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Bill
09-13-2007, 01:31 AM
Artic ice was just measured at 20% TWENTY FREEKIN PERCENT smaller than the smallest measurement ever taken before.

This year - we lost 20% of the artic ice.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/09/11/arctic.ice.cover/index.html

Ice cover in the Arctic Ocean, long held to be an early warning of a changing climate, has shattered the all-time low record this summer, according to scientists from the National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder.

It is possible that Arctic sea ice could decline even further this year before the onset of winter.

Using satellite data and imagery, NSIDC now estimates the Arctic ice pack covers 4.24 million square kilometers (1.63 million square miles) -- equal to just less than half the size of the United States. This figure is about 20 percent less than the previous all-time low record of 5.32 million square kilometers (2.05 million square miles) set in September 2005

Mark Serreze, senior research scientist at NSIDC, termed the decline "astounding."

LadyMod at scam.com
09-13-2007, 07:05 AM
You know? I'll bet the Polar bear will do just fine. As will the other animals. Man, with his dependence on things like oil might not fare so well, despite being blessed with higher intelligence.

LM

Linkster
09-13-2007, 02:19 PM
Actually I believe the polar bear will be extinct within 10 years with the exception of a few zooed up animals - that 20% loss this year is an amazing change - was watching the USGS reporting on it and they were just as taken aback - this follows on their recent discovery that Greenland has lost an amazing amount as well - within the last 2 years.

As far as oil, this opens up huge underwater resources that the polar cap was hiding - and this ice melt at the polar cap doesnt contribute to water levels since its not land based - but does change the salinity of the sea water by a huge amount, and also puts 20% more moisture in the air which I saw NOAA is extremely concerned about.

Of course - the Russians will get all of the oil up there since they have already claimed it for their country - and no one else has disputed it.

Bill
09-13-2007, 03:36 PM
If there is significant to huge amounts of oil under the polar sea, it will put off the long emergency for enough years that I can just take a nice vacation for the last 30 years of my life.

It won't be cheap oil, but at least it will put off the peak.

Linkster
09-13-2007, 05:28 PM
I dont think it will help the "peak" since I believe it has already happened - probably right around 2004 for regular oil - and gas will occur in another 3 years
Based on what Cheney was putting out publicly when he was the CEO of Haliburton back in 1999, the US peaked back in the 70s - with worldwide reserves-to-demand ratios (and recent discoveries that the Saudis and Kuwait overestimated their reserves by a total of around 250 bbl) peaking back in 2004 - and only because of the pulling back we had during the 70s in the US when we reduced our consumption dramatically

With the consumption ratios (from food to electronics - which all depend on oil in the long run) multiplying at the rates they are now - I would say its safe to say you will see the first worldwide oil emergency in Mexico within 3 years - followed closely by some other smaller countries. While I understand that some conspiricy theorists blame the recent cuilding of the huge detention camps in the US as something for martial law based on Bush and terrorist responses - Im almost positive it was more based on the oil crash that everyone knows is coming.

Cheney wrote a really good paper on it back in early 2001 - which described the world situation and the "oil grab wars" that would be coming - guess he knew more than most how soon :)

Marlboro
09-22-2007, 04:31 PM
Actually I believe the polar bear will be extinct within 10 years with the exception of a few zooed up animals - that 20% loss this year is an amazing change - was watching the USGS reporting on it and they were just as taken aback - this follows on their recent discovery that Greenland has lost an amazing amount as well - within the last 2 years.

As far as oil, this opens up huge underwater resources that the polar cap was hiding - and this ice melt at the polar cap doesnt contribute to water levels since its not land based - but does change the salinity of the sea water by a huge amount, and also puts 20% more moisture in the air which I saw NOAA is extremely concerned about.

Of course - the Russians will get all of the oil up there since they have already claimed it for their country - and no one else has disputed it.

Tell me where to start...someone needs to get on this stat?????? Nothing like a good dispute to get the blood running!!!!!

