PDA

View Full Version : Chavez "communes" stoke Venezuela democracy debate


Citizen
07-17-2010, 02:21 AM
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE66E7E420100715

(Reuters) - Tucked into forested hills in southwest Caracas, a red-brick housing complex for the poor is a testing ground for Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's latest step to build socialism in the Latin American oil producer.

The phalanx of simple five-storey apartment blocks, some still being built, anchors the "Cacique Tiuna Commune". This is one of a network of "socialist communes" that Chavez and his supporters want to extend across the nation in a political and legislative offensive to dismantle "bourgeois" capitalism.

Not surprisingly in a country whose politics is as flammable as gasoline, the project enshrined in a package of "power to the people" laws is stoking a political firestorm.

Fueling the political debate is the proximity of legislative elections on September 26.

The government says the communes will help end poverty. But furious opponents, who already denounce Chavez as a repressive autocrat, say the initiative heralds outright communism in Venezuela and so violates its pluralist constitution.

"A barrier is being crossed ... we're passing from Chavez's tropical socialism to open and glaring communism," says Emilio Grateron, mayor of Chacao, an opposition stronghold entrenched in a more wealthy eastern neighborhood of Caracas.

Displaying colorful murals of Venezuela's 19th century independence hero Simon Bolivar, and one of Argentine guerrilla legend Ernesto "Che" Guevara, the 2,220-inhabitant Cacique Tiuna Commune is conceived as a showcase "socialist" community among the dirt-poor hilltop slums that hem in the capital.

Chavez and the laws' promoters deny the communes project is a bid to railroad the country into Soviet- or Cuban-style Marxism. They say the legislation is compatible with the 1999 Constitution and follows socialist goals of ending decades of inequality in Venezuela and giving more say to the poor in the running of their own lives and that of the country.

"We're headed for socialism here, I haven't deceived anyone," the combative Venezuelan leader told his ruling PSUV party in a meeting this week. He blasted local Roman Catholic bishops who have criticized the communes program, calling them "troglodytes" and "fascists".

Chavez says the bishops and business "oligarchs", media tycoons and foreign "imperialists" who populate his full pantheon of ideological foes are misrepresenting the communes project as a pretext to destabilize his government.

The former soldier survived a brief coup in 2002. Opponents say he is conjuring up fake threats to throw a smokescreen over his failure to turn around the deteriorating economy and put a brake on rampant violent crime.

In the upcoming elections, opponents are expected to dent the National Assembly majority of Chavez's PSUV, which has been shaken by a scandal over the discovery of thousands of tonnes of rotten government-managed foodstuffs and polls showing weak public backing for more socialism and expropriations.

Chavez is still popular in his 11th year of rule, but his support is under strain as the economy slumps. It contracted 5.8 percent in the first quarter of this year and inflation is persistently high at an annualized rate of 31 percent in June.

FRESH ASSAULT ON PRIVATE PROPERTY?

Chavez's searing leftist rhetoric and his investor-scalding track record of strategic oil, industry and mining nationalizations have made him an anti-capitalist and anti-U.S. standard bearer in Latin America and the world.

The largely pro-Chavez National Assembly has initially approved the communes bill and some related laws. A second final approval is pending, and supporters say they hope this can happen before the elections.

"We're talking about government by the people," said Ulises Daal, a pro-Chavez parliament deputy and one of the main promoters of the project. He says the legislative plan to set up self-sustaining, self-governing "socialist communes" builds on the existence of some 36,000 Chavez-inspired "communal councils" that already dot the country.

Daal said 214 communes were already "under construction". Some have introduced barter markets and their own currencies.

Grateron and other opposition mayors have launched a noisy counter-offensive. They say Chavez is trying to force through by law a shift to all-out socialism he failed to introduce in a 2007 constitutional referendum that he narrowly lost, the only nationwide ballot he has not won.

Opponents single out the Communes Law's repeated references to "social" and "collective" ownership.

"It's a clear orientation toward the reduction and disappearance of private property," said Noel Alvarez, president of the Fedecamaras private business group.

However, the Communes Law text does say Venezuelans can "possess, use and enjoy individual and family property and patrimony", and Daal insisted that private property remained unaffected by the legislation and was guaranteed.

IDEOLOGY, OR APATHY

Neither ideological nor productive fervor were much visible at the Cacique Tiuna Commune, which boasts a plastics plant, a vegetable garden, a "socialist" carpentry shop and a plant nursery.

During a visit last week, the plastics plant was idled, the irrigated garden was awaiting "refinancing" to start and at the carpentry shop only a handful of laborers worked under the stern gaze of a mural depicting the historic Indian chief Tiuna after which the commune is named.

"The Comandante (Chavez) wants this to be a showcase community," said Yamilet Ramirez, the Commune's spokesperson. "The idea is that it should be self-supporting."

But the Cacique Tiuna commune seemed some way off its intended goal as a self-sustaining, self-governing community.

"People don't seem enthusiastic, they don't want to participate, I don't know why, since it's for them," said the head of the carpentry shop, Alexis Valdiviezo.

