"Everything I Want To Do Is Illegal"

[Bill]

A farmers lament...

http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/2003/Everything-Is-Illegal1esp03.htm

"You would think that if I cut the trees, mill the logs into lumber, and build the house on my own farm, I could make it however I wanted to. Think again. It’s illegal to build a house less than 900 square feet. Period. Doesn’t matter if I’m a hermit or the father of 20. The government agents have decreed, in their egocentric wisdom, that no human can live in anything less than 900 square feet.

Our son got married last year and wanted to build a small cottage on the farm, which he now oversees for the most part. Our new saying is, "He runs the farm, and I just run around." The plan was to do what Mom and Dad did for Teresa and I — trade houses when children come. That way our empty nest downsizes, and the young people can upsize in the main family farmhouse. Sounds reasonable and environmentally sensitive to me. But no, his little honeymoon cottage — or our retirement shack — had to be a 900-square-foot Taj Mahal. A state-of-the-art accredited composting toilet to avoid the need for a septic system and sewer leach field was denied.

When the hillside leach field would not meet agronomic standards and we had to install it in the floodplain, I asked the health department bureaucrat why. He said that essentially the only approvable leach fields now are alongside creeks and streams, because they are the only sites that offer dark-enough colored soils. Sounds like real environmental steward-ship, doesn’t it?

Look, if I want to build a yurt of rabbit skins and go to the bathroom in a compost pile, why is it any of the government’s business? Bureaucrats bend over back-wards to accredit, tax credit, and offer money to people wanting to build pig city-factories or bigger airports. But let a guy go to his woods, cut down some trees, and build himself a home, and a plethora of regulatory tyrants descend on the project to complicate, obfuscate, irritate, frustrate, and virtually terminate. I think it’s time to eradicate some of these laws and the piranhas who administer them."

[kres24GT]

Land of the free.

[Jennifer]

Land of the free.


Which is an example of exactly what I hate about this government.


How dare they issue laws that I have to wear MY seatbelt in MY car when I am driving!

How dare they issue laws dictating how I am supposed to live in MY house!

How dare they issue laws dictating where I can go, who I can meet with, and what we can say when we gather on public land!

How dare they issue laws restricting my freedom of religious expression because a small cliche of people may not agree with it.

How dare they take MY money to pay someone else.

How dare they bicker amoungst each other when they were elected to shut up, sit down, and pass the laws we bloody well tell them to pass and NOTHING ELSE!


These individuals serve US! We do not serve them! They should be honored just to have the job, even without pay and no bonuses/kickbacks from lobbiests. Hell, they should only need 2 or 3 weeks in a normal year to get their entire job done, they should be doing that with their 2 week vacations from their day jobs!


This is just another example of a bloated, overweight, under skilled, socialist/communist government interjecting it's might where it shouldn't even be.

[moonman]

All I know is Jennifer, with a subject line like, "Everything I want to do is illegal" yer my kind of girl.

[Linkster]

Jennifer - because WE allow them to do it - you know - those millions of voters that get out there every two years and vote these idiots into office - amazing isnt it that more people vote for the American Idol :lmao2:

[moonman]

Jennifer - because WE allow them to do it - you know - those millions of voters that get out there every two years and vote these idiots into office - amazing isnt it that more people vote for the American Idol :lmao2:

American Idol is more relevant and has more meaning to more people's lives than politics. Instead of making movies maybe we really need Robin Williams to run for President. Or maybe change the election format and procedure to the phone in email vote American Idol uses.

[Linkster]

moonman - thats unfortunately correct - sure would be nice if we went back to actually teaching our children citizenship and responsibility

[Jennifer]

All I know is Jennifer, with a subject line like, "Everything I want to do is illegal" yer my kind of girl.


The one that really pisses me off is that women can murder their unborn children but they cannot have sex for money - legally.

Luckily for me, the statute of limitations is over on my transgressions of those laws.

[kres24GT]

Jennifer - because WE allow them to do it - you know - those millions of voters that get out there every two years and vote these idiots into office - amazing isnt it that more people vote for the American Idol :lmao2:


Not allow, want. Americans don't want the responsibility that comes with freedom.