Cat slave
10-02-2007, 12:25 AM
Species come and species go and the survivors are the strongest and smartest
of their kind and find a way to adapt. Or they become extinct. Thats just the way it is. Whether we
can adapt remains to be seen since there are so many of us sucking up all
the resources of oil and natural gas...well, we still have coal, so maybe there
is hope for humans....ya think?

I feel sorry for the Polar bears....poor things!

Bill
10-02-2007, 03:18 AM
yep, species do come and go, but the top predators of any system tell you a lot about the health of the whole system, and when the top predators are dying, and we humans aren't directly killing them, that suggests the system is in desperate straits.

The bears are dying in part because the seals are dying, and the seals are dying because the fish are moving, because the fertile zone at the edge of the ice cap is shrinking, and the warmer water is killing the krill that everything eats.

And the krill of the arctic waters feed a lot of the rest of the oceans.

So, it's poor polar bears now, but what's killing them is threatening us, so it's poor humans too.

But, at least the dwindling ice caps will let us prospect for oil.

LadyMod at scam.com
10-02-2007, 09:33 AM
Oh but we don't have to eat salt water fish. Granted. But whose to say that what is hurting the ocean isn't coming from what's being dumped into the streambeds and rivers that empty out into it?

Ahhhh! Now it hits closer to home.

The only thing that will survive this is probably the insects, namely roaches. They even become immune to Raid.

.

anubis
10-04-2007, 08:56 PM
Okay, so, how about if the Planet says: I am sick of you humans and your abuse and taking me for granted with all that I have given you, such as TOTAL LIFE SUPPORT? So the Planet lets out one huge fart and several billion humans just die spontaneouly.
And not in the order of some of the last things to go in the dying gasp.
Lets get this straight: if anything is offensive to the Planet for very long it will be destroyed.
Human being happen to be the most dangerous and abusive creatures that have ever poplulated the planet.
Oh, yes... and a lot are just maintaining status-quo,, thinking it is cyclical or some "natural quirk", for instance that the Artic Ice Cap and the Greenland Ice Cap is melting and that in the morning the "good fairy" of some other beneficent thing will make it all better. Then we can all go back to just trashing the place with no concern or fear of consequence.
Just keep on and find out.
Only problem is, the ones who care and are trying to do something are going to be taken out by those that don't, which happens to be in the majority.

Linkster
10-04-2007, 09:17 PM
anubis - welcome - and I think that you might need to read some sarcasm into what most of us write - a lot of us are of the same mind as you - but we also realize that there are events that are already set in motion that far outweigh what is going to happen to the earth - and will have the exact same effects except on a shorter time-scale.

anubis
10-04-2007, 09:33 PM
Some times it is difficult to find humor in certain issues. "reading sarcasm into some issues implies that one is required to make something good out of what someone else has commented upon.
Then, this "sarcasm" is supposed to imply that one, if they find it appropriate is to be bought to laugh about the issue. Only laughter I see there might be here is perhaps something impinging upon "gallows-laughter".
The issue of Global Warming and what is occuring right now is nothing to be made light of.
It is really a Planetary emegency, right now. But all that is really being done is to observe the effects and perform studies. I don't see or hear any Presidental edicts or real statments of concern and trelling people what they can do and how this will have an effect in at least making it not as bad.
If you are implying that the "wheels are already set in motion", you are correct. It is like trying to stop a run-away train; put the brakes on and it stops several miles down the track - not immediately.
Well, that's true of that we are experiencing right now - the Planet is in crisis and if, by National Edicts [yes, plural] people were told emphatically that we must take sertain measures, it will tak probably several hundred years to change things.
But "band-aids" for the situation is the REAL SARCASM of the situation.
Thanks for taking notice, anyway.

Cat slave
10-05-2007, 02:06 AM
With all due respect, I think the earth would say: "here goes another hot flash"!
We are just a tiny blip on the screen of the universe and I think much too taken
with our supposed power and importance. It will be up to us to adapt to climate
change which will take place with or without us as demonstrated by core samples taken from the earth. Greenland might just be green again and if we
experience another pole shift not too much will matter then.

