Incendiary Rhetoric

[bairdi]

This article just about sums it all up.

Glenn Beck's Incendiary Rhetoric Is Dangerously Close to Having a Body Count
By Eric Boehlert, Media Matters for America
Posted on July 27, 2010, Printed on July 28, 2010
http://www.alternet.org/story/147647/

On his Monday radio show, Glenn Beck highlighted claims that before he started targeting a little-known, left-leaning organization called the Tides Foundation on his Fox News TV show, "nobody knew" what the non-profit was.

Indeed, for more than a year Beck has been portraying the progressive organization as a central player in a larger, nefarious cabal of Marxist/socialist/Nazi Obama-loving outlets determined to destroy democracy in America. Beck has routinely smeared the low-profile entity for being staffed by "thugs" and "bullies" and involved in "the nasty of the nastiest," like indoctrinating schoolchildren and creating a "mass organization to seize power."

As Media Matters reported, the conspiratorial host had mentioned (read: attacked) the little-known progressive organization nearly 30 times on his Fox program alone since it premiered in 2009, including several mentions in the last month. (Beck's the only TV talker who regularly references the foundation, according to our Nexis searches.)

So yes, Beck has done all he can to scare the hell out of people about the Tides Foundation and "turn the light of day" onto an organization that actually facilitates non-profit giving.

And guess what? Everybody in America would have found out about the Tides Foundation last week if Byron Williams had had his way. He's the right-wing, government-hating, gun-toting nut who strapped on his body armor, stocked a pickup truck with guns and ammo, and set off up the California coast to San Francisco in order to start killing employees at the previously obscure Tides Foundation in hopes of sparking a political revolution.

Thankfully, the planned domestic terrorist attack never came to pass because California Highway Patrol officers pulled Williams over for drunk driving on his way to his killing spree. Williams quickly opened fire, wounding two officers during a lengthy shootout. Luckily, Williams wasn't able to act out the ultimate goal of his dark anger -- fueled by the TV news he watched -- about how "Congress was railroading through all these left-wing agenda items," as his mother put it. Williams wasn't able to open fire inside the offices of the Tides Foundation, an organization "nobody knew" about until Glenn Beck started targeting it.

And thankfully, Williams wasn't able to take his place alongside a growing list of domestic, anti-government terrorists, such as the recent Pentagon shooter, the Holocaust Museum gunman, the kamikaze pilot who flew his plane into an IRS building in Austin, Texas, and the Pittsburgh cop-killer who set up an ambush because he was convinced Obama was going to take away his guns.

All the vigilante attacks appear to have been fueled by an almost pathological hatred for the U.S. government -- the same open hatred that right-wing bloggers, AM talk radio hosts, and Fox News' lineup of anti-government prophets have been frantically fueling for the last year, pushing doomsday warnings of America's democratic demise under President Obama.

And the sad the sad truth is we're going to see more like Byron Williams. We're going to see more attempts at vigilante violence during the Age of Obama simply because the right-wing media, lead by Beck, continue to gleefully (albeit irresponsibly) stoke dangerous fires with the kind of relentlessly incendiary rhetoric that has no match in terms of modern day, mainstream use in American politics or media.

Just listen to Glenn Beck:

* Progressives "are sucking the blood out of the republic" and are "gonna start getting more and more violent."

* "To the day I die, I am going to be a progressive hunter."

* "[Y]ou will have to shoot me in the forehead before you take away my gun" and "before I acquiesce and be silent."

* "This game is for keeps"; "[Y]ou can shoot me in the head ... but there will be 10 others that line up."

* "There is a coup going on. There is a stealing of America"; "God help us in an emergency."'

And don't forget about the unhinged response when health care reform was passed in March: "Get down on your knees and pray. Pray. It's September 11th all over again, except that we didn't have the collapsing buildings." After financial reform passed last week, Beck told his audience, "Your republic is over."

Meanwhile, Andrew Breitbart's website recently tagged Obama as the "suicide-bomber-in-chief," while the conservative Washington Times just last week published an op-ed -- by a former congressman, no less -- asserting the president poses more of a threat to America than al Qaeda.

Note that the radical right's media rhetoric is no longer even political in a partisan sense. Instead, it's purely revolutionary. It isn't, "We think taxes should be lower" or "Obama should be more hawkish overseas." It's, "There's an insidious and deadly plot afoot by Democrats and progressives to strip Americans of their freedom and this country of its greatness." Obama is now the incarnation of evil (the Antichrist?), and his driving hatred for America, as well as for democracy, runs so deep that he ran for president in order to destroy the United States from inside the Oval Office.

Rush Limbaugh: "Our country is being overthrown from within."

And this summer, the latest toxic twist to that line of attack is that Obama is destroying America on purpose in order to exact revenge from white America for the historic sin of slavery. (Think: Black Manchurian Candidate.) The GOP Noise Machine is now mixing a vile cocktail by stirring revolutionary rhetoric with hateful race-baiting.

It's impossible to argue that today's avalanche of insurrectionist rhetoric doesn't have a real world effect. Or that those on the fringes don't find comfort in seeing and hearing their worst fears legitimized on AM radio and Fox News.

The consequences of the doomsday programming seem entirely predictable. As Jeffrey Jones, a professor of media and politics at Old Dominion University, recently explained to the New York Times in regard to Beck's rhetoric, "People hear their values are under attack and they get worried. It becomes an opportunity for them to stand up and do something."

Indeed, the relentless message that right-wing audiences hear is unequivocal and inescapable: Do something! Take action!

And last week, Byron Williams, likely inspired by Glenn Beck's Tides obsession, grabbed his guns and set out to do just that.

[doctordog]

this article might be interesting if:

1. Media Matters wasn't the source

2. A left wingnut didn't fly a plane into the IRS building in Texas.

[ROOK]

One wonders what those that spend any significant time attempting to smear Glenn Beck hope to achieve since it would appear that the louder his detractors whine about him the more popular he gets.

"There is no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary." -- Brendan Behan

Restoring Honor Rally in Washington D.C. 8/28/10 (http://www.glennbeck.com/828/)
be there or be square.

[MintJulep]

"Ahhhh. How sweeet it is!"

http://www.cinemaretro.com/uploads/jackiegleasoncolor.jpg

:lmao2:

[ROOK]

"Ahhhh. How sweeet it is!"


LOL, Good ole Jackie Gleason, now there was a class act. :)

[dsolo802]

This article just about sums it all up.

Glenn Beck's Incendiary Rhetoric Is Dangerously Close to Having a Body Count
By Eric Boehlert, Media Matters for America
Posted on July 27, 2010, Printed on July 28, 2010
http://www.alternet.org/story/147647/

On his Monday radio show, Glenn Beck highlighted claims that before he started targeting a little-known, left-leaning organization called the Tides Foundation on his Fox News TV show, "nobody knew" what the non-profit was.

Indeed, for more than a year Beck has been portraying the progressive organization as a central player in a larger, nefarious cabal of Marxist/socialist/Nazi Obama-loving outlets determined to destroy democracy in America. Beck has routinely smeared the low-profile entity for being staffed by "thugs" and "bullies" and involved in "the nasty of the nastiest," like indoctrinating schoolchildren and creating a "mass organization to seize power."

As Media Matters reported, the conspiratorial host had mentioned (read: attacked) the little-known progressive organization nearly 30 times on his Fox program alone since it premiered in 2009, including several mentions in the last month. (Beck's the only TV talker who regularly references the foundation, according to our Nexis searches.)

So yes, Beck has done all he can to scare the hell out of people about the Tides Foundation and "turn the light of day" onto an organization that actually facilitates non-profit giving.

And guess what? Everybody in America would have found out about the Tides Foundation last week if Byron Williams had had his way. He's the right-wing, government-hating, gun-toting nut who strapped on his body armor, stocked a pickup truck with guns and ammo, and set off up the California coast to San Francisco in order to start killing employees at the previously obscure Tides Foundation in hopes of sparking a political revolution.

Thankfully, the planned domestic terrorist attack never came to pass because California Highway Patrol officers pulled Williams over for drunk driving on his way to his killing spree. Williams quickly opened fire, wounding two officers during a lengthy shootout. Luckily, Williams wasn't able to act out the ultimate goal of his dark anger -- fueled by the TV news he watched -- about how "Congress was railroading through all these left-wing agenda items," as his mother put it. Williams wasn't able to open fire inside the offices of the Tides Foundation, an organization "nobody knew" about until Glenn Beck started targeting it.

And thankfully, Williams wasn't able to take his place alongside a growing list of domestic, anti-government terrorists, such as the recent Pentagon shooter, the Holocaust Museum gunman, the kamikaze pilot who flew his plane into an IRS building in Austin, Texas, and the Pittsburgh cop-killer who set up an ambush because he was convinced Obama was going to take away his guns.

All the vigilante attacks appear to have been fueled by an almost pathological hatred for the U.S. government -- the same open hatred that right-wing bloggers, AM talk radio hosts, and Fox News' lineup of anti-government prophets have been frantically fueling for the last year, pushing doomsday warnings of America's democratic demise under President Obama.

And the sad the sad truth is we're going to see more like Byron Williams. We're going to see more attempts at vigilante violence during the Age of Obama simply because the right-wing media, lead by Beck, continue to gleefully (albeit irresponsibly) stoke dangerous fires with the kind of relentlessly incendiary rhetoric that has no match in terms of modern day, mainstream use in American politics or media.

Just listen to Glenn Beck:

* Progressives "are sucking the blood out of the republic" and are "gonna start getting more and more violent."

* "To the day I die, I am going to be a progressive hunter."

* "[Y]ou will have to shoot me in the forehead before you take away my gun" and "before I acquiesce and be silent."

* "This game is for keeps"; "[Y]ou can shoot me in the head ... but there will be 10 others that line up."

* "There is a coup going on. There is a stealing of America"; "God help us in an emergency."'

And don't forget about the unhinged response when health care reform was passed in March: "Get down on your knees and pray. Pray. It's September 11th all over again, except that we didn't have the collapsing buildings." After financial reform passed last week, Beck told his audience, "Your republic is over."

Meanwhile, Andrew Breitbart's website recently tagged Obama as the "suicide-bomber-in-chief," while the conservative Washington Times just last week published an op-ed -- by a former congressman, no less -- asserting the president poses more of a threat to America than al Qaeda.

Note that the radical right's media rhetoric is no longer even political in a partisan sense. Instead, it's purely revolutionary. It isn't, "We think taxes should be lower" or "Obama should be more hawkish overseas." It's, "There's an insidious and deadly plot afoot by Democrats and progressives to strip Americans of their freedom and this country of its greatness." Obama is now the incarnation of evil (the Antichrist?), and his driving hatred for America, as well as for democracy, runs so deep that he ran for president in order to destroy the United States from inside the Oval Office.

Rush Limbaugh: "Our country is being overthrown from within."

And this summer, the latest toxic twist to that line of attack is that Obama is destroying America on purpose in order to exact revenge from white America for the historic sin of slavery. (Think: Black Manchurian Candidate.) The GOP Noise Machine is now mixing a vile cocktail by stirring revolutionary rhetoric with hateful race-baiting.

It's impossible to argue that today's avalanche of insurrectionist rhetoric doesn't have a real world effect. Or that those on the fringes don't find comfort in seeing and hearing their worst fears legitimized on AM radio and Fox News.

The consequences of the doomsday programming seem entirely predictable. As Jeffrey Jones, a professor of media and politics at Old Dominion University, recently explained to the New York Times in regard to Beck's rhetoric, "People hear their values are under attack and they get worried. It becomes an opportunity for them to stand up and do something."

Indeed, the relentless message that right-wing audiences hear is unequivocal and inescapable: Do something! Take action!

And last week, Byron Williams, likely inspired by Glenn Beck's Tides obsession, grabbed his guns and set out to do just that.It goes beyond borderline sedition. In my opinion, it goes across the border - and there is no papers these assholes can carry to justify it.

[ROOK]

It goes beyond borderline sedition. In my opinion, it goes across the border - and there is no papers these assholes can carry to justify it.
Absolutely and I'm quite sure Woodrow Wilson would have agreed with your assessment.

Perhaps some internment camps are in order. :p

[dsolo802]

Perhaps some internment camps are in order. :pInternment camps fit with the Arizona model. Being of Japanese descent is quite like driving while Mexican. In both cases, there is no act that triggers official action, just the happenstance of one's birth and heritage.

[ROOK]

Internment camps fit with the Arizona model. Being of Japanese descent is quite like driving while Mexican. In both cases, there is no act that triggers official action, just the happenstance of one's birth and heritage.

