that from the John Deere/Caterpillar threads, but that may have only been their agreed upon deal.

When a company 'gives' healthcare, they claim it as a tax deduction. Whatever pittance Wayers contributes, he does so with pre tax dollars.

Yet, you, 2T or anyone else must pay with post tax dollars...although I'm lucky to have my own little tax deductions for my out of pocket expenses.

So yes...the taxpayer IS paying for healthcare.

A tax deduction reduces tax liability on a company. You do the math.
Ok, I see that, and didn't know that -I;m an Independent Contractor, and don't get bennies -so I use a free clinic.

Why does the employer get to claim a deduction though, and then the new law also wants to tax only CERTAIN high bennie plans?

Seem like that is "double dipping" by taxing the employeee, after the employer is getting a deduction.

wouldn't it just be more logical to not allow the deduction?
Just make employer based HC a cost of doing business?

Or taxing everyone for their HC bennies?

The whole thing is a mess, I need green eyeshades to figure this out.

Single Pay would eliminate all these disparituies.

[gOd]

Definitely -- exposing either an unwillingness or inability to discuss the actual issues.
It's not the former it's the latter. Unwillingness implies that she actually knows something.

[doctordog]

Which is why only Single Pay, is the most cost effective, it eliminates the middleman, and is universal. Obama has no cost controls on the current plan.
It would be paid for just like progressive income tax, the more you make more you pay.

Why should people that make more pay more for the same services? isn't that discrimination?

[John Galt]

wouldn't it just be more logical to not allow the deduction?
Just make employer based HC a cost of doing business?

Or taxing everyone for their HC bennies?

The whole thing is a mess, I need green eyeshades to figure this out.

Single Pay would eliminate all these disparituies.
I believe the transfer of burden to the employee, will take the burden off of businesses.

As well, there are supposed to be 'exchanges' set up so that we can shop for rates.

California is attempting to set one up now, but republicans are blocking it...big surprise.

[doctordog]

I believe the transfer of burden to the employee, will take the burden off of businesses.

As well, there are supposed to be 'exchanges' set up so that we can shop for rates.

California is attempting to set one up now, but republicans are blocking it...big surprise.

I would be glad to pay all of my insurance if my company raised my pay in accordance with compensation being taken away. I would go back to the 10k deductible I plan I had before taking this job.

[dsolo802]

the only monetary value is for useage, unlike a true asset, it is not transferable, or money specie.
Only if used is of worth, otherewsie it exists only on paper a "potential" asset.

If I don't get sick, or go to a dr. it has no value.
I don't agree it has "real monetary value" - perhaps on a balance sheet, or in theory, but what good is it for anything outside of HC?

That's why I called it Monopoy money - it's not real usless used for HC.

It should not be taxed, since it has no intrinsict worth.
If I use it, then it's an exchanged for goods and services.

So I could go along with taxing it, but only at the point of purchase.If you are current with your premiums you can immediately use it to get a doctor's check up, to have tests run, to have a covered procedures performed. You have to the torture the definition of income to argue that's not of certain value and is not income.

[CosmicRocker]

If you are current with your premiums you can immediately use it to get a doctor's check up, to have tests run, to have a covered procedures performed. You have to the torture the definition of income to argue that's not of certain value and is not income.
It's possible income, which does torture the definition, but HC bennies are unique.

I can't thnk of any other income that can only be used for a single purpose, is non-transferable, isn't money specie or intangible/tangible asset.

So it is a tortured definition, i agree, but so is the useage of such supposed income.

[Fulltimer]

I am sorry I missed the Caterpillar discussion.
I retired from Cat in 1995 at the age of 48 with full pension and all my benefits paid for life.

Caterpillar and the UAW had been engaged in a decades long strike where the company was insisting on all workers taking a 75% pay cut and all benefits being canceled. This demand came during the company's most profitable year and the UAW said no and went on strike.

Ronald Reagan was President and having been the president of the Screen Actors Guild understood labor law. While it was illegal to fire a striking worker Reagan declared the company could "Permanently Replace" those workers.

The union ended the strike but refused to agree to the cuts in pay and benefits so the company "imposed" a unilateral contract that stipulated any new workers hired would be paid minimum wage and no benefits--ever.

The standoff lasted about 12 years and the courts finally ruled in favor of the union but meanwhile the economic situation had changed to the point the agreement was ratified with the provision existing workers would continue to receive their rate of pay and the benefits that were in effect at the time of the last agreement. Because I retired before this agreement I have not had to pay for any of my insurance as has those who retired after the settlement was reached.

All new hires were paid minimum wage and got no benefits.

No sick time, vacation, retirement, insurance, or accumulated service time. In other words all new hires were temporary workers.

The benefits lost were, at the time I retired:

Fully paid medical, dental, prescription, vision, legal, and mental health insurance.
5 weeks paid vacation, 50 hours sick or personal leave time, full retirement after 30 years service as well as paid lunch and paid jury duty if called. I retired at a pay scale of $18 per hour with time and a half paid for any work on Saturday or over 8 hours a day and double time for work on any of the 14 paid holidays or Sunday.