He himself did not have an apartment in the commune but was brought in six months ago by the Basic Industry Ministry to oversee the creation of a "socialist" carpentry network.

"I'm living in a hotel," said Valdiviezo, who said he had been promised an apartment in the commune by Chavez.

But for many of the commune inhabitants, the apartments, built with a primary school, a state MERCAL grocery and a soon-to-be opened high school, represent a huge improvement on their previous slum accommodation in hilltop shanties.

"We like it, of course ... this benefits all the people," said Ines Herrera, who works as a cleaner at the primary school. "There is a bit of apathy, but that's normal".

"No one here is shouting about Marx or Lenin," said Ramirez.

"FRONTIER OF CHAOS"

In the same way that Venezuela's oil income has bankrolled Chavez's socio-political projects over the last few years, a host of government ministries and their budgets are clearly heavily engaged in supporting the emerging communes.

A clause of the Communes Law stipulates that existing state governorships and municipal mayorships should make funds available to finance projects for the communes. This has led to worries by opposition mayors that the new structures will monopolize funds, accompanied by political discrimination.

The Commune Ministry's own information sheet on the Cacique Tiuna community notes among its weaknesses: "There were commune members who hold an ideology opposed to the government".

The legislation foresees each commune having its own parliament, elected in open assemblies, and a five-member council to ensure the execution of decisions taken. A Communal Bank, and communal justice system will also be created.

Critics say the creation of these parallel systems alongside existing state and local structures will generate confusion. "It's the frontier of chaos," Grateron said.

Trinnity
07-17-2010, 11:04 AM
Well, since Liberation Theology originated in S. America..............Geez, no wonder Chavez and Obama are such good buddies. Deep down, (just below the surface) they have a lot in common.

mrmeangenes
07-17-2010, 12:08 PM
Well, since Liberation Theology originated in S. America..............Geez, no wonder Chavez and Obama are such good buddies. Deep down, (just below the surface) they have a lot in common.

May we assume you have something beside flatulent non sequiturs and raw calumny to back up your remarkable comment ?

Bill Cosby
07-17-2010, 01:29 PM
Oh the evil.............. http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CD7BK591L._SL160_SS160_.jpg

serum114
07-17-2010, 01:46 PM
May we assume you have something beside flatulent non sequiturs and raw calumny to back up your remarkable comment ?

If it did it would probably lay deep down just below the surface.

Trinnity
07-17-2010, 05:46 PM
May we assume you have something beside flatulent non sequiturs and raw calumny to back up your remarkable comment ?This is no secret. Black Liberation Theology -the American incarnation of the S American Marxist load of crap - is what is taught in Rev Wright's Church.

Obama's Church of 20+ years. The reverend who married him, and baptized his children.

Feel free to research it. There's plenty of info on it and it's founder. He had to deny he'd been listening to Wright's sermons all those years to escape the taint. But birds of a feather, do "flock" together.

If you're gonna be a devotee of a man who believes in Marxist Revolutionary ideology, then wear your Che Guevara t-shirt proudly, or wise up.
You should have already known about it if you truly support Obama. Or you're just another sucker of his.

MintJulep
07-17-2010, 06:23 PM
This is no secret. Black Liberation Theology -the American incarnation of the S American Marxist load of crap - is what is taught in Rev Wright's Church.

Obama's Church of 20+ years. The reverend who married him, and baptized his children.

Feel free to research it. There's plenty of info on it and it's founder. He had to deny he'd been listening to Wright's sermons all those years to escape the taint. But birds of a feather, do "flock" together.

If you're gonna be a devotee of a man who believes in Marxist Revolutionary ideology, then wear your Che Guevara t-shirt proudly, or wise up.
You should have already known about it if you truly support Obama. Or you're just another sucker of his. :thumbsup:

Facts are stubborn things.

Citizen
07-17-2010, 07:14 PM
Oh the evil.............. http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CD7BK591L._SL160_SS160_.jpg

What's that I can barely see it? http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww316/raygunronica/squint.jpg

Pat
07-17-2010, 08:49 PM
May we assume you have something beside flatulent non sequiturs and raw calumny to back up your remarkable comment ?
Recent history.
Did you sleep through the last 4 years?

Trinnity
07-17-2010, 09:11 PM
Well, we're all here right now, except Minty. Meangenes, is that all ya got?

Trinnity
07-17-2010, 10:01 PM
I see you have been on the site all this time, and you still have no response to defend your idol; this false leader who has no loyalty to the Constitution.

Not gonna wait on you any longer, this evening.
Enjoy your Marxist Utopian dreams. Dreams, because they will never be realized.

nondual
07-19-2010, 09:37 AM
This is no secret. Black Liberation Theology -the American incarnation of the S American Marxist load of crap - is what is taught in Rev Wright's Church.

Obama's Church of 20+ years. The reverend who married him, and baptized his children.

Feel free to research it. There's plenty of info on it and it's founder. He had to deny he'd been listening to Wright's sermons all those years to escape the taint. But birds of a feather, do "flock" together.