Ok, if you say so... :dunno:

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Bill Cosby]

Internment camps fit with the Arizona model. Being of Japanese descent is quite like driving while Mexican. In both cases, there is no act that triggers official action, just the happenstance of one's birth and heritage.

Funny detail many in Arizona never bothered to consider............

[dsolo802]

Ok, if you say so... :dunno:Whether I say it is so or not, it is.

A lies travels half way round the world before the truth gets its pants on.

[nondual]

Funny detail many in Arizona never bothered to consider............
And that's the reason the new Arizona law is fundamentally racist. Simple as that.

[olddude]

Whether I say it is so or not, it is.

A lies travels half way round the world before the truth gets its pants on.

Truth stands on it's own two feet and is why the left is so afraid of Beck, Rush and a few others. When you shine the light on liberals they run like cock roaches when some one turns a light on. You should listen to both of these guys for a week or two, the truth will set you free.

[bairdi]

Truth stands on it's own two feet and is why the left is so afraid of Beck, Rush and a few others. When you shine the light on liberals they run like cock roaches when some one turns a light on. You should listen to both of these guys for a week or two, the truth will set you free.
There is a huge difference between truth and propaganda. Too bad you are unable to distinguish between the two.

[ROOK]

There is a huge difference between truth and propaganda. Too bad you are unable to distinguish between the two.

Your response reminds me of the idiom in which aspersions are cast by one piece of cookware at another piece of cookware.

[nondual]

Truth stands on it's own two feet and is why the left is so afraid of Beck, Rush and a few others. When you shine the light on liberals they run like cock roaches when some one turns a light on. You should listen to both of these guys for a week or two, the truth will set you free.
What lies are you talking about? Because I can't think of any. OTH, I have dozens of video clips showing right wingers deliberately and blatantly lying to the public.

[bairdi]

Your response reminds me of the idiom in which aspersions are cast by one piece of cookware at another piece of cookware.
And your response reminds me of something I once read.



Abiding in the midst of ignorance,
thinking themselves wise and learned,
fools go aimlessly hither and thither
like blind led by the blind.

— Katha Upanishad

[ROOK]

What lies are you talking about? Because I can't think of any. OTH, I have dozens of video clips showing right wingers deliberately and blatantly lying to the public.

It's a given that because "you can't think of any" means that none exist.

Alternatively it may be the case that they do exist but you've failed to notice them because you're a completely nonobjective observer with a set of assumptions that you constantly need to justify to yourself.

[ROOK]

And your response reminds me of something I once read.



Abiding in the midst of ignorance,
thinking themselves wise and learned,
fools go aimlessly hither and thither
like blind led by the blind.

— Katha Upanishad

I'm happy to have been a catalyst to have set at least some of those idle neurons into action :), unfortunately it appears that most of them chose to march in the wrong direction.

[olddude]

I'm happy to have been a catalyst to have set at least some of those idle neurons into action :), unfortunately it appears that most of them chose to march in the wrong direction.

Hehehehe...........Priceless!:lmao2:

[ROOK]

Hehehehe...........Priceless!:lmao2:

LOL, and yet I chose to give it away for free, does that make me an anti-capitalist? :eek:


:D

[olddude]

What lies are you talking about? Because I can't think of any. OTH, I have dozens of video clips showing right wingers deliberately and blatantly lying to the public.

Lies....LIES! did I say something about lies? We are talking about truth here. Are you trying to rewrite my post again? shame on you.

[olddude]

LOL, and yet I chose to give it away for free, does that make me an anti-capitalist? :eek:


:D

No sir! I think that proves the age old theory the left has about conservatives not being compassionate. You can only do so much you know, you can lead them to water but you can't force them to drink.:lmao2:

[MintJulep]

LOL, and yet I chose to give it away for free, does that make me an anti-capitalist? :eek:


:DIt is quite charitable of you to do all this schooling for free! :D

[ROOK]

No sir! I think that proves the age old theory the left has about conservatives not being compassionate. You can only do so much you know, you can lead them to water but you can't force them to drink.:lmao2:

Well put olddude, Personally I would point to the misguided notion on the left that dictates that forcing someone else to finance their own idea of what is acceptably "compassionate" is a rational form of altruism, which IMO demonstrates just how ridiculous the left wing theories regarding compassion are to begin with.

[nondual]

It's a given that because "you can't think of any" means that none exist.

Alternatively it may be the case that they do exist but you've failed to notice them because you're a completely nonobjective observer with a set of assumptions that you constantly need to justify to yourself.
All we need to do is Google for it and compare. Takes just a few minutes...

[ROOK]

It is quite charitable of you to do all this schooling for free! :D

Greetings MintJulep :)

Whoa ! perhaps I need to join a California Teachers Union, the compensation is rumored to be stellar.

Anyone have the number to SEIU ?

[ROOK]

All we need to do is Google for it and compare. Takes just a few minutes...

I can't speak for anybody else here but you certainly have my permission to proceed........

[bairdi]

I'm happy to have been a catalyst to have set at least some of those idle neurons into action :), unfortunately it appears that most of them chose to march in the wrong direction.
We must all march to our own drummer.:) Though it seems to you that most of my neurons are marching in the wrong direction, appearances can be quite deceiving especially to one so blinded by a misguided ideology.

[ROOK]

We must all march to our own drummer.:)

True, personally I prefer John Bonham.


Though it seems to you that most of my neurons are marching in the wrong direction, appearances can be quite deceiving especially to one so blinded by a misguided ideology.

Perhaps you should consider that during whatever time you set aside for introspection.

[nondual]

Perhaps you should consider that during whatever time you set aside for introspection.
Talking about introspection, I'd like to ask a question or two.

As a self proclaimed Capitalist pig, how does allowing corporations to write our laws advances society? How do you justify it?

[ROOK]

Talking about introspection, I'd like to ask a question or two.

As a self proclaimed Capitalist pig, how does allowing corporations to write our laws advances society? How do you justify it?

As a capitalist I of course oppose all corporate integration with government since destroys competition and creates an inherently anti-free market environment.

You need stop taking your lessons on economics from Michael Moore.

[nondual]

As a capitalist I of course oppose all corporate integration with government since destroys competition and creates an inherently anti-free market environment.

You need stop taking your lessons on economics from Michael Moore.
You mean you agree with me that lobbyists should be kicked out of Congress?

Hmmm... isn't that what Michael Moore also wants?

[ROOK]

You mean you agree with me that lobbyists should be kicked out of Congress?
No, it means that I don't appreciate you constantly attempting to ascribe view points to me that I have neither expressed or implied, as shocking as it may be to you I'm quite capable of voicing my own opinions and don't require your assistance.


Hmmm... isn't that what Michael Moore also wants?
Not according to him, Moore has never demonstrated that he understands what capitalism is let alone any credible ideas with respect to how it should function, I've toyed with idea of sending him a copy of The Wealth of Nations but I find the prospect that he'd actually read it rather dubious thus it would amount to sending a wagyu steak to a vegetarian.

"I think capitalism in general is responsible for a lot of the misery in America and around the world - but maybe it’s on steroids in America," -- Michael Moore

[bairdi]

As a capitalist I of course oppose all corporate integration with government since destroys competition and creates an inherently anti-free market environment.

You need stop taking your lessons on economics from Michael Moore.
Was there ever a time in the history of this country that we had a situation where there was no corporate integration with government?
I believe the answer would definitely be yes.

Did it work successfully to the good of the society as a whole?
I believe the answer to that question would be a definite no.

This is the problem I have with those of you with libertarian views. There was a time when everything you espoused existed and for the most part it did not work. The society we have today is not something that was just put into place for no reason, but evolved over the course of 200+ years in order to address problems that existed. We are nowhere close to being a perfect society but history has shown a return to failed economic models will not work.

[nondual]

No, it means that I don't appreciate you constantly attempting to ascribe view points to me that I have neither expressed or implied, as shocking as it may be to you I'm quite capable of voicing my own opinions and don't require your assistance.
And..? How do you prevent corporate integration with government without kicking the lobbyists out? Isn't their money Congress' major source of corruption? I know that cutting lobbyists out of the process isn't going to completely eliminate corruption, but at least it could significantly reduce their influence in policy making.


Not according to him, Moore has never demonstrated that he understands what capitalism is let alone any credible ideas with respect to how it should function, I've toyed with idea of sending him a copy of The Wealth of Nations but I find the prospect that he'd actually read it rather dubious thus it would amount to sending a wagyu steak to a vegetarian.

"I think capitalism in general is responsible for a lot of the misery in America and around the world - but maybe it’s on steroids in America," -- Michael Moore
That's one of his problems sometimes, he tends to generalize. He should have said -- I think GOTCHA, or unregulated, capitalism in general is responsible for...

[nondual]

Was there ever a time in the history of this country that we had a situation where there was no corporate integration with government?
I believe the answer would definitely be yes.
Wouldn't this depend on who is on top of whom?

[ROOK]

Was there ever a time in the history of this country that we had a situation where there was no corporate integration with government?
I believe the answer would definitely be yes.

What period of our history would that be?


Did it work successfully to the good of the society as a whole?
I believe the answer to that question would be a definite no.

Since it's never been the case your premise is invalid.


This is the problem I have with those of you with libertarian views. There was a time when everything you espoused existed and for the most part it did not work.

The standard of living that you and hundreds of millions of others have and continue to enjoy says otherwise, if you want a peek at the alternative you can take a look at Soviet Union, Cuba, Nazi Germany or any other example of centrally planned economics and unlimited government that you'd care to pick from the history books.

Beyond that there is no problem with libertarian views accept to those that cannot deal with their own and their fellow mans individual liberty and responsibility for their own lives and choices. If you want to check yourself into a government run prison to protect you from the harsh conditions of reality that's your choice just don't try to convince the rest of us that's a good idea to go with you.


but history has shown a return to failed economic models will not work.
Now that is FUNNY coming from someone that apparently wants to return to "failed economic models" (centrally planned economics) by abandoning the one that has created the greatest expansion of prosperity in the history of man (capitalism).

In case you haven't noticed centrally planned economies always fail in the long run, always.

[serum114]

One wonders what those that spend any significant time attempting to smear Glenn Beck hope to achieve since it would appear that the louder his detractors whine about him the more popular he gets.

"There is no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary." -- Brendan Behan

Restoring Honor Rally in Washington D.C. 8/28/10 (http://www.glennbeck.com/828/)
be there or be square.

WOW! A Brendan Behan quote taken out of context. You really don't seem like a Behan kind of person.

[ROOK]

WOW! A Brendan Behan quote taken out of context.

...and yet it still managed to serve my purposes without slandering the person being quoted, a feat most progressives seem to be unable to duplicate.


You really don't seem like a Behan kind of person.

And what would a "Behan kind of person" be like in your estimation?

[serum114]

...and yet it still managed to serve my purposes without slandering the person being quoted, a feat most progressives seem to be unable to duplicate.

I'm sure you have an example of that.

[QUOTE]And what would a "Behan kind of person" be like in your estimation?

Not Glenn Beck.

[ROOK]

I'm sure you have an example of that.

An example of not repeating a feat? Surely you jest.



Not Glenn Beck.

A very insightful answer, It's unfortunate that it isn't possible to get the time back I wasted reading it.

F- for effort.

[dsolo802]

Truth stands on it's own two feet and is why the left is so afraid of Beck, Rush and a few others. When you shine the light on liberals they run like cock roaches when some one turns a light on. You should listen to both of these guys for a week or two, the truth will set you free.Unfortunately for me, Old Dude, I have listened. They are purveyors of poison. They are short on facts, and ultra liberal with mean spirited opinions. They pray on our fears and prejudices, and divide us to our detriment and everlasting shame.

Conservative thought and Progressive thought are not either or propositions. There is a time for every purpose under heaven.

[ROOK]

Conservative thought and Progressive thought are not either or propositions.
Sorry to say but they are mutually exclusive propositions, the progressive road to serfdom can be traveled at variable speeds but it always leads to the same destination.

Unfortunately people fail to realize this until after surrendering their liberty a bit at a time in service of "practical ends" they're finally asked to give up something that is too dear to part with at which point it's generally too late to reverse course. You want details, just a German that lived through the collapse of the Wiemar Republic and the Nazi regime how it goes.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty. " -- Benjamin Franklin

[dsolo802]

Sorry to say but they are mutually exclusive propositions, the progressive road to serfdom can be traveled at variable speeds but it always leads to the same destination.

