The Justice System: How I would fix it

[steamedheat]

I get pretty well dissed at many events in our American justice system. Maybe you do as well. Here is what I would like to see.

1.The death penalty for murder, torture, rape, and child molestation. By the same token, the defense can submit any evidence they wish into court, to cut down on appeals, and face their accusers.

(I would suggest torture as punishment prior to executions, but that is another thread)

2.No Plea bargains. If a case is so flimsy that evidence cannot prove a person is guilty, why are they in court? The Plea Bargain flies in the face of Probable Cause being needed to make the initial warrant and arrest.

3.No reduced sentences for predators who express remorse for their crimes. If they had remorse they wouldn't have committed the crime. All Judges are doing is making good actors out of bad criminals.

4.No reduced sentences for good time behavior. You do the crime, you do the time, all of it.

5.Speedy trials in criminal cases. Speedy is 60 days. If you cannot get a court date in sixty days, the accused goes free.

6.No bails for criminal offenses. The accused stays in jail for sixty days.

7.In any case where it is shown that the accused was wrongly accused by a witness because of motive, the witness will be subjected to the crime and sentenced, and the accused set free. Be damned sure of who you accuse and that you can prove it.

8.No rehabilitation or paroles. You do all your time in prison. At the completion of your sentence you re-enter society as a full citizen, not a felon, with all the rights and priviledges of any citizen in the United States.

If there is a reason why a felon should not be set free, make sure the court sentences him appropriately to remain in custody until he is fit. A fitness board should be able to handle that task. American citizens should not have to surrender their freedom and rights so bad people can walk our streets.

9.Uniform sentencing. With todays technology, sentencing could be turned over to computers. All the evidence and circumstances of the trial could be entered, and it would spit out a uniform sentence for the crime. This could do away with juries of your peers and treat all people fairly accross America without emotional judgements.

So in my opinion this is what is broken in our justice system, and how I would like seeing it conducted.

[Pat]

10. Abolish victimless crime laws such as drug use and prostitution.

[Pat]

I get pretty well dissed at many events in our American justice system. Maybe you do as well. Here is what I would like to see.

1. The death penalty for murder, torture, rape, and child molestation. By the same token, the defense can submit any evidence they wish into court, to cut down on appeals, and face their accusers.

Child molestation is perhaps the most heinous crime I can think of.
I agree with you, child molesters should be removed from society permanently.

[Lykaios]

Sounds like SteamedHeat would fit in right fine in the old USSR justice system :)

[Boogie man]

I agree. Child molesters are gone forever the first time. No ifs, ands, or buts.

[Lykaios]

I don't agree with the death penalty period - mostly because of the inequities and the fact that innocent people have been executed.

I especially don't agree with it when it's not for a crime that involved loss of a life.

[steamedheat]

Child molestation is perhaps the most heinous crime I can think of.
I agree with you, child molesters should be removed from society permanently.

I would like interview the molestor to see if he is also a victim, and who molested him in the past. If he had a predator, he is still out there molesting children.

In a pilot-study of pedophiles in Hawaii prison, everyone of them had been molestation victims as children.

So I want a throughal investigation into the past, and round up any strays.

[Pat]

I don't agree with the death penalty period - mostly because of the inequities and the fact that innocent people have been executed.

I especially don't agree with it when it's not for a crime that involved loss of a life.
I think the living hell that a molested child goes through is just as bad as death and maybe worse.

[Lykaios]

1.The death penalty for murder, torture, rape, and child molestation. By the same token, the defense can submit any evidence they wish into court, to cut down on appeals, and face their accusers.


This argument does not mean I somehow "support" rapists or child molesters. I don't. But both crimes include a huge amount of grey area where innocence and guilt may not be so certain.

Crimes against children are one such where accusations are made and then later, rescinded when it is found that they have been false. A person's life is ruined by even the accusation and it is irrelevant if they are found innocent, because they are forever tainted.

The other factor is children's testimony can be horrendously unreliable. It is not unknown for overzealous child-psychologist to lead a child into statements of abuse - particularly if there is no accompaning physical evidence. Small children aren't always clear about the distinctions between reality and fantasy and because these kinds of crimes against children are among the most abhorrent in our society public reactions and sympathies may not be willing to be patient and ferret out the truth.

The last issue I have is in the last: facing the accuser. The most frequent abuser of a child is a close relative - a parent, sibling, uncle or a close friend of the family. It can be very difficult to get a child to name the correct person in the first place (I remember one case where the person named initially by the child was innocent - the real culprit was a relative and the child was too afraid or dependent to name). With relatives - the child is caught in a situation of dependency and an unwillingness of other family members to believe what the child is saying and as well, confusion - in the child's world these things are not supposed to happen and when they do, the child may feel at fault for it. All these combined make it hard for a child to point the finger at the real perp - could you really expect or even ask the child to "face his accusor" - his dad, his uncle - and know that he will be sending him to die?

I'm not so sure of this but then, as I said - I don't support the death penalty anyway.

[Lykaios]

I think the living hell that a molested child goes through is just as bad as death and maybe worse.

But it's not death. And in the end, the child still has his life and the means to try to get past what happened. I'm not saying it's trivial, but death is final and absolute and irrevecable.

[Pat]

But it's not death. And in the end, the child still has his life and the means to try to get past what happened. I'm not saying it's trivial, but death is final and absolute and irrevecable.
As I said, it's a living hell.

[Boogie man]

But it's not death. And in the end, the child still has his life and the means to try to get past what happened. I'm not saying it's trivial, but death is final and absolute and irrevecable.

That's right. If he's dead, the rapist will absolutely never harm another child again.

[Lykaios]

As I said, it's a living hell.

Living hells can be created by many events and crimes - why pick just one?

Violent crime of any sort - and, not necessarily crime but participation in war creates a living hell for the survivor. Many do regain their lives.

[Pat]

That's right. If he's dead, the rapist will absolutely never harm another child again.
:thumbsup:
I concur.

[Lykaios]

That's right. If he's dead, the rapist will absolutely never harm another child again.

True.
















Assuming we kill the correct person.

[Pat]

Living hells can be created by many events and crimes - why pick just one?

Violent crime of any sort - and, not necessarily crime but participation in war creates a living hell for the survivor. Many do regain their lives.
Do you have any children?
Had somebody molested one of my children I would have proudly gone to prison or my grave to prevent the criminal from targeting any more children.

[Lykaios]

Do you have any children?
Had somebody molested one of my children I would have proudly gone to prison or my grave to prevent the criminal from targeting any more children.

Nope.

But I've never been President of the US either.

Doesn't stop me - or anyone else for that matter - from discussing it, does it?

[Pat]

Nope.

But I've never been President of the US either.

Doesn't stop me - or anyone else for that matter - from discussing it, does it?
I never implicated that it did.
But,
I think it can bring out the passion a person.

[Lykaios]

I never implicated that it did.
But,
I think it can bring out the passion a person.

I can understand that, and, that is one reason I'm sure that even the hint of such a crime brings many people's blood to a boil. Crimes against children are much harder to understand then crimes against adults where at least, you think, they can maybe defend themselves.

[Pat]

I can understand that, and, that is one reason I'm sure that even the hint of such a crime brings many people's blood to a boil. Crimes against children are much harder to understand then crimes against adults where at least, you think, they can maybe defend themselves.
Those that commit crimes against children should be eliminated from society.
In the case of molestation or physical abuse it should be permanent.

[steamedheat]

I don't agree with the death penalty period - mostly because of the inequities and the fact that innocent people have been executed.

Inequities? You mean when the murderer takes a life and doesn't have to give his?

And I want the law so you have to know he is guilty. You have the proof. Because no proof, no warrant and no arrest. The defendent can introduce any evidence he choses without restrictions by the courts. Many new types of criminality are available to make sure. ie. dna




I especially don't agree with it when it's not for a crime that involved loss of a life.

Victims of rape, torture and molestation have ruined lives. They can't have healthy relationships, they suffer, they have nightmares, PTSD, dissassociation, and other mental problems. Many end up committing suicide. That isn't life. So I have no pity for these offenders. IMO

[Lykaios]

Inequities? You mean when the murderer takes a life and doesn't have to give his?

And I want the law so you have to know he is guilty. You have the proof. Because no proof, no warrant and no arrest. The defendent can introduce any evidence he choses without restrictions by the courts. Many new types of criminality are available to make sure. ie. dna


No one decides on the death penalty without feeling sure the person is guilty. They don't decide, well...he might be...he probably is...he looks like a criminal...so...lets execute him. They often feel pretty sure. But they've been wrong enought time - evidence can be mishandled, even DNA isn't foolproof.

As far as inequities: there is evidence that poor people and racial minorities are more likely to get their cases remanded to the death penalty phase for the same crime, then white people or rich people who can afford a hot shot lawyer (think OJ).