If Caterpillar were required to supply benefits to its hourly employees it would cost them a lot of money but when you think of the fact that even McDonald's provides some benefits for their workers it makes it hard to feel sorry for their plight.

The Republicans have long been trying to tax worker's company supplied benefits and as recently as the last election the GOP candidate campaigned on the platform of taxing those benefits.



don

[gOd]

Dont change the subject asswipe..Anyone who reads through that account who knows Irrp, and knows you, will know that you registered that account, and not him
Anyone who knows lrrp knows that it's a lowercase L not an I.

[John Galt]

I am sorry I missed the Caterpillar discussion.
I retired from Cat in 1995 at the age of 48 with full pension and all my benefits paid for life.

Caterpillar and the UAW had been engaged in a decades long strike where the company was insisting on all workers taking a 75% pay cut and all benefits being canceled. This demand came during the company's most profitable year and the UAW said no and went on strike.

Ronald Reagan was President and having been the president of the Screen Actors Guild understood labor law. While it was illegal to fire a striking worker Reagan declared the company could "Permanently Replace" those workers.

The union ended the strike but refused to agree to the cuts in pay and benefits so the company "imposed" a unilateral contract that stipulated any new workers hired would be paid minimum wage and no benefits--ever.

The standoff lasted about 12 years and the courts finally ruled in favor of the union but meanwhile the economic situation had changed to the point the agreement was ratified with the provision existing workers would continue to receive their rate of pay and the benefits that were in effect at the time of the last agreement. Because I retired before this agreement I have not had to pay for any of my insurance as has those who retired after the settlement was reached.

All new hires were paid minimum wage and got no benefits.

No sick time, vacation, retirement, insurance, or accumulated service time. In other words all new hires were temporary workers.

The benefits lost were, at the time I retired:

Fully paid medical, dental, prescription, vision, legal, and mental health insurance.
5 weeks paid vacation, 50 hours sick or personal leave time, full retirement after 30 years service as well as paid lunch and paid jury duty if called. I retired at a pay scale of $18 per hour with time and a half paid for any work on Saturday or over 8 hours a day and double time for work on any of the 14 paid holidays or Sunday.

If Caterpillar were required to supply benefits to its hourly employees it would cost them a lot of money but when you think of the fact that even McDonald's provides some benefits for their workers it makes it hard to feel sorry for their plight.

The Republicans have long been trying to tax worker's company supplied benefits and as recently as the last election the GOP candidate campaigned on the platform of taxing those benefits.



don
Funny how the republicans stand for something, until it comes time to get it done. Then, they just plug up the Senate.


At issue here, is the constant call for removal of entitlements, by those on the right.

Yet, they feel they've 'earned' those entitlements when it comes to addressing their own.

Your company writes off your benefits, as the cost of doing business.

In essence, taxpayers are paying for your benefits.

I don't criticize you for accepting them....I would love to have them myself.


I'm just here to point out to others, that you should check your own situation, before you lump everyone into a 'lazy/hippie/socialist/commie/etc. etc. etc. group.


Unfunded tax cuts for millionaires? No problem.


Unfunded loan program for small business? Socialism.

Entitlement programs for employee based healthcare? Fine, as long as it's for them.


Entitlements for the millions who have no healthcare? Socialism.

[Fulltimer]

Funny how the republicans stand for something, until it comes time to get it done. Then, they just plug up the Senate.


At issue here, is the constant call for removal of entitlements, by those on the right.

Yet, they feel they've 'earned' those entitlements when it comes to addressing their own.

Your company writes off your benefits, as the cost of doing business.

In essence, taxpayers are paying for your benefits.

I don't criticize you for accepting them....I would love to have them myself.


I'm just here to point out to others, that you should check your own situation, before you lump everyone into a 'lazy/hippie/socialist/commie/etc. etc. etc. group.


Unfunded tax cuts for millionaires? No problem.


Unfunded loan program for small business? Socialism.

Entitlement programs for employee based healthcare? Fine, as long as it's for them.


Entitlements for the millions who have no healthcare? Socialism.

I wouldn't object to having the cost of my benefits declared as income.

While I have great benefits at no cost to me I support a single payer health care program where all Americans can enjoy the same level of healthcare.

It is not just the taxes on the costs of the insurance that is paid by others it is also the cut rate prices that is paid by my insurance provider when I take advantage of those benefits that are paid by the folks with no free insurance coverage.

When I go to the hospital United Health Care pays less than 10% of the billed charges through a negotiated agreement with the doctors and hospitals. The other 90% is tacked onto other patient's bills who are private payers or passed on to the citizens of the county.

On a bill of $30,000 plus UHC paid only $2,000 and the hospital stamped my bill "Paid in Full".

If I had no insurance the hospital would have demanded the full $30,000 at the time of service. They would expect me to mortage my home for the service.

This scheme of multiple charged rates is just wrong.

[slowhand]

Anyone who knows lrrp knows that it's a lowercase L not an I.

Exactly..........

[gOd]

Exactly..........
You'd have to be the biggest idiot ever to try and pose as someone else and misspell their name. We're talking completely retarded.