[mwillman]

While I agree that they(congress both state and federal) often go to far in thier desire to make laws that protect its citizens. Its also true that some of those laws arent there to protect you but to protect others from you.

For instance before the seatbelt law the number of serious injuries due to car crashes was much higher then it is today. It became a large burden on the health care system. Which was a cost that was placed at the hands of the tax payer. So if all of us wearing set belts cuts down on deaths and costs then I see no problem with it.

As for your statements jennifer

If you dont want to use roads or have water and sewage systems. If you dont want crime kept down and fires put out. If you dont want protection from things like enslavement and sexual harressment. Then I can see you complaining about your tax dollars but unless your willing to live in a wood shack many miles from any social service with no resort to violence and crime others might do to you then you cant complain about your money paying others without being seen as a hypocritical greedy fool.

[kres24GT]

While I agree that they(congress both state and federal) often go to far in thier desire to make laws that protect its citizens. Its also true that some of those laws arent there to protect you but to protect others from you.

For instance before the seatbelt law the number of serious injuries due to car crashes was much higher then it is today. It became a large burden on the health care system. Which was a cost that was placed at the hands of the tax payer. So if all of us wearing set belts cuts down on deaths and costs then I see no problem with it.

As for your statements jennifer

If you dont want to use roads or have water and sewage systems. If you dont want crime kept down and fires put out. If you dont want protection from things like enslavement and sexual harressment. Then I can see you complaining about your tax dollars but unless your willing to live in a wood shack many miles from any social service with no resort to violence and crime others might do to you then you cant complain about your money paying others without being seen as a hypocritical greedy fool.


Most people don't have a problem being protected from others, it is when government tries to protect them from themselves they get upset.

[mwillman]

True but sometimes people just dont realize or care that thier behavior is doing serious damage to others. Then they scream that thier freedoms are being tampered with.

Its a hard balance and I do agree that they often go overboard. For instance I believe that marijuana should be legalized. All studies have shown its less harmfull them achohol and I dont care if people want to dope themselves up as long as they are not driving or endangering others.

[kres24GT]

True but sometimes people just dont realize or care that thier behavior is doing serious damage to others. Then they scream that thier freedoms are being tampered with.

Its a hard balance and I do agree that they often go overboard. For instance I believe that marijuana should be legalized. All studies have shown its less harmfull them achohol and I dont care if people want to dope themselves up as long as they are not driving or endangering others.


Not hard at all. If your directions directly and unwillingly affect others, there should be laws on. Consenting adults should be able to fuck each other in the ass without a permit while paying each other .50 a day.

Now if they want to kill the other one unbeknownst to the other, no... there should be a law.

[mwillman]

I think we agree kres24GT,

I am only making the point that some of the laws that people are complaining about in this thread are there for a better reason then to just take thier freedoms away.

[kres24GT]

I think we agree kres24GT,

I am only making the point that some of the laws that people are complaining about in this thread are there for a better reason then to just take thier freedoms away.


Not really, they are there to increase the power of the politcians and corporations over us. An Americans who willing and ready to trade freedom for comfort and safety are happy to oblige.

The Great Depression was there best thing that ever happened to the politcians. One decade of real government need paved the way to give the politcians in power complete ownership of the American people with the ability to sell them out to highest bidder on K Street.

Pretty soon we won't be able to wipe our ass without government knowing about it.

[mwillman]

Yes yes yes

Sorry but I dont trust the masses to do what is right most of the time. If we dont have laws in place then people will do what they want at the expense of other individuals and the society as a whole.

You might think the wild west was a good place to live but the truth is it was a very dangerous time to live.

You want freedom without responsiblility and that my friend is childish and foolish.

I dont think there should be laws related to sexual acts unless those acts harm others. On the other hand just becuase my pool is empty doesnt mean any skate rat in town can use it to get thier jollies.

[kres24GT]

Yes yes yes

Sorry but I dont trust the masses to do what is right most of the time. If we dont have laws in place then people will do what they want at the expense of other individuals and the society as a whole.

You might think the wild west was a good place to live but the truth is it was a very dangerous time to live.

You want freedom without responsiblility and that my friend is childish and foolish.

I dont think there should be laws related to sexual acts unless those acts harm others. On the other hand just becuase my pool is empty doesnt mean any skate rat in town can use it to get their jollies.



No I want freedom with responsibility. Does freedom make our lives more difficult... yes. I am still all for it though. More than not be willing to trade my freedom for comfort, I am not willing to trade yours.


Remember when you vote tor exchange your freedom for safety, you vote to trade everyone else's as well.

[mwillman]

When I vote I look at an issue and make up my own mind.

This is not a black or white situation. I am not advocating trading freedom for comfort I am advocating the rule of law over anarchy mostly becuase I dont trust humanity.

[kres24GT]

When I vote I look at an issue and make up my own mind.

This is not a black or white situation. I am not advocating trading freedom for comfort I am advocating the rule of law over anarchy mostly becuase I dont trust humanity.


Whatever helps you sleep.

[mwillman]

I sleep very well in my nice room in a great city while I finish an Engineering degree at midlife (40) that this society is helping to pay for. Once and while thats done I will do my part to help this world while enjoying a nice life in a beautiful land full of many great places and people.

I will pay my taxes and support peace and freedom for all people and will help to defend it against tyrants either external or internal.

I will not run around playing the victim.

[Moby]

Luckily for me, the statute of limitations is over on my transgressions of those laws.
How much did you have to pay those women? :)

[Linkster]

Moby - Im surprised at you - you know the costs in most East European countries by heart as many times as youve been there :lmao2:

[Jennifer]

Honestly, inspecting seat belts on drivers is a clear and direct violation of your rights from unwarranted search and seizure granted you in the US Constitution. I don't care how many golden bricks you pave that road with, that law is a violation of the Constitution of the United States of America. The next step is to have cops looking into your homes to make sure you aren't drinking too much, or smoking, or spanking your kids. For the good of society of course!


Also, if I want to charge $550/hr to have sex with a man, and he's willing to pay me for it, then that's our business. What, he can buy me an expensive dinner, take me to a show in the city, go on a carriage ride through the city afterwards, go to another restaurant after that for desert and a nightcap and then have sex, but he can't just cut out all the middle men and pay me directly???

[mwillman]

You cant crash you house into someone else.

Really Jennifer cant you see the difference between insuring the proper use of a potentially deadly weapon and your house?

[Linkster]

inspecting seat belts on drivers is a clear and direct violation of your rights from unwarranted search and seizure granted you in the US Constitution.

The actual wording is a little different in the 4th Amendment - its Unreasonable - not unwarranted - and all of the states that do it do so under state law - not fedeal law - and unfortunately the Constitution also allows any state to make their own laws and the Constitution does not take priority over them - it is forbidden to be used as a remedy against a state law

[Jennifer]

I find it reasonable for the police to look into your home and make sure you are decently dressed at all times.

I also find it reasonable for the police to look into your home to make sure you are eating square meals so that your nutrition levels are adequate to expect good physical health, your cookies, ice cream, sodas, fast food, etc are making you unhealthy and burdening my health care system.


See how easy this can go down hill? We already have governments mandating what you can and cannot eat. And we have governments mandating that police look into your private property to ensure law compliance. Let's just put the two together.

[mwillman]

You are creating a false slippery sloop argument.

Your car is not your house. You take your car into the pubic domain where it can possible do damage to others.

[Linkster]

Jennifer - I dont disagree with you - I think its a disgrace that Americans allow themselves to be put in this position - but then - they are the "people" that elect these idiots to make these laws

[mwillman]

Yes you guys are so repressed by the govenment.

Stop acting like victims most people in the world would change places with you in a minute.

[Jennifer]

Yes you guys are so repressed by the govenment.

Stop acting like victims most people in the world would change places with you in a minute.


I did. I came from the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Doesn't mean I like it any better here, especially when it is so easy to see parallels between the USSR and the USA.


Furthermore, my house might BE my car! How do you know?


Anyway, a car is a four walled object with a ceiling and a floor with a self contained environment much like a traditional home. I see a lot of similarities between them.


And if you start letting the police look through your windows, they will push to look into more windows. I'd rather have some idiot who didn't put on a seat belt go through his windshield and die then have the government start putting their heads in my windshield and telling me how to live my life.

[mwillman]

Its funny how many ex soviet unionists are now right wing republicans.

I know 3 personally 2 of whom where KGB and East German secret poice and they are all now right wing republicans. That in it self should tell you what the right wing stands for and its not freedom from oppression.

[kres24GT]

Its funny how many ex soviet unionists are now right wing republicans.

I know 3 personally 2 of whom where KGB and East German secret poice and they are all now right wing republicans. That in it self should tell you what the right wing stands for and its not freedom from oppression.

Pretty much everyone is ant-freedom nowadays. Republican, Democrat, Conservative, Liberal, Right wing, Left wing... all are strongly opposed to freedom. Freedom means their political aspirations may never be achieved. All of these groups want everyone to believe as they do, and freedom is the greatest obstacle to this goal.

Yes they will claim to love freedom when questioned,only a select few have the balls to admit they have no interest in freedom only forcing their view of the world on everyone else.

[mwillman]

I repsect your idealism Kres but its just a little to utopian for the real world.

[Betty Blowtorch]

Pretty much everyone is anti-freedom nowadays.
Republican, Democrat, Conservative, Liberal, Right wing,
Left wing... all are strongly opposed to freedom.
Egad. You're like a broken record with that anti-freedom shit.

I suspect the "freedom" you crave so much would turn into
a corporate "free-for-all" with no government interference
to stop cowboy capitalists from doing whatever they can
get away with. Think de-regulation. Think Enron.

If you really want to see what your vision of freedom would
actually look like in the real world, you don't need to foresee
the future -- just look back to the 19th century, during the
wonderful era of sweatshops, the 72-hour workweek, child
labor, no medical benefits, no labor unions, etc.

Back then, they didn't have all those pesky laws you hate
so much.

Is that what you want, Kres? The freedom for corporations
to turn back the clock 100 years? Is that what freedom
looks like to you? That's what it sounds like.

[kres24GT]

Egad. You're like a broken record with that anti-freedom shit.

I suspect the "freedom" you crave so much would turn into
a corporate "free-for-all" with no government interference
to stop cowboy capitalists from doing whatever they can
get away with. Think de-regulation. Think Enron.

If you really want to see what your vision of freedom would
actually look like in the real world, you don't need to foresee
the future -- just look back to the 19th century, during the
wonderful era of sweatshops, the 72-hour workweek, child
labor, no medical benefits, no labor unions, etc.

Back then, they didn't have all those pesky laws you hate
so much.

Is that what you want, Kres? The freedom for corporations
to turn back the clock 100 years? Is that what freedom
looks like to you? That's what it sounds like.



Freedom over government... yes. You do realize no one is required to give corporations money, they are however required to give it to the government.

Freedom is worth the extra effort.


You don't like freedom, I get it... but just come out and say it. Stop blaming the other guys for the lack of freedom and admit it is the will of the people like yourself to end freedom in exchange for comfort and safety from a nanny government.

[kres24GT]

I repsect your idealism Kres but its just a little to utopian for the real world.


That's fine. But please include yourself in the discussion when mentioning those who oppose freedom for fascism in the name of safety and comfort.

[mwillman]

I refuse to play a riged game Kres.

I will not say that I support facism just becuase I believe that in a Complex modern society rules help it survive and flurish.

[kres24GT]

I refuse to play a riged game Kres.

I will not say that I support facism just becuase I believe that in a Complex modern society rules help it survive and flurish.

But you do support fascism. If you like to delude yourself into believing you do not that is your prerogative, but remember that next time someone wants to legislate away one of your freedoms and you disagree with them.

[Betty Blowtorch]

Freedom over government... yes. You do realize no one is required
to give corporations money, they are however required to give it
to the government.
Since you're such a freedom-loving individualist (unlike the rest of us)
I assume that you refuse to pay any federal income taxes, because
you would never allow your hard-earned money to be thrown away
on Bush's fascist war in Iraq. Right?

You think the rest of us pay taxes because we're just a bunch of
sheep who love giving our money and freedom to the nanny state.
But you're not a sheep, are you? You're such a freedom-loving guy
that you refuse to give any of your money to the government, right?
That is, if you practice what you preach.

You don't pay taxes, right, Kres?



