Thomas Jefferson

[MichMike]

"Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise."


Hardly a flat tax advocate.

The founding fathers favored progressive taxation.

[The_Limit]

Well, duh.

[MichMike]

Well, duh.


Do the Republican's - Joe the Plumber - agree with the founding fathers?

[kres24GT]

We should just end all taxes and borrow it all from the Chinese.

[The_Limit]

We should just end all taxes and borrow it all for the Chinese.


Huh?

For or from, the Chinese?

[Cookie]

"Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise."


Hardly a flat tax advocate.

The founding fathers favored progressive taxation.

Seems he was talking about property taxes, which aren't progressive, necessarily, if one lives in California. Some were fortunate enough to get in under prop 13, so you have a homeowner paying $500 a year, while his neighbor is paying $5000. It's one of the reasons the state is so fiscally screwed up today.
________
Iolite Vaporizer (http://iolitevaporizer.net/)

[MichMike]

We should just end all taxes and borrow it all from the Chinese.


So you don't agree with Jefferson or Franklin?

[kres24GT]

So you don't agree with Jefferson or Franklin?


I support a regressive tax. The less you make, the more you pay percentage wise. That's just me though.

[Socialist_Revolution]

I support a regressive tax. The less you make, the more you pay percentage wise. That's just me though.
I am not sure I am following your logic at all on this...you are saying you believe someone that makes 20 grand a year should pay MORE in taxes that say someone who makes 150 k a year? Kinda makes sense but kinda doesnt, I know the more you pay out the more you get back.

[MichMike]

I support a regressive tax. The less you make, the more you pay percentage wise. That's just me though.


So you evidently feel taxes at some level are necessary. OK.

Just to make sure I understand, in your world, somebody with $50,000 worth of property would pay - hypothetically - 40% of their income for protection of said property (military let's say) and somebody with $2 billion worth of property would pay a smaller percentage (say 25%) for the same protection?

How do you feel this would improve country? Has it been tried elsewhere?

[kres24GT]

So you evidently feel taxes at some level are necessary. OK.

Just to make sure I understand, in your world, somebody with $50,000 worth of property would pay - hypothetically - 40% of their income for protection of said property (military let's say) and somebody with $2 billion worth of property would pay a smaller percentage (say 25%) for the same protection?

How do you feel this would improve country? Has it been tried elsewhere?

The problem with government spending is there is no accountability. A small percentage of the population pay too much of the burden, it gives politicians free reign to spend spend spend.

If we pass a balanced budget amendment and repressively tax Americans to pay for all spending, it will force Americans to more closely keep an eye on what the politicians are doing.

Tens of millions of Americans want Bigger Government, hardly any of them want to pay for it.

[MichMike]

The problem with government spending is there is no accountability. A small percentage of the population pay too much of the burden, it gives politicians free reign to spend spend spend.

If we pass a balanced budget amendment and repressively tax Americans to pay for all spending, it will force Americans to more closely keep an eye on what the politicians are doing.

Tens of millions of Americans want Bigger Government, hardly any of them want to pay for it.

Have you considered the impact income disparity has had on almost all of our financial panics and depressions over the last 200 years?

In the event of financial crisis, what happens to your balanced budget amendment? Does a balanced budget amendment stop tax increases (hint: no)....almost all economists have dismissed this is crazy.

Hardly any of them? In fact, almost all American's pay taxes.

The good news is that, if enough people want a regressive tax system (unlike most of the founding fathers), you can make it happen. Go for it.

[kres24GT]

Have you considered the impact income disparity has had on almost all of our financial panics and depressions over the last 200 years?

In the event of financial crisis, what happens to your balanced budget amendment? Does a balanced budget amendment stop tax increases (hint: no)....almost all economists have dismissed this is crazy.

Hardly any of them? In fact, almost all American's pay taxes.

The good news is that, if enough people want a regressive tax system (unlike most of the founding fathers), you can make it happen. Go for it.

Not one thing you said in retort made any sense to what I said. When you cover what i said, I will respond.

[MichMike]

Not one thing you said in retort made any sense to what I said. When you cover what i said, I will respond.