If you're gonna be a devotee of a man who believes in Marxist Revolutionary ideology, then wear your Che Guevara t-shirt proudly, or wise up.
You should have already known about it if you truly support Obama. Or you're just another sucker of his.
At least Obama believes in elections, Chavez and the Teabaggers obviously don't.

MintJulep
07-19-2010, 10:41 AM
At least Obama believes in elections, Chavez and the Teabaggers obviously don't.Right. He "believes" in elections all right, see Seestak, Romanoff, New Black Panthers, ACORN. :lmao2:

nondual
07-19-2010, 12:06 PM
Right. He "believes" in elections all right, see Seestak, Romanoff, New Black Panthers, ACORN. :lmao2:
As if Obama controlled each one of those institutions... this isn't a Monarchy.

Trinnity
07-19-2010, 06:49 PM
At least Obama believes in elections, Chavez and the Teabaggers obviously don't.Your sexual slur is tacky, sir.

It's a baseless accusation to claim Tea Party members don't believe in elections.
Black Liberation Theology and it's "social justice" agenda is undeniably tied to Obama's core belief system. You didn't even try to deny it. Additionally, his decision to drop prosecution of the Black Panther voter intimidation case is a clear signal he intends to apply the law in favor of Blacks and against Whites. Voter intimidation is not a concern to him, in this case, though it should be.

These demonstrations of his positions on these issues indicate, clearly, he doesn't have respect for the election process, only a concern for his part in being elected and re-elected.
It should be noted, also, that it is now coming to light that he played dirty tricks to undermine Hillary's bid for the nomination.

THAT IS NOT A MAN WHO CARES ABOUT THE INTEGRITY OF ELECTIONS.

Any one of these items in an indication of his lack of respect for the election process. In combination, they scream of corruption.

Keep on cheerleading for a man who cares not for your liberties, rights, or race - if you are other than Black.
When you lose them, you'll have your part in it to blame. He can only harm America if we let him.

I think YOU would support him even to that length, - and applaud him for it.

And let me remind you, that after Hitler came to power, he suspended elections.
Obama could easily declare a national emergency; racial, fiscal, borders, internet, terrorism - take your pick - and do the same.

Bill Cosby
07-19-2010, 06:58 PM
And let me remind you, that after Hitler came to power, he suspended elections.
Obama could easily declare a national emergency; racial, fiscal, borders, internet, terrorism - take your pick - and do the samehttp://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj168/iisbranndon/scare.jpg.


Well the sky has not fallen yet..... COuld, if, blah blah blah.........

When bush was torturing,spying, subverting the constitution & sending off American men & women to fight for WMD & get one man nary a peep........

But now we gotta worry about this??? :lmao2:

Trinnity
07-19-2010, 07:09 PM
This is not about Bush, and you can't make it about Bush.

And yes, as long as you support him in ANYTHING he wants to do, you are part of the problem.

Bill Cosby
07-19-2010, 07:30 PM
This is not about Bush, and you can't make it about Bush.

And yes, as long as you support him in ANYTHING he wants to do, you are part of the problem.

Yea I know...................:lmao2:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa129/IMVU_Developer/blindersF.jpg


So when ppl said this about bush they were right then...............:hi:

Trinnity
07-19-2010, 07:45 PM
You don't even try to refute the facts. This is exactly why you've lost so many members to the other site. You belittle legitimate concerns BASED ON OBAMA'S ACTIONS.

He's turning America into a banana republic. He's behaving like a dictator who hasn't yet gained full control.

Keep defending the indefensible. Oh, wait - you can't, so you attack the messenger instead. The worse Obama gets, the more it rubs off on your character; or lack of it.

nondual
07-19-2010, 08:02 PM
You don't even try to refute the facts. This is exactly why you've lost so many members to the other site. You belittle legitimate concerns BASED ON OBAMA'S ACTIONS.

He's turning America into a banana republic. He's behaving like a dictator who hasn't yet gained full control.

Keep defending the indefensible. Oh, wait - you can't, so you attack the messenger instead. The worse Obama gets, the more it rubs off on your character; or lack of it.
Please back up your claims with facts or articles coming from reputable places.

Trinnity
07-19-2010, 08:50 PM
Please back up your claims with facts or articles coming from reputable places.All these things are common knowledge.
I won't do your homework for you. Sorry.

Bill Cosby
07-20-2010, 01:05 AM
You don't even try to refute the facts. This is exactly why you've lost so many members to the other site. You belittle legitimate concerns BASED ON OBAMA'S ACTIONS.

He's turning America into a banana republic. He's behaving like a dictator who hasn't yet gained full control.

Keep defending the indefensible. Oh, wait - you can't, so you attack the messenger instead. The worse Obama gets, the more it rubs off on your character; or lack of it.

legitimate concerns?? So the concerns ppl had about bush were not real?? Pls, he attacked two countries, spied on Americans & tortured ppl & those are not concerns?? But your imaginary "hates America" & his communist take over are real???

:lmao2: :lmao2:

If you like it so much there why you here???

CYA................:hi: