No Oil Price Gouging!

[Jennifer]

Did you see what happened a couple days ago? This is September 6th. On September 4th, did you see what happened? The FTC -- do you know what that stands for? It's the Federal Trade Commission, for those of you in Rio Linda. Do you know what they said? After concluding a months-long research project, they concluded that there was no price gouging from the oil industry following Hurricane Katrina. The FTC says no price gouging.

"They said high gasoline prices then and now are simply the result of ordinary market forces." Really? Okay, fine. But that's not the end of the story, ladies and gentlemen, because I'd like to know where Senator Schumer is on this issue. Where is Senator Schemer? I'm sure the microphones and cameras are set up and the most dangerous place for you to be when such a situation exists, is between Senator Schemer and the cameras and microphones. Madeleine Albright has a column in the Washington Post: "How to Change Iraq: Bush Should Start by Admitting Fault," and one of the constant refrains of the Democrats has been that Bush should admit his mistakes. "If he would just admit his mistakes, why, why, we could be all getting along right now! If Bush would just admit that he's an idiot and had done this now." Here's Albright. Well, that kind of cuts both ways, doesn't it? I've heard this rant so many times: "Come clean with the American people. Admit mistakes!"


http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5ikA2_euF4yJrQpM88XBQhTrUhvMg


Well, shoot. So much for the theory that Bush is invading countries to make his oil buddies rich. FTC says that oil prices are being dictated by the market. Not by war, disasters or gouging.

[kres24GT]

There is no such thing as price gouging. The very principal of price gouging is that you are somehow entitled to someone else's product at price other than what the owner of that product will sell it for.

Price gouging is just something politcians use to scare people into voting for them.

[Linkster]

Do you not read the articles you link to - they were investigating gas price gouging after Katrina - had nothing to do with war or anything else you mentioned - and I can tell you for a fact that down here where Katrina hit prices were over $7 a gallon while we were being gouged - it was the local retailers gouging - but they neglected to investigate that

The article also states pretty plainly that the price fluctuates based on demand and oil prices - which are set by a consortium of the oil companies and the market working together - explains pretty simply why the US based oil companies had their best quarterly earnings by a huge increase in ages

[LadyMod at scam.com]

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5ikA2_euF4yJrQpM88XBQhTrUhvMg


Well, shoot. So much for the theory that Bush is invading countries to make his oil buddies rich. FTC says that oil prices are being dictated by the market. Not by war, disasters or gouging.

I fail to see what invading Iran and giving big tax breaks to oil companies has to do with ripping off the people who lived in Louisiana after Katrina. No one said it was the government gouging people. It was the resellers doing it. If it weren't so, Chavez wouldn't have jumped at the chance to flood cheap oil into the American market.

You do have a strange way of interpreting the facts.

LM

[kres24GT]

Again the premise that a product or service should be sold for any price other than what the owner of that product wants to sell it for is absurd.

[Linkster]

kres - you are obviously missing the point here - I live in a town that was on the evacuation path during Katrina - and ended up being in the middle of the hurrican because of its path
A week later when the power came back and the evacuees were able to start moving away from New Orleans again (gas stations had power finally) - the distributers doubled, and in some cases tripled the prices - some places saw as high as $9 a gallon - and that is against the law - its a felony crime to gouge people during a disaster - and some have already been charged with it - this investigation has nothing to do with market fluctuations - it has to do with people taking advantage of others illegally
I understand that you may feel that business owners should be able to get whatever they want for a commodity - but there are specific laws that prevent gouging

[kres24GT]

kres - you are obviously missing the point here - I live in a town that was on the evacuation path during Katrina - and ended up being in the middle of the hurrican because of its path
A week later when the power came back and the evacuees were able to start moving away from New Orleans again (gas stations had power finally) - the distributers doubled, and in some cases tripled the prices - some places saw as high as $9 a gallon - and that is against the law - its a felony crime to gouge people during a disaster - and some have already been charged with it - this investigation has nothing to do with market fluctuations - it has to do with people taking advantage of others illegally
I understand that you may feel that business owners should be able to get whatever they want for a commodity - but there are specific laws that prevent gouging

I realize it is against the law, it's ridiculous that it is. The laws are only there becuase they make politcians look good and are easily demogauged.

That is not your gas, it's theirs. It's unbelievable there would be a law that tells someone what they can sell their property for.


If I have a gallon of gas and you want it, only two factors should determine the price. What I am willing to sell it for and what you are willing to pay for it. We don't need government's help here.


Price gouging is an invention of the politcians.

[Linkster]

Again you miss the point - the gasoline price at a station is being set by the distributor, because in this area of the south the distributors own the gas stations - they are not owned individually. The distributors buy the gasoline for a set price - determined by supply and demand and that is regulated to a degree by the FTC - although not much since the producers of oil have their own price fixing cartel called OPEC - which sets production and availablity based on demand.

Where the gouging comes in is that each state (and now the entire US since the Senate recently passed a bill) has a law that prevents anyone - not just gasoline resellers - but grocery stores, hardware etc - anything that people need during an emergency - from raising prices to an unreasonable higher price - IF the state (or with the new bill - the US) has declared an emergency.
I can tell you from personal experience after having to rescue fellow webmasters from the area because they ran out of gas waiting for the next distributor delivery - that these Thieves were taking advantage of people that were literally dying - had just lost everything - and quite honestly when I saw our local distributor visiting one of his stations - its a very lucky thing he was accompanied by two armed guards

[kres24GT]

Again you miss the point - the gasoline price at a station is being set by the distributor, because in this area of the south the distributors own the gas stations - they are not owned individually. The distributors buy the gasoline for a set price - determined by supply and demand and that is regulated to a degree by the FTC - although not much since the producers of oil have their own price fixing cartel called OPEC - which sets production and availablity based on demand.

Where the gouging comes in is that each state (and now the entire US since the Senate recently passed a bill) has a law that prevents anyone - not just gasoline resellers - but grocery stores, hardware etc - anything that people need during an emergency - from raising prices to an unreasonable higher price - IF the state (or with the new bill - the US) has declared an emergency.
I can tell you from personal experience after having to rescue fellow webmasters from the area because they ran out of gas waiting for the next distributor delivery - that these Thieves were taking advantage of people that were literally dying - had just lost everything - and quite honestly when I saw our local distributor visiting one of his stations - its a very lucky thing he was accompanied by two armed guards


You must have problems reading. The laws are stupid. I have gas, you want my gas. If you aren't willing to pay my price, then you can't have it. Simple as that. It's not yours, it's mine. Anyway anti-price gouging laws fuck up the distribution of resources. They make for good demogaugary and political ads though.

[Linkster]

kres - I would hate to have to ever depend on you during a real emergency - but thats ok - I respect your right to have an opinion no matter whether I agree with it or not - fortunately we live in a democracy where the majority gets to make the laws (mostly) and the majority dont mind regulating some prices when people are in a life or death situation

[kres24GT]

kres - I would hate to have to ever depend on you during a real emergency - but thats ok - I respect your right to have an opinion no matter whether I agree with it or not - fortunately we live in a democracy where the majority gets to make the laws (mostly) and the majority dont mind regulating some prices when people are in a life or death situation


Yes, fortunately fascism is alive and well in the US. Sad that so many openly support it.

Anyway as I said anti price gouging laws are designed to pander to the ignorant masses. You seem like a fairly smart guy so I am assuming you support them for political reasons.

I hope a Hurricane never hits where you live and you can't get a generator because a guy 3 states over can't raise his prices enough to cover the cost to drive some generators out your way. Or you can't get gas because the gas station owner was forbidden to raise the price to help distribute according to demand.

[LadyMod at scam.com]

Yes, fortunately fascism is alive and well in the US. Sad that so many openly support it.

Anyway as I said anti price gouging laws are designed to pander to the ignorant masses. You seem like a fairly smart guy so I am assuming you support them for political reasons.

I hope a Hurricane never hits where you live and you can't get a generator because a guy 3 states over can't raise his prices enough to cover the cost to drive some generators out your way. Or you can't get gas because the gas station owner was forbidden to raise the price to help distribute according to demand.

Oh brother, you are about as dumb as dirt.


LM

[Linkster]

First off - until you learn the forms and history of what Fascism is and how it has evolved - I would appreciate it if you stopped calling everything in a democratic society as Fascist - while there may be small parts of it in areas where male and white or black supremecy still exists - it is completely the opposite of what you are defining/using the term for

Second - I happened to have, along with a few other webmasters within our niche of the web - provided many FREE generators to people that needed them without ever asking for payment
Last - there was plenty of gas available - and always was at the distributors plant 1 mile from the city that was experiencing these problems - he had trucks full of the stuff and tankers sitting on the river full of gas - that he had bought at pre-hurricane prices. He also owned all of the gas stations in this city - including the convenience store types - and the city has a major interstate that was the main evacuation path for people to leave New Orleans and the Gulf Coast headed north. The interstate became a parking lot when people started running out of gas since there was no electricity for 7 days to run the pumps. You had some people - including webmasters that I knew - sitting in their cars for going on a few days with no food, babys with nothing to drink and various other scenarios - the messages we were getting on our shortwaves was that entire communities had been leveled - and this was confirmed by these people who finally reached out and asked for a little help - in one case the guy and his wife and baby had been living in a brick townhouse that crumbled to the ground - luckily they were able to get out to their car

