View Full Version : The Best Thing I've Read All Year
Scottbrown2012
05-15-2010, 03:26 PM
Kudos to this woman for having the guts to speak up!
Sunday, April 30, 2000
By SHARON UNDERWOOD
For the Valley News (White River Junction, VT)
Many letters have been sent to the Valley News concerning the homosexual menace in Vermont. I am the mother of a gay son and I've taken enough from you good people.
I'm tired of your foolish rhetoric about the "homosexual agenda" and your allegations that accepting homosexuality is the same thing as advocating sex with children. You are cruel and ignorant. You have been robbing me of the joys of motherhood ever since my children were tiny.
My firstborn son started suffering at the hands of the moral little thugs from your moral, upright families from the time he was in the first grade. He was physically and verbally abused from first grade straight through high school because he was perceived to be gay.
He never professed to be gay or had any association with anything gay, but he had the misfortune not to walk or have gestures like the other boys. He was called "fag" incessantly, starting when he was 6.
In high school, while your children were doing what kids that age should be doing, mine labored over a suicide note, drafting and redrafting it to be sure his family knew how much he loved them. My sobbing 17-year-old tore the heart out of me as he choked out that he just couldn't bear to continue living any longer, that he didn't want to be gay and that he couldn't face a life without dignity.
You have the audacity to talk about protecting families and children from the homosexual menace, while you yourselves tear apart families and drive children to despair. I don't know why my son is gay, but I do know that God didn't put him, and millions like him, on this Earth to give you someone to abuse. God gave you brains so that you could think, and it's about time you started doing that.
At the core of all your misguided beliefs is the belief that this could never happen to you, that there is some kind of subculture out there that people have chosen to join. The fact is that if it can happen to my family, it can happen to yours, and you won't get to choose. Whether it is genetic or whether something occurs during a critical time of fetal development, I don't know. I can only tell you with an absolute certainty that it is inborn.
If you want to tout your own morality, you'd best come up with something more substantive than your heterosexuality. You did nothing to earn it; it was given to you. If you disagree, I would be interested in hearing your story, because my own heterosexuality was a blessing I received with no effort whatsoever on my part. It is so woven into the very soul of me that nothing could ever change it. For those of you who reduce sexual orientation to a simple choice, a character issue, a bad habit or something that can be changed by a 10-step program, I'm puzzled. Are you saying that your own sexual orientation is nothing more than something you have chosen, that you could change it at will? If that's not the case, then why would you suggest that someone else can?
A popular theme in your letters is that Vermont has been infiltrated by outsiders. Both sides of my family have lived in Vermont for generations. I am heart and soul a Vermonter, so I'll thank you to stop saying that you are speaking for "true Vermonters."
You invoke the memory of the brave people who have fought on the battlefield for this great country, saying that they didn't give their lives so that the "homosexual agenda" could tear down the principles they died defending. My 83-year-old father fought in some of the most horrific battles of World War II, was wounded and awarded the Purple Heart.
He shakes his head in sadness at the life his grandson has had to live. He says he fought alongside homosexuals in those battles, that they did their part and bothered no one. One of his best friends in the service was gay, and he never knew it until the end, and when he did find out, it mattered not at all. That wasn't the measure of the man.
You religious folk just can't bear the thought that as my son emerges from the hell that was his childhood he might like to find a lifelong companion and have a measure of happiness. It offends your sensibilities that he should request the right to visit that companion in the hospital, to make medical decisions for him or to benefit from tax laws governing inheritance.
How dare he? you say. These outrageous requests would threaten the very existence of your family, would undermine the sanctity of marriage.
You use religion to abdicate your responsibility to be thinking human beings. There are vast numbers of religious people who find your attitudes repugnant. God is not for the privileged majority, and God knows my son has committed no sin.
The deep-thinking author of a letter to the April 12 Valley News who lectures about homosexual sin and tells us about "those of us who have been blessed with the benefits of a religious upbringing" asks: "What ever happened to the idea of striving . . . to be better human beings than we are?"
Indeed, sir, what ever happened to that?
Sharon Underwood's e-mail is: sundervt@hotmail.com. I had the chance to speak with her yesterday. Her son is doing fine now, the first in his family to graduate from college.
