Excellent "Insiders View" of the "surge"

[Linkster]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/08/AR2007090801846_pf.html

[Bill]

And when we finally are forced to pull out in ignominious defeat, Iraq becomes the new country of West Iran.

And China gets all the oil.

Thanks Republicans! Heckuva Job!

[radioguy]

And when we finally are forced to pull out in ignominious defeat, Iraq becomes the new country of West Iran.

And China gets all the oil.

Thanks Republicans! Heckuva Job!

The only way we "pull out" and a leave in "ignominious defeat" is if America listens to the democrats in the congress and the senate. Then if Iraq becomes the new country of West Iran and China gets all of the oil, we can thank the democrats.

[Linkster]

How bout if they happen to listen to the 78% of Americans that now support leaving Iraq - will they be blamed by the right wing too? Or should we just equate that 78% of America to democrats

Unfortunately this country is quickly becoming a little whining blame game to "some" - the rest of the country doesnt give a fuck what either the right-wing or left wing taunts each other with - and go right on blaming Simon for all of our troubles - its all who can yell and kick their feet the hardest

[Bill]

The only way we "pull out" and a leave in "ignominious defeat" is if America listens to the democrats in the congress and the senate. Then if Iraq becomes the new country of West Iran and China gets all of the oil, we can thank the democrats.

I'll bet you thought that up all by yourself.

[Moby]

The only way we "pull out" and a leave in "ignominious defeat" is if America listens to the democrats in the congress and the senate. Then if Iraq becomes the new country of West Iran and China gets all of the oil, we can thank the democrats.
Have you looked at the legal troop rotations for the troops?

In April we legally have to remove about 30k troops. By next fall we legally have to remove another 50k (I think). That's more then half the troops will be removed because they've completed the 15 month tour of duty.

We only have two options left.

1. Start a draft.
2. Keep the soldiers there for 24 months at a time.

PLEASE DO NOT TAKE MY WORD ON THIS. Don't take any one's word on this issue as it's too important. Do your own research and add up the numbers yourself. Then you will understand that we're pulling out of Iraq no matter what.

[Linkster]

SM - Agreed - I keep posting about this
The only way they can maintain the levels past the spring is to commit more brigades over there - which has two problems
first - the political ramifications of announcing additional brigades committed
second - we just barely have enough to maintain the national guard at minimum staffing levels at home - any others committed will take away from "homeland defense" and emergency response

[Jennifer]

And when we finally are forced to pull out in ignominious defeat, Iraq becomes the new country of West Iran.

And China gets all the oil.

Thanks Republicans! Heckuva Job!


If we pull out, we can thank the Democrats as they'll be the ones signing the orders in 2009 to pull out.

[Bill]

If we pull out, we can thank the Democrats as they'll be the ones signing the orders in 2009 to pull out.

Too bad you republicans screwed thing up so badly you're going to lose to a bunch of whiny dems.

Maybe in your next war you'll do better.

[Linkster]

maybe we can stop blaming both of the major political parties and get back to being US citizens - unfortunately I have come to realize that is not going to happen as long as the Dems and Reps control the media

[Bill]

Linkster, I will stop when I'm dead, and not a minute sooner.

If I can drag a republican in one hand, and a democrat in the other, down with me into the grave, I'll die with a smile.

Two republicans - even better.

Those corporatist fascists thought they could steal my country and destroy my constitution, they have earned my emnity for all time.

[Linkster]

Bill - look at it this way - at least they'll probably be gay so they can go down together :) (ducking)

[Moby]

If we pull out, we can thank the Democrats as they'll be the ones signing the orders in 2009 to pull out.
Exactly!

If you haven't noticed the timing this is what it's always been about. Everyone knew that Dubya would leave troops there until he left office and then next spring start blaming the next President for the shit he started.

This is exactly what his daddy did and exactly what he always planned on doing.

What concerns me is that so many people simply ignore what just over a decade ago. :(

[Jennifer]

Hell, that's what the Clintons did to Bush. They screwed up the economy, ran the military into the ground so they didn't have the troops nor the equipment to safe guard a thumbtack, they over saw the largest crash in the stock market in American history and they saw the collapse of a MAJOR labor market in this country (IT) and Bush has been blamed for it all.

If the next Pres signs a surrender order and retreats, and we get hit again on American soil, we'll have plenty to blame him for. Even if the liberal media won't.