Victims of rape, torture and molestation have ruined lives. They can't have healthy relationships, they suffer, they have nightmares, PTSD, dissassociation, and other mental problems. Many end up committing suicide. That isn't life. So I have no pity for these offenders. IMO

But they are alive. They have their lives. They have a chance of trying to do something to move forward. That doesn't give them the right to ask more of the justice system then was taken from them. Life in prison ain't no picnic (and, my feeling is - life should mean life). It should be justice not vengeance.

[steamedheat]

I can understand that, and, that is one reason I'm sure that even the hint of such a crime brings many people's blood to a boil. Crimes against children are much harder to understand then crimes against adults where at least, you think, they can maybe defend themselves.

I am all in favor of non-emotional logical discussion. Better than having a current case in front of us. I didn't arrive at my conclusions emotionally, I have studied the issue looking for the best way to handle a bad situation.

If you truely want to eradicate rape and child molestation, you have to go for tuff means to end it. The penalty has to be so severe the acts do not occur. Spanking hands and sending these molesters back out into society is asking them to molest again. There has to be "0" redcidivism rate. You have to go back in the molesters history and see if there are any predators we are missing. Because they are out there in some little kids pants making more victim-predators. I believe America wants to end these crimes, they just have not have the guts to take it to the limit and do what has to be done.

[Lykaios]

I am all in favor of non-emotional logical discussion. Better than having a current case in front of us. I didn't arrive at my conclusions emotionally, I have studied the issue looking for the best way to handle a bad situation.

If you truely want to eradicate rape and child molestation, you have to go for tuff means to end it. The penalty has to be so severe the acts do not occur. Spanking hands and sending these molesters back out into society is asking them to molest again. There has to be "0" redcidivism rate. You have to go back in the molesters history and see if there are any predators we are missing. Because they are out there in some little kids pants making more victim-predators. I believe America wants to end these crimes, they just have not have the guts to take it to the limit and do what has to be done.


I see what you are saying but I don't think it's that simple.

The first major issue, is being sure that the person is guilty of the crime - and that is where I have a problem.

Severe penalties and zero tolerance tend to round up innocent people as well as guilty ones particularly with these types of crimes. Secondly I'm not sure what you mean if there will be zero recidivism. There will be if they are killed of course. But that means applying the death penalty to crimes that are relatively innocuous such as statuatory rape or fondling an underage child as well as to child rapists and killers, and violent rape.

I'm not sure harsh penalties would give you the answer you want. Many crimes are committed without regard for penalties until afterwards.

[steamedheat]

No one decides on the death penalty without feeling sure the person is guilty. They don't decide, well...he might be...he probably is...he looks like a criminal...so...lets execute him. They often feel pretty sure. But they've been wrong enought time - evidence can be mishandled, even DNA isn't foolproof.

Like I say, if the law is conducted as it should be, the evidence is already there before you get a judge to issue a warrant and make an arrest. Probable cause has to be conducted properly. Plea-bargaining should not be allowed. You either have the evidence or you don't, and you let your suspect remain free until you do.

We have a bigger population now, and some standard needs to be set so that as population reachs a certain size, more court houses are built and more judges are admitted to the bench. Sixty days should be the max time to hold any suspect behind bars.


As far as inequities: there is evidence that poor people and racial minorities are more likely to get their cases remanded to the death penalty phase for the same crime, then white people or rich people who can afford a hot shot lawyer (think OJ).

A hot-shot lawyer should not make a difference in any of the cases I recommend for the death sentence. Both sides can produce any evidence they chose.


But they are alive. They have their lives. They have a chance of trying to do something to move forward. That doesn't give them the right to ask more of the justice system then was taken from them. Life in prison ain't no picnic (and, my feeling is - life should mean life). It should be justice not vengeance.

I disagee here again. The victim didn't have a chance. I see no vengence. I see society tying to stop heineous crimes from occurring by using kid glove punishments. Even a death penalty is not high enough to stop these murderers, torturers, rapists & child molesters.

I want to the guilty to be torturered one year for each victim they have committed, and then immediately executed on the next day. The body incinderated, and dropped in the prison trash can without burial. That is what should occur with the scum of the earth.

Being tortured each day is no picnic either. Why should the maximum a muderer get for taking the life of a person who wanted to live and have a full life, just his execution? That is not enough, the scale is not balanced, and hence, torture will balance the scale.