Unfortunately people fail to realize this until after surrendering their liberty a bit at a time in service of "practical ends" they're finally asked to give up something that is too dear to part with at which point it's generally too late to reverse course. You want details, just a German that lived through the collapse of the Wiemar Republic and the Nazi regime how it goes.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty. " -- Benjamin FranklinNah. That's just a partisan view. We have too much of that already.

Our best corporations operate on the principle that you must expand and consolidate, alternating in a cycle, to remain healthy and competitive. IF your business is always and only consolidating and protecting what you've got, it will stagnate and be passed by by other company's that are willing to risk to increase greater wealth.

If your business is always expanding and never consolidating, it is built on a house of cards and will collapse.

Conserving and progressing are two wings without which no bird can fly.

[ROOK]

Nah. That's just a partisan view. We have too much of that already.

It has nothing in the least bit to do with political parties, personally I'd rather political parties didn't even exist.


Our best corporations operate on the principle that you must expand and consolidate, alternating in a cycle, to remain healthy and competitive. IF your business is always and only consolidating and protecting what you've got, it will stagnate and be passed by by other company's that are willing to risk to increase greater wealth.

If your business is always expanding and never consolidating, it is built on a house of cards and will collapse.

Interesting, however I fail to see the relevance to the topic at hand.


Conserving and progressing are two wings without which no bird can fly.
It's clear you don't understand what progressivism is from a philosophical standpoint since if you did you'd know that it has nothing to do with "progress" unless of course you consider the limitless expansion of central government authority "progress" that is, you've apparently got some homework to do, maybe you should start with the Federalist Papers, the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, then contrast the principles and ideals you find there with the history of American Progressivism including the actions and ideals espoused by it's adherents.

[nondual]

It has nothing in the least bit to do with political parties, personally I'd rather political parties didn't even exist.


Interesting, however I fail to see the relevance to the topic at hand.


It's clear you don't understand what progressivism is from a philosophical standpoint since if you did you'd know that it has nothing to do with "progress" unless of course you consider the limitless expansion of central government authority "progress" that is, you've apparently got some homework to do, maybe you should start with the Federalist Papers, the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, then contrast the principles and ideals you find there with the history of American Progressivism including the actions and ideals espoused by it's adherents.
Just answer this ROOK: do you subscribe to Beck's portrayal of progressivism? A simple yes or no will suffice.

[olddude]

I posted this over on another thread, I thought it was this one but maybe not. It seems to follow the same theme as this one is going so I'll re-post it here. Those on the left hate to see and hear guys like Rush and Beck get on the radio & TV and expose the left for what it is. It drives them bonkers that they can't shut them up before enough people see just what has happened to them.


"I wonder how long it's going to be before these silly democrits realize that they have been fucked like a slut on 2 street on Sat nite and them sonsabitchs didn't even use no rubber. You know each and everyone of them by now are wondering a little about maybe weather they might have some kind of hebe jebe, zulu jungle disease that one day is going to rot their brains completely out. Some of them may already know they have been fucked but just can't seem to find it in their demoCrit roots to pick up and move on.

The demoCrit party is so full of racist and they continually keep trying to pull the old trick of blame them first. It's easy for them because they have the media to back them up. They do anything they can to get the heat off their ass by pulling the old....."HEY LOOK!, HE'S BOINKING THE GOAT" routine. If they were not so sad it would be funny.

Byrd, david duke, george wallas, all members of the KKK and members of the demoCRIT party.

" In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever".....George Wallace

"White people don't need a law against rape, but if you fill this room up with your normal black bucks, you would, because niggers are basically primitive animals.

"It's really the Jew Marxists who see the nigger as their instrument, as their bullets, by which to destroy our society." .....David duke

"I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side ... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."....Robert C Byrd

Then we come to the POS that is posing as president of these United States. He's on the opposite side of the race wagon and 180 degrees off from the normal demoCRIT. You know this half white/half black dude that has rode his horse on to the scene to right all the wrongs of the past and put whitey in his place has to have these old demoCrit racist turning over in their graves and sharpening their spears with contempt. BUT!! at least he's a demoCRIT! We can overlook some of his transgressions for the good of the party and cause.

Even slick willie knows what this clown is, as evidenced by his remarks to the king liberal himself, (kennedy) and proves he can still get a foot hung in his mouth rather than in some chubby intern's jaw. Bill Clinton helped sink his wife's chances for an endorsement from Ted Kennedy by belittling Barack Obama as nothing but a race-based candidate.

"A few years ago, this guy would have been getting us coffee," the former president told the liberal lion from Massachusetts,

All of you so called demoCrit, progressive, liberals what ever you want to call yourselves should sit back and take a good hard look at yourselves because the crap you are selling is getting a little stinky. The stuff you are selling is also being exposed more and more everyday for what it is and the reason for your hate for the only truth there is left in this country."

Thank God for people like them that will stand up and do what has to be done before this country completely goes down the tubes.

[dsolo802]

It has nothing in the least bit to do with political parties, personally I'd rather political parties didn't even exist.It has to do with fundamentalist either / or philosophies. Whether you think the particular philosophy you are espousing actually represents Conservativism or the GOP as it was some decades back is not relevant to the point I'm making.

Interesting, however I fail to see the relevance to the topic at hand. Neither the Progressive impulse nor the Conservative one is tethered to any particular mode of acting upon it. Conservatives actually do believe in wise investments - in both private and public sectors.

Progressive do believe in preserving and protecting our free enterprise system.

Instead of arguing the merits of solutions, the fundamentalists of both parties try to convert the debate which almost always comes down to where the line should be drawn, to simple-minded school girl name calling.

There are patriots all around - except for the fundamentalists of any philosophy who ALWAYS throw the People under the bus.

I have a very keen understanding of Progressivism. With all due respect, your version of the word - the one trumpeted by the entertainers of your philosophy - bears no resemblance to history or our current reality.

Name calling and revisionism is no way to go through life.

[ROOK]

Just answer this ROOK: do you subscribe to Beck's portrayal of progressivism? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Pick whichever one suits your purposes and go with that one since your demand that I limit my response to a simplistic one indicates that you're not really interested in the truth of the matter.

[nondual]

Pick whichever one suits your purposes and go with that one since your demand that I limit my response to a simplistic one indicates that you're not really interested in the truth of the matter.
I believe that you know that Beck is just an agitator and provocateur who likes to manipulate fools with hot button issues regardless of the truth, and that, because of that single fact, you like him. He serves your purposes, which is all that appears to matter to someone like you. Now, my question is, do those purposes serve Humanity as a whole, or just a few? What is it that really matters to you? Is it an all inclusive and transcendent purpose, or is it something limited by the world around you?

What I like to know is, are you a prisoner of Maya, or does your purpose see beyond it?

[Bill Cosby]

Instead of arguing the merits of solutions, the fundamentalists of both parties try to convert the debate which almost always comes down to where the line should be drawn, to simple-minded school girl name calling.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Far, far to often that is exactly the case....... They, both sides, strive to limit & control the debate [keep it inside the box] & possible solutions rather than working to actually solve them.......... In fact they both realize that quite often, not resolving certain issues is in their favor...... :banghead:

[ROOK]

It has to do with fundamentalist either / or philosophies. Whether you think the particular philosophy you are espousing actually represents Conservativism or the GOP as it was some decades back is not relevant to the point I'm making.

Again you miss the point , it isn't about "fundamentalist" or "conservatism" or the "GOP" , it's about principles, you are either a person that is willing to compromise them for expediency or convenience or you're not. For example my LIBERTARIAN principles eschew the use of force except in self defense and that includes for example using force to steal the property of one person and give it to another, regardless of how "good" the "cause" is it's pursuant to.

Neither the Progressive impulse nor the Conservative one is tethered to any particular mode of acting upon it.

What, in your estimation, are the respective characteristics of the progressive "impulse" and of the conservative "impulse"?


Conservatives actually do believe in wise investments - in both private and public sectors.
"Conservatives" is a generic moniker for a non-monolithic set of people and beliefs and everybody I know regardless of what moniker they apply to themselves believe in "wise" investments, since "wise" is relative and to be opposed to that would be to believe in "unwise" investments (which few people will admit to). In most cases those that espouse the concept of "public sector investment" fail to consider that financing for such projects must be done by wealth transfers from the productive private sector and thus inflict opportunity costs there and make the necessary ROI and RISK evaluation normally required for "wise" "investment" decisions nearly impossible.


Progressive do believe in preserving and protecting our free enterprise system.

I'm sure some do as I'm quite sure some do not, however that is not the point of contention, the point of contention is how they propose to go about "preserving and protecting" it, since generally speaking a cornerstone of progressive thought has been and remains the advocacy of economic central planning and wealth redistribution, neither of which is conducive to "preserving and protecting" a system of free enterprise in fact history has shown that they are in fact destructive to it.


I have a very keen understanding of Progressivism.

Unfortunately you have yet to demonstrate it, perhaps at some point you will and should that come to pass I will happily acknowledge it but so far I'm dubious as to the veracity of your claim.


With all due respect, your version of the word - the one trumpeted by the entertainers of your philosophy - bears no resemblance to history or our current reality.

You have not demonstrated that you even understand what my "philosophy" is let alone who "entertainers" of it might be.


There are patriots all around - except for the fundamentalists of any philosophy who ALWAYS throw the People under the bus.

This statement begs the question, do you believe that people unwilling to compromise their own principles for the matters expediency or convenience are "fundamentalists"? I'm not saying that you do but from what you've written it sure appears that way.


Name calling and revisionism is no way to go through life.
Ok, if you believe that assertion is correct then refrain from engaging in those practices. :dunno:

[ROOK]

I believe that you know that Beck is just an agitator and provocateur who likes to manipulate fools with hot button issues regardless of the truth, and that, because of that single fact, you like him. He serves your purposes, which is all that appears to matter to someone like you.

Thank you for relaying your version of what I believe, I found it quite entertaining.


Now, my question is, do those purposes serve Humanity as a whole, or just a few?
Do yours?

Other people serve my purpose by pursuing their own purposes without infringing upon my life, liberty or property, it's fairly simple, I ask nothing from others that they are not willing to give based on mutually agreed upon terms nor will I willingly countenance any demand for cooperation from others made under threats of force. I ask nothing from the federal government except that it serves the sole purpose for it's existence and no other, specifically to protect my life, liberty and property from people that are unwilling to reciprocate with the same respect for my natural rights that I willingly and enthusiastically give to theirs.

Isn't it ironic that I care more about your life, liberty and property than you do?

[Trinnity]

MediaMatters (leftwing propaganda machine) :lmao2: :taunt:

We're on to you Marxists who call yourselves "progressives". You thought your were gonna pull it off, but you won't. You're exposed and we Capitalists and Constitutionalists are coming after you.

You're a true believer, Bairdi. How much is Obama paying you? Oh, right, nothing. Have another glass of red koolaid, kitten. :lmao2::hi:

[dsolo802]

Again you miss the point , it isn't about "fundamentalist" or "conservatism" or the "GOP" , it's about principles, you are either a person that is willing to compromise them for expediency or convenience or you're not. For example my LIBERTARIAN principles eschew the use of force except in self defense and that includes for example using force to steal the property of one person and give it to another, regardless of how "good" the "cause" is it's pursuant to.It is neither about Party or the labels you seem bent on using, neither is it about philosophy - it is about intelligence and the wisdom of using the two basic impulses that inform it, the conservative impulse - to conserve, and the progressive impulse - to promote the goodness so that more can enjoy it.

There are some conservative people who are cannibals. That does not mean that all conservatives are cannibals.

There are some people who call themselves progressive who think the only way to expand the blessings of liberty is through State control. That doesn't mean that all Progressives are Czar and gulag loving commies. My apologies to the moron in chief, the ever wrong Glen Beck.

This is school girl's logic that does nothing but detract from serious policy debates in which we, The People and our elected officials, urgently need to engage.

What, in your estimation, are the respective characteristics of the progressive "impulse" and of the conservative "impulse"?If you have ever run a business or worked in organizational design or attempted to organize anything you know there is a time for expansion and a time for consolidation.

People who are primarily conservative naturally seek first to preserve the goodness already achieved for those already enjoying it. People who are primarily progressive seek to expand existing goodness for ever growing numbers of people. Depending upon the circumstances, there are times when conserving is the intelligent thing to do. And vice versa.