If you have friends who think Jesus would have been a Republican -- on the side of billionaire Pat Robertson, et al, in opposing Hate Crimes Legislation, opposing the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, and, yes, opposing Vermont's extension of economic benefits to same-sex couples -- please feel free to forward this column to as many of them as you like. Can't you just see it? Jesus arm-in-arm with the NRA trying to maintain the gun-show loophole? Stumping the Holy Land in favor of a massive tax cut for the rich, while opposing a hike in the minimum wage? Somehow, I think not.
Tomorrow: Back to Business. (Probably.)
http://www.andrewtobias.com/newcolumns/000504.html
Scottbrown2012
05-15-2010, 05:00 PM
As I suspected no responses. What can you say to something as powerful and from the heart as what that woman wrote? I doubt anyone that disagrees with her will say anything as doing so shows you for the narrowminded bigot you are.:thumbsup:
Hawkeye2j
05-15-2010, 05:16 PM
As I suspected no responses. What can you say to something as powerful and from the heart as what that woman wrote? I doubt anyone that disagrees with her will say anything as doing so shows you for the narrowminded bigot you are.:thumbsup:
Terrific letter. I wonder how many on this board actually read it.
Scottbrown2012
05-15-2010, 05:23 PM
Terrific letter. I wonder how many on this board actually read it.
I dont know honestly..there are like 15 reads so far but i bet many thought it was something else based on the title. It took alot of courage I bet for that lady to write that in such an open forum but i do believe it needed to be said and we need alot more like her to start speaking up. I seriously doubt that any of the more conservative ones on this board will actually saying anything...especially Binky who has made it known she is against anything homosexual in nature. To speak out against this woman would only paint them in a light they probably dont want to be painted in. I hope a few prove me wrong though.
Hawkeye2j
05-15-2010, 05:25 PM
The Right needs a group to hate. It justifies their existence.
The Right needs a group to hate. It justifies their existence.
The left needs somebody to scapegoat, it doesn't justify their position, but they don't care.
You have been robbing me of the joys of motherhood ever since my children were tiny.
I call bullshit.
Nobody on the planet has anything to do with her tiny children nor her not enjoying her motherhood.
Tiny children aren't homosexual, heterosexual, transsexual or any other type of sexual, they are tiny children.
Hawkeye2j
05-15-2010, 05:57 PM
The left needs somebody to scapegoat, it doesn't justify their position, but they don't care.
And just who is it we are scapegoating?
And just who is it we are scapegoating?
Did you read the article or not?
Scottbrown2012
05-15-2010, 06:10 PM
Did you read the article or not?
Thank you Pat for proving that some conservatives are dumb enough to actually argue against that woman...you have painted yourself in that unfavourable light I was talking about and OBVIOUSLY you heeded NOTHING that that woman had to say.
MintJulep
05-15-2010, 06:16 PM
She sounds angry and like she's looking for someone to blame, IMO.
Scottbrown2012
05-15-2010, 06:18 PM
She sounds angry and like she's looking for someone to blame, IMO.
It does not take away in my eyes from the fact that she spoke powerfully from her heart and is not trying to scapegoat anyone. What she speaks has a lot of truth to it whether you want to admit to it or not.
actually she may be angry but at the citizens of Vermont for thinking they speak for everyone when they dont and she may be angry at the intolerance towards people who some consider not "normal" or evil simply because they love someone of the same sex. In my eyes love has no boundaries and should never have them people love who they love for a reason and should not be judged for it.
MintJulep
05-15-2010, 06:33 PM
It does not take away in my eyes from the fact that she spoke powerfully from her heart and is not trying to scapegoat anyone. What she speaks has a lot of truth to it whether you want to admit to it or not.It reads to me like she is looking for someone to blame and has found a "villain", of sorts, to paint with her broad brush. Regardless of how "powerfully" she wrote it, the message is still one of blame. Just my take on it.
Thank you Pat for proving that some conservatives are dumb enough to actually argue against that woman...you have painted yourself in that unfavourable light I was talking about and OBVIOUSLY you heeded NOTHING that that woman had to say.
Please tell me who did anything to her tiny children, and how they did it.
Tiny children aren't homosexual, heterosexual, transsexual or any other type of sexual, they are tiny children.
Hawkeye2j
05-15-2010, 06:35 PM
Did you read the article or not?
First, it was a letter, not an article. And yes I read every word.