Actually I addressed each concern directly, but perhaps you are not following:

A balanced budget amendment (as unrealistic as that is during times of crisis), will not stop spending...but may increase it. The reason, it doesn't limit tax increases. Pay-go legislation has been more effective in the past and supported by right and left. Balanced budget amendments focuse on the deficit, not spending. I can't make that more direct or simple.

Regressive taxation will only cripple the middle and lower class, cutting off demand for the products the rich (and they will be rich for a while under your plan) make...this has led to many a financial disaster. The subsequent pain, suffering and death would quickly put an end to such a crazy policy. Moreover, there is no evidence that such a taxation system has ever worked while the top 5 most productive decades the world has ever experienced (all in the U.S) came under a progressive taxation system.

[kres24GT]

Actually I addressed each concern directly, but perhaps you are not following:

A balanced budget amendment (as unrealistic as that is during times of crisis), will not stop spending...but may increase it. The reason, it doesn't limit tax increases. Pay-go legislation has been more effective in the past and supported by right and left. It focuses on the deficit, not spending. I can't make that more direct or simple.

Regressive taxation will only cripple the middle and lower class, cutting off demand for the products the rich (and they will be rich for a while under your plan) make...this has led to many a financial disaster. The subsequent pain, suffering and death would quickly put an end to such a crazy policy. Moreover, there is no evidence that such a taxation system has ever worked while the top 5 most productive decades the world has ever experienced (all in the U.S) came under a progressive taxation system.


Not unrealistic at all, when we need bigger government,w e all pitch in and pay for it, simple as that. If we can't pay for ti we take our lumps and learn our lessons.

A regressive tax does just the opposite, it ensures reckless spending is curbed and taxes remain low.

[MichMike]

Not unrealistic at all, when we need bigger government,w e all pitch in and pay for it, simple as that. If we can't pay for ti we take our lumps and learn our lessons.

A regressive tax does just the opposite, it ensures reckless spending is curbed and taxes remain low.

LOL. This is what Hoover did. He raised taxes at the same time he increased government support for the poor as the economy tanked. The result? Deflation. Look that up. People like you CAUSED the great depression.

So during World War II, you are saying we should have increased taxes by 500% or more (that is the amount of spending the government embarked on to pay for war material) as opposed to what actually happened...the government spent like crazy, pouring money and jobs into the private sector, taxes were NOT raised, we DID go into temporary debt, and the economy was kick-started like never before - and kept humming for three decades.

You do realize the most productive century any society has ever enjoyed included forms of progressive taxes?

[CosmicRocker]

LOL. This is what Hoover did. He raised taxes at the same time he increased government support for the poor as the economy tanked. The result? Deflation. Look that up. People like you CAUSED the great depression.

So during World War II, we should have increased taxes by 500% (that is the amout of spending the government embarked on) to pay for services when - instead - the government spent like crazy, the economy was kick-started like never before as taxes stayed even and economy started roaring...leading to growth in the 50s like never before.

You do realize the most productive century any society has ever enjoyed included forms of progressive taxes?
The growth in the 50's was because of the upgrading of our manufacturing abilities from WWII.
Also we were the only world power left with any kind of economy.
Europe and China and Japan were in ruins, the Brits lost their Empire, and were broke.

WWII ended the Great Depression, despite FDR's constant efforts through out the 30's
( G. Depression started in 1929) because of the jobs created to staff the military factories.

Good Point about Hoover. I think you got it.

Don't forget our national debt now though, the interests payment are gonna get worse, we are definately headed for inflation, and the $$ is less in demand than the Euro.

[MichMike]

The growth in the 50's was because of the upgrading of our manufacturing abilities from WWII.
Also we were the only world power left with any kind of economy.
Europe and China and Japan were in ruins, the Brits lost their Empire, and were broke.

WWII ended the Great Depression, despite FDR's constant efforts through out the 30's
( G. Depression started in 1929) because of the jobs created to staff the military factories.

Good Point about Hoover. I think you got it.

Don't forget our national debt now though, the interests payment are gonna get worse, we are definately headed for inflation, and the $$ is less in demand than the Euro.


here is a little link...

