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Linkster
09-17-2007, 10:18 AM
Thats right - its today although I doubt anyone here remembers the meanings it had many years ago to us

A great article and look at the past - in hopes that maybe the future might be better - I bolded some phrases that really stood out to me - especially the teaching of civics in school - which used to be an extremely important part of youngsters lives - but unfortunately has been replaced with non-useful classes that do not prepare our young to be citizens:
From - http://feeds.huffingtonpost.com/~r/HP/Politics/~3/157425264/constitution-day-2007_b_64651.html

What is the most important date in American history? Most of us would swiftly answer the Fourth of July. But think about today, September 17th. On this date in 1787 the convention in Philadelphia completed work on one of the greatest acts of creative leadership of all time, "this Constitution of The United States." Their work rescued America from what Madison later described as "gloomy chaos" and set the world marching toward what we can now see as the Age of Democracy.

Yet there will be no parades today, no picnics or fireworks. Perhaps a library somewhere is sponsoring a talk. Constitution Day will pass largely unnoticed. It is not surprising. Americans have over the last 40 years drifted away from a connection to our Constitution, the document that invented the United States as we now understand it and helped America to become the longest enduring democracy in history (Athens lasted 170 years as a democracy).

We revere the framers. We gobble up books about them and love snippets of their wisdom. They have become our secular gods. Yet we have little sense of what it was they actually invented. We know that the Declaration of Independence proclaimed our liberty. But liberty alone, as it turned out, was not the answer to the question of how to create a successful nation. As the framers learned in the eleven years following 1776, liberty unleashed the ambitions, the self-interests of individuals, factions and states. Selfish behavior was so rampant that the army nearly starved in the field of battle. Farmers took up arms. States threatened border war with other states. The country, if it even was a country, was falling apart. This was the "gloomy chaos" Madison confronted when he entered Philadelphia.

He and his fellow delegates saved America by recognizing that the pursuit of self-interest, which lay behind all the chaos, was fundamental to human nature. Before 1787 self-interest was something that had to be transcended to preserve Democracy. But the Constitution turned "vice into a virtue," harnessing ambition and channeling it into a system of representative government that pit interest against interest to find the greater good. Power was separated and balanced. The system was driven by "conflict within consensus" as historian Michael Kammen summed it up. There had never been a government like it before. This was their great invention: a government that let people be free by recognizing what people were really like.

The power of their invention is inarguable. Out of that sweltering hall in Philadelphia, out of that crisis of the early American nation, emerged a blueprint for government that was designed to let the people govern themselves despite their imperfections. It did not count on people to be selfless or bigger than themselves. "If men were angels, no government would be necessary,' wrote Madison. This new idea for government presumed people would pursue their own interests. Indeed it counted on them to do just that.

And it created paths for others to disagree, and resist them, or argue for something different. Their invention was a government designed to channel these struggles. To impede change until enough people supported it. To force people to the middle To encourage compromise. To spread power around so, in Hamilton's succinct vision, the few could not oppress the many and the many could not oppress the few. A lot could get done if people worked together in this system. But, if they fought each other, it could all grind to a halt.

In other words what they sent out from Philadelphia 220 years ago today was not just a piece of parchment. They created a new set of ideas about government and democracy. They had no idea how effective those ideas would be

The American "experiment" has worked better and lasted longer than any alternative.

But we do not recall all this for a history lesson. Because today, despite all our success, many Americans are feeling deeply frustrated and disillusioned with the functioning of their country. "Our conviction about American greatness and purpose is not as strong today," William J Bennett writes on the very first page of his History of The Untied States.

We are searching for a renewal.

The Constitution itself is a good place to start this day. It is after all what makes us Americans. We are not a country defined, in the words of journalist Ray Suarez, "by blood, or clan, or land origins, or religious belief." Rather, we are held together by the strength of our shared beliefs in our Constitution and its principles -- such as a respect for process, a willingness to compromise, a tolerance for dissent. We call this our Constitutional Conscience
But we have been drifting away from these principles and our modern politics has become brittle, confrontational and uncompromising. Our common bond has been unraveling. Recent experience reminds us that we make mistakes as a country when we move away from how our system was built to work. When people say now they wish The Congress and the media had done more to question the march to war in Iraq they are saying, too, that they wish the leaders of congress and the press had done more to assert their authority, and fulfill their responsibilities, under The Constitution. Even many proponents of the war concede now that the checks and balances did not work well. We believe that is precisely because of a weakening of our sense of our Constitutional roles, our constitutional conscience. Voters do not reward elected officials for executing their constitutional responsibility so it is little wonder that most elected officials don't pay much heed to those responsibilities. "People revere the constitution yet know so little about," Senator Robert Byrd said, "and that goes for some of my fellow senators."

