Why are so many Americans doing time & on probation/parole??

[Bill Cosby]

Are we really this bad??
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Prisoner_population_rate_UN_HDR_2007_2008.PNG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg/693px-US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg.png

[Moby]

It's a combination of the Religeous Right and the War on Drugs.

[Mason66]

Everything is legislated.

There is no doubt it is a business. The more people in the system, the more money they move around.

If you have ever been involved in a case, they not only put you on probation, they also fine the hell out of you.

It is only about money and I think California is the worst.

[mwillman]

Just another example of what the right wants this nation to be, namely a totalitarian police state. They claim to be for individual rights and freedom but if you look at the chart it starts its massive increase under Reagen when the neo cons began the take over of this nation.

Now we are one of the most incarcerated nations on earth. Lets not forget that if we didn't incarcerate that many people then we wouldn't need so many cops or prison guards and they are strong right wing unions.

[Bill Cosby]

Everything is legislated.

There is no doubt it is a business. The more people in the system, the more money they move around.

If you have ever been involved in a case, they not only put you on probation, they also fine the hell out of you.

It is only about money and I think California is the worst.

Why you think Calif is the worst??

[AK Gandy]

It's a combination of the Religeous Right and the War on Drugs.

Exactly.

Let's not forget that a certain minority group that makes up about 14% of our general population..............makes up over 40% of the prison population. :doh:

But hey, sentencing disparity doesn't really exist. :rolleyes:

.

[MarkMiller]

Everything is legislated.

There is no doubt it is a business. The more people in the system, the more money they move around.

If you have ever been involved in a case, they not only put you on probation, they also fine the hell out of you.

It is only about money and I think California is the worst.
Now....California is one of the worst in cost per prisoner. Not the worst but high per national average. Other than that it seems to be over in a couple more places but, over all, is below average nationaly.

http://nicic.gov/features/statestats/?State=CA

[Mr, gone]

IMO, privatized prison is an industry, and as such needs resources to grow (human resources). Petty crimes are exaggerated, three strikes and you make the corporation big dollars. There is also a culture in this country that glorifies criminals in movies and TV. One that neither shows respect for either others property, nor cares about their safety.

By contrast one only needs to look at Japan for example. One of the highest population densities on earth. their crime rate is relatively low. Why??? They humiliate criminal behavior, by parading them around in public for all to see. Making them clean the streets and perform other 'dirty' jobs.

So why is the US just locking them away? It make these companies a lot of money!

[2T]

war on drugs and zero tolerance laws,, FAIL

[Bill Cosby]

IMO, privatized prison is an industry, and as such needs resources to grow (human resources). Petty crimes are exaggerated, three strikes and you make the corporation big dollars. There is also a culture in this country that glorifies criminals in movies and TV. One that neither shows respect for either others property, nor cares about their safety.

By contrast one only needs to look at Japan for example. One of the highest population densities on earth. their crime rate is relatively low. Why??? They humiliate criminal behavior, by parading them around in public for all to see. Making them clean the streets and perform other 'dirty' jobs.

So why is the US just locking them away? It make these companies a lot of money!

Wow, you can't say that, it is not politically correct..... :lmao2: (I think there is certainly some truth to that.lol)

I think that is very effective & perhaps much, much cheaper than paying $25,000 a year to lock them up........ Stain them, cane them & release them..

Repeat offenders can do their time................ But w/ a focus on rehab not just punishment........

[kres24GT]

As we move toward the police state it is only going to get worse. As the politicians pass laws telling us how we have to live our lives, whether its what we can put in our bodies, or forcing us to buy medical insurance, they can lock us up when we fail to comply. Every time yo vote for more government you are voting for more people in jails.

[Moby]

But w/ a focus on rehab not just punishment........
I don't believe in sentences given out as a length of time. I think they should be in hours worked.

A 1 year sentence becomes 2,000 hours of work. If the person works 120 hours a week they're out in 4 months and they've just learned to work 120 hour work weeks. Suddenly working 40 hours or even 60 doesn't seem so bad.

[doctordog]

Just another example of what the right wants this nation to be, namely a totalitarian police state. They claim to be for individual rights and freedom but if you look at the chart it starts its massive increase under Reagen when the neo cons began the take over of this nation.



Now we are one of the most incarcerated nations on earth. Lets not forget that if we didn't incarcerate that many people then we wouldn't need so many cops or prison guards and they are strong right wing unions.

Actually it is because of the liberal states that regulate guns so damn tight that citizens can't protect themselves so crime stays steady. One open season on criminals and the jail time would start to decrease.