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2009020603/fdr-failed-myth


Government spending ended the Great Depression. Some on the right like to disguise this as "the war" and hide what "the war" really was...a massive government program everybody got behind. The growth in the 50s would never have been possible had it not been for the manufacturing boom that occured after the largest government spending program of all time (WWII). Immediately after the war debt as a percent of GDP was MUCH higher than it is now. There is nothing wrong with debt as long as it comes down when the economy starts moving again. The debt we have now is necessery whether the storm and balancing the budget would be a disaster. It will come down..especially with PAYGO back into play.

After Hoover's disaster, GDP growth went up much more than any year under Reagon and unemployment went down EVERY YEAR FDR increased spending and kept taxes low. Only in 1937 did things dip back down. Why? Because he caved to the BALANCED BUDGET folks and raised taxes in an attempt to balance. After this, he start spending more (the war the main reason) and keeping taxes even again....sure enough growth went up and unemployment went down.

Inflation is a concern, but it is controllable. What we DON'T want is deflation...that cycle can be impossible to turn around.

[CosmicRocker]

here is a little link...

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2009020603/fdr-failed-myth


Government spending ended the Great Depression. Some on the right like to disguise this as "the war" and hide what "the war" really was...a massive government program everybody got behind. The growth in the 50s would never have been possible had it not been for the manufacturing boom that occured after the largest government spending program of all time (WWII). Immediately after the war debt as a percent of GDP was MUCH higher than it is now. There is nothing wrong with debt as long as it comes down when the economy starts moving again. The debt we have now is necessery whether the storm and balancing the budget would be a disaster. It will come down..especially with PAYGO back into play.

After Hoover's disaster, GDP growth went up much more than any year under Reagon and unemployment went down EVERY YEAR FDR increased spending and kept taxes low. Only in 1937 did things dip back down. Why? Because he caved to the BALANCED BUDGET folks and raised taxes in an attempt to balance. After this, he start spending more (the war the main reason) and keeping taxes even again....sure enough growth went up and unemployment went down.

Inflation is a concern, but it is controllable. What we DON'T want is deflation...that cycle can be impossible to turn around.
Intersting GDP graphs.

Economics ( and by extension health care) is my weakest subject.
I'm much better in the humanities, and linguistics, even science.

My father lived thru the Great Depression, and FDR, and WWII.

He always told me FDR basically saved the country from utter collapse, but also emphasized that full industrial output didn't really occur till WWII.

I'm wondering if those GDP numbers are from industrial production, or agrarian.

PAYGO - that's the ticket, but it's NOT back in play, nor do i see any indication that the Dem's -
if they continue to hold power after this recession ends will go back into play.

It has to - sooner or later we got to stop adding debt.

Nice work MichMike, appreciate the effort and the links.

[ROdger Right]

Didn't Fdr tax the rich at some thing like 90%? He never saw unemployment fall below 20% Not sure how that fits into what was said above.

Though growth was obviously due to thw war and after it small buissness loans.

[ROdger Right]

When you bring up the founding fathers I find it my duty however they wished to tax, that government was evil although a necessary evil

[MichMike]

Rodger...do you have a point? You seem to be rambling. Is there something the article you don't agree with?

Hint: government spending has gotten us out of many a panic/depression.

[ROdger Right]

Of course FDR has always been known as a friend of the poor but you find just as many peope saying what he did with government spending lenghthened the depressionhowever he made much the porr approved of him.

When you tax the rich so high little happens to imporve the economy. Unless you suddenly get millions of people employed because of a war.

[MichMike]

Of course FDR has always been known as a friend of the poor but you find just as many peope saying what he did with government spending lenghthened the depressionhowever he made much the porr approved of him.

When you tax the rich so high little happens to imporve the economy. Unless you suddenly get millions of people employed because of a war.


I think you need to do some more reading and report back. Again, EVERY year of the guy's presidency, GDP growth was robust and unemployment went down when spending was high and taxes steady. Only when people tried to balance the budget did things go poorly.

Many of the social programs back then are still in place making this dip much less worse.

Again, the war was a large government spending program everybody got behind...more spending. Again, massive spending got us out of the great depression.... if Obama made a mistake it's not spending enough to impact an economy that moves trillions of dollars.