[Lykaios]

Life in jail is hardly a "kid glove" punishment.

As far as torture etc - that isn't justice. That's punishment. The two aren't the same.

The other problem is that, like so many idealized systems - it may work in theory but not when slapped upside the head by real life situations where guilt and innocence are not so clear and mitigating circumstances may further cloud judgement. Focusing on "probable cause" isn't enough.

[Lykaios]

Being tortured each day is no picnic either. Why should the maximum a muderer get for taking the life of a person who wanted to live and have a full life, just his execution? That is not enough, the scale is not balanced, and hence, torture will balance the scale.

It's a life for a life - anything more is retribution. I don't agree with that concept of "justice".

[steamedheat]

I see what you are saying but I don't think it's that simple.

The first major issue, is being sure that the person is guilty of the crime - and that is where I have a problem.

Severe penalties and zero tolerance tend to round up innocent people as well as guilty ones particularly with these types of crimes. Secondly I'm not sure what you mean if there will be zero recidivism. There will be if they are killed of course. But that means applying the death penalty to crimes that are relatively innocuous such as statuatory rape or fondling an underage child as well as to child rapists and killers, and violent rape.

I'm not sure harsh penalties would give you the answer you want. Many crimes are committed without regard for penalties until afterwards.

I am willing to give it a try!! You want to see child molestation & rape take a 180, just put the death penalty & torture out there. People will start using their brains and finding other ways to occupy their time.

I have often thought that the best way to end accidents that cause deaths, is to add the death penalty if you accidently take anothers life. I think it would make people super cautious. DUI would drop, industrial accidents, car accidents, etc. People would be more aware of their actions. But then, I don't see people going for that idea. It might end sporting events.

[steamedheat]

Life in jail is hardly a "kid glove" punishment.

As far as torture etc - that isn't justice. That's punishment. The two aren't the same.

The other problem is that, like so many idealized systems - it may work in theory but not when slapped upside the head by real life situations where guilt and innocence are not so clear and mitigating circumstances may further cloud judgement. Focusing on "probable cause" isn't enough.

If you haven't got probable cause, you haven't got the evidence, you don't get the warrant from the judge to make the arrest. Make these police accountable for their actions as the guardians of law. No more pleabaragins to cop a sentence, bs. He may or maynot be guilty, but until you can prove it, stick it in the cold case file and move onto a case you can prove.

[Lykaios]

I am willing to give it a try!! You want to see child molestation & rape take a 180, just put the death penalty & torture out there. People will start using their brains and finding other ways to occupy their time.


I don't think brains are involved in those activities at all....

But here's another thought. It just might make it harder to catch them. As I pointed out most often the child molester is a family member. How many children would be willing to send Daddy to death? Seriously - no matter how horrible - he's still "Daddy". What will it do to the child to know he killed his father (or uncle or whomever)? The end result could be to drive the crime underground and behind closed doors.


I have often thought that the best way to end accidents that cause deaths, is to add the death penalty if you accidently take anothers life. I think it would make people super cautious. DUI would drop, industrial accidents, car accidents, etc. People would be more aware of their actions. But then, I don't see people going for that idea. It might end sporting events.


It wouldn't make a damn bit of difference in accidents because for the most part they are accidents - unintentional - sometimes the result of plain bad luck. It certainly wouldn't make a difference in DUI's becuase those people are not in control of their behavior - they don't think about consequences because they are under the control of their addiction and the death penalty is not going to change that except to kill that particular drunk.

Yer way to happy with the throwing in the death penalty here.... :huh:

[ROdger Right]

Inequities? You mean when the murderer takes a life and doesn't have to give his?

And I want the law so you have to know he is guilty. You have the proof. Because no proof, no warrant and no arrest. The defendent can introduce any evidence he choses without restrictions by the courts. Many new types of criminality are available to make sure. ie. dna




Victims of rape, torture and molestation have ruined lives. They can't have healthy relationships, they suffer, they have nightmares, PTSD, dissassociation, and other mental problems. Many end up committing suicide. That isn't life. So I have no pity for these offenders. IMO

Rape should never be on that list because of a bunch of low bitches who lie about it. Its the most fabricated crime in America.

They dont have ruined lives, go to a martial arts class and get over it.

The ones who commit suicide probably talked about it and made it worse.

[ROdger Right]

You know if murder isn't the oldest crime in the book id be surprized.

[Lykaios]

Rape should never be on that list because of a bunch of low bitches who lie about it. Its the most fabricated crime in America.