Hawkeye2j
05-15-2010, 06:37 PM
Don't bother Scott. These are cold, heartless people we are arguing with.
It does not take away in my eyes from the fact that she spoke powerfully from her heart and is not trying to scapegoat anyone. What she speaks has a lot of truth to it whether you want to admit to it or not.
actually she may be angry but at the citizens of Vermont for thinking they speak for everyone when they dont and she may be angry at the intolerance towards people who some consider not "normal" or evil simply because they love someone of the same sex. In my eyes love has no boundaries and should never have them people love who they love for a reason and should not be judged for it.
yeah, some six year olds ostracized her son, those bastards!
Scottbrown2012
05-15-2010, 06:38 PM
It reads to me like she is looking for someone to blame and has found a "villain", of sorts, to paint with her broad brush. Regardless of how "powerfully" she wrote it, the message is still one of blame. Just my take on it.
I modified it and added more after you replied, feel free to go back and re read if you so choose, if not oh well.
First, it was a letter, not an article. And yes I read every word.
So, who is this mysterious "you" and "they" she keeps referencing?
Perhaps "they" are the scapegoat.
Scottbrown2012
05-15-2010, 06:40 PM
yeah, some six year olds ostracized her son, those bastards!
did you read the whole letter? he is in college now and she was telling the whole story of what he went through.
Scottbrown2012
05-15-2010, 06:42 PM
So, who is this mysterious "you" and "they" she keeps referencing?
Perhaps "they" are the scapegoat.
they are the people of vermont that she is angry with and those in general with intolerance towards what some call "alternative " lifestyles
did you read the whole letter? he is in college now and she was telling the whole story of what he went through.
This was the first part,
You have been robbing me of the joys of motherhood ever since my children were tiny.
My firstborn son started suffering at the hands of the moral little thugs from your moral, upright families from the time he was in the first grade.
So it seems she is upset at 6 year olds for depriving her of the joy of motherhood.
MintJulep
05-15-2010, 06:47 PM
they are the people of vermont that she is angry with and those in general with intolerance towards what some call "alternative " lifestylesYet she references "Republicans" at the end. Frankly, I resent people who put everyone in a tiny little box and assign positions to them. It's ignorant.
Hawkeye2j
05-15-2010, 06:49 PM
This was the first part,
So it seems she is upset at 6 year olds for depriving her of the joy of motherhood.
She said they treated her young child badly because he talked and walked and gestured differently. It makes sense.
You know something ScottBrown, the only problem I have with mothers of homosexuals is their incessant whining about how life isn't fair.
News flash, life isn't fair to anybody regardless of their sexuality.
MintJulep
05-15-2010, 06:53 PM
She said they treated her young child badly because he talked and walked and gestured differently. It makes sense.Newsflash: kids can be cruel. I'm sure there are some fat kids and kids with buck teeth equally traumatized in their childhood.
This was the first part,
So it seems she is upset at 6 year olds for depriving her of the joy of motherhood.
She said they treated her young child badly because he talked and walked and gestured differently. It makes sense.
Please tell me how that had anything to do with her enjoying motherhood.
Geez, and Moby calls me insane.......
Newsflash: kids can be cruel. I'm sure there are some fat kids and kids with buck teeth equally traumatized in their childhood.
But were their mothers deprived of the joy of motherhood because of that?
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 06:57 PM
But were their mothers deprived of the joy of motherhood because of that?
Have any kids, Pat?
MintJulep
05-15-2010, 07:02 PM
But were their mothers deprived of the joy of motherhood because of that?Only if they didn't accept and love them for who they are.
Have any kids, Pat?
Two,
you?
extra words just to make the post go through.
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:03 PM
Only if they didn't accept and love them for who they are.
Have any kids, Mint?
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:03 PM
Two,
you?
extra words just to make the post go through.
Yes, two grown sons. Are you a mother or a father?
MintJulep
05-15-2010, 07:03 PM
Have any kids, Mint?Yes. Three.
Only if they didn't accept and love them for who they are.
We have a winner. :thumbsup:
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:04 PM
Yes. Three.
No you don't. You have no children.
Yes, two grown sons. Are you a mother or a father?
I'm a parent.
Gender doesn't matter.
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:05 PM
I'm a parent.
Gender doesn't matter.
Yes it does. Significantly.
Have any kids, Pat?