A lot of people voluntarily took their time to go out and rescue these people, bringing them to our houses, setting up generators for the ones that still had a house, providing loads of gas for them to run them with and providing at least some basic comforts

If you truly believe that someone who provides something that will keep humans alive should be raising prices to make a profit on their misfortunes - then I have a few words for you - but I am too much of a gentleman to use them openly

[kres24GT]

First off - until you learn the forms and history of what Fascism is and how it has evolved - I would appreciate it if you stopped calling everything in a democratic society as Fascist - while there may be small parts of it in areas where male and white or black supremecy still exists - it is completely the opposite of what you are defining/using the term for

Second - I happened to have, along with a few other webmasters within our niche of the web - provided many FREE generators to people that needed them without ever asking for payment
Last - there was plenty of gas available - and always was at the distributors plant 1 mile from the city that was experiencing these problems - he had trucks full of the stuff and tankers sitting on the river full of gas - that he had bought at pre-hurricane prices. He also owned all of the gas stations in this city - including the convenience store types - and the city has a major interstate that was the main evacuation path for people to leave New Orleans and the Gulf Coast headed north. The interstate became a parking lot when people started running out of gas since there was no electricity for 7 days to run the pumps. You had some people - including webmasters that I knew - sitting in their cars for going on a few days with no food, babys with nothing to drink and various other scenarios - the messages we were getting on our shortwaves was that entire communities had been leveled - and this was confirmed by these people who finally reached out and asked for a little help - in one case the guy and his wife and baby had been living in a brick townhouse that crumbled to the ground - luckily they were able to get out to their car

A lot of people voluntarily took their time to go out and rescue these people, bringing them to our houses, setting up generators for the ones that still had a house, providing loads of gas for them to run them with and providing at least some basic comforts

If you truly believe that someone who provides something that will keep humans alive should be raising prices to make a profit on their misfortunes - then I have a few words for you - but I am too much of a gentleman to use them openly


I agree with most of what you say except for when you infer that morality should be legislated. I do not agree with this at all. Just because I or you beleive something to be morally right, does not mean I believe that idea should be forced on others.

[kres24GT]

Oh brother, you are about as dumb as dirt.


LM


Excellent retort.

[Moby]

Oh brother, you are about as dumb as dirt.


LM
Now I can really believe that you are from Texas :)

[Linkster]

I hope I never inferred that morality should be legislated - definitely was not my intent and I am probably one of the most open people in my stand against that
All I was trying to infer is that occassionally there are people that will scam others based on either fear, impending loss of life, or loss of their basic needs in life - and those that either instill that fear or take advantage of it at the possible cost of a human life are not acceptable - not a moral issue at all - they are just a waste of space on earth - that refers to anyone - I dont discriminate :thumbsup:
For some reason laws were made (on a moral basis unfortunately) ages ago that all humans no matter what they do to others have a right to exist - which leads to other laws that have to be made to tighten the reigns around certain of them that otherwise would carelessly cause loss of life - Im afraid that we have evolved a little too far from our ancestors

[kres24GT]

I hope I never inferred that morality should be legislated - definitely was not my intent and I am probably one of the most open people in my stand against that
All I was trying to infer is that occassionally there are people that will scam others based on either fear, impending loss of life, or loss of their basic needs in life - and those that either instill that fear or take advantage of it at the possible cost of a human life are not acceptable - not a moral issue at all - they are just a waste of space on earth - that refers to anyone - I dont discriminate :thumbsup:
For some reason laws were made (on a moral basis unfortunately) ages ago that all humans no matter what they do to others have a right to exist - which leads to other laws that have to be made to tighten the reigns around certain of them that otherwise would carelessly cause loss of life - Im afraid that we have evolved a little too far from our ancestors

Sorry but I will never support a system where even the freedom of one person is violated in exchange for making my life a little easier.

Laws that can be legislated and enforced based on the "right to exist" which entitle them to my property... scary.

[Jennifer]

According to the FTC, there was NOT plenty of gas available, and thus, the market price went up due to short supply and high demand.

Spin it all you want, but the fact remains, we did not invade and give tax breaks with the end result of price gouging. The price would have been this high no matter what.


And, for the record, if you want price to go down, LET THEM BUILD MORE REFINERIES IN THE UNITED STATE OF AMERICA. More refineries, more product, more product, less demand, less demand, lower prices.

Is Reagan the last politician that took and understood economics!?!?!

[mwillman]

Nice try jennifer but as ussual you just spew the party line.

Profits for most oil companies have increased at a higher rate then the rise in prices. That means they are basicly using world events to raise prices for no other reason then to make more money on the same product. I dont have a problem with a decent profit for business but it should not be the only thing dictating prices.