[Linkster]

SM - thats why there is a huge underground movement now to let the Republicans win the next election and congress - many "smart" people are proposing that and it seems to be taking hold

Jenn - You might want to check your economy facts - I know for a fact that its BS - but Im gonna turn it around - prove with references that Clinton screwed up the economy :thumbsup:
Then show me the references for the military claim you are making and the largest crash in the stock market

If you can post non-biased proof (other than being extremely surprised since my memory is usually better) then I will agree with you - otherwise Im going to have to call you out as being just a hack op - and put you back on ignore here

[Moby]

SM - thats why there is a huge underground movement now to let the Republicans win the next election and congress - many "smart" people are proposing that and it seems to be taking hold

Linkster, I've been telling you this for years. I think I started posting baout it in 2002. People never look at history to see what's going to happen in the future.

[Linkster]

I remember :thumbsup: Of course all those beers you poured down me clouded things a bit :lmao2:

[moonman]

We are losing in Iraq because we don't compete with bin Ladin. How many terrorists could we recruit to go after their terrorists if we offered them 75 virgins?

A 50 million dollar bounty hasn't got us anywhere. We need to speak their language. I say make 'em an offer they can't refuse. Outbid bin Ladin and we will win their hearts and minds.

Chuckling are you? Fact is the Iraqi's were better off under Saddam Hussein than they are under us and the puppet gubment. They had running potable water and electricity 24/7. They had jobs.

We are losing because we don't give as much as the terrorists and dictators.

The surge hasn't worked because it is just more of the same. More death, destruction and displaced people. Fighting terrorism or guerrilla war tactics is like squeezing a ballon. Put pressure on one area and they move the fight to another. The French taught us in Algeirs that you can't defeat a guerrilla army with military tactics alone.

Baghdad Bob said it best when our tanks and troops were just a few miles outside the capital. He was asked why isn't Saddam's army fighting? He looked right into the camera and said, "We will fight the Americans in a time and place of our choosing, not theirs."

I don't hear many Bush supporters telling Baghdad Bob jokes anymore. Fact is he was right.

What's the difference wether or not we admit a policy mistake and back out now. Reagan did it in Lebanon!!!! Or wether we let it drag on and on until we've so exhausted our military they are just sitting ducks in carniville shoot. Is that what you Bush supporters want? A financially bankrupt country like the Soviet Union was after Afghanistan and a military to fatigued to be of use? Is that what you Bush supporters are advocating?

It is surely what you are going to bring us. Financial ruin and a defeated military.

[moonman]

More just cuz I'm outraged. In December 1983 I closed escrow on a gang infested 5 story 64 unit apartment building in downtown Los Angeles. On January 2, 1985 I moved in.

The building was so bad the city had some 26 pages of code violations written on it. Women carried guns for protection. Cops and building inspectors wouldn't enter the building in less than groups of four.

In six months I kicked enough ass that 4 teachers from local grade school asked if the could come over and meet me. They shared that there occurred 180 degree turn in the artwork of the children who lived in my building. In short the sun came out in the artwork.

In that six months I had personally disarmed 18 people and I never carried a gun. I put one guy who beat a 16 year old girl in intensive care. When his brother came looking for me I kicked his butt too. Teh day I moved in there 3 telephones in a 64 unit apartment. Two years later every tenant had a phone and cable tv.

But kicking ass isn't what changed the building. I fixed the laundry room. I brought in day care and a full service charity to teach the largely immigrant tenants parenting and English. I refurbished the apartments and I only changed about1/3 of the tenants. I let people looking for work use me for a reference. Until tenants got their own phones I let them use my office phone for emergency contact. When Hollywood came calling to use the building for a location I refused money. I asked that they use as many tenants as possible and give them the money they would have given me. Well New World Productions who produced Cagney & Lacey and other top shows at the time spent 3-4 times what they would have paid me. Whenever I could I hired tenants to work for me. People laughed at me, including my investors until they saw that I increased the income from 14k to 26k per month.

When a family suffered a breakin and were robbed of their savings I gave them 4 months free rent.

You can't win a war by killing people and blowing things up. We didn't win in Europe until we instituted the Marshall Plan. We won in Japan not by dropping the bomb but by winning the peace after we dropped the bomb. We gave something to the people. We rebuilt their economies. And I didn't change that building just by kicking ass.

You think another Hirohito or Hitler wouldn't have risen from the ruins of Japan & Germany respectively if we didn't rebuild those countries? You think there won't be more bin Ladin's until we give the people some reason to see a better life for themselves and their children?

The crap passing for policy coming out of Washington is ruinous to us, our nation and the world. We'll never win in Iraq until they can drink water safely from their taps, the electricity works at the flip of a switch 24/7 and anybody who wants an education can get one and anyone who wants work can find work that pays a liveable wage.

Our leaders, Republican and Democrat INDEED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE don't understand that nobody wins a war. You win the peace after the war. You do that by improving the lives of the people.

Fact is Iraqi's and Afghani's were better off under the dictators than they are under us and the puppets. Until that changes, WE LOSE!!! and deservedly so.