Are you going to ask the OP if they have kids?
I'm curious as to why you think that matters.
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:08 PM
Are you going to ask the OP if they have kids?
I'm curious as to why you think that matters.
It matters because of the comments you've posted. You think it doesn't. So, if it's so insignificant, answer the question: are you a mother or a father?
MintJulep
05-15-2010, 07:08 PM
No you don't. You have no children.Then why would you ask?
The only reason a mother would be deprived of enjoying her own motherhood with a gay, fat, buck tooth child is if she did not accept them and love them for who they are.
Yes it does. Significantly.
Would a sex change operation change the way somebody parents?
I don't think so.
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:09 PM
Then why would you ask?
The only reason a mother would be deprived of enjoying her own motherhood with a gay, fat, buck tooth child is if she did not accept them and love them for who they are.
Having no children of your own, you have zero authority in terms of speaking about motherhood or parenthood. Zero.
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:10 PM
Would a sex change operation change the way somebody parents?
I don't think so.
That's not the issue and I think you already know that. Why are you hiding your gender? The roles of parents vary according to gender. As a parent, you know that. So be honest and have an honest discussion.
It matters because of the comments you've posted. You think it doesn't. So, if it's so insignificant, answer the question: are you a mother or a father?
I'm curious as to why you think that matters.
MintJulep
05-15-2010, 07:12 PM
Having no children of your own, you have zero authority in terms of speaking about motherhood or parenthood. Zero.Then perhaps you will explain how having a gay, fat, et.al. child deprives someone of enjoying their own motherhood if they truly love the child for what they are.
Can't wait to hear this....
Having no children of your own, you have zero authority in terms of speaking about motherhood or parenthood. Zero.
According to that logic,
If somebody has never done drugs, they have no authority to speak about drug laws.
If somebody has never served in the military, they have no authority to speak about war.
If somebody has never served as a congressperson, they have no authority to speak of congressional action.
You have some flawed logic, but have at it.
That's not the issue and I think you already know that. Why are you hiding your gender? The roles of parents vary according to gender. As a parent, you know that. So be honest and have an honest discussion.
Single parents often fill both roles.
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:17 PM
Having no children of your own, you have zero authority in terms of speaking about motherhood or parenthood. Zero.
Stay curious. I won't have an honest discussion with someone who refuses to be honest.
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:18 PM
Then perhaps you will explain how having a gay, fat, et.al. child deprives someone of enjoying their own motherhood if they truly love the child for what they are.
Can't wait to hear this....
Parents know the difference between raising a child in a well-adjusted environment and raising a child surrounded by conflict over which they have no control.
It's over your head, obviously.
Stay curious. I won't have an honest discussion with someone who refuses to be honest.
I find it incredibly fitting that you quoted yourself when saying that.
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:20 PM
I find it incredibly fitting that you quoted yourself when saying that.
Yes, I clicked on the wrong dialogue box. How human of me. Fitting, indeed.
Parents know the difference between raising a child in a well-adjusted environment and raising a child surrounded by conflict over which they have no control.
It's over your head, obviously.
parents know that they can't control the entire environment their children grow up in.
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:23 PM
parents know that they can't control the entire environment their children grow up in.
So it's safe to assume that you're going to stay hidden and avoid an honest discussion, then?
MintJulep
05-15-2010, 07:23 PM
Parents know the difference between raising a child in a well-adjusted environment and raising a child surrounded by conflict over which they have no control.
It's over your head, obviously.Yes, but outside conflict does not prevent someone from enjoying being a mother and loving their child for who and what they are. Only they can do that.
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:24 PM
Yes, but outside conflict does not prevent someone from enjoying being a mother and loving their child for who and what they are. Only they can do that.
Depends on what the conflict is. And did I say anything about inside or outside? No, I said conflicts beyond their control. Read.
So it's safe to assume that you're going to stay hidden and avoid an honest discussion, then?
No, what is apparent is that I don't think gender matters as much as you seem to think it does.
Every bit of my conversation has been honest and the fact that you don't know my gender has nothing to do with it. (Unless you want to assign labels)
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:29 PM
No, what is apparent is that I don't think gender matters as much as you seem to think it does.
Every bit of my conversation has been honest and the fact that you don't know my gender has nothing to do with it. (Unless you want to assign labels)
Wrong. If you're a parent, you know well it isn't about labeling. It's the roles of parents as pertains to gender and the identifying process children experience in relating to their parents.
