Anti-Abortion

[Moby]

I can understand people having issues with abortion. When I was faced with a situation 27 years ago the mother and I decided to not go that route. She had the support of her mother, my family and me. If her mother was not the run of her house her father and brothers who went ahead and made her life very difficult would probably have made things much worse for her although I don't think they would have beaten her.

What about the families that will beat the pregnant women? What about the abusive husbands, boy friends and rapists?

If you're against abortion in all forms, what proposals so you make to support these brave women that will give birth and try to raise their children by themselves through abusive situations?

Remember, the good book says that we are our brother's keeper so don't try to pass it off as it's not your responsibility.

[docholly]

100% pro choice. Good that people have a support system and they can choose to keep. Unfortunately there are untold 1000's that do not. and in some cases Sex Ed is not taught at home or at school. So it's not like its something we are born with, like breathing. Unless someone steps up (should be the parents but in 9 out of 10 times it isn't) and tells guys YOU must wear a condom and tells girls, Do NOT give in to unprotected sex, they how can they know??

What is the difference in going to a clinic and terminating or having the father/bf/brother/husband beating them so they miscarry?

I was a single parent to both my boys. The older one's dad wanted nothing to do with him, only saw him 1 time when he was 6 weeks old. But I opted to keep him. 12 years later I had a 2nd one, by MY choice. His father is very active in his life. In both cases I'd been in a monogamous stable relationship with the father for over 5 years. However had i found myself in a situation that i wasn't able to handle, I was always thankful Roe V. Wade was there to back me up.

Sorry was rambling..

[kres24GT]

Abortion is a good thing. I am sick of people having kids they can't afford to have then milking the taxpayers to help raise them. If you are on any kind of government assistance you should have forced abortion if knocked up.

[Bill]

Our society gives so little support to parents it's like a cruel joke.

Everything is designed to take money from parents, nothing is designed to help them.

The lip service to parenthood has always appalled me.

[kres24GT]

Our society gives so little support to parents it's like a cruel joke.

Everything is designed to take money from parents, nothing is designed to help them.

The lip service to parenthood has always appalled me.


I really hope this is sarcastic.

[Linkster]

Abortion is a womans choice and decision - no man should ever be involved in that process without permission from the woman - ever! Anyone who thinks that they should is only involved with their thought that a woman is subservient to a man

[kres24GT]

Abortion is a womans choice and decision - no man should ever be involved in that process without permission from the woman - ever! Anyone who thinks that they should is only involved with their thought that a woman is subservient to a man

Or that they are equal. The woman knows the consequences when she spreads her legs. Is it fair that it's her body that goes through child rearing process? Not really, but she knows this is the case. The pile of cells, fetus, whatever belongs to the man as well. We could argue all day on the level of input that is valid from the man or woman, but to take it your extreme position is ridiculous in my opinion.

[Moby]

This thread, like most that are about a an emotional issue has failed. :(

I'm not trying to find people's opinions on the issue. What I'm asking is for realistic thought on the fallout of being pro or anti abortion.

Let me try again. If you are against abortion then what do you propose for dealing with the fallout and there is fallout from it? If you are for abortion then what about the fallout on the other side?

[kres24GT]

This thread, like most that are about a an emotional issue has failed. :(

I'm not trying to find people's opinions on the issue. What I'm asking is for realistic thought on the fallout of being pro or anti abortion.

Let me try again. If you are against abortion then what do you propose for dealing with the fallout and there is fallout from it? If you are for abortion then what about the fallout on the other side?

What is the fallout? Abortion has no negatives in my opinion.

[Linkster]

SM - my point is that it is an issue that men shouldnt even be involved in talking about - since when do you as a man decide one way or the other what another human being does or doesnt do to their body - and dont give me the BS that kres is feeding about the sperm and the mans part in conception - that is not an issue other than in some mens minds as an attachment mental issue

[kres24GT]

SM - my point is that it is an issue that men shouldnt even be involved in talking about - since when do you as a man decide one way or the other what another human being does or doesnt do to their body - and dont give me the BS that kres is feeding about the sperm and the mans part in conception - that is not an issue other than in some mens minds as an attachment mental issue


LMAO @ calling it BS. The man and woman make a choice to do the nasty, something is created as a result. It;s not hard here. You want to argue that because a woman carries the pile of cells she has more say, fine, you can definitely to make that argument, but to say a man has no place in these decision is just stupid.