You don't like freedom, I get it... but just come out and say it.
Stop blaming the other guys for the lack of freedom and admit
it is the will of the people like yourself to end freedom in exchange
for comfort and safety from a nanny government.
Sorry, buddy, I gotta give you the giggling piggy. http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/8558/piggygigglingtz1.gif

You speak of freedom in vague generalities. Your true political
identity can be determined by where you stand on a range of
political issues, as well as how you live your life.

For example, if you believe in freedom from government, you would
never work for the government, right? It would be inconsistent and
hypocritical for a libertarian who hates the government to ever allow
himself to work as a government employee or collect a paycheck
from the government, right?

It's been 30 years since I worked for the government. I spent two
years in the US Army, and I've only worked in the private sector
since then.

How about you? Any government employment in your past?



But you do support fascism. If you like to delude yourself into
believing you do not that is your prerogative, but remember
that next time someone wants to legislate away one of your
freedoms and you disagree with them.
So now if anyone doesn't buy into your kneejerk libertarian
ideology, you're going to call them a fascist?

Like most ideologues, you see the world in black and white.
As you get older, maybe you'll begin to see subtle nuances
and shades of gray.

Weren't you in the military just a few years ago? Weren't you
a card-carrying member of the "police power of government"
that you hate so much? Where do you get off calling anyone
else a fascist?



I suspect the "freedom" you crave so much would turn into
a corporate "free-for-all" with no government interference
to stop cowboy capitalists from doing whatever they can
get away with. Think de-regulation. Think Enron.

If you really want to see what your vision of freedom would
actually look like in the real world, you don't need to foresee
the future -- just look back to the 19th century, during the
wonderful era of sweatshops, the 72-hour workweek, child
labor, no medical benefits, no labor unions, etc.

Back then, they didn't have all those pesky laws you hate
so much.

Is that what you want, Kres? The freedom for corporations
to turn back the clock 100 years? Is that what freedom
looks like to you? That's what it sounds like.
You still haven't answered my question: how does your
libertarian vision of freedom differ from the unregulated
libertarian era of robber barons and sweatshops that
America experienced 100 years ago?

[kres24GT]

Refuse to pay income taxes no, all to happy to fun Bush's war... of course not.

I served in the military and have no problem with voluntary government service.

I have answered your question, I prefer corporations over government. I can choose not to give my money to corporations. I cannot choose not to give my money to government.

What sucks is when we get the fascist combination of corporations running government through the guise of regulation. This is the system you and mwillman prefer.

I understand freedom comes with responsibility and more work. To me it's worth it.

Again, it's not my freedom I am not willing to sacrifice, it is your freedom I am not willing to sacrifice. You are all too willing to infringe on my freedom to make your life easier. I am only asking you to admit it and stop sugar coating, only to criticize big government when you disagree with it.

It is because of big government lovers like yourself that corporate interest run the government, we are mired in possibly unwinnable war in Iraq, and we are moving toward a dictatorship.

[mwillman]

Kres

Why dont you write a book explaining exactly how your system would work. That way we would have something to compare our system to rather then just hearing you bitch. Also we could then nitpick your system to death based on our own personal feeling about how much the world owes us.

[kres24GT]

Kres

Why dont you write a book explaining exactly how your system would work. That way we would have something to compare our system to rather then just hearing you bitch. Also we could then nitpick your system to death based on our own personal feeling about how much the world owes us.

It's really not complicated. The pros and cons are irrelevant, it's simply a system of bare bones government where people are free to make their own choices as long as they do not directly and unwillingly affect others. I am not willing to trade your freedom for what I consider to be pros.

[Betty Blowtorch]

I prefer corporations over government. I can choose not to give
my money to corporations. I cannot choose not to give my money
to government.
It seems like your ideology boils down to the fact that you don't
like paying taxes or having the government tell you what to do.



Refuse to pay income taxes, no, all too happy to fund Bush's war.
Oh wait... you DO like paying taxes when those taxes are used
to fund a genocidal fascist war.



I served in the military and have no problem with voluntary
government service.
So you have no problem with collecting a government paycheck
and having the government tell you what to do every day.

And apparently you have no problem with forcing millions of
taxpayers who work in the private sector (like me) to pay
taxes to support the salaries of government employees.

(Am I detecting a pattern of inconsistency here?)