[ROdger Right]

I think you need to do some more reading and report back. Again, EVERY year of the guy's presidency, GDP growth was robust and unemployment went down when spending was high and taxes steady. Only when people tried to balance the budget did things go poorly.

Many of the social programs back then are still in place making this dip much less worse.

Again, the war was a large government spending program everybody got behind...more spending. Again, massive spending got us out of the great depression.... if Obama made a mistake it's not spending enough to impact an economy that moves trillions of dollars.

That spending program also left the dollar as about as valuable as toliet paper.

To call it a spending program when people by the millions died is a shitty thing to do.

[kres24GT]

LOL. This is what Hoover did. He raised taxes at the same time he increased government support for the poor as the economy tanked. The result? Deflation. Look that up. People like you CAUSED the great depression.

So during World War II, you are saying we should have increased taxes by 500% or more (that is the amount of spending the government embarked on to pay for war material) as opposed to what actually happened...the government spent like crazy, pouring money and jobs into the private sector, taxes were NOT raised, we DID go into temporary debt, and the economy was kick-started like never before - and kept humming for three decades.

You do realize the most productive century any society has ever enjoyed included forms of progressive taxes?

You understand our children will pay 80-90% taxes to pay for the government spending we have demanded, correct? Imagine if all Americans had to chip in to pay for Big Government, you think we'd be in Iraq right now? Making Americans pay for Big Government will make the people know what their government is doing. It creates an interested public who watches their politicians like a hawk.

You are under the same brainwashed mantra as usual, "only through government". Government is your answer to every problem, it is always the solution and in your mind nothing cn be achieved without more of it. In this flawed and idiotic mindset you are absolutely right, in reality your way has failed as we have left massive debts for our children to pay.

[Moby]

That spending program also left the dollar as about as valuable as toliet paper.
You mean kind of like during the Bush administration?

[Bill Cosby]

We should just end all taxes and borrow it all from the Chinese.
:lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2:

:thumbsup:

[Bill Cosby]

The problem with government spending is there is no accountability. A small percentage of the population pay too much of the burden, it gives politicians free reign to spend spend spend.

If we pass a balanced budget amendment and repressively tax Americans to pay for all spending, it will force Americans to more closely keep an eye on what the politicians are doing.

Tens of millions of Americans want Bigger Government, hardly any of them want to pay for it.

LOL.............. I love it... So now the guVment force is a good thing.............:lmao2:

Will it be via the barrel of a gun???:hi:

[Bill Cosby]

Actually I addressed each concern directly, but perhaps you are not following:

A balanced budget amendment (as unrealistic as that is during times of crisis), will not stop spending...but may increase it. The reason, it doesn't limit tax increases. Pay-go legislation has been more effective in the past and supported by right and left. Balanced budget amendments focuse on the deficit, not spending. I can't make that more direct or simple.

Regressive taxation will only cripple the middle and lower class, cutting off demand for the products the rich (and they will be rich for a while under your plan) make...this has led to many a financial disaster. The subsequent pain, suffering and death would quickly put an end to such a crazy policy. Moreover, there is no evidence that such a taxation system has ever worked while the top 5 most productive decades the world has ever experienced (all in the U.S) came under a progressive taxation system.

Yep during a crisis, & lord knows there is always a crisis ......... NO money..

Could the usa been in ww2 if they had that?? NOPE!!!!!!

[Bill Cosby]

"Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise."


Hardly a flat tax advocate.

The founding fathers favored progressive taxation.

I believe that progressive is fair............

Reason being the rich (for lack of a better term) benefit more than the poor (for lack of a better term)..............

Who get more from the big bad guVment- the fool in the trailer park trying to get a stop sign on the corner so kids are not ran over or the wallstreet scum rolling in 14% pay increases after ruining the economy & getting bailed out...

Now tax their asses like it was 1960................. Get some of the money back...........

& as far as trickled down???? I don't want the crumbs off their plate... I want a seat @ the table..............:thumbsup:

[kres24GT]

LOL.............. I love it... So now the guVment force is a good thing.............:lmao2:

Will it be via the barrel of a gun???:hi:


Did you read what I wrote? Your comments make no sense in relation to my comments is why i asked.


Classic Bill though, can't argue the point, change the point.

[kres24GT]

It's amazing that so many support leaving massive debts to our children.