They dont have ruined lives, go to a martial arts class and get over it.

The ones who commit suicide probably talked about it and made it worse.


Rodger, simmer down.

Just because she wouldn't kiss you is no reason to get your knickers in a twist.

[steamedheat]

It's a life for a life - anything more is retribution. I don't agree with that concept of "justice".

Justice is to be balanced by the scales.

1.One the one scale you have the criminal. He doesn't hold his own life in high esteem and knows he may lose his life if caught committing a crime. He doesn't care, he will risk his life, he gives up all future life to do his act. He thinks his life is "0".

2.One the other scale the victim wants to live a long full life, and have all the things that happy people have. The last thing they want to do is die. They care about their life, and do not commit acts that would jeaprodize.

The scales are not balanced when one wants to live, and the other doesn't care if they die. To balance the scale something has to be added to #1 that is more than his life.

In the OJ case for example, the family went after his riches to balance the scale. Others might sue the Corporation responsible. ie airline, pharmacy, etc. That is how justice balances the scale.

So in those criminal cases, I feel torture followed by death is necessary to balance the scales for the victim. IMO

[Lykaios]

Given by how hard they fight the death penalty through appeals, I think it's fair to say most DON'T want to die and thus DO care if they die.

[Pat]

Rodger, simmer down.

Just because she wouldn't kiss you is no reason to get your knickers in a twist.
Bwaaahahaaa

[steamedheat]

Rape should never be on that list because of a bunch of low bitches who lie about it. Its the most fabricated crime in America.

Yeah, we want to make sure those bastards committed the rape, and that the rape is not fabricated. The same goes for men who are raped by men and women. You need solid evidence because we are talking a death sentence here.

They dont have ruined lives, go to a martial arts class and get over it.

They don't have ruined lifes? I disagree.

The ones who commit suicide probably talked about it and made it worse.

So not talking about it would make the victim feel better? I disagree.

[steamedheat]

Given by how hard they fight the death penalty through appeals, I think it's fair to say most DON'T want to die and thus DO care if they die.

I guess they get a real good impression about what life is all about, once confined. And they are going to get an experience that their victim had eventually.

And by the way, those crimes I listed should be federal crimes, and all these types of criminals should be sentenced in the same federal courtroom, and housed at the same federal prison. The North pole comes to mind.

[ROdger Right]

Yeah, we want to make sure those bastards committed the rape, and that the rape is not fabricated. The same goes for men who are raped by men and women. You need solid evidence because we are talking a death sentence here.



They don't have ruined lifes? I disagree.



So not talking about it would make the victim feel better? I disagree.


The moment people like shrinks or whatever else they use, ask how a soldier who suffers from ptsd how he feels the suicides sky rocket. There are ways to do it but there is science behind what I say too.

Actions matter, words for the most part don't. A way for a rape victim to recover is to regain confidence and a simple way of doing that is martial arts. You can think about how you'd fight off the next one but until you act and know you can everything that person thinks does them no good.

[ROdger Right]

Justice is to be balanced by the scales.

1.One the one scale you have the criminal. He doesn't hold his own life in high esteem and knows he may lose his life if caught committing a crime. He doesn't care, he will risk his life, he gives up all future life to do his act. He thinks his life is "0".

2.One the other scale the victim wants to live a long full life, and have all the things that happy people have. The last thing they want to do is die. They care about their life, and do not commit acts that would jeaprodize.

The scales are not balanced when one wants to live, and the other doesn't care if they die. To balance the scale something has to be added to #1 that is more than his life.

In the OJ case for example, the family went after his riches to balance the scale. Others might sue the Corporation responsible. ie airline, pharmacy, etc. That is how justice balances the scale.

So in those criminal cases, I feel torture followed by death is necessary to balance the scales for the victim. IMO

If person lives a high risk life style should tell you that he would do more in order to protect his life than a person who merely works a 9-5

[ROdger Right]

If person lives a high risk life style should tell you that he would do more in order to protect his life than a person who merely works a 9-5

For my philophsy on crime is if you can retire from a single transaction then it might be worth the gamble.

[Pat]

For my philophsy on crime is if you can retire from a single transaction then it might be worth the gamble.
Would you consider life in a prison a retirement plan?
You get 3 hots, a cot and free medical care.

[ROdger Right]

Would you consider life in a prison a retirement plan?
You get 3 hots, a cot and free medical care.

Indeed I would consider that a retirement