"Conservatives" is a generic moniker for a non-monolithic set of people and beliefs and everybody I know regardless of what moniker they apply to themselves believe in "wise" investments, since "wise" is relative and to be opposed to that would be to believe in "unwise" investments (which few people will admit to). In most cases those that espouse the concept of "public sector investment" fail to consider that financing for such projects must be done by wealth transfers from the productive private sector and thus inflict opportunity costs there and make the necessary ROI and RISK evaluation normally required for "wise" "investment" decisions nearly impossible. The private sector in the nature of things is the very best engine for attributing "value" to goods and services that already exist - and for promoting incremental change. It is not an engine that can be counted upon, alone, to produce leaps of innovation when it is needed by the People. The risk reward calculus for some national challenges are simply too skewed against private sector action to produce private sector action - no matter how urgent the need for fundamental change maybe, e.g., space flight, energy and environmental policy change, race relations - etc.

I'm sure some do as I'm quite sure some do not, however that is not the point of contention, the point of contention is how they propose to go about "preserving and protecting" it, since generally speaking a cornerstone of progressive thought has been and remains the advocacy of economic central planning and wealth redistribution.No, that is not correct. A very small part of the those who identify as having that Progressive impulse would agree with that sentiment. Nice talking point to divide the people though.

Unfortunately you have yet to demonstrate it, perhaps at some point you will and should that come to pass I will happily acknowledge it but so far I'm dubious as to the veracity of your claim. Demonstrate what? That people have the impulses as I've described them. I think anyone who is honest will admit to having precisely those impulses.

You have not demonstrated that you even understand what my "philosophy" is let alone who "entertainers" of it might be. By siding with the "entertainers" of whom I was speaking, you prove I do understand your philosophy. I was referring of course to these poisonous clowns. I understand the Libertarian philosophy, and the economic theory behind it, quite well, thanks.

This statement begs the question, do you believe that people unwilling to compromise their own principles for the matters expediency or convenience are "fundamentalists"? I'm not saying that you do but from what you've written it sure appears that way. You want to speak of principles. I want to speak of intelligence and pragmatism. I think talking about what will actually work within the frame of government we currently enjoy trumps endless philosophical discussions about what should work - and never has.

[olddude]

Unfortunately for me, Old Dude, I have listened. They are purveyors of poison. They are short on facts, and ultra liberal with mean spirited opinions. They pray on our fears and prejudices, and divide us to our detriment and everlasting shame.

Conservative thought and Progressive thought are not either or propositions. There is a time for every purpose under heaven.

I guess that all depends on what your brand of truth is. Progressives, demoCrits, liberals have their brand of truth like all conservatives want to do is starve children and old people. Talk about lies all you have to do is watch the evening news and listen to the left leaning news reporter (if you want to call them that) talk about how we are destroying the planet, or how the repubs blocked another vote in congress even though they don't have the votes to block anything. Just like albore crying the blues that he didn't win the presidency and could even carry his own state. There is plenty of blame to go around but from where I'm sitting one can find more real truth on Fox, beck, or Rush. All you have to do is wade through the theatrics but the fact remains there is a lot of truth in what they say.

I can understand why you can't see the truth because of your political leanings but it doesn't mean it isn't there. Gubment should never be involved with spreading the wealth because when that happens before they can give to someone else they have to take it from someone else. That is just wrong in my opinion. I just can't put my arms around the thought of robbing one person so that another can enjoy the fruits of life. The gubment should do everything it can do or not do to create a environment so that that person you want give someone else's money to can break out from the bonds of your well meaning feel good feelings and go out and get his own piece of the pie. It's out there all you have to do is go get it.

Will it be harder than to sit around the house waiting for some well meaning liberal to go out and rob someone else so he can bring home the bacon to him. hell yeah it will be harder but in the end that person can enjoy what he earns and he will enjoy it more than if it was given to him.

We are in the position we are in because of the failed ideas of the progressive movement. The country is broke, we have spent more than we produce because it is so easy for the politicians to spend money that isn't theirs. The waste is sinful in Washington and there is no reason this country could not dig itself out of this mess and get back on track to where everyone could not get a piece of the American dream. Not everyone wants to work in this country, I know this is hard for you to grasp but some people want to be homeless, they are that way by choice. Not everyone shares you feelings about free health care, free rubbers, free cheese, or free anything. They are happy to be alive and out there making it on their own, who the hell are you to force your brand of mercy on them?

You know what makes me sick? I am sick to death of the millions of people in this country that have been held hostage and and saddled with the burden of welfare for generation after generation because they never figured out how to get off the gubment tit. They have been held hostage to a welfare check and the promises that the demoCrits have made to them that they are the only ones that care about them and if it wasn't for them they would starve to death. If you want lies there is one for you. conservatives want these people to get a job not because they are mean spirited. They want them to get a job so that they can live the American dream if they want to.

Progressives want to tax the people that have made money so that they can keep another group down in the ditches so they feel good about themselves for sticking it to the so called rich guy. I don't know when, but this feel good shit is going to come to an end sooner or later. This bunch that are ruling this country now and think they can do anything they like are bringing that day closer. I don't want to see a civil war even if we could have one again but there is about to be a revolution in this country because things have gotten so far out of control something has got to happen. We are about as divided as this country has ever been.....just about divided right down the middle and it isn't going to take much to set off one side against the other. This country will never be controlled by a gubment like the one that is taking up space in Washington today. Not for long anyway.

There are millions of people hurting in this country right now because of the bullshit games these sorry bastages are playing. People are losing their jobs, their savings, their homes, everything they have worked for all their lives. they have cashed in their IRA accounts and just about anything else they can sell off just to stay in their homes another month or two and these people are playing political games. Once someone that has lived the American dream and has worked all their lives to provide for their families and then when they are about to be able to sit back and enjoy the fruits of their labor and in comes a bunch of socialist with a dream of their own to put the white rich man in his place. Once these people have nothing left they are not going to be satisfied with a gubment check and gubment housing. No sir, before that happens the shit will hit the fan.

[nondual]

Do yours?
That's all I always wanted to do.

Other people serve my purpose by pursuing their own purposes without infringing upon my life, liberty or property, it's fairly simple, I ask nothing from others that they are not willing to give based on mutually agreed upon terms nor will I willingly countenance any demand for cooperation from others made under threats of force.
Do you see as the only purpose in life, to acquire as much wealth and power as possible, regardless of the means utilized? What brings more serenity to your life, wealth or knowledge?

I ask nothing from the federal government except that it serves the sole purpose for it's existence and no other, specifically to protect my life, liberty and property from people that are unwilling to reciprocate with the same respect for my natural rights that I willingly and enthusiastically give to theirs.

Isn't it ironic that I care more about your life, liberty and property than you do?
:) How can a government controlled by corporations protect OUR lives, liberty and property? That doesn't make sense. The way things are today, which is the way Republicans want to keep it, government exists to protect corporations from the people, instead of the people from corporations. Case in point, the BP disaster.

How can a weak people protect our nation against rising powers as China? Especially with all of the unpatriotic job outsourcing that is going on, and the cockamamie trading deals being made by past administrations. The 'every man for himself' mentality with everyone pulling in different ways isn't going to make this country strong and secure. What we need are strong, modern, and sustainable systems in place, and the only way to achieve this goal is with a strong government.

[Trinnity]

Progressives hate Beck because he is really exposing them and their man, Obama.

Alinsky, and his famous "rules for radicals".
Tides foundation
SEIU
Obama's close ties with Bill Ayers, Bernadine Dorn, and other extreme radicals and domestic terrorists.
Ayers and Dorn's financial backing of the flotilla incident.
400 million in aid to the Palestinians.
Ties to Marxists, Obama's Marxist roots.
Black Liberation Theology --->what it really means.
The perversion of Rev. King's ideals.
The joined-at-the-hip symbiosis of atheism and Marxism.
Indoctrination through the schools (again the Tides foundation).
Vilifying the police.
Social justice.
Fundamental change.
Refusing to enforce federal law.
Exempting the SEC from the FOIA.
Refusing to prosecute the NBPP for voter intimidation.
The connection between Obama ---> GE ---> NBC ---> MSNBC.
Getting around law through regulation.
Strategizing for back door amnesty.
And on, and on, and on.

He's on to progressives. So are we. A lot of this we knew about w/o Beck. A lot of it we didn't.

Progressives should hate him. He's arming people with the truth and messing it all up for the progressives.

When he was on CNN bashing Bush, y'all loved him. Now that he's on Fox stripping Obama, y'all hate him.

He must be onto the truth to be number 1 on your shit list. :taunt:

[nondual]

I guess that all depends on what your brand of truth is. Progressives, demoCrits, liberals have their brand of truth like all conservatives want to do is starve children and old people. Talk about lies all you have to do is watch the evening news and listen to the left leaning news reporter (if you want to call them that) talk about how we are destroying the planet, or how the repubs blocked another vote in congress even though they don't have the votes to block anything. Just like albore crying the blues that he didn't win the presidency and could even carry his own state. There is plenty of blame to go around but from where I'm sitting one can find more real truth on Fox, beck, or Rush. All you have to do is wade through the theatrics but the fact remains there is a lot of truth in what they say.

I can understand why you can't see the truth because of your political leanings but it doesn't mean it isn't there. Gubment should never be involved with spreading the wealth because when that happens before they can give to someone else they have to take it from someone else. That is just wrong in my opinion. I just can't put my arms around the thought of robbing one person so that another can enjoy the fruits of life. The gubment should do everything it can do or not do to create a environment so that that person you want give someone else's money to can break out from the bonds of your well meaning feel good feelings and go out and get his own piece of the pie. It's out there all you have to do is go get it.

Will it be harder than to sit around the house waiting for some well meaning liberal to go out and rob someone else so he can bring home the bacon to him. hell yeah it will be harder but in the end that person can enjoy what he earns and he will enjoy it more than if it was given to him.

We are in the position we are in because of the failed ideas of the progressive movement. The country is broke, we have spent more than we produce because it is so easy for the politicians to spend money that isn't theirs. The waste is sinful in Washington and there is no reason this country could not dig itself out of this mess and get back on track to where everyone could not get a piece of the American dream. Not everyone wants to work in this country, I know this is hard for you to grasp but some people want to be homeless, they are that way by choice. Not everyone shares you feelings about free health care, free rubbers, free cheese, or free anything. They are happy to be alive and out there making it on their own, who the hell are you to force your brand of mercy on them?

You know what makes me sick? I am sick to death of the millions of people in this country that have been held hostage and and saddled with the burden of welfare for generation after generation because they never figured out how to get off the gubment tit. They have been held hostage to a welfare check and the promises that the demoCrits have made to them that they are the only ones that care about them and if it wasn't for them they would starve to death. If you want lies there is one for you. conservatives want these people to get a job not because they are mean spirited. They want them to get a job so that they can live the American dream if they want to.

Progressives want to tax the people that have made money so that they can keep another group down in the ditches so they feel good about themselves for sticking it to the so called rich guy. I don't know when, but this feel good shit is going to come to an end sooner or later. This bunch that are ruling this country now and think they can do anything they like are bringing that day closer. I don't want to see a civil war even if we could have one again but there is about to be a revolution in this country because things have gotten so far out of control something has got to happen. We are about as divided as this country has ever been.....just about divided right down the middle and it isn't going to take much to set off one side against the other. This country will never be controlled by a gubment like the one that is taking up space in Washington today. Not for long anyway.

There are millions of people hurting in this country right now because of the bullshit games these sorry bastages are playing. People are losing their jobs, their savings, their homes, everything they have worked for all their lives. they have cashed in their IRA accounts and just about anything else they can sell off just to stay in their homes another month or two and these people are playing political games. Once someone that has lived the American dream and has worked all their lives to provide for their families and then when they are about to be able to sit back and enjoy the fruits of their labor and in comes a bunch of socialist with a dream of their own to put the white rich man in his place. Once these people have nothing left they are not going to be satisfied with a gubment check and gubment housing. No sir, before that happens the shit will hit the fan.
Wall Street, in collusion with Bush's White House, cleaned up the banks, and you are blaming liberals? The biggest heist in the history of Mankind, and you want to put them back in power? What's wrong with you?

For there to be progress, there needs to be change, that's why I am a progressive.

[nondual]

Alinsky, and his famous "rules for radicals".
Tides foundation
SEIU
Obama's close ties with Bill Ayers, Bernadine Dorn, and other extreme radicals and domestic terrorists.
Ayers and Dorn's financial backing of the flotilla incident.
400 million in aid to the Palestinians.
Ties to Marxists, Obama's Marxist roots.
Black Liberation Theology --->what it really means.
The perversion of Rev. King's ideals.
The joined-at-the-hip symbiosis of atheism and Marxism.
Indoctrination through the schools (again the Tides foundation).
Vilifying the police.
Social justice.
Fundamental change.
Refusing to enforce federal law.
Exempting the SEC from the FOIA.
Refusing to prosecute the NBPP for voter intimidation.
The connection between Obama ---> GE ---> NBC ---> MSNBC.
Getting around law through regulation.
Strategizing for back door amnesty.
:lmao2: Glenn Beck is crazy! :lmao2: I'm telling you! :lmao2:

[MintJulep]

:lmao2: Glenn Beck is crazy! :lmao2: I'm telling you! :lmao2:Use your channel changer and stop worrying about mine! :lmao2:

[olddude]

Wall Street, in collusion with Bush's White House, cleaned up the banks, and you are blaming liberals? The biggest heist in the history of Mankind, and you want to put them back in power? What's wrong with you?