[Bill Cosby]

Did you read what I wrote? Your comments make no sense in relation to my comments is why i asked.


Classic Bill though, can't argue the point, change the point.

There is no point to argue.... You advocate against big guVment & them forcing themselves on us & here you are advocating it...... I just thought it a point of interest to point out your hypocrisy...:thumbsup:

You believe force is good when it suites you & bad when it don't... There I saved you the trouble of even replying..... My good deed for the day....;)

:D

[Bill Cosby]

It's amazing that so many support leaving massive debts to our children.

Yea they should of thought about that during the civil war......:disbelief: . & ww2........:lmao2: :lmao2:

:banghead:

[kres24GT]

Yea they should of thought about that during the civil war......:disbelief: . & ww2........:lmao2: :lmao2:

:banghead:

Do you have kids Bill?

[kres24GT]

There is no point to argue.... You advocate against big guVment & them forcing themselves on us & here you are advocating it...... I just thought it a point of interest to point out your hypocrisy...:thumbsup:

You believe force is good when it suites you & bad when it don't... There I saved the trouble of even replying..... My good deed for the day....;)

:D

Where did I favor government forcing anyone to do anything?

[Bill Cosby]

Do you have kids Bill?

Yep...... & believe it or not I was once one myself............:D

[kres24GT]

Yep...... & believe it or not I was once one myself............:D

What will you tell your children about the massive debt you support leaving to them?

[Bill Cosby]

Where did I favor government forcing anyone to do anything?

You wrote it, I high lighted it... I guess you could actually go back & look if you really wanna know....

Hey I understand.......... Forcing ppl for good is different than forcing them for bad..........:lmao2:

& who better than you to distinguish between them.......:thumbsup:

Forcing them to do what you want is a good thing..... Now forcing the 43 million w/out care to have it is an example of a bad thing....... LMAO!!!

:rolleyes:

[kres24GT]

You wrote it, I high lighted it... I guess you could actually go back & look if you really wanna know....

Hey I understand.......... Forcing ppl for good is different than forcing them for bad..........:lmao2:

& who better than you to distinguish between them.......:thumbsup:

Forcing them to do what you want is a good thing..... Now forcing the 43 million w/out care to have it is an example of a bad thing....... LMAO!!!

:rolleyes:


I get it, you do not understand the difference between connotation and denotation. gotcha. You don't understand no one would be actually forced to do anything in what I was talking about, that it was just a figure of speech meaning people would be more inclined to do so. Again, you couldn't confront the point, so you had to change it to something you could.

And yes Bill forcing people to have insurance is a bad thing. Telling someone who is making a personal choice that their choice is illegal is always wrong.

[Bill Cosby]

What will you tell your children about the massive debt you support leaving to them?

Oh I support it now................. lol

Show me were I did that???

Did I vote on it?? NO!!!!

Did they even ask me??? NO!!!

They took my money & gave it to wallstreet & USED IT FOR WARS I DO NOT SUPPORT............... Do you support those wars???

I would tell them I wanted the money to go towards education, roads, & healthcare.................

Then I might even open a big book written by some American nationaist repub telling us what a good thing it was to go into ww2, in debt to save the world again............


AAAhhhh I can almost smell the warm apple pie & hear the flag unfoiling... :lmao2:

[kres24GT]

Oh I support it now................. lol

Show me were I did that???

Did I vote on it?? NO!!!!

Did they even ask me??? NO!!!

They took my money & gave it to wallstreet & USED IT FOR WARS I DO NOT SUPPORT............... Do you support those wars???

I would tell them I wanted the money to go towards education, roads, & healthcare.................

Then I might even open a big book written by some American nationaist repub telling us what a good thing it was to go into ww2, in debt to save the world again............


AAAhhhh I can almost smell the warm apple pie & hear the flag unfoiling... :lmao2:


You absolutely support it. Now can you answer the question?

[Bill Cosby]

I get it, you do not understand the difference between connotation and denotation. gotcha. You don't understand no one would be actually forced to do anything in what I was talking about, that it was just a figure of speech meaning people would be more inclined to do so. Again, you couldn't confront the point, so you had to change it to something you could.