If you and I buy a car together and we agree to keep the car in my garage, that doesn't make the car mine and that I can do whatever I want with it without consulting you.

[Betty Blowtorch]

If you and I buy a car together and we agree to keep the car
in my garage, that doesn't make the car mine and that I can do
whatever I want with it without consulting you.
The "car-in-the-garage" is a funny analogy, but it's not
really the same thing, unless you know someone who has
a "magical garage" that can transform a small toy car into
a full-size, two-ton SUV in only 9 months.

[kres24GT]

The "car-in-the-garage" is a funny analogy, but it's not
really the same thing, unless you know someone who has
a "magical garage" that can transform a small toy car into
a full-size, two-ton SUV in only 9 months.


Ok, say it's a car that needs work. I do all the work in restoring it. Does that give me more say in what we do with the car? Yes. Does it make the car mine 100%? No.

Personally I'd like the decision to be up to whoever will abort the child, but I am not going to be irrational in forcing that view on everyone else.

[Betty Blowtorch]

Ok, say it's a car that needs work. I do all the work in restoring it.
Does that give me more say in what we do with the car? Yes.
Does it make the car mine 100%? No.
Ummm, I think the car analogy is carrying the debate
a little far afield. But I do like the idea that women
have "magical garages" inside their bodies.

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/2756/pregnantwomansq7.jpg

All a guy has to do is park a single drop of his sperm
inside a woman's "magical garage" which does all the
hard work of creating a fully-formed baby in 9 months.

The only "hard work" the guy has to do is to make
the initial sperm deposit.

[kres24GT]

Ummm, I think the car analogy is carrying the debate
a little far afield. But I do like the idea that women
have "magical garages" inside their bodies.

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/2756/pregnantwomansq7.jpg

All a guy has to do is park a single drop of his sperm
inside a woman's "magical garage" which does all the
hard work of creating a fully-formed baby in 9 months.

The only "hard work" the guy has to do is to make
the initial sperm deposit.


As much as you would like to relieve the man of any responsibility it just isn't the case. The man is financially and legally obligated for the car, he should get a say. Both the man and woman make a decision to the deed, if the deed results in a child, the man is responsible for the little bastard. Yes it's the woman's body, yes she has to carry the fucker. This definitely gives her plenty of leverage when the topic of abortion comes up. One could argue it gives her final say. However to say it's 100% her decision and the man's opinion shouldn't matter at all is too far and ridiculous in my opinion.

Again, hwo much of a say is debateable.

Also, child birth is not magic. Maybe you should talk to your parents.

[Linkster]

More importantly - I base my opinions on the fact that a very large percentage of abortion is done based on non-wanting of the pregnancy in the first place - either accidently or just ignorant of birth control. Society may say that the man has some responsibility (which again unless some contract has been signed prior to this is again total BS) and therefore must help in the choice of the abortion - again I say BS - the woman has the ultimate choice whether to have sex or not (Im not talking rape here) - and knows the exact consequences if she is fertile - while Im not saying its her total responsibility for birth control, she better have a good idea of what is being used - or request something as she has the ultimate burden.

The recent Politically Correct BS of the man having some say in the womans health and well-being is total crap - and being generated to create that man-dominated fear society that runs through much of the PC crowd

So - kres - where I come from the woman has the ultimate choice to do the "nasty" - not a mutual choice - and I think if you look at the law she also has the right to say no - which I dont believe there is any law stating a man can say "no"

[kres24GT]

More importantly - I base my opinions on the fact that a very large percentage of abortion is done based on non-wanting of the pregnancy in the first place - either accidently or just ignorant of birth control. Society may say that the man has some responsibility (which again unless some contract has been signed prior to this is again total BS) and therefore must help in the choice of the abortion - again I say BS - the woman has the ultimate choice whether to have sex or not (Im not talking rape here) - and knows the exact consequences if she is fertile - while Im not saying its her total responsibility for birth control, she better have a good idea of what is being used - or request something as she has the ultimate burden.