For there to be progress, there needs to be change, that's why I am a progressive.

No you are wrong little progressive, the biggest heist in history is the social security scam. Trillions of dollars that was gutted out of monies paid into a shit hole progressive slush fund for the demoCrits to use like it was beer money at a friday night frat party. The progressive idea that everyone should be able to own a home regardless if the had a job or not is what caused the mess we are in right now. Your pal barney frank and his CEO butt buddy at fanny cutting corn hole deals in the board rooms all across America to see to it that the wealth was spread to every corner regardless of the outcome. The sad thing is that this would have probably gone on another 20 years or so before it blew up in their faces if it had not been for the damage done to the banking system brought to us by your other friend OBL.

You know, your silly trolling rant would be funny if it was not for the fact of amount of misery and turmoil your demoCrit friends have caused. I do blame the repubs too. I blame then for losing their backbone and not sticking to their convictions and standing up for America and her values. For standing by and letting these gutless demoCrits keep on doing their handiwork. your big gubment progressive liberalism is not going to work in this country. It is like any other nasty disease that has plagued this land and will end up like all the rest sooner or later will. Your little community organizing presidential impostor will be the death of this awful disease I'm afraid he bitten off more than he's going to be able to chew. looking for the little sign for piss up a rope.:D

[Trinnity]

:lmao2: Glenn Beck is crazy! :lmao2: I'm telling you! :lmao2:Deflect and deny ---> straight out of the Alinsky playbook. You're not convincing anyone but yourself. It's foolish to believe in this destructive Prez. You'd have to me a Marxist to support him - or the world's biggest loser. It must be getting hard in the face of such a disaster. :lmao2:

[Trinnity]

No you are wrong little progressive, the biggest heist in history is the social security scam. Trillions of dollars that was gutted out of monies paid into a shit hole progressive slush fund for the demoCrits to use like it was beer money at a friday night frat party. The progressive idea that everyone should be able to own a home regardless if the had a job or not is what caused the mess we are in right now. Your pal barney frank and his CEO butt buddy at fanny cutting corn hole deals in the board rooms all across America to see to it that the wealth was spread to every corner regardless of the outcome. The sad thing is that this would have probably gone on another 20 years or so before it blew up in their faces if it had not been for the damage done to the banking system brought to us by your other friend OBL.

You know, your silly trolling rant would be funny if it was not for the fact of amount of misery and turmoil your demoCrit friends have caused. I do blame the repubs too. I blame then for losing their backbone and not sticking to their convictions and standing up for America and her values. For standing by and letting these gutless demoCrits keep on doing their handiwork. your big gubment progressive liberalism is not going to work in this country. It is like any other nasty disease that has plagued this land and will end up like all the rest sooner or later will. Your little community organizing presidential impostor will be the death of this awful disease I'm afraid he bitten off more than he's going to be able to chew. looking for the little sign for piss up a rope.:D
What he said ^ .

Social Security and medicare are sucking this country dry and have to be phased out. I'm 51, and I'll take my chances without it so the country can survive. Cut the pork. Cut the earmarks. Let us read the damn bills before they're voted on. Stop railroading us. WE ARE PISSED AND WE WILL STOP YOU.

[dsolo802]

Progressives hate Beck because he is really exposing them and their man, Obama.

Alinsky, and his famous "rules for radicals".
Tides foundation
SEIU
Obama's close ties with Bill Ayers, Bernadine Dorn, and other extreme radicals and domestic terrorists.
Ayers and Dorn's financial backing of the flotilla incident.
400 million in aid to the Palestinians.
Ties to Marxists, Obama's Marxist roots.
Black Liberation Theology --->what it really means.
The perversion of Rev. King's ideals.
The joined-at-the-hip symbiosis of atheism and Marxism.
Indoctrination through the schools (again the Tides foundation).
Vilifying the police.
Social justice.
Fundamental change.
Refusing to enforce federal law.
Exempting the SEC from the FOIA.
Refusing to prosecute the NBPP for voter intimidation.
The connection between Obama ---> GE ---> NBC ---> MSNBC.
Getting around law through regulation.
Strategizing for back door amnesty.
And on, and on, and on.

He's on to progressives. So are we. A lot of this we knew about w/o Beck. A lot of it we didn't.

Progressives should hate him. He's arming people with the truth and messing it all up for the progressives.

When he was on CNN bashing Bush, y'all loved him. Now that he's on Fox stripping Obama, y'all hate him.

He must be onto the truth to be number 1 on your shit list. :taunt:We should legalize what you are smoking.

He has no close ties with Ayers. That's an allegation factcheck.org called, "Groundless, False, Dubious"

Ties with marxists? And your basis for stating this as a conclusion is - what?

Yes, he did attend a black liberation theology church. If you want to believe the worst about it you can. That speaks volumes about you, and nothing about it. For a more even look at what black liberation theology is, and it's roots, look here (http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/susan_k_smith/2008/09/whats_wrong_with_black_liberat.html)

Martin Luther King is an important hero for black people. Not the only one. Perhaps you are less intimidated by someone who preaches non-violence in the face of racist bile. Do you have the same attitude towards Israel and its militant Jewish leaders - who never turn the other cheek? Tell me: Who are you to critique how a black man "should" behave in the face of racism in this country?

As for the Immelt connection, are you suggesting that GE got no-bid contracts for government purchased Wind Turbines? My oh my how suspicious would it be for a President to like companies and their leaders who invest in clean energy technologies - after repeatedly espousing green technologies on the campaign trail. My God this is sinister!!

And, horrors, why oh why would he appoint a leader in clean energy to his Economic recovery board after repeatedly stating that our economic recovery and the United States being a leader in green technology go together like peanut butter and jelly. I mean how plain, outright, sinister, evil and hypocritical it is for him to act on that notion - I mean after his election, the time when campaign promises are usually forgotten. What a bastard!

Getting around law through regulation is an idiotic notion. Regulation is law!

As for refusing to enforce Federal law, are you referring to the refusal of Federal prosecutors to use their discretion to prosecute only one of three defendants for white voter intimidation at a virtually all black polling place? Or perhaps for failure to use prosecutorial discretion to indict Cheney, Bush and Rumsfield for crimes against humanity? They did use their discretion in both cases you know.

Strategy for backdoor amnesty? Ah, now you are channeling! I'm relieved to hear the Amazing Kreskin has not retired. I do get you though. For the Maxist Kenyan, it's just righteous to assume the worst about someone who is so OBVIOUSLY bad! Check! and Mate!

When Beck farts or cries he makes sense. And you think you are onto something. You have picked up a trail all right - and Good luck to you!

[Frankg]

This article just about sums it all up.

Glenn Beck's Incendiary Rhetoric Is Dangerously Close to Having a Body Count
By Eric Boehlert, Media Matters for America
Posted on July 27, 2010, Printed on July 28, 2010
http://www.alternet.org/story/147647/

On his Monday radio show, Glenn Beck highlighted claims that before he started targeting a little-known, left-leaning organization called the Tides Foundation on his Fox News TV show, "nobody knew" what the non-profit was.

Indeed, for more than a year Beck has been portraying the progressive organization as a central player in a larger, nefarious cabal of Marxist/socialist/Nazi Obama-loving outlets determined to destroy democracy in America. Beck has routinely smeared the low-profile entity for being staffed by "thugs" and "bullies" and involved in "the nasty of the nastiest," like indoctrinating schoolchildren and creating a "mass organization to seize power."

As Media Matters reported, the conspiratorial host had mentioned (read: attacked) the little-known progressive organization nearly 30 times on his Fox program alone since it premiered in 2009, including several mentions in the last month. (Beck's the only TV talker who regularly references the foundation, according to our Nexis searches.)

So yes, Beck has done all he can to scare the hell out of people about the Tides Foundation and "turn the light of day" onto an organization that actually facilitates non-profit giving.

And guess what? Everybody in America would have found out about the Tides Foundation last week if Byron Williams had had his way. He's the right-wing, government-hating, gun-toting nut who strapped on his body armor, stocked a pickup truck with guns and ammo, and set off up the California coast to San Francisco in order to start killing employees at the previously obscure Tides Foundation in hopes of sparking a political revolution.

Thankfully, the planned domestic terrorist attack never came to pass because California Highway Patrol officers pulled Williams over for drunk driving on his way to his killing spree. Williams quickly opened fire, wounding two officers during a lengthy shootout. Luckily, Williams wasn't able to act out the ultimate goal of his dark anger -- fueled by the TV news he watched -- about how "Congress was railroading through all these left-wing agenda items," as his mother put it. Williams wasn't able to open fire inside the offices of the Tides Foundation, an organization "nobody knew" about until Glenn Beck started targeting it.

And thankfully, Williams wasn't able to take his place alongside a growing list of domestic, anti-government terrorists, such as the recent Pentagon shooter, the Holocaust Museum gunman, the kamikaze pilot who flew his plane into an IRS building in Austin, Texas, and the Pittsburgh cop-killer who set up an ambush because he was convinced Obama was going to take away his guns.

All the vigilante attacks appear to have been fueled by an almost pathological hatred for the U.S. government -- the same open hatred that right-wing bloggers, AM talk radio hosts, and Fox News' lineup of anti-government prophets have been frantically fueling for the last year, pushing doomsday warnings of America's democratic demise under President Obama.

And the sad the sad truth is we're going to see more like Byron Williams. We're going to see more attempts at vigilante violence during the Age of Obama simply because the right-wing media, lead by Beck, continue to gleefully (albeit irresponsibly) stoke dangerous fires with the kind of relentlessly incendiary rhetoric that has no match in terms of modern day, mainstream use in American politics or media.

Just listen to Glenn Beck:

* Progressives "are sucking the blood out of the republic" and are "gonna start getting more and more violent."

* "To the day I die, I am going to be a progressive hunter."

* "[Y]ou will have to shoot me in the forehead before you take away my gun" and "before I acquiesce and be silent."

* "This game is for keeps"; "[Y]ou can shoot me in the head ... but there will be 10 others that line up."

* "There is a coup going on. There is a stealing of America"; "God help us in an emergency."'

And don't forget about the unhinged response when health care reform was passed in March: "Get down on your knees and pray. Pray. It's September 11th all over again, except that we didn't have the collapsing buildings." After financial reform passed last week, Beck told his audience, "Your republic is over."

Meanwhile, Andrew Breitbart's website recently tagged Obama as the "suicide-bomber-in-chief," while the conservative Washington Times just last week published an op-ed -- by a former congressman, no less -- asserting the president poses more of a threat to America than al Qaeda.

Note that the radical right's media rhetoric is no longer even political in a partisan sense. Instead, it's purely revolutionary. It isn't, "We think taxes should be lower" or "Obama should be more hawkish overseas." It's, "There's an insidious and deadly plot afoot by Democrats and progressives to strip Americans of their freedom and this country of its greatness." Obama is now the incarnation of evil (the Antichrist?), and his driving hatred for America, as well as for democracy, runs so deep that he ran for president in order to destroy the United States from inside the Oval Office.

Rush Limbaugh: "Our country is being overthrown from within."

And this summer, the latest toxic twist to that line of attack is that Obama is destroying America on purpose in order to exact revenge from white America for the historic sin of slavery. (Think: Black Manchurian Candidate.) The GOP Noise Machine is now mixing a vile cocktail by stirring revolutionary rhetoric with hateful race-baiting.

It's impossible to argue that today's avalanche of insurrectionist rhetoric doesn't have a real world effect. Or that those on the fringes don't find comfort in seeing and hearing their worst fears legitimized on AM radio and Fox News.

The consequences of the doomsday programming seem entirely predictable. As Jeffrey Jones, a professor of media and politics at Old Dominion University, recently explained to the New York Times in regard to Beck's rhetoric, "People hear their values are under attack and they get worried. It becomes an opportunity for them to stand up and do something."

Indeed, the relentless message that right-wing audiences hear is unequivocal and inescapable: Do something! Take action!