And yes Bill forcing people to have insurance is a bad thing. Telling someone who is making a personal choice that their choice is illegal is always wrong.

A figure of speech.......lol One I think you may avoid in the future......:D

You can excuse it any way that makes you feel better, I don't mind...

As far as your point I don't care... It is always the same big bad guVment, big bad guVment, blah blah blah...........

As a result I rarely bother to read most of it as I have done so more than enough times... As I said I was just pointing out your hypocrisy...

But I read from time to time to see if you have evolved from the one trick pony............ & will continue to do so from time to time...........

[Bill Cosby]

You absolutely support it. Now can you answer the question?

OK then it should be pretty easy to prove..........

I will be back in about an hour or so........... I look forward to reading your evidence against me...

As far as a question?? I don't know nor care what your fucking question is........

You just have evidence ready...:thumbsup:

[kres24GT]

A figure of speech.......lol One I think you may avoid in the future......:D

You can excuse it any way that makes you feel better, I don't mind...

As far as your point I don't care... It is always the same big bad guVment, big bad guVment, blah blah blah...........

As a result I rarely bother to read most of it as I have done so more than enough times... As I said I was just pointing out your hypocrisy...

But I read from time to time to see if you have evolved from the one trick pony............ & will continue to do so from time to time...........


Sorry Bill, you can play dumb all you want, but you aren't that stupid.


Bill we have a fundamental difference in us, you are fine with a corrupt government sold out to big business running the show and dictating how people live their lives. I am not.


Everyone here is a one trick pony Bill.

[kres24GT]

OK then it should be pretty easy to prove..........

I will be back in about an hour or so........... I look forward to reading your evidence against me...

As far as a question?? I don't know nor care what your fucking question is........

You just have evidence ready...:thumbsup:


It's proven in this thread, you support more spending on health care when we are already running trillion dollar deficits. Right there we are done, point proven. And of course you won't answer the question, it would force you to question your loyalty to Big Government.

[Bill Cosby]

It's proven in this thread, you support more spending on health care when we are already running trillion dollar deficits. Right there we are done, point proven. And of course you won't answer the question, it would force you to question your loyalty to Big Government.


So then you must then as well by your support of the military industrial complex...

I have stated repeatedly my position & why I believe it..

I want to cut way back on the military & use that money towards education & heathcare...........

Your insistence to maintain the status quo is more expensive, ineffective & perhaps needlessly cruel............

Your head in the sand approach means that a sick kid goes to the ER for $5,000 as opposed to a clinic for $100............

[Bill Cosby]

Sorry Bill, you can play dumb all you want, but you aren't that stupid.


Bill we have a fundamental difference in us, you are fine with a corrupt government sold out to big business running the show and dictating how people live their lives. I am not.


Everyone here is a one trick pony Bill.

Funny.......... & have stopped beating your wife?? :p

We have our difference my friend but that is not it...

It is not black & white as you state it... It is not agree w/ yo & be against big guVment or disagree w/ you & be for big guVment... There is a great big world outside that little box...

As I told you numerous times already.... They are gonna take our money... I want that money reallocated towards health & education.. I want to take the lions share from the military budget... If that makes me a commie socialist I can live w/ that..........

[Bill Cosby]

You understand our children will pay 80-90% taxes to pay for the government spending we have demanded, correct? Imagine if all Americans had to chip in to pay for Big Government, you think we'd be in Iraq right now? Making Americans pay for Big Government will make the people know what their government is doing. It creates an interested public who watches their politicians like a hawk.

You are under the same brainwashed mantra as usual, "only through government". Government is your answer to every problem, it is always the solution and in your mind nothing cn be achieved without more of it. In this flawed and idiotic mindset you are absolutely right, in reality your way has failed as we have left massive debts for our children to pay.

You avoided addressing Mike's point-question regarding WW2.......... I asked as well............. SO tell us how the big bad guVment was gonna save the world "your way"..................


So during World War II, you are saying we should have increased taxes by 500% or more (that is the amount of spending the government embarked on to pay for war material) as opposed to what actually happened...the government spent like crazy, pouring money and jobs into the private sector, taxes were NOT raised, we DID go into temporary debt, and the economy was kick-started like never before - and kept humming for three decades