The recent Politically Correct BS of the man having some say in the womans health and well-being is total crap - and being generated to create that man-dominated fear society that runs through much of the PC crowd

So - kres - where I come from the woman has the ultimate choice to do the "nasty" - not a mutual choice - and I think if you look at the law she also has the right to say no - which I dont believe there is any law stating a man can say "no"


The man and the women make the decision to do the nasty, they are both responsible for the outcome. Both know the possibilities and agree to take the risk with consent.

I can respect your opinion more if you think the man has no legal or financial obligations to the potential child, however I still disagree. A woman doesn't make a child by herself, a man helps. That counts for something.

[Linkster]

The man and the women make the decision to do the nasty, they are both responsible for the outcome. Both know the possibilities and agree to take the risk with consent.

I can respect your opinion more if you think the man has no legal or financial obligations to the potential child, however I still disagree. A woman doesn't make a child by herself, a man helps. That counts for something.

Again - thats total BS - the woman makes the child by herself - all the man does is donate a starter - same as if she went to a clinic/bank and got the starter from a test tube.

The decision to do the nasty - by law - is the womans choice - no matter what you think - if she says no and you do it anyway - you try telling the cops that :) (except in a few backwards states where a man can still rape his wife legally)

The risk and consent is hers - and she is responsible to make sure that either party is using something if she doesnt want to be pregnant
Otherwise you are basically stating that you are in control or even a part of that decision which is not a mans to make

[kres24GT]

Again - thats total BS - the woman makes the child by herself - all the man does is donate a starter - same as if she went to a clinic/bank and got the starter from a test tube.

The decision to do the nasty - by law - is the womans choice - no matter what you think - if she says no and you do it anyway - you try telling the cops that :) (except in a few backwards states where a man can still rape his wife legally)

The risk and consent is hers - and she is responsible to make sure that either party is using something if she doesnt want to be pregnant
Otherwise you are basically stating that you are in control or even a part of that decision which is not a mans to make


I disagree totally, but this is at least a respectable opinion as opposed to it's the womens choice but the man has to pay the price. Do you have kids? I have a hard time believing anyone who has kids can look at themselves as just a starter to their child.

[Betty Blowtorch]

As much as you would like to relieve the man of any responsibility
it just isn't the case. The man is financially and legally obligated
for the car, he should get a say. Both the man and woman make
a decision to the deed, if the deed results in a child, the man is
responsible for the little bastard.
Actually I don't recall saying anything about legal or financial
responsibility. You were talking about cars and garages, and
I was playing along.

Anyway, bottom line:

If a woman carries a fetus to full term, and a live baby emerges
from her woom, the man has legal and financial responsibility.

If the fetus is aborted and no living child is created, the man
has no legal or financial responsibility.

Whew!!! Thank god for Roe v. Wade!!

[kres24GT]

.............

[kres24GT]

Actually I don't recall saying anything about legal or financial
responsibility. You were talking about cars and garages, and
I was playing along.

Anyway, bottom line:

If a woman carries a fetus to full term, and a live baby emerges
from her woom, the man has legal and financial responsibility.

If the fetus is aborted and no living child is created, the man
has no legal or financial responsibility.

Whew!!! Thank god for Roe v. Wade!!

Sounds like you agree with me. I really don't care about Roe v. Wade, personally I disagree with the ruling but I love abortion so I can't be too upset.

[Linkster]

I disagree totally, but this is at least a respectable opinion as opposed to it's the womens choice but the man has to pay the price. Do you have kids? I have a hard time believing anyone who has kids can look at themselves as just a starter to their child.