And last week, Byron Williams, likely inspired by Glenn Beck's Tides obsession, grabbed his guns and set out to do just that.
Pot calling the kettle black Bairdi.

I remember a few years ago it was you people:

Supporting Al-Quada by burning American Flags.
Burning US soldiers and President George W Bush in effigy.
Calling President George W Bush and terrorist and a facist.
Supporting the likes of Hugo Chavez.
Accusing President George W Bush of planning 9/11.
Claiming that we DESERVED to be attacked on 9/11.
Accusing american soldiers of killing innocent civilians
Supporting rights for captured terrorists.
Supporting the NY Times for leaking sensitive information about secret programs monitoring terrorists funding.All of this so called "patriotic dissent" contributed to the deaths of many US soldiers in Afganistan and Iraq .

When it comes to abusing free speech and "body counts" Beck has nothing on you people.

[nondual]

No you are wrong little progressive, the biggest heist in history is the social security scam. Trillions of dollars that was gutted out of monies paid into a shit hole progressive slush fund for the demoCrits to use like it was beer money at a friday night frat party.
Both parties do it.

The progressive idea that everyone should be able to own a home regardless if the had a job or not is what caused the mess we are in right now. Your pal barney frank and his CEO butt buddy at fanny cutting corn hole deals in the board rooms all across America to see to it that the wealth was spread to every corner regardless of the outcome. The sad thing is that this would have probably gone on another 20 years or so before it blew up in their faces if it had not been for the damage done to the banking system brought to us by your other friend OBL.
The damage done to the economy by Fanny and Freddy was nothing compared to the damage done by Bush's tax cuts.

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/6-11-10f2.jpg

And the ones taking the perp walk after the subprime crisis were the Wall Street bankers. Many of which went to jail for fraud.

You know, your silly trolling rant...
My silly rant? RANT? Really?

[nondual]

Pot calling the kettle black Bairdi.

I remember a few years ago it was you people:
[LIST]
Supporting Al-Quada by burning American Flags.
You are confused, those were protesters at the G8 and G20 meetings. They were anarchists.

Burning US soldiers and President George W Bush in effigy.
Here, you are probably talking about angry Muslims in some Arab countries.

Calling President George W Bush and terrorist and a facist.
Everyone and their mother was calling Bush a terrorist and a fascist.

Supporting the likes of Hugo Chavez.
Very few on the far left... maybe. But Obama's government is pretty much on the center, in case you didn't know.

Accusing President George W Bush of planning 9/11.
Again, a few nuts here and there.

Claiming that we DESERVED to be attacked on 9/11.
That was far right wing-nut, Pat Robertson.

Accusing american soldiers of killing innocent civilians
Everyone is doing this.

Supporting rights for captured terrorists.
Most normal people do.

Supporting the NY Times for leaking sensitive information about secret programs monitoring terrorists funding. All of this so called "patriotic dissent" contributed to the deaths of many US soldiers in Afganistan and Iraq.
This I will admit, we are all for a free and independent press. But nothing did more damage to our security and our reputation than Abu Graib.

[ROOK]

That's all I always wanted to do.

Then by all means pursue whatever your idea of altruism happens to be and allow others the freedom to do the same whether there's matches yours or not.


Do you see as the only purpose in life, to acquire as much wealth and power as possible, regardless of the means utilized?

Where did I ever imply that this was the case?


What brings more serenity to your life, wealth or knowledge?

I'm quite satisfied with the acquisition of both since it's not an either or proposition.


:) How can a government controlled by corporations protect OUR lives, liberty and property? That doesn't make sense.
The way things are today, which is the way Republicans want to keep it, government exists to protect corporations from the people, instead of the people from corporations. Case in point, the BP disaster.

Spare me your foolish partisan nonsense, Both parties are the pawns of corporate and special interest paymasters. However wouldn't it be a better state of affairs to have a "weaker", constitutionally limited federal government "controlled by corporations" than a "stronger", essentially unlimited one ? In which scenario are the people's life, liberty and property more secure?


How can a weak people protect our nation against rising powers as China?

Why do you assume I'm advocating weak people? and why are you afraid of China, since the Chinese have shown no propensity for belligerence against other nations.


Especially with all of the unpatriotic job outsourcing that is going on, and the cockamamie trading deals being made by past administrations.

LOL, "unpatriotic job outsourcing"? how about the "unpatriotic" economic policies that make outsourcing necessary to compete? I guess companies should just keep the jobs here and get put out of business by foreign competitors that don't have our over burdensome regulatory environment and taxation? would that be "patriotic" in your book?


The 'every man for himself' mentality with everyone pulling in different ways

Nice fallacy there, however I prefer voluntary cooperation among individuals pursuing mutually agreed upon objectives instead of compulsory cooperation to meet the objectives selected by authoritarians.


isn't going to make this country strong and secure. What we need are strong, modern, and sustainable systems in place, and the only way to achieve this goal is with a strong government.
I understand, you prefer a strong government so that the liberty and property of others can be trampled as they are forced to comply with your and your partisan puppet masters vision of altruism, as long as your wants are serviced I guess the rest of the citizenry should just keep their mouths shut and go along with program.

[olddude]

Both parties do it.


The damage done to the economy by Fanny and Freddy was nothing compared to the damage done by Bush's tax cuts.

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/6-11-10f2.jpg

And the ones taking the perp walk after the subprime crisis were the Wall Street bankers. Many of which went to jail for fraud.


My silly rant? RANT? Really?


Yes really!!!!

There are always fall guys for people like frank and dodd. They write the rules and are exempted from the fall out because they are demoCrits. Not for long though, their days are numbered and along with a bunch of other demoCrits AND repubs that have put this country in the shape it's in.

I wont even respond to the dumb ass statement about the Bush tax cuts. Either you are too stewpid to understand basic economics or you are trolling your ass off. Either way it's no use me sitting here wasting band width trying to explain it to you.

"Both parties do it"

That's real fucking classic! That makes it ok?? Do you realize how much money these people have swindled out of the American tax payer? Or do you really care?

[ROOK]

Yes really!!!!

There are always fall guys for people like frank and dodd. They write the rules and are exempted from the fall out because they are demoCrits. Not for long though, their days are numbered and along with a bunch of other demoCrits AND repubs that have put this country in the shape it's in.

I wont even respond to the dumb ass statement about the Bush tax cuts. Either you are too stewpid to understand basic economics or you are trolling your ass off. Either way it's no use me sitting here wasting band width trying to explain it to you.

You have to make certain allowances for nondual , he doesn't understand the difference between the federal deficit and the economy.


The damage done to the economy by Fanny and Freddy was nothing compared to the damage done by Bush's tax cuts.

[olddude]

You have to make certain allowances for nondual , he doesn't understand the difference between the federal deficit and the economy.

I know, I know, I should know better. I guess I'm just getting a little antsy with anticipation of the up coming election cycle. Not that I think he and some here will see the light before that time rolls around but it's just hard to understand how some people can be so wrong in their thinking. Sad comes to mind, but then I think of the trolling angle and my mind is relieved a little. Not that trolling is all that good of a thing either because trolls are never changeable they just keep the pot stirred. But I would rather believe in the trolling angle for most of them because the thought of someone being that simple minded is just plain wrong.:lmao2:

[nondual]

Yes really!!!!
:lmao2: Ranting is all you've doing lately, olddude. :pokefun: :oldman:

There are always fall guys for people like frank and dodd. They write the rules and are exempted from the fall out because they are demoCrits.
They are congressmen, that's what congressmen are supposed to do. Better than letting corps write the rules.

Not for long though, their days are numbered and along with a bunch of other demoCrits AND repubs that have put this country in the shape it's in.
There are good democrats, like Weiner and Grayson, who will fight special interests, but yes, there are many, both dems and reps, which need to be removed.

I wont even respond to the dumb ass statement about the Bush tax cuts. Either you are too stewpid to understand basic economics or you are trolling your ass off. Either way it's no use me sitting here wasting band width trying to explain it to you.
The CBO said it, not me.

I know, they are part of the conspiracy, right? Can't trust them any more. :lmao2:

"Both parties do it"

That's real fucking classic! That makes it ok?? Do you realize how much money these people have swindled out of the American tax payer? Or do you really care?
Better than saying it's only the democrats doing it.

[ROOK]

I know, I know, I should know better. I guess I'm just getting a little antsy with anticipation of the up coming election cycle. Not that I think he and some here will see the light before that time rolls around

I'd imagine some will stubbornly refuse to "see the light" until and unless the entire economy collapses around their ears or they find themselves the recipient of a midnight visit at the behest of those they thought would protect them from the evils of reality, but there's not much you can do for people that maliciously disregard their own liberty and property rights.


but it's just hard to understand how some people can be so wrong in their thinking. Sad comes to mind, but then I think of the trolling angle and my mind is relieved a little. Not that trolling is all that good of a thing either because trolls are never changeable they just keep the pot stirred. But I would rather believe in the trolling angle for most of them because the thought of someone being that simple minded is just plain wrong.:lmao2:

I've seen many talented trolls that were hilarious and well worth reading, it's just the overabundance of vapid trolls these days that gives trolling a bad name. :D

[ROOK]

There are good democrats, like Weiner and Grayson, who will fight special interests, but yes, there are many, both dems and reps, which need to be removed.

Why am I not surprised that you would choose two of the most vapid, wind bags available to hold up as examples of "good" Democrats. I guess irrational, foaming at the mouth hostility toward everybody that doesn't agree with you is something you consider a positive attribute, huh?

[MintJulep]

There are good democrats, like Weiner and Grayson, who will fight special interests, but yes, there are many, both dems and reps, which need to be removed.Grayson is a nutjob whose days are numbered here in Florida. Maybe he can take that crazy act on the road when he hits the unemployment lines next year.

[ROOK]

Grayson is a nutjob whose days are numbered here in Florida. Maybe he can take that crazy act on the road when he hits the unemployment lines next year.
:lmao2:

I can see it now

"The Grayson and Garofalo Show"
Angry as hell and not afraid to look foolish proving it

[nondual]

You have to make certain allowances for nondual , he doesn't understand the difference between the federal deficit and the economy.
You are your over nuanced and time wasting rhetoric...

Isn't a rising and out of control federal deficit synonymous to bad economic policies?

[nondual]

Why am I not surprised that you would choose two of the most vapid, wind bags available to hold up as examples of "good" Democrats. I guess irrational, foaming at the mouth hostility toward everybody that doesn't agree with you is something you consider a positive attribute, huh?
Irrational is the least they are.

[nondual]

Grayson is a nutjob whose days are numbered here in Florida. Maybe he can take that crazy act on the road when he hits the unemployment lines next year.
Alan Grayson is doing better than ever.

[olddude]

:lmao2: Ranting is all you've doing lately, olddude. :pokefun:


They are congressmen, that's what congressmen are supposed to do. Better than letting corps write the rules.


There are good democrats, like Weiner and Grayson, who will fight special interests, but yes, there are many, both dems and reps, which need to be removed.


The CBO said it, not me.

I know, they are part of the conspiracy, right? Can't trust them any more. :lmao2:


Better than saying it's only the democrats doing it.
No! that was from cbpp.org a so called non partisan think tank

And actually the CBO get's it 's numbers from the foxes that are watching the hen house....garbage in garbage out is about all you can expect out of them at present.

And it's ok for a congressman that's on the banking commitee help a gubment funded private corp like fanny and freddie get sweet heart deals and big bonus checks while this great demoCrit of yours is sleeping with the CEO of one of these companies. Come on even you should be able to see the problem here.:doh:

[nondual]

I'd imagine some will stubbornly refuse to "see the light" until and unless the entire economy collapses around their ears...
That's exactly where we were at the end of 2008... thanks to YOUR outdated ideas.

[bairdi]

I'd imagine some will stubbornly refuse to "see the light" until and unless the entire economy collapses around their ears or they find themselves the recipient of a midnight visit at the behest of those they thought would protect them from the evils of reality, but there's not much you can do for people that maliciously disregard their own liberty and property rights.



I've seen many talented trolls that were hilarious and well worth reading, it's just the overabundance of vapid trolls these days that gives trolling a bad name. :D
Too bad you didn't guide everyone to "see the light" ten years ago when the president and his minions started two wars and funded them with tax cuts. For too many of us the economy has already collapsed around our ears and the midnight visit is from the bank with a foreclosure notice. But that ok. Keep preaching how unfettered, laizze faire capitalism will save us all while we watch jobs continue to disappear and be sold to the lowest bidder in order to bolster the bottom line.

[bairdi]

I know minty.........boooooooooooooosh! Save your time typing.