If nothing else look at the Hubble images and see how insignificant you feel
after that. Its very sobering....not that I need sobering up but you know what
I mean. On second thought, wheres the wine?

Bill
10-05-2007, 04:38 AM
I think we are major league screwed.

And we're top predators, just like the polar bears.

How screwed only time will tell.

asroc
10-05-2007, 08:35 AM
The polar bears should have instinctively aware of the powers of free market capitalism to solve all problems.

anubis
10-05-2007, 11:43 AM
Public Broadcasting Stations on television have been featuring documentaries and interesting material on the crisis circumstance of the planet.
Most recently was shown a team of scientist in Greenland that are looking at the situation and trying to "make sense" of what they are finding. The Ice Sheet that covers the continetn is melting. Shown were huge crevasses over a hundred feet wide and seemingly bottomless into which massive amount of water were visually pouring at that very moment. One of the comments was: "where is the water going - such an enormous volume! - it seems that this water is undermining the entire Ice Sheet. The whole thing could just 'slip' into the Ocean, all at once!"
The same action is occuring on the Artic Ice Shield. Polar Bears have been shown floudering in the 'mushy' ice that remains, bewildred - not the miles of soild material they were once used to accustomed to. Massive ice formations are collapsing into the sea.
How does losing the Polar Bears matter to humans? The Polar Bears control the Seal population, keeping the numbers down. If the Polar Bears aren't around, or are no longer in a position to catch the Seals at their breathing holes in the ice, then the Seal population will remain unchecked. More Seals means more fish that will be eaten. The North Atlantic is one of the currently remaining heaviest populated of food fish for humans and food off of other sea life for these fish. Also, the hatching and incubation ground for these food fishes.
As well, the so-called flood of Noah in the Bible - it is a historic documentation of an ancient innudation by water occurrence of the planet. It has been debated in recent times just exactly what there was to this "flooding" situation. Now, some have comcluded that it was caused by the Antartic Ice Sheet slipping into the sea all at once. Such a huge, massive amount of ice being introduced into the sea all at once can be alikened to if one has a fulld glass of water, then adds ice cubes to it. The water spill from the glass, as it has no other place to go. Same is the results of the Ice Sheet slipping into the water.
In these documentaries, maps have been shown of what is to be expected as a result of the ACTUAL rising water circumstance of not only global warming but globa; dimming. The scientist say that globa; dimming is presently masking the true ramifications of global warming. The map shows a great deal of the entire coastal areas of the U.S. as submerged - the entire state of Florida and Lousisana is gone. The Mississippi River is now a huge inland sea.
This is serious - not just a "hot-flash" from the planet.

Cat slave
10-05-2007, 11:59 AM
I dont argue that there is global warming/climate change. It is tragic for
many species and for life as we have known it. It has happened before and
it will happen again. Everything changes. The earth is alive and it is only
to be expected to change as it has before.

I would rather be living in a period when we are warming than when we are
going into another ice age. One of those little ones lasted into the 1800s
and it was bad.

I dont think going back to walking or horses (which I would love), burning
wood (which we do in the winter) and wiping the internal combustion engines
as Gore says we should would make one whit of difference as we cannot
control weather, volcanoes, earthquakes or pole shifts or another species
ending events by asteroids.

I wonder if the Mayan calendar is accurate? If so things were set in motion
long before any of us took a breath.

It saddens me greatly for the animals but look how many species of animals
have preceeded us through eons of time and we will adapt or perish. It is
out of our control and I think the issue has become a political tool for a
number of reasons.