Ronald Regan, one of our most important 20th century presidents saw this problem coming as he left office. He warned of what he saw as a growing failure to appreciate our own history. Ultimately, he said, this would eradicate "the American memory" and threaten the American spirit. Some years later, Derek Bok the former president of Harvard worried that no one any longer bothers to prepare people to be citizens. Civics has nearly vanished from our curriculums, squeezed out in many cases by the understandable drive to teach science and math. We do that to assure our competitiveness in the world economy. But we should be just as concerned about our moral authority in the world. Moral authority comes from the strength of our principals. We are the inheritors of one of the greatest statements of democratic principals ever written. One piece of rehabilitating our moral authority in the world and our confidence in our selves is to reconnect with our own statement of best principals, "this Constitution of the United States." Franklin Roosevelt, our other great 20th Century president, said we should read The Constitution "again and again" like the bible. Or maybe we should all go to that Library talk.

moonman
09-17-2007, 11:16 AM
Another great way for Americans to celebrate Constitution Day is a visit to your local courthouse and witness first hand the swearing in of new citizens.

You'll be so amazed to see the pride in their eyes, love in their hearts for their chosen country and I swear you'll see a couple hundred people jump out of their skins with joy at achieving U.S. citizenship.

And if you can do that without tearing up, yer a tougher cat than I or you simply have no soul.

kres24GT
09-17-2007, 11:38 AM
The Constitution is long dead. The politcians have appointed judges who will interpret the Constitution to say whatever they want., It's original intent is long dead and has little relevance anymore.

moonman
09-17-2007, 12:27 PM
The Constitution is long dead. The politcians have appointed judges who will interpret the Constitution to say whatever they want., It's original intent is long dead and has little relevance anymore.

Whiner. If the Consitution were 'long dead' as you claim O.J. would never have been found not guilty. Suppression of evidence motions would no longer be heard daily in our courts. The, and this one will rot yer socks kres, the doctirne of fairness would not be the over-riding principle in issues involving equity.

What whiners overlook is that everything, people, instititions have rights. OUr courts are the place where these rights are determined in matters involving some controversy. Just because kres doesn't always get his way doesn't mean the Constitution is "long dead."

I agree that our rights have been eroded. I agree that it is far more difficult today to be heard in a court of law. The Constitution long dead? No way. I don't balme the courts just like I don't blame the jury in OJ. Blame Marsha Clark for failing to win an open and shut case.

Our Courts are like women. Unless you present your case, make your offering and/or approach them in just the way they want to hear it, the hand goes up, and neither the court or a woman will hear ya.

kres24GT
09-17-2007, 12:32 PM
Whiner. If the Consitution were 'long dead' as you claim O.J. would never have been found not guilty. Suppression of evidence motions would no longer be heard daily in our courts. The, and this one will rot yer socks kres, the doctirne of fairness would not be the over-riding principle in issues involving equity.

What whiners overlook is that everything, people, instititions have rights. OUr courts are the place where these rights are determined in matters involving some controversy. Just because kres doesn't always get his way doesn't mean the Constitution is "long dead."

I agree that our rights have been eroded. I agree that it is far more difficult today to be heard in a court of law. The Constitution long dead? No way. I don't balme the courts just like I don't blame the jury in OJ. Blame Marsha Clark for failing to win an open and shut case.

Our Courts are like women. Unless you present your case, make your offering and/or approach them in just the way they want to hear it, the hand goes up, and neither the court or a woman will hear ya.


Courts and judges make the rules now, the constitution is irrelevant and paid nothing more than lip service. One only has to look at the Supreme Court to see this. If the judges were actually taking the Constitution for its intent pretty much every ruling would be 9-0. A huge number of cases that go before SCOTUS are split 6-3, 5-4. The judges rule according to their own beliefs and who appointed them, not according to the Constitution.

Linkster
09-17-2007, 12:53 PM
kres - the framers of the constitution knew that there were differences between people and their "morals" - thats why they even bothered to put in the separation clauses for the branches of governments as well as the majority role in every case of voting - from elections to the supreme court.

This would be a sad planet to live on if everybody thought exactly the same way - and the framers knew that quite well - they had been watching mini-civil wars among states for the last 11 years since the declaration of independence was signed - I know schools dont teach this a lot - but this country was almost in a complete civil war in the 1780s

In order to have people with different opinions be able to compromise and work together (something missing it seems from this country these days) the only way to work a democracy as they envisioned it was to have everyone subscribe to the "the outcome is greater than the annoyances" theories they had forming this new type of government - which included the majority rules slant

Hopefully this country never gets to the point where all supreme court justices agree on the interpretation of the constitution, or that the people of this country never get to the point of just blindly following whatever their elected leaders put out - if so - this form of government has failed!

This is why it is so important for all citizens to not only know citizenship and their resposibilities in a democracy, but to question everything no matter how trivial - if we lose that (which it seems quite a few on the right and left have suggested we should do) then we have lost our nation

kres24GT
09-17-2007, 01:34 PM
kres - the framers of the constitution knew that there were differences between people and their "morals" - thats why they even bothered to put in the separation clauses for the branches of governments as well as the majority role in every case of voting - from elections to the supreme court.

This would be a sad planet to live on if everybody thought exactly the same way - and the framers knew that quite well - they had been watching mini-civil wars among states for the last 11 years since the declaration of independence was signed - I know schools dont teach this a lot - but this country was almost in a complete civil war in the 1780s

In order to have people with different opinions be able to compromise and work together (something missing it seems from this country these days) the only way to work a democracy as they envisioned it was to have everyone subscribe to the "the outcome is greater than the annoyances" theories they had forming this new type of government - which included the majority rules slant

Hopefully this country never gets to the point where all supreme court justices agree on the interpretation of the constitution, or that the people of this country never get to the point of just blindly following whatever their elected leaders put out - if so - this form of government has failed!

This is why it is so important for all citizens to not only know citizenship and their resposibilities in a democracy, but to question everything no matter how trivial - if we lose that (which it seems quite a few on the right and left have suggested we should do) then we have lost our nation


1. The founders did not want a democracy. Like all people with an IQ over 12 they knew the dangers of democracy.

2. The rest of your post proves my point.

Linkster
09-17-2007, 01:54 PM
I didnt say the founders - I said the "framers" of the constitution - ya know - the guys that wrote it

kres24GT
09-17-2007, 02:22 PM
I didnt say the founders - I said the "framers" of the constitution - ya know - the guys that wrote it

The group of white land owners who founded the country (including those who framed/wrote the Constitution) did not want a democracy, and most certainly never envisioned the bloated federal government we have today.

Linkster
09-17-2007, 02:59 PM
I would totally disagree with you on this - probably to no avail - in some ways you are correct - the framers were not designing a total democracy(which was why I said - as they envisioned it - giving the total power to the people.
And there was a good reason for it in their minds - they had just watched the problems in England with democracy and where the power had been laid in the hands of the people completely and led to a complete breakdown of the democracy in England in the 1600s
To answer that they transferred some of the "peoples" power to the state governments and some to congress - however they built in the power to remove people that had usurped the peoples power just to prevent the crisis they had fought a revolution for - not really surprising to do that.

As far as the bloated federal government - I totally agree and it is completely against what the constitution is supposed to stand for - the states and the people should have the powers and provide for the people - not the US Govt - but then I have to remind myself that it is the people that allowed the US Govt to take away their power - and still do to this day.

kres24GT
09-17-2007, 03:24 PM
but then I have to remind myself that it is the people that allowed the US Govt to take away their power - and still do to this day.


They are stupid to do so. It's one of the pluses (from the politcians perspective) of a joke public school system.

Also why the founders/framers/whatever did not want a democracy. Democracy gives stupid people too much power, and that is not what they wanted.

disrupter
09-17-2007, 05:25 PM
The NeoCon vampires will have to remain in their coffins today,
lest they be fried alive by the glaring light of this day of constitutionality.

'Democracy is the worst form of government,
except for all the rest.' attributed to Winston Churchill.

The advantage of democracy or some form of democratic republic, is that there is political feedback.

Just as your nervous system tells you when you are touching something, or it is too hot or too cold, some form of democracy gives political leaders repercussive feedback.
It forces some level of intelligence into the system, however marginal.

Currently though the forces of corporate power have installed themselves as an intermediate interface between politicians & the public & through subtle but undeniable manipulations they are disconnecting this feedback & distorting it to their agenda.

I think all direct campaign contributions must come only from voters of a candidate's district/region. Others can advertise on their own dime but it is completely independent of the candidate's campaign. 90% of politician's time is spent pandering to fat cat corporations. When there is no direct link it goes along way to clean up the bribery system we are currently operating under.