[olddude]

Grayson is a nutjob whose days are numbered here in Florida. Maybe he can take that crazy act on the road when he hits the unemployment lines next year.

Yeah it will be about time for the county fair and I hear the circus is always looking for circus good clowns:lmao2: .

[olddude]

:lmao2:

I can see it now

"The Grayson and Garofalo Show"
Angry as hell and not afraid to look foolish proving it

:lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: I'm so glad you showed up on this site. It hasn't been the same since.

[MintJulep]

Alan Grayson is doing better than ever.And I hope he keeps up the good work. Right now, he's running eight points behind his opponent.

http://www.orlandopoliticalpress.com/2010/07/26/zogby-todd-long-outpolls-grayson-in-district-8/

[ROOK]

That's exactly where we were at the end of 2008... thanks to YOUR outdated ideas.

It's fairly cute that you think that where we found ourselves in 2008 was as bad as things could possibly get, cute and sad.

Once upon a time there was a land called the Wiemar Republic, perhaps you've heard what happened to it?

[MintJulep]

:lmao2:

I can see it now

"The Grayson and Garofalo Show"

Angry as hell and not afraid to look foolish proving it
:lmao2: :lmao2:

Good one.

What a pair! Honestly, I think I could tolerate him over her. She is absolutely deplorable.

[MintJulep]

:lmao2: I'm so glad you showed up on this site. It hasn't been the same since. I agree 100%! I don't know how he got here, but I hope he stays.

He has a special knack for making libs look brain-damaged. :lmao2: :lmao2:

[ROOK]

Too bad you didn't guide everyone to "see the light" ten years ago when the president and his minions started two wars and funded them with tax cuts.

Believe me I tried but certain myopic hypocrites wouldn't listen back then either, it's a safe bet that between the two of us, I'm the one that's been consistent in my principles all along, especially given the fact that you apparently support leaders that are pursuing the same policies as President Gunslingin' Cowboy did.

It's baffling how those that claim to be anti-war suddenly are okay with it as soon as the warmongers in charge have a letter they like behind their names.

[ROOK]

I'm so glad you showed up on this site. It hasn't been the same since.

Thanks olddude well met my friend. :D

[olddude]

Too bad you didn't guide everyone to "see the light" ten years ago when the president and his minions started two wars and funded them with tax cuts. For too many of us the economy has already collapsed around our ears and the midnight visit is from the bank with a foreclosure notice. But that ok. Keep preaching how unfettered, laizze faire capitalism will save us all while we watch jobs continue to disappear and be sold to the lowest bidder in order to bolster the bottom line.

There is nothing that resembles capitalism that was the cause of all this misery. unless 9/11 is a new kind of capitalism that has just come on the scene. Also in the banking and insurance industry falling on it's face didn't have much to do with capitalism either, the lack there of did. You gubment caused this mess by making the banks write all those loans to people that could not afford them did.

Slicks recession, and lack of proper response to the many terrorist acts that were waged against us that led up to 9/11 and the damage that this caused to our banking system on top of several natural disasters that put further pressure on our already stretched to the max financial system DID.

Bush had a giant pile of shit handed to him and he dealt with it. You can argue weather we should have went to war all day long. I think it was the right response and so did just about ever member of congress at the time. A demoCrit controlled congress gave the go ahead to do what was necessary to get control of things in the middle east.

The tax cuts did help keep what was left of a stalling economy going. No one knows what would have happened if we had not cut the tax rates but my guess is that the economy would have tanked sooner than it did. By then the demoCrits controlled the check book and the spending really started.

Bush did some dumb shit and let the demoCrits get away with a lot of stuff he should have used his veto pen on but he had men in the field and they were being used as pawns for the demoCrits. You sign off on this and we will fund your war....for now.

[nondual]

Then by all means pursue whatever your idea of altruism happens to be and allow others the freedom to do the same whether there's matches yours or not.
I know altruism when I see it.


Where did I ever imply that this was the case?
I was just making a question. No reason to be annoyed, or is it?


I'm quite satisfied with the acquisition of both since it's not an either or proposition.
Right, but one must bring more satisfaction that the other. What I do is, I keep reminding myself that I can keep non of the things I have after I die, but, hopefully, I can keep my soul. That's why I try to keep it clean and healthy.


Spare me your foolish partisan nonsense, Both parties are the pawns of corporate and special interest paymasters. However wouldn't it be a better state of affairs to have a "weaker", constitutionally limited federal government "controlled by corporations" than a "stronger", essentially unlimited one ?
No one that I know of is calling for unlimited government, but there needs to be a balance, a middle point.


No one that I know of is calling for unlimited government, but there needs to be a balance, a middle point.In which scenario are the people's life, liberty and property more secure?
Look at where we are today, after 8 years of corporate controlled government.


Why do you assume I'm advocating weak people? and why are you afraid of China, since the Chinese have shown no propensity for belligerence against other nations.
I am afraid of authoritarian capitalism. They have over 1,000 labor camps, it's corporate nirvana for some.


LOL, "unpatriotic job outsourcing"? how about the "unpatriotic" economic policies that make outsourcing necessary to compete? I guess companies should just keep the jobs here and get put out of business by foreign competitors that don't have our over burdensome regulatory environment and taxation? would that be "patriotic" in your book?
There are many reasonable ways to stop or reduce outsourcing without harming competition. That's a strawman set by corps in order to manipulate Congress.


Nice fallacy there, however I prefer voluntary cooperation among individuals pursuing mutually agreed upon objectives instead of compulsory cooperation to meet the objectives selected by authoritarians.
Like the cooperation exhibited by Goldman Sachs as they, assisted by Bush's men, sacked most small banks in the US.


I understand, you prefer a strong government so that the liberty and property of others can be trampled as they are forced to comply with your and your partisan puppet masters vision of altruism, as long as your wants are serviced I guess the rest of the citizenry should just keep their mouths shut and go along with program.
The problem is that most of you guys are confusing liberty with a license to exploit the disadvantaged.

[olddude]

I agree 100%! I don't know how he got here, but I hope he stays.

He has a special knack for making libs look brain-damaged. :lmao2: :lmao2:


No, hell I don't even know how I got here, but you are right he does have a way with words.

I like his style, he's much more sophisticated and better versed than I. Me? I just say what I have on my mind regardless of how it rubs the other side, no PC in my family:thumbsup: . I guess you could say he more domesticated than a neanderthal like me but it's fun watching him destroy them with the words and thoughts he uses.

[nondual]

Believe me I tried but certain myopic hypocrites wouldn't listen back then either, it's a safe bet that between the two of us, I'm the one that's been consistent in my principles all along, especially given the fact that you apparently support leaders that are pursuing the same policies as President Gunslingin' Cowboy did.
That's why Obama wants to let Bush's tax cuts expire, as set by Republicans ten years ago. I knew it! :D


It's baffling how those that claim to be anti-war suddenly are okay with it as soon as the warmongers in charge have a letter they like behind their names.
As far as I know, those that claim to be anti-war are still anti-war. Didn't you see the last voting on war funding? Dems opposed to war funding is now on the triple digits, a sixty percent increase.

[nondual]

She is absolutely deplorable.
She is lovely. Intelligent women turn me on. :D

[nondual]

It's fairly cute that you think that where we found ourselves in 2008 was as bad as things could possibly get, cute and sad.

Once upon a time there was a land called the Wiemar Republic, perhaps you've heard what happened to it?
I know. That's where we were heading.

[ROOK]

I know altruism when I see it.

Of course and I'd imagine you find it most often when looking in the mirror.


I was just making a question. No reason to be annoyed, or is it?

You give yourself far too much credit by assuming that anything you say could annoy me in the slightest.


Right, but one must bring more satisfaction that the other.

Really, why must it? the reality is that one is most often the best enabler of the other, perhaps someday that will occur to you.


No one that I know of is calling for unlimited government, but there needs to be a balance, a middle point.

Yes it's called the constitution, perhaps you've heard of it?


Look at where we are today, after 8 years of corporate controlled government.

:lmao2: EIGHT YEARS????? greetings Mr. Van Winkle I didn't recognize you at first.


I am afraid of authoritarian capitalism.

Then you're afraid of something that doesn't exist, capitalism is an economic system based on the free exchange of individuals under mutually agreed upon terms. Perhaps you'll let us all know when those "authoritarian capitalists" kick down your front door and throw you in jail for not agreeing to freely exchange with them under terms acceptable to both you and they, K?


There are many reasonable ways to stop or reduce outsourcing without harming competition. That's a strawman set by corps in order to manipulate Congress.

Name one.


Like the cooperation exhibited by Goldman Sachs as they, assisted by Bush's men, sacked most small banks in the US.

....and continue to do under the current administration with renewed vigor, don't look now but your hypocrisy is showing again.


The problem is that most of you guys are confusing liberty with a license to exploit the disadvantaged.
No, the "problem" here is that you don't understand that "us guys" idea of individual liberty doesn't include a license to violate the liberty of others and instead are perfectly fine running rough shod over anybody else's liberty using government force as long as you get your way.

[nondual]

There is nothing that resembles capitalism that was the cause of all this misery. unless 9/11 is a new kind of capitalism that has just come on the scene. Also in the banking and insurance industry falling on it's face didn't have much to do with capitalism either, the lack there of did. You gubment caused this mess by making the banks write all those loans to people that could not afford them did.

Slicks recession, and lack of proper response to the many terrorist acts that were waged against us that led up to 9/11 and the damage that this caused to our banking system on top of several natural disasters that put further pressure on our already stretched to the max financial system DID.

Bush had a giant pile of shit handed to him and he dealt with it. You can argue weather we should have went to war all day long. I think it was the right response and so did just about ever member of congress at the time. A demoCrit controlled congress gave the go ahead to do what was necessary to get control of things in the middle east.

The tax cuts did help keep what was left of a stalling economy going. No one knows what would have happened if we had not cut the tax rates but my guess is that the economy would have tanked sooner than it did. By then the demoCrits controlled the check book and the spending really started.

Bush did some dumb shit and let the demoCrits get away with a lot of stuff he should have used his veto pen on but he had men in the field and they were being used as pawns for the demoCrits. You sign off on this and we will fund your war....for now.
What you are describing is authoritarian capitalism, which is what corporations seem to love. That's why we can't allow corps to take over our government. Is good to have them, but we can't give them the reins.

[nondual]

And I hope he keeps up the good work. Right now, he's running eight points behind his opponent.

http://www.orlandopoliticalpress.com/2010/07/26/zogby-todd-long-outpolls-grayson-in-district-8/
I know. In the 8th district.

[MintJulep]

I know. In the 8th district.:confused:

You do realize District 8 is the district of voters eligible to vote in this election, no? The entire state of Florida doesn't vote for that election, only District 8.

[nondual]

Really, why must it? the reality is that one is most often the best enabler of the other, perhaps someday that will occur to you.
Hmmm... others would say money is the root to all evil.


:lmao2: EIGHT YEARS????? greetings Mr. Van Winkle I didn't recognize you at first.
During Clinton, we had a nice balance between corporate power and government power. We were ALL moving up, not just a few.


Then you're afraid of something that doesn't exist, capitalism is an economic system based on the free exchange of individuals under mutually agreed upon terms.
You may fool others, but not me.


Name one.
One option is to provide a new temporary tax credit to companies that add local jobs. The proposal is that, during 2009 and 2010, existing businesses will receive a US$3,000 refundable tax credit for each additional full-time employee hired in the United States.

Closing tax loopholes and eliminating government subsidies for companies that outsource offshore was one of President Obama’s strongest campaign messages. But, an initiative to reform a tax system that has been around since the 1900s could turn into a massive undertaking fraught with policy and legal headaches.

...stimulus packages aimed at refurbishing aging infrastructure and by “putting Americans to work in new jobs that pay well and can’t be outsourced – jobs building solar panels and wind turbines; constructing fuel-efficient cars and building; and developing the new energy technologies that will lead to even more jobs, more savings and a cleaner, safer planet in the bargain.

...a rapid ramping-up of university research and education in science and technology.

...combination of tax re-structuring, stimulus initiatives and education reform.

Will these efforts “stop” outsourcing? Nope. But, they will change the playing-field.

http://www.the-outsourcing.com/feature/Issue10/obama.html


....and continue to do under the current administration with renewed vigor, don't look now but your hypocrisy is showing again.
Obama tried his best. Now, who were the filibusters?


No, the "problem" here is that you don't understand that "us guys" idea of individual liberty doesn't include a license to violate the liberty of others and instead are perfectly fine running rough shod over anybody else's liberty using government force as long as you get your way.
Who is forcing you to do anything? Or, are you referring to paying taxes?