Be honest, or have a nice day.
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:32 PM
Yes, but outside conflict does not prevent someone from enjoying being a mother and loving their child for who and what they are. Only they can do that.
Incidentally, Mint - nowhere in the letter does this mother say anything about being robbed of being able to love and accept her child.
See if you can, at the very least, deal honestly with what has actually been said, despite having zero experience as a mother yourself.
Wrong. If you're a parent, you know well it isn't about labeling. It's the roles of parents as pertains to gender and the identifying process children experience in relating to their parents.
Be honest, or have a nice day.
I'm doing both, it's not an or situation.
Why are you so hung up on gender?
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:35 PM
I'm doing both, it's not an or situation.
Why are you so hung up on gender?
No, you're not. You're limiting the depth of this discussion because you feel the need to hide your gender. So I'm done wasting time on you.
Incidentally, Mint - nowhere in the letter does this mother say anything about being robbed of being able to love and accept her child.
See if you can, at the very least, deal honestly with what has actually been said, despite having zero experience as a mother yourself.
Incidentally, neither does MintJulep mention "robbed', so why did you bring that up?
Hawkeye2j
05-15-2010, 07:36 PM
I'm doing both, it's not an or situation.
Why are you so hung up on gender?
Why are you so hung up on hiding it?
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:36 PM
Indecently, neither does MintJulep mention "robbed', so why did you bring that up?
Because it's in the letter written by the woman in the opening post, Pat.
MintJulep
05-15-2010, 07:36 PM
Incidentally, Mint - nowhere in the letter does this mother say anything about being robbed of being able to love and accept her child. Isn't loving and accepting your child for what they are an integral part of 'enjoying your motherhood'? I mean, really. This is common sense stuff here.
See if you can, at the very least, deal honestly with what has actually been said, despite having zero experience as a mother yourself. Perhaps you should refrain from speaking about the war in the future, since you have zero military experience. Your lack of experience renders your opinion void, by your logic.
No, you're not. You're limiting the depth of this discussion because you feel the need to hide your gender. So I'm done wasting time on you.
If you feel that gender identification is necessary for you to engage in honest conversation, I would say that you have the problem, not me.
Why are you so hung up on hiding it?
Because my gender is irrelevant to the conversation. So is yours.
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:38 PM
Isn't loving and accepting your child for what they are an integral part of 'enjoying your motherhood'? I mean, really. This is common sense stuff here.
Of course it is. So, too, is watching them grow and develop other relationships with the outside world.
Perhaps you should refrain from speaking about the war in the future, since you have zero military experience. Your lack of experience renders your opinion void, by your logic.
By yours - and Pat's - logic, motherhood is no different than a job in Congress or anything else.
Yet another reason to go finish the wash. You two forgot to bring a decent argument today.
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:39 PM
If you feel that gender identification is necessary for you to engage in honest conversation, I would say that you have the problem, not me.
If we're going to talk about raising children, it's quite relevant. My guess is you don't have any kids and you lied. I'll go with that, since you refuse to provide anything substantive that would convince me otherwise. See ya.
Because it's in the letter written by the woman in the opening post, Pat.
Incidentally, Mint - nowhere in the letter does this mother say anything about being robbed of being able to love and accept her child.
See if you can, at the very least, deal honestly with what has actually been said, despite having zero experience as a mother yourself.
Make up your mind.
Parade Rain
05-15-2010, 07:41 PM
Make up your mind.
Only what is in red is to be read? Is that how it is in Pat's world?
Get that looked at.
If we're going to talk about raising children, it's quite relevant. My guess is you don't have any kids and you lied. I'll go with that, since you refuse to provide anything substantive that would convince me otherwise. See ya.
Not a lie. I have two kids, my unwillingness to tell you my gender doesn't change that fact anymore than your lack of knowledge about my gender changes my arguments.
Only what is in red is to be read? Is that how it is in Pat's world?
Get that looked at.
And you say I am lying.
Silly Parade Rain, trix are for kids.
Hawkeye2j
05-16-2010, 02:47 PM
It's Pat!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRY_t6GEOB4
It's Pat!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRY_t6GEOB4
:lmao2: :lmao2:
:thumbsup:
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