[T-Cat]

Actually it is because of the liberal states that regulate guns so damn tight that citizens can't protect themselves so crime stays steady. One open season on criminals and the jail time would start to decrease.Then why would conservative states have by far the highest incarceration rates then? It should be the other way around.

[GetAClue]

Are we really this bad??

It could be that we are the victims of the lack of morals being taught and expected in our society. When we teach our kids that personal responsibility doesn't matter and they are not responsible for their actions or that no matter how many mistakes you make, you'll keep getting another chance, is it any wonder that we are locking so many people up?

[GetAClue]

Exactly.

Let's not forget that a certain minority group that makes up about 14% of our general population..............makes up over 40% of the prison population. :doh:

But hey, sentencing disparity doesn't really exist. :rolleyes:

.
Or it could be that they are committing the most crimes. Did you ever consider that?


Read this article. http://www.city-journal.org/2010/eon0514hm.html

[mwillman]

Actually it is because of the liberal states that regulate guns so damn tight that citizens can't protect themselves so crime stays steady. One open season on criminals and the jail time would start to decrease.


Get your facts straight wayers as usual you are wrong. Like others have said its the conservative states that have the highest incarceration rates so maybe it just the right wingers that want to have a police state as long as its not them that are getting arrested.

[mwillman]

Or it could be that they are committing the most crimes. Did you ever consider that?


Read this article. http://www.city-journal.org/2010/eon0514hm.html

And why are they committing those crimes? Could it be that they have a 40% unemployment rate because white people hire white people or maybe its because banks controlled by white people refuse to loan money in black communities for businesses.

You talk about equality but we are no were near equality in this nation and ignoring the problem will not make it better.

[GetAClue]

And why are they committing those crimes? Could it be that they have a 40% unemployment rate because white people hire white people or maybe its because banks controlled by white people refuse to loan money in black communities for businesses.

You talk about equality but we are no were near equality in this nation and ignoring the problem will not make it better.
So what you are saying is that you have no argument that a greater proportion of crimes are committed by minorities thus justifying the higher incarceration rate? :thumbsup:

[Bill Cosby]

It could be that we are the victims of the lack of morals being taught and expected in our society. When we teach our kids that personal responsibility doesn't matter and they are not responsible for their actions or that no matter how many mistakes you make, you'll keep getting another chance, is it any wonder that we are locking so many people up?

I don't teach my kids that, do you???

I agree that "moral decay" plays a part but I don't know to what extent.. That is to say we kinda look back w/ rose colored glasses & I don't think our forefathers were any more or less "moral" than us.......

I don't see our society as being more lenient either, in fact less so.... Perhaps in regards to some crimes the sentences are less severe but in other crimes like drugs etc the penalties are very severe, & some stupidly so....

Like the powered vs crack cocaine........ Laws based on small amounts seem to be lenient but if the druggie is a good shopper & buys in quantity for a better price he can be rewarded w/ much more time..

:dunno:

[GetAClue]

I don't teach my kids that, do you???
I don't either, but it is in front of them every day. Just look at how many celebrities are busted for various crimes and then have their hands slapped only to repeat the offense again with the same result.

We as a society have removed personal responsibility from the equation in many aspects of our lives.

[Moby]

Actually it is because of the liberal states that regulate guns so damn tight that citizens can't protect themselves so crime stays steady. One open season on criminals and the jail time would start to decrease.
Wow, Wayers, I think this is the most uneducated response on the issue that I could ever imagine.

Gun toting states have very high incarceration rates.

Over 500,000 people are in prison on minor drug charges.

Western Europe has very strict gun control and they have far fewer people in prison.

Canada where people don't have hand guns have very much lower rates.

Japan and Singapore where you can't even get a hand gun unless your are special police had a far lower rate.

It seems that an increase in gun ownership leads to more crime being committed but I'm sure that you have your own facts and stats to support your beliefs. Or did you just read it at The Washington Examiner.

[FredK]

Legalize drugs like Portugal did and watch the crime rate go down.

5 Years After: Portugal's Drug Decriminalization Policy Shows Positive Results
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=portugal-drug-decriminalization

"Now instead of being put into prison, addicts are going to treatment centers and they're learning how to control their drug usage or getting off drugs entirely," report author Glenn Greenwald, a former New York State constitutional litigator, said during a press briefing at Cato last week.

Under the Portuguese plan, penalties for people caught dealing and trafficking drugs are unchanged; dealers are still jailed and subjected to fines depending on the crime. But people caught using or possessing small amounts—defined as the amount needed for 10 days of personal use—are brought before what's known as a "Dissuasion Commission," an administrative body created by the 2001 law.