Don't want to pay taxes?

[nondual]

:confused:

You do realize District 8 is the district of voters eligible to vote in this election, no? The entire state of Florida doesn't vote for that election, only District 8.
That's what I just said.

[MintJulep]

That's what I just said.Then why did you say this?

Alan Grayson is doing better than ever.

[ROOK]

Hmmm... others would say money is the root to all evil.

Only foolish people that don't understand what money really is (*hint: it's just a medium of exchange), it's like saying "food is the root to all evil" or "housing is the root to all evil" ...........


During Clinton, we had a nice balance between corporate power and government power. We were ALL moving up, not just a few.

Please tell me you're not serious, corporate-government integration was alive and well during the Clinton Administration as was the military-industrial complex.


You may fool others, but not me.

Of course, You're way too smart to be fooled by anything as mundane as facts.


One option is to provide a new temporary tax credit to companies that add local jobs. The proposal is that, during 2009 and 2010, existing businesses will receive a US$3,000 refundable tax credit for each additional full-time employee hired in the United States.

What about those companies that cannot or choose not to "add local jobs" and thus are obliged to subsidize their competitors, doesn't that hurt their ability to compete ?


Closing tax loopholes and eliminating government subsidies for companies that outsource offshore was one of President Obama’s strongest campaign messages. But, an initiative to reform a tax system that has been around since the 1900s could turn into a massive undertaking fraught with policy and legal headaches.

Again you're forcing one group to subsidize another group and thus are interfering with competition.


...stimulus packages aimed at refurbishing aging infrastructure and by “putting Americans to work in new jobs that pay well and can’t be outsourced – jobs building solar panels and wind turbines; constructing fuel-efficient cars and building; and developing the new energy technologies that will lead to even more jobs, more savings and a cleaner, safer planet in the bargain.

More of the same, targeted subsidies by which one group benefits at the expense of others.


...a rapid ramping-up of university research and education in science and technology.

We already have some of the best universities in the world and American businesses still suffer from the need to ship jobs offshore to compete, what form of "ramping-up" would your proposal entail? and how it would it alleviate the need for businesses to find cheaper labor?


...combination of tax re-structuring, stimulus initiatives and education reform.

this of course is meaningless talking point garbage lacking any detail.


Will these efforts “stop” outsourcing? Nope. But, they will change the playing-field.

They sure will, by making the playing field less competitive.

So back to the original point ...

There are many reasonable ways to stop or reduce outsourcing without harming competition. That's a strawman set by corps in order to manipulate Congress.

Name One, so far you're batting ZERO.


Obama tried his best. Now, who were the filibusters?

Excuses, excuses... you should apply for a job as the apologist czar in this administration by all appearances you're well qualified for the post.


Who is forcing you to do anything? Or, are you referring to paying taxes?

Don't want to pay taxes?
You mean besides the plethora of regulation that federal government imposes upon me in my everyday life? How about the taxes I'm forced to pay to subsidize the wants of other people? How about the taxes I'm forced to pay to finance all the pet social causes that people like you come up with in seemingly never ending stream, why don't you and others like you start financing your own version of altruism and leave the property for the rest of the unwilling citizenry alone?

I've already explained to you what I expect from the federal government, perhaps you should go back and read it again.

[nondual]

When it comes to abusing free speech and "body counts" Beck has nothing on you people.
Here, watch this, you are going to love it.

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/03/19/jon-stewart-dedicates-an-entire-show-to-mocking-glenn-beck/

[nondual]

We already have some of the best universities in the world and American businesses still suffer from the need to ship jobs offshore to compete, what form of "ramping-up" would your proposal entail? and how it would it alleviate the need for businesses to find cheaper labor?
That's why Obama is working to expand the H-1B visa programme to bring high-level technology grads from India and other countries. But the outsourcing of innovation, research and development would still be a necessity. This is especially true in allied health services, human resources, engineering and pharmaceuticals.

http://www.the-outsourcing.com/feature/Issue10/obama.html


Name One, so far you're batting ZERO.
OK, there will be a loss in global competitiveness. Over the long run, though, the outsourcers who do best during the Obama years will be ones able to focus on strategic outcomes.

Integrated end-to-end solutions, build-operate-transfer, joint ventures and other sophisticated, flexible approaches based on alliance building are going to thrive; those based simply on “work transfer” won’t.

http://www.the-outsourcing.com/feature/Issue10/obama.html


You mean besides the plethora of regulation that federal government imposes upon me in my everyday life? How about the taxes I'm forced to pay to subsidize the wants of other people? How about the taxes I'm forced to pay to finance all the pet social causes that people like you come up with in seemingly never ending stream, why don't you and others like you start financing your own version of altruism and leave the property for the rest of the unwilling citizenry alone?
Never heard of a social contract?

[nondual]

Then why did you say this?
That's without Tea Party candidate Peg Dunmire.

[ROOK]

That's why Obama is working to expand the H-1B visa programme to bring high-level technology grads from India and other countries.

So you're contending that in order to solve the problem of American Business shipping jobs overseas it's a good idea to import foreign workers and give them jobs here?


Never heard of a social contract?
Given that Locke and Rousseau are two of my favorite philosophers, take a guess.

[nondual]

So you're contending that in order to solve the problem of American Business shipping jobs overseas it's a good idea to import foreign workers and give them jobs here?
Right, and I just said why.


Given that Locke and Rousseau are two of my favorite philosophers, take a guess.
And? Don't believe in it?

[olddude]

What you are describing is authoritarian capitalism, which is what corporations seem to love. That's why we can't allow corps to take over our government. Is good to have them, but we can't give them the reins.

HUH?? I see rickashay rabbit is at it again. :lmao2:

[ROOK]

.
And? Don't believe in it?
Yes of course that's what I mean when I say that two of the primary architects of social contract theory are among my favorite philosophers, no offense but I'm beginning to suspect that God put your brain in backwards.

[nondual]

Yes of course that's what I mean when I say that two of the primary architects of social contract theory are among my favorite philosophers, no offense but I'm beginning to suspect that God put your brain in backwards.
Things you say suggest the opposite.

[ROOK]

Things you say suggest the opposite.

............Such as?

[nondual]

............Such as?
Such as eliminating a host of social programs.

[ROOK]

Such as eliminating a host of social programs.

Social contract theory has nothing to do with "social programs" but of course you already knew that right?

Strike One, please feel free to take another swing.

Or perhaps you'd like to do some actual research on what social contract theory is and how it relates to our constitutional republic before you engage in an attempt to discuss it, Allow me to be of assistance in this regard.

http://www.constitution.org/soclcont.htm

Once you're done with this cursory examination of the topic you might want to pick up a copy of these most excellent works (and of course read them with an open mind):

Second Treatise of Government by John Locke (http://www.amazon.com/Second-Treatise-Government-John-Locke/dp/1153737493/ref=sr_1_13?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280675626&sr=1-13)

And

The Social Contract by Jean-Jacques Rousseau (http://www.amazon.com/Social-Contract-Jean-Jacques-Rousseau/dp/1151442348/ref=sr_1_23?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280675842&sr=1-23)

Fair waring though the truth of the matter will not support your preconceived world view.

Alternatively you could just proceed with making up the meaning of social contract as you go along. :dunno:

[nondual]

Social contract theory has nothing to do with "social programs" but of course you already knew that right?
[social contract] ...can also be thought of as an agreement by the governed on a set of rules by which they are governed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

You don't seem to be in agreement, that's all. Seems like your moto is -- me, myself and I. Living a la Ayn Rand. But I find it difficult to see how you can pursue that single goal without ever infringing upon another’s right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Or perhaps you'd like to do some actual research on what social contract theory is and how it relates to our constitutional republic before you engage in an attempt to discuss it, Allow me to be of assistance in this regard.

http://www.constitution.org/soclcont.htm

Once you're done with this cursory examination of the topic you might want to pick up a copy of these most excellent works (and of course read them with an open mind):

Second Treatise of Government by John Locke (http://www.amazon.com/Second-Treatise-Government-John-Locke/dp/1153737493/ref=sr_1_13?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280675626&sr=1-13)

And

The Social Contract by Jean-Jacques Rousseau (http://www.amazon.com/Social-Contract-Jean-Jacques-Rousseau/dp/1151442348/ref=sr_1_23?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280675842&sr=1-23)
I rather spend my time with something more contemporaneous, thank you. Something to do with the Philosophy of Science. Critics say that Leon Lederman's "The god Particle" is pretty good.

I firmly believe that one must first understand the relationships between matter, space, and being, before making a decision about which socio-political system to support.

[ROOK]

I rather spend my time with something more contemporaneous, thank you. Something to do with the Philosophy of Science. Critics say that Leon Lederman's "The god Particle" is pretty good.


What a surprise, once again you display the trait that has resulted in your own manifest ignorance, namely a stubborn refusal to read anything that doesn't support your preconceived opinions (in fact it's dubious whether you've even bothered to read the work you cited, since it deals with the completely unrelated subject of particle physics not social contract theory). It's clear that you have no idea what social contract is let alone how it relates to the topic at hand and your refusal to seek the truth of the matter even though I was gracious enough to point you to authoritative sources on the subject leaves little for us to discuss on the topic (since I've found speaking to logic proof brick walls an unrewarding practice).

As I have said to you before ..

May the chains you have chosen rest lightly upon you.

[Moby]

So you're contending that in order to solve the problem of American Business shipping jobs overseas it's a good idea to import foreign workers and give them jobs here?
Americans aren't getting degrees in science, math and high tech at the same levels they were in previous decades. If the USA is going to continue to be a technology leader we have 2 choices.

1. We find a way to encourage more Americans to get high tech. math and science degrees.
2. We bring them in from other countries.

After all one of the great economic boosters in our country is that we have a history of taking the best and brightest from other countries and allow them to grow, build businesses and help US based businesses grow.

Those without some sense of risk taking and education usually don't get H1Bs.

[nondual]

What a surprise, once again you display the trait that has resulted in your own manifest ignorance, namely a stubborn refusal to read anything that doesn't support your preconceived opinions (in fact it's dubious whether you've even bothered to read the work you cited, since it deals with the completely unrelated subject of particle physics not social contract theory).
I haven't read "The God Particle", that was clear in my post. But I have read many other books related to the subject. And, of course it isn't about the 'social contract', but as I just told you, I first need to understand other matters besides political sciences before deciding which political system is right. To this moment, the way I see, each one of us must work in unison if we are to inhabit this planet for the next thousand years. We must all follow a common goal, i.e., the long term survival of the species. We can't all be pulling in different ways. As Nature's top product, is it our responsibility, no one else's.


It's clear that you have no idea what social contract is let alone how it relates to the topic at hand and your refusal to seek the truth of the matter even though I was gracious enough to point you to authoritative sources on the subject leaves little for us to discuss on the topic (since I've found speaking to logic proof brick walls an unrewarding practice).
Nothing wrong with Wikipedia for a short and concise summary.


As I have said to you before ..

May the chains you have chosen rest lightly upon you.
Indeed.

[ROOK]

Americans aren't getting degrees in science, math and high tech at the same levels they were in previous decades. If the USA is going to continue to be a technology leader we have 2 choices.

1. We find a way to encourage more Americans to get high tech. math and science degrees.
2. We bring them in from other countries.

After all one of the great economic boosters in our country is that we have a history of taking the best and brightest from other countries and allow them to grow, build businesses and help US based businesses grow.

Those without some sense of risk taking and education usually don't get H1Bs.

I don't disagree with those assertions however the topic was how to stem the flow of American jobs to foreign countries which is driven by the competitive advantage of doing so (primarily: lower labor prices, less restrictive regulatory framework, lower tax burden) and nondual was attempting (unsuccessfully) to offer up proposals that would achieve the objective without hurting competition.

[Moby]

Also in the banking and insurance industry falling on it's face didn't have much to do with capitalism either, the lack there of did. You gubment caused this mess by making the banks write all those loans to people that could not afford them did.
Wow! I'm shocked at how misinformed you are on this subject.

According the FDIC about 15% of all sub-prime loans fell under institutions that were involved with the CRA. That means that 85% of the sub-prime loans were freely given based on market demand (capitalism). If that many were given out based on capitalistic aspects then it would appear that those 15% of loans that fell into CRA institutions that many of them would have been given with the same capitalistic ideas.

A new market was created that allowed the sale of mortgage insurance making it more profitable to have loans fail than it was to have them paid. That is unregulated capitalism my friend. That is not government forcing businesses to give loans.

As an old dude, you should know this.