My kids are grown and gone ages ago - yeah Im an old man - but my opinion I guess is based on growing up in the starting times of the womens lib movement - listening to women back then - and totally disregarding what the government wanted women to think

I guess one other way of looking at it would be to take the advent of something like cancer in a persons life - my opinion would be that each individual (whether in a relationship or not) has their own individual responsibility and freedom to make the choice to either treat it or if they so choose - die. I get the feeling that you would argue that a husband could legally argue in court that his wife cant make that choice? Or getting back to our topic - would you then with your opinion - think that a husband could get an injunction if he disagreed with his wife's choice to get an abortion? I certainly dont want anyone else making those types of decisions for me, let alone a government.

[Moby]

1. I think some limits need to be set on when an abortion can occur. At 8 months a baby is fully developed even though it's living off the mother and I think that's too late for a legal abortion.

2. If abortion is made illegal then we need an effective preventive program which includes sex education and affordable birth control. We also need a support system for these woman having babies and the babies once they pop out.

The USA has the 2nd rate of unwed teenage pregnancy in the World and the 2nd highest rate of rape.

You need a support system for allowing abortion and also one for not allowing it.

[kres24GT]

My kids are grown and gone ages ago - yeah Im an old man - but my opinion I guess is based on growing up in the starting times of the womens lib movement - listening to women back then - and totally disregarding what the government wanted women to think

I guess one other way of looking at it would be to take the advent of something like cancer in a persons life - my opinion would be that each individual (whether in a relationship or not) has their own individual responsibility and freedom to make the choice to either treat it or if they so choose - die. I get the feeling that you would argue that a husband could legally argue in court that his wife cant make that choice? Or getting back to our topic - would you then with your opinion - think that a husband could get an injunction if he disagreed with his wife's choice to get an abortion? I certainly dont want anyone else making those types of decisions for me, let alone a government.


I am no fan of government, and am not even asking for their interjection. I just think its foolish to beleive that way, not saying it should be law.

[disrupter]

God &/or biology gave women choice,

let no man or woman use the law to rape & invade her body.

Religion can not be the implement of legalized rape of women.

It's her uterus, stay out of it, unless she invites you there.

[Mr. Blue]

Abortion has always been an interesting topic to me because I don't entirely agree with either side of the issue.

I'm not so much pro-choice or pro-life, but I'm sincerely and totally pro-contraceptive. It's ludicrous to me that there's been so many abortions since Row vs. Wade. There's one thing to be pro-choice, but I'm also anti-stupid.

First and foremost as a country we should devote ourselves to teaching people an understanding of the human body. I've been very sexually active since I turned 17 years old. No matter how much I've enjoyed sex over the years, and I have enjoyed it a lot, lol, I was always conscious of my responsibilities to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.

Responsibility, now there's an interesting concept that often gets overlooked. Take responsibility for what you do, the causes, the effects, and be a responsible adult. While people always point out the cases of rape, incest, medical conditions, etc, they never address how many people are just too damn stupid to prevent a pregnancy in the first place and use abortion as a "contraceptive" device.

Responsibility of owning up to a child that you've helped create. How many abortions could be prevented if men just owned up and started acting like a man? Acting like a man? It seems like a concept lost on most people today, but always looking for the easy way out, the silver bullet that expunges the records in one quick medical procedure. Trust me, we don't limit this to abortion, we've become a nation that always takes the easy way out, whether it's diet pills for the fatties, prozac for the "depressed", or any other pill to cure your problem in an instant. Life isn't always about easy fixes.

Abortion is a womans choice and decision - no man should ever be involved in that process without permission from the woman - ever! Anyone who thinks that they should is only involved with their thought that a woman is subservient to a man

While normally I agree with you Linkster...that's just a fine bit of rubbish. Even though most women would pat you on the back and agree wholeheartedly with you...I wonder if they realized you just gave men the ultimate cop out for not taking responsibility for their actions.

Removing men from the process removes them from responsibility. It has nothing to do with making a woman subservient, it has everything to do with acknowledging that the problem of abortion is caused by both women and men.

Ultimately, I'm still pro-choice, because the government shouldn't be involved...but it saddens me that we're always promoting the easy way out for every problem that comes our way.