It is because of big government lovers like yourself that corporate
interests run the government, we are mired in possibly unwinnable
war in Iraq, and we are moving toward a dictatorship.
You've already said you're all too happy to pay taxes to fund Bush's
fascist war in Iraq. And apparently you were all too happy to join
the army which started this genocidal war (a war I've opposed
from the beginning.) And you have no problem with collecting
a government paycheck...

... but you call ME a big government lover and blame me for this
war which you've been all too happy to support?

You're in favor of corporate domination, and then you complain
that corporate interests run the government. What did you think
was going to happen under a system of corporate domination?

[Betty Blowtorch]

It's really not complicated, it's simply a system of bare bones
government where people are free to make their own choices
as long as they do not directly and unwillingly affect others.
Stated like a true neocon.

You sound just like Grover Norquist, one of the fathers
of the neocon movement.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5767/norquistbathtub2jn0.jpg

[mwillman]

Dont mind him Betty he lives in lala land.

He wants all the good with none of the responsibility.

[kres24GT]

Dont mind him Betty he lives in lala land.

He wants all the good with none of the responsibility.

I think I have been pretty clear I do want the responsibility. I am not asking you to agree with me, I am only asking next tine you are whining about your freedom being violated, remember that you enjoy doing the same to others.

[kres24GT]

Stated like a true neocon.

You sound just like Grover Norquist, one of the fathers
of the neocon movement.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5767/norquistbathtub2jn0.jpg


Neocons love big government, so that makes no sense. I assume you use neocon as an insult and either do not understand or care what its real meaning is?

Katrina is an excellent example of what happens when we put our faith in government. No thanks.

[Betty Blowtorch]

I am not asking you to agree with me, I am only asking
next time you are whining about your freedom being violated,
remember that you enjoy doing the same to others.
Actually you're the one who repeatedly whines that everyone
is anti-freedom. That was what initiated this current debate,
the fact that you keep harping on this anti-freedom shit like
a broken record that only plays one song:



Pretty much everyone is anti-freedom nowadays. Republican,
Democrat, Conservative, Liberal, Right wing, Left wing...
all are strongly opposed to freedom. Freedom means their
political aspirations may never be achieved. All of these
groups want everyone to believe as they do, and freedom
is the greatest obstacle to this goal.
When I try to pin you down on what you really stand for,
your views seem inconsistent and contradictory: you don't
like to pay taxes, but you're all too happy to pay taxes to
fund Bush's war. You don't like the government, but you
have no problem with being a government employee and
collecting a government paycheck.

It's hard to figure out what you really stand for.

[kres24GT]

Actually you're the one who repeatedly whines that everyone
is anti-freedom. That was what initiated this current debate,
the fact that you keep harping on this anti-freedom shit like
a broken record that only plays one song:


When I try to pin you down on what you really stand for,
your views seem inconsistent and contradictory: you don't
like to pay taxes, but you're all too happy to pay taxes to
fund Bush's war. You don't like the government, but you
have no problem with being a government employee and
collecting a government paycheck.

It's hard to figure out what you really stand for.


Where does this happy to pay for Bush's war BS come from? I don't think I could be any clearer that I do not like this. Also I have no problem paying taxes, I have a problem paying for unconstitutional and illegal programs used to rob Americans of freedom and buy votes for politcians or fund corporations who should be earning money instead of stealing it trough the power of big government.


I do not like government, but recognize it as a necessary evil. Therefore the few people who are needed to run the government, no I do not a have a problem with them receiving compensation.

It's pretty easy to understand, of course when you make up things like I am a neocon and love paying for Bush's war it could get a little hard to understand.


Also this the post I was refering to..

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showpost.php?p=10497&postcount=31

mwillman is crying about freedom when he keeps saying he is all too happy to sacrifice freedom. I guess only when he agrees with it though.

[mwillman]

Kres

What the hell are you talking about?

I have never said Im happy to sacrifice freedom, stop putting words in my mouth.

I suspect that I do support more regulation then you do but then you have never really said anything that relates to reality you just keep up this diatribe on freedom. Your starting to sound like a bad rendition of Braveheart.

I believe in tenent protect becuase property owners can not be trusted to do the right thing. If you want to debate specifics then I am willing but so far all you say is that your for small government and freedom. What the hell does that mean?