I respect your concern for what is happening, I just dont see it as you do.
I see a much bigger picture in which we are tiny and pretty darn insignificant
in the great scheme of things.

anubis
10-05-2007, 05:14 PM
well, we will see. It isn't going to happen all at once - the ulta-catastorphic stuff. But there will be some major signs preceding the really bad times.
Think riding horse, burning wood? I doubt that those that are living then will get to participate in much of that.
At one time I did contracting work to perform home modification, improvements. I was contacted by a couple in a well to do neighborhood in regard to "hardening" and enhancing their Y2K survival facilities. What they were really doing [I gave free estimates for job consoltations} was "picking my brain" for free information, ideas. Pathetic! SO obviously wealthy yet so bankrupt... Anyhow, I thought when I viewed what they had established and intended to do into the future, all very ludicrous... They were to be somewhat alikened to kids that were camping out in the back yard. Not even a clue or an idea of what real crisis is all about.
Anyhow, my friend. I don't relish what is coming and I am of course the last to relish the idea of being a"doom-sayer". I really wish it was otherwise.
Yes, the Earth has went through changes before. Some, I have heard were of the catastrophic sort. Such as when a large Comet struck the Earth and there was years of darkness and disruption and the annihilation of a lot of species. Other such things - such as it is now believed that the Atlantic Ocean basin is the remnants of the planet where the results of our Satellite, the Moon was ripped from the planet. Wouldn't it have been nice to be around then?
But, yeah, the big BUT... during those times of long ago there were no humans of consequence burning hydrocarbon fuels and dumping pesticides and herbicides into the ditches, rivers and streams which flow into the ocean.
I am as a matter of leisure at times a fisherman. I recently acquired a copy of the state game and fish regulations. In the back is a rather extensive table that gives the names of the states lakes and relates how many pounds of fish should be consumed from these lakes for food each month, per person. It seems the largest amount is four pounds. Reason? Pesticide and Insectide contamination. The list goes on to indicate which pesticides are in each body of water and the ppm calculation. At least two of these lakes are sources of drinking water for the local populace. Problem with insecticides and pesticides is that you cannot filter them out or neutralize them. Any wonder of the high incidence of Cancers, especially of the Liver and the Spleen? How many people are aware of, on a first hand basis regarding these circumstances. Hardly none! They are all lulled into a state of false security because they believe that someone else is taking care of that.
We have a President now sitting in office that wont hestitate to spend several billion dolars each month to prosecute a losing cause war in a foreign land, using our taxpayers hard earned money. But how often do you hear any real serious or responsbile plans to address the crisis of the enviroment and the planet.
I wont be around for the really bad stuff, like the innudation of continential land mass due to more water being freed from solid into liquid state and the likes. If you are, say, around 25 years of age and will live [I don't know that I can say fortunate enough} to live to be 85-90 years of age, some things you will experience and have to deal with first hand will have never occured in your wildest dreams.
As I said though, the wheels are in motion now - too late. Humans are notorious for not caring to take responsibility or act until their backs are against the wall. But now, all that is left is to suffer the consequences.
Too bad that it cannot be otherwise. Who and how many will survive, if any. And, when it is over, what will they do and how will they look upon the future in regard to living differently and more responsbily than we have.
Who knows?
The Planet Earth is a living entity and as such, it is like any other thing, if something is offensive and troublesome, it will give sighns that it is reacting and has had enough. Failure to heed the warning signs - it will work out ways to get rid of the offenders. Isn't it a factual shame that the planet would be much better off without us. After all, what do we contribute to it and how much respect and appreciation to we pay? Answers: NONE and NONE and NONE.
Peace

Cat slave
10-05-2007, 05:30 PM
Great post!!

No, I wont be around in those days when things come to a tipping point, I
just hope whoever inherits whatever earth becomes will be better stewards
than we have been.

While I think we have little impact in the great scheme of things (whatever
that is!) I do think that we have not been kind to our planet which will come
back to bite us with polluted water, sick fish, new organisms that before
were held in check because they in their normal environment and so forth.
We should have clean water, clean air, safe food supply, which we have
screwed up royally on all counts. All this lessens our species ability to
adapt and be strong. Time will surely tell.

Again, a great post!