Each three-person commission includes at least one lawyer or judge and one health care or social services worker. The panel has the option of recommending treatment, a small fine, or no sanction.


Wake up and take off the rose colored glasses. :disbelief:

[AK Gandy]

So what you are saying is that you have no argument that a greater proportion of crimes are committed by minorities thus justifying the higher incarceration rate?

The "greater proportion of crimes" are committed by the poor.

A greater proportion of blacks are poor, primarily because of exactly what mwillman saidAnd why are they committing those crimes? Could it be that they have a 40% unemployment rate because white people hire white people or maybe its because banks controlled by white people refuse to loan money in black communities for businesses.

You talk about equality but we are no were near equality in this nation and ignoring the problem will not make it better..

As to the point I was making about sentencing disparities, how do you explain that until a few weeks ago........those arrested for crack cocaine had a much more severe mandatory sentencing than those caught with powder cocaine? And I think we all know who is more likely to have access to crack cocaine. :doh:

Sentencing Disparity (http://www.academon.com/Research-Paper-Sentencing-Disparities/95408) (click here)

"There are more African-American individuals on death row than white individuals and most of these individuals awaiting execution have committed drug crimes, many of which involved crack, and less that involved powder cocaine. Even the Attorney General of the United States is willing to admit that drug laws are the main reason that there are so many African-Americans on death row today and that African-Americans are arrested at a higher rate for these types of crimes than Caucasian individuals.

[GetAClue]

The "greater proportion of crimes" are committed by the poor.

A greater proportion of blacks are poor, primarily because of exactly what mwillman said.
No, you were specifically referring to the incarceration rate of minorities as opposed to whites. You said NOTHING about the financial status of the collective groups and until mwillman attempted to change the subject, you were quiet on the issue after my response to you.

The fact of the matter is that the incarceration rates among the prison populations are directly proportional to the rate of crimes committed by these two groups. If you want to get into a discussion of the reasons behind the financial positions of these two groups, that would be the topic of another thread.

As to the point I was making about sentencing disparities, how do you explain that until a few weeks ago........those arrested for crack cocaine had a much more severe mandatory sentencing than those caught with powder cocaine? And I think we all know who is more likely to have access to crack cocaine. :doh:

Sentencing Disparity (http://www.academon.com/Research-Paper-Sentencing-Disparities/95408) (click here)
Again, what does this have to do with the incarceration rates of minorities? This looks like another attempt to change the topic just as it appears that you have no valid argument to back your previous position on the topic being discussed. Nice try. :thumbsup:

[AK Gandy]

No, you were specifically referring to the incarceration rate of minorities as opposed to whites. You said NOTHING about the financial status of the collective groups and until mwillman attempted to change the subject, you were quiet on the issue after my response to you.I was "quiet".............. because I was out playing golf. :rolleyes:


The fact of the matter is that the incarceration rates among the prison populations are directly proportional to the rate of crimes committed by these two groups.Wrong.

It is directly related to who is chosen to be prosecuted and sentencing that each group gets.



Again, what does this have to do with the incarceration rates of minorities? This looks like another attempt to change the topic just as it appears that you have no valid argument to back your previous position on the topic being discussed. You didn't even read the links..now did you? :doh:

Here's another one but, I'll bet you won't bother to read it either.

Sentencing Project (http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_sentencing_review.pdf)(click here)
Key findings:· There is evidence of direct racial discrimination (against minority defendants in sentencing outcomes);
· Evidence of direct discrimination at the federal level is more prominent than at the state level;
· Blacks are more likely to be disadvantaged in terms of sentence length at the federal level, whereas Latinos are more likely to be disadvantaged in terms of the decision to incarcerate;
· At the state level, both Latinos and blacks are far more likely to be disadvantaged in the decision to incarcerate or not, as opposed to the decision regarding sentence length.

Forty studies have been published that examine data collected since 1980 in order to determine whether racial and ethnic bias exists in the sentencing process.


Nice try.
Trying to get other people to look at a subject through a clear lens of facts, and not from an emotional perspective...............is always a "good try." :D


.

[GetAClue]

I was "quiet".............. because I was out playing golf. :rolleyes:


Wrong.

It is directly related to who is chosen to be prosecuted and sentencing that each group gets.



You didn't even read the links..now did you? :doh:

Here's another one but, I'll bet you won't bother to read it either.

Sentencing Project (http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_sentencing_review.pdf)(click here)




Trying to get other people to look at a subject through a clear lens of facts, and not from an emotional perspective...............is always a "good try." :D


.
So now you change the argument from convictions to sentencing. Where will we go next?

But here's the funny thing. You take a thread that talks about why so many Americans (not White, Black, Hispanic, etc) are doing time or on probation, and the first thing you do is bring race into it. This is typical of many of the issues that liberals comment on. There has to be a race issue in there somewhere and you have done your best to bring it up. It is just another example of diverting a thread from its original intent. :thumbsup:

[AK Gandy]

So now you change the argument from convictions to sentencing. Where will we go next?
Where did I say that? :rolleyes:

Exactly.

Let's not forget that a certain minority group that makes up about 14% of our general population..............makes up over 40% of the prison population. :doh:

But hey, sentencing disparity doesn't really exist. :rolleyes:
.



But here's the funny thing. You take a thread that talks about why so many Americans (not White, Black, Hispanic, etc) are doing time or on probation, and the first thing you do is bring race into it. This is typical of many of the issues that liberals comment on. There has to be a race issue in there somewhere and you have done your best to bring it up. It is just another example of diverting a thread from its original intent.
I realize that you may feel uncomfortable defending what is right there in black and white but, to whine about a natural offshoot of the original subject.......is really stretching it.....don't ya think? :doh:


.

[GetAClue]

My original post said simply that minorities were convicted for crimes at a much higher rate than non-minorities. That was in response to your original post where you attempted to divert the subject from WHY so many Americans are in jail, to a discussion about the racial makeup of the incarcerated community.

Let's not forget that a certain minority group that makes up about 14% of our general population..............makes up over 40% of the prison population.

My question back to you is why are minorities committing so many crimes? When found guilty of a crime, should they not be incarcerated? Do you have any statistics that say minorities are NOT committing the crimes they are convicted of?

From all indications, it appears that you have your own agenda. If you are out to save the world, that’s your business. However, from what I have read it appears that the reason so many minorities are in jail is because they are committing more than their fair share of crimes.

[AK Gandy]

You still refuse to read or acknowledge. :doh:

If you did, a lot of your questions would be answered. :rolleyes:

Sure, there are probably more (as a percentage of demographics) minorities committing crimes.

There are a number of reasons for it.

However, when they do get caught (and more effort is put toward catching them than whites)......they also get harsher sentences.

And I'll bet you think it's just a 'coincidence.'
.

[Bill Cosby]

I don't either, but it is in front of them every day. Just look at how many celebrities are busted for various crimes and then have their hands slapped only to repeat the offense again with the same result.

We as a society have removed personal responsibility from the equation in many aspects of our lives.

Again, my children think they are simply dumb & stupid.......... Britney & the twins........ Lohan???

I would hope younger ppl would learn a lesson from those dumb spoiled ppl.......

Not that you get away w/ it............. But your stupidity will find the light of day & you aint gonna like it, so don't do it.........:thumbsup:

In our society, as is the case in every society, the rich, powerful, famous etc get handled by a different set of rules...

I can guarantee you that kids growing up in the South Bronx or the 9th ward have no idea about leniency & all that......

[Bill Cosby]

AK & GetAClue very interesting read & debate :thumbsup:

I think another factor that needs to be addressed is the issue of what is & is not a crime.........

I think often times the "crimes/sins" of the poor are punished, often severely while the "crimes/sins" of the affluent are legalized, decriminalized etc....

A man steals your gramma's purse & gets $20 he does time........... Another man takes her pension & he gets a bonus....... WTF??? :banghead:

A rich man snorts coke & gets probation, a poor man buys crack & goes to jail for years......

Just a thought.......

[Moby]

Legalize drugs like Portugal did and watch the crime rate go down.

5 Years After: Portugal's Drug Decriminalization Policy Shows Positive Results
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=portugal-drug-decriminalization

Wake up and take off the rose colored glasses. :disbelief:
Silly Fred. That only works in every other country that tries such things. It would be sinful, Nazi like, socialist, communism turning our children into drug addicts instead of having the same positive results of every other place on the planet.

[FredK]

Silly Fred. That only works in every other country that tries such things. It would be sinful, Nazi like, socialist, communism turning our children into drug addicts instead of having the same positive results of every other place on the planet.

I know it's a radial thought. Guess that makes me a free thinker or a lefty.:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Bill Cosby]

In this country we don't handle problems like them soft socialist in Europe, we go to war, kick some ass............

Nixon lost Viet Nam & the war on drugs but some just don't know it yet..:banghead:


http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/u/us/us_incarceration_timeline.gif

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005/Nixon-Cambodia-Cover-Up17nov05.gif