[slowhand]

You'd have to be the biggest idiot ever to try and pose as someone else and misspell their name. We're talking completely retarded.

Stupid is as stupid does

[gOd]

Stupid is as stupid does
He must be inbred. I bet he has 13 toes and 11 fingers.

[doctordog]

You'd have to be the biggest idiot ever to try and pose as someone else and misspell their name. We're talking completely retarded.

Look at your handle dumbass:lmao2: :lmao2:

[gOd]

Look at your handle dumbass:lmao2: :lmao2:
I spelled it correctly. After all, it's my handle.

[doctordog]

I spelled it correctly. After all, it's my handle.

You attempt to impersonate an entity and can't even spell it correctly! fucking dumbass gay redneck!:lmao2:

[Smurf-Herder]

Okay guys, cut back on the insults please.

[gOd]

You attempt to impersonate an entity and can't even spell it correctly! fucking dumbass gay redneck!:lmao2:

Stop projecting, Irrp. :lmao2:

[gOd]

Okay guys, cut back on the insults please.
Fine by me. Say, Smurf, what's the policy here with regard to having multiple accounts?

[MintJulep]

Stop projecting, Irrp. :lmao2:Are you talking about the ball-less wonder and vapid bore named Deacon Blues who writes like a discombobulated overblown windbag? LOL.

[Smurf-Herder]

Fine by me. Say, Smurf, what's the policy here with regard to having multiple accounts?

It's right there in the board rules - not allowed!

[Libertarian94]

It's right there in the board rules - not allowed!

Why did you keep Captian Obvious' second account secret?:D

[gOd]

It's right there in the board rules - not allowed!
It makes one wonder why Wayers is attacking me. I was making an observation about Irrp. This is, quite obviously, a dummy account.

[Smurf-Herder]

Why did you keep Captian Obvious' second account secret?:D

What are you talking about?

[Libertarian94]

What are you talking about?

You know.:D

[MintJulep]

It makes one wonder why Wayers is attacking me. I was making an observation about Irrp. This is, quite obviously, a dummy account.Attacking you? It's you who is doing the attacking -- in every thread.

Why don't you go back in your hidey hole and talk about us where no one can see it, chicken little?

[doctordog]

It makes one wonder why Wayers is attacking me. I was making an observation about Irrp. This is, quite obviously, a dummy account.

This post makes me wonder why you are here, is it to finally admit you are a LIAR?

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showpost.php?p=149875&postcount=1

[gOd]

This post makes me wonder why you are here, is it to finally admit you are a LIAR?

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showpost.php?p=149875&postcount=1
What's wrong Wayers? You seem so defensive.

[MintJulep]

This post makes me wonder why you are here, is it to finally admit you are a LIAR?

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showpost.php?p=149875&postcount=1I remember, right before he left last time -- I nailed him in a flat-out lie.

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showpost.php?p=150653&postcount=38

[Smurf-Herder]

You know.:D

No I don't. Explain yourself.

[gOd]

I remember, right before he left last time -- I nailed him in a flat-out lie.

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showpost.php?p=150653&postcount=38
I didn't lie. I changed my mind.

[John Galt]

I wouldn't object to having the cost of my benefits declared as income.

While I have great benefits at no cost to me I support a single payer health care program where all Americans can enjoy the same level of healthcare.

It is not just the taxes on the costs of the insurance that is paid by others it is also the cut rate prices that is paid by my insurance provider when I take advantage of those benefits that are paid by the folks with no free insurance coverage.

When I go to the hospital United Health Care pays less than 10% of the billed charges through a negotiated agreement with the doctors and hospitals. The other 90% is tacked onto other patient's bills who are private payers or passed on to the citizens of the county.

On a bill of $30,000 plus UHC paid only $2,000 and the hospital stamped my bill "Paid in Full".

If I had no insurance the hospital would have demanded the full $30,000 at the time of service. They would expect me to mortage my home for the service.

This scheme of multiple charged rates is just wrong.
Clear thinking...like a breath of fresh air.

You worked hard, you earned your retirement. At least you know that the flawed system is at the expense of others who came after you.


That's the irony of the right wing propaganda.

They enjoy the fruits of others' labor, while denouncing the taking advantage of the fruits of others' labor.

[dsolo802]

It's possible income, which does torture the definition, but HC bennies are unique.If you are get a dollar bonus from your employer, it is income to you even though you have to spend it to get real value from it.

If you are given health care benefits, and can immediately get a doctor's appointment on demand, it is income to you even though that benefit is not as flexible as that single green back. It has definite value. It is not possible income. It is income, taxable income. I'm just using the definition of taxable income as it has always been recognized, nothing fancy, and nothing new.

Another example, if I work out an exchange of services with another person, let's say I offer to mow a Doctor's lawn in exchange for a basic health exam, and get the Doctor to agree to give that exam to you instead of me, unless that can be viewed as gift out of the goodness of my heart, your right to an exam on demand from the doctor is income to you.

For an interesting article that highlights some of these principles, take a look here (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/